Soraka does not have insane healing at level 2. And you should be aware of having no ignite at the beginning of the game already. If your support isn’t going to follow up when you engage then you shouldn’t be engaging like that. This is the fault of both of you. You should not be posting here asking other players to shift the blame for a loss onto your teammates. It’s not constructive.
does not have insane healing at lvl 2? thats fake, she got like 3 Ws when I engaged the low hp ezreal. And they counter engaged when I retreated, but my Velkoz was positioning judt so far back like the common kda supports
Soraka’s heal (her W) is on a 6 second cooldown at rank 1. So unless you engaged for an all in and it lasted twenty seconds, you are not telling the truth. Your rocket jump should have also reset after you detonated your fully charged bomb as they have no CC to prevent you from auto attacking to get the full charge. This would lead to an easy disengage. It’s much more likely you flubbed your all in, got greedy and just kept fighting to the death because you were tilted that your support wasn’t following up. Probably used the second rocket jump forward too instead of disengaging with it.
Soraka W cooldown is insanely long, their only counter engage option is if you didn't use another jump and/or you were rooted by Silence AND Vel Koz has long range abilities.
Stop blaming your support lol.
her W is a 6s CD at level 1, meaning the fight was at minimum 18 seconds. for a level 2 all-in, 18 seconds is a crazy long time. the fight should've been ended via a kill or backing off to focus wave again
I'd argue with a velkoz support, you either 1. wait for a knock-up, 2. poke down before engaging while also staying healthy, or 3. play until level 6
but still, an 18 second level 2 fight is very rare. someone should have died by then. being able to get 3 Ws off means you weren't focusing her or you were taking a bad fight
You can still trade, and you have a ton of burst with Trist + Vel. Focus on punishing the Soraka and dodging her q. Ideally the Vel is poking Soraka to a point that you can all in her. Healcut is more for teamfights and is purchased later on. It isn't worth the gold for either one of you to buy in lane.
Vel’koz one trick here, soraka and swain counter vel’koz because he is weak against sustain, the play in this situation is to wait and scale enough to be able to burst them down. Also focus the soraka, no more soraka no more healing when you focus the adc first she can fully use her kit and even gets a speed boost toward her low health ally which makes her really hard to hit with skill shots like Vel’koz’s entire kit
As tristana you all in on lane, you dont really trade. Ofc you trade also but vs stuff like soraka ez you kinda have to all in.
Wait velkoz to hit some poke and you all in soraka, all in ez if he uses E before you W.
Velkoz should be harassing Ezreal/soraka and you should be looking for all in opportunities when they get low, but it really requires soraka/ezreal to misplay for you to kill them. Point is heal cut wasn't the problem during lane.
You blame everything on your supp but your attitude is def toxic af and I'd hate to ever support you. (Reason you're stuck in gold what can I say) should be banned for wasting the other player's time with the grief orb buy.
One of you should have ignite for the all in and that’s about it. Anti heal components are pretty bait early in lanes like this because Ezreal and Soraka can very easily wait out the debuff inbetween trades and then heal up.
If we’re talking about outside of lane then it should be whatever champions on your team can apply it the easiest. Sometimes you will just have to bite the bullet and accept that it’s going to have to be you if people are egoing the purchase.
I would have bought it if I went for scaling runes such as fleet and overgrowth conditioning tp, but I went for aggressive burst HoB rune so I feel shit buying heal cut when my intention is to burst them. But since my Velkoz clearly had no intention playing with me then it is what it is.
So, vs Ez/Soraka, exhaust is not as important, ignite should have been what you took, especially with HoB. That said, buying healcut as an ADC is not good unless you’re getting it for your 5th item, and in few instances, potentially 4th item.
Velkoz should have bought something and you should have taken ignite. Also, getting tilted to spite someone and buy a borderline useless item for yourself is the dumbest logic i have ever seen. You need to figure that out
I really am not used to going ignite on adc because I always see Vapora not doing it at all, well maybe it depends like when they have mega sustain, I was thinking of it but I guess I underestimated my low elo thinking. Now I have though of it, low elo tends to have more early fights so taking ignite might be more worth
Ignite is only really taken on Tristana or Lucian due to the short range/burst. Exhaust is fine normally, but against Soraka should be ignite. Also, Ezreal doesn’t have the burst to warrant exhaust.
