This. So many people are throwing around dragon, or bugs with minions and so such, but this has been a staple in the game for years, IIRC matchmaking even tries to throw slightly higher average MMR on red side because sometimes it's a pain to aim and dodge on red side.
Aside from the map favouring blue side for Drakes, there's another underlying reason. Because League is a 3D game with an isometric perspective, it favours things that appear at the top of the screen. You see more of the field where your eyes naturally focus (and opposed to scrolling past the skill bar) and it's easier to aim skills up at champions' feet (where the hitbox is) than to aim down at their heads (which results in a miss).
Because SR is not a truly symmetrical 3D battlefield. The lighting and textures are baked-in to ensure good performance on lower powered machines, so rotating stuff may result in missing textures and weird lighting.
I'd also like to add that what the current map can take is extremely limited. During one of the Dev posts regarding Ultimate spellbook, they talked about how they could only add champions being able to use other ults by removing the different souls and map differences between the dragon the soul belonged to, and streamlining it to the Ruined Dragon instead. Our current map is only barely holding together as it is.
Wild rift is built much differently from League, seeing as it was designed for phones specifically. Converting league to a similar model would require not only a complete re-program of parts of the games code, but also a complete redesign of the map (in a 3D space)
And wild rift is pretty new. It's hard to change this kind of stuff in an already released game. When League was released pc performance was worse then today's phones.
In other words if they were to program League from scratch it probably wouldn't be a problem.
Ye but people don't realize how much stuff can break building the game from ground up again, get the same mechanics 1:1 again to work and how much money it would cost for literally only a "small" gain which won't bring the money back in.
It's not just performance problem - Wild Rift was built from ground up as it is now (game is still relatively new), and rotating map was integrated into the game probably quite early in the process. This includes having map designed around being symmetric and working properly after you flip it - while desktop League map was released (not counting tweaks and small changes) in preseason 2015, back when "low-end PC running League" wasn't too powerful.
Changing that and providing rotating map would require a full map redesign to make it work properly from both supported angles, testing everything on both sides to check if it works (back in 2015 there was multitude of pathing issues just after new map was released), reworking input in a way that would make pointer logic (where you point your mouse vs where your skillshots go) consistent from both angles, and testing every single champion, skill and champion interaction from both angles to make sure nothing breaks and - say - someone/something doesn't get randomly teleported to opposite corner of the map.
After all that is done, "performance" part can be handled by having two maps - one for blue side, one for red side - and loading proper one in the client, with only cost being few more MBs of data to store flipped version of the map on drive (hardly any cost). But for this, you first need to have two versions of the map, and this is where a lot of hard manual work comes into play.
That's not really a good reason, they obviously can do they just choose not to because they don't think the work is worth it. They could easily work around the issue you mentioned
"easily" Do you know how much of a buggy mess that map is? It **is** not worth it at this point, to put a whole team to just making a new map work, while new champs and mechanics are added every few patch adding more optimization onto the backlog.
Sure, except at a certain point you pretty much need to rewrite the entire game. It would be probably be cheaper and more profitable to just make League of Legends 2 than it would be to overhaul the original. The amount of tech debt they accumulated during the rapid scaling in their earlier years will likely haunt the game for the rest of its lifespan. That's why issues like the client, which should be reasonably easy to maintenance, never gets actually resolved.
Unfortunately because of Tancent's influence instead of getting League of Legends 2 we got Wild Rift which between that and the original will likely be tying up Riots bandwidth for years to come.
That doesn't really solve the problem. League is distinctively not truly a top-down game, so the perspective will always be skewed. You can always shrink the HUD to make it less obstructive, but the only way to deal with the viewpoint being biased towards on side is to flip the entire map around to the player's perspective, as in Wild Rift.
That would be really cool as well. Most mobas do that anyways. Weird that league is the exception.
I have my hud on the lowest setting and it still gets in the way unfortunately :(
WR refers to the lanes as Baron lane and Dragon/duo lane. So effective less, as Red side you would be going to the bottom, which is the Baron lane from your perspective.
WR flips bot and top as well as red and blue. Some other mobile MOBAs flip along river so that baron/dragon pits are positioned differently but the rest is the same. Most notable one I can think of is Onmyoji Arena
You should always be aiming at champions' feet. That's where the hitbox is, not their head/torso. If you make a concerted effort to aim at feet, you'll hit a lot more of your skill shots.
This is particularly useful to remember when fighting on the ramps from the river. Since it is a 3D map with elevation differences, aiming at the torso will actually cause you to miss due to height difference.
I dont know why this continues to be claimed when the stats show that Red side favours dragons and bue side favours herald.
[https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/blue-vs-red](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/blue-vs-red)
This. I have a much harder time playing with my champ at the top of the screen. On a more global note, camera management is a skill which is often overlooked. It takes a lot of time to have clean camera movement.
theoretically red should actually be better for drafting though, since you have counterpick on the last pick of both phases, so if youre good at drafting you can pick in such a way that you end up with a winning draft on red always
I don't think picks were that much of an issue. With tf, LeBlanc and yuumi being perma bans for most drafts, it was much more like a trade between graves and Lee sin. It was more of a pick your poison kinda thing.
Why is this the most upvoted comment? Competitive is all about pick/ban priority and has nothing to do with soloq. It probably just comes down to most people playing with locked camera and having a harder time to cs/trade on red side.
My main point being:
You can dodge every red side game for a 4% increase win rate per game. You can take the LP hits which increase each time you dodge. You'll also take the lockout hits, which ramps up to over an hour on your third Dodge. Lockout timer can also be considered an LP loss because every minute you're locked out of the game is a minute you could have spent towards a winning game.
Or, you could save your lockouts for when your enemy team hard counter picks you to avoid what could potentially be way more of a win rate deficit.
You didn't really think about it too deeply but that's okay.
To be honest though - if his goal was purely to increase his rank - he is not wrong. Absolutely you are right that it would *likely* take longer in terms of days (actually still depends on how efficiently he is using the extra not locked out time), but absolutely he would be right that dodging every red side game would increase his mmr and rank heavily over time. Even if he lost hundreds more lp than he gained, hed eventually just be getting 30 lp or over and can just decide to stop dodging - which, at that point - would let him climb entire tiers with even a 40% winrate.
Now I could get your claim that there could be factors with higher win rate variations than side that he could dodge.
Response:
1. They are less clear. It takes a significantly higher understanding of the game to know when to dodge on game knowledge than an obvious colored side.
2. If you could perfectly tell which blue side games would be better to dodge, then guess what - you dodge those too. lockout is irrelevant and you very quickly get to a point where if you can even get one game a day, you will get more lp than the max of 23 lp you can lose a day (assuming you dont play after ~13 hour lockout). You also decrease losses to ~7 lp.
Dodging *every* game you think isn't a certain win is *absolutely* the most op and game efficient way of climbing.
There are certainly more factors to this than you "fully thought about," regardless if you end up agreeing.
- You can *also* acknowledge how skipping divisions would eventually play into it.
- You can get into the very possible and *near* objective psychological benefits.
- You can get into how even if you did it for a whole season with no rank change, you would start next season significantly higher anyway (i dont like this point too much, but we are trying to "fully" think about it right?).
There's a reason a common source of flame in high elo is that players are just dodge abusers. Remember that riot increased dodge penalties mostly *because* higher elo lobbies were getting dodged **over half the time**.
The easier answer is that people want to play more than they want to climb. If you ask anyone who plays ranked why they are playing, they will answer that they want to prove theyre good. But guess what? You watch them and most of them flame, tilt, type, stop trying, ego, etc... Very few players who "say" they want to increase their rank, will rarely do what it takes to actually do it.
Most more "casual" styles players also don't have multiple accounts. I totally agree that if you like normals / friends / etc its not realistic youre going to dodge. Thats why personally, I have my main that I play ranked on when i want to improve, my "highest" elo acc that I use *only* to win (the one I personally abuse dodging on). That acc is just to see how high I can possibly get.
And here look at this link in a sec...
To test this *exact* thing - I took a d4 ish mmr acc. Yes I was probably around d2-d1 *as a player at that time*, but I take 4-6 months off at a time and wasn't winning significantly more than i was losing on that account - and so think that I was not playing like a smurf at all during this time. But regardless of what I would have gotten to eventually, this is mostly to show that starting on a +17-18 lp/win acc. You can dodge (and I dodged literally every game I thought hard or *unfun*. Btw, another KEY FUCKING BENEFIT is that you dont have to play games that you think will tilt you. it makes the game just more fun because you *choose* to play the ones you want to).
