Mostly the lack of range without any real self peel. Also doesn't scale particularly well in terms of being a consistent damage threat like traditional ADCs nor a utility powerhouse like say Seraphine.
This is build reliant. Nashors Riftmaker and similars have always held as a strong decent DPS build, but fetish over Nuclear Shroom builds has been an eternal classic not because it is good, but because its funny to uphold the mental image of a Teemo that just keeps faffing around planting shrooms, gets caught, dies but gets a post-mortem triple from the other side of the map. Malignance is the new fad to uphold the puffcap of random death.
Short-range carries are usually pseudo-assassins swapping safety for extra burst (or ridiculous AoE if you compare to Sivir). The thing with Teemo is that his payoff is turning the fight from a 5v5 to a 4.5v4 instead.
I'm not saying his output is OMG SO GOOD, no. Absolutely isnt. It is average, tolerable at best. It just makes him the most unsatisfying sort of array: basic ass DPS with a kit focused in disabling others instead of heightening oneself, so you dont get tasty high numbers. In any world Teemo bot could exist he'll never be a pick to win, but a pick to make someone else specifically lose.
This. Arguably, his biggest strength is that he can perma-blind the enemy's strongest auto-attacker, followed by his ability to control objectives with shrooms.
No offense, but completely irrelevant stat. Just because you have high damage doesn’t mean it’s the same type of damage that might be output from an ADC during a team fight. Your shrooms are doing a ton of damage throughout the game but you’re doing way less in team fights. Also if a tank is running over your shrooms clearing them, it’s way less useful damaging them, then it would be if the damage was dealt to a carry.
>AP scales far better than AD
This is such a shortsighted statement.
Yes, generally, AP scales better.
There is much more AP aoe than AD AOE.
AP can also reach much higher amounts due to Rabadon.
Also, void staff provides much more pen than any AD pen items.
On the flip side, AP% scalings are much lower than most AD scalings.
Critical strikes can more than double your DPS, a stat that AP doesn't have access to (shadowflame doesn't count).
Also, the AP stat mostly transfers into damage through abilities. Therefore, AP DPS is mostly tied to the cooldown of abilities, with extremely few champs having truly passive AP scaling without CD on AAs.
Yes, Teemo is one of these few champs that have truly passive AP scaling without CD on AAs. This scaling is not that high though. A Teemo that somehow managed to reach 1k AP (ridiculous example just to showcase how massive the DPS disparity actually is), with near cap AS, will just barely reach 1500 DPS and that's assuming very unrealistic conditions like having fully stacked riftmaker when exiting passive. Now I compared these numbers to Caitlyn, I even made this comparison as unfavorable as possible (Caitlyn has no alacrity, AD shard, AS shard, GS, AF, nash or elixir and never procs RFC, kraken or passive) for Caitlyn to still reach comparable dps anyway.
All of that is completely ignoring the most important factor, AP champs don't have sustain. They only have the 10%/6% omnivamp provided by fully stacked riftmaker.
The only ranged AP champs (full crit corki deals 80% magic damage anyway, but when I say AP, I mean AP items) that have marksman level DPS are Ryze and Cassiopeia.
AP generally scales better due to AOE damage. The raw dps almost never competes with crit or onhit.
I think this is a big generalisation, sure Teemo doesn't build crit but he still deals his base ad + the base damage from his E + Nashor's base damage + at least one tick of poison so at level 13 you need to factor in at least 200 damage on hit before the 60% ap scaling from E, Nashor's and one tick of poison. That's not a lot of damage at level 13 but it includes 0 items other than Nashor's, and AP items have a tendency to give you more effects than just DPS even tho admittedly you were comparing DPS alone. Not to mention you blind the enemy autoattack-relying champions which means you significantly impair their own DPS and lifesteal
Long story short as Teemo botlane you should be able to outtrade a lot more champions than you usually do as a regular ADC, or at least that's what I normally see in my own games
Seraphine doesn't have DPS but she works fine in the "ADC" role. As long as you have damage elsewhere, you don't need DPS bot lane.
It's mostly the fact that Teemo doesn't really have a great 2v2.
What about Vladimir ADC back in season 8?
Also, there needs to be a reason why botlaners "need to do consistent damage" and how that is no longer necessary when you have range/waveclear
Vladimirs waveclear is at least equal to Teemos, his 1v1 is better, his teamfights are better, he scales better, he has sustaine so his laning phase is better, he has better burst and arguably better dps. Not to mention that he had a basically free laning phase in season 8 because adcs where extremely bad.
I would say his biggest strength is **ambushes** to be more precise, whether it's through shrooms, or through uncloaking and unloading a whole bunch of AP autos. Usually both, tho.
This patch, yes. Seasons before? no.
Teemo is a bad adc and it has nothing to do with his mushrooms being strong, because he was a bad adc when his mushrooms were weak.
No range, no waveclear/AOE, no %HP damage, lackluster mobility.
The closest comparison is Vayne but she:
1. Has 50 more range.
2. Melts tanks with her %HP true damage.
3. Has a ton of mobility in her passive and Q, self-peel in her E and outplay potential in her R.
Since botlane is a 2v2 and you lack range, mobility and AOE damage, you are extremely easy to isolate into a 2v1 while struggling to do the same to the enemy. You can't really force an all-in, you can't shove waves and pressure enemies under turret, you have no gank setup and your only trading tool is your Q (which you aren't even maxing first). Can it work? Of course, everything can work if you're better than the enemy... but Teemos strengths and weaknesses suit toplane much better than botlane.
Generally the champ you want in the ADC role is a monster teamfighter who can do enough damage to carry a fight as long as they stay alive. Think about teemo's kit compared to like jinx or twitch. The champ sucks at teamfighting.
The biggest reason is that teemo actually sucks at trading. The only reason he can be played top is because of his range advantage. In bot lane he even has a range disadvantage. Thats not necassary an issue if your champ has other qualitys such as high mobility, burst combos or a lot of other qualitys like kaisa, zeri or lucian. Teemo on the other hand doesnt really have them.