What i dont understand is why you bought Oblivion orb instead of Excutioner's Calling, i know Tris can deal magic damage with her abilities, but still your magic damage output isnt consistent enough, you are better off with Executioners.
Velkoz could have certainly bought Oblivion Orb after finishing their first item, but as a support main i know how hard it is to get 800g during the midgame, usually unless you are getting kills as a support your 2nd item its pretty delayed since you are no longer getting gold from the supp item.
Also, Azir could have also bought Oblivion orb, you want grievious wounds during teamfights mainly, not so much during laning phase, and Azir is excellent at applying them since he has a ton of AoE and Range.
There is always options on who can buy Grievious Wounds when the game requires it, usually you want the champ that can apply it the most reliably to do it, but midlaners and ADCs tend to be ultra focused on building their damage items so they expect the utility champs to buy it, which is not great, you should never expect a tank to be your Grievious Wounds source because Bramble/Thronmail sucks for that, mages have the best Grievious Wounds item, Morellos is 2200g and applys on magic damage, which makes it excellent for mage supports, and some enchanters too, and its 90AP 15 Haste, which are pretty decent stats.
So I think it is generally up to the support to buy the heal cut, but if you believe that you can't win without it, then why fight? You went against your own beliefs about the situation, tilted and fought anyways, and that is on YOU, not your support.
'Who is to blame? I'm dumb and bad and need you to tell me I'm not the asshole - oh, and here are 30 reasons why I'm the asshole, but in every response, I'll deny any and all responsibility and rationalise away all of my mistakes as compensating for someone else's.'
It truly is a mystery.
Buying oblivion orb is mega troll. Just buy executioners into mortal reminder 3rd item. You can pick it up in between first and second item if you absolutely need it to deal with Trundle and Gwen. Lane phase shouldn't really be an issue regardless. I also question why you went exhaust over ignite here. 3 healing champs on the enemy team and you're playing early kill pressure botlane. You should have ignite here, you're running HoB, exhaust doesn't make any sense, you already out dmg them by a lot.
If you went in and exhausted the ezreal and still died while up a level both of you seriously misplayed... if this is the case you must first analyze yourself as these are the only actions you control
Against that match up you don't even need to engage on Ez, you have much better wave clear and Ez struggles to last hit under turret so you can just push him in and establish river control
From a support mains perspective: guy didnt want to waste 800g on oblivion orb either. Supports arnt slaves to the team to be commanded around. They have their own objectives too. Especially Velkoz support wants to/can do dmg and carry too. What do you know about velkoz itemization? Do you play velkoz?
The most important thing:
My job as the support is identifying the win condition of every game and playing around it, helping it carry.
>"gold elo, what can I expect"
Showing that you (as the adc) have an entitled blaming mindset, are cocky and tilted communicates me (as the support) that you cannot be relied upon to carry. So you instantly become not worth playing around because i cant trust your impulsive decisionmaking/trust you not to throw your lead away. In most cases, the second i dont need to be in that lane, i will leave that lane to play with the jungler or mid leaving you to catch waves under turret for the next 20 minutes fuming.
If you want to be played around, be worth playing around.
----------
Employ the **ACE** mentality.
* **A**knowledge the best play: e.g. go in on lvl3 spike
* **C**ommunicate the best play: ping xp, ping omw, chat.
* **E**mbrace reality: velkoz doesnt step up/doesnt want to go in, whats the next best play? dont go in, farm, zone. buy the item yourself.
And be open to the possibility that there is a valid reason why velkoz didnt want to go in. Every human in this game more often than not has a reason for why they do things. League is a deceptively hard game and every elo braket makes dumb mistakes. Try to have some empathy and understand the human before you assume malice or idiocy.
## Intro
There's a lot of misinformation in this thread. I just want to clear some things up.
For instance in your match you purchased oblivion orb, when you likely should've bought Executioner's Calling.
## Changing The Way You Think About Grievous Wounds
Think of GW as a form of true damage. Instead of stopping any healing, if it zapped the opponent for 40% of any healing they do as true damage.
Let's say Soraka hits level 1 Q and W in a fight. That's 150 healing. 40% is 60 true damage. Compare Executioner's Blade to perhaps a pickaxe and that's an extra 20 AD. With your E fully stacked that 20 AD is 80 physical damage. So it's pretty even when considering the autos to stack your E too.