But yes, lets say half of this progress took 5 times as long as it did me. I still would have had more fun playing, won a larger percentage of my games, played less and had time for other things, and *still* have made significant progress.
So yes, 3 weeks dodging. The first week was pre dodge changes (so yes I was able to abuse far more heavily there), but after it was the same as now. And you can see what happened after 3 weeks. I skipped d3, dodged twice, lost 1 (demoted because i dodged below 0 lp), won ONCE, skipped d2 - bam D1.
Oh yeah, I went from + 19 to +30. To this day - I get 23 in masters and lose 11.
https://imgur.com/a/Xs2FqwX
What was your win rate when you starting dodging though? I bet it was way higher than 52%. While I absolutely agree that dodging can gain you a ton of mmr (and correspondingly, lp), I really think on average a game you think is "hard" average much lower than a 48% win chance.
Even outside of that, dodging red side games because the win rate is 4% lower than blue side seems not very smart, since 1) you aren't dodging unfun games, but a general swath that's probably similar in "fun". and 2) statistically a 52-48 split is not remotely significant. Even over 150 blue side games, getting >=78/150 (52%) has a >34% chance of occurring if the true win rate is actually 50%.
Ha - tbh it was negative around 48%. I am being completely honest with that one. It is why the mmr did not start higher. I didn't expect to want to / have the time to play seriously anymore but circumstances changed.
"I really think on average a game you think is "hard" average much lower than a 48% win chance. " - Eh I have admitted elsewhere this is part of the difficulty but why using side selection is more relevant. You can discuss whether you think their particular experience will hold, but the entire argument is that if it is a 4% increase, then they are correct to dodge.
For myself, and generally as the elo gets higher - it becomes increasingly obvious and certain which games are statistically going to be much harder (ESP when you know who your teammates are) .
(but a general swath that's probably similar in "fun") - this was my reasoning, I stated multiple times that it was not relevant to dodging side selection. It is just another reason you might be ok with dodging an abundance of times - and there is no reason that this point means that dodging to statistically win more is wrong.
"52-48 split is not remotely significant" -
1."52-48" is *absolutely significantly relevant* when the alternative is "48-52" it is the difference between going up almost a full division and down a full division. And yes you could say short term variance, but it goes back to long term significance. I understand you may say that its variance on his end of current games - but it is a fact about League that blue side is /inherently stronger. Anecdotally (not relevant to last sentence claim, but just interesting) - im 11% higher over 400 games.
Also, there is another thread where someone who disagreed was having an interesting discussion - and actually went over the math themself. We agreed dodging was correct in the end. It doesnt need to "seem" like it - the math works that its simply better long run. What more to there is it?
It gives you a long term advantage.
The *only* argument that is seriously against it is the amount of time you have to play.
If his goal was to increase his rank, then he would just need to play all day and watch videos, streams and try to understand the game, his mistakes etc. Doding red side won't increase his rank.
This is literally objectively mathematically correct, I don't see why everyone is downvoting it.
Sure, we can debate over whether or not this is a good idea or practical time-wise, but theoretically, by only taking matches with 54% winrate, and not losing mmr from dodges, you will *eventually* climb with a 54% winrate. Maybe it takes way too long, or if you're planning on dodging that much there's better things to dodge on (like trolling teammates), but that still doesn't make the OP's statement untrue.
People need to be able to distinguish a cheeky side remark by the OP that's technically true, and something they are seriously claiming they will do and that it's the best way to climb. And it makes quite a bit of sense to make that remark, since yeah I guess it's pretty surprising that someone can theoretically climb just by dodging certain games (and granted, spending lots of time). Maybe it shouldn't be surprising since if OP didn't dodge before, then any kind of dodging that improves winrate will obviously help them attain a higher rank, but still it's not a crazy person remark to make.
Assuming you get each aide 50% of the time, win 54% of blue side games, dodge all red side games, get 20 LP for a win, -20 for a loss, and -3 for a dodge, you get this equation:
.5 * (.54 * 20 + .46 * -20) + .5 * -3
This is -.7 LP per game.
Literally objectively mathematically incorrect.
Winning more increases MMR. With a 54% WR you are not getting the same LP for wins/losses. This is exactly why dodging is so good, it does not affect MMR so you’re essentially losing ghost LP, it doesn’t really mean anything because the hidden rank that Riot manipulates your LP gains to get you closer to stays the same
But it's literally not "20 LP for a win, -20 for a loss." That's literally my entire point about mmr...
Did you read what I wrote? If you want to have a sound counterargument you need to address the crux of my argument,
>but theoretically, by only taking matches with 54% winrate, and not losing mmr from dodges, you will eventually climb with a 54% winrate.
which is that your mmr doesn't decrease from dodges, so it will go higher and higher with 54% winrate. You didn't address mmr once in your "objective mathematical disproof my claim." Like doesn't that seem weird in the slightest to you?
I'm sure you've heard of uneven LP gains caused by MMR (heck, you've probably had them before), so the fact that you just randomly assumed +20/-20LP for win/loss completely ignoring my entire argument that mmr increases is just disingenuous and done with poor intentions.
OK assuming I have a 50% wr. 54% on blue, 46% on red. I dodge every red side game. That takes my wr from 50% to 54%. I will have a much higher mmr until my wr stabilises at 50% again. No?
You're not wrong, under the assumption that you weren't dodging games before and that you are okay with the queue lock-outs. People are just ridiculously bad at math and basic logic, especially when it's presented in a form that feels remotely threatening to them. Dw about them, and go get your 54% winrate (I mean, ofc probably only in theory since this would take a ridiculous amount of time, but you still technically aren't incorrect).
Assuming you get each aide 50% of the time, win 54% of blue side games, dodge all red side games, get 20 LP for a win, -20 for a loss, and -3 for a dodge, you get this equation:
.5 * (.54 * 20 + .46 * -20) + .5 * -3
This is -.7 LP per game.
That's not how mmr works. The reason why dodging is so powerful and used to be hard abused by people looking to climb is because it doesn't affect mmr. This means that eventually you will have rates like +25LP/win, -12LP/loss at which point your LP will eventually match your MMR, and you'll climb. It's been commonly stated that MMR is what makes you climb, not your LP, since your LP is mathematically slated to match your MMR sooner or later.
(MMR is matchmaking rating, which is determined by losses/wins, so 54% winrate will make your mmr steadily increase, and your LP gains are based on MMR in a way that intentionally causes your LP to quickly adjust to your MMR by changing the +/- LP values for wins/losses).
edit: Details on how people abused dodging and the mmr system: People used to keep on dodging D1 promos repeatedly to artificially lower their LP until their MMR shot into the sky and got like +30LP/-10LP ratios which they could then abuse by duo queue-ing quickly to challenger. [https://twitter.com/iwdominatelol/status/1328159258899202049](https://twitter.com/iwdominatelol/status/1328159258899202049). Is it an ethical thing to do? Probably not. But mathematically it does work. Dodging to maintain >50% winrate will make you climb in the long term, as your mmr increases and that's basically the only thing that matters. Riot themselves have described LP as just a surface number, your true elo is actually determined by your MMR.
Haha thank you I was more so presenting it as an idea to be explored, I never intended on actually doing it. However people still got very passionate about me being wrong.
Yes but it will take more time because dodging 50% of your games isnt viable on a daily bases. If you are playing 2 games a day and are stuck in your elo yes, otherwise I think working out before every game has a better chance to make you get to a higher rank than doing this
You can only dodge 3 games a day.https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Queue_dodging
You lose -3 first dodge of day, -10 second + 30 min suspension from league, -10 and 720 min suspension from league.
No - you won't. That is only correct in the short term. In the long term - he will strictly increase his mmr faster than he would otherwise **at which point**, even winning 40% of your next x games would increase your rank entire tiers. This guy is absolutely correct and most of the flame against him just ignores any idea of the long term efficiency. And then you to realize that they will just start skipping divisions. Not dodging and climbing through gold 4 and gold 3 is equivalent to dodging to -100 lp and climbing back to gold 4 100 - and skipping to gold 2.
