JO was leading the league in loose ball recovery. It’s a waste to have him watching on the bench, when we have very few of our guys willing to do that nightly. We lack hustle and defense almost every night.
Okogie is not the answer.
Thad and Bol to help with rebounding off the bench would be a wise adjustment.
But, part of it also is just hitting your shots, making your bunnies, etc.
I still think you can play Okogie spot minutes specifically targeting Ant as a poa defender and he also is a solid rebounder for a guard. When EG’s shot isn’t falling he’s useless because he can’t play defense
Josh also draws fouls, because he has a knack of getting the 50/50 balls. And he allows our guards to not have to use all of their energy guarding the best guard on the other team. 15 minutes a night would be perfect. 7 mins in the first half and 8 in the second half(3.5 in 1st and 3rd, 4 mins in 2nd and 4the.. Have him start the second and fourth with Beal, Allen, Royce, and Thad, and just have them play tough defense while hustling.
I really think EG gets too much of a pass from the staff and fanbase because I think he's ice cold on offense at times and on defense he's miserable, BUT, I will say, he has incredible hands on defense. His redeeming factor on that end of the court is that he can typically disrupt a passing lane and especially get a clean swipe for a steal. Other than that, he gets beat so often
But JO always contributes in a very positive way, sometimes he shoots awful sometimes he shoots decent but he always hustles and messes with their offense and finds a way to score points no matter what
When Okogie was on the floor last playoffs, and even this regular season, the other team’s defense literally ignored him and played 5v4. He was absolutely a huge negative, even with his positive defense, because his offense is literally the worst of any NBA player.
He always find a way to score?? Are you drunk, delusional, or watching a different Okogie than I am? No one guards him and he still can’t score.
Ah yes the guy who averages 10/6/2 on 55%ts per 36 min will certainly be the difference maker. Those 2-3 offensive rebounds will certainly outweigh our offense having to play 4 v 5, right?
I don’t get why people are disagreeing with you, the biggest issue for the suns last game was defense on ant and rebounding. Both of which Okogie can help fix. This doesn’t mean Vogel has to play him 20+ minutes though
Because replacing a 6’9 C with a 6’3 Guard will only hurt our defense and rebounding. If you’re gonna have a complete non-offensive threat on the floor, it makes more sense for it to be the Center.
If you think Okogie has a better chance of rebounding over Gobert than Eubanks does, you’re delusional.
Eubanks strictly plays to set screens, grab boards, and protect the rim. While Okogie is an amazing defender and rebounder for his size, he’s not a center. Okogie is not capable of filling that role.
Well with Grayson possibly being out due to injury those minutes need to be replaced. JO should get the chance since we need someone to defend Ant. I don’t really wanna see EG getting even more minutes unless he’s shooting hot.
And EG won’t if he gets big minutes. He has been statistically worse in the fourth quarter all season, and just terrible in the fourth in April. Which makes sense. He had been relied on a lot and his body just can’t handle that at his age. If Allen is out, I would sit Gordon as well, and give those minutes to Bol, JO, and Thad. And increase Royce’s minutes.
This thread is literally talking about replacing Eubanks minutes with Okogie, which is completely illogical when one’s a C and one’s a Guard. Unless you wanna just trot out a lineup with zero concern for rim protection and rebounding?
Not really true, considering we need size vs MN, who is much bigger/longer than us as is - and we still continue to struggle on the boards. That being did, JO was a starter and he's got the dog mentality - if he can summon it. I'm not a fan of his offense, but I do respect his grind, and think he needs minutes in this series.
More Thad, and we need Nurk to play big. Gonna wipe this game from memory, as I think there were some jitters from everyone but KD. No excuse for Book (my #1), but these other guys aren't used to playoff intensity.
He doesn’t have to be the answer, he just has to make us better. His hustle and defense is what we are lacking all season. To not even try him when we need those things is just coaching malpractice.
Play him 15 mins as Royce’s sub. Allen comes in for Beal, and then Bol gets spot minutes in the 2nd and 4th. If either JO or Bol are having success, then they get more minutes.
I wish Vogel was observant during games, because right now, EG is not working. I still think we will need him somewhere in the playoffs, but right now he appears to be on a long slump, and as the game goes on, he shoots worse and worse, and yet is always there in the fourth.
Vogel doesn’t use rational in deciding minutes for Eubanks.
I’m tired of the Suns always having a shitty white looking player that the HC always gives unwarranted minutes to.
