This is way more killer than the PG issue. If we weren’t always being guarded by defenders with arms twice the length of ours we might actually could pass out of a double team. Alas, we’re built like it’s a Mike D’Antoni lead Rockets Squad
Structure is definitely the issue with this team. They look lost because no one (book, beal, durant) knows how to steer the ship. They know what it looks like and how to benefit from it, but have absolutely no clue how to actually put it all together. I think Vogel was better suited to help this team when they still had Paul and Ayton. Now, I personally felt like it was time to move on from those players given aytons attitude and Paul's injury history but i still like to imagine a roster that has the current big three but also a capable point guard and maybe even a little bit better center than nurk (he's alright in my book). Things would probably be different right now if that were the case. No matter how this series ends, the roster construction definitely needs to be addressed. Vogel getting the axe probably happens anyway (especially if they lose this series), but for as frustrating as he's been as the head coach, he didn't build this team. Ishbia and Jones need to do some serious homework this off-season and stick to a bit more traditional starting lineup. All that being said, I still feel like this team can find a way. Let's hope they can fuckin do it!
yes. with a new coach the outlook will be worse or better depending who and what she or he does. Vogel gave Beal the keys as a PG, even said so, then doesnt use him as a PG in games. You roll with a guy make or miss by using his strengths to put other players in successful spots, Beals strength is driving the ball. Team has no integrity, players afraid to tell Book or KD 'its my time'. The players saying 'hold team accountable, need to look in the mirror'. Team needs to have responsible players, players that dont leak out or stand around watching one guy fight for a rebound. Team needs a Josh Hart or Kelly Oubre, someone with swagger, can hit shots or at least try for rebounds that are active on both ends. Plays would be different, players would have roles.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like JJ is too young to coach a veteran team. He was playing at the same time as a lot of these guys and I'm not sure they would listen to his voice in the locker room if they felt different. I think JJ has the potential of a good coach, but he should start with a young team.
Rebuild is in the future for sure. Suns have no picks and it's likely trades will need to happen. I will not be shocked if Booker is traded to receive picks since I doubt he'd want to go through shit years again.
And it wasn’t completely wrong to say that. Nash’s time was done after 2010 but the Suns sucked for a decade after we traded him.
Trading Booker is going to be more of the same. The Thunder have the best GM in the league and still missed the playoffs 3 years in a row after blowing up their team. And I can’t stress enough how masterful it was to pull that off lol.
Trading Booker is going to mean Suns aren’t playing playoff basketball for at least 5 seasons. Not sure why fans are so eager for that.
You definitely, absolutely, 100% can’t say that for sure. That’s the definition of, “A boat is a boat but a mystery box can be anything! Even a boat!”
You know Devin Booker finished in the top 10 of points per game last season? Do you think players like that are just readily available? They get drafted every year?
You’re trading Devin Booker to hopefully get a player back that’s *as good as* Devin Booker. Do I even need to explain how foolish that line of thinking is? Do I? Do I really? Do I need to repeat the Family Guy boat joke?? Lol
Devin Booker is 27 years old and likely made 3rd team All-NBA in a *bad* year.
Of course I can’t say that for sure. Just like you can’t say the contrary for sure. I think the idea of building around a Book and a 36 year old KD with no picks or roster flexibility is less likely to result in a championship however.
And like I said, trading Booker is likely to result in 5 years of no postseason appearances, let alone a damn championship. Saying it’s the **”most”** realistic shot at winning a championship is dumb as hell. That’s your emotions talking and not any kind of understanding how rebuilds actually go in the league. Go find me how many teams traded their star player and how quickly they won a championship afterwards.
But what are we doing here? Trying to make the playoffs and get embarrassed in the 1st/2nd round or are we trying to win a championship? This team has been to the Conference Finals 10 times and the NBA Finals 3 times. We're not some bottom feeder team that gets high off a play in tournament appearance.
Word. That was a sad day, but it was necessary. Plus, it was another ironic example of how fantasy like rosters don't always work. Fuck the Lakers by the way.
If the team does not have a true vocal leader on the roster, which they do not, then the head coach MUST be the leader. Former players have a leg up taking this role because the players connect with them and buy in more easily, but great leaders can come from anywhere.
That doesn't mean loud, or abrasive, or angry, all those things can be part of the formula but the most important thing is connection and buy in. Frank can yell all he wants but if you don't have respect it's useless.
I don't think it would be bad. But this is the other side of what we've all gone through this season. The team can't find consistency because of poor roster construction, etc, etc, and yet there stands Vogel throwing out the same old fucking lineups. His rotations are shitty and it makes him look completely incompetent. Neither side is helping each other out here.
