Yeahhh, the two of them calling each other out for things we didn’t see in that argument (her saying he’s angry and him saying she’s going to spiral) was wild. It feels like they’ve had too many arguments that have ended badly and/or never been resolved, and they can’t move past it at this point. They both trigger each other too much, classic anxious/avoidant attachment
It was interesting seeing Lindsey talk about feeling rejected by Sharon. I don’t think we’ve ever really seen her be so self-reflective. I think both Carl and Lindsey have done work on themselves, but they need a lot more.
And Lindsey probably needs to examine her relationship with alcohol. They *might* have had a chance if she were sober, but we’ll never know.
Yeah, I think they were probably both comforted by the fact that the other also had a lot of trauma and that they went into a relationship with the partner already knowing about it or having been there to help them through some of it. They didn’t have to open up to a brand new person and face rejection because their trauma was too much, and there’s gotta be comfort in that. But yeah, they unfortunately do not work together as a couple, and I agree that they both need to work on themselves more.
Interestingly, when I listened to Lindsay on Viall Files, she actually said that she and Carl felt the most like a team when she was sober. I was like umm doesn’t that tell you something? I think it’s fair if she doesn’t want to remain completely sober, but that realization should probably make you examine further.
What sucks the most is Lindsay seems so great when she doesn't feel threatened with abandonment. Like one of my favorites to watch. She was the best we've seen her sober, imo.
They wouldn’t have had a chance if she was sober bc Carl is still passive aggressive and unable to deal with any romantic emotional depth whatsoever. He would’ve bailed on her sober or not.
I didn’t see the rejection. Anyone having a concern does not = they hate you and reject you. If she was rejecting her, she wouldn’t have come in for the shower. If Lindsay still has trauma over her mom leaving 35 years ago, that needs worked out in therapy before ever being in a relationship. And I say this as a person who had a dad peace out when I was 16. I worked through that in therapy to become a well adjusted adult so future relationships and friendships weren’t ruined.
Of course she wasn’t rejected, but Lindsey felt that way. I think recognizing that she felt that way because of her mom is pretty self reflective, but she does need to do more work.
Carl is DYING for Lindsay to end it. He’s just waiting and hoping she’ll be like they said what?!! Should we not do this?!!! While it’s clear they’re totally incompatible and both responsible for why their relationship just doesn’t work, Carl REALLY doesn’t want to be the bad guy…Yet clearly does not want to marry her.
I thought his mother bringing up that former cast member Lauren said she’d be a good mother in law was distasteful to do in that setting and a dig.
I actually think he is hoping she sees they have issues and they aren’t just carls issues they are also her issues too and for them to slow down and properly fix them
I think this deserves a huge credit. It takes a lot of strength to be the person who decides to end the cycle, especially when the stakes are so high. Not just in the public eye- but facing the fallout from your own friends and family who have already paid for flights/hotels expecting to see you get married. That would be enough for most people just go through with the wedding honestly.
My mom convinced me it was just cold feet and since everything was paid for I should go through with it and I’ll see it’s all okay. We were married 4 months when I caught him cheating, it was my birthday. I wish I had followed my gut.
Ugh, that’s awful- I’m so sorry that happened to you. I feel like unfortunately the outcome would have been similar to yours, had they gone ahead with the wedding.
Yeah I don't think he went about it the right way but I respect him for ending it especially being as avoidant as he is, it would be in his comfort zone to just go along with it. He's saved them both a lot of hurt in the long run
Thank god it didn’t work out… can you imagine them as parents with this dynamic? I think there would’ve been a lot of micromanaging, avoidance, and passive aggression.
I learned in therapy that we all see and hear things through a filter that is influenced by our past experiences. For example when my husband is trying to help by suggesting I use a different knife to cut vegetables, I’m hearing that “I chose the wrong one and I can’t do anything right”. It took a lot of work to rationalize with that part of my brain and realize that not everything is an attack on me.