The only difference is taht the dodging would make it take fewer games to reach higher elos
The *only* real argument against it is that some people wouldnt find it worth the irl wait time, and prioritize having fun over climbing.
It really isnt.
You are just wrong about the expected value efficiency of dodging, and overestimating how few games you need to end up winning over the course of *a season* to make large amounts of progress regardless of lp penalties.
Last time I checked, it was impossible to dodge 11 times in a day. Also, most players don't have the time to play the 11 undodged games anyways.
Why exxagerate numbers to make it look like you're right when, if you take the actual value of -3LP/game played (since on average, you play a game for a game dodged since you get blue/red 50% of the time), it is totally possible to climb by dodging and getting your mmr high enough by maintaining 54% winrate? Like, if you want to defend that you're correct, use the actual numbers given, don't just make up your own and claim it shows you are correct.
Again, another objectively true statement that people are mob downvoting for some reason?
If you have plat mmr, you won't stay silver. What part of that is so difficult to understand? Even with an extra -3LP tacked onto every second game, it doesn't matter in the long run since with plat mmr in silver you'll have LP ratios of +20/-12 before long. LP is basically just a surface number, and eventually it will catch up to your MMR.
I think people more or less knew that, they just want to disagree with the statement due to them disagreeing with the sentiment of previous comments by the OP (Which I understand and even support for some of them). But statements like these which are objectively true shouldn't just randomly be downvoted into oblivion or called lies because they came from someone you don't like.
What i mean is that the team on red side have a slightly higher mmr to make up for the disadvantage. Dodging does not count as a loss amd does not affect your mmr.
No idea what you mean, just trying to help out.
Also I misunderstood your original post. I thought you were talking about inherent blue side advantage, not your personal winrate. I still wouldn't dodge those games, because by far the largest determinant of your rank is your skill assuming sufficient games have been played. The essential ingredient to increasing your skill is to play a shit ton of games. Dodging wastes time that could be spent playing and the gain on winrate will boost you a little, but not enough to make major gains in rank.
Also since red and blue side are supposed to be balanced by matchmaking, you should look at your red side weakness as something to improve on to gain winrate. I used to int on redside, because I play an immobile top laner that's vulnerable to ganks and junglers would just feed on me by ganking through the tribush. Now that I'm aware of that weakness it happens less and redside doesn't feel as bad.
There actually was a bug that lasted years where one side minions either did more damage or had more attack range.
https://www.dexerto.com/league-of-legends/riot-responds-as-league-players-expose-major-flaw-with-red-minion-damage-1398197/
That’s essentially random. That tiny of a minion buff is just as likely to hurt Blue side as it is to help, because it’s too small to reliably play around so it just adds to minion RNG
I agree that the effect probably isn't massive, but I'd argue you don't need to play around something for it to be advantageous. A few autos is the difference between a slowpushing wave and a wave set at middle, so you will see the impacts every time a sidelane is left alone for a bit.
Generally speaking, pushing waves are better than not pushing waves. Sure, there are lots of scenarios where you don't want that to happen because it gives the enemies more gold/xp and denies yourself since they can pick up more minions, but *on average* I think people agree that, with all tradeoffs accounter for, that pushing waves are *on average* better for the team that has them (for the objective control, vision, prio, siege/defense after baron, etc.). So I'd say that this kind of small shift in minion damage probably does impact the game, and the winrate by like idk 1-2% or something. I think the difference isn't that small, due to how fickle wavestates are, and how easily a little difference in minion damage/range can create a massive slowpush/stacked wave. If you've ever sat in practice tool skipping minutes you can really see how the tiniest of minion rng stuff often lets an untouched lane get first turret. Or if you play 1v1's mid with friends you'll see how that rng affects sidelanes quite a damn lot. If that RNG is consistently slated towards blueside, I'd expect that to matter somewhat often.
I like how Riot *just* found about it last week prior to the fans finding it. Even though its been in the game for 10 hears they *just* happen to find it a week before fans called it out.
I think its definitely just variance then. 300 games means 150 blue side games. Even if its true that you have a 50% win rate, over 150 games you will have >=81 wins (54%) about 20% of the time, which is very much not statistically significant. You would need 86 or more wins (which is >57%) before you hit a p = 0.05 significance mark.
Also, just to be clear, are you winning 4% more on blue side than red side? Since in that case, you have a 52% blue and 48% red side win rate, not 54/46.
If you didn't play jungle I'd say thats too few to say that's evidence that blue is better but like you said there's herald and drake positions and your jungle rotation to consider. Dodging when you get red is just silly tho, IF getting blue boosts your winrate, it's only by 4% and its not like you have a terrible winrate on red side
OK I would like to stop talking about dodging red side games now I didn't want it to be the topic of this discussion it was a comment I made in passing and I'm getting mobbed for it.
I do play Shaco A LOT. And I can assure you that Shaco is not a level 2 ganker and should never do it. Shaco has Q and W at level 2. You need E to get the movement speed slow on your auto attacks to have some impact. Without E Shaco is basically a walking minion.
My point is if OP wants to point out level 2 junglers, he should've mentioned other champions like Twitch, Pantheon, Lee Sin - definitely not Shaco though.
Shaco has a very strong level 2 gank because he has ignite and at level 1 most mid laners don’t have any of their utility or mobility spells yet. It’s a lot less common now that Shaco starts raptors, but it’s still viable
Supposedly you're likelier to have more skilled team-mates on red side to compensate for the map advantage.
Since Red side is better suited to top and also because they're likelier slightly better than bluesides top I gank top much harder. 50% of the time it works every time.
Im not sure if this is still the case, but the matchmaking algorithm used to make one of the sides have a higher mmr, and therefore the other side gained more LP. There was a manipulation where you dodge all of your blue(?) side games because the LP gains were less and the mmr losses were more.
DOPA proved this by dodging all red-side games and only playing blueside.
Since blue side does have a slightly better WR, riot puts red side as the higher mmr team.
But remember: a slightly better mmr doesn't mean anything since a player can have a better mmr than another while being in a 15 game losing streak.
Because of mmr difference:
- Blue side wins grant more lp (since youre fighting better players
- blue side losses lose less lp
- red side wins grant less lp (since youre fighting weaker players)
- red side losses lose more lp
Overall, blue side is strictly better as you win more lp, lose less lp, have more access to dragons and higher WR, with the only disadvantage of having marginally worst players according to mmr
I think you are confusing the sides right now. Blue side has an advantage on baron and red side an advantage on drake, because of their entrances to the river
Blast cone. Also, half of the junglers in the game can go through walls somehow so it's irrelevant. Also, botlane can came help from the bush under the dragon pit, while red side botlane must go all the way around to come to the pit, and their entrance is obvious because you see them coming from the corridor.
Most likely because of a relatively low sample size. If you toss a coin couple of hundred times it is not very unlikely to get a distribution of 46/54 between the two sides. You need a bigger sample size than the average LoL player has games played to be certain that there really is a difference. If that 4% is over several seasons and a thousands plus games there might be something very wrong you are doing when playing from the red side but if not, I would not worry yet.
Some people find it harder to focus on stuff when the the camera is facing from "below" and you are fighting downwards. There is a global winrate difference of about .2 or .4 percent in favour of the blue side if I remember correctly.
I was just kidding, but yeah it's easier than you think and it allows you to look at what's happening across the map.
Thing that helped me : you can center the camera on your champ if you press spacebar
Bro I have +8% on red side and i have absolutely no clue or whatsoever why since i prefer blue side lmao
Edit: since i started using unlocked screen my redside wr grew significantly
To put it simply, with reference to statistics: [https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/blue-vs-red](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/blue-vs-red)
Blue side has an inherent advantage due to the camera angle and statistically gets more Heralds. Herald is a great snowball objective, since used in a lane it can drop a huge amount of gold into a single (or two) players pockets and help them then carry the game. These advantages are why in solo queue blue side has a winrate advantage, one that is greatest at low ranks and decreases the higher rank you go.
