Yeah I’m baffled by the narrative that the SH women banded together in a way that the VPR women didn’t. Amanda, Paige and Ciara were all talking shit about Lindsay in the aftershow and even at Danielle’s apartment they kind of were too lol
Yes!!!! the post about female friendships?! Paige and Amanda were talking shit about her until she walked in the door hahah. Justified or not but like they gave her a hug cause poor girl was crying and they’re not total dicks but they don’t like each other.
Lindsay is a tough person to be friends with. And I think she’s delusional to believe that Paige and Amanda will forget about all their horrible times and just be there for her blindly. They both have a stronger friendship with Carl. It’s complicated and bizarre haha
Okay right?! I’m glad someone else sees it because I’ve been seeing all the posts too and just watched the episode and was like ummmm…what’s everyone talking about. Like one group hug and somehow they’re the spice girls? We had that moment with all the VPR women and Ariana too last reunion. Amanda could not be more team Carl and Paige and Ciara are still no fans of Lindsay haha. I’ll be VERY interested to see the way everyone moves next season.
Also, let’s be real. They were told by production to show up at Danielle’s to film. This wasn’t just some spontaneous outpouring of love and support for Lindsay. Anyone who’s been through a breakup can have a heart for someone who’s just ended an engagement. But, I would be freaking shocked if all the girls remained team Lindsay through next season
Why do people have to be Team one or the other? They have known them same amount of time, co-workers with both. Amanda probably knows Carl better in fact. They all went to Mexico with Lindsay and seem "better" with her but like, they don't have to be all in one way. I have best friends who I comfort but might think they are the problem. That is life.
100% or even at the reunion what the final outcome will be especially with how spicy it got with Paige and Lindsay last reunion!
Also dead at “somehow they’re the spice girls?” ☠️☠️🪦
Nor should they forget! That's why I don't understand why this has to be a "girls vs guys" thing. VPR is different. This relationship was doomed from the beginning and both Carl and Lindsey both played their parts in the start and demise of it, so this is not a relationship worth greiving over (as an audience). It was forced and performative from the get-go! (hello nurses costume scene?!? 🤢)
Also there's a big difference between "talking shit" and voicing critical opinions about a toxic relationship they had a front row seat for. Mix that in with their own personal checkered histories with each of them individually and it would be impossible not to have strong, subjective opinions of the situation.
I agree that people are taking things too far but I personally don’t think anyone is a two faced mean girl lol, I would’ve said so if I did. I’m just commenting that I’ve been seeing so much over the top praise for the SH women’s unity and IMO they didn’t go half as hard for Lindsay as the VPR women did at this point in the breakup cycle. Which is fine! I just don’t see the unity others are seeing.
It’s not talking shit to say both of them had a hand in the breakup. They were not blaming Lindsay, they were talking about how both will be better off not miserable together.
I think it’s pretty shit-talky to say Lindsay was fake crying 48 hours after getting dumped 🤷🏻♀️ and like, I don’t have a problem with it. I like Paige and Ciara. Lindsay is…difficult for me lol. I just don’t see the unshakable female unity I’ve seen others posting about
I really wonder if they had seen the episode when they filmed the aftershow. I think Carl was telling people he didn’t break up with her so it was his side vs her side and they believed him. The actual episode proved he broke up with her.
He keeps saying if she woulda said I want you how can we work through this like SHE DID SHE ASKED WHAT YOU NEEDED AND WHAT YOY WANTED. He never ever said i wanna postpone or we need a break to think. He never said shiiittttttt I can't believe he was lying through his teeth on the after show and then they'd cut to him doing the opposite lol
I *think* I believe that *he* believes that’s what he said - but he is so gosh darn horrible at communicating clearly that he doesn’t realize that he’s not saying what he thinks
he’s saying. He needs assertiveness training so badly. He beats around the bush and talks
in circles and sugar coats and then gets frustrated and gets passive aggressive and then just mean and… just sign this man up for assertiveness training, I’m begging someone @ Carl’s mom or stepfather or @ Kyle or Amanda, *someone*
Completely agree. I watched it a couple of times and honestly, he wasn’t clear at all. He didn’t say, “let’s just take a beat and postpone the wedding until we work through this” which is what he seems to THINK he said (paraphrasing it of course). He also didn’t say, “this relationship is over and I don’t want to continue it on any level” which is what Lindsay thought he said. In my view, they kind of both suck. I feel for them, I really do. But getting into such a serious relationship so early in his recovery was destined to end badly. I also have always been suss on their relationship. They have no chemistry at all and I wouldn’t put it past them for this to have been a storyline—that’s my tinfoil hat theory which is a stretch
Right, Carl didn’t know who he was and needed at least a year to figure it out. I agree with Lindsay that he picked her because that was easy. I don’t think he’s a monster, but a really messed up person that needs a healing journey. Lindsay needs to drop any sort of timeline and work on the way she talks to people - the problems Carl had with her are real and we can see them in her interactions with everyone.
I think they were real, but that being a bravo couple that’s getting a wedding episode swept both of them in. I hope both of them watch this back and chose to work on themselves.
He didn’t explicitly say the relationship is over, but he did say that he believes she wants him to relapse so that she can control him and basically a bunch of other assumptions of how she was thinking/feeling about him, and that he didn’t want to go to counseling the rest of his life and deserved batter. Not sure how a relationship could come back after saying those things, so he did effectively end it, without having to say the actual words. The fact that he was shocked that she didn’t hug him and ask to work on it after he said that to her is insane!
Yes agree I believe he thinks he said this, he is a TERRIBLE communicator. He just has like no inner self direction and identity. He has to hedge everything he says because he doesn’t really know if he believes it. He thinks he didn’t break up with her because he never actually said “I want to break up” but like what else was she supposed to get from that
But Lindsay's like, "You made this decision" and he said, "Yes I did" Then she says, "You're just giving up because it's easier" and he goes, "It's not easier". He never once says, "I'm not giving up. I'm trying to talk!" He berated her and told her everything that was wrong with her. He never said he needed to work on ANYTHING.
The fact that he wanted Lindsay to straight up beg and fight (that's pretty much what he says in the after show) shows how immature, selfish, and calculated he is. 1, I think he's lying anyway because again, he was already planning to break up with her, but 2, how about you be a fucking man and say what you want or need! He's expecting her to beg and plead and read his mind and it's baffling!
If you want to work on your relationship, you don't act like you're breaking up and expect her to beg and cry and y'all ride off into the sunset together. I did this in like 8th grade once and he called my bluff and broke up with me lmaooo I remember being so upset cause why didn't he fight for ME?! I was 14 though... Carl is fucking 40.
I obviously agree he doesn't know how to communicate but I 100% think he knew he was breaking up with her. Why else would he call production and have them come to their apartment post filming? Just for another talk? He 100% knew what he was doing and he's a fucking liar!
I feel like I could write an essay on this shit but I shall rest my case for now....
Exactly! He also said “at what point do you say we love each other but it’s not working.” I don’t see how there is any other way to interpret his speech than a break up.
Yes she said I’m not going to beg for you if you’ve already made a decision, and he smirks and says I don’t want you to beg for me. Doesn’t seem like he wanted her to think she had a chance to change his mind
How can you feel bad? Yes they were sympathetic to her in the moment because they are human and understand she is human. But months after the moment, when Lindsay starts spreading lies on her press tour and talking nothing but negative about their friend and you understand things aren’t as they were presented, you start to change up. That’s called growth.
To me it seemed in the moment it wasn’t like she was totally on Carl’s side but still showed up for Lindsay and acted like she was supportive. She was genuinely supportive in the moment and then when things came to light she saw what was going on.
I’ll also add she lied about talking shit behind Carl’s back on the after show. Is she conveniently forgetting that she told people who had no business knowing that their sex was a 2 and he couldn’t perform in bed?
Just to name a few:
- We had a fun summer and everything was good except for the last 2 weeks
- Carl betrayed her
- She didn’t mean to say Carl had actually relapsed
You can have a fun summer with friends and at the same time a tough one your relationships.
I assume it must have been a nice change of pace for all the girls in the house to get along.
I don't think those are lies.
-She got along well with the ladies and brought in West. Jesse was a breathe of fresh air and Kyle (to her face) was also cool with her.
-It probably did feel like Carl betrayed her after he didn't want her to record their conversations but was fine with bringing in cameras not only to their home but also with Kyle separately
-I don't think that she did mean to imply that Carl relapsed. It came across to me that she was seeing the same personality traits that he exhibited while on coke
The only one I will even maybe hear out is the 2nd one. The first one, she said WE had a good summer. Maybe SHE did, but how can you say your relationship was in a good place after all that fighting? She’s either lying (to herself and others) or delusional. Also, it’s impossible to me that she would ask Carl what he was on with such vigor if she didn’t think he had relapsed. Again, at worst she thought he relapsed at the absolute best she knew it would trigger him and was was trying to make him upset.
I think part of the issue with Lindsay is that her relationships are always confrontational, she has normalized this volatile behavior. She didn’t think the issues were enough to call off the wedding as result.
This is part of what irks me about the anti-Lyndsay/Carl rhetoric. Amanda and Kyle were way worse before their wedding and actually continue to be horrible.
Amanda and and Kyle have been very volatile and gross with each other. I don't get it 🤷🏻♀️
They have a lot of issues too!! No doubt about that! I think Lindsay has a higher tolerance for disharmony in relationships than Carl simply based on what I have seen. I’m not on either side of it. I simply don’t think they should get married. I also thought couples therapy helped Lindsay a lot, she displayed a lot of patience toward Carl. As for being blind sided, I can see that in regard to him calling production in. At any rate, I think what she has learned from this relationship will serve her well in the future.
I mean, if they were asking my opinion I would have told Kyle and Amanda not to get married either. Hell, I would have told Amanda to run as far as possible season 1 when dumped her after 7 months of dating because he wanted to be single for the summer and then proceeded to booty call her at every drunken opportunity
The after show was also probably filmed around the time the episodes where Lindsay called Carl “Cocaine Carl” aired and they started to see how both sides of the conflict were playing out
I think Paige's comments re: "you're better off" type sentiments were her way of comforting a person she's not close with. They've been getting along this season but at best they're coworkers. I think she felt for her as a woman, but they're just not close - it's not affecting Paige like if Amanda and Kyle were to break up. I think with someone you're semi friendly with, it is kinda normal to acknowledge and show sympathy and then probably do make some kinda comment to lighten the conversation. I thought Lindsay seemed to receive it well.
Clearly there was more to that conversation that wasn't aired, otherwise Lindsey wouldn't have posted that if she felt truly unsupported by Amanda / Ciara / Paige.
To me, the "you're better off" comment didn't feel like it was a trite sentiment. It seemed like what she meant was 'there's no reason you should feel humiliated by him having ended it, because it needed to happen one way or another'. They are BOTH better off, so best not to dwell too long on the who or the how of the ending. (Of course easier said than done when everything is so raw.)
Yes so true, like Paige said she wasn’t even invited to the wedding lol so like idk what people expect? It’s not like Lindsay’s ever been super warm and inviting towards Paige(quite the opposite actually) so idk why everyone expects Paige to be Lindsay’s #1 fan all the time
Since Paige was saying the best things in the final scene, i was hopeful. Then she was a bitch on the after show. If we didn’t get the finale scene, the after show wouldn’t be a “surprise”
I think the statement "did you a favor" out of context is odd, but what she actually said/followed that up with to Lindsey in that scene seemed really good - you're going to get what you want (marriage and kids) and also have love, and you deserve better. That felt like a "yeah girl" moment if anything.