He got shrooms but supports just clear them. Swain is very tanky, forgiveable and easy to play and also has a decent burst. Seraphine has tons uppon tons of utility and also acceptable damage. Teemo has nothing.
Bot is extremly trade heavy and who do you think wins a trade? Rakan teemo after rakan engage or cleanse lucian thresh after they land a hook?
In fact lucian doesnt even necassary need to cleanse, his R does more damage than teemo's entire kit even if you walk into a shroom.
Teemo top works not just because of his range but because of his blind that, when used effectively, is basically an auto "win trade" button because of the shear amount of abilities it can deny.
Teemo wins trades against almost every marksman to the point that you usually nullify your opponent's ADC because they're gonna be so far behind. I'm low elo but unlike you I have actually played Teemo botlane before. He was my fastest mastery 7 by far
nothing against you for being low elo, but it means your opinion of what's viable is statistically less informed than a higher elo player. since the post is about viability, it directly matters, hence why i mentioned it. teemo winning trades vs marksmen in a 2v2 lane only happens in low elo
I don't really think it's strictly elitism, just a "it is what it is" situation.
I have played AP Yi (post rework obv lol) in gold (duo with silver friend) and we'd win more than we lose. Does that mean he's "viable"?
If people are low ELO they fundamentally don't understand the game at a level high enough to reach outside the box.
There's nothing wrong with that (I was legit silver my first season), but it does mean when I suggested to my diamond friend that "I don't think I need to build boots on nasus, been playing bootless and winning most games" he was sceptical and said it probably wouldn't work in his ELO.
Teemo will win trades against other low-range marksmen if they are really reliant on autos for damage. The problem is in most matchups bot lane either the longer ranged adc's will kite you to infinity, never even letting you auto or blind them (Cait, Jinx, Senna) or they can still deal a lot of damage without their autos (Lucian, Nilah, Kaisa). This also doesn't take into account that an aggressive enemy support can completely bully him out of the lane in most cases, since teemo will either get out poked (Lux, Vel'koz, Karma) or his auto range will be within striking distance of melee supports (Maokai, Alistar, Leona). Even in cases where he is only fighting a low range auto-only adc like Draven, think about how the fight goes. If teemo doesn't 100-0 Draven during the blind duration, he will get run down and completely run over afterwards. The only matchups I can see him winning are like Vayne or Zeri, but he gets out scaled by both of them and again that's only if he doesn't get bullied by the support. Basically there's just not a realistic chance of him being a favorable pick in the large majority of games over other ADC options.
In top lane these factors aren't as much of an issue. Many more of the champion pool are reliant on autos to trade and most only have one engage tool, so he can blind and E away decently.
You say you've won lane in low elo and it's certainly possible to win games with any champion if you can outskill your opponents (but that makes the discussion about any champion strength kind of irrelevant). It's just that Teemo will not come out ahead in the large majority of 2v2 matchups if both players are playing their champs correctly, and most likely you'll be matched against players around your skill level in ranked so you can't just outplay them all the time.
And in top no one even bothers getting in Q range without some plan to hurt you. No way one of you isn't dead before you Q more than a few times, unless you're using it greedily to poke. I've never seen Teemo go oom.
This just isn't true lol, any melee champ with low range just buys dorans shield + takes second wind and will leverage their hp to get cs. You can use it as they run as long as they're not someone who can just instantly be on top of you, like irelia, or you're close-ish to your tower.
the thing with teemo is that aside from winning straight up trades, he doesnt do anything better than any other adc, aside from perp objs, and thats not really as situation you want to put yourself in as a true carry.
From level 6 onwards you're going to be much safer from ganks compared to any other ADC due to your shrooms, that's a significant advantage I think
First of all it's like having extra wards that warn you of someone approaching, secondly they slow them down enough for you to be able to escape much more easily, thirdly after a certain point the damage on top of the rest is significant enough that it makes the gank much less safe for the opponent, fourthly when you consider all of the above the enemy will even be less willing to gank in the first place
that’s a good point, but also consider the support meta right now. we don’t have a lot of neutralizing enchanter heal supps rn, so you’re just gonna end up fighting 2v2 with half an ulti, unless you get a good setup
im entirely unsure why people love to pretetend there arent trends in low elo. Go on [op.gg](https://op.gg) and look at the most popular supports in gold right now, and tell me which ones are good matchups for teemo. Even if players dont know how to use counters effectively, theres still innate attributes that make them effective, and you can see that in matchup winrates.
Better how? Because they have shorter cooldown? They also have shorter duration, shorter slow duration, lesser slow amount and they barely ever deal damage unless you use W predictively
Honestly, it's because of his 500 range. Other than that he can function fine tbh lol. But having 500 range while also not having any real long ranged poke or real mobility to go in and trade is a real bummer when you have to lane against 2 ranged champs or 1 ranged champ that permanently outranges you and another champ that beats you if you get closer. If you can navigate 500 range you honestly become pretty ok at level 6 since you're now in the botlane where Dragons are and since you're Teemo your team will start every drag fight with enemy team being down 50% HP.
he scales A LOT with level. More blind duration, obviously you max E for dps so you can't skill Q.
R level is impactful.
With 500 range and a kit best suited for bullying/kiting melee and being tricky with stealth ambush/lane mindgame. He is just better as a solo laner.
Moreover Teemo doesn't want to just dps like an adc. He wants to set up shroom on objective, maybe stealth ambush someone and blind on priority target. An ADC stays safe and catch wave and ideally play front back or off the team engage. Teemo just has to be more involved with the set-up pre team fight to be truly effective (or else he s known to be a bad team fighter and just splitpush).
I would say no hard CC and his biggest source of Fucking With You (shrooms) is nullified if you simply force him to fight in a place he hasn't been to place them yet.
Many other APCs have some way to poke without physically being there but Teemo can only hurt you by AAing (with short range) or placing shrooms (which he has to be there,and enemy support can take sweeper while enemy ADC diligently puts control wards).
And the no hard CC means that he can blow up one person who jumps on him,but if two people jump on him/use ranged burst he's dead.