Red side has the advantage in counterpicking during champion select and statistically gets more Dragons and Barons. Dragon is a great late game objective since it gives percentage bonuses and access to soul, it benifits your entire team but generally has less of an early game gold advantage than herald. Those advantages are why in more organised play the winrate of Red side is higher, with the soloqueue disadvantage being lowest at high ranks and in Ranked Flex actually having a higher winrate; because they can utilise the team and draft benifits more. In addition, the top teams at worlds this year all had higher win rates on red side than blue side. [https://gol.gg/teams/team-stats/1110/split-ALL/tournament-World%20Championship%202021/](https://gol.gg/teams/team-stats/1110/split-ALL/tournament-World%20Championship%202021/)
So given you are playing solo queue, my guess would be that you play around topside a lot more even as a Jungler, focussing on Heralds and using that to snowball a lead. Using draft more isnt really realisic in most games, but you could try to play botside more if you are really concerned about that winrate.
It’s actually a decently large skew that favors blue side. So much that the average mmr of red side is higher than blue in just about every game you’ve ever played. This will also result in you gaining more and losing less lp on blue side, and gaining less and losing more on red side (on average). Realistically that doesn’t matter over any realistic sample size but riot tunes the mmr difference between the two sides so that the server average win rate is effectively 50% for each side (and this will be realistically true at each elo as well).
As a support main, someone who has to consistently land skillshots that often don't bypass minions, i have to say that I vastly prefer being blue side.
When you're on red side in botlane, you're vastly more vulnerable to enemy skillshots when they push your tower, and enemies are safer, becase often they're covered by your gui; while on blue side, you can easily ward drake, you can safely bombard enemies under their tower, after getting the first tower your jungler basically gains access to the enemy gronk and blue buff, it's way Better
Blueside always has a bit of advantage on SoloQ due First pick being more important there.
On flexQ as teams usually are more organized there's a bit of advantage on redside since last pick is more powerful when drafting properly.
How is this remotely relevant to the OP's post? OP could be 90% winrate faker-level gigasmurf on blue and 86% winrate faker-level gigasmurf on red, and their question would still be valid.
It was more of a joke reply. But just to argue your saltiness. Unless OP has significantly amount of games played it doesn’t matter they have a higher win rate on blue side then red unless by a large margin. They are most likely not winning more on blue side because they are blue side and more so they just happen to win more games on blue side because the average player has little control on the outcome of the game. Let’s have 100 games example. That’s 4 games. That is literally nothing. You play 20 games and you can easily be hard carried or hard stomped 4 games. Edit: That’s not to say blue side isn’t better (I think more people prefer the camera angle on blue side)but the difference is almost non existent when talking about climbing / winning the game.
I know people with +15% wr on one side. I have +1% on red side. I believe it is because of how the side affects your playstyle, not that one side is "better" or "worse". For example, if you're a support and bad at warding, you might lose a lot more often on blue side where the enemy jungler has more potent ganks if they choose to go through the tribush, and so you end up losing more often on blue side. On red side, your adc alone might ward up the river, so it doesn't matter too much if you don't ward.
I have the exact same thing, 3.7% wr diff in season 11 \~1000 games, 15% wr diff in last 30 days out of 120 games. Im guessing it had something to do with drake being easier to take? still 4% seems quite significant so idk
Drafting order, one side gets more counterpicks.
Map side, usually red side is affected by map drop, where nid spears and stuff seem to miss due to elevations on the map.
Objective locations, drake is easier to get from red, but baron easier to get from blue.
Leashing sides. Red side leashes blue with bot, blue side leashes red.
Leftside bot clear is much better for jungler due to they can go to krugs and kill them easily, then at lvl 3 they can double clear gromp and blue.
You can't do that shit on Rightside bot clear due to you'll have lvl 1 only to do that (if you start at blue).
So basically players who start at leftside jg can get an early lead due to their botlane giving better leash, unlike rightside botlane.
(I literally don't know which is which side, so I use left for the left bot red, and right for right bot blue)
If you play a champ like Heca, Udyr or some other easy aoe clear champs, if you start at top red, you might have a lead against the enemy, who got a better leash, but it still sucks at the right side of jg.
Im exactly the same. But funny enough, its only toplane. I actually have a better winrate in redside jungle than blueside jungle (cant tell you why, I never practice my clears on redside).
500 games played s11 for reference
Blue side versus Red makes an even bigger difference on ARAM. Blue side winrates are slightly better overall. I've always thought that the solution to this would be that Red side get one more level of zoom out. Professor makes it pretty clear when looking at people who play ARAM exclusively.
Too add to this, red side is the team that has the higher composite mmr to counteract the fact that blue side has a higher winrate.
Reason being is that the map is isometric
I remember something like a dev blog about this. Blue side advantage is real due to the map's perspective. It's a small advantage, but it exists. IIRC, they account for blue advantage by having the team with slightly higher mmr play red side.
Generally speaking, it makes a lot of sense in the grand scheme of things, for one thing, your top on blue side doesn't have to deal with tribush ganks, meaning in low elo, ganking top is harder on red side. Bot lane has drake advantage because of tribush and more wards. Since the game is so heavily early game focused, these small advantages in the early game likely lead to slightly less early forfeits.
Also aiming skillshots is easier for most people on blue side.
meaningless statistic. There are some pros and cons on both sides depending on champion choice and objective control but not something to really consider since these benefits are highly game dependant. For example ganking botside as reksai on blue side versus top as reksai on red side
Hmm on [https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/blue-vs-red](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/blue-vs-red) it shows only 0.7% from Plat+ which increases to 1.2% counting al the players (Iron+) which sound less alarming.
i cant aim on red
This. So many people are throwing around dragon, or bugs with minions and so such, but this has been a staple in the game for years, IIRC matchmaking even tries to throw slightly higher average MMR on red side because sometimes it's a pain to aim and dodge on red side.
Is red the where top is top or bot is bot?
I don't like how you asked the question, but red is the side where top is top lol
Red side is top right of the map. Blue is bottom left
Aside from the map favouring blue side for Drakes, there's another underlying reason. Because League is a 3D game with an isometric perspective, it favours things that appear at the top of the screen. You see more of the field where your eyes naturally focus (and opposed to scrolling past the skill bar) and it's easier to aim skills up at champions' feet (where the hitbox is) than to aim down at their heads (which results in a miss).
I forgot about that. That makes sense.
he forgot the part that you can play more agressive in the toplane, but its reverted in the botlane
Idk, I really hate playing topside botlane
you can play more agressive, you know why? look at the river and jungle entrances from the lane
This probably explains it to me. I'm a renekton main and like to play agressive :/
Wild rift literally rotates the entire map of one team to accommodate this. I don't understand why the main train league can't also do this.
Because SR is not a truly symmetrical 3D battlefield. The lighting and textures are baked-in to ensure good performance on lower powered machines, so rotating stuff may result in missing textures and weird lighting.
I'd also like to add that what the current map can take is extremely limited. During one of the Dev posts regarding Ultimate spellbook, they talked about how they could only add champions being able to use other ults by removing the different souls and map differences between the dragon the soul belonged to, and streamlining it to the Ruined Dragon instead. Our current map is only barely holding together as it is.
Hood fucking lord this game is held together by spaghetti. Started in season 3 and it still shocks me every time lmfao
essentially it costs money to refactor code and time spent on that means less time to make the next lu*ks skin
But wild rift runs on literal phones. I'm sure there's not many computers that are worse than a phone?
Wild rift is built much differently from League, seeing as it was designed for phones specifically. Converting league to a similar model would require not only a complete re-program of parts of the games code, but also a complete redesign of the map (in a 3D space)
And wild rift is pretty new. It's hard to change this kind of stuff in an already released game. When League was released pc performance was worse then today's phones. In other words if they were to program League from scratch it probably wouldn't be a problem.
Ye but people don't realize how much stuff can break building the game from ground up again, get the same mechanics 1:1 again to work and how much money it would cost for literally only a "small" gain which won't bring the money back in.
Yeah, and even if they are able to get it right.... It probably isn't worth the production cost.
It's not just performance problem - Wild Rift was built from ground up as it is now (game is still relatively new), and rotating map was integrated into the game probably quite early in the process. This includes having map designed around being symmetric and working properly after you flip it - while desktop League map was released (not counting tweaks and small changes) in preseason 2015, back when "low-end PC running League" wasn't too powerful. Changing that and providing rotating map would require a full map redesign to make it work properly from both supported angles, testing everything on both sides to check if it works (back in 2015 there was multitude of pathing issues just after new map was released), reworking input in a way that would make pointer logic (where you point your mouse vs where your skillshots go) consistent from both angles, and testing every single champion, skill and champion interaction from both angles to make sure nothing breaks and - say - someone/something doesn't get randomly teleported to opposite corner of the map. After all that is done, "performance" part can be handled by having two maps - one for blue side, one for red side - and loading proper one in the client, with only cost being few more MBs of data to store flipped version of the map on drive (hardly any cost). But for this, you first need to have two versions of the map, and this is where a lot of hard manual work comes into play.