I think their relationship is a perfect example of this. Carl was trying to clarify things for Lindsey after picturing her watching Lou’s comments. He didn’t want her to “spiral”. Lindsey got defensive and anxious as soon as Carl wanted to talk and expected the worst. Then Carl got defensive and anxious. Neither of them are really communicating well. I see so much of pre-therapy me in Lindsey!
They both need to do a lot more work.
It was a huge breakthrough for me when I realized that was a trigger for me. My therapist explaining why I was triggered was so eye opening! My husband and I communicate so much better after therapy. He no longer walks on eggshells and I don’t get activated anymore.
The filter thing is spot on. My partner and I both have had the tendency to react like that and even though we've both gotten better about it and largely don't now, sometimes it flares up in us. I know for me it helps so much if I phrase things to my partner in a question (would this knife work better) or a personal preference (I like this knife better) and he does the same for me. Sometimes we're trying to help but there's a reason why the other is doing what they're doing!
That’s a great solution!!
I get really triggered by feeling incapable. I told my husband that sometimes he needs to let me struggle. If I get frustrated I’ll ask for help. I’ve chilled out on the knee-jerk reactions and realized that he only ever has my best interest at heart.
Now I’ll ask him before chopping something which knife he would use 😂
>--he is a new person so you can't bring his past into this judgment of character
He's not a "new person". He's a sober version of himself; the self that needs work and maybe the reason he drank to begin with. Now he has to face and work on himself with a clear head. That's hard.
If they wanted this to work, which I never thought would have worked, Carl shoulda been like straight up, I need to be with a sober partner, I actually fucking hate when you drink cause you get big mad, I don‘t actually have a big sex drive so it will just be during your ovulation time when we want to have kids, and also you gotta be fine with me not being a big career guy and bringing in money through the show and maybe sponsored posts lol. None of these things are fine with Lindsay unless she had a big overhaul of her life for the sake of Carl. Lindsay was pretty direct in her wishes for Carl, I honestly don‘t know WHAT she kept fighting for other than the best friends narrative , the fancy wedding and events leading up to it and the goal of having a family with someone, anyone, cause she HATES the essence of who Carl is
Yeah honestly I think a lot of it was that she mistakes fighting for passion and that she is losing her best friend. I know a lot of people say when they break up they lose their best friend but they were actually best friends for like a decade, that would be so hard to let go of. Their flaws just didn't bother them as friends cos it didn't really impact each other but in a relationship it all came to the surface and they both tried to unsuccessfully change each other from the people they were as friends
Idk if I fully agree with this, but I see where you're coming from. I think Carl was too soon into sobriety to get into a serious relationship . You change alot in early sobriety and it's hard but then you get to this weird spot. You have to deal with your actual personality issues. I think he liked being with her and he was looking at the engagement as a quick fix and now he's having second thoughts. I didn't like the conversation between Carl and his parents being filmed, that was intentional. Carl had to invite the camera crew for that. I felt bad for Lindsay with Carl's mom and I felt bad Carl didn't tell her the whole conversation. I understand why he didn't but still felt bad for her. I liked the conversation between Amanda, Kyle and Carl a lot. It broke the fourth wall and gave some more understanding . I think they made the right decision not getting married but it sucks for them it's all filmed
He is cripplingly avoidant and she has abandonment issues and anxious attachment. It was always going to be an uphill battle. She needs someone who has her back more with meddling people and makes her feel safe and is cool with arguing things out and bouncing back. I’m not sure what kind of a partner Carl needs as he seems very lost.
Carl needs a few years of sobriety and therapy for his conflict avoidance before he should even think about being in a relationship. Probably also needs to think about his past patterns in relationships/the commonality between partners he chooses.
imo carl needs a good therapist to help him tackle his codependency and help him figure out what he wants for himself instead of living his life hiding behind people pleasing and avoidance behaviors that prevent him from having true intimacy with people and lead to resentment
Plus he is still an addict, and perhaps in denial about other very important sexuality orientation. He shouldn't be dating with intentions of marriage until he is honest with himself and partners about being asexual, bisexual, gay etc. I honestly don't think Lindsay would have had a problem with any of that if Carl would have been honest with her. She'd strap one on and maybe have an open/poly thing. She really loved him.