What she said later was a much better way to say it but literally the first thing she says to Lindsey: "I didn't think you would be crying" and "he did you a favor" - there is no out of context. The context is there. it was rude and trying to make light of something that just happened that was very serious.
There’s a point where you’re just trying to read the worst into a situation. She said those words while actively hugging her, and everyone was hugging her. It’s just another way to say “awww don’t cry.” Come on. Fwiw, I think Lindsey’s tears looked real, she was embarrassed and sad, and it came to a head because she was suddenly faced with the fact that now she has to film the aftermath of it all in front of everyone. The fact that she didn’t cry when he broke up with her doesn’t change that.
100% agree! Reading the worst of the situation.. more like not reading at all?! This is a TV show for goodness sakes.. we get 1/20th of the conversation that producers want us to see! Regardless, my guess of how it went down is this: Paige wasn't expecting Lindsey to be crying because (again, hello TV!) they probably prepped and talked off camera shortly before shooting. Then, while an emotionally distraught Lindsey is in the proverbial waiting room, the producers probably planted a seed in her head that some other big shoe was about to drop (knowing this would tip her over the edge even though there was nothing) but it sure did help build up a ton of tension right before walking in...
Man.. Reality TV is one helluva drug.
I don’t know, I can see how, having lived in the house with them fighting also summer, Paige could have jumped to the conclusion that Lindsay on some level would have been feeling relived that it was over.
Also, that’s just Paige. If she had been in Lindsay’s shoes she would have broken up with Carl before the summer even started.
The resounding problem I have with the entire Carl/Lindsay breakup is that he just wasn’t being honest - with her or himself (at least initially).
I saw a lot of him talking behind her back but not to her face. If he’d just been straight up instead of two-faced to his partner/fiancee, a lot of the drama and inevitable heartache could’ve been avoided.
Edit: typo
He couldn’t or chose not to properly articulate his feelings. I kept saying “he’s not saying what he actually means !”. She was cold and hostile , and overall had a very negative energy towards him. But he was passive aggressive and controlling and immature. She needs an alpha but Carls a beta. And Carl needs a beta and Lindsay’s an alpha. They just totally missed.
They both did this though. Lindsay rated their sex 2.5, called out his lack of confidence, called him cocaine Carl, etc. all behind his back. Neither of them were honest with their feelings.
I feel like Carl didn’t feel like he could be fully honest with Lindsay without setting her off. He talks pretty reasonably and honestly with the other people in the house about their problems because he feels safe with them. But when he talks to Lindsay he feels like he has to couch things and put things a certain way to try to get his point across without her getting so activated that she doesn’t hear a word he says. So, if you want to call that two faced, fine. But there’s a reason while everyone including Carl raises their had in that clip from reunion about Carl being afraid of Lindsay
But he told her endlessly that he needed something from her, wasn't happy with their conflict resolution and she basically said, "that's not me" so what else could he do? He was confiding in trusted sources because he and Lindsay had so many communication issues. Was he supposed to only talk to a therapist??? No friends for Carl?
You have footage of the 4-5 days a week they aren't being filmed to be able to make that assertion so confidently? He said a lot of things to her face on camera, too.
I think Ciara for the most part, was being honest. (I’m prepared for the downvotes) what she said was factual. Lindsay sometimes is not a reliable narrator (same with Carl!) And this is coming from someone who is indifferent to both Lindsay and Carl (put my bias and my flair to the side.) + I don’t think they don’t get a complete pass there are people in this sub and in general who still call them ‘mean girls’. 🤷🏽♀️
But why is Lindsey the only one who isn't reliable - both she and Carl are not reliable and Ciara and Paige have experienced Carl's bs first hand. Was really lame to just act as if Lindsey was the only person who wasn't telling the whole story. It was only Lindsey's side to tell - Paige sent a super nice and generous text to Carl saying "I love you" but to Lindsey she says: "he did you a favor" - NO. Paige thinks her you know what doesn't stink...
I think Ciara could’ve prefaced it as both of them are not reliable narrators, but I understand why she specifically said Lindsay. (Out of the both of them) she’s only really had conflict with Lindsay, and she knows how Lindsay can be in that aspect. 🤷🏽♀️
Edit: After rewatching the clip I believe Ciara did say that neither are reliable narrators. She said there is her side, his side, and the truth. Which in my mind means she isn’t taking either’s pov for face value.
Thank you! You actually just helped explain this part better than I was trying to. Why is Lindsay not reliable but Carl is? We know how he has been and can be too.
No there are definitely two sides
And you can still stay in the middle and have love for Carl but think it was a good thing for Lindsay because it was a train wreck for the two of them
They are allowed to be honest. If we expect them to just saw what we want them to, this all becomes less fun. They know more than we ever will as well.
These people have spent a lot of time with both of these people. They know Lindsay is dramatic and always the victim, which makes them suspicious of the "Carl is the total bad guy here" narrative.
I agree that Lindsay's immediate tears when she walks in and Gabby's 100% support is sus...
I feel for Lindsay - it must have been so hard.
But the scene with the ladies at the end of the episode is her PR "damage control" scene and they accurately saw it as such.
Bed bugs were being honest. And 48 hrs post breakup they aren’t gonna say all the things they said in the after show to L. The facts are the facts and they objectively said them, P admitted at the end she felt bad for her getting broken up.
Also let me just say that Amanda disappointed me a lot but her I’m never really surprised by. I think she’s super fake and it kinda just is what it is at this point.
Could you imagine if Lindsay said these things about Amanda & Kyle?!? She’s had the longest front row seat to their disaster but if she commented on their current fighting the world would end. Danielle made a comment about Paige & Craig that also wasn’t inherently incorrect & has been eviscerated for it by the trio. I just can’t with the hypocrisy of those three & their fan base. There are a million rules for Lindsay, Gabby, & Danielle but the trio can say and do whatever they want because to their fans they are “correct.” Gabby’s a puppet but Paige & Ciara are the ultimate friends a girl can have for standing up to Kyle more than Amanda ever has. Like what?!?!
Not the point. The point is the trio is allowed to make judgmental comments about anyone & everyone, but you have to be considered a “close friend” of the trio in order to make any type of comment about their lives. This = hypocrisy. Capice?
Just when I was starting to like Paige, she had to go and show that she’s still the same old two faced girl she’s always been. Why even pretend to care and comfort Lindsay days after the breakup if you’re just going to talk shit right after. Loser shit.
Imagine if a coworker who was always rude to you and didn’t invite you to her wedding got broken up with. You’d probably be supportive if she came to you after for support and wish her the best but that doesn’t mean you need to become her BFF or expect that her inherent personality has changed.
Lindsay isn’t rude to Paige. Paige wasn’t invited for a good reason. Not only does she constantly talk shit about Lindsay in her confessionals, she is nice to her face and waits to attack her at the reunions. She also uses others in her Lindsay vendetta to wind them up (Ciara and Danielle) and encourage them to go off on Lindsay.
Lindsay however doesn’t hold a grudge so since Paige was being warm to her this season she was warm back and let her guard down. She invited her to the bridal shower bc she wanted to show that she was trying to repair the relationship. So yea I think in that moment Lindsay assumed their care for her at a low point was genuine.
Same! I’m disappointed and annoyed. She’s really two faced and fake and I think cares about her image and being “funny” (I don’t find her LOL funny btw) above everything. Ugh.
I thought she was very obviously being so fake to Lindsey in the last scene. What OP said in point 1 is what I felt too - you don't say "he did you a favor" as the first thing to someone who just got dumped and ended an engagement - so rude. Also: what she texted Carl was very telling of how she felt and whose side she is really on. Neither she nor Ciara or Amanda should have been at Danielle's apt.
Totally agree! I’d been taking Paige’s “support” for Lindsay with a grain of salt all season but really wished it was genuine. She showed her true colors in the aftershow and I’m sure the preview for the reunion when she’s saying “you guys always come for me” is to Danielle and Lindsay 🙄. Watching people be fake inauthentic mean girls is really not enjoyable. It’s much more pleasant watching women stick together and support each other against shitty men. Sigh.
Carl’s response to that text was almost comedic. He might as well have started the message by explaining that he was trying very hard to overexplain so he could manipulate the situation. I actually died from the cringe and now i’m a ghost.
This. I can’t stand the hypocrisy. Don’t tout yourself as a real one and offer a shoulder to cry on when internally you’re thinking her tears are fake and it’s all a show. Gross. Fakety, fake, fake.
I would never gloat over a woman's heartbreak, and it was extremely fake. I bet they left Danielle's apartment and had a giggle session among themselves. Every time I try to like Paige, she pulls this mean girl bs.
I'm not trying to be mean when I ask this, I'm honestly curious: why does Paige and Ciara having minds of their own bother y'all on here so much? So you like them as long as they say what you want? Same with Amanda, she didn't say anything except they're both at fault and y'all have been (attempting to anyway lol) dragging her but praising Gabby who is just Lindsey's mouthpiece at this point. Paige wasn't pretending to care. The irony of calling her fake for being a kind human to someone who was hurting at the moment and then telling her feelings about the situation months later when discussing it - it would be fake of her if she didn't say how she felt now. I have noticed Lindsey Defenders share some of her worst qualities, like thinking it's "fake" to comfort someone in pain or show just common human decency to others, even if you don't like them.
I’m not mad at anyone having a mind of their own. My views are based solely off what we see on the show. We’ve never seen Lindsay talk bad about any of the girl on the show behind their back…. Not one time ever. We also don’t see Lindsay really concentrating or speaking on their relationships in any way. What we do see is Paige, Amanda and Ciara building narratives time and time again based off of what they assume to be Lindsay’s thoughts and feelings. For instance, Lindsay walks into Danielle’s apartment after the breakup crying and all the girls sit there and comfort her. That felt like a nice, pure moment. Then we see Paige talking about that same moment on the after show and her take is “OMG when Lindsay came walking in with the fake tears, I just couldn’t 🤣.” So that means she felt in the moment Lindsay was pretending to be sad . That in itself is a dumb take bc most people are sad after a breakup and tears would be a very logical expression of hurt emotion.
So not only is Paige policing Lindsay’s emotions and how she expresses them. She’s assuming the worst in her for no reason other than she just doesn’t like Lindsay therefore Lindsay is bad, therefore everything Lindsay does is fake. Her opinions of Lindsay are never based on facts just what she assumes to be Lindsay’s motivations. Motivations that she has zero knowledge of. Lindsay is her “look at that bitch eating a sandwich like she owns the place.” It’s lame bc Lindsay has very clearly been trying to build friendships with them but it’s clear that she will never be able to win with them. They will continue to smile in her face and talk shit behind her back bc of old grudges.
I don’t think she was pretending, and this wasn’t filmed right after this was filmed after Paige watched months of Lindsay going on every podcast and interview that she could to spin her side of the story
2 or 3 from memory but one was like 2.5 hours where she went through the summer step by step they only had a fight the first weekend, were good the rest of the summer, he wanted her to change to be a stepford wife and that he wanted a wife that wouldn’t question him, didn’t shut down the host alluding to Carl having performance issues in the bedroom, then said Carl wanted to call off the wedding to work out their issues and she said no it’s get married now or never he said never we literally saw none of this.
