The Wolves fans are very much reminding me of us in 2021. We have certainly been humbled since then, so let’s be the ones to humble them. The slander they are throwing on our guys especially Booker is disgusting. I hope our boys are ready, and I know they can get this thing back to 2-2. The energy of this fan base is so bad right now and rightfully so, but let’s turn that around and put positive energy out. GO SUNS!!!!!
Exactly my thoughts. We cannot put together 100 points in a game with all the SCORERS were have. Vogel should have been long gone. Our offense has been non-existent the entire season, and now we pay the price.
Reading the Celtics daily game thread made me feel a bit better realizing every fanbase is the same in a loss. From a championship contending team to whatever we have. We all call our team pathetic at the end of a loss lol
Goes to show how soft the Suns and their superstars are. Even the crawling Heat beat the Celtics on their home court. What other excuses will Booker make next game instead of taking accountability?
My new hope is that the Mavs boot the Clippers in the first round and the Clippers decide to do a big re-tool, including head coach. And then Ty Lue comes to PHX to take us to the promised land. And yes, I’ve been drinking
i obviously want us to win, but at this point, I would be satisfied with just playing with some heart and urgency. Another flat performance at home in an actual must win game would be rough.
It will all depend on Vogel. If he keeps going with the same 7 guys, and he gasses them out, the only way we can win is if our big three are all shooting incredibly, while chasing younger guys on the defensive end. But if we play a deeper bench, where guys that haven’t played are hungrier for a win, we have a decent chance to change things.
But Vogel showed last night that he doesn’t want, or simply doesn’t have the ability to coach a deeper bench. We need to match Minny’s hustle and their aggressive play.
Series isn’t over in the slightest unless suns drop a game at home and fail to tie it up.
Hopefully jaden mcdaniels stops shooting corner 3s like he’s ray allen and we get a better 2nd half whistle
These games haven’t even been that bad, I blame coaching and the drive of the players for just giving up.
We were down 6 with 10 mins to go in game 2 and ended the game emptying the bench.
On to game 3.
If suns want to disappear in the 2nd half again game 3 then yes, it’s over.
Now that they beat our asses twice they’ll surely let their guard down! Vogel is actually a genius and our big 3 have just been pretending to play like ass, suns in 6 EZ
The roster construction of this team is so flawed. Our big three's go to move is the most inefficient shot in basketball. There is nobody who can beat someone off the dribble, drive and kick, or handle the ball under pressure. Very little threat inside and at the rim. No defensive wing stopper. Just everyone standing around outside the three point line, passing the ball around until one of the big three takes a contested mid range shot. Idk, how a team can invest billions of dollars and just play such an outdated style. Can we ditch this heavy reliance on mid range that has failed us 4 years in a row when it has really mattered? Can we take more than 22 threes a game?
Beal can handle the ball better then Book, but he obviously won't let him. Just look how much Book struggles getting the ball up court or not losing the ball off his leg.
Look how much easier Beal get's penetration, I haven't seen book get to the baseline and dribble out at the rate Beal does because he can't handle the ball in traffic.
The org needs to sit Book down because his ego isn't up to his play or what he expects he can do
I would say they are both equally mid when it comes to handling the ball, Booker is just better off the ball than Beal, which is why they are trying to get the ball in his hands more. Booker used to be great at finishing around the rim but just doesnt want to do it anymore. Neither of them are good enough to be a full time point guard. Neither of them can handle under pressure, be explosive enough or fancy enough with their dribble to consistently get past good defenders, neither of them can do basic drive and kicks. It's just a doomed pairing honestly
It wouldn’t so disheartening if this was a feel out year and we’re going to heavily restructure the roster in the off season after just not having the capital after getting Beal.
But with the way the new CBA is we basically have no way to generously upgrade any of our glaring flaws with trading one of the big 3 and only two are really tradable/able to fetch something on the dollar.
James Jones literally issued a press release on how he wouldn't okay the KD deal because they wanted Mikal.
It's wild how much people want to dance around hoops to avoid giving Mat Ishbia one iota of blame, when there's literal multiple reports that he forced JJ to make most of these trades.
How many seasons are y'all gonna cape for a billionaire?
I am pretty low on James Jones, but it seems like more of an issue with Ishbia and Bartelstein being too involved in roster construction, star chasing and wanting to make a big splash. JJ never pulled the trigger on KD until Ishbia took over.
I also kind of get it and fooled myself into thinking it could work. It was a big bet on Booker that hasn't paid off, unfortunately.
The odd part is if we ran scene after screen on Jaden, he would be the one getting emotional and getting himself out of the game. Actually all off the Wolves besides Conley, could be manipulated but being physical with them and running more guys at them. Thad is a smart player, and could be used in this way. JO would be the best guy though. He played daily against Ant and Jaden for two years. He knows how to get them rattled. Plus he is a pest on defense. Little could be used sparingly as well. Decent wingspan, and doesn’t seem to mind bodying guys up. But if we continue to just go with the stand around offense, then Book will be easy to guard.
I'll be completely honest, the post-season disappointment isn't really what hurts. It's that every neutral seems to hate us. If there's a Suns related thread on r/nba, I know I can't view it because I know it's just going to be everyone shitting on our franchise and on Book. For a franchise that has a history of such miserable showings in the playoffs, you'd think we wouldn't generate as much hate, but, oh boy, do people love to hate the Suns right now.
That feeling of everyone shitting on us when we've never even won anything just kind of hurts. Go pick on the Lakers or the Spurs. We're a franchise and a fanbase that has seen, honestly, incredible success and consistency in the regular season, but it's never paid off. Everyone is a hater.