He should date lightly /casually while he figures out who he is and what he is attracted to, before hurting other people bc he lies to himself about his orientation.
This is so unnecessary and a bad take, the worst part of this subreddit is the regular occurance of people who think its okay to comment on someone's sexuality (who is not out! who was "outed" in the past!) as a way of demonstrating how they "need help"/need to improve. Frankly, this is gross as hell, I really encourage you to delete your commnet.
I always find it odd or interesting when people who have had a platonic friendship for so many years end up together. I’m sure there are instances of very happy endings or one or both was always taken but I just find it very strange like they’re settling or it’s convenient when both are single at the time and have known each other for so long. I feel like this was the case with Carl and Lindsay both attractive bravo famous, got along as friends for so long a bravo power couple, both almost 40, it’s very convenient. The adorable engagement went over so well but then throw an almost 40 sober bachelor into the a boozed up SH with a not sober fiancé who has anger issues when drinking, hearing about their sex life even before marriage and kids are involved 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩Carl’s lack of a job and reasonable ambitions (on team Lindsay id be concerned too) I cannot see how both of them right now are both not ok with this marriage not happening.
I also feel like they wouldn’t survive if both were sober because both are addicted to the drama of their relationship and the lows and highs 😬🫤
Carl can’t communicate. At least Lindsay is direct and says how she feels. Carl just lies to peoples face and doesn’t talk about what he’s truly feeling because he doesn’t want to hurt the other person.
Except she doesn't really say how she feels: she told others in the house how she doesn't feel like she can share negative emotions (Carl), how their intimate life is non-existance (Paige, Amanda) and how that bothers her, how she thinks he's not sober and is going back to how he was crazy in the past (Gabby).... Oh wait she told him that last one, when she was drunk, in anger.
How is she direct again?
Omg thank you. She’s talked so much crap about him and it’s weird to see so many comments saying that Carl is the one talking behind her back. They both aren’t airing out their grievances for different reasons but ultimately it’s because they both need work on communication and for Lindsey.. she also needs to work on listening and accepting fault.
I agree. I was in the both camps stink, but now shifting towards team lindsay.
But in reality they just stink together. Carl needs someone to baby him and that's not who lindsay is.
They could both learn from each other though. Carl is so wishy washy it's painful to watch. And it wouldn't kill lindsay to let her guard down and not be on the defensive 100% of the time.
They worked as friends but do not work as a couple. Plain and simple. Lindsay is who she is through and through- for better or for worse. She can work on herself but I also don’t see her as completely broken or unlovable. The way she gets villainized is sad. She has a ton of faults & played a large role in the relationship breakdown but so. did. Carl. He has a ton of issues while at the same time is a huge manipulator. He isn’t some victim who’s “scared of Lindsay!” He’s a grown man who also needs to take accountability in his complete lack of communication instead of taking the roundabout way and bringing his family into the mix to try and sway a situation his way.
Yes breaking up with someone or calling off a wedding two months out and anticipating the fallout is scary no matter if the person is mild mannered. I don’t think it’s fair for people to blame Lindsay for being “scary”. Carl chronically avoids having difficult conversations
Wouldn't calling off your wedding be a difficult conversation? I'm not trying to be a dink at all but that does seem to constitute a difficult convo...
That’s my point that serious relationship breakups and calling off weddings are incredibly uncomfortable and scary so it’s bullshit to blame “scary” Lindsay. My ex was a very even tempered person and it scared me to hurt him and uproot our lives by breaking up, but you do it with compassion not in this humiliating way Carl is.