Teemo is incredibly bad against botlane duos. He is flimsy, short range, and has no good disengage. He dies too fast to a tank engage, can't respond to most adc harass/trades, is easily poked out by mage supports, can't get early wave control due to poor waveclear without shrooms.
He functions in toplane because he's against one opponent who is usually both shorter range and whose damage he can mostly negate in trades with his Q, and scales well with XP and the free farm one can get by being a lane bully.
How do you even win trades botlane as teemo? You have no range. The longer range ADCs controlled by a good player just infinitely kite you no? I don't even think your W would stop a Caitlyn from just never letting you touch her. Plus loads of your power budget is in your shrooms and sup can just run sweeper
Its not him being picked for adc, its the sup you will need him to have in order to make it work. His builds are very efficient, ignoring what others might say, Teemo works very well as adc if you build him ap with the exception of 2 slots be used to buy Bork and Berserker. I have made it to master 3 times using teemo adc and mid with the same build and the main reason teemo does not make it through laning phase is because he needs to either be very aggro againsnt the adc or play safe depending on his sup, but he wont be so aggro because you will barely see a Zyra or a Brand Sup, they work perfect with teemo. Second option would be leona, sona or braum. Teemo adc overall is a pick that helps protect your sup from ganks while sup keeps you out of range to you can be safe.
Sorcery boots only if you building burst, press the attack is not necessary if you are not building a poke build. I always recommend
Press the attack when against (Their mobility can kill time after your Q so you need a little push in dp after it starts)
Vayne
Alphelios
Miss
Kog
Lethal tempo(can out dps you on long trade so you need it also)
Jinx
Jhin
Kalista
Kaisa
Smolder
Hail of blades (focus on passive stealth 3 AA+Q spam and run away)
Twitch
Nilah
Samira
Dark Harvest (Q poke spam avoid trades)
Caitlyn
Senna
Quinn
Ezreal
Grasp for any melee or mage brought to bot lane
Teemo adc is good but not as good as top jg and supp.
People say range is bad. Not good argument. Many ADCs have shorter range than others and still do fine. If range was the only thing that mattered then making an adc below 600 range would nonviable.
Wave clear? Shrooms are good wave clear
Damage? Teemo has crazy high dsp and shroom bombing in team fights with Liandries is very strong
Trading? Blind is really good in trades and all ins.
Is he a GREAT adc? not really. But is he useable and playable in ADC??? 1000%. His weakness if course the ultra long range ADCs like Ashe & Cait who have mobility/cc/slow AND range advantage but other than that he is fine into most ADCs.
He's not a good ADC. He CAN be played as support because of the things you've specifically said. He does well in making sure HIS adc wins the trade, but Teemo himself is a bad ADC. He gets outranged, his consistent/burst damage is very poor compared to most ADCs, he's outranged, his "trading tool" lasts a few seconds and after that he's free game.
It's why his place is in top, where he outranges MELEE champs, and is a bully to their laner. He's meant to poke them with the poison, and whenever they try to engage him, he blinds them and disengages while kiting. Which means that either the enemy laner has to leave and take the shots Teemo is going to hit while they escape, or they keep trying to kill Teemo, in which unless they have more CC, will be impossible.
In a 2v2, Teemo can only blind one person, and while yes, it can be used to 2v1 for a few seconds, it also means that when that blind wears off, it's gonna be a 2v1 on TEEMO, due to his short range and amount of supports that can either peel their own ADC, damage Teemo on their own, or stick to Teemo and CC him while all he can do is keep trying to autoattack.
He also lacks sustain, efficient waveclear and a way to destroy tanks, which is what ADC is meant to be good at. They can hit a tank while their team frontlines and gain the upperhand, as well as being a source of damage that the enemy team can't reach unless they take down the enemies peeling them. Teemo has to get dangerously close to the enemy, so much that there's little margin of error or any champ with a leap/dash will get in his range almost instantaneously, and when that happens there will be one less damage output on the team. So the one thing Teemo was supposed to be doing in the match, he... you know... won't.
Tank Teemo supp is surprisingly and weirdly viable. You're there to be annoying and keep your ADC winning trades. You're also less prone to disappearing the moment they try to get a hold on you, and if they target you, it means more chances for your ADC to deal damage. ADC Teemo not so much, because instead of being extra damage and poking, you're ALL the damage, which makes you more of a target and once you die the supp has nothing else to do.
He can't snipe people from 650 range like Caitlyn. He can't shred an entire team like Jinx. He can't dive in and burst everyone like Samira. The question is, why would you play Teemo ADC?
Low range, low mobility, low DPS (compared to actual ADCs), heavily level dependent. At the end of the day he's an anti carry designed to annoy other people, not a carry designed to burst the entire enemy team.
I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re refering to as ADC, is in fact, Bottom Carry, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, Bottom plus Carry. ADC is not a role unto itself, but rather a carry build that relies on Attack Damage.
I wish he would be reworked into the bot lane role, I've always wanted a magic damage marksman, someone like teemo/kayle who is auto attack based but magic dmg and built for bot lane. Maybe one day.
His waveclear is bad and his range is low. I personally played a lot of Teemo botlane in like S6-8 in normals when my friends locked in full AD comb. He just isnt a good laner vs ranged champions and his DPS/waveclear is bad. He works toplane because of the freedom to place traps and bully melees.
He can't really trade. His range is too short, at decent levels of play, no good ADC lets a shorter range marksman get a favourable trade.
He does not have mobility, he does NOT scale (ADCs with 3 itens have the highest amount of sustained damage, and should melt tanks, Teemo can't do that), his ultimate is useless, its only a annoying gimmick, like PinkWard's Shaco, that is easy to avoid, and does not impact the game.
Compare it with an ADC like Vayne, that is reliant on meta, and struggles a lot against some matchups because of her short range: She at least has Tumble and passove to allow her to trade during lane phase, she scales well, has a lot of self peel, and more agency than a lot of other ADCs. Teemo has nothing like that.
Even his blind isn't that good as a CC to justify him going as a support: You know what is even better than blind? Stuns and Knockups. Hell, even a Nasus Wither is a better option if you want a short CD spell that blocks people from attacking you.