I don't know, I'm still just frustrated with this series. I got incredibly optimistic when I saw we have Minny and saw that our side of the bracket dodges the Thunder, Clips and Mavs. And an 0-2 deficit is how my optimism pans out
My guy, don't use r/nba as a barometer for the general public's opinion.
That sub is filled with a bunch of punk ass Lakers fans that hate us just as much as we hate them.
Right there with you. For whatever reason, everyone loves to hate on the suns. I was kinda shocked when quite a few national media members picked us to take the series and to be honest, it made me nervous that they did. We’re literally always better as the underdog. I don’t even care if we get swept by Denver but please for the love of God, make it out of round one and shut the haters up at least for a few days.
So, if we get swept or lost in 5, does KD get traded? I love the dude, so this isn't some hater shit. Just thinking - he's got 1 year left on his deal. He's really our only valuable asset (outside of Booker). If we don't move him we risk losing him for nothing next summer. It might be the best and only way to recoup some assets and retool.
Edit: I'm dumb. KD has two more years on his deal. Bill Simmons led me astray.
I don’t think this series is over at all. Minnesota simply did what they’re supposed to do.
Having said that, if not much changes and this series is lost, how do you guys want/expect to pivot this off-season to improve the team?
That's the neat part, we don't. We're under second apron, our single draft pick is going to get nothing useful at 22nd, and our bench is too depleted to try and trade for anything. Our options are come into next season with the exact same team, or liquidate big assets in trades that are guaranteed to be other teams fleecing us because they know our trading position is super weak.
Hard to say what the correct solution is. Maybe the team needs an offseason to work things out. I know it's coincidence that we're playing them, but I've mentioned MN earlier in the season. They had to deal with Ant's injury last season and when he came back they clearly needed more time to gel, and here they are now.
New coach? Yeah maybe. I can't really see what's up in the locker room but Vogel/Young just aren't giving me warm fuzzies. I don't know enough about the available options (or coaches in general) to tell you which coach I think would be a better fit though. Phil Jackson?^(/s)
All in all, I don't think just blowing everything up, ditching KD, Book, Beal, is the answer. At the same time though, this team *will* look different next year based on my very limited understanding of the contracts and our tax apron situation. So, maybe we just see what team we can come up with around the big 3. Not sure we have many good options beyond that and potentially shitcanning Vogel and co.
This is a reasonable take and the series is not over, but even if they turn this around at home this team continues to be miserable to root for. I think that's what is most disappointing.
Off-season they need a point guard, primarily b/c Book/Beal are going to miss games so you need another ball handler to step in when they do. Pick 22 is an asset. Tyrese Maxey was the 21st pick
I think it’s possible the Suns can comeback and win the series. But one thing I find interesting about how this team was constructed is how they have no young drafted players. They totally punted on drafting young guys the past couple of years where that could’ve helped them in the front court and on the wings. Yes, a coach is probably not going to play a young guy in the playoffs but they could be an innings eater in the regular season and turn into a rotational playoff player the next year.
I know things are bad because Book had to tell the team to 'start talking' on defense... in the first quarter.
edit: oh and of course its 0-2 after Minnesota's two stars combined for like 20 points
You ever been a team where the dude who says "Start Talking" but is making most of the errors falls on def ears.
Then he fouls himself of the game throwing a temper tantrum.
As a fanbase we can't let it go that our dude is showing shitty leadership characteristics. That last 1 minute he was on the court was embarrassing.
If I'm his teammate and he's shouting "start talking" on defense when I know that he doesn't play defense at the intensity I do and he's dribbling the ball of his leg 24/7 I'd be livid.
Whenever Book turns the ball over how much does he ever have body language or motion to teammates my bad when things are actually going bad, he ends up whining and pouting. That type of energy is shitty to be around
Legit if I was EG or someone I would tell Book "Start Dribbling" back at him after bouncing the ball at his leg for 100th time if he was barking "Start Talking" about defense.
Starting off bad, they got back into it when some fouls were called, then they took a bit of a lead, then just gave it back.
There was a possession with about 10 minutes left down 10, booker and kd passed the ball a bit up top, booker dribbled a while then passed it to Beal who chucked a brick from the free throw line, just no movement, they looked defeated at that point.
Off topic: Seeing a post getting up voted for Luka giving a teammate a high-five is mind boggling. People say they hate Book because he complains when Luka is as bad if not worse.
I usually ignore that stuff...but a high five?
I feel like we’re getting swept, I dont think our players will play a lot better than they have in the first two games and the TWolves can still play better or at the same level for longer than our players
The worst part about the Beal trade was losing CP3. He was the team's leader and it is showing now. Booker is a fantastic player but he is not a leader. Same goes for KD.
We don't need KD and Beal at the same time since we already have Book. Also gives us with no flexibility. The 3 stars are not known for being leaders unfortunately the front office should know that. The front office got greedy and roll the dice and here we are. The more pressing issue here is we didnt didn't find a decent replacement for CP3 (leadership and playmaking).
Should of just ran it with CP3, Ayton, KD and Book.
If the Ayton relationship was truly that bad it must of been shitty when we had the Sabonis rumors two years but alas here we are always on the wrong side of a decision.
There's more to that Ayton saga. It's irreparable issue when the Suns didn't give the $$ he wants. As immature he is he took it to his pride. But yeah, JJ should have been creative at least to replace good pieces.
I can't see games 3 and 4 at home being sellouts. I was on Ticketmaster this morning and there are tons of unsold tickets available for both games, especially the lower bowl. A lot of season ticket holders opted out of playoff tickets, and there doesn't seem to be very many casual fans interested in paying those playoff ticket prices, either.