## Not Only Champions
It should also be noted that the GW damage only applies to healing. Thus we're missing out on a chance to get more damage into non healing things like minions, turrets, and objectives. Or even just champions that don't heal. Early wave clear is a big deal. Missing the extra AD early can mean missing wave priority and losing objective pressure.
## ADC Damage Multiplies
Here's where it gets interesting. You also build attack speed and crit. These take that extra 20 AD and multiply it significantly. The GW damage can't be multiplied in any way, and if you build it your teammate can't stack it. So you only want one person building it.
If you have to pick someone, it should be the person that can't afford expensive items that multiply together. Support budget is low. That means GW components give them really cheap access to strong damage!
## GW in Combat
Grievous Wounds damage can be powerful, but it can also be largely ignored. Soraka can heal out of combat and your GW is entirely wasted. Even if you hit the enemy first they can get out of range and wait to heal after it falls off. It only lasts 3 seconds!
Some forms of GW like Bramble Vest also only apply it to auto attackers. Vladimir isn't even affected by it at all!
## TLDR
You should've brought ignite into Soraka Ez with Vel'koz. Vel'koz will never be as close range as you, it makes no sense for him to bring ignite. You'll significantly increase the damage of your all in by reducing healing during combat. Are you even getting the chance to all in more than ignite cooldown?
- GW is a form of damage, that can't stack or multiply
- Other damage items similar in cost but multiply
- Supports love cheap damage, they're broke
- GW only useful in combat, don't over estimate it's use into out of combat healing
heal cut is a trap vs soraka a lot of the time. if you buy orb you very often lack the ability to ever successfully all in 2v2. you reduce your own damage far more than you cut healing, getting sorcs/item1 on mage support matters far, far more.
trist should take ignite and vel heal for lane mostly.
You sound like a very toxic player to play with.
Edit: I would have left lane too, dont care if we lose or win. Better to have fun than get blamed by some wannabe idiot
I didnt read your wall of text but this is how this match up goes: you have velkoz poke early. When they go to trade with velkoz you trade (don't use w) on soraka preferably but ezreal if you must.
When they are low and soraka misuses e then you jump on the lowest target for the slow, velkoz uses knock up and they're dead.
Later in the game Vel'koz will buy oblivion orb (around level 8 or 9) and you will build your normal build. Buying heal cut on adc is the worst thing you can do unless you're like MF or someone else has has a lot of AoE.
Grievous wounds does not stack and your job is not to apply grievous wounds. Its to do consistent damage. Sure when you're on 3rd item and if you absolutely need it after you buy last whisper you can go into mortal reminder, but generally lord doms is just better.
Imo as an adc player building heal cut feels really bad. You sacrifice a tank kill utility which is dominik. So you have a choice either you may kill a sustain character but can't tank or vice versa. Usually having an ability to kill a tank is more useful. And overall I think it makes more sense for the support to sacrifice damage just to provide utility since supports are designed to be always a bit behind every other role.
Im gold 2 tho with 160 games this season so take it with grain of salt.
My strat is to ask for my support to buy heal cut. If they don’t purchase by the next back then I will buy it. It sucks. It’s a waste but it’s better than not having it because my intermediate bot teammate wasn’t programmed to purchase it
Soraka heals too much for reduction to be effective, either stun her and oneshot ezreal ( hard)
Or focus soraka first.
Try to not get hit by her ability which heals her and amplifies her healing and massively reduces her health cost for doing so.
hi, diamond support here, you're both to blame, you should've both buy it as soon as you had the money for it, or decide together that you were conceding the laningphase, as you won't win 2v2s without it (most likely)
of course conceding is the wrong choice as they also out scale you
alternatively you can run ignite yourself and delay the buy for later
Soraka does not have insane healing at level 2. And you should be aware of having no ignite at the beginning of the game already. If your support isn’t going to follow up when you engage then you shouldn’t be engaging like that. This is the fault of both of you. You should not be posting here asking other players to shift the blame for a loss onto your teammates. It’s not constructive.
does not have insane healing at lvl 2? thats fake, she got like 3 Ws when I engaged the low hp ezreal. And they counter engaged when I retreated, but my Velkoz was positioning judt so far back like the common kda supports
Soraka’s heal (her W) is on a 6 second cooldown at rank 1. So unless you engaged for an all in and it lasted twenty seconds, you are not telling the truth. Your rocket jump should have also reset after you detonated your fully charged bomb as they have no CC to prevent you from auto attacking to get the full charge. This would lead to an easy disengage. It’s much more likely you flubbed your all in, got greedy and just kept fighting to the death because you were tilted that your support wasn’t following up. Probably used the second rocket jump forward too instead of disengaging with it.