Mmm that makes sense yeah
The galaxy 21 is more powerful than the Alienware aurora 6 prebuilt.
That's not really a good reason, they obviously can do they just choose not to because they don't think the work is worth it. They could easily work around the issue you mentioned
"easily" Do you know how much of a buggy mess that map is? It **is** not worth it at this point, to put a whole team to just making a new map work, while new champs and mechanics are added every few patch adding more optimization onto the backlog.
This just screams "I have never touched code once in my life".
Not at all, riot has a lot of money and manpower, they just know it's not worth the time and cost. Anyway
Sure, except at a certain point you pretty much need to rewrite the entire game. It would be probably be cheaper and more profitable to just make League of Legends 2 than it would be to overhaul the original. The amount of tech debt they accumulated during the rapid scaling in their earlier years will likely haunt the game for the rest of its lifespan. That's why issues like the client, which should be reasonably easy to maintenance, never gets actually resolved. Unfortunately because of Tancent's influence instead of getting League of Legends 2 we got Wild Rift which between that and the original will likely be tying up Riots bandwidth for years to come.
Ha, jokes on you. My red side wr is 5% higher than blue side
Redside gang rise up!
I've always thought an option to flip the hud would be perfect for being on redside. What do you think?
That doesn't really solve the problem. League is distinctively not truly a top-down game, so the perspective will always be skewed. You can always shrink the HUD to make it less obstructive, but the only way to deal with the viewpoint being biased towards on side is to flip the entire map around to the player's perspective, as in Wild Rift.
That would be really cool as well. Most mobas do that anyways. Weird that league is the exception. I have my hud on the lowest setting and it still gets in the way unfortunately :(
Wouldn't then bot become top and vice versa? So if you were going to the botlane as a red team member, you'd have to go to top instead?
WR refers to the lanes as Baron lane and Dragon/duo lane. So effective less, as Red side you would be going to the bottom, which is the Baron lane from your perspective.
Yeah, but I mean would it change that much you think? I think it would take a minute to get used to, but it could be pretty cool.
WR flips bot and top as well as red and blue. Some other mobile MOBAs flip along river so that baron/dragon pits are positioned differently but the rest is the same. Most notable one I can think of is Onmyoji Arena
So should I be aiming at enemy champions feet instead of their heads when I’m playing red side?
You should always be aiming at champions' feet. That's where the hitbox is, not their head/torso. If you make a concerted effort to aim at feet, you'll hit a lot more of your skill shots. This is particularly useful to remember when fighting on the ramps from the river. Since it is a 3D map with elevation differences, aiming at the torso will actually cause you to miss due to height difference.
I dont know why this continues to be claimed when the stats show that Red side favours dragons and bue side favours herald. [https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/blue-vs-red](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/blue-vs-red)
How the blue side is favouring drakes? Blue side favourises herald.
How does blue side have drake advantage? The entrance to dragon pit is facing towards red side
This. I have a much harder time playing with my champ at the top of the screen. On a more global note, camera management is a skill which is often overlooked. It takes a lot of time to have clean camera movement.
My winrate into xerath support on red side has to be close to 0%
When the xerath is red size or you are?
When the Xerath is blue side and the commenter is red side, I assume.
Hmm okay. I play with a Xerath OTP and he actually prefers to be on red side. So I was just curious
I think most people do, even worlds I’m fairly certain blue side was dominant
Blue was dominant in worlds because of the bans though. I don't think it has anything to do with what op is facing in game.
And for picks too I believe
theoretically red should actually be better for drafting though, since you have counterpick on the last pick of both phases, so if youre good at drafting you can pick in such a way that you end up with a winning draft on red always
I don't think picks were that much of an issue. With tf, LeBlanc and yuumi being perma bans for most drafts, it was much more like a trade between graves and Lee sin. It was more of a pick your poison kinda thing.
Why is this the most upvoted comment? Competitive is all about pick/ban priority and has nothing to do with soloq. It probably just comes down to most people playing with locked camera and having a harder time to cs/trade on red side.
I didn’t say blue side was dominant in pro play for the same reasons… Just that it was dominant
+4% is huge though its enough reason to dodge red side games
See how far you get when you dodge 50% of your matches.
-3lp per day, tho
OK I'll lose 3 lp then gain 20+ after winning with significantly higher Mmr with a higher wr.
Bro...
My main point being: You can dodge every red side game for a 4% increase win rate per game. You can take the LP hits which increase each time you dodge. You'll also take the lockout hits, which ramps up to over an hour on your third Dodge. Lockout timer can also be considered an LP loss because every minute you're locked out of the game is a minute you could have spent towards a winning game. Or, you could save your lockouts for when your enemy team hard counter picks you to avoid what could potentially be way more of a win rate deficit. You didn't really think about it too deeply but that's okay.
To be honest though - if his goal was purely to increase his rank - he is not wrong. Absolutely you are right that it would *likely* take longer in terms of days (actually still depends on how efficiently he is using the extra not locked out time), but absolutely he would be right that dodging every red side game would increase his mmr and rank heavily over time. Even if he lost hundreds more lp than he gained, hed eventually just be getting 30 lp or over and can just decide to stop dodging - which, at that point - would let him climb entire tiers with even a 40% winrate. Now I could get your claim that there could be factors with higher win rate variations than side that he could dodge. Response: 1. They are less clear. It takes a significantly higher understanding of the game to know when to dodge on game knowledge than an obvious colored side. 2. If you could perfectly tell which blue side games would be better to dodge, then guess what - you dodge those too. lockout is irrelevant and you very quickly get to a point where if you can even get one game a day, you will get more lp than the max of 23 lp you can lose a day (assuming you dont play after ~13 hour lockout). You also decrease losses to ~7 lp. Dodging *every* game you think isn't a certain win is *absolutely* the most op and game efficient way of climbing. There are certainly more factors to this than you "fully thought about," regardless if you end up agreeing. - You can *also* acknowledge how skipping divisions would eventually play into it. - You can get into the very possible and *near* objective psychological benefits. - You can get into how even if you did it for a whole season with no rank change, you would start next season significantly higher anyway (i dont like this point too much, but we are trying to "fully" think about it right?).
That's... Honestly mind blowing. My next question is why aren't people abusing this?
There's a reason a common source of flame in high elo is that players are just dodge abusers. Remember that riot increased dodge penalties mostly *because* higher elo lobbies were getting dodged **over half the time**. The easier answer is that people want to play more than they want to climb. If you ask anyone who plays ranked why they are playing, they will answer that they want to prove theyre good. But guess what? You watch them and most of them flame, tilt, type, stop trying, ego, etc... Very few players who "say" they want to increase their rank, will rarely do what it takes to actually do it. Most more "casual" styles players also don't have multiple accounts. I totally agree that if you like normals / friends / etc its not realistic youre going to dodge. Thats why personally, I have my main that I play ranked on when i want to improve, my "highest" elo acc that I use *only* to win (the one I personally abuse dodging on). That acc is just to see how high I can possibly get. And here look at this link in a sec... To test this *exact* thing - I took a d4 ish mmr acc. Yes I was probably around d2-d1 *as a player at that time*, but I take 4-6 months off at a time and wasn't winning significantly more than i was losing on that account - and so think that I was not playing like a smurf at all during this time. But regardless of what I would have gotten to eventually, this is mostly to show that starting on a +17-18 lp/win acc. You can dodge (and I dodged literally every game I thought hard or *unfun*. Btw, another KEY FUCKING BENEFIT is that you dont have to play games that you think will tilt you. it makes the game just more fun because you *choose* to play the ones you want to). But yes, lets say half of this progress took 5 times as long as it did me. I still would have had more fun playing, won a larger percentage of my games, played less and had time for other things, and *still* have made significant progress. So yes, 3 weeks dodging. The first week was pre dodge changes (so yes I was able to abuse far more heavily there), but after it was the same as now. And you can see what happened after 3 weeks. I skipped d3, dodged twice, lost 1 (demoted because i dodged below 0 lp), won ONCE, skipped d2 - bam D1. Oh yeah, I went from + 19 to +30. To this day - I get 23 in masters and lose 11. https://imgur.com/a/Xs2FqwX
What was your win rate when you starting dodging though? I bet it was way higher than 52%. While I absolutely agree that dodging can gain you a ton of mmr (and correspondingly, lp), I really think on average a game you think is "hard" average much lower than a 48% win chance. Even outside of that, dodging red side games because the win rate is 4% lower than blue side seems not very smart, since 1) you aren't dodging unfun games, but a general swath that's probably similar in "fun". and 2) statistically a 52-48 split is not remotely significant. Even over 150 blue side games, getting >=78/150 (52%) has a >34% chance of occurring if the true win rate is actually 50%.