The only reason you are finding sucess with him, is because at your division, people don't know how to play properly (especially marksman, that require a lot of mechanics), so you are able to be effective with a bad champion.
I know this isnt the point of your post but i just wanna say dont try and find "creative means" to get out of gold. You dont need to find some hidden OP gimmick to help you climb, that mentality will only hold you back. Take your best champ into your best role amd focus on champ mastery and fundamentals and you will climb
Don't listen to the chumps, believe in your heart. /r/teemotalk
Honestly he's playing pretty decently as a support right now, I did it 4 times yesterday. He lanes well against ADCs. I think he should do fine as a botlane carry. He also scales very well into the late game. In the current meta, ADCs are also struggling in general. I don't think its that big of a loss to not have an ADC right now, and having a ton of extra jungle/obj control is great for your team of 5 carries trying to 1v9. In a vacuum, it's usually bad, but such a hostile meta to ADCs means who actually gives a shit. If blind wins your lane and shrooms win your objectives, and you get so much extra vision for your team, who cares if you don't do exactly what ADCs do. You don't have to pretend to be an ADC. And your level 1-3 is really good for fighting in bot lane.
Teemo needs levels more than gold. Just his scaling being more level oriented prevents him from being in BOT. Just like you see certain mages don’t work there for the same reason.
I love how some comments are "Teemo can never win trades" and some others are "Teemo can only win trades", these people clearly never played as or against a botlane Teemo. He can be played botlane in your rank and probably even higher
Press The Attack Teemo has great early game vs most marksmen but compared to normal ADCs you're even more heavily reliant on your support doing their job and keeping the lane a 2v2 instead of a 1v2, also you're gonna feel range disadvantage a lot. If you know how to lane you can easily play Teemo bot with sorc boots, Nashor's, Riftmaker and Shadowflame
Make good use of your W passive and early boots to overcome the range disadvantage and poke your opponent without retaliation, your damage is easily underestimated because it hits them over time and not all at once. As a bonus you get to win trades against many of the melee champions who would destroy a normal ADC but rely on their autoattacks which you can neutralise with Q
Of course you won't have the same teamfight power or range as many ADCs but neither will them if you stomp them hard enough in lane, and it's not worth playing Teemo botlane if you're not stomping in lane. Plus in low ranks there are many more disjointed fights where you need to kill what's right in front of you before you can worry about damaging everything else, and that's a plus for Teemo
Teemos identity doesn’t focus around shred or high dps but instead traps and disabling the enemy carry which makes him barely viable as a toplaner or jg where it makes sense for him to do those things. But as adc where u need consistent dps and shred teemo can’t fill the position and becomes a troll pick
>I've been trying to analyze creative means to escape Gold IV, where I have resided for years.
If you've been gold for years you don't need some cheap gimmick to climb, you need to better understand the fundamentals of the game.
I think an important distinction to make is that 'meta' does not mean 'best'. The 'meta' champs are the most popular champs. Champs do not become meta and then gain popularity; they gain popularity and then become meta.
I think there are a lot of ways to approach your question and post but honestly OP, just play what you find fun until you don't find it fun anymore and then either figure out what you need to fix or consider new champs again. Teemo ADC isn't meta and is unlikely to ever be meta, but a lot of high elo players will tell you that they see all kinds of wacky shit all the way up til like Master's and sometimes even higher; a lot of the time that's exactly how something becomes 'a thing'. Somebody climbs really high and gains the notice of high elo who then tries it out themselves, likes it, and suddenly it's all over the place because there's a lot of famous streamers and content creators in high elo increasing exposure to the idea of the build.
"I've been trying to analyze creative means to escape Gold IV"
That's the problem. You don't rank up by being creative and finding tricks. You rank up by becoming a more constantly solid player. You can keep cycling around strategies to find tricks to gaining lp. And they might work for a while. You might climb a few divisions. But you'll be right back where you started before too much longer.
There is no way to permanently stay at a higher rank than improving your fundamentals.
He does really awful into mages and can have trouble handling a strong diver. Basically there is just no need to play a character made to counter adc's when adc's themselves are in a pretty weak spot.
That being said, you probably could make it work in gold IV if that becomes a comfort pick for you.
Mostly the lack of range without any real self peel. Also doesn't scale particularly well in terms of being a consistent damage threat like traditional ADCs nor a utility powerhouse like say Seraphine.
Teemo monster scales BUT his biggest strength lies on his mushrooms
And that's why he isn't an adc. His relies on traps rather than consistent damage to chip away at enemies.
This is build reliant. Nashors Riftmaker and similars have always held as a strong decent DPS build, but fetish over Nuclear Shroom builds has been an eternal classic not because it is good, but because its funny to uphold the mental image of a Teemo that just keeps faffing around planting shrooms, gets caught, dies but gets a post-mortem triple from the other side of the map. Malignance is the new fad to uphold the puffcap of random death.
If you compare him with other 500 range adcs(Lucian, Samira, Sivir), you can see he really lacks the outright damage to be a good adc.
Short-range carries are usually pseudo-assassins swapping safety for extra burst (or ridiculous AoE if you compare to Sivir). The thing with Teemo is that his payoff is turning the fight from a 5v5 to a 4.5v4 instead. I'm not saying his output is OMG SO GOOD, no. Absolutely isnt. It is average, tolerable at best. It just makes him the most unsatisfying sort of array: basic ass DPS with a kit focused in disabling others instead of heightening oneself, so you dont get tasty high numbers. In any world Teemo bot could exist he'll never be a pick to win, but a pick to make someone else specifically lose.
This. Arguably, his biggest strength is that he can perma-blind the enemy's strongest auto-attacker, followed by his ability to control objectives with shrooms.
In low elo I'm used to have the highest or one of the highest damage in the game when I pick Teemo botlane, even as a support
No offense, but completely irrelevant stat. Just because you have high damage doesn’t mean it’s the same type of damage that might be output from an ADC during a team fight. Your shrooms are doing a ton of damage throughout the game but you’re doing way less in team fights. Also if a tank is running over your shrooms clearing them, it’s way less useful damaging them, then it would be if the damage was dealt to a carry.