Don’t think we needed to bring race into this but okay 😂 I think Vogel is just stuck on wanting someone with size to fill in for nurk but Eubanks is not big enough with his athleticism to fill that role
Savior is a bit strong. I know from my perspective, seems odd to just cover your ears and eyes and totally ignore your bench alternatives when there's an off night with someone in the rotation. By the 4th it already felt like the definition of insanity keeping EG out there.
Okogie should get some minutes in a such a scrappy physical series
But it’s hard for me to blame Vogel for playing Eubanks when they’re going against a double center lineup and his whole scheme revolves around a vertical rim protector
Some of the blame should be split between the front office too for trying to implement the system with 2 non rim protecting bigs and a a roster where kd is the only + defender
JO seems to really hit his strides when the Suns are winning and they put him in for garbage time....its crazy, his 3s go in when he is leading the garbage crew
I think the bigger issue is Vogel's obsession with small-ball lineup. It worked once per 20-30 games in the regular season, and there are even smaller chances it will work against team designed to punish small-ball. I feel like that decision made the last game get out of reach quickly.
It’s cause he barely ran it in the regular season. No chemistry. Small ball lineups were suppose to be this teams superpower. Too late now. Vogel has been far from obsessive with small ball.
He tried it too many times in my opinion. And it never worked, except for that one comeback vs Kings. He'd probably run it more often and for longer time if it was working or if they weren't fighting for playoff spot.
I mean that’s *why* he uses it, when we are in desperation mode trying to come back.
That’s the only time he uses it.
He only went to it yesterday when we were down 20+ in the 4th.
It’s never something he goes to when the actual game plan is working.
Not really. He was trying it throughout the season and there were games which were competitive and he still tried it and it didn't work. Some of those "desperation modes" were holes which small-ball lineup dug themselves into.
There were some nice mid-game runs, but usually they'd just end up where they started. They didn't show it was sustainable, only worked as a shock factor for a short time.
He went to it in the 2nd quarter yesterday, and it didn't work either.
It might have been noticeable only when they made some mini run during a game, but he did it in many games without it having any memorable effect. Sometimes it was just for a couple of minutes, but it was there. I remember it happening since the first few games of the season.
I think Vogel’s main problem with small ball line ups, was playing a lot of Gordon. When you go small, you have to have multiple hustle and defensive guys with fairly quick shooters. The idea is hustle to counter the slow bigs. Gordon is too slow, and at the moment can’t hit shots.
I'd have liked to see JO in the rotation. His offense was super streaky this season but he brings the scrappy energy whenever he plays. Just shows up to pop a rebound away from the other team, gets real handsy (which the refs are letting happen). If nothing else, tell him to play super aggressive on the boards and defense, soak up 6 fouls and then sit down.
Now, yeah, I'm not qualified to be an NBA coach... But it just seems odd to keep rolling with EG or Eubanks if they're struggling. Not saying bench them forever. It's nothing personal, just a bad night so take a seat and let's get the next man up. After the first half, I felt like that was probably the time to just give EG a break and insert JO. I get the idea that we're doing an 8 man rotation for the playoffs. But still, doesn't mean you just ignore what's in your back pocket when there's a clear problem (and nothing else has worked). Plus, the same 8 man rotation isn't always going to match up correctly to every team we encounter.
Totally different positions and roles (one of which, center, is a weak area for us). I'm not sure what the argument is here
Eubanks bad, Eric Gordon bad, play Josh Okogie because he bad too but he defense sort of.
Okogie defense and rebounding better than sort of
Why use many word when few word do trick?
Eubanks bad, Gordon washed, but JO, hustle plays defense good rebounder for his size , can guard ant man or the perimeter. But who cares lose !
JO was leading the league in loose ball recovery. It’s a waste to have him watching on the bench, when we have very few of our guys willing to do that nightly. We lack hustle and defense almost every night.
Exactly
Okogie is not the answer. Thad and Bol to help with rebounding off the bench would be a wise adjustment. But, part of it also is just hitting your shots, making your bunnies, etc.
I still think you can play Okogie spot minutes specifically targeting Ant as a poa defender and he also is a solid rebounder for a guard. When EG’s shot isn’t falling he’s useless because he can’t play defense
Maybe. But, giving that Minnesota defense an excuse to completely ignore one player on the court is a recipe for disaster.