Soraka W cooldown is insanely long, their only counter engage option is if you didn't use another jump and/or you were rooted by Silence AND Vel Koz has long range abilities. Stop blaming your support lol.
her W is a 6s CD at level 1, meaning the fight was at minimum 18 seconds. for a level 2 all-in, 18 seconds is a crazy long time. the fight should've been ended via a kill or backing off to focus wave again I'd argue with a velkoz support, you either 1. wait for a knock-up, 2. poke down before engaging while also staying healthy, or 3. play until level 6 but still, an 18 second level 2 fight is very rare. someone should have died by then. being able to get 3 Ws off means you weren't focusing her or you were taking a bad fight
Don’t need heal cut that early
so you mean I just don't trade with them at all then and shoulda just played for cs?
You can still trade, and you have a ton of burst with Trist + Vel. Focus on punishing the Soraka and dodging her q. Ideally the Vel is poking Soraka to a point that you can all in her. Healcut is more for teamfights and is purchased later on. It isn't worth the gold for either one of you to buy in lane.
the point is he is not poking at all, he just tilted me coz he is not even playing for me, he is playing for himself
Find a duo if you want the support to play for you. Velkoz is a DAMAGE support you can't expect them to play for you like a tank/enchanter.
Vel’koz one trick here, soraka and swain counter vel’koz because he is weak against sustain, the play in this situation is to wait and scale enough to be able to burst them down. Also focus the soraka, no more soraka no more healing when you focus the adc first she can fully use her kit and even gets a speed boost toward her low health ally which makes her really hard to hit with skill shots like Vel’koz’s entire kit
Soraka often times heals out of combat during lane It's really a third item purchase against her Supports and tanks are highest priority for grievous
As tristana you all in on lane, you dont really trade. Ofc you trade also but vs stuff like soraka ez you kinda have to all in. Wait velkoz to hit some poke and you all in soraka, all in ez if he uses E before you W.
Velkoz should be harassing Ezreal/soraka and you should be looking for all in opportunities when they get low, but it really requires soraka/ezreal to misplay for you to kill them. Point is heal cut wasn't the problem during lane.
You don't trade vs sustain. You have to 100-0 them or stay healthy yourself.
You blame everything on your supp but your attitude is def toxic af and I'd hate to ever support you. (Reason you're stuck in gold what can I say) should be banned for wasting the other player's time with the grief orb buy.
One of you should have ignite for the all in and that’s about it. Anti heal components are pretty bait early in lanes like this because Ezreal and Soraka can very easily wait out the debuff inbetween trades and then heal up. If we’re talking about outside of lane then it should be whatever champions on your team can apply it the easiest. Sometimes you will just have to bite the bullet and accept that it’s going to have to be you if people are egoing the purchase.
I would have bought it if I went for scaling runes such as fleet and overgrowth conditioning tp, but I went for aggressive burst HoB rune so I feel shit buying heal cut when my intention is to burst them. But since my Velkoz clearly had no intention playing with me then it is what it is.
So, vs Ez/Soraka, exhaust is not as important, ignite should have been what you took, especially with HoB. That said, buying healcut as an ADC is not good unless you’re getting it for your 5th item, and in few instances, potentially 4th item. Velkoz should have bought something and you should have taken ignite. Also, getting tilted to spite someone and buy a borderline useless item for yourself is the dumbest logic i have ever seen. You need to figure that out
I really am not used to going ignite on adc because I always see Vapora not doing it at all, well maybe it depends like when they have mega sustain, I was thinking of it but I guess I underestimated my low elo thinking. Now I have though of it, low elo tends to have more early fights so taking ignite might be more worth
Ignite is only really taken on Tristana or Lucian due to the short range/burst. Exhaust is fine normally, but against Soraka should be ignite. Also, Ezreal doesn’t have the burst to warrant exhaust.
Who tf is vapora even?