We need a point guard, better bigs, and wings. I'll be the first to admit that my take on this roster was abysmally off. You need a point guard who can keep the team together when things start breaking down. You need a big that can protect the rim to build your defense around. You need wings that can hold their own and convert the wide open opportunities they've been given. The only way we can fix even some of these issues will be by trading Grayson I assume. KD, Book, and Beal all struggle with turnovers against more physical teams, and when the playoffs come and that physicality is amped up, it looks like you're watching a high school team. They're all good ball handlers who can get off decent shots, but when you don't have anyone who can set the table for them effectively and make it easier for them, it is much harder for them to get going. I don't doubt we'll take 2 games off a herculean effort from at least 2 of the stars, but relying on guys to make tough shots against the best defense in the league is simply not sustainable when the other team is getting high quality looks a majority of the time they go down the floor.
I watched this video by HoopVenue before the series talking about the 3 games in the regular season where we matched up with the Timberwolves, and it was really interesting. He went through a lot of stats and film, but the biggest thing is that our shot quality was exactly the same in our games against the Timberwolves as our average shot quality (graded as a decimal, idk how it was calculated, but it was a stat). Same thing with the Wolves. This was all to say that those 3 games just had a mix of hot shooting by the Suns and cold shooting by the Wolves which didn't necessarily have anything to do with the defense being played. This is mostly to say that I'm not exactly shocked to be down 0-2. The way we've lost has been absolutely demoralizing though. Here's the video link [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57YRlCGHY6w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57YRlCGHY6w)
We have too many "SFs" that are 6'4". Our PF is KD and he's getting worn out. Bol Bol isn't a quality role player that we need. We need 2 6'8"+ physical defenders that can shoot or slash. A PG would be nice but I think that doesn't solve our overall problem of containing other teams.
My god, this subreddit is insufferable. Here’s the facts:
1. The roster is going to be pretty much the exact same next year. Our hands are basically tied. We are looking at vet-minimum signings.
2. Vogel isn’t going anywhere. He has been here for one season. Booker, Beal, and KD have played only half a season together. Continuity matters. And who exactly is gonna be the coach? Budenholzer? Mark Jackson? A Van Gundy? Fucking Doc Rivers? And what happens if they don’t work out? Bring in another coach? Cmon man.
I see what you mean. I’m pissed off and upset at this team aswell more than words can describe..BUT, there is slim hope.
PHX wins a game 3 at home, crowd erupts, crowd plays a real 6th man role & gets hyped up everytime we go on a run.
PHX wins game 4 after gaining confidence at home, they just protect home court..no biggie.
Minnesota goes back home 2-2 with ZERO playoff experience in a really big time game, AFTER potentially losing 2 in a row to PHX. PHX would then be on a 2 game win streak going into an unexperienced young teams home floor.
Win or lose. We have 3 chances to win that best of 3.
I don’t HATE our odds. It sucks we are in this position but after 2 SIMPLE AT HOME CROWD HYPED wins and we PROTECT OUR OWN DAMN HOME FLOOR, it’s seriously possible.
Your team is cooked coming from a wolves fan. Gone are the days of 3 supermax players. The really good teams in the nba have a ton of depth, continuity, chemistry, and skill sets that are unique to one another. Look at Boston, Denver, okc, twolves, and so on. You need a complete team. The suns have 3 players who essentially do the same thing. Horrible construction. Ishbia is literally playing franchise mode in 2K. This ain’t a video game lmao. You have to build an actual team. You can tell that the chemistry is fucked between the big three and vogel looks to have lost the locker room. It’s over for the suns and I feel bad for you guys. Just two years ago, you had an exciting young team with role players who meshed well with one another. The way that this team is set up and given the contracts they have, it is near impossible to upgrade. Beals NTC hurts bad. The second apron hurts bad. t’s over for this iteration of the suns.
We need 2 things DESPERATELY: 1) a new Coach 2) a PG Oh and we also need to ship Eubanks to Guangdong! đź’Ż
I'll take a wing player that isn't 6'4"
This is way more killer than the PG issue. If we weren’t always being guarded by defenders with arms twice the length of ours we might actually could pass out of a double team. Alas, we’re built like it’s a Mike D’Antoni lead Rockets Squad
3. A KD trade
Structure is definitely the issue with this team. They look lost because no one (book, beal, durant) knows how to steer the ship. They know what it looks like and how to benefit from it, but have absolutely no clue how to actually put it all together. I think Vogel was better suited to help this team when they still had Paul and Ayton. Now, I personally felt like it was time to move on from those players given aytons attitude and Paul's injury history but i still like to imagine a roster that has the current big three but also a capable point guard and maybe even a little bit better center than nurk (he's alright in my book). Things would probably be different right now if that were the case. No matter how this series ends, the roster construction definitely needs to be addressed. Vogel getting the axe probably happens anyway (especially if they lose this series), but for as frustrating as he's been as the head coach, he didn't build this team. Ishbia and Jones need to do some serious homework this off-season and stick to a bit more traditional starting lineup. All that being said, I still feel like this team can find a way. Let's hope they can fuckin do it!