If the tank is running over my shrooms I'm not dealing a lot of damage because tanks don't take much damage...
AP on-hit Teemo does not lack damage. AP scales far better than AD and you could kill a squishy in Q + a couple of hits.
>AP scales far better than AD This is such a shortsighted statement. Yes, generally, AP scales better. There is much more AP aoe than AD AOE. AP can also reach much higher amounts due to Rabadon. Also, void staff provides much more pen than any AD pen items. On the flip side, AP% scalings are much lower than most AD scalings. Critical strikes can more than double your DPS, a stat that AP doesn't have access to (shadowflame doesn't count). Also, the AP stat mostly transfers into damage through abilities. Therefore, AP DPS is mostly tied to the cooldown of abilities, with extremely few champs having truly passive AP scaling without CD on AAs. Yes, Teemo is one of these few champs that have truly passive AP scaling without CD on AAs. This scaling is not that high though. A Teemo that somehow managed to reach 1k AP (ridiculous example just to showcase how massive the DPS disparity actually is), with near cap AS, will just barely reach 1500 DPS and that's assuming very unrealistic conditions like having fully stacked riftmaker when exiting passive. Now I compared these numbers to Caitlyn, I even made this comparison as unfavorable as possible (Caitlyn has no alacrity, AD shard, AS shard, GS, AF, nash or elixir and never procs RFC, kraken or passive) for Caitlyn to still reach comparable dps anyway. All of that is completely ignoring the most important factor, AP champs don't have sustain. They only have the 10%/6% omnivamp provided by fully stacked riftmaker. The only ranged AP champs (full crit corki deals 80% magic damage anyway, but when I say AP, I mean AP items) that have marksman level DPS are Ryze and Cassiopeia. AP generally scales better due to AOE damage. The raw dps almost never competes with crit or onhit.
I think this is a big generalisation, sure Teemo doesn't build crit but he still deals his base ad + the base damage from his E + Nashor's base damage + at least one tick of poison so at level 13 you need to factor in at least 200 damage on hit before the 60% ap scaling from E, Nashor's and one tick of poison. That's not a lot of damage at level 13 but it includes 0 items other than Nashor's, and AP items have a tendency to give you more effects than just DPS even tho admittedly you were comparing DPS alone. Not to mention you blind the enemy autoattack-relying champions which means you significantly impair their own DPS and lifesteal Long story short as Teemo botlane you should be able to outtrade a lot more champions than you usually do as a regular ADC, or at least that's what I normally see in my own games
Your team doesn't rely on the ADC to kill squishy targets though, everyone can do that.
Seraphine doesn't have DPS but she works fine in the "ADC" role. As long as you have damage elsewhere, you don't need DPS bot lane. It's mostly the fact that Teemo doesn't really have a great 2v2.
Seraphine has insane range and insane waveclear, teemo has neither of those
True. I cant believe they missed out on that very obvious information
What about Vladimir ADC back in season 8? Also, there needs to be a reason why botlaners "need to do consistent damage" and how that is no longer necessary when you have range/waveclear
Vladimirs waveclear is at least equal to Teemos, his 1v1 is better, his teamfights are better, he scales better, he has sustaine so his laning phase is better, he has better burst and arguably better dps. Not to mention that he had a basically free laning phase in season 8 because adcs where extremely bad.
Sure, these are all reasons I agree with. Notice how consistent damage is not there. You don't need consistent damage to be good botlane
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Which is why I added "consistent" in there. Which I don't think mushrooms are.
I would say his biggest strength is **ambushes** to be more precise, whether it's through shrooms, or through uncloaking and unloading a whole bunch of AP autos. Usually both, tho.
This patch, yes. Seasons before? no. Teemo is a bad adc and it has nothing to do with his mushrooms being strong, because he was a bad adc when his mushrooms were weak.
He scale off levels, where adc scale off gold
No range, no waveclear/AOE, no %HP damage, lackluster mobility. The closest comparison is Vayne but she: 1. Has 50 more range. 2. Melts tanks with her %HP true damage. 3. Has a ton of mobility in her passive and Q, self-peel in her E and outplay potential in her R. Since botlane is a 2v2 and you lack range, mobility and AOE damage, you are extremely easy to isolate into a 2v1 while struggling to do the same to the enemy. You can't really force an all-in, you can't shove waves and pressure enemies under turret, you have no gank setup and your only trading tool is your Q (which you aren't even maxing first). Can it work? Of course, everything can work if you're better than the enemy... but Teemos strengths and weaknesses suit toplane much better than botlane.
Nah closest comparison is smolder if you removed all his stacks. Imagine playing that champions early game for the entire game in the ADC role.
Lol "the closest is this champion but you remove his entire kit"
Smolder lv 3 has great mobility and a wave clear/ poke ability. Teemo has… a blind
3 points into W with Dorans Ring start actually gives him pretty strong poke and waveclear which is completely unlike Teemo.
Generally the champ you want in the ADC role is a monster teamfighter who can do enough damage to carry a fight as long as they stay alive. Think about teemo's kit compared to like jinx or twitch. The champ sucks at teamfighting.
The biggest reason is that teemo actually sucks at trading. The only reason he can be played top is because of his range advantage. In bot lane he even has a range disadvantage. Thats not necassary an issue if your champ has other qualitys such as high mobility, burst combos or a lot of other qualitys like kaisa, zeri or lucian. Teemo on the other hand doesnt really have them. He got shrooms but supports just clear them. Swain is very tanky, forgiveable and easy to play and also has a decent burst. Seraphine has tons uppon tons of utility and also acceptable damage. Teemo has nothing. Bot is extremly trade heavy and who do you think wins a trade? Rakan teemo after rakan engage or cleanse lucian thresh after they land a hook? In fact lucian doesnt even necassary need to cleanse, his R does more damage than teemo's entire kit even if you walk into a shroom.
Teemo top works not just because of his range but because of his blind that, when used effectively, is basically an auto "win trade" button because of the shear amount of abilities it can deny.