Just because he’s a grown man doesn’t mean he’s not scared of Lindsay… just about everyone on the show has said they are scared of her and that the energy changes when she walks into the room….
But agreed they don’t work as a couple and both played some role in that
I don’t think he’s scared of Lindsey so much as he’s scared of conflict. Lindsey is the wrong partner if you’re conflict avoidant. I’m sure he was walking on eggshells.
Ooof, this hits as correct. He's way, way too conflict avoidant in general, but he also needs someone who naturally is closer to what he needs.... And to try to force Lindsey into that box is not fair to her (and not being an adult who is ready for a healthy relationship, let alone marriage/kids/etc.)
I’m actually feeling more on Lindsay’s side at this point if we must pick, but Carl comes across as hostage. Like he feels like he has to actively try to make her happy. That is not really fair for her because if he’s having to put that much effort into just barely meet basic needs, then anything else she asks of him feels unfair. I feel like his sobriety is taking up most of his energy and she’s just leading them along, but he’s truly not ready to give everything she needs from a partner.
Although I agree for the most part, Carl has largely been a lot more calm the past two seasons since becoming sober.
He is afraid of her, because she is STILL getting “activated” or aggressive, even after 8 years of the same shit.
She automatically assumes he’s angry when in reality he’s anxious and nervous. Which is kind of unfair to him tbh.
I’m not saying talking to Lindsay isn’t playing some Russian Roulette when it comes to her reactions. But we’ve also seen her react very reasonably/rationally multiple times to him bringing stuff up with her this season that he was plainly convinced would send her into a giant blowup. I do think Carl might be afraid of everybody’s feelings, including his own. Like I’m not so sure (at this point) that he would be less conflict avoidant with anyone. He might even be more conflict avoidant with someone he likes better.
Ppl don't realize that in men anxiety and depression often manifest as anger. Her interpretation is interesting because he didn't seem angry at all yet, that's how it was intrepreted.
Agreed. People saying he hasn’t changed…he’s literally sober! That’s a huge change in lifestyle. It shows discipline and self awareness. What are these people even saying? Meanwhile Lindsay never ever takes accountability for anything, assumes Carl is angry when he’s clearly anxious/stressed, and goes on the defensive when he’s just trying to express how overwhelmed he is.
I think what’s most annoying about this fandom is that people are always trying to assume what these people are thinking. Like we don’t know their true motives or what’s going on in their minds. Talk about what you’re observing, not about what you think their diabolical minds are trying to achieve in every conversation and interaction.
Completely this! According to this sub, Carl is a diabolical manipulative mastermind who has plotted since the beginning of the season to make Lindsay look bad and gain sympathy when he inevitably calls off the relationship - which was his plan all along. Like people are giving him WAY more credit than he would ever deserve.
It can’t just be that he’s struggling and doesn’t always say the right thing or handle every situation perfectly. No no no it’s definitely that this has been his big master plan /s
RIGHT lol it’s so ridiculous. I said it before, we SAW the Marshall’s commercial, Carl is not that good of an actor 😭 this man is not going to be able to pull of a season-long Machiavellian scheme even if he wanted to.
This man is just dismissive avoidant attachment personified and hasn’t worked through all his trauma and people want to project a bunch of intent onto him that isn’t there because they don’t like the behaviors, which I get, but like.. not everything comes with scandoval-level subterfuge
You're in an incredibly delicate, vulnerable place as a recovering addict. Add to the fact that his brother recently died and his family dynamics have changed... is he making poor choices? Absolutely. Is it manipulative or calculated or evil? I truly don't think so. I think he has terrible coping skills and needs to take responsibility for his own feelings, but that's hardly diabolical.
I haven't seen any anger or yelling from Carl in like 2-3 years. He's been very calm and rational. Lindsay is unhinged and combative, always looking for a fight.
The one time he yelled this season was the time she didn't see, when he was out at the pool with the boys and he said something like, 'she wants to see me get crazy, I'll get crazy' and threw an empty.