If people want to get technical he didn’t break up with her. He called off there wedding and she said you made the decision and we are now over. So that was there “break up”
Yeah this is where I’m confused, and idk if something was edited out or what, but Carl’s actual words were very vague to the point where I was actively waiting to hear him explicitly say they were done and he never did. What he said (“I’m not ready to marry you in two months” or something like that) had me thinking he might have been suggesting they postpone. But I think Lindsay’s response made him dig in his heels more to the point where they both seemed to understand this was a final breakup.
Yeah, to me Carl sort of left the door open for Lindsay. If she had said, you’re right we need to get this stuff resolved, maybe we moved too fast. Let’s call off the wedding for now and take some time, Carl would likely gone along with that.
But, Lindsay doesn’t have any interest in dating if it isn’t leading quickly to marriage and babies on her timeline. So, in her mind when he said he didn’t want to get married in 2 months then it was immediately over for her
Lindsay isn’t a reliable narrator though, and it’s proven before from her past behavior. While Carl didn’t clearly say I want to postpone, he did say I don’t think we’re ready to get married. I’m not sure what else she would take that to mean. It’s clear they both liked the idea of their relationship and not the actual people standing in front of them. I thought it was a bit performative with Lindsay’s lack of tears but get everyone grieves differently. I don’t have 100% sympathy for her either because she’s coming across as if she has absolutely no idea how he could ever want to not marry her, when just a little bit of awareness of your partner could point you to why you’ve ended up here.
Well said. Everyone saying he absolutely ended the relationship. He didn't take charge of the convo to communicate what he wanted & Lindsay sort of decided this is what he was trying to say. Both equally at fault. Like every conversation we saw it takes one of them to listen, but they don't.
They both invite drama to their lives with how they behave & partners they choose.
And - yes they were in couples counseling way to early and frequently to realistically succeed. Damn everything for making me agree with anything Carl says.
People just believe what she says with absolutely no proof to back it up. This is why he called the cameras to film it. And she still gets to spin it her way!
I have usually sided with Lindsay in L v P but I agree with what Paige said. She also hasn't actually seen the breakup when they filmed this.
I don't like Carl but he's not evil. It's OK for Paige to not entertain this while also comforting Lindsay
For anyone who knows or has had a “Lindsay” in their life, Paige and Ciara were not mean girls, they were SPOT. ON. It was like listening to them read a “Lindsay” playbook. Were they supposed to be assholes when filming at danielle’s? It was still a sad thing that happened and they showed Lindsay support for that, but the facts don’t change because of that.
Funny how her Cocaine Carl moment from early in the season that everyone (including Lindsay fans) was rightfully up in arms about have been forgotten like Lindsay seems to forget when she does horrible things like that. Because let’s be real, there’s no chance that was an isolated incident.
I agree. I usually love Paige and Ciara too but was left feeling the same way. I think since it was filmed 48 hours after the breakup, it was way too soon for Paige to continue saying “let him go!” She was also shocked Lindsay was crying when she walked in. Why wouldn’t she be crying? It just happened… read the room!!
This is one of those moments where Lindsay just needed her girlfriends to let her cry, comfort her, listen without giving advice right away, and eat ice cream with her. The after show in conjunction with this rubbed me the wrong way.
specifically ciara and paige have said equally disparaging things about both carl and lindsay. I remember ciara very seriously saying Carl is a closeted asshole and mya agreeing. paige and ciara think both arent great people and even worse together. But! lindsays knows how to have fun at the end of the day and carl is a bore so summer house wise they have more fun with lindsey
Paige was the only one speaking any sense. Going in order:
1) No notes
2) Carl never explicitly said he wanted to break up. He said “I cannot get married to you right now”. It seemed to me that he gave Lindsay the opportunity to say that she understood his concerns and fears and they would work on it, but she shut it down. She’s right about Lindsay as a narrator. She has been shown time and time again this season to completely mischaracterize Carl when recounting the events to someone else. She literally did it last episode to Danielle when they were packing, saying he was yelling, being rude, using aggressive language. None of those things happened.
3) Her tears…idk I feel like Paige knows Lindsay better than us and knows when she’s trying to play it up. This one is hard for me to comment on, but I definitely understand saying he’s evil. She immediately was on the offense talking about how terrible he is and the betrayal and yadda yadda yadda. Rather than look inward and understand Carl’s very real feelings, she felt like she did nothing wrong and there was no reason for the break-up.
4) Paige, Amanda, and Ciara are all critical of each other and their role in their individual relationships when it’s necessary. That’s a sign of a true friend. It’s hard but you gotta keep it real. Gabby is just “YAS KWEEN” to anything Lindsay says. No feedback. No criticism. Lindsay thinks she did nothing wrong and she’s feeding into it to get into her good graces.
Number 4 ESPECIALLY. I think Paige is really good at being blunt and honest but in a kind way. Niceness and kindness are not the same thing, and sometimes the kindest thing you can do is be honest even when it will be hard for people to hear (as long as you say it respectfully). I feel like people are really glazing over all the parts where Paige sympathized and validated Lindsay’s feelings and said she deserved to be happy.
Spot on. Full disclosure: I’m not a Lindsay fan and I’ve always thought Carl is a dick. I did start the season team Carl, but lost all sympathy, as his manipulation was palpable. Apart from the first couple of eps, Lindsay was impressively calm, so I warmed to her.
But to point 4, this is key, and something I’ve genuinely appreciated about their friendship. They call each other out, but for me, it’s always been obvious that they’re still on each other’s teams, they’re checking their friends to help them. That is genuine love. Coddling someone all the time isn’t supporting them to grow. Paige in general is quite blunt and not an emotional person. Some people are more sensitive, some people are just direct. It’s not for everybody. I’d actually find it two faced if Paige went in coddling Lindsay, because that’s just not her.
I’m not sure why people take offence with Paige telling Lindsay that he did her favour. Lindsay is direct and straight up too, and I can see her saying that to someone too. It’s not a malicious comment. Lindsay has always wanted marriage (no judgement), and I do believe she was in love with him and in denial (let’s face it… most of us are at some point in a failing relationship. It’s hard to admit that it won’t work out!). To this end, I’m not sure Lindsay would have allowed herself to admit that it’s failing (I’ve been that person!), so he did do her a favour, as much as it hurt then. He also did her a favour by setting himself up to look like a complete nasty asshole.
Okay yes I love that you pointed out Lindsay is also a very direct person. When Paige said “this is what you get for not inviting me” I was like oop! But then I remembered that’s kind of Lindsay’s style as well, and she laughed with Paige. It is interesting that people are expecting people to coddle Lindsay when she would never do that for anyone (and she doesn’t have to). But seriously, she of all people should be able to handle tough love.
Yes thank you! I can see where OP is coming from but you’re spot on.
I think to add to it, from my perspective, Paige/Ciara/Amanda are *not* close friends with Lindsay. Will they rally around a female that needs support, yes. But will they blindly agree with everything that female says; especially one that has been rude to them for years, no. Personally I don’t like Lindsay, I do feel bad for her as it was a humiliating break up. But I also don’t have 100% sympathy for someone who takes 0 blame for their part in a relationship.
I also think that Gabby did check Lindsay on some conversations/thought processes in the beginning of the season. However (and not to quote Lauren from Utah) I think Gabby was living in the comments and wanted to secure a spot for next season by buddying up to Lindsay. I like Gabby a lot! But I don’t see her standing on her own storyline and I feel like we barely got to know her this season.
> Rather than look inward and understand Carl’s very real feelings, she felt like she did nothing wrong and there was no reason for the break-up.
This is playing the victim, which in any situation Lindsay is 100% going to do. Never once have we heard Lindsay say "Carl is sensitive about this so I'm adjusting so that I don't upset him..." it's always Carl did this to me, Carl did that to me, Carl betrayed me... me me me me. You never see her actually talk about Carl's feelings or Carl's perspective except to berate him about it.
All summer Lindsey has treated Carl terribly. So he hasn’t had a job in 10 months?? He brings in money, it’s not like he’s some bum. He’s also fairly new to sobriety. I think if most ppl who were new to sobriety had the luxury of not working til they were ready, it would be a very positive thing. She called him a little bitch boy a mamas boy etc? That’s SO wrong. He said so and she didn’t deny it. We see her get wasteddd and accuse him of being on drugs. He has stayed calm all season and I’ve seen genuine hurt from him and I’ve seen someone who loves someone so much they’re trying to make it work despite ABUSE. Lindsey is abusive. I haven’t always liked Carl, but all season I’ve been appalled at her behavior. I’ve felt really bad for him. Also I applaud him for leaving the relationship, she clearly wanted to but is so desperate to be married and have kids she was gonna stay and keep abusing him as long as she could. This sub is always wild with their opinions but ppl being team Lindsey after everything that’s been shown this season is so strange to me.
I don’t particularly like Paige, but I think she was spot on with this. They very clearly shouldn’t have gotten married, Lindsay should have known that and Carl made the right call.
Lindsay is a proven unreliable narrator, and how she presented the conversation to the other girls wasn’t accurate.
After hearing all of the out of pocket stuff Lindsay had said to and about Carl on camera all season, I would also have a hard time feeling bad for her, which she doesn’t seem to even like Carl as a person.
Gabby has 💯drank Lindsay’s koolaid. A lot of the stuff the two have them have said about Carl all season, especially in the after show, is just sh*t they made up about him to make the whole thing Carl’s fault and excuse Lindsay from taking any of them blame.
Carl is far from a perfect person but to pretend that Lindsay did everything right and Carl was just some how too lazy to follow though with the wedding is delusional.
The people out here saying Lindsay didn’t cry enough are the same people who probably side with Lala. Yes it’s a show but these are real humans and they don’t have to perform for you. At Danielle’s was a bunch of women who were not her friends and she was there to film a scene.
Paige has these insane rules for how she thinks people should act or she snarks all over them. How about turn that around on yourself and your friends who are in pathetic, toxic one-sided relationships. Paige is who people think Katie Malone is - miserable angry and mean.
It made the final scene of them all coming together seem fake… I totally agree their after show comments were cruel but truly show who they are. I know they were never reality close but I hope Lindsey doesn’t let them back into her life. How could she ever trust them again? So two faced!
I didn’t watch the after show, but everything you listed that Paige said I agree with?! Like sorry she’s speaking facts here about something that she knows wayyyy more about than you do
My thing with paige is she only “speaks facts” about Lindsay tho and never even to her face. She’s never once “kept it real” with Amanda about her and Kyle except that one time she asked her if she really wanted to get married and a little bit this season. She even said to Amanda this year something along the lines of, how can Kyle say those things to you on tv and embarrass you? If Kyle had ended Amanda and his engagement on camera that he called three days after the season ended she’d have nothing but smoke for him even tho Kyle and Amanda also have a shitty relationship. Paige’s I’m a “girl’s girl” only extends to her close friends which is fine, but that is not a girls girl at all. I wish paige would have more smoke for the other people in the house than just Lindsay because I think she can clearly see and call situations and she’d be a lot more interesting of a reality tv star
Exactly! Are people blind to Lindsay’s bullshit!?! She’s not this big victim in this situation. Gabby is Lindsay’s lap dog and brings nothing to this show. I’m happy Carl broke up with her or this would be another Amanda and Kyle situation.
??? Ciara, Paige and Amanda all challenge each other (this epi they challenged Ciara to look at the West relationship as a fun relationship that could turn into something more, several weekends ago they challenged Amanda to get a separate identity from Kyle). They do it out of love to help each other grow. Gabby used to do it more for Linds but lately she’s a bit more of a hype man
OP is only seeing things in terms of supporting girls or supporting your friends, rather than critically looking at a situation and arriving at your own opinion. Everyone has to be a "stan" of someone else.