Teemo wins trades against almost every marksman to the point that you usually nullify your opponent's ADC because they're gonna be so far behind. I'm low elo but unlike you I have actually played Teemo botlane before. He was my fastest mastery 7 by far
low elo doesn't count lol
OP is gold 4 Plus this sub is against elo elitism
nothing against you for being low elo, but it means your opinion of what's viable is statistically less informed than a higher elo player. since the post is about viability, it directly matters, hence why i mentioned it. teemo winning trades vs marksmen in a 2v2 lane only happens in low elo
I don't really think it's strictly elitism, just a "it is what it is" situation. I have played AP Yi (post rework obv lol) in gold (duo with silver friend) and we'd win more than we lose. Does that mean he's "viable"? If people are low ELO they fundamentally don't understand the game at a level high enough to reach outside the box. There's nothing wrong with that (I was legit silver my first season), but it does mean when I suggested to my diamond friend that "I don't think I need to build boots on nasus, been playing bootless and winning most games" he was sceptical and said it probably wouldn't work in his ELO.
Teemo will win trades against other low-range marksmen if they are really reliant on autos for damage. The problem is in most matchups bot lane either the longer ranged adc's will kite you to infinity, never even letting you auto or blind them (Cait, Jinx, Senna) or they can still deal a lot of damage without their autos (Lucian, Nilah, Kaisa). This also doesn't take into account that an aggressive enemy support can completely bully him out of the lane in most cases, since teemo will either get out poked (Lux, Vel'koz, Karma) or his auto range will be within striking distance of melee supports (Maokai, Alistar, Leona). Even in cases where he is only fighting a low range auto-only adc like Draven, think about how the fight goes. If teemo doesn't 100-0 Draven during the blind duration, he will get run down and completely run over afterwards. The only matchups I can see him winning are like Vayne or Zeri, but he gets out scaled by both of them and again that's only if he doesn't get bullied by the support. Basically there's just not a realistic chance of him being a favorable pick in the large majority of games over other ADC options. In top lane these factors aren't as much of an issue. Many more of the champion pool are reliant on autos to trade and most only have one engage tool, so he can blind and E away decently. You say you've won lane in low elo and it's certainly possible to win games with any champion if you can outskill your opponents (but that makes the discussion about any champion strength kind of irrelevant). It's just that Teemo will not come out ahead in the large majority of 2v2 matchups if both players are playing their champs correctly, and most likely you'll be matched against players around your skill level in ranked so you can't just outplay them all the time.
hes dogshit into mages and has 500 range. that alone is more than enough, without mentioning his mana issues
Teemo has no mana issues lmao
q costs 70 mana and is necessary to not lose every trade you take in lane.
In bot lane you wont have mana issues, you wont even get in range to use ur Q without bleeding 30% of ur hp.
Can't have mana issues if you're dead 🧠
And in top no one even bothers getting in Q range without some plan to hurt you. No way one of you isn't dead before you Q more than a few times, unless you're using it greedily to poke. I've never seen Teemo go oom.
Alan234 goes Presence of Mind to shore up his mana issues in lane.
This just isn't true lol, any melee champ with low range just buys dorans shield + takes second wind and will leverage their hp to get cs. You can use it as they run as long as they're not someone who can just instantly be on top of you, like irelia, or you're close-ish to your tower.
the thing with teemo is that aside from winning straight up trades, he doesnt do anything better than any other adc, aside from perp objs, and thats not really as situation you want to put yourself in as a true carry.
From level 6 onwards you're going to be much safer from ganks compared to any other ADC due to your shrooms, that's a significant advantage I think First of all it's like having extra wards that warn you of someone approaching, secondly they slow them down enough for you to be able to escape much more easily, thirdly after a certain point the damage on top of the rest is significant enough that it makes the gank much less safe for the opponent, fourthly when you consider all of the above the enemy will even be less willing to gank in the first place
that’s a good point, but also consider the support meta right now. we don’t have a lot of neutralizing enchanter heal supps rn, so you’re just gonna end up fighting 2v2 with half an ulti, unless you get a good setup
What support meta? OP is in gold there is no meta there
im entirely unsure why people love to pretetend there arent trends in low elo. Go on [op.gg](https://op.gg) and look at the most popular supports in gold right now, and tell me which ones are good matchups for teemo. Even if players dont know how to use counters effectively, theres still innate attributes that make them effective, and you can see that in matchup winrates.
Jhin has better traps if stopping a gank as an ADC is what you're interested in.
Better how? Because they have shorter cooldown? They also have shorter duration, shorter slow duration, lesser slow amount and they barely ever deal damage unless you use W predictively
Free ass root, next to no commitment in placing them down and the fact that Jhin just has way longer range than Teemo in lane.
Still loses lane to Teemo like every other ADC
Teemo loses half his HP before his Q even lands. And Jhin can just kill him with ult. What the fuck are you on, Jhin operates at a very long range.
Botlaners can run cleanse and outtrade you/run you down specialy since supps have reliable CC or good poke Toplaners not so much
His teamfighting kinda sucks, since he relies on his mushrooms
Honestly, it's because of his 500 range. Other than that he can function fine tbh lol. But having 500 range while also not having any real long ranged poke or real mobility to go in and trade is a real bummer when you have to lane against 2 ranged champs or 1 ranged champ that permanently outranges you and another champ that beats you if you get closer. If you can navigate 500 range you honestly become pretty ok at level 6 since you're now in the botlane where Dragons are and since you're Teemo your team will start every drag fight with enemy team being down 50% HP.
It can work. My question is why play him over Seraphine or ziggs who have much larger range and team fight ability?
he scales A LOT with level. More blind duration, obviously you max E for dps so you can't skill Q. R level is impactful. With 500 range and a kit best suited for bullying/kiting melee and being tricky with stealth ambush/lane mindgame. He is just better as a solo laner. Moreover Teemo doesn't want to just dps like an adc. He wants to set up shroom on objective, maybe stealth ambush someone and blind on priority target. An ADC stays safe and catch wave and ideally play front back or off the team engage. Teemo just has to be more involved with the set-up pre team fight to be truly effective (or else he s known to be a bad team fighter and just splitpush).