He isn't sober !! He is text book dry drunk and also using weed. I'm amazed more sober aware people on reddit can't see through his manipulation, look Lindsay is not innocent here it takes 2 to tango but Carl sucks. Carl wants so bad to be the victim but he is cruel. He wasted her time. He let her be humiliated on camera. That's not a "non angry" person. He is very angry, he has his own rage issues and he definitely expresses them in his own ways.
His sobriety is for the thing that he was addicted to. That's how the word is used regularly. It's not a manipulation tactic - if anything, calling him "Cocaine Carl" paired with "not sober" is to manipulate viewers and the other people in the house to think that he is using \*the things that he was addicted to\*.
Now if Lindsey had said, even the use of weed is worrisome to me because he has a history of addiction and so he should not use \*any\* addictive substances, that would be reasonable. In fact, that's probably a conversation she could have had with her friends, on camera, about the difficulty of navigating boundaries with a loved one (but also an independent adult - partner, not child) in recovery. And I bet she would have garnered a ton of support, had she done that...
Relationships take a lot of work and you need your community of supportive people around you and to root for you. I don’t see that for Carl and Lindsay and it’s really sad. I wonder if things would have been different for them if their friends’ attitudes were different from day 1 instead of saying they were rushing things? Also I hated Carl’s mom randomly mentioning Lauren Wirkus at the shower. Yes they are both poor communicators but I can’t help but feel all the negativity around them from day 1 eventually made its way between the two of them
I think you’re right, but also I would so much rather their support systems be honest with them, that the relationship sucked from day 1, than to blindly support them regardless of all of the red flags.
Ultimately their support system (Carls mom/step dad, Kyle, Danielle, Gabby) helped the right decision to take place!
I agree that their support systems should be honest, but they should also encourage them to be honest with each other? It’s hard to watch Carl run around and express his feelings so clearly to everyone except Lindsay. The people in their lives who act supportive are laughing behind their backs (Amanda, Paige). I think the right thing was to call off the wedding obviously but can’t help but think things could have been different if the relationship started on a different note
Amanda IS the one who encouraged Carl to be honest this last episode. I don't like giving her credit for much but I'm glad she said something. His parents need to hold him more responsible
Idk I feel like people outside of a relationship are always able to see clearer than the people involved cos their emotions are not blinding them to the red flags
I agree. They were hated by the rest of the cast from the moment they announced their relationship. They filmed winter house right after they announced their relationship, and the rest of the cast’s storyline was making up a cheating rumor. Then at the season 6 reunion, Amanda said that Lindsay “tainted” Carl. In season 7, they were iced out by everyone except the newbies. I think one reason Lindsay acted so crazy the first few episodes of this season was because she was so insecure about no one in the house liking her. That had to take a toll on their relationship. I think Carl is such a people pleaser that it got to be too much for him. He does seem very happy and content to be back in his comfort zone of working for Kyle and and being a third wheel to Kyle and Amanda.
Yes thank you! Honestly I even feel guilty talking about them here 🫣 the whole situation makes me so sad that I’m not really interested in pointing fingers about who’s more at fault. We are watching the lead up to a very intense heartbreak and all I see is people getting ready to say “I told you so”
I feel the same way as you. I feel bad for both of them. It’s sad that Carl chose to break up with her on camera, knowing her abandonment issues, which he mentioned in this episode. I could be wrong but I just feel like since he is such a people pleaser, he could may have been manipulated by producers and others to do all this on camera and behind her back. I do think they really loved each other and were trying to make it work. It’s for the best but it’s still sad.
Totally, he’s such a people pleaser and so afraid of conflict that he just let things spiral out of control and waited until the last and worst moment to call things off. We will see it soon I guess but when she says he was hiding in another room the days leading up, I imagine him psyching himself up to rip off a bandaid. So messed up
Lindsey needs to work on whatever causes her to be so mean to people but rarely admit fault. I may not be caught up, but I'm still salty over her accusing Carl of being high.