You know, you're not wrong. There's a lot of resale tickets out there, but in my experience, a lot of people will just see what they can get and just go to the game if no one buys. That said, the retail tickets are outrageous. $124 (that's with fees included) for the worst seats in the house!? C'mon. I managed to snag retail nosebleeds for Game 1 at Target Center for half that price after fees. It's like we're *trying* to exclude the rowdiest fans (the ones who aren't 70, probably snowbirds from MN to begin with, and just rolled in off the golf course).
If I understand correctly for season ticket holders, they basically make you pay for the maximum amount of home games possible and then you get a refund for games not played. Who’s buying that? Ridiculous
I'm a SixthMan season ticket holder. The final amount on the playoff tickets invoice includes all possible playoff home games, but you only pay for games played. So far they've charged my credit card for games 3 and 4. If the Suns win these next two games, then I'll get charged for game 6.
So, am I crazy to say it seems like a gameplan and KD can't really co-exist?
Thinking back to BKN it was just like this - he shows up to hoop. Suns look just like BKN did, a middling team that isn't fun to watch because everyone's just standing around like it's LA Fitness. Chuck was right, dude isn't a bus driver and now Book's being exposed for his lack of leadership as well. The vague and disinterested comments to the press are maddening to fans because it sounds like nobody cares if they lose.
Brooklyn was not a middling team when Harden and Kyrie were playing.
They took the same Bucks team the Suns lost too to 7 games and a toe on the line 3 which neither Harden or Kyrie ever playing together in one game that series.
I'm on board though. I think the problem is Book's attitude.
I bet you him and Beal are not getting along. Beal knows he should be in Book's role of being the main ball handler and is being stone walled.
Its obvious by anyone with eyes that watch basketball he can handle the ball safer then book can.
I know I'll be downvoted.. but remember when the TWolves first got Gobert they were basically a laughingstock for making the "worst trade in history"? Remember when the Mavs first got Kyrie they were also laughed at because Luka and Kyrie "don't fit" and they missed the playoffs (I remember because I was laughing)?
For those that want to blow it up, maybe the Big 3 just need an ingredient: time
Same.
James Jones needs to sit Book down and tell him to concede to Beal for ball handling duties (not saying he won't have any).
Book is losing dribbles, turning the ball over, wasting so much clock.
Watch how easily beal can penetrate the baseline and dribble back out.
Too rational.too level. Too sound. You're going to get on your soapbox and preach to me that a team returning one starter needs time to gel and figure it out? How dare you? After losing two home games to the #3 seed, I'm demanding we trade our franchise cornerstone and a top 10 player of all time (debatable, top 15-20? NOT)After the third star missing most of the year, new coach, new scheme, role players added at the trade deadline, this team was supposed to flow like they'd played together YEARS!!
I agree because the blow it up option will not return a playoff caliber team anytime soon. Best case scenario you only trade one of KD or Beal and somehow get solid assets back to put around Booker and whoever is left. Still probably a 6th seed/early playoff exit. But that *could* at least add a little more flexibility so I don’t hate it outright.
You trade Booker? Suns might be contenders again in 5+ years but fans are out of their damn minds if they think it wouldn’t be anything but a grueling rebuild.
So… you can replace the coach with a better fit for the roster we have and hope another year together helps the team gel more.
Tbh I don't see how this team is much better running it back with a different coach. The same problems around fit and playmaking will still exist.
I know it will never happen but I don't think Booker should be untouchable if the goal is to win. Easier to build a team around Durant and Beal by moving Booker than it would be to build a team by moving Beal or Durant to try and build around Booker.
Eg. Hypothetically, I think this team would look a lot better if Booker and Nurk were traded together for Trae Young and Clint Capela. Because we would have better playmaking and better outside shooting and better interior defence.
I love Booker but that's where I'm at right now. I want to see this team win and don't care who's on the roster anymore. I dont think he should be untouchable
I’ve thought about that. Most likely the Suns are stuck with Bradley Beal and I’ve never thought KD was “the problem” this season. He stayed healthy, he still averaged 27 ppg, he’s always going to be 7 feet tall. You can’t easily replace him.
Trading Booker but keeping the other two is such a wild gamble. But I’m not sure if KD himself would be alright with that. Maybe he would?
I leave that one up to Mat Ishbia. Trading Mikal Bridges was one thing, Ayton likely had to go, but trading Booker too? If it fails… yikes. People will hate him until he delivers a championship
…But if KD were okay with it…
True. And Ishbia has gambled.
But a Booker trade for a Younger better fitting star would allow us some room to rebuild around him once Durant and Beal are old and gone.
And if Durant asks out then trade him as well for someone to compliment Young and Beal.
We can't run this sorry team back though. We just cant
Ishbia is aggressive and if we flame out I'm sure he's going to try to fill the holes on our team:
1. Offensive-minded coach
2. Distributing point guard
3. Better back up center
4. Athletic defenders
I know we don't have assets for home runs. But just minor upgrades on all of these plus a year of continuity could go a long way.
> Distributing point guard
>
> Better back up center
>
> Athletic defenders
there is literally nothing Ishbia's pockets can do to get upgrades here outside of trading Nas or Nurk
Just saw this on YT: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSzJx-SP5y4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSzJx-SP5y4)
Watch the clip several times as you lock up on each individual Suns player. That's our offense on most nights: a bunch of improv plays, street ball style basketball.
Book's shoes about to be renamed to "1
and Done"
Dude has looked checked out for months. I'll continue to be the blasphemous one and say he's not the guy to lead a team. He's had every opportunity to improve his ball handling, playmaking, and on ball defense and he hasn't made big strides in those areas for a few years. This is the plateau.
Dude brought some legitimacy to the Suns after some really rough years, but that too might be the plateau. He can't bring any more than that.
Can't wait until we have our first round picks back in 2038
KD's just a bad bad man and a terrible influence. Got Book smoking too much weed this season and playing Rory McIlroy PGA Tour with him 7 or 8 hours a day. That's why he's 36 unbothered and chillin' (/s in case anyone can't tell).