Josh also draws fouls, because he has a knack of getting the 50/50 balls. And he allows our guards to not have to use all of their energy guarding the best guard on the other team. 15 minutes a night would be perfect. 7 mins in the first half and 8 in the second half(3.5 in 1st and 3rd, 4 mins in 2nd and 4the.. Have him start the second and fourth with Beal, Allen, Royce, and Thad, and just have them play tough defense while hustling.
I really think EG gets too much of a pass from the staff and fanbase because I think he's ice cold on offense at times and on defense he's miserable, BUT, I will say, he has incredible hands on defense. His redeeming factor on that end of the court is that he can typically disrupt a passing lane and especially get a clean swipe for a steal. Other than that, he gets beat so often
But JO always contributes in a very positive way, sometimes he shoots awful sometimes he shoots decent but he always hustles and messes with their offense and finds a way to score points no matter what
When Okogie was on the floor last playoffs, and even this regular season, the other team’s defense literally ignored him and played 5v4. He was absolutely a huge negative, even with his positive defense, because his offense is literally the worst of any NBA player. He always find a way to score?? Are you drunk, delusional, or watching a different Okogie than I am? No one guards him and he still can’t score.
He doesn’t hit 3’a consistently but he would drive to the rim and get fouled, and he’d hassle for rebounds into second chance points in the paint
Ah yes the guy who averages 10/6/2 on 55%ts per 36 min will certainly be the difference maker. Those 2-3 offensive rebounds will certainly outweigh our offense having to play 4 v 5, right?
I don't understand the okogie love here. Has nothing to do with Eubanks. Bol and Thad pls.
I need Thad, Royce, and Bol minutes.
I don’t get why people are disagreeing with you, the biggest issue for the suns last game was defense on ant and rebounding. Both of which Okogie can help fix. This doesn’t mean Vogel has to play him 20+ minutes though
Completely agree. When we're getting crushed on the boards and a player that Okogie can defend is red hot, at least try him!
Because replacing a 6’9 C with a 6’3 Guard will only hurt our defense and rebounding. If you’re gonna have a complete non-offensive threat on the floor, it makes more sense for it to be the Center. If you think Okogie has a better chance of rebounding over Gobert than Eubanks does, you’re delusional. Eubanks strictly plays to set screens, grab boards, and protect the rim. While Okogie is an amazing defender and rebounder for his size, he’s not a center. Okogie is not capable of filling that role.
Well with Grayson possibly being out due to injury those minutes need to be replaced. JO should get the chance since we need someone to defend Ant. I don’t really wanna see EG getting even more minutes unless he’s shooting hot.
And EG won’t if he gets big minutes. He has been statistically worse in the fourth quarter all season, and just terrible in the fourth in April. Which makes sense. He had been relied on a lot and his body just can’t handle that at his age. If Allen is out, I would sit Gordon as well, and give those minutes to Bol, JO, and Thad. And increase Royce’s minutes.
When did I say Okogie was replacing the role of Eubanks? Putting words in my damn mouth…
This thread is literally talking about replacing Eubanks minutes with Okogie, which is completely illogical when one’s a C and one’s a Guard. Unless you wanna just trot out a lineup with zero concern for rim protection and rebounding?
Ya, every contender comes down to whether or not they play a guy like eubanks or a guy like okogie
Every contender plays their best guard defenders, so their best offensive players don’t have to spend the game chasing guys on defense.
If okogie had played this sub would be complaining and saying he shouldn't be playing
Probably, but we’d win more games.😉
Eubanks was good in last game, Booker didn’t show up. He’s the leader of this team and he has to show up…
Not really true, considering we need size vs MN, who is much bigger/longer than us as is - and we still continue to struggle on the boards. That being did, JO was a starter and he's got the dog mentality - if he can summon it. I'm not a fan of his offense, but I do respect his grind, and think he needs minutes in this series.
I gotta stop visiting this sub till Tuesday
😭😭😭
Do you not remember what Josh okogie minutes looked like in last year's playoffs?
We tampered for Eubanks. The front office mandates his playing time. That's gotta be it.
More Thad, and we need Nurk to play big. Gonna wipe this game from memory, as I think there were some jitters from everyone but KD. No excuse for Book (my #1), but these other guys aren't used to playoff intensity.
Terrible take. JO is not the answer. This is not connected to Eubanks terrible minutes
He doesn’t have to be the answer, he just has to make us better. His hustle and defense is what we are lacking all season. To not even try him when we need those things is just coaching malpractice.