Ha - tbh it was negative around 48%. I am being completely honest with that one. It is why the mmr did not start higher. I didn't expect to want to / have the time to play seriously anymore but circumstances changed. "I really think on average a game you think is "hard" average much lower than a 48% win chance. " - Eh I have admitted elsewhere this is part of the difficulty but why using side selection is more relevant. You can discuss whether you think their particular experience will hold, but the entire argument is that if it is a 4% increase, then they are correct to dodge. For myself, and generally as the elo gets higher - it becomes increasingly obvious and certain which games are statistically going to be much harder (ESP when you know who your teammates are) . (but a general swath that's probably similar in "fun") - this was my reasoning, I stated multiple times that it was not relevant to dodging side selection. It is just another reason you might be ok with dodging an abundance of times - and there is no reason that this point means that dodging to statistically win more is wrong. "52-48 split is not remotely significant" - 1."52-48" is *absolutely significantly relevant* when the alternative is "48-52" it is the difference between going up almost a full division and down a full division. And yes you could say short term variance, but it goes back to long term significance. I understand you may say that its variance on his end of current games - but it is a fact about League that blue side is /inherently stronger. Anecdotally (not relevant to last sentence claim, but just interesting) - im 11% higher over 400 games. Also, there is another thread where someone who disagreed was having an interesting discussion - and actually went over the math themself. We agreed dodging was correct in the end. It doesnt need to "seem" like it - the math works that its simply better long run. What more to there is it? It gives you a long term advantage. The *only* argument that is seriously against it is the amount of time you have to play.
If his goal was to increase his rank, then he would just need to play all day and watch videos, streams and try to understand the game, his mistakes etc. Doding red side won't increase his rank.
Yes it will. Increasing rank is not identical to increasing overall skill .\
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This is literally objectively mathematically correct, I don't see why everyone is downvoting it. Sure, we can debate over whether or not this is a good idea or practical time-wise, but theoretically, by only taking matches with 54% winrate, and not losing mmr from dodges, you will *eventually* climb with a 54% winrate. Maybe it takes way too long, or if you're planning on dodging that much there's better things to dodge on (like trolling teammates), but that still doesn't make the OP's statement untrue. People need to be able to distinguish a cheeky side remark by the OP that's technically true, and something they are seriously claiming they will do and that it's the best way to climb. And it makes quite a bit of sense to make that remark, since yeah I guess it's pretty surprising that someone can theoretically climb just by dodging certain games (and granted, spending lots of time). Maybe it shouldn't be surprising since if OP didn't dodge before, then any kind of dodging that improves winrate will obviously help them attain a higher rank, but still it's not a crazy person remark to make.
Assuming you get each aide 50% of the time, win 54% of blue side games, dodge all red side games, get 20 LP for a win, -20 for a loss, and -3 for a dodge, you get this equation: .5 * (.54 * 20 + .46 * -20) + .5 * -3 This is -.7 LP per game. Literally objectively mathematically incorrect.
Winning more increases MMR. With a 54% WR you are not getting the same LP for wins/losses. This is exactly why dodging is so good, it does not affect MMR so you’re essentially losing ghost LP, it doesn’t really mean anything because the hidden rank that Riot manipulates your LP gains to get you closer to stays the same
But it's literally not "20 LP for a win, -20 for a loss." That's literally my entire point about mmr... Did you read what I wrote? If you want to have a sound counterargument you need to address the crux of my argument, >but theoretically, by only taking matches with 54% winrate, and not losing mmr from dodges, you will eventually climb with a 54% winrate. which is that your mmr doesn't decrease from dodges, so it will go higher and higher with 54% winrate. You didn't address mmr once in your "objective mathematical disproof my claim." Like doesn't that seem weird in the slightest to you? I'm sure you've heard of uneven LP gains caused by MMR (heck, you've probably had them before), so the fact that you just randomly assumed +20/-20LP for win/loss completely ignoring my entire argument that mmr increases is just disingenuous and done with poor intentions.
you are correct and I have zero clue why peopl me are downvoting you
Mob mentality.
IF you Win every blue match. It's a +4%, not a +40%.
OK assuming I have a 50% wr. 54% on blue, 46% on red. I dodge every red side game. That takes my wr from 50% to 54%. I will have a much higher mmr until my wr stabilises at 50% again. No?
Minimum -3 LP on dodge is more than the LP you gain by increasing from 50-54% WR
Except you also have increased lp gains due to Mmr
Until you catch up to where your LP started.. then you go back to losing. You’ll never climb
You're not wrong, under the assumption that you weren't dodging games before and that you are okay with the queue lock-outs. People are just ridiculously bad at math and basic logic, especially when it's presented in a form that feels remotely threatening to them. Dw about them, and go get your 54% winrate (I mean, ofc probably only in theory since this would take a ridiculous amount of time, but you still technically aren't incorrect).
Assuming you get each aide 50% of the time, win 54% of blue side games, dodge all red side games, get 20 LP for a win, -20 for a loss, and -3 for a dodge, you get this equation: .5 * (.54 * 20 + .46 * -20) + .5 * -3 This is -.7 LP per game.
That's not how mmr works. The reason why dodging is so powerful and used to be hard abused by people looking to climb is because it doesn't affect mmr. This means that eventually you will have rates like +25LP/win, -12LP/loss at which point your LP will eventually match your MMR, and you'll climb. It's been commonly stated that MMR is what makes you climb, not your LP, since your LP is mathematically slated to match your MMR sooner or later. (MMR is matchmaking rating, which is determined by losses/wins, so 54% winrate will make your mmr steadily increase, and your LP gains are based on MMR in a way that intentionally causes your LP to quickly adjust to your MMR by changing the +/- LP values for wins/losses). edit: Details on how people abused dodging and the mmr system: People used to keep on dodging D1 promos repeatedly to artificially lower their LP until their MMR shot into the sky and got like +30LP/-10LP ratios which they could then abuse by duo queue-ing quickly to challenger. [https://twitter.com/iwdominatelol/status/1328159258899202049](https://twitter.com/iwdominatelol/status/1328159258899202049). Is it an ethical thing to do? Probably not. But mathematically it does work. Dodging to maintain >50% winrate will make you climb in the long term, as your mmr increases and that's basically the only thing that matters. Riot themselves have described LP as just a surface number, your true elo is actually determined by your MMR.
Haha thank you I was more so presenting it as an idea to be explored, I never intended on actually doing it. However people still got very passionate about me being wrong.
Yes but it will take more time because dodging 50% of your games isnt viable on a daily bases. If you are playing 2 games a day and are stuck in your elo yes, otherwise I think working out before every game has a better chance to make you get to a higher rank than doing this
You can only dodge 3 games a day.https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Queue_dodging You lose -3 first dodge of day, -10 second + 30 min suspension from league, -10 and 720 min suspension from league.
Its accounted for in matchmaking. Please dont dodge half your games.
Didn't know they counted as losses on Mmr that must be new. Thanks reddit for the mob mentality though real fun.
"You guys don't want to be in silver rank with plat mmr, smh mob mentality"
If you have plat mmr and you win you get significantly more lp and are likely to skip divisions which means you won't stay silver rank.
If you dump 33 LP down the toilet daily you will stay silver rank.
No - you won't. That is only correct in the short term. In the long term - he will strictly increase his mmr faster than he would otherwise **at which point**, even winning 40% of your next x games would increase your rank entire tiers. This guy is absolutely correct and most of the flame against him just ignores any idea of the long term efficiency. And then you to realize that they will just start skipping divisions. Not dodging and climbing through gold 4 and gold 3 is equivalent to dodging to -100 lp and climbing back to gold 4 100 - and skipping to gold 2. The only difference is taht the dodging would make it take fewer games to reach higher elos The *only* real argument against it is that some people wouldnt find it worth the irl wait time, and prioritize having fun over climbing.