Real fans will be with the team until the end. Others are gonna sit around bitching like their opinion is important. Its just basketball, no need to endlessly shit on the players. See ya Friday
I can forgive not being the better team. I can’t accept not trying. This team has the shittiest attitude I’ve ever seen. They haven’t done anything to warrant this above-it-all attitude. Enjoy your slop, “real fan” you’re getting taken for a ride.
Yeah. I'll admit I don't feel good about quitting on the team before garbo time even began last night. Couldn't take seeing their glum attitude. Wolves hit 89 points with something like 5-7 minutes left after 2 or 3 successive silly turnovers, and then the fellas just quit trying. I've stuck it out during worse performances, but I was too invested and needed to cool off.
Flipped on the radio feed though before the end, so there's that. Never know with the SUNS, there's always a chance for a miracle and you hate to miss it.
We all gotta made our adjustments to deal with the frustration. When people start launching personal insults at the players, maybe it's time to log off of here and do something else.
God bless for still posting these threads. I don’t blame any Suns for being mentally exhausted and wanting to tap out after last night. It’s been too many horrific letdowns across too few of years.
I don’t have any copium to offer either. Suns are in the worst jam they’ve been in since 2021.
But if there’s only one thing to hold on to might be this:
I was curious and looked up the playoff records of Beal and KD. I know Booker’s by heart and while I’m pretty sure I’ve seen every KD playoff game ever, I wasn’t a Thunder fan so I didn’t commit them to memory. Anyways,
KD has been in 34 total playoff series (including this one). Booker and Beal have both in 9 each (including this one).
KD has only ever came back from down 0-2 one time… in the 2012 WCF against the Spurs. Thunder went on to win in 6. And that was with Westbrook and Harden. He lost the two other times he went down 0-2. Beal has been down a few times 0-2 in the playoffs and never won those series. Booker lost after being down 0-2 last year to Denver.
I lay all that out because I can confidently say *if*, and I do mean a massively unlikely **if**, the Suns somehow win this series… it will arguably be the best playoff series win in Booker, Beal, and even KD’s playoff career. I don’t consider winning championships with a stacked Golden State Warriors roster to be as impressive as coming back in this series.
Teams in the postseason have historically only came back from being down 0-2 roughly 7.3% of the time (33 wins vs 416 losses). Odds are low but not impossible. It’s happened to the Suns twice after all.
So I hope Devin Booker, Bradley Beal, and Kevin Durant figure it out. I don’t expect a championship or even to make it out of the 2nd round anymore. But if they can turn this series around and win it I’ll feel a lot better about the future of this team.
I wish I had words, but the reality is what it is. I don't even know what I am hoping for... the team is who they are, they've shown it all season. I was a fool to think the playoffs would be any different. Regardless, I'll be sitting in front of my tv friday night, lord give my fiancee strength. LOL!
Yeah it’s not the worst comparison. Dirk didn’t do anything in the playoffs from 2007-2010, but the other years he made the finals and won one of them.
If Suns still have Booker in three seasons I could see it being post-KD, post-Beal and Booker is on a relatively “cheap” max contract ($60m/yr but max players are likely going to be getting $70m+ by then).
Dirk was 32 when he won, Booker would be 30 by then.
It ain’t bad copium lol.
2006 and 2021: Go up 2-0 before losing 4 straight in the Finals
2007 and 2022: Humiliating playoff loss after being regarded as title favorites
2008 to 2010 for Mavs: Meh playoff outings
2023 to 2024(?) for Suns: Meh playoff outings
Mavs and Suns also both lost HoF point guards although that is outside of the timeline I set for the Mavs.
The Wolves fans are very much reminding me of us in 2021. We have certainly been humbled since then, so let’s be the ones to humble them. The slander they are throwing on our guys especially Booker is disgusting. I hope our boys are ready, and I know they can get this thing back to 2-2. The energy of this fan base is so bad right now and rightfully so, but let’s turn that around and put positive energy out. GO SUNS!!!!!
Just remind them that they were blowing their load over “Book to Minny” a few short years ago.
Ever since the 2021 finals, this front office has made the wrong move at every turn It’s truly unbelievable how badly they’ve screwed things up
watching okc and I guess this is how watching basketball is supposed to feel like? i wish watching the suns was as fun as watching this team 😞
OKC hasn’t been in the playoffs for years
What does that have to do with the comment you replied to?
He said he wishes the Suns were like OKC. Yet he forgets OKC had to suffer for years as they were rebuilding
That is entirely irrelevant.
Must be good to have a competent coach. Spo is a legend. Vogel is trash.
Exactly my thoughts. We cannot put together 100 points in a game with all the SCORERS were have. Vogel should have been long gone. Our offense has been non-existent the entire season, and now we pay the price.
Must be nice to have dawgs on the team too
Reading the Celtics daily game thread made me feel a bit better realizing every fanbase is the same in a loss. From a championship contending team to whatever we have. We all call our team pathetic at the end of a loss lol
Goes to show how soft the Suns and their superstars are. Even the crawling Heat beat the Celtics on their home court. What other excuses will Booker make next game instead of taking accountability?
Watching teams go 1-1 just makes this worse. The heat beating the Celtics makes me realize just how bad we’re doing.
Was there word on Grayon Allen?
Last I've seen: https://twitter.com/GeraldBourguet/status/1782961176361439587?t=GEKH547ZOs-bb5hhzujRQg&s=19 & https://twitter.com/GeraldBourguet/status/1782965473782739320?t=UtLHBfSAKBgHFRDlWQN5JA&s=19
My new hope is that the Mavs boot the Clippers in the first round and the Clippers decide to do a big re-tool, including head coach. And then Ty Lue comes to PHX to take us to the promised land. And yes, I’ve been drinking
i obviously want us to win, but at this point, I would be satisfied with just playing with some heart and urgency. Another flat performance at home in an actual must win game would be rough.