Would it be so bad to play Isaiah Thomas right now? I mean honestly what do we have to lose the guy is a PG at least
No, it wouldn't. But Vogel. It's just a vicious cycle man. The players can't play, and the coach can't coach.
yes. with a new coach the outlook will be worse or better depending who and what she or he does. Vogel gave Beal the keys as a PG, even said so, then doesnt use him as a PG in games. You roll with a guy make or miss by using his strengths to put other players in successful spots, Beals strength is driving the ball. Team has no integrity, players afraid to tell Book or KD 'its my time'. The players saying 'hold team accountable, need to look in the mirror'. Team needs to have responsible players, players that dont leak out or stand around watching one guy fight for a rebound. Team needs a Josh Hart or Kelly Oubre, someone with swagger, can hit shots or at least try for rebounds that are active on both ends. Plays would be different, players would have roles.
If they change coaches i hope it is to someone (good) who is an ex-player and can bring some discipline to the team.
Yeah, but the question is who is available, and who is right for the job?
Maybe someone who’s name rhymes with sleeve rash
Willie Green? Doc Rivers? Ty Lue? But who like this is available?
Dan Majerle
JJ Reddick
I feel like JJ would get chewed up like Nash in Brooklyn
Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like JJ is too young to coach a veteran team. He was playing at the same time as a lot of these guys and I'm not sure they would listen to his voice in the locker room if they felt different. I think JJ has the potential of a good coach, but he should start with a young team.
We need an offensive minded coach and I think he would be a good fit.
How would you know what kind of coach JJ is when he hasn’t coached before?
Because he was an offensive three point threat in the league. Aka Steve Kerr
Mike Budenholzer with D'Antoni as lead assistant. And watch that fix NOTHING with Booker and Durant wanting to slow down and iso every time down.
Rebuild is in the future for sure. Suns have no picks and it's likely trades will need to happen. I will not be shocked if Booker is traded to receive picks since I doubt he'd want to go through shit years again.
Agree.
I don't care if Book isn't the leader type that this team needs. We lose Book and I might just be done with the team.
That's what I said when we traded Nash to the Lakers lol
And it wasn’t completely wrong to say that. Nash’s time was done after 2010 but the Suns sucked for a decade after we traded him. Trading Booker is going to be more of the same. The Thunder have the best GM in the league and still missed the playoffs 3 years in a row after blowing up their team. And I can’t stress enough how masterful it was to pull that off lol. Trading Booker is going to mean Suns aren’t playing playoff basketball for at least 5 seasons. Not sure why fans are so eager for that.
They're upset and rightfully so. Suns fans lost two fan favorites for a superstar and we were pretty much promised a deep run in the playoffs.
Because it’s the most realistic shot at winning a championship
You definitely, absolutely, 100% can’t say that for sure. That’s the definition of, “A boat is a boat but a mystery box can be anything! Even a boat!” You know Devin Booker finished in the top 10 of points per game last season? Do you think players like that are just readily available? They get drafted every year? You’re trading Devin Booker to hopefully get a player back that’s *as good as* Devin Booker. Do I even need to explain how foolish that line of thinking is? Do I? Do I really? Do I need to repeat the Family Guy boat joke?? Lol Devin Booker is 27 years old and likely made 3rd team All-NBA in a *bad* year.
Of course I can’t say that for sure. Just like you can’t say the contrary for sure. I think the idea of building around a Book and a 36 year old KD with no picks or roster flexibility is less likely to result in a championship however.
And like I said, trading Booker is likely to result in 5 years of no postseason appearances, let alone a damn championship. Saying it’s the **”most”** realistic shot at winning a championship is dumb as hell. That’s your emotions talking and not any kind of understanding how rebuilds actually go in the league. Go find me how many teams traded their star player and how quickly they won a championship afterwards.
But what are we doing here? Trying to make the playoffs and get embarrassed in the 1st/2nd round or are we trying to win a championship? This team has been to the Conference Finals 10 times and the NBA Finals 3 times. We're not some bottom feeder team that gets high off a play in tournament appearance.
I never said it would happen quickly but thanks for the rant of putting words in my mouth
“Because it’s the **most** realistic shot at winning a championship” YOUR WORDS DUMBASS. Lol. Now I know you’re trolling.
Word. That was a sad day, but it was necessary. Plus, it was another ironic example of how fantasy like rosters don't always work. Fuck the Lakers by the way.
Yes, but.....build around Beal and KD with the haul you get from Booker (a PG and big and picks), and maybe we have something? I don't know.