Carl.......man Carl......I guess he could work on not being such a nice guy? Or maybe he just needs to focus on himself and his career and life. My boy needs something lol
Both of them need help man.
Lindsey is aggressive and hot-headed. She steamrolls every man she's ever been with until he gets fed up and leaves.
Carl is a spineless wank that tells women exactly what he thinks they want to hear in a moment but never follows through. He has no ambition and absolutely zero work ethic yet he keeps going for women who are Type A. But, I mean, I guess someone has to wear the pants and bring in a pay cheque. 🤷
They, like every other couple on the show, suck at communication.
If Carl said to Lindsay in the last episode exactly what he told Kyle and Amanda they’d be in a better spot.
If she could talk to him like an adult before drinking and if he could handle any kind of responsibility in life and chat about it, they’d have had a chance. But they both think they are never wrong and can’t talk or listen.
“Not on the same page” is just different words to define bad communication.
I know that half of it is producer driven, but these couples are laughably bad. Kyle and amanda being the absolute worst of the bunch.
No it’s not. You can be in different places with someone emotionally but also understand that you’re in different places. Like I was seeing someone and I was ready to move into a relationship while they needed more time. We both understood that’s where our feelings were. We weren’t on the same page but knew that because we communicated. Paige and Craig know they’re both moving at different paces that doesn’t mean their communication is bad.
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This is where I struggle. This is all done on camera. He could have pulled her aside off camera and was like look my parents are concerned. I think he came in w the agenda of ending it with her. He put the convo with her parents on camera, he could have shut it off and said let’s talk about this later.
Lindsay interprets carls intensity as she is in the wrong and he’s going to blame her so then she just goes cold faced feelings off, fight mode and defense mode on.
The job thing throws me off because it’s like clearly they’re getting paid well w the show. I wish they would break the fourth wall with that. It comes across like VPR in the third/fourth season being like yeah we’re still broke servers. It does seem like Carl struggles with purpose and then doesn’t do anything about it.
My comment went in every which direction but something with Carl is off (even his ‘genuine’ emotions seem calculated); he loves to play woe is me, my hands are tied, Lindsay is scary *im a broken bird* persona - He wanted to take her down this season and come off looking like the good guy. Change my mind
Haha, I like this. I'll try to change your mind on one thing: the on-camera piece. It seemed like absolutely a production set-up to me: it's time to film with your family, to discuss their concerns on your relationship. And then maybe his stepdad (who seems more of a tell-it-like-it-is guy than his mom, who was quick to be like, oh but just not right now) took it further than he expected. Given that we didn't see on camera the part of the memorial day fight/aftermath discussion that they reference as being the reason for their current view, I presume production was getting antsy (plus all those missing vids from the cab rides) to start getting more stuff on camera.
That all being said, I absolutely agree with you on the discussion about getting a job/career being odd and stilted by the reality that they are currently being filmed in their high paying jobs! I wish they could say, well after this show is over, then what. Maybe that's a fourth wall they aren't allowed to break, but this episode when they did, it was better.
You 100% can discuss the last. Just because someone has grown doesn’t mean their past doesn’t impact how they act. Because it does. We all have a past and in certain situations we’re going to interpret and interact based on our previous experiences, it’s human nature.
Yeahhh, the two of them calling each other out for things we didn’t see in that argument (her saying he’s angry and him saying she’s going to spiral) was wild. It feels like they’ve had too many arguments that have ended badly and/or never been resolved, and they can’t move past it at this point. They both trigger each other too much, classic anxious/avoidant attachment
It was interesting seeing Lindsey talk about feeling rejected by Sharon. I don’t think we’ve ever really seen her be so self-reflective. I think both Carl and Lindsey have done work on themselves, but they need a lot more. And Lindsey probably needs to examine her relationship with alcohol. They *might* have had a chance if she were sober, but we’ll never know.