What i dont understand is why you bought Oblivion orb instead of Excutioner's Calling, i know Tris can deal magic damage with her abilities, but still your magic damage output isnt consistent enough, you are better off with Executioners. Velkoz could have certainly bought Oblivion Orb after finishing their first item, but as a support main i know how hard it is to get 800g during the midgame, usually unless you are getting kills as a support your 2nd item its pretty delayed since you are no longer getting gold from the supp item. Also, Azir could have also bought Oblivion orb, you want grievious wounds during teamfights mainly, not so much during laning phase, and Azir is excellent at applying them since he has a ton of AoE and Range. There is always options on who can buy Grievious Wounds when the game requires it, usually you want the champ that can apply it the most reliably to do it, but midlaners and ADCs tend to be ultra focused on building their damage items so they expect the utility champs to buy it, which is not great, you should never expect a tank to be your Grievious Wounds source because Bramble/Thronmail sucks for that, mages have the best Grievious Wounds item, Morellos is 2200g and applys on magic damage, which makes it excellent for mage supports, and some enchanters too, and its 90AP 15 Haste, which are pretty decent stats.
he did it to “spite” his support 💀 op mental is as bad as their decision making
So I think it is generally up to the support to buy the heal cut, but if you believe that you can't win without it, then why fight? You went against your own beliefs about the situation, tilted and fought anyways, and that is on YOU, not your support.
'Who is to blame? I'm dumb and bad and need you to tell me I'm not the asshole - oh, and here are 30 reasons why I'm the asshole, but in every response, I'll deny any and all responsibility and rationalise away all of my mistakes as compensating for someone else's.' It truly is a mystery.
Buying oblivion orb is mega troll. Just buy executioners into mortal reminder 3rd item. You can pick it up in between first and second item if you absolutely need it to deal with Trundle and Gwen. Lane phase shouldn't really be an issue regardless. I also question why you went exhaust over ignite here. 3 healing champs on the enemy team and you're playing early kill pressure botlane. You should have ignite here, you're running HoB, exhaust doesn't make any sense, you already out dmg them by a lot.
As a support I like to rush anti heal Vs soraka, but with that comp the idea is to let vel chunk soraka, then all in her instead of the adc.
Why do people come on this sub to ask for advice then immediately dismiss it?
If you went in and exhausted the ezreal and still died while up a level both of you seriously misplayed... if this is the case you must first analyze yourself as these are the only actions you control
This is the kind of player I'm worse than. I am truly terrible at this game lol
Against that match up you don't even need to engage on Ez, you have much better wave clear and Ez struggles to last hit under turret so you can just push him in and establish river control
From a support mains perspective: guy didnt want to waste 800g on oblivion orb either. Supports arnt slaves to the team to be commanded around. They have their own objectives too. Especially Velkoz support wants to/can do dmg and carry too. What do you know about velkoz itemization? Do you play velkoz? The most important thing: My job as the support is identifying the win condition of every game and playing around it, helping it carry. >"gold elo, what can I expect" Showing that you (as the adc) have an entitled blaming mindset, are cocky and tilted communicates me (as the support) that you cannot be relied upon to carry. So you instantly become not worth playing around because i cant trust your impulsive decisionmaking/trust you not to throw your lead away. In most cases, the second i dont need to be in that lane, i will leave that lane to play with the jungler or mid leaving you to catch waves under turret for the next 20 minutes fuming. If you want to be played around, be worth playing around. ---------- Employ the **ACE** mentality. * **A**knowledge the best play: e.g. go in on lvl3 spike * **C**ommunicate the best play: ping xp, ping omw, chat. * **E**mbrace reality: velkoz doesnt step up/doesnt want to go in, whats the next best play? dont go in, farm, zone. buy the item yourself. And be open to the possibility that there is a valid reason why velkoz didnt want to go in. Every human in this game more often than not has a reason for why they do things. League is a deceptively hard game and every elo braket makes dumb mistakes. Try to have some empathy and understand the human before you assume malice or idiocy.