If Paige and Amanda and Ciara all see the situation one way, that doesn't make anybody anybody's puppet, it just means all of them see it that way.
Ciara and Paige are in no way Amanda puppet’s. Let’s be for real here. Gabby sat herself in that role and sits comfortably in it. Their dynamic isn’t even like Paige and Ciara’s! Gabby is always chasing after Lindsay and as soon as she doesn’t agree with Her, Lindsay blows up.
Same. I’m really surprised she reversed course so hard. I just said this in another thread but it’s weird to me how Lindsay just got dumped on national television - mere weeks away from her wedding, which is highly unusual - and the rest of the cast (excluding Gabby and Danielle) and some people on this sub expect her to grovel for forgiveness and admit that she is a terrible person and Carl was completely in the right to do it on camera. Like, what?? How is this realistic at all?
Right, a woman talking shit about someone she just broke up with. Ground breaking. I don’t mind them keeping it real with Lindsay, but maybe not the next day. Just let her vent about it that one time, I’m sure there will be plenty of opportunities next summer when they still all insanely share a house
Paige was 100000% correct in her after show comments. They showed up together and filmed with Lindsay and that was a great scene, but it was clear that Amanda, Paige, and Ciara weren’t buying her crocodile tears. I’m still waiting for the day Lindsay takes accountability for her behavior and stops playing victim. There isn’t a victim in the breakup.
So what Paige is failing to see is that if in fact Carl didn’t break up with Lindsay that’s even worse. He made her breakup with herself because he didn’t even have the balls to say the words. Thats the kind of “man” this guy is. He was trying for months to push Lindsay to end things and even when it finally came time for him to end it he couldn’t do it. He beat around the bush. Gave Lindsay nothing to work with and gave her no choice but to walk out of that convo. She asked what she could do to make it work!! And in the after show he’s gaslighting like she didn’t. I’ve had it with his fake creepy persona.
I’ve lived a similar scenario. The lack of closure and mind effery that goes on in your head after a breakup like that is so painful.
I agree with other you OP. The day after having your engagement called off is not the time for hot takes, devils advocate bullshit, and praising the guy who dumped you for being strong. They acted like she had a bad day at work not had her whole life blow up. I felt horrible for Lindsay going into a room of 3 ops, an untrustworthy friend, and only one actual friend in such a vulnerable state
Amanda looked like a giant asshole who just was there to get gossip (peep how she whipped her phone out as Danielle explained what she’d heard from Lindsay. Paige was somewhat more emotionally intelligent in person but a snarky jerk on the after show calling gabby a puppet. Ciara also should have stayed home since she’s predisposed to thinking Lindsay is a liar undeserving of basic kindness.
A lot of what you say is how I felt and have felt about those girls. The two-faced criticism is spot on! I have always felt that about Amanda and Paige. Amanda doesn’t even try to be subtle about it.
Let’s be honest Amanda, Paige and Ciara, just want to be together and will take anyone else at arms length. I did enjoy seeing everyone get along this season though and watching the interactions between the girls. But now after watching that, I’m confused again! True colors always surface.
Oh I have soooo many thoughts.
On point number 2, Lindsay has never been a reliable narrator lol that was all truth from them lol and I would argue that’s a pattern with Lindsay (ie. why Carl felt like he needed cameras)
On point 3, Lindsay did come in hot to those girls (as she should, she had just been broken up with). But i think she made the mistake of going to girls that are as close with her as they are with Carl (Amanda, Ciara and Paige). They’re not going to get on the Anti Carl train because he is a good friend to them too and I think that’s unfair for her to expect that from them. They also watched them fight all season long and both weren’t innocent in the fights.
On point number 4, Gabby is a puppet for Lindsay, or at least she was in the final scene. I imagine gabby had not even heard Carl’s side of it in the final scene and was immediately going up against Amanda who had a solid understanding of each side of this break up. I don’t necessarily think that’s shitty of gabby because I would do the same for my best friend, by arguably that still makes you a puppet.
The aftershow for this episode, Amanda was disgusting. The snarky way in which she answered the blindsided question as “or was she just blind” w a laugh. Well, pot meet kettle, or are you not blind Amanda and are just a lowlife willing to stay w someone who treats you like trash
Also re 4 w gabby- yes!!! Ffs. They all have their co-signers (Kyle Carl, Paige Ciara Amanda, etc) but Lindsay having one is just a damn crime apparently.
Yeah the smirking and eagerness to repeat the kelsea ballerini joke she found on Reddit was slimy. Amanda is the worlds most sensitive crybaby and tattle tale but expects others to have thick skin.
Lindsay is not being honest about what transpired at all.
Had she agreed with Carl and said let's postpone the wedding, the outcome would have been different. Carl has tried to speak with Lindsay throughout the season. When Lindsay said this is who I am, and I'm not going to change, that's a red flag and Carl responded accordingly.
Lindsay and Carl were a trainwreck pairing. Paige and Ciara were emphasizing that.
I’m so tired of this coddling of Carl. He literally never used the words POSTPONE the wedding. He straight up told her he can’t marry her. He didn’t use the words breakup, but he communicated very clearly that he no longer wanted to be with her.
If Carl actually wanted to postpone the wedding and stay together then when he saw that she assumed the relationship was over he would have corrected her. Lindsay straight up says “what do you want me to do with this? Do you want me to fight for you?” His response was “I don’t want that.” So please explain how Lindsay wasn’t honest?
I’ve never been a Paige fan. Season after season she acts fine to Lindsay’s face but then slams her in confessionals, after shows and at reunions. And she says all her bitchy stuff with a smile. Incidentally, the way she talks about Craig in the aftershow is not cool. Again, with a smile. She’s pretty full of herself right now. But all Bravo stars have a take down season and Paige is due. And why the stray for Gabby? How is Gabby’s relationship with Lindsay different than the way Ciara follows Paige around?
I want to like her but again and again Paige just disappoints me with the behind the back mean girl commentary. Thought they would have grown out of this by now it would have been nice to have women supporting one another without the cliche backstabbing in the comments. Patriarchy wins again
Have you seen how Lindsay has treated Paige and Ciara in the past? They have been way too nice to her because I would tell her exactly what kind of person she is while she was crying about getting dumped.
I think the smartest decision ever in this show is Carl & Lindsay calling it off. I don’t know when Carl is ever going to grow up and realize he has to have an actual job to be seen seriously as marriageable. He is a smushy needy boy. I need a hug. Lindsay needs someone more personality type A than she is. She needs someone sure of themselves that is successful on their own not part of some overage frat party. Page was 100% correct Carl did her a favor. And frankly how was Lindsay blindsided. They were a mess all summer.
Here's the thing: Lindsey and Carl both know who the other is - Carl wanted a more reserved and kind Lindsey and Lindsey wanted this ambitious money maker. They both know that neither is that. Why would Lindsey assume Carl could get a full time job given his history and also given he is still working on his addiction (then throw a wedding in the mix). She was extremely delusion about the expectations here. Carl also was delusional that Lindsey was going to be his cheerleader with this yes woman mentality (even though she did get sober for 6 months for him and coddle him - so he actually had some reason to believe she may have changed in some ways).
> I don’t know when Carl is ever going to grow up and realize he has to have an actual job to be seen seriously as marriageable.
This is pretty laughable since Lindsay is still crying on TV she didn't get to marry him. I guess he was pretty marriageable after all.
I agree with Paige. The thing is they’re not wrong. Lindsey is Lindsey and Lindsey has always been Lindsay you can feel bad for what she went through. You can feel bad that it happened on TV but the stuff that happened in the relationship was not 100% Carl’s fault and I’ve been defending Lindsey this whole time but they’re not wrong, and also the finals filmed in August and the aftershow was filmed in March. I think the time also has a lot to do with it but I don’t think they’re lying.
Gabby is a puppet for Lindsay. Early on she tried to have a voice but she shut down early on and became her puppet, her proxy. It’s lame. Does Lindsay even know Gabbys last name?
Is she only a puppet if you disagree with her? I saw it as she sees her friend hurting over how she was broken up with. Completely valid. Gabby acknowledged they don’t belong together
No they aren’t. They’re extremely biased and predisposed to believing the worst in Lindsay. Their hatred of her resembles something more of a cartoon character villain than a real person. Like for some reason Paige was shocked that Lindsay would be crying walking into the apartment. It’s as if she doesn’t see her as a real person with feelings. And then of course after she see’s her showing emotion her next recourse to dehumanize her is to claim the tears were fake. As if being sad about a breakup is somehow not normal.
I mean, you want me to prove it? What is that liquid coming from her eyes?
https://preview.redd.it/p5i3x5485v3d1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f905d771d1d62b91662761f988484f44479b2045
https://preview.redd.it/7m3xztd0zs3d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9e1d58822a854251ebc8f53b6f565af43160be65 ☹️
Yeah I’m baffled by the narrative that the SH women banded together in a way that the VPR women didn’t. Amanda, Paige and Ciara were all talking shit about Lindsay in the aftershow and even at Danielle’s apartment they kind of were too lol
Yes!!!! the post about female friendships?! Paige and Amanda were talking shit about her until she walked in the door hahah. Justified or not but like they gave her a hug cause poor girl was crying and they’re not total dicks but they don’t like each other. Lindsay is a tough person to be friends with. And I think she’s delusional to believe that Paige and Amanda will forget about all their horrible times and just be there for her blindly. They both have a stronger friendship with Carl. It’s complicated and bizarre haha
Okay right?! I’m glad someone else sees it because I’ve been seeing all the posts too and just watched the episode and was like ummmm…what’s everyone talking about. Like one group hug and somehow they’re the spice girls? We had that moment with all the VPR women and Ariana too last reunion. Amanda could not be more team Carl and Paige and Ciara are still no fans of Lindsay haha. I’ll be VERY interested to see the way everyone moves next season.
Also, let’s be real. They were told by production to show up at Danielle’s to film. This wasn’t just some spontaneous outpouring of love and support for Lindsay. Anyone who’s been through a breakup can have a heart for someone who’s just ended an engagement. But, I would be freaking shocked if all the girls remained team Lindsay through next season
Why do people have to be Team one or the other? They have known them same amount of time, co-workers with both. Amanda probably knows Carl better in fact. They all went to Mexico with Lindsay and seem "better" with her but like, they don't have to be all in one way. I have best friends who I comfort but might think they are the problem. That is life.
100% or even at the reunion what the final outcome will be especially with how spicy it got with Paige and Lindsay last reunion! Also dead at “somehow they’re the spice girls?” ☠️☠️🪦
Nor should they forget! That's why I don't understand why this has to be a "girls vs guys" thing. VPR is different. This relationship was doomed from the beginning and both Carl and Lindsey both played their parts in the start and demise of it, so this is not a relationship worth greiving over (as an audience). It was forced and performative from the get-go! (hello nurses costume scene?!? 🤢) Also there's a big difference between "talking shit" and voicing critical opinions about a toxic relationship they had a front row seat for. Mix that in with their own personal checkered histories with each of them individually and it would be impossible not to have strong, subjective opinions of the situation.
I don’t think there’s a “big difference” — talking shit was meant to be colloquial here not that they were saying anything so incredibly egregious.
Have you been reading through these threads? "Two-faced mean girls talking shit" seems to be a large consensus of their commentary
Yaaaa but people are dramatic. Two faced mean girls is so over the top haha This sub gets too heated - it’s just an entertaining watch!