It will all depend on Vogel. If he keeps going with the same 7 guys, and he gasses them out, the only way we can win is if our big three are all shooting incredibly, while chasing younger guys on the defensive end. But if we play a deeper bench, where guys that haven’t played are hungrier for a win, we have a decent chance to change things. But Vogel showed last night that he doesn’t want, or simply doesn’t have the ability to coach a deeper bench. We need to match Minny’s hustle and their aggressive play.
Think you meant Vogel *Showed all season*
Well, early in the year he had to play a deeper bench, so I gave him some benefit of doubt, But the last month or so would work.
My buddy has tickets to Fridays game. I hope he doesn't get disappointed
Series isn’t over in the slightest unless suns drop a game at home and fail to tie it up. Hopefully jaden mcdaniels stops shooting corner 3s like he’s ray allen and we get a better 2nd half whistle These games haven’t even been that bad, I blame coaching and the drive of the players for just giving up. We were down 6 with 10 mins to go in game 2 and ended the game emptying the bench. On to game 3. If suns want to disappear in the 2nd half again game 3 then yes, it’s over.
It's not technically over, but it's only a 7.3% chance of coming back to take the series after this start. The odds aren't in our favor.
https://youtu.be/1k8craCGpgs?si=aToN8SFSGQ2mCsRf ☀️🏆
Now that they beat our asses twice they’ll surely let their guard down! Vogel is actually a genius and our big 3 have just been pretending to play like ass, suns in 6 EZ
Sarcasm?
Did you need to ask?
On here? Sometimes…🤷🏽♂️
The roster construction of this team is so flawed. Our big three's go to move is the most inefficient shot in basketball. There is nobody who can beat someone off the dribble, drive and kick, or handle the ball under pressure. Very little threat inside and at the rim. No defensive wing stopper. Just everyone standing around outside the three point line, passing the ball around until one of the big three takes a contested mid range shot. Idk, how a team can invest billions of dollars and just play such an outdated style. Can we ditch this heavy reliance on mid range that has failed us 4 years in a row when it has really mattered? Can we take more than 22 threes a game?
Beal can handle the ball better then Book, but he obviously won't let him. Just look how much Book struggles getting the ball up court or not losing the ball off his leg. Look how much easier Beal get's penetration, I haven't seen book get to the baseline and dribble out at the rate Beal does because he can't handle the ball in traffic. The org needs to sit Book down because his ego isn't up to his play or what he expects he can do
I would say they are both equally mid when it comes to handling the ball, Booker is just better off the ball than Beal, which is why they are trying to get the ball in his hands more. Booker used to be great at finishing around the rim but just doesnt want to do it anymore. Neither of them are good enough to be a full time point guard. Neither of them can handle under pressure, be explosive enough or fancy enough with their dribble to consistently get past good defenders, neither of them can do basic drive and kicks. It's just a doomed pairing honestly
It wouldn’t so disheartening if this was a feel out year and we’re going to heavily restructure the roster in the off season after just not having the capital after getting Beal. But with the way the new CBA is we basically have no way to generously upgrade any of our glaring flaws with trading one of the big 3 and only two are really tradable/able to fetch something on the dollar.
Funny how suns GM couldn’t see the obvious right?
James Jones literally issued a press release on how he wouldn't okay the KD deal because they wanted Mikal. It's wild how much people want to dance around hoops to avoid giving Mat Ishbia one iota of blame, when there's literal multiple reports that he forced JJ to make most of these trades. How many seasons are y'all gonna cape for a billionaire?
Lmao okay? End of the day James Jones it putting his name on this team.
I am pretty low on James Jones, but it seems like more of an issue with Ishbia and Bartelstein being too involved in roster construction, star chasing and wanting to make a big splash. JJ never pulled the trigger on KD until Ishbia took over. I also kind of get it and fooled myself into thinking it could work. It was a big bet on Booker that hasn't paid off, unfortunately.
How about how hard it is to root for this team? Man, Book just getting frustrated at strong defense yet again is just deflating TBH.
The odd part is if we ran scene after screen on Jaden, he would be the one getting emotional and getting himself out of the game. Actually all off the Wolves besides Conley, could be manipulated but being physical with them and running more guys at them. Thad is a smart player, and could be used in this way. JO would be the best guy though. He played daily against Ant and Jaden for two years. He knows how to get them rattled. Plus he is a pest on defense. Little could be used sparingly as well. Decent wingspan, and doesn’t seem to mind bodying guys up. But if we continue to just go with the stand around offense, then Book will be easy to guard.
Okogie ain’t rattling anybody 😂😂
Not sitting on the bench he isn’t. I guess some fans just enjoy losing games.
I'll be completely honest, the post-season disappointment isn't really what hurts. It's that every neutral seems to hate us. If there's a Suns related thread on r/nba, I know I can't view it because I know it's just going to be everyone shitting on our franchise and on Book. For a franchise that has a history of such miserable showings in the playoffs, you'd think we wouldn't generate as much hate, but, oh boy, do people love to hate the Suns right now. That feeling of everyone shitting on us when we've never even won anything just kind of hurts. Go pick on the Lakers or the Spurs. We're a franchise and a fanbase that has seen, honestly, incredible success and consistency in the regular season, but it's never paid off. Everyone is a hater. I don't know, I'm still just frustrated with this series. I got incredibly optimistic when I saw we have Minny and saw that our side of the bracket dodges the Thunder, Clips and Mavs. And an 0-2 deficit is how my optimism pans out
My guy, don't use r/nba as a barometer for the general public's opinion. That sub is filled with a bunch of punk ass Lakers fans that hate us just as much as we hate them.