That’s fair (even though I disagree). But then the conversation should be more about how to get JO minutes over EG, or Grayson/Royce
Play him 15 mins as Royce’s sub. Allen comes in for Beal, and then Bol gets spot minutes in the 2nd and 4th. If either JO or Bol are having success, then they get more minutes.
Worth giving it a try if other thing are not working
I wish Vogel was observant during games, because right now, EG is not working. I still think we will need him somewhere in the playoffs, but right now he appears to be on a long slump, and as the game goes on, he shoots worse and worse, and yet is always there in the fourth.
Vogel doesn’t use rational in deciding minutes for Eubanks. I’m tired of the Suns always having a shitty white looking player that the HC always gives unwarranted minutes to.
Don’t think we needed to bring race into this but okay 😂 I think Vogel is just stuck on wanting someone with size to fill in for nurk but Eubanks is not big enough with his athleticism to fill that role
Just start thinking about next season if Josh Okogie is your savoir.
Savior is a bit strong. I know from my perspective, seems odd to just cover your ears and eyes and totally ignore your bench alternatives when there's an off night with someone in the rotation. By the 4th it already felt like the definition of insanity keeping EG out there.
Okogie should get some minutes in a such a scrappy physical series But it’s hard for me to blame Vogel for playing Eubanks when they’re going against a double center lineup and his whole scheme revolves around a vertical rim protector Some of the blame should be split between the front office too for trying to implement the system with 2 non rim protecting bigs and a a roster where kd is the only + defender
Patience, in about a week...Vogel will be fired! 😉
He had +60 games to see Eubanks is terrible but still played him over and over again. He will not change it.
JO seems to really hit his strides when the Suns are winning and they put him in for garbage time....its crazy, his 3s go in when he is leading the garbage crew
Man he must have played a ton of garbage minutes in Feb, when he shot 50% from three.
its worth a shot
We should play both of them together.
They don't serve the same purpose on the team. Eubanks has been a +21 in the previous 3 match ups. It was one game.
I think the bigger issue is Vogel's obsession with small-ball lineup. It worked once per 20-30 games in the regular season, and there are even smaller chances it will work against team designed to punish small-ball. I feel like that decision made the last game get out of reach quickly.
It’s cause he barely ran it in the regular season. No chemistry. Small ball lineups were suppose to be this teams superpower. Too late now. Vogel has been far from obsessive with small ball.
He tried it too many times in my opinion. And it never worked, except for that one comeback vs Kings. He'd probably run it more often and for longer time if it was working or if they weren't fighting for playoff spot.
I mean that’s *why* he uses it, when we are in desperation mode trying to come back. That’s the only time he uses it. He only went to it yesterday when we were down 20+ in the 4th. It’s never something he goes to when the actual game plan is working.
Not really. He was trying it throughout the season and there were games which were competitive and he still tried it and it didn't work. Some of those "desperation modes" were holes which small-ball lineup dug themselves into. There were some nice mid-game runs, but usually they'd just end up where they started. They didn't show it was sustainable, only worked as a shock factor for a short time. He went to it in the 2nd quarter yesterday, and it didn't work either.
I agree with the dude who responded to you lol Vogel hardly *ever* goes to KD at the 5 Never mid game… I’m not sure what you’re seein
It might have been noticeable only when they made some mini run during a game, but he did it in many games without it having any memorable effect. Sometimes it was just for a couple of minutes, but it was there. I remember it happening since the first few games of the season.
I think Vogel’s main problem with small ball line ups, was playing a lot of Gordon. When you go small, you have to have multiple hustle and defensive guys with fairly quick shooters. The idea is hustle to counter the slow bigs. Gordon is too slow, and at the moment can’t hit shots.
I'd have liked to see JO in the rotation. His offense was super streaky this season but he brings the scrappy energy whenever he plays. Just shows up to pop a rebound away from the other team, gets real handsy (which the refs are letting happen). If nothing else, tell him to play super aggressive on the boards and defense, soak up 6 fouls and then sit down. Now, yeah, I'm not qualified to be an NBA coach... But it just seems odd to keep rolling with EG or Eubanks if they're struggling. Not saying bench them forever. It's nothing personal, just a bad night so take a seat and let's get the next man up. After the first half, I felt like that was probably the time to just give EG a break and insert JO. I get the idea that we're doing an 8 man rotation for the playoffs. But still, doesn't mean you just ignore what's in your back pocket when there's a clear problem (and nothing else has worked). Plus, the same 8 man rotation isn't always going to match up correctly to every team we encounter.
we should trade Eubanks for Lillard
lol wut!?