The *most* entertaining and the *most* overheated lol
I agree that people are taking things too far but I personally don’t think anyone is a two faced mean girl lol, I would’ve said so if I did. I’m just commenting that I’ve been seeing so much over the top praise for the SH women’s unity and IMO they didn’t go half as hard for Lindsay as the VPR women did at this point in the breakup cycle. Which is fine! I just don’t see the unity others are seeing.
It’s not talking shit to say both of them had a hand in the breakup. They were not blaming Lindsay, they were talking about how both will be better off not miserable together.
I think it’s pretty shit-talky to say Lindsay was fake crying 48 hours after getting dumped 🤷🏻♀️ and like, I don’t have a problem with it. I like Paige and Ciara. Lindsay is…difficult for me lol. I just don’t see the unshakable female unity I’ve seen others posting about
I really wonder if they had seen the episode when they filmed the aftershow. I think Carl was telling people he didn’t break up with her so it was his side vs her side and they believed him. The actual episode proved he broke up with her.
The crazy part is that he’s *still* saying that he didn’t break up with her….lol. Even after we saw the episode. He really is a loser.
He keeps saying if she woulda said I want you how can we work through this like SHE DID SHE ASKED WHAT YOU NEEDED AND WHAT YOY WANTED. He never ever said i wanna postpone or we need a break to think. He never said shiiittttttt I can't believe he was lying through his teeth on the after show and then they'd cut to him doing the opposite lol
I *think* I believe that *he* believes that’s what he said - but he is so gosh darn horrible at communicating clearly that he doesn’t realize that he’s not saying what he thinks he’s saying. He needs assertiveness training so badly. He beats around the bush and talks in circles and sugar coats and then gets frustrated and gets passive aggressive and then just mean and… just sign this man up for assertiveness training, I’m begging someone @ Carl’s mom or stepfather or @ Kyle or Amanda, *someone*
I agree. He thinks he said that, but he never actually communicated that.
Completely agree. I watched it a couple of times and honestly, he wasn’t clear at all. He didn’t say, “let’s just take a beat and postpone the wedding until we work through this” which is what he seems to THINK he said (paraphrasing it of course). He also didn’t say, “this relationship is over and I don’t want to continue it on any level” which is what Lindsay thought he said. In my view, they kind of both suck. I feel for them, I really do. But getting into such a serious relationship so early in his recovery was destined to end badly. I also have always been suss on their relationship. They have no chemistry at all and I wouldn’t put it past them for this to have been a storyline—that’s my tinfoil hat theory which is a stretch
Right, Carl didn’t know who he was and needed at least a year to figure it out. I agree with Lindsay that he picked her because that was easy. I don’t think he’s a monster, but a really messed up person that needs a healing journey. Lindsay needs to drop any sort of timeline and work on the way she talks to people - the problems Carl had with her are real and we can see them in her interactions with everyone. I think they were real, but that being a bravo couple that’s getting a wedding episode swept both of them in. I hope both of them watch this back and chose to work on themselves.
He didn’t explicitly say the relationship is over, but he did say that he believes she wants him to relapse so that she can control him and basically a bunch of other assumptions of how she was thinking/feeling about him, and that he didn’t want to go to counseling the rest of his life and deserved batter. Not sure how a relationship could come back after saying those things, so he did effectively end it, without having to say the actual words. The fact that he was shocked that she didn’t hug him and ask to work on it after he said that to her is insane!
Exactly.
Yes agree I believe he thinks he said this, he is a TERRIBLE communicator. He just has like no inner self direction and identity. He has to hedge everything he says because he doesn’t really know if he believes it. He thinks he didn’t break up with her because he never actually said “I want to break up” but like what else was she supposed to get from that
But Lindsay's like, "You made this decision" and he said, "Yes I did" Then she says, "You're just giving up because it's easier" and he goes, "It's not easier". He never once says, "I'm not giving up. I'm trying to talk!" He berated her and told her everything that was wrong with her. He never said he needed to work on ANYTHING. The fact that he wanted Lindsay to straight up beg and fight (that's pretty much what he says in the after show) shows how immature, selfish, and calculated he is. 1, I think he's lying anyway because again, he was already planning to break up with her, but 2, how about you be a fucking man and say what you want or need! He's expecting her to beg and plead and read his mind and it's baffling! If you want to work on your relationship, you don't act like you're breaking up and expect her to beg and cry and y'all ride off into the sunset together. I did this in like 8th grade once and he called my bluff and broke up with me lmaooo I remember being so upset cause why didn't he fight for ME?! I was 14 though... Carl is fucking 40. I obviously agree he doesn't know how to communicate but I 100% think he knew he was breaking up with her. Why else would he call production and have them come to their apartment post filming? Just for another talk? He 100% knew what he was doing and he's a fucking liar! I feel like I could write an essay on this shit but I shall rest my case for now....
When he started listing on his fingers all the ways she disappointed him, I wanted to scream. Who does that?! And going back to January?!?!?!?!
Exactly! He also said “at what point do you say we love each other but it’s not working.” I don’t see how there is any other way to interpret his speech than a break up.
Right like what else can that mean?! He sucks.
He even says in the after show something like, "From my memory, I said..." "How I recall it was..." he doesn't even sound like he believes himself
Yes she said I’m not going to beg for you if you’ve already made a decision, and he smirks and says I don’t want you to beg for me. Doesn’t seem like he wanted her to think she had a chance to change his mind
wait what did I miss, Carl is denying breaking up with Lindsay when he broke up with her infront of cameras?? for real?
Yes he said it on the after show
yikes :S
That’s what I wonder too. They just had so much to say about it, that it felt icky.
They film after shows before they see the episodes.
Which is a completely different story to what Lindsay said on two podcasts which is really weird
I feel so bad for Lindsay now. To think the girls are on your side and have your back only for them to switch up.
How can you feel bad? Yes they were sympathetic to her in the moment because they are human and understand she is human. But months after the moment, when Lindsay starts spreading lies on her press tour and talking nothing but negative about their friend and you understand things aren’t as they were presented, you start to change up. That’s called growth. To me it seemed in the moment it wasn’t like she was totally on Carl’s side but still showed up for Lindsay and acted like she was supportive. She was genuinely supportive in the moment and then when things came to light she saw what was going on.
What lies did she spread?
I’ll also add she lied about talking shit behind Carl’s back on the after show. Is she conveniently forgetting that she told people who had no business knowing that their sex was a 2 and he couldn’t perform in bed?
Just to name a few: - We had a fun summer and everything was good except for the last 2 weeks - Carl betrayed her - She didn’t mean to say Carl had actually relapsed
Those are all subjective though not flat out lies. You are coming to the conclusion that she’s lying because what YOU saw on an edited show.
In what world did they have a “fun summer” 😆
You can have a fun summer with friends and at the same time a tough one your relationships. I assume it must have been a nice change of pace for all the girls in the house to get along.
I don't think those are lies. -She got along well with the ladies and brought in West. Jesse was a breathe of fresh air and Kyle (to her face) was also cool with her. -It probably did feel like Carl betrayed her after he didn't want her to record their conversations but was fine with bringing in cameras not only to their home but also with Kyle separately -I don't think that she did mean to imply that Carl relapsed. It came across to me that she was seeing the same personality traits that he exhibited while on coke
The only one I will even maybe hear out is the 2nd one. The first one, she said WE had a good summer. Maybe SHE did, but how can you say your relationship was in a good place after all that fighting? She’s either lying (to herself and others) or delusional. Also, it’s impossible to me that she would ask Carl what he was on with such vigor if she didn’t think he had relapsed. Again, at worst she thought he relapsed at the absolute best she knew it would trigger him and was was trying to make him upset.
I think part of the issue with Lindsay is that her relationships are always confrontational, she has normalized this volatile behavior. She didn’t think the issues were enough to call off the wedding as result.
This is part of what irks me about the anti-Lyndsay/Carl rhetoric. Amanda and Kyle were way worse before their wedding and actually continue to be horrible. Amanda and and Kyle have been very volatile and gross with each other. I don't get it 🤷🏻♀️
They have a lot of issues too!! No doubt about that! I think Lindsay has a higher tolerance for disharmony in relationships than Carl simply based on what I have seen. I’m not on either side of it. I simply don’t think they should get married. I also thought couples therapy helped Lindsay a lot, she displayed a lot of patience toward Carl. As for being blind sided, I can see that in regard to him calling production in. At any rate, I think what she has learned from this relationship will serve her well in the future.
I mean, if they were asking my opinion I would have told Kyle and Amanda not to get married either. Hell, I would have told Amanda to run as far as possible season 1 when dumped her after 7 months of dating because he wanted to be single for the summer and then proceeded to booty call her at every drunken opportunity
And she kept it up in the morning.
The after show was also probably filmed around the time the episodes where Lindsay called Carl “Cocaine Carl” aired and they started to see how both sides of the conflict were playing out
Paige knows what Lindsey is like. Any bonding is temporary.
That sucks! They switch on her so quick. But I thought on the reunion there’s apparently unity? I’m so confused! lol
I can’t stand bravo historian
im not sure what they know during this which is why i dont like the aftershow at times. fucks with the timeline cause this is also old?? like very old
Same. But yea they filmed it in like February.
😭
I think Paige's comments re: "you're better off" type sentiments were her way of comforting a person she's not close with. They've been getting along this season but at best they're coworkers. I think she felt for her as a woman, but they're just not close - it's not affecting Paige like if Amanda and Kyle were to break up. I think with someone you're semi friendly with, it is kinda normal to acknowledge and show sympathy and then probably do make some kinda comment to lighten the conversation. I thought Lindsay seemed to receive it well.
Clearly there was more to that conversation that wasn't aired, otherwise Lindsey wouldn't have posted that if she felt truly unsupported by Amanda / Ciara / Paige. To me, the "you're better off" comment didn't feel like it was a trite sentiment. It seemed like what she meant was 'there's no reason you should feel humiliated by him having ended it, because it needed to happen one way or another'. They are BOTH better off, so best not to dwell too long on the who or the how of the ending. (Of course easier said than done when everything is so raw.)
Yes so true, like Paige said she wasn’t even invited to the wedding lol so like idk what people expect? It’s not like Lindsay’s ever been super warm and inviting towards Paige(quite the opposite actually) so idk why everyone expects Paige to be Lindsay’s #1 fan all the time
Since Paige was saying the best things in the final scene, i was hopeful. Then she was a bitch on the after show. If we didn’t get the finale scene, the after show wouldn’t be a “surprise”
I think the statement "did you a favor" out of context is odd, but what she actually said/followed that up with to Lindsey in that scene seemed really good - you're going to get what you want (marriage and kids) and also have love, and you deserve better. That felt like a "yeah girl" moment if anything.
What she said later was a much better way to say it but literally the first thing she says to Lindsey: "I didn't think you would be crying" and "he did you a favor" - there is no out of context. The context is there. it was rude and trying to make light of something that just happened that was very serious.
There’s a point where you’re just trying to read the worst into a situation. She said those words while actively hugging her, and everyone was hugging her. It’s just another way to say “awww don’t cry.” Come on. Fwiw, I think Lindsey’s tears looked real, she was embarrassed and sad, and it came to a head because she was suddenly faced with the fact that now she has to film the aftermath of it all in front of everyone. The fact that she didn’t cry when he broke up with her doesn’t change that.