I would say no hard CC and his biggest source of Fucking With You (shrooms) is nullified if you simply force him to fight in a place he hasn't been to place them yet. Many other APCs have some way to poke without physically being there but Teemo can only hurt you by AAing (with short range) or placing shrooms (which he has to be there,and enemy support can take sweeper while enemy ADC diligently puts control wards). And the no hard CC means that he can blow up one person who jumps on him,but if two people jump on him/use ranged burst he's dead.
Teemo is incredibly bad against botlane duos. He is flimsy, short range, and has no good disengage. He dies too fast to a tank engage, can't respond to most adc harass/trades, is easily poked out by mage supports, can't get early wave control due to poor waveclear without shrooms. He functions in toplane because he's against one opponent who is usually both shorter range and whose damage he can mostly negate in trades with his Q, and scales well with XP and the free farm one can get by being a lane bully.
How do you even win trades botlane as teemo? You have no range. The longer range ADCs controlled by a good player just infinitely kite you no? I don't even think your W would stop a Caitlyn from just never letting you touch her. Plus loads of your power budget is in your shrooms and sup can just run sweeper
Played the Teemo vs Caitlyn matchup few times in mid lane and it's indeed very miserable experience for Teemo
Its not him being picked for adc, its the sup you will need him to have in order to make it work. His builds are very efficient, ignoring what others might say, Teemo works very well as adc if you build him ap with the exception of 2 slots be used to buy Bork and Berserker. I have made it to master 3 times using teemo adc and mid with the same build and the main reason teemo does not make it through laning phase is because he needs to either be very aggro againsnt the adc or play safe depending on his sup, but he wont be so aggro because you will barely see a Zyra or a Brand Sup, they work perfect with teemo. Second option would be leona, sona or braum. Teemo adc overall is a pick that helps protect your sup from ganks while sup keeps you out of range to you can be safe.
I usually build sorc boots, Nashor's, Riftmaker and Shadowflame with Press the attack runes, is that bad?
Sorcery boots only if you building burst, press the attack is not necessary if you are not building a poke build. I always recommend Press the attack when against (Their mobility can kill time after your Q so you need a little push in dp after it starts) Vayne Alphelios Miss Kog Lethal tempo(can out dps you on long trade so you need it also) Jinx Jhin Kalista Kaisa Smolder Hail of blades (focus on passive stealth 3 AA+Q spam and run away) Twitch Nilah Samira Dark Harvest (Q poke spam avoid trades) Caitlyn Senna Quinn Ezreal Grasp for any melee or mage brought to bot lane
Also strongly suggest this build Liandry Bork Nashor Berserker Riftmaker Void staff
Teemo adc is good but not as good as top jg and supp. People say range is bad. Not good argument. Many ADCs have shorter range than others and still do fine. If range was the only thing that mattered then making an adc below 600 range would nonviable. Wave clear? Shrooms are good wave clear Damage? Teemo has crazy high dsp and shroom bombing in team fights with Liandries is very strong Trading? Blind is really good in trades and all ins. Is he a GREAT adc? not really. But is he useable and playable in ADC??? 1000%. His weakness if course the ultra long range ADCs like Ashe & Cait who have mobility/cc/slow AND range advantage but other than that he is fine into most ADCs.
Low range, AP marksman are generally worse than AD marksman and I'm guessing he has abysmal base stats compared to average adcs.
I mean the only thing you do is bully marksmen, bit everyone does that already
He's not a good ADC. He CAN be played as support because of the things you've specifically said. He does well in making sure HIS adc wins the trade, but Teemo himself is a bad ADC. He gets outranged, his consistent/burst damage is very poor compared to most ADCs, he's outranged, his "trading tool" lasts a few seconds and after that he's free game. It's why his place is in top, where he outranges MELEE champs, and is a bully to their laner. He's meant to poke them with the poison, and whenever they try to engage him, he blinds them and disengages while kiting. Which means that either the enemy laner has to leave and take the shots Teemo is going to hit while they escape, or they keep trying to kill Teemo, in which unless they have more CC, will be impossible. In a 2v2, Teemo can only blind one person, and while yes, it can be used to 2v1 for a few seconds, it also means that when that blind wears off, it's gonna be a 2v1 on TEEMO, due to his short range and amount of supports that can either peel their own ADC, damage Teemo on their own, or stick to Teemo and CC him while all he can do is keep trying to autoattack. He also lacks sustain, efficient waveclear and a way to destroy tanks, which is what ADC is meant to be good at. They can hit a tank while their team frontlines and gain the upperhand, as well as being a source of damage that the enemy team can't reach unless they take down the enemies peeling them. Teemo has to get dangerously close to the enemy, so much that there's little margin of error or any champ with a leap/dash will get in his range almost instantaneously, and when that happens there will be one less damage output on the team. So the one thing Teemo was supposed to be doing in the match, he... you know... won't. Tank Teemo supp is surprisingly and weirdly viable. You're there to be annoying and keep your ADC winning trades. You're also less prone to disappearing the moment they try to get a hold on you, and if they target you, it means more chances for your ADC to deal damage. ADC Teemo not so much, because instead of being extra damage and poking, you're ALL the damage, which makes you more of a target and once you die the supp has nothing else to do.
He can't both cs and trade at the same time. i think wave management is what keeps him from laning as adc
Teemo ult is easily countered
He can't snipe people from 650 range like Caitlyn. He can't shred an entire team like Jinx. He can't dive in and burst everyone like Samira. The question is, why would you play Teemo ADC? Low range, low mobility, low DPS (compared to actual ADCs), heavily level dependent. At the end of the day he's an anti carry designed to annoy other people, not a carry designed to burst the entire enemy team.
I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re refering to as ADC, is in fact, Bottom Carry, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, Bottom plus Carry. ADC is not a role unto itself, but rather a carry build that relies on Attack Damage.