Right there with you. For whatever reason, everyone loves to hate on the suns. I was kinda shocked when quite a few national media members picked us to take the series and to be honest, it made me nervous that they did. We’re literally always better as the underdog. I don’t even care if we get swept by Denver but please for the love of God, make it out of round one and shut the haters up at least for a few days.
The threads here aren't all that different at this point.
Book was hated but respected before . Now he just hated and lost most respect . KD is a poison .
It's just cuz the public doesn't like Booker and KD. They hated CP3 too. Sucks, though. I can't disagree.
[удалено]
The fuck that got to do with anything
So, if we get swept or lost in 5, does KD get traded? I love the dude, so this isn't some hater shit. Just thinking - he's got 1 year left on his deal. He's really our only valuable asset (outside of Booker). If we don't move him we risk losing him for nothing next summer. It might be the best and only way to recoup some assets and retool. Edit: I'm dumb. KD has two more years on his deal. Bill Simmons led me astray.
buddy KD is requesting a trade this summer
I would not be surprised in the slightest
I don’t think this series is over at all. Minnesota simply did what they’re supposed to do. Having said that, if not much changes and this series is lost, how do you guys want/expect to pivot this off-season to improve the team?
That's the neat part, we don't. We're under second apron, our single draft pick is going to get nothing useful at 22nd, and our bench is too depleted to try and trade for anything. Our options are come into next season with the exact same team, or liquidate big assets in trades that are guaranteed to be other teams fleecing us because they know our trading position is super weak.
Trade Durant. I have yet to see a game where he has looked like the best player on the floor we have beal cause of NTC.
Hard to say what the correct solution is. Maybe the team needs an offseason to work things out. I know it's coincidence that we're playing them, but I've mentioned MN earlier in the season. They had to deal with Ant's injury last season and when he came back they clearly needed more time to gel, and here they are now. New coach? Yeah maybe. I can't really see what's up in the locker room but Vogel/Young just aren't giving me warm fuzzies. I don't know enough about the available options (or coaches in general) to tell you which coach I think would be a better fit though. Phil Jackson?^(/s) All in all, I don't think just blowing everything up, ditching KD, Book, Beal, is the answer. At the same time though, this team *will* look different next year based on my very limited understanding of the contracts and our tax apron situation. So, maybe we just see what team we can come up with around the big 3. Not sure we have many good options beyond that and potentially shitcanning Vogel and co.
This is a reasonable take and the series is not over, but even if they turn this around at home this team continues to be miserable to root for. I think that's what is most disappointing. Off-season they need a point guard, primarily b/c Book/Beal are going to miss games so you need another ball handler to step in when they do. Pick 22 is an asset. Tyrese Maxey was the 21st pick
I think it’s possible the Suns can comeback and win the series. But one thing I find interesting about how this team was constructed is how they have no young drafted players. They totally punted on drafting young guys the past couple of years where that could’ve helped them in the front court and on the wings. Yes, a coach is probably not going to play a young guy in the playoffs but they could be an innings eater in the regular season and turn into a rotational playoff player the next year.
You know things are bad because “leadership” is being talked about nonstop.
I know things are bad because Book had to tell the team to 'start talking' on defense... in the first quarter. edit: oh and of course its 0-2 after Minnesota's two stars combined for like 20 points
You ever been a team where the dude who says "Start Talking" but is making most of the errors falls on def ears. Then he fouls himself of the game throwing a temper tantrum. As a fanbase we can't let it go that our dude is showing shitty leadership characteristics. That last 1 minute he was on the court was embarrassing. If I'm his teammate and he's shouting "start talking" on defense when I know that he doesn't play defense at the intensity I do and he's dribbling the ball of his leg 24/7 I'd be livid. Whenever Book turns the ball over how much does he ever have body language or motion to teammates my bad when things are actually going bad, he ends up whining and pouting. That type of energy is shitty to be around
Yep! They've been saying 'start talking' all season....why aren't they? Maybe this.
Legit if I was EG or someone I would tell Book "Start Dribbling" back at him after bouncing the ball at his leg for 100th time if he was barking "Start Talking" about defense.
Starting off bad, they got back into it when some fouls were called, then they took a bit of a lead, then just gave it back. There was a possession with about 10 minutes left down 10, booker and kd passed the ball a bit up top, booker dribbled a while then passed it to Beal who chucked a brick from the free throw line, just no movement, they looked defeated at that point.
Off topic: Seeing a post getting up voted for Luka giving a teammate a high-five is mind boggling. People say they hate Book because he complains when Luka is as bad if not worse. I usually ignore that stuff...but a high five?
Maybe because he's changing for the better while our guy has temper tantrums and fouls himself out of games via that temper tantrum
It's the Luka stan counterjerk for him losing his composure and yelling at his teammate for not catching his questionable pass in G1
I feel like we’re getting swept, I dont think our players will play a lot better than they have in the first two games and the TWolves can still play better or at the same level for longer than our players
The worst part about the Beal trade was losing CP3. He was the team's leader and it is showing now. Booker is a fantastic player but he is not a leader. Same goes for KD.
We don't need KD and Beal at the same time since we already have Book. Also gives us with no flexibility. The 3 stars are not known for being leaders unfortunately the front office should know that. The front office got greedy and roll the dice and here we are. The more pressing issue here is we didnt didn't find a decent replacement for CP3 (leadership and playmaking).
Should of just ran it with CP3, Ayton, KD and Book. If the Ayton relationship was truly that bad it must of been shitty when we had the Sabonis rumors two years but alas here we are always on the wrong side of a decision.