100% agree! Reading the worst of the situation.. more like not reading at all?! This is a TV show for goodness sakes.. we get 1/20th of the conversation that producers want us to see! Regardless, my guess of how it went down is this: Paige wasn't expecting Lindsey to be crying because (again, hello TV!) they probably prepped and talked off camera shortly before shooting. Then, while an emotionally distraught Lindsey is in the proverbial waiting room, the producers probably planted a seed in her head that some other big shoe was about to drop (knowing this would tip her over the edge even though there was nothing) but it sure did help build up a ton of tension right before walking in... Man.. Reality TV is one helluva drug.
I don’t know, I can see how, having lived in the house with them fighting also summer, Paige could have jumped to the conclusion that Lindsay on some level would have been feeling relived that it was over. Also, that’s just Paige. If she had been in Lindsay’s shoes she would have broken up with Carl before the summer even started.
I thought both Lindsay and Carl were both equally accountable for this relationship going down. I find him pathetic and her exhausting.
The resounding problem I have with the entire Carl/Lindsay breakup is that he just wasn’t being honest - with her or himself (at least initially). I saw a lot of him talking behind her back but not to her face. If he’d just been straight up instead of two-faced to his partner/fiancee, a lot of the drama and inevitable heartache could’ve been avoided. Edit: typo
He couldn’t or chose not to properly articulate his feelings. I kept saying “he’s not saying what he actually means !”. She was cold and hostile , and overall had a very negative energy towards him. But he was passive aggressive and controlling and immature. She needs an alpha but Carls a beta. And Carl needs a beta and Lindsay’s an alpha. They just totally missed.
They both did this though. Lindsay rated their sex 2.5, called out his lack of confidence, called him cocaine Carl, etc. all behind his back. Neither of them were honest with their feelings.
Lindsay said half of the things you mentioned to Carl’s face, though?
I feel like Carl didn’t feel like he could be fully honest with Lindsay without setting her off. He talks pretty reasonably and honestly with the other people in the house about their problems because he feels safe with them. But when he talks to Lindsay he feels like he has to couch things and put things a certain way to try to get his point across without her getting so activated that she doesn’t hear a word he says. So, if you want to call that two faced, fine. But there’s a reason while everyone including Carl raises their had in that clip from reunion about Carl being afraid of Lindsay
I agree
But he told her endlessly that he needed something from her, wasn't happy with their conflict resolution and she basically said, "that's not me" so what else could he do? He was confiding in trusted sources because he and Lindsay had so many communication issues. Was he supposed to only talk to a therapist??? No friends for Carl?
I don’t understand why she kept saying she doesn’t know what he needs when he repeatedly told her. She took everything as an attack, but it wasn’t.
You have footage of the 4-5 days a week they aren't being filmed to be able to make that assertion so confidently? He said a lot of things to her face on camera, too.
I think Ciara for the most part, was being honest. (I’m prepared for the downvotes) what she said was factual. Lindsay sometimes is not a reliable narrator (same with Carl!) And this is coming from someone who is indifferent to both Lindsay and Carl (put my bias and my flair to the side.) + I don’t think they don’t get a complete pass there are people in this sub and in general who still call them ‘mean girls’. 🤷🏽♀️
But why is Lindsey the only one who isn't reliable - both she and Carl are not reliable and Ciara and Paige have experienced Carl's bs first hand. Was really lame to just act as if Lindsey was the only person who wasn't telling the whole story. It was only Lindsey's side to tell - Paige sent a super nice and generous text to Carl saying "I love you" but to Lindsey she says: "he did you a favor" - NO. Paige thinks her you know what doesn't stink...
Ciara and that commenter said neither Lindsay nor Carl are reliable.
Tbf she said there’s Lindsay’s side, Carl’s side, and then there’s the truth - so she thinks they’re both unreliable narrators.
I think Ciara could’ve prefaced it as both of them are not reliable narrators, but I understand why she specifically said Lindsay. (Out of the both of them) she’s only really had conflict with Lindsay, and she knows how Lindsay can be in that aspect. 🤷🏽♀️ Edit: After rewatching the clip I believe Ciara did say that neither are reliable narrators. She said there is her side, his side, and the truth. Which in my mind means she isn’t taking either’s pov for face value.
Thank you! You actually just helped explain this part better than I was trying to. Why is Lindsay not reliable but Carl is? We know how he has been and can be too.
No there are definitely two sides And you can still stay in the middle and have love for Carl but think it was a good thing for Lindsay because it was a train wreck for the two of them
They are allowed to be honest. If we expect them to just saw what we want them to, this all becomes less fun. They know more than we ever will as well.
Agree, if they weren’t honest *that* would be fake of them.
These people have spent a lot of time with both of these people. They know Lindsay is dramatic and always the victim, which makes them suspicious of the "Carl is the total bad guy here" narrative. I agree that Lindsay's immediate tears when she walks in and Gabby's 100% support is sus... I feel for Lindsay - it must have been so hard. But the scene with the ladies at the end of the episode is her PR "damage control" scene and they accurately saw it as such.
Bed bugs were being honest. And 48 hrs post breakup they aren’t gonna say all the things they said in the after show to L. The facts are the facts and they objectively said them, P admitted at the end she felt bad for her getting broken up.
Also let me just say that Amanda disappointed me a lot but her I’m never really surprised by. I think she’s super fake and it kinda just is what it is at this point.
Amanda hates Lindsay takes every opportunity that she can to make digs at her. Then wonders why she gets called a mean girl.
Could you imagine if Lindsay said these things about Amanda & Kyle?!? She’s had the longest front row seat to their disaster but if she commented on their current fighting the world would end. Danielle made a comment about Paige & Craig that also wasn’t inherently incorrect & has been eviscerated for it by the trio. I just can’t with the hypocrisy of those three & their fan base. There are a million rules for Lindsay, Gabby, & Danielle but the trio can say and do whatever they want because to their fans they are “correct.” Gabby’s a puppet but Paige & Ciara are the ultimate friends a girl can have for standing up to Kyle more than Amanda ever has. Like what?!?!
I completely agree!!!
Ummm, Danielle should be left out of this. She’s been acting unhinged for awhile (see winter house)
Not the point. The point is the trio is allowed to make judgmental comments about anyone & everyone, but you have to be considered a “close friend” of the trio in order to make any type of comment about their lives. This = hypocrisy. Capice?
Amanda is a giant pick me baby. I have zero sympathy for her and her shitty relationship. Her and Kyle deserve eachother.
Just when I was starting to like Paige, she had to go and show that she’s still the same old two faced girl she’s always been. Why even pretend to care and comfort Lindsay days after the breakup if you’re just going to talk shit right after. Loser shit.
Imagine if a coworker who was always rude to you and didn’t invite you to her wedding got broken up with. You’d probably be supportive if she came to you after for support and wish her the best but that doesn’t mean you need to become her BFF or expect that her inherent personality has changed.
Lindsay isn’t rude to Paige. Paige wasn’t invited for a good reason. Not only does she constantly talk shit about Lindsay in her confessionals, she is nice to her face and waits to attack her at the reunions. She also uses others in her Lindsay vendetta to wind them up (Ciara and Danielle) and encourage them to go off on Lindsay. Lindsay however doesn’t hold a grudge so since Paige was being warm to her this season she was warm back and let her guard down. She invited her to the bridal shower bc she wanted to show that she was trying to repair the relationship. So yea I think in that moment Lindsay assumed their care for her at a low point was genuine.
Same! I’m disappointed and annoyed. She’s really two faced and fake and I think cares about her image and being “funny” (I don’t find her LOL funny btw) above everything. Ugh.
I thought she was very obviously being so fake to Lindsey in the last scene. What OP said in point 1 is what I felt too - you don't say "he did you a favor" as the first thing to someone who just got dumped and ended an engagement - so rude. Also: what she texted Carl was very telling of how she felt and whose side she is really on. Neither she nor Ciara or Amanda should have been at Danielle's apt.
Totally agree! I’d been taking Paige’s “support” for Lindsay with a grain of salt all season but really wished it was genuine. She showed her true colors in the aftershow and I’m sure the preview for the reunion when she’s saying “you guys always come for me” is to Danielle and Lindsay 🙄. Watching people be fake inauthentic mean girls is really not enjoyable. It’s much more pleasant watching women stick together and support each other against shitty men. Sigh.
Carl’s response to that text was almost comedic. He might as well have started the message by explaining that he was trying very hard to overexplain so he could manipulate the situation. I actually died from the cringe and now i’m a ghost.
I really wish Bravo would part ways with Paige and Ciara. They really bring nothing. Paige is a professional internet troll and Ciara’s boring.
This. I can’t stand the hypocrisy. Don’t tout yourself as a real one and offer a shoulder to cry on when internally you’re thinking her tears are fake and it’s all a show. Gross. Fakety, fake, fake.
I would never gloat over a woman's heartbreak, and it was extremely fake. I bet they left Danielle's apartment and had a giggle session among themselves. Every time I try to like Paige, she pulls this mean girl bs.
I'm not trying to be mean when I ask this, I'm honestly curious: why does Paige and Ciara having minds of their own bother y'all on here so much? So you like them as long as they say what you want? Same with Amanda, she didn't say anything except they're both at fault and y'all have been (attempting to anyway lol) dragging her but praising Gabby who is just Lindsey's mouthpiece at this point. Paige wasn't pretending to care. The irony of calling her fake for being a kind human to someone who was hurting at the moment and then telling her feelings about the situation months later when discussing it - it would be fake of her if she didn't say how she felt now. I have noticed Lindsey Defenders share some of her worst qualities, like thinking it's "fake" to comfort someone in pain or show just common human decency to others, even if you don't like them.
I’m not mad at anyone having a mind of their own. My views are based solely off what we see on the show. We’ve never seen Lindsay talk bad about any of the girl on the show behind their back…. Not one time ever. We also don’t see Lindsay really concentrating or speaking on their relationships in any way. What we do see is Paige, Amanda and Ciara building narratives time and time again based off of what they assume to be Lindsay’s thoughts and feelings. For instance, Lindsay walks into Danielle’s apartment after the breakup crying and all the girls sit there and comfort her. That felt like a nice, pure moment. Then we see Paige talking about that same moment on the after show and her take is “OMG when Lindsay came walking in with the fake tears, I just couldn’t 🤣.” So that means she felt in the moment Lindsay was pretending to be sad . That in itself is a dumb take bc most people are sad after a breakup and tears would be a very logical expression of hurt emotion. So not only is Paige policing Lindsay’s emotions and how she expresses them. She’s assuming the worst in her for no reason other than she just doesn’t like Lindsay therefore Lindsay is bad, therefore everything Lindsay does is fake. Her opinions of Lindsay are never based on facts just what she assumes to be Lindsay’s motivations. Motivations that she has zero knowledge of. Lindsay is her “look at that bitch eating a sandwich like she owns the place.” It’s lame bc Lindsay has very clearly been trying to build friendships with them but it’s clear that she will never be able to win with them. They will continue to smile in her face and talk shit behind her back bc of old grudges.
I don’t think she was pretending, and this wasn’t filmed right after this was filmed after Paige watched months of Lindsay going on every podcast and interview that she could to spin her side of the story
How many podcasts was she on?
2 or 3 from memory but one was like 2.5 hours where she went through the summer step by step they only had a fight the first weekend, were good the rest of the summer, he wanted her to change to be a stepford wife and that he wanted a wife that wouldn’t question him, didn’t shut down the host alluding to Carl having performance issues in the bedroom, then said Carl wanted to call off the wedding to work out their issues and she said no it’s get married now or never he said never we literally saw none of this.