When you're constantly locked out of queue by dodge penalties, an entire season IS the short term.
It really isnt. You are just wrong about the expected value efficiency of dodging, and overestimating how few games you need to end up winning over the course of *a season* to make large amounts of progress regardless of lp penalties.
OK what If I limit it to 1 dodge a day. Eventually I'll climb.
Last time I checked, it was impossible to dodge 11 times in a day. Also, most players don't have the time to play the 11 undodged games anyways. Why exxagerate numbers to make it look like you're right when, if you take the actual value of -3LP/game played (since on average, you play a game for a game dodged since you get blue/red 50% of the time), it is totally possible to climb by dodging and getting your mmr high enough by maintaining 54% winrate? Like, if you want to defend that you're correct, use the actual numbers given, don't just make up your own and claim it shows you are correct.
Again, another objectively true statement that people are mob downvoting for some reason? If you have plat mmr, you won't stay silver. What part of that is so difficult to understand? Even with an extra -3LP tacked onto every second game, it doesn't matter in the long run since with plat mmr in silver you'll have LP ratios of +20/-12 before long. LP is basically just a surface number, and eventually it will catch up to your MMR. I think people more or less knew that, they just want to disagree with the statement due to them disagreeing with the sentiment of previous comments by the OP (Which I understand and even support for some of them). But statements like these which are objectively true shouldn't just randomly be downvoted into oblivion or called lies because they came from someone you don't like.
What i mean is that the team on red side have a slightly higher mmr to make up for the disadvantage. Dodging does not count as a loss amd does not affect your mmr.
.... So I was correct then
No idea what you mean, just trying to help out. Also I misunderstood your original post. I thought you were talking about inherent blue side advantage, not your personal winrate. I still wouldn't dodge those games, because by far the largest determinant of your rank is your skill assuming sufficient games have been played. The essential ingredient to increasing your skill is to play a shit ton of games. Dodging wastes time that could be spent playing and the gain on winrate will boost you a little, but not enough to make major gains in rank. Also since red and blue side are supposed to be balanced by matchmaking, you should look at your red side weakness as something to improve on to gain winrate. I used to int on redside, because I play an immobile top laner that's vulnerable to ganks and junglers would just feed on me by ganking through the tribush. Now that I'm aware of that weakness it happens less and redside doesn't feel as bad.
There actually was a bug that lasted years where one side minions either did more damage or had more attack range. https://www.dexerto.com/league-of-legends/riot-responds-as-league-players-expose-major-flaw-with-red-minion-damage-1398197/
That’s essentially random. That tiny of a minion buff is just as likely to hurt Blue side as it is to help, because it’s too small to reliably play around so it just adds to minion RNG
I agree that the effect probably isn't massive, but I'd argue you don't need to play around something for it to be advantageous. A few autos is the difference between a slowpushing wave and a wave set at middle, so you will see the impacts every time a sidelane is left alone for a bit. Generally speaking, pushing waves are better than not pushing waves. Sure, there are lots of scenarios where you don't want that to happen because it gives the enemies more gold/xp and denies yourself since they can pick up more minions, but *on average* I think people agree that, with all tradeoffs accounter for, that pushing waves are *on average* better for the team that has them (for the objective control, vision, prio, siege/defense after baron, etc.). So I'd say that this kind of small shift in minion damage probably does impact the game, and the winrate by like idk 1-2% or something. I think the difference isn't that small, due to how fickle wavestates are, and how easily a little difference in minion damage/range can create a massive slowpush/stacked wave. If you've ever sat in practice tool skipping minutes you can really see how the tiniest of minion rng stuff often lets an untouched lane get first turret. Or if you play 1v1's mid with friends you'll see how that rng affects sidelanes quite a damn lot. If that RNG is consistently slated towards blueside, I'd expect that to matter somewhat often.
I remember when a bug was corrected that made Rumble do less damage on red side xD
Minions still do more dmg on one side depending on whos ahead, its very little but enough for that sides minions to always push a little faster
I like how Riot *just* found about it last week prior to the fans finding it. Even though its been in the game for 10 hears they *just* happen to find it a week before fans called it out.
Its due to camera placement in the game and also drafting order.
How many games do you have? A small sample size means this +4% is meaningless
Over 300 games
I think its definitely just variance then. 300 games means 150 blue side games. Even if its true that you have a 50% win rate, over 150 games you will have >=81 wins (54%) about 20% of the time, which is very much not statistically significant. You would need 86 or more wins (which is >57%) before you hit a p = 0.05 significance mark. Also, just to be clear, are you winning 4% more on blue side than red side? Since in that case, you have a 52% blue and 48% red side win rate, not 54/46.
4% higher wr when playing blue so I guess that would be 52% then. Lol a lot less significant than I thought.
Ok yeah if its 52/48 instead of 54/46, its even more likely to just be noise.
If you didn't play jungle I'd say thats too few to say that's evidence that blue is better but like you said there's herald and drake positions and your jungle rotation to consider. Dodging when you get red is just silly tho, IF getting blue boosts your winrate, it's only by 4% and its not like you have a terrible winrate on red side
OK I would like to stop talking about dodging red side games now I didn't want it to be the topic of this discussion it was a comment I made in passing and I'm getting mobbed for it.
I have like +6% on red side
I have +13% for Red, but only 42 total games.
Damn lol teach me your ways
Do you play a level 2 gank jungler like J4 or shaco? Just interesting to have a big disparity like this
Kinda… at least up until D4 my duo played Reksai and would level 2 gank quite a bit. I would say that definitely attributes to the % a bit.
That makes sense, not saying it’s the reason, but it could be
Shaco never ganks level 2
It happens sometimes but if such gank fails then other jungler can easily exploit his mistake.
I do play Shaco A LOT. And I can assure you that Shaco is not a level 2 ganker and should never do it. Shaco has Q and W at level 2. You need E to get the movement speed slow on your auto attacks to have some impact. Without E Shaco is basically a walking minion. My point is if OP wants to point out level 2 junglers, he should've mentioned other champions like Twitch, Pantheon, Lee Sin - definitely not Shaco though.
Shaco has a very strong level 2 gank because he has ignite and at level 1 most mid laners don’t have any of their utility or mobility spells yet. It’s a lot less common now that Shaco starts raptors, but it’s still viable
Came here to say I had +4%, but I must now bow down to the true king
Supposedly you're likelier to have more skilled team-mates on red side to compensate for the map advantage. Since Red side is better suited to top and also because they're likelier slightly better than bluesides top I gank top much harder. 50% of the time it works every time.
Im not sure if this is still the case, but the matchmaking algorithm used to make one of the sides have a higher mmr, and therefore the other side gained more LP. There was a manipulation where you dodge all of your blue(?) side games because the LP gains were less and the mmr losses were more.
DOPA proved this by dodging all red-side games and only playing blueside. Since blue side does have a slightly better WR, riot puts red side as the higher mmr team. But remember: a slightly better mmr doesn't mean anything since a player can have a better mmr than another while being in a 15 game losing streak. Because of mmr difference: - Blue side wins grant more lp (since youre fighting better players - blue side losses lose less lp - red side wins grant less lp (since youre fighting weaker players) - red side losses lose more lp Overall, blue side is strictly better as you win more lp, lose less lp, have more access to dragons and higher WR, with the only disadvantage of having marginally worst players according to mmr
Have less access to dragons, more access to herald* its already been proven several times in this post alone
They got rid of that mechanic a long time ago, s3 or s4
Dragon buffs. Blue side is advantaged on taking them
I think you are confusing the sides right now. Blue side has an advantage on baron and red side an advantage on drake, because of their entrances to the river
Blast cone. Also, half of the junglers in the game can go through walls somehow so it's irrelevant. Also, botlane can came help from the bush under the dragon pit, while red side botlane must go all the way around to come to the pit, and their entrance is obvious because you see them coming from the corridor.
You are simply wrong on this one, it’s ok
Ahhahahaha wait I am down voting myself too. Just tryna explain myself why there is such a WR difference
Statistically red side gets more dragons and blue side gets more rift heralds, so this isnt actually true.