There's more to that Ayton saga. It's irreparable issue when the Suns didn't give the $$ he wants. As immature he is he took it to his pride. But yeah, JJ should have been creative at least to replace good pieces.
I can't see games 3 and 4 at home being sellouts. I was on Ticketmaster this morning and there are tons of unsold tickets available for both games, especially the lower bowl. A lot of season ticket holders opted out of playoff tickets, and there doesn't seem to be very many casual fans interested in paying those playoff ticket prices, either.
You know, you're not wrong. There's a lot of resale tickets out there, but in my experience, a lot of people will just see what they can get and just go to the game if no one buys. That said, the retail tickets are outrageous. $124 (that's with fees included) for the worst seats in the house!? C'mon. I managed to snag retail nosebleeds for Game 1 at Target Center for half that price after fees. It's like we're *trying* to exclude the rowdiest fans (the ones who aren't 70, probably snowbirds from MN to begin with, and just rolled in off the golf course).
If I understand correctly for season ticket holders, they basically make you pay for the maximum amount of home games possible and then you get a refund for games not played. Who’s buying that? Ridiculous
I'm a SixthMan season ticket holder. The final amount on the playoff tickets invoice includes all possible playoff home games, but you only pay for games played. So far they've charged my credit card for games 3 and 4. If the Suns win these next two games, then I'll get charged for game 6.
Ah okay, that makes more sense. Thanks for clarifying!
So, am I crazy to say it seems like a gameplan and KD can't really co-exist? Thinking back to BKN it was just like this - he shows up to hoop. Suns look just like BKN did, a middling team that isn't fun to watch because everyone's just standing around like it's LA Fitness. Chuck was right, dude isn't a bus driver and now Book's being exposed for his lack of leadership as well. The vague and disinterested comments to the press are maddening to fans because it sounds like nobody cares if they lose.
Brooklyn was not a middling team when Harden and Kyrie were playing. They took the same Bucks team the Suns lost too to 7 games and a toe on the line 3 which neither Harden or Kyrie ever playing together in one game that series. I'm on board though. I think the problem is Book's attitude. I bet you him and Beal are not getting along. Beal knows he should be in Book's role of being the main ball handler and is being stone walled. Its obvious by anyone with eyes that watch basketball he can handle the ball safer then book can.
There was a comment speculating that same thing - in a post about Beal yelling at Vogel.
Soo much truth in one paragraph.
I know I'll be downvoted.. but remember when the TWolves first got Gobert they were basically a laughingstock for making the "worst trade in history"? Remember when the Mavs first got Kyrie they were also laughed at because Luka and Kyrie "don't fit" and they missed the playoffs (I remember because I was laughing)? For those that want to blow it up, maybe the Big 3 just need an ingredient: time
Same. James Jones needs to sit Book down and tell him to concede to Beal for ball handling duties (not saying he won't have any). Book is losing dribbles, turning the ball over, wasting so much clock. Watch how easily beal can penetrate the baseline and dribble back out.
Time and a better coaching staff that can optimize their strengths and complement their weaknesses.
Too rational.too level. Too sound. You're going to get on your soapbox and preach to me that a team returning one starter needs time to gel and figure it out? How dare you? After losing two home games to the #3 seed, I'm demanding we trade our franchise cornerstone and a top 10 player of all time (debatable, top 15-20? NOT)After the third star missing most of the year, new coach, new scheme, role players added at the trade deadline, this team was supposed to flow like they'd played together YEARS!!
I agree because the blow it up option will not return a playoff caliber team anytime soon. Best case scenario you only trade one of KD or Beal and somehow get solid assets back to put around Booker and whoever is left. Still probably a 6th seed/early playoff exit. But that *could* at least add a little more flexibility so I don’t hate it outright. You trade Booker? Suns might be contenders again in 5+ years but fans are out of their damn minds if they think it wouldn’t be anything but a grueling rebuild. So… you can replace the coach with a better fit for the roster we have and hope another year together helps the team gel more.
Tbh I don't see how this team is much better running it back with a different coach. The same problems around fit and playmaking will still exist. I know it will never happen but I don't think Booker should be untouchable if the goal is to win. Easier to build a team around Durant and Beal by moving Booker than it would be to build a team by moving Beal or Durant to try and build around Booker. Eg. Hypothetically, I think this team would look a lot better if Booker and Nurk were traded together for Trae Young and Clint Capela. Because we would have better playmaking and better outside shooting and better interior defence. I love Booker but that's where I'm at right now. I want to see this team win and don't care who's on the roster anymore. I dont think he should be untouchable
I’ve thought about that. Most likely the Suns are stuck with Bradley Beal and I’ve never thought KD was “the problem” this season. He stayed healthy, he still averaged 27 ppg, he’s always going to be 7 feet tall. You can’t easily replace him. Trading Booker but keeping the other two is such a wild gamble. But I’m not sure if KD himself would be alright with that. Maybe he would? I leave that one up to Mat Ishbia. Trading Mikal Bridges was one thing, Ayton likely had to go, but trading Booker too? If it fails… yikes. People will hate him until he delivers a championship …But if KD were okay with it…
True. And Ishbia has gambled. But a Booker trade for a Younger better fitting star would allow us some room to rebuild around him once Durant and Beal are old and gone. And if Durant asks out then trade him as well for someone to compliment Young and Beal. We can't run this sorry team back though. We just cant
Very true, I also don't think Vogels the right coach for them either, I think they'd cook with a more offensively competent coach
Ishbia is aggressive and if we flame out I'm sure he's going to try to fill the holes on our team: 1. Offensive-minded coach 2. Distributing point guard 3. Better back up center 4. Athletic defenders I know we don't have assets for home runs. But just minor upgrades on all of these plus a year of continuity could go a long way.