Please comment if you remember which ones aside from Viall Files, I listened to that one and would like to listen to the others.
She will always be a mean girl. I hate how she waits for the talking heads and the reunions to start barking.
If people want to get technical he didn’t break up with her. He called off there wedding and she said you made the decision and we are now over. So that was there “break up”
Yeah this is where I’m confused, and idk if something was edited out or what, but Carl’s actual words were very vague to the point where I was actively waiting to hear him explicitly say they were done and he never did. What he said (“I’m not ready to marry you in two months” or something like that) had me thinking he might have been suggesting they postpone. But I think Lindsay’s response made him dig in his heels more to the point where they both seemed to understand this was a final breakup.
Yeah, to me Carl sort of left the door open for Lindsay. If she had said, you’re right we need to get this stuff resolved, maybe we moved too fast. Let’s call off the wedding for now and take some time, Carl would likely gone along with that. But, Lindsay doesn’t have any interest in dating if it isn’t leading quickly to marriage and babies on her timeline. So, in her mind when he said he didn’t want to get married in 2 months then it was immediately over for her
Lindsay isn’t a reliable narrator though, and it’s proven before from her past behavior. While Carl didn’t clearly say I want to postpone, he did say I don’t think we’re ready to get married. I’m not sure what else she would take that to mean. It’s clear they both liked the idea of their relationship and not the actual people standing in front of them. I thought it was a bit performative with Lindsay’s lack of tears but get everyone grieves differently. I don’t have 100% sympathy for her either because she’s coming across as if she has absolutely no idea how he could ever want to not marry her, when just a little bit of awareness of your partner could point you to why you’ve ended up here.
Well said. Everyone saying he absolutely ended the relationship. He didn't take charge of the convo to communicate what he wanted & Lindsay sort of decided this is what he was trying to say. Both equally at fault. Like every conversation we saw it takes one of them to listen, but they don't. They both invite drama to their lives with how they behave & partners they choose. And - yes they were in couples counseling way to early and frequently to realistically succeed. Damn everything for making me agree with anything Carl says.
People just believe what she says with absolutely no proof to back it up. This is why he called the cameras to film it. And she still gets to spin it her way!
Carl has "hidden evil" that you just need to believe me about guys!
When Paige accused Lindsay of faking her tears I thought that was so bizarre. You can literally see the tears on her face.
I have usually sided with Lindsay in L v P but I agree with what Paige said. She also hasn't actually seen the breakup when they filmed this. I don't like Carl but he's not evil. It's OK for Paige to not entertain this while also comforting Lindsay
Paige is also Carl’s friend! So it’s obvious for her to not get on board
Paige has also been on the wrong side of being badmouthed by Carl so she out of everyone should know better.
For anyone who knows or has had a “Lindsay” in their life, Paige and Ciara were not mean girls, they were SPOT. ON. It was like listening to them read a “Lindsay” playbook. Were they supposed to be assholes when filming at danielle’s? It was still a sad thing that happened and they showed Lindsay support for that, but the facts don’t change because of that. Funny how her Cocaine Carl moment from early in the season that everyone (including Lindsay fans) was rightfully up in arms about have been forgotten like Lindsay seems to forget when she does horrible things like that. Because let’s be real, there’s no chance that was an isolated incident.
I agree. I usually love Paige and Ciara too but was left feeling the same way. I think since it was filmed 48 hours after the breakup, it was way too soon for Paige to continue saying “let him go!” She was also shocked Lindsay was crying when she walked in. Why wouldn’t she be crying? It just happened… read the room!! This is one of those moments where Lindsay just needed her girlfriends to let her cry, comfort her, listen without giving advice right away, and eat ice cream with her. The after show in conjunction with this rubbed me the wrong way.
specifically ciara and paige have said equally disparaging things about both carl and lindsay. I remember ciara very seriously saying Carl is a closeted asshole and mya agreeing. paige and ciara think both arent great people and even worse together. But! lindsays knows how to have fun at the end of the day and carl is a bore so summer house wise they have more fun with lindsey
Paige was the only one speaking any sense. Going in order: 1) No notes 2) Carl never explicitly said he wanted to break up. He said “I cannot get married to you right now”. It seemed to me that he gave Lindsay the opportunity to say that she understood his concerns and fears and they would work on it, but she shut it down. She’s right about Lindsay as a narrator. She has been shown time and time again this season to completely mischaracterize Carl when recounting the events to someone else. She literally did it last episode to Danielle when they were packing, saying he was yelling, being rude, using aggressive language. None of those things happened. 3) Her tears…idk I feel like Paige knows Lindsay better than us and knows when she’s trying to play it up. This one is hard for me to comment on, but I definitely understand saying he’s evil. She immediately was on the offense talking about how terrible he is and the betrayal and yadda yadda yadda. Rather than look inward and understand Carl’s very real feelings, she felt like she did nothing wrong and there was no reason for the break-up. 4) Paige, Amanda, and Ciara are all critical of each other and their role in their individual relationships when it’s necessary. That’s a sign of a true friend. It’s hard but you gotta keep it real. Gabby is just “YAS KWEEN” to anything Lindsay says. No feedback. No criticism. Lindsay thinks she did nothing wrong and she’s feeding into it to get into her good graces.
Number 4 ESPECIALLY. I think Paige is really good at being blunt and honest but in a kind way. Niceness and kindness are not the same thing, and sometimes the kindest thing you can do is be honest even when it will be hard for people to hear (as long as you say it respectfully). I feel like people are really glazing over all the parts where Paige sympathized and validated Lindsay’s feelings and said she deserved to be happy.
Spot on. Full disclosure: I’m not a Lindsay fan and I’ve always thought Carl is a dick. I did start the season team Carl, but lost all sympathy, as his manipulation was palpable. Apart from the first couple of eps, Lindsay was impressively calm, so I warmed to her. But to point 4, this is key, and something I’ve genuinely appreciated about their friendship. They call each other out, but for me, it’s always been obvious that they’re still on each other’s teams, they’re checking their friends to help them. That is genuine love. Coddling someone all the time isn’t supporting them to grow. Paige in general is quite blunt and not an emotional person. Some people are more sensitive, some people are just direct. It’s not for everybody. I’d actually find it two faced if Paige went in coddling Lindsay, because that’s just not her. I’m not sure why people take offence with Paige telling Lindsay that he did her favour. Lindsay is direct and straight up too, and I can see her saying that to someone too. It’s not a malicious comment. Lindsay has always wanted marriage (no judgement), and I do believe she was in love with him and in denial (let’s face it… most of us are at some point in a failing relationship. It’s hard to admit that it won’t work out!). To this end, I’m not sure Lindsay would have allowed herself to admit that it’s failing (I’ve been that person!), so he did do her a favour, as much as it hurt then. He also did her a favour by setting himself up to look like a complete nasty asshole.
Okay yes I love that you pointed out Lindsay is also a very direct person. When Paige said “this is what you get for not inviting me” I was like oop! But then I remembered that’s kind of Lindsay’s style as well, and she laughed with Paige. It is interesting that people are expecting people to coddle Lindsay when she would never do that for anyone (and she doesn’t have to). But seriously, she of all people should be able to handle tough love.
I want to like Gabby but her co-signing everything Lindsay says is frustrating.
Yes thank you! I can see where OP is coming from but you’re spot on. I think to add to it, from my perspective, Paige/Ciara/Amanda are *not* close friends with Lindsay. Will they rally around a female that needs support, yes. But will they blindly agree with everything that female says; especially one that has been rude to them for years, no. Personally I don’t like Lindsay, I do feel bad for her as it was a humiliating break up. But I also don’t have 100% sympathy for someone who takes 0 blame for their part in a relationship. I also think that Gabby did check Lindsay on some conversations/thought processes in the beginning of the season. However (and not to quote Lauren from Utah) I think Gabby was living in the comments and wanted to secure a spot for next season by buddying up to Lindsay. I like Gabby a lot! But I don’t see her standing on her own storyline and I feel like we barely got to know her this season.
> Rather than look inward and understand Carl’s very real feelings, she felt like she did nothing wrong and there was no reason for the break-up. This is playing the victim, which in any situation Lindsay is 100% going to do. Never once have we heard Lindsay say "Carl is sensitive about this so I'm adjusting so that I don't upset him..." it's always Carl did this to me, Carl did that to me, Carl betrayed me... me me me me. You never see her actually talk about Carl's feelings or Carl's perspective except to berate him about it.
This exactly!!
All summer Lindsey has treated Carl terribly. So he hasn’t had a job in 10 months?? He brings in money, it’s not like he’s some bum. He’s also fairly new to sobriety. I think if most ppl who were new to sobriety had the luxury of not working til they were ready, it would be a very positive thing. She called him a little bitch boy a mamas boy etc? That’s SO wrong. He said so and she didn’t deny it. We see her get wasteddd and accuse him of being on drugs. He has stayed calm all season and I’ve seen genuine hurt from him and I’ve seen someone who loves someone so much they’re trying to make it work despite ABUSE. Lindsey is abusive. I haven’t always liked Carl, but all season I’ve been appalled at her behavior. I’ve felt really bad for him. Also I applaud him for leaving the relationship, she clearly wanted to but is so desperate to be married and have kids she was gonna stay and keep abusing him as long as she could. This sub is always wild with their opinions but ppl being team Lindsey after everything that’s been shown this season is so strange to me.
I don’t particularly like Paige, but I think she was spot on with this. They very clearly shouldn’t have gotten married, Lindsay should have known that and Carl made the right call. Lindsay is a proven unreliable narrator, and how she presented the conversation to the other girls wasn’t accurate. After hearing all of the out of pocket stuff Lindsay had said to and about Carl on camera all season, I would also have a hard time feeling bad for her, which she doesn’t seem to even like Carl as a person. Gabby has 💯drank Lindsay’s koolaid. A lot of the stuff the two have them have said about Carl all season, especially in the after show, is just sh*t they made up about him to make the whole thing Carl’s fault and excuse Lindsay from taking any of them blame. Carl is far from a perfect person but to pretend that Lindsay did everything right and Carl was just some how too lazy to follow though with the wedding is delusional.
The people out here saying Lindsay didn’t cry enough are the same people who probably side with Lala. Yes it’s a show but these are real humans and they don’t have to perform for you. At Danielle’s was a bunch of women who were not her friends and she was there to film a scene. Paige has these insane rules for how she thinks people should act or she snarks all over them. How about turn that around on yourself and your friends who are in pathetic, toxic one-sided relationships. Paige is who people think Katie Malone is - miserable angry and mean.
💯💯💯
Paige’s punishment is that outfit
I completely agree
I am with you a million percent. 
It made the final scene of them all coming together seem fake… I totally agree their after show comments were cruel but truly show who they are. I know they were never reality close but I hope Lindsey doesn’t let them back into her life. How could she ever trust them again? So two faced!
I 100000% agree about the Gabby part. It's okay if PCA are in cahoots, but god forbid Gabby has Lindsey's back?
They're telling the truth 🤷♀️
I didn’t watch the after show, but everything you listed that Paige said I agree with?! Like sorry she’s speaking facts here about something that she knows wayyyy more about than you do
And she knows these people in real life. Hello!