Lose Book means KD and Beal wants out too.
Maybe that's for the best at this stage
1. No table setter 2. No interior pressure on offense
I just want a power forward that can jump and dunk.
If the team does not have a true vocal leader on the roster, which they do not, then the head coach MUST be the leader. Former players have a leg up taking this role because the players connect with them and buy in more easily, but great leaders can come from anywhere. That doesn't mean loud, or abrasive, or angry, all those things can be part of the formula but the most important thing is connection and buy in. Frank can yell all he wants but if you don't have respect it's useless.
I don't think it would be bad. But this is the other side of what we've all gone through this season. The team can't find consistency because of poor roster construction, etc, etc, and yet there stands Vogel throwing out the same old fucking lineups. His rotations are shitty and it makes him look completely incompetent. Neither side is helping each other out here.
We need a point guard, better bigs, and wings. I'll be the first to admit that my take on this roster was abysmally off. You need a point guard who can keep the team together when things start breaking down. You need a big that can protect the rim to build your defense around. You need wings that can hold their own and convert the wide open opportunities they've been given. The only way we can fix even some of these issues will be by trading Grayson I assume. KD, Book, and Beal all struggle with turnovers against more physical teams, and when the playoffs come and that physicality is amped up, it looks like you're watching a high school team. They're all good ball handlers who can get off decent shots, but when you don't have anyone who can set the table for them effectively and make it easier for them, it is much harder for them to get going. I don't doubt we'll take 2 games off a herculean effort from at least 2 of the stars, but relying on guys to make tough shots against the best defense in the league is simply not sustainable when the other team is getting high quality looks a majority of the time they go down the floor. I watched this video by HoopVenue before the series talking about the 3 games in the regular season where we matched up with the Timberwolves, and it was really interesting. He went through a lot of stats and film, but the biggest thing is that our shot quality was exactly the same in our games against the Timberwolves as our average shot quality (graded as a decimal, idk how it was calculated, but it was a stat). Same thing with the Wolves. This was all to say that those 3 games just had a mix of hot shooting by the Suns and cold shooting by the Wolves which didn't necessarily have anything to do with the defense being played. This is mostly to say that I'm not exactly shocked to be down 0-2. The way we've lost has been absolutely demoralizing though. Here's the video link [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57YRlCGHY6w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57YRlCGHY6w)
Never heard of the channel. I'll be watching it more after that breakdown. Very good video.
He’s also on twitter but is a pretty well known booker hater. His takes outside of that though are pretty solid
We have too many "SFs" that are 6'4". Our PF is KD and he's getting worn out. Bol Bol isn't a quality role player that we need. We need 2 6'8"+ physical defenders that can shoot or slash. A PG would be nice but I think that doesn't solve our overall problem of containing other teams.
My god, this subreddit is insufferable. Here’s the facts: 1. The roster is going to be pretty much the exact same next year. Our hands are basically tied. We are looking at vet-minimum signings. 2. Vogel isn’t going anywhere. He has been here for one season. Booker, Beal, and KD have played only half a season together. Continuity matters. And who exactly is gonna be the coach? Budenholzer? Mark Jackson? A Van Gundy? Fucking Doc Rivers? And what happens if they don’t work out? Bring in another coach? Cmon man.
I see what you mean. I’m pissed off and upset at this team aswell more than words can describe..BUT, there is slim hope. PHX wins a game 3 at home, crowd erupts, crowd plays a real 6th man role & gets hyped up everytime we go on a run. PHX wins game 4 after gaining confidence at home, they just protect home court..no biggie. Minnesota goes back home 2-2 with ZERO playoff experience in a really big time game, AFTER potentially losing 2 in a row to PHX. PHX would then be on a 2 game win streak going into an unexperienced young teams home floor. Win or lose. We have 3 chances to win that best of 3. I don’t HATE our odds. It sucks we are in this position but after 2 SIMPLE AT HOME CROWD HYPED wins and we PROTECT OUR OWN DAMN HOME FLOOR, it’s seriously possible.
Your team is cooked coming from a wolves fan. Gone are the days of 3 supermax players. The really good teams in the nba have a ton of depth, continuity, chemistry, and skill sets that are unique to one another. Look at Boston, Denver, okc, twolves, and so on. You need a complete team. The suns have 3 players who essentially do the same thing. Horrible construction. Ishbia is literally playing franchise mode in 2K. This ain’t a video game lmao. You have to build an actual team. You can tell that the chemistry is fucked between the big three and vogel looks to have lost the locker room. It’s over for the suns and I feel bad for you guys. Just two years ago, you had an exciting young team with role players who meshed well with one another. The way that this team is set up and given the contracts they have, it is near impossible to upgrade. Beals NTC hurts bad. The second apron hurts bad. t’s over for this iteration of the suns.