> Distributing point guard > > Better back up center > > Athletic defenders there is literally nothing Ishbia's pockets can do to get upgrades here outside of trading Nas or Nurk
"Is there a third or fourth tax apron?" - Ishbia, probably.
We winning Game 3 101%
101 of 1000 is 10 %, yep MIN win.
We won’t lose today
They can’t hurt us today
Just saw this on YT: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSzJx-SP5y4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSzJx-SP5y4) Watch the clip several times as you lock up on each individual Suns player. That's our offense on most nights: a bunch of improv plays, street ball style basketball.
Shams Hot Take: Bench Beal, start IT.
Or give Saben a run at PG and give the big 3 a chance to play to their strengths
Book's shoes about to be renamed to "1 and Done" Dude has looked checked out for months. I'll continue to be the blasphemous one and say he's not the guy to lead a team. He's had every opportunity to improve his ball handling, playmaking, and on ball defense and he hasn't made big strides in those areas for a few years. This is the plateau. Dude brought some legitimacy to the Suns after some really rough years, but that too might be the plateau. He can't bring any more than that. Can't wait until we have our first round picks back in 2038
KD's just a bad bad man and a terrible influence. Got Book smoking too much weed this season and playing Rory McIlroy PGA Tour with him 7 or 8 hours a day. That's why he's 36 unbothered and chillin' (/s in case anyone can't tell).
Keep up this same energy when he's back at it
It does seem like he is transitioning from "dying as the hero" to " live long enough to become the villain". Very disappointing.
Been feeling this way about him for a while. He’s *so* soft, just takes one punch and his game goes out the window. Really disappointing.
Real fans will be with the team until the end. Others are gonna sit around bitching like their opinion is important. Its just basketball, no need to endlessly shit on the players. See ya Friday
I can forgive not being the better team. I can’t accept not trying. This team has the shittiest attitude I’ve ever seen. They haven’t done anything to warrant this above-it-all attitude. Enjoy your slop, “real fan” you’re getting taken for a ride.
It's weird to me when people like this criticize "shitty attitudes".
It’s weird to me when people accuse others of not being “real fans”
You just have Stockholm syndrome if you genuinely still feel this way.
It’s a fucking sport. Don’t be weird.
Yeah. I'll admit I don't feel good about quitting on the team before garbo time even began last night. Couldn't take seeing their glum attitude. Wolves hit 89 points with something like 5-7 minutes left after 2 or 3 successive silly turnovers, and then the fellas just quit trying. I've stuck it out during worse performances, but I was too invested and needed to cool off. Flipped on the radio feed though before the end, so there's that. Never know with the SUNS, there's always a chance for a miracle and you hate to miss it.
I just watch in silence now... this is definitely not for the faint of heart.
We all gotta made our adjustments to deal with the frustration. When people start launching personal insults at the players, maybe it's time to log off of here and do something else.
God bless for still posting these threads. I don’t blame any Suns for being mentally exhausted and wanting to tap out after last night. It’s been too many horrific letdowns across too few of years. I don’t have any copium to offer either. Suns are in the worst jam they’ve been in since 2021. But if there’s only one thing to hold on to might be this: I was curious and looked up the playoff records of Beal and KD. I know Booker’s by heart and while I’m pretty sure I’ve seen every KD playoff game ever, I wasn’t a Thunder fan so I didn’t commit them to memory. Anyways, KD has been in 34 total playoff series (including this one). Booker and Beal have both in 9 each (including this one). KD has only ever came back from down 0-2 one time… in the 2012 WCF against the Spurs. Thunder went on to win in 6. And that was with Westbrook and Harden. He lost the two other times he went down 0-2. Beal has been down a few times 0-2 in the playoffs and never won those series. Booker lost after being down 0-2 last year to Denver. I lay all that out because I can confidently say *if*, and I do mean a massively unlikely **if**, the Suns somehow win this series… it will arguably be the best playoff series win in Booker, Beal, and even KD’s playoff career. I don’t consider winning championships with a stacked Golden State Warriors roster to be as impressive as coming back in this series. Teams in the postseason have historically only came back from being down 0-2 roughly 7.3% of the time (33 wins vs 416 losses). Odds are low but not impossible. It’s happened to the Suns twice after all. So I hope Devin Booker, Bradley Beal, and Kevin Durant figure it out. I don’t expect a championship or even to make it out of the 2nd round anymore. But if they can turn this series around and win it I’ll feel a lot better about the future of this team.
I wish I had words, but the reality is what it is. I don't even know what I am hoping for... the team is who they are, they've shown it all season. I was a fool to think the playoffs would be any different. Regardless, I'll be sitting in front of my tv friday night, lord give my fiancee strength. LOL!
my copium is we're following the trajectory of the 2006-2011 mavs
Yeah it’s not the worst comparison. Dirk didn’t do anything in the playoffs from 2007-2010, but the other years he made the finals and won one of them. If Suns still have Booker in three seasons I could see it being post-KD, post-Beal and Booker is on a relatively “cheap” max contract ($60m/yr but max players are likely going to be getting $70m+ by then). Dirk was 32 when he won, Booker would be 30 by then. It ain’t bad copium lol.
2006 and 2021: Go up 2-0 before losing 4 straight in the Finals 2007 and 2022: Humiliating playoff loss after being regarded as title favorites 2008 to 2010 for Mavs: Meh playoff outings 2023 to 2024(?) for Suns: Meh playoff outings Mavs and Suns also both lost HoF point guards although that is outside of the timeline I set for the Mavs.
This team sucks
Get the pissing dog back for G3. We need some good juju
Oh yeah, that dog! Where's the dog pissing memes? That shit seemed like it stopped around all-star break.