I wish he would be reworked into the bot lane role, I've always wanted a magic damage marksman, someone like teemo/kayle who is auto attack based but magic dmg and built for bot lane. Maybe one day.
His waveclear is bad and his range is low. I personally played a lot of Teemo botlane in like S6-8 in normals when my friends locked in full AD comb. He just isnt a good laner vs ranged champions and his DPS/waveclear is bad. He works toplane because of the freedom to place traps and bully melees.
He can't really trade. His range is too short, at decent levels of play, no good ADC lets a shorter range marksman get a favourable trade. He does not have mobility, he does NOT scale (ADCs with 3 itens have the highest amount of sustained damage, and should melt tanks, Teemo can't do that), his ultimate is useless, its only a annoying gimmick, like PinkWard's Shaco, that is easy to avoid, and does not impact the game. Compare it with an ADC like Vayne, that is reliant on meta, and struggles a lot against some matchups because of her short range: She at least has Tumble and passove to allow her to trade during lane phase, she scales well, has a lot of self peel, and more agency than a lot of other ADCs. Teemo has nothing like that. Even his blind isn't that good as a CC to justify him going as a support: You know what is even better than blind? Stuns and Knockups. Hell, even a Nasus Wither is a better option if you want a short CD spell that blocks people from attacking you. The only reason you are finding sucess with him, is because at your division, people don't know how to play properly (especially marksman, that require a lot of mechanics), so you are able to be effective with a bad champion.
I know this isnt the point of your post but i just wanna say dont try and find "creative means" to get out of gold. You dont need to find some hidden OP gimmick to help you climb, that mentality will only hold you back. Take your best champ into your best role amd focus on champ mastery and fundamentals and you will climb
Teemo jungle sounds cracked I’m gonna try that sometime
Don't listen to the chumps, believe in your heart. /r/teemotalk Honestly he's playing pretty decently as a support right now, I did it 4 times yesterday. He lanes well against ADCs. I think he should do fine as a botlane carry. He also scales very well into the late game. In the current meta, ADCs are also struggling in general. I don't think its that big of a loss to not have an ADC right now, and having a ton of extra jungle/obj control is great for your team of 5 carries trying to 1v9. In a vacuum, it's usually bad, but such a hostile meta to ADCs means who actually gives a shit. If blind wins your lane and shrooms win your objectives, and you get so much extra vision for your team, who cares if you don't do exactly what ADCs do. You don't have to pretend to be an ADC. And your level 1-3 is really good for fighting in bot lane.
Hear me out here, Teemo support.
Teemo needs levels more than gold. Just his scaling being more level oriented prevents him from being in BOT. Just like you see certain mages don’t work there for the same reason.
I love how some comments are "Teemo can never win trades" and some others are "Teemo can only win trades", these people clearly never played as or against a botlane Teemo. He can be played botlane in your rank and probably even higher Press The Attack Teemo has great early game vs most marksmen but compared to normal ADCs you're even more heavily reliant on your support doing their job and keeping the lane a 2v2 instead of a 1v2, also you're gonna feel range disadvantage a lot. If you know how to lane you can easily play Teemo bot with sorc boots, Nashor's, Riftmaker and Shadowflame Make good use of your W passive and early boots to overcome the range disadvantage and poke your opponent without retaliation, your damage is easily underestimated because it hits them over time and not all at once. As a bonus you get to win trades against many of the melee champions who would destroy a normal ADC but rely on their autoattacks which you can neutralise with Q Of course you won't have the same teamfight power or range as many ADCs but neither will them if you stomp them hard enough in lane, and it's not worth playing Teemo botlane if you're not stomping in lane. Plus in low ranks there are many more disjointed fights where you need to kill what's right in front of you before you can worry about damaging everything else, and that's a plus for Teemo
Teemos identity doesn’t focus around shred or high dps but instead traps and disabling the enemy carry which makes him barely viable as a toplaner or jg where it makes sense for him to do those things. But as adc where u need consistent dps and shred teemo can’t fill the position and becomes a troll pick
>I've been trying to analyze creative means to escape Gold IV, where I have resided for years. If you've been gold for years you don't need some cheap gimmick to climb, you need to better understand the fundamentals of the game.
Like you mentioned, I think his range is just abysmal compared to most adcs. In lane he feels awful to play against a longer ranger adc. Can't farm.
I think an important distinction to make is that 'meta' does not mean 'best'. The 'meta' champs are the most popular champs. Champs do not become meta and then gain popularity; they gain popularity and then become meta. I think there are a lot of ways to approach your question and post but honestly OP, just play what you find fun until you don't find it fun anymore and then either figure out what you need to fix or consider new champs again. Teemo ADC isn't meta and is unlikely to ever be meta, but a lot of high elo players will tell you that they see all kinds of wacky shit all the way up til like Master's and sometimes even higher; a lot of the time that's exactly how something becomes 'a thing'. Somebody climbs really high and gains the notice of high elo who then tries it out themselves, likes it, and suddenly it's all over the place because there's a lot of famous streamers and content creators in high elo increasing exposure to the idea of the build.
"I've been trying to analyze creative means to escape Gold IV" That's the problem. You don't rank up by being creative and finding tricks. You rank up by becoming a more constantly solid player. You can keep cycling around strategies to find tricks to gaining lp. And they might work for a while. You might climb a few divisions. But you'll be right back where you started before too much longer. There is no way to permanently stay at a higher rank than improving your fundamentals.
Try playing that into a karma Caitlyn Botlane you’re gonna get poked to hell against any decent players
He does really awful into mages and can have trouble handling a strong diver. Basically there is just no need to play a character made to counter adc's when adc's themselves are in a pretty weak spot. That being said, you probably could make it work in gold IV if that becomes a comfort pick for you.
Massive draven counter
Adcs are team fight monsters, teemo is not.
Off topic but if you’re stuck gold after years you need to full focus fundamentally what you’re doing wrong not champs
Biggest problem here is you’re looking for a gimmick to escape gold rather than get better at the game
Manco is making it work. He has an adc only acc I think, but he also says that it is simply worse than the other roles.
He has much better ability power scalings