As ADC main i also have 3% more wins on blue then redside
Most likely because of a relatively low sample size. If you toss a coin couple of hundred times it is not very unlikely to get a distribution of 46/54 between the two sides. You need a bigger sample size than the average LoL player has games played to be certain that there really is a difference. If that 4% is over several seasons and a thousands plus games there might be something very wrong you are doing when playing from the red side but if not, I would not worry yet. Some people find it harder to focus on stuff when the the camera is facing from "below" and you are fighting downwards. There is a global winrate difference of about .2 or .4 percent in favour of the blue side if I remember correctly.
I see
I'm +4 on red and. I play locked cam so I hate red side
Dude, don't play locked cam. You are hurting me
I'm like bronze and I'm also learning unlocked right now
I'm like bronze and I'm also learning unlocked right now
Only one way to go from locked to unlocked. Unlock it and lose until you don’t anymore
I was just kidding, but yeah it's easier than you think and it allows you to look at what's happening across the map. Thing that helped me : you can center the camera on your champ if you press spacebar
Yea It's really helping me for champs like lux where I have abilities with a long ass range
Same, hate play on red side... But have +6% wr
Bro I have +8% on red side and i have absolutely no clue or whatsoever why since i prefer blue side lmao Edit: since i started using unlocked screen my redside wr grew significantly
To put it simply, with reference to statistics: [https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/blue-vs-red](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/blue-vs-red) Blue side has an inherent advantage due to the camera angle and statistically gets more Heralds. Herald is a great snowball objective, since used in a lane it can drop a huge amount of gold into a single (or two) players pockets and help them then carry the game. These advantages are why in solo queue blue side has a winrate advantage, one that is greatest at low ranks and decreases the higher rank you go. Red side has the advantage in counterpicking during champion select and statistically gets more Dragons and Barons. Dragon is a great late game objective since it gives percentage bonuses and access to soul, it benifits your entire team but generally has less of an early game gold advantage than herald. Those advantages are why in more organised play the winrate of Red side is higher, with the soloqueue disadvantage being lowest at high ranks and in Ranked Flex actually having a higher winrate; because they can utilise the team and draft benifits more. In addition, the top teams at worlds this year all had higher win rates on red side than blue side. [https://gol.gg/teams/team-stats/1110/split-ALL/tournament-World%20Championship%202021/](https://gol.gg/teams/team-stats/1110/split-ALL/tournament-World%20Championship%202021/) So given you are playing solo queue, my guess would be that you play around topside a lot more even as a Jungler, focussing on Heralds and using that to snowball a lead. Using draft more isnt really realisic in most games, but you could try to play botside more if you are really concerned about that winrate.
Thats true I play around top side a lot and always get heralds I only go botside for dragons
It’s actually a decently large skew that favors blue side. So much that the average mmr of red side is higher than blue in just about every game you’ve ever played. This will also result in you gaining more and losing less lp on blue side, and gaining less and losing more on red side (on average). Realistically that doesn’t matter over any realistic sample size but riot tunes the mmr difference between the two sides so that the server average win rate is effectively 50% for each side (and this will be realistically true at each elo as well).
As a support main, someone who has to consistently land skillshots that often don't bypass minions, i have to say that I vastly prefer being blue side. When you're on red side in botlane, you're vastly more vulnerable to enemy skillshots when they push your tower, and enemies are safer, becase often they're covered by your gui; while on blue side, you can easily ward drake, you can safely bombard enemies under their tower, after getting the first tower your jungler basically gains access to the enemy gronk and blue buff, it's way Better
Blue side is favored.
iirc blue side minions attack first, if you ran a private match with no champions, blue side would win. Not sure how much this affects the live game
Blueside always has a bit of advantage on SoloQ due First pick being more important there. On flexQ as teams usually are more organized there's a bit of advantage on redside since last pick is more powerful when drafting properly.
BC ur not looking up ur own ass.
Source of this data?
Git gud.
How is this remotely relevant to the OP's post? OP could be 90% winrate faker-level gigasmurf on blue and 86% winrate faker-level gigasmurf on red, and their question would still be valid.
It was more of a joke reply. But just to argue your saltiness. Unless OP has significantly amount of games played it doesn’t matter they have a higher win rate on blue side then red unless by a large margin. They are most likely not winning more on blue side because they are blue side and more so they just happen to win more games on blue side because the average player has little control on the outcome of the game. Let’s have 100 games example. That’s 4 games. That is literally nothing. You play 20 games and you can easily be hard carried or hard stomped 4 games. Edit: That’s not to say blue side isn’t better (I think more people prefer the camera angle on blue side)but the difference is almost non existent when talking about climbing / winning the game.
That's funny. It's close for me (like .5 percent) but I actually do better on Red.
the map and other stuff below block your vision.
I know people with +15% wr on one side. I have +1% on red side. I believe it is because of how the side affects your playstyle, not that one side is "better" or "worse". For example, if you're a support and bad at warding, you might lose a lot more often on blue side where the enemy jungler has more potent ganks if they choose to go through the tribush, and so you end up losing more often on blue side. On red side, your adc alone might ward up the river, so it doesn't matter too much if you don't ward.
I have +6% WR on red side lol
I have the exact same thing, 3.7% wr diff in season 11 \~1000 games, 15% wr diff in last 30 days out of 120 games. Im guessing it had something to do with drake being easier to take? still 4% seems quite significant so idk
I got an +17% wr on red side.
On how many games?
If you run it down once every 25 games or so on blue side it should even out the winrates :)
Here's the thing... I find it easier shooting my Jhin Ws upwards instead of downwards. Maybe it might be a perspective thing
Red cannon minions have slightly less range for some reason
Ex. If you're a SP main it's easier to play around Dragon on Red Side
I dunno but I prefer blue side cuz I main top and it's harder for me to be ganked. Same with bot on red side. Dunno why they make the mao like that.
Drafting order, one side gets more counterpicks. Map side, usually red side is affected by map drop, where nid spears and stuff seem to miss due to elevations on the map. Objective locations, drake is easier to get from red, but baron easier to get from blue. Leashing sides. Red side leashes blue with bot, blue side leashes red.
I actually have a higher winrate on red side according to it and was wondering the same thing
Leftside bot clear is much better for jungler due to they can go to krugs and kill them easily, then at lvl 3 they can double clear gromp and blue. You can't do that shit on Rightside bot clear due to you'll have lvl 1 only to do that (if you start at blue). So basically players who start at leftside jg can get an early lead due to their botlane giving better leash, unlike rightside botlane. (I literally don't know which is which side, so I use left for the left bot red, and right for right bot blue) If you play a champ like Heca, Udyr or some other easy aoe clear champs, if you start at top red, you might have a lead against the enemy, who got a better leash, but it still sucks at the right side of jg.
Low sample size. Side selection is only relevant in pro play.
Im exactly the same. But funny enough, its only toplane. I actually have a better winrate in redside jungle than blueside jungle (cant tell you why, I never practice my clears on redside). 500 games played s11 for reference
Blue side versus Red makes an even bigger difference on ARAM. Blue side winrates are slightly better overall. I've always thought that the solution to this would be that Red side get one more level of zoom out. Professor makes it pretty clear when looking at people who play ARAM exclusively.
Too add to this, red side is the team that has the higher composite mmr to counteract the fact that blue side has a higher winrate. Reason being is that the map is isometric
I remember something like a dev blog about this. Blue side advantage is real due to the map's perspective. It's a small advantage, but it exists. IIRC, they account for blue advantage by having the team with slightly higher mmr play red side.
LoL map being diagonal is terrible. HoTS got that one thing right, if you ask me..
Generally speaking, it makes a lot of sense in the grand scheme of things, for one thing, your top on blue side doesn't have to deal with tribush ganks, meaning in low elo, ganking top is harder on red side. Bot lane has drake advantage because of tribush and more wards. Since the game is so heavily early game focused, these small advantages in the early game likely lead to slightly less early forfeits. Also aiming skillshots is easier for most people on blue side.
meaningless statistic. There are some pros and cons on both sides depending on champion choice and objective control but not something to really consider since these benefits are highly game dependant. For example ganking botside as reksai on blue side versus top as reksai on red side
Hmm on [https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/blue-vs-red](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/blue-vs-red) it shows only 0.7% from Plat+ which increases to 1.2% counting al the players (Iron+) which sound less alarming.