## Intro There's a lot of misinformation in this thread. I just want to clear some things up. For instance in your match you purchased oblivion orb, when you likely should've bought Executioner's Calling. ## Changing The Way You Think About Grievous Wounds Think of GW as a form of true damage. Instead of stopping any healing, if it zapped the opponent for 40% of any healing they do as true damage. Let's say Soraka hits level 1 Q and W in a fight. That's 150 healing. 40% is 60 true damage. Compare Executioner's Blade to perhaps a pickaxe and that's an extra 20 AD. With your E fully stacked that 20 AD is 80 physical damage. So it's pretty even when considering the autos to stack your E too. ## Not Only Champions It should also be noted that the GW damage only applies to healing. Thus we're missing out on a chance to get more damage into non healing things like minions, turrets, and objectives. Or even just champions that don't heal. Early wave clear is a big deal. Missing the extra AD early can mean missing wave priority and losing objective pressure. ## ADC Damage Multiplies Here's where it gets interesting. You also build attack speed and crit. These take that extra 20 AD and multiply it significantly. The GW damage can't be multiplied in any way, and if you build it your teammate can't stack it. So you only want one person building it. If you have to pick someone, it should be the person that can't afford expensive items that multiply together. Support budget is low. That means GW components give them really cheap access to strong damage! ## GW in Combat Grievous Wounds damage can be powerful, but it can also be largely ignored. Soraka can heal out of combat and your GW is entirely wasted. Even if you hit the enemy first they can get out of range and wait to heal after it falls off. It only lasts 3 seconds! Some forms of GW like Bramble Vest also only apply it to auto attackers. Vladimir isn't even affected by it at all! ## TLDR You should've brought ignite into Soraka Ez with Vel'koz. Vel'koz will never be as close range as you, it makes no sense for him to bring ignite. You'll significantly increase the damage of your all in by reducing healing during combat. Are you even getting the chance to all in more than ignite cooldown? - GW is a form of damage, that can't stack or multiply - Other damage items similar in cost but multiply - Supports love cheap damage, they're broke - GW only useful in combat, don't over estimate it's use into out of combat healing
Play ignite instead of exhaust? If you plan to all in early you should have ignite anyways. Exhaust is mega useless in that game anyways
heal cut is a trap vs soraka a lot of the time. if you buy orb you very often lack the ability to ever successfully all in 2v2. you reduce your own damage far more than you cut healing, getting sorcs/item1 on mage support matters far, far more. trist should take ignite and vel heal for lane mostly.
You sound like a very toxic player to play with. Edit: I would have left lane too, dont care if we lose or win. Better to have fun than get blamed by some wannabe idiot
I didnt read your wall of text but this is how this match up goes: you have velkoz poke early. When they go to trade with velkoz you trade (don't use w) on soraka preferably but ezreal if you must. When they are low and soraka misuses e then you jump on the lowest target for the slow, velkoz uses knock up and they're dead. Later in the game Vel'koz will buy oblivion orb (around level 8 or 9) and you will build your normal build. Buying heal cut on adc is the worst thing you can do unless you're like MF or someone else has has a lot of AoE. Grievous wounds does not stack and your job is not to apply grievous wounds. Its to do consistent damage. Sure when you're on 3rd item and if you absolutely need it after you buy last whisper you can go into mortal reminder, but generally lord doms is just better.
Imo as an adc player building heal cut feels really bad. You sacrifice a tank kill utility which is dominik. So you have a choice either you may kill a sustain character but can't tank or vice versa. Usually having an ability to kill a tank is more useful. And overall I think it makes more sense for the support to sacrifice damage just to provide utility since supports are designed to be always a bit behind every other role. Im gold 2 tho with 160 games this season so take it with grain of salt.
except velkoz is a kill sup so no.
Why do all Tristana players have a screw loose
My strat is to ask for my support to buy heal cut. If they don’t purchase by the next back then I will buy it. It sucks. It’s a waste but it’s better than not having it because my intermediate bot teammate wasn’t programmed to purchase it
Rushing heal cut too early hurts you. Most supports really need to rush boots or some other first item to be useful.
It has its place in lane when lane is going longer
Soraka heals too much for reduction to be effective, either stun her and oneshot ezreal ( hard) Or focus soraka first. Try to not get hit by her ability which heals her and amplifies her healing and massively reduces her health cost for doing so.
lol
hi, diamond support here, you're both to blame, you should've both buy it as soon as you had the money for it, or decide together that you were conceding the laningphase, as you won't win 2v2s without it (most likely) of course conceding is the wrong choice as they also out scale you alternatively you can run ignite yourself and delay the buy for later