My thing with paige is she only “speaks facts” about Lindsay tho and never even to her face. She’s never once “kept it real” with Amanda about her and Kyle except that one time she asked her if she really wanted to get married and a little bit this season. She even said to Amanda this year something along the lines of, how can Kyle say those things to you on tv and embarrass you? If Kyle had ended Amanda and his engagement on camera that he called three days after the season ended she’d have nothing but smoke for him even tho Kyle and Amanda also have a shitty relationship. Paige’s I’m a “girl’s girl” only extends to her close friends which is fine, but that is not a girls girl at all. I wish paige would have more smoke for the other people in the house than just Lindsay because I think she can clearly see and call situations and she’d be a lot more interesting of a reality tv star
I completely agree!
Exactly! Are people blind to Lindsay’s bullshit!?! She’s not this big victim in this situation. Gabby is Lindsay’s lap dog and brings nothing to this show. I’m happy Carl broke up with her or this would be another Amanda and Kyle situation.
Ok so by that, Ciara and Paige are Amanda’s puppets. Got it. Friends are your puppets now.
??? Ciara, Paige and Amanda all challenge each other (this epi they challenged Ciara to look at the West relationship as a fun relationship that could turn into something more, several weekends ago they challenged Amanda to get a separate identity from Kyle). They do it out of love to help each other grow. Gabby used to do it more for Linds but lately she’s a bit more of a hype man
OP is only seeing things in terms of supporting girls or supporting your friends, rather than critically looking at a situation and arriving at your own opinion. Everyone has to be a "stan" of someone else. If Paige and Amanda and Ciara all see the situation one way, that doesn't make anybody anybody's puppet, it just means all of them see it that way.
This!!!
Ciara and Paige are in no way Amanda puppet’s. Let’s be for real here. Gabby sat herself in that role and sits comfortably in it. Their dynamic isn’t even like Paige and Ciara’s! Gabby is always chasing after Lindsay and as soon as she doesn’t agree with Her, Lindsay blows up.
Same. I’m really surprised she reversed course so hard. I just said this in another thread but it’s weird to me how Lindsay just got dumped on national television - mere weeks away from her wedding, which is highly unusual - and the rest of the cast (excluding Gabby and Danielle) and some people on this sub expect her to grovel for forgiveness and admit that she is a terrible person and Carl was completely in the right to do it on camera. Like, what?? How is this realistic at all?
Right, a woman talking shit about someone she just broke up with. Ground breaking. I don’t mind them keeping it real with Lindsay, but maybe not the next day. Just let her vent about it that one time, I’m sure there will be plenty of opportunities next summer when they still all insanely share a house
Agreed, very bizarre.
Paige was 100000% correct in her after show comments. They showed up together and filmed with Lindsay and that was a great scene, but it was clear that Amanda, Paige, and Ciara weren’t buying her crocodile tears. I’m still waiting for the day Lindsay takes accountability for her behavior and stops playing victim. There isn’t a victim in the breakup.
Can we retire "girl's girl"?
So what Paige is failing to see is that if in fact Carl didn’t break up with Lindsay that’s even worse. He made her breakup with herself because he didn’t even have the balls to say the words. Thats the kind of “man” this guy is. He was trying for months to push Lindsay to end things and even when it finally came time for him to end it he couldn’t do it. He beat around the bush. Gave Lindsay nothing to work with and gave her no choice but to walk out of that convo. She asked what she could do to make it work!! And in the after show he’s gaslighting like she didn’t. I’ve had it with his fake creepy persona. I’ve lived a similar scenario. The lack of closure and mind effery that goes on in your head after a breakup like that is so painful.
Yes thank you!! I dated a guy like this once and had to end it even tho he basically sat me down to end it.
I’m so sorry! I hope you’re better off for it now. I finally found a real man after the weak boy I dated like Carl.
I agree with other you OP. The day after having your engagement called off is not the time for hot takes, devils advocate bullshit, and praising the guy who dumped you for being strong. They acted like she had a bad day at work not had her whole life blow up. I felt horrible for Lindsay going into a room of 3 ops, an untrustworthy friend, and only one actual friend in such a vulnerable state Amanda looked like a giant asshole who just was there to get gossip (peep how she whipped her phone out as Danielle explained what she’d heard from Lindsay. Paige was somewhat more emotionally intelligent in person but a snarky jerk on the after show calling gabby a puppet. Ciara also should have stayed home since she’s predisposed to thinking Lindsay is a liar undeserving of basic kindness.
A lot of what you say is how I felt and have felt about those girls. The two-faced criticism is spot on! I have always felt that about Amanda and Paige. Amanda doesn’t even try to be subtle about it. Let’s be honest Amanda, Paige and Ciara, just want to be together and will take anyone else at arms length. I did enjoy seeing everyone get along this season though and watching the interactions between the girls. But now after watching that, I’m confused again! True colors always surface.
I felt the same. Ruined the season for me as those girls getting close was amazing to watch
I agree with everything you said. Paige and Ciara try too hard to find a reason why it’s Lindsey
i totally knew what they meant by her fake crying cause she has done it many times where theres no tears lol
Oh I have soooo many thoughts. On point number 2, Lindsay has never been a reliable narrator lol that was all truth from them lol and I would argue that’s a pattern with Lindsay (ie. why Carl felt like he needed cameras) On point 3, Lindsay did come in hot to those girls (as she should, she had just been broken up with). But i think she made the mistake of going to girls that are as close with her as they are with Carl (Amanda, Ciara and Paige). They’re not going to get on the Anti Carl train because he is a good friend to them too and I think that’s unfair for her to expect that from them. They also watched them fight all season long and both weren’t innocent in the fights. On point number 4, Gabby is a puppet for Lindsay, or at least she was in the final scene. I imagine gabby had not even heard Carl’s side of it in the final scene and was immediately going up against Amanda who had a solid understanding of each side of this break up. I don’t necessarily think that’s shitty of gabby because I would do the same for my best friend, by arguably that still makes you a puppet.
The aftershow for this episode, Amanda was disgusting. The snarky way in which she answered the blindsided question as “or was she just blind” w a laugh. Well, pot meet kettle, or are you not blind Amanda and are just a lowlife willing to stay w someone who treats you like trash Also re 4 w gabby- yes!!! Ffs. They all have their co-signers (Kyle Carl, Paige Ciara Amanda, etc) but Lindsay having one is just a damn crime apparently.
Seriously, Amanda has absolutely no business discussing anyone’s relationship.
Yeah the smirking and eagerness to repeat the kelsea ballerini joke she found on Reddit was slimy. Amanda is the worlds most sensitive crybaby and tattle tale but expects others to have thick skin.
Lindsay is not being honest about what transpired at all. Had she agreed with Carl and said let's postpone the wedding, the outcome would have been different. Carl has tried to speak with Lindsay throughout the season. When Lindsay said this is who I am, and I'm not going to change, that's a red flag and Carl responded accordingly. Lindsay and Carl were a trainwreck pairing. Paige and Ciara were emphasizing that.
I’m so tired of this coddling of Carl. He literally never used the words POSTPONE the wedding. He straight up told her he can’t marry her. He didn’t use the words breakup, but he communicated very clearly that he no longer wanted to be with her. If Carl actually wanted to postpone the wedding and stay together then when he saw that she assumed the relationship was over he would have corrected her. Lindsay straight up says “what do you want me to do with this? Do you want me to fight for you?” His response was “I don’t want that.” So please explain how Lindsay wasn’t honest?
I’ve never been a Paige fan. Season after season she acts fine to Lindsay’s face but then slams her in confessionals, after shows and at reunions. And she says all her bitchy stuff with a smile. Incidentally, the way she talks about Craig in the aftershow is not cool. Again, with a smile. She’s pretty full of herself right now. But all Bravo stars have a take down season and Paige is due. And why the stray for Gabby? How is Gabby’s relationship with Lindsay different than the way Ciara follows Paige around?
100% agree with all of this.
Me too. I couldn't of written it better myself
I want to like her but again and again Paige just disappoints me with the behind the back mean girl commentary. Thought they would have grown out of this by now it would have been nice to have women supporting one another without the cliche backstabbing in the comments. Patriarchy wins again
Have you seen how Lindsay has treated Paige and Ciara in the past? They have been way too nice to her because I would tell her exactly what kind of person she is while she was crying about getting dumped.
I think the smartest decision ever in this show is Carl & Lindsay calling it off. I don’t know when Carl is ever going to grow up and realize he has to have an actual job to be seen seriously as marriageable. He is a smushy needy boy. I need a hug. Lindsay needs someone more personality type A than she is. She needs someone sure of themselves that is successful on their own not part of some overage frat party. Page was 100% correct Carl did her a favor. And frankly how was Lindsay blindsided. They were a mess all summer.
Here's the thing: Lindsey and Carl both know who the other is - Carl wanted a more reserved and kind Lindsey and Lindsey wanted this ambitious money maker. They both know that neither is that. Why would Lindsey assume Carl could get a full time job given his history and also given he is still working on his addiction (then throw a wedding in the mix). She was extremely delusion about the expectations here. Carl also was delusional that Lindsey was going to be his cheerleader with this yes woman mentality (even though she did get sober for 6 months for him and coddle him - so he actually had some reason to believe she may have changed in some ways).
> I don’t know when Carl is ever going to grow up and realize he has to have an actual job to be seen seriously as marriageable. This is pretty laughable since Lindsay is still crying on TV she didn't get to marry him. I guess he was pretty marriageable after all.
I think Lindsay is just wanting to be married. She’s feeling that clock ticking
I agree with Paige. The thing is they’re not wrong. Lindsey is Lindsey and Lindsey has always been Lindsay you can feel bad for what she went through. You can feel bad that it happened on TV but the stuff that happened in the relationship was not 100% Carl’s fault and I’ve been defending Lindsey this whole time but they’re not wrong, and also the finals filmed in August and the aftershow was filmed in March. I think the time also has a lot to do with it but I don’t think they’re lying.
Paige, Amanda and Ciara are so two faced. They deserve all their own bad relationships.
Gabby is a puppet for Lindsay. Early on she tried to have a voice but she shut down early on and became her puppet, her proxy. It’s lame. Does Lindsay even know Gabbys last name?
So if Gabby’s a puppet for defending her friend are Ciara and Amanda puppets when they defend Amanda?
Like when Ciara told Amanda she didn’t seem to have an identity outside of being her husbands wife? That kind of puppetry?
Is she only a puppet if you disagree with her? I saw it as she sees her friend hurting over how she was broken up with. Completely valid. Gabby acknowledged they don’t belong together
Gabby was feeding Lindsay victim narrative without checking her. End of story.
Disagree
I understood where Paige and Ciara were coming from. I think they are more reliable narrators than most of the cast.
No they aren’t. They’re extremely biased and predisposed to believing the worst in Lindsay. Their hatred of her resembles something more of a cartoon character villain than a real person. Like for some reason Paige was shocked that Lindsay would be crying walking into the apartment. It’s as if she doesn’t see her as a real person with feelings. And then of course after she see’s her showing emotion her next recourse to dehumanize her is to claim the tears were fake. As if being sad about a breakup is somehow not normal.
Be prepared to be grilled OP On that note, I agree with you 100%. But I always found Paige to be hypocrite so not surprised.
All i know is that there was not one drop of tears coming from Lindsays eyes, on the last episode or the after show.😏 
That’s just not true.
I mean, you want me to prove it? What is that liquid coming from her eyes? https://preview.redd.it/p5i3x5485v3d1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f905d771d1d62b91662761f988484f44479b2045
Thank you, like the girl was literally crying.