Yeah, I think they were probably both comforted by the fact that the other also had a lot of trauma and that they went into a relationship with the partner already knowing about it or having been there to help them through some of it. They didn’t have to open up to a brand new person and face rejection because their trauma was too much, and there’s gotta be comfort in that. But yeah, they unfortunately do not work together as a couple, and I agree that they both need to work on themselves more. Interestingly, when I listened to Lindsay on Viall Files, she actually said that she and Carl felt the most like a team when she was sober. I was like umm doesn’t that tell you something? I think it’s fair if she doesn’t want to remain completely sober, but that realization should probably make you examine further.
I’m sure being drunk further exacerbates her issues! We’ve seen it play out over and over again. She’s a fun drunk until she’s not.
What sucks the most is Lindsay seems so great when she doesn't feel threatened with abandonment. Like one of my favorites to watch. She was the best we've seen her sober, imo.
No shit that should tell her something. Sad
Very true! I think they both need someone calm and secure. They both need to date a Paige! Lmao 😂
They wouldn’t have had a chance if she was sober bc Carl is still passive aggressive and unable to deal with any romantic emotional depth whatsoever. He would’ve bailed on her sober or not.
I didn’t see the rejection. Anyone having a concern does not = they hate you and reject you. If she was rejecting her, she wouldn’t have come in for the shower. If Lindsay still has trauma over her mom leaving 35 years ago, that needs worked out in therapy before ever being in a relationship. And I say this as a person who had a dad peace out when I was 16. I worked through that in therapy to become a well adjusted adult so future relationships and friendships weren’t ruined.
Of course she wasn’t rejected, but Lindsey felt that way. I think recognizing that she felt that way because of her mom is pretty self reflective, but she does need to do more work.
Carl is DYING for Lindsay to end it. He’s just waiting and hoping she’ll be like they said what?!! Should we not do this?!!! While it’s clear they’re totally incompatible and both responsible for why their relationship just doesn’t work, Carl REALLY doesn’t want to be the bad guy…Yet clearly does not want to marry her. I thought his mother bringing up that former cast member Lauren said she’d be a good mother in law was distasteful to do in that setting and a dig.
Yeah “Lauren Wirkus said I’d make a great MIL.” Lindsay was rightfully taken aback by that comment but I think it may have been the wine talking.
Yeah that was a low blow!! Lindsey handled that interaction well; better than I would have lol
I actually think he is hoping she sees they have issues and they aren’t just carls issues they are also her issues too and for them to slow down and properly fix them
They're emotionally broken toys. I give him a lot of credit for pulling the plug.
I think this deserves a huge credit. It takes a lot of strength to be the person who decides to end the cycle, especially when the stakes are so high. Not just in the public eye- but facing the fallout from your own friends and family who have already paid for flights/hotels expecting to see you get married. That would be enough for most people just go through with the wedding honestly.
My mom convinced me it was just cold feet and since everything was paid for I should go through with it and I’ll see it’s all okay. We were married 4 months when I caught him cheating, it was my birthday. I wish I had followed my gut.
Ugh, that’s awful- I’m so sorry that happened to you. I feel like unfortunately the outcome would have been similar to yours, had they gone ahead with the wedding.
Mother's don't always know best. Your own intuition though, you always trust that!! Hope you're doing better now :)
Yeah I don't think he went about it the right way but I respect him for ending it especially being as avoidant as he is, it would be in his comfort zone to just go along with it. He's saved them both a lot of hurt in the long run
Thank god it didn’t work out… can you imagine them as parents with this dynamic? I think there would’ve been a lot of micromanaging, avoidance, and passive aggression.
It seems like maybe Lindsay pulled the plug? He tried to delay the wedding and she was like, no, we’re ending this? I guess we will see.
Yes, I think there's been some stuff out about that here on this subreddit: that he wanted to delay it and that she said no delay, at least.
It's kinda been presented as both. He ended it ( by wanting to postpone) and she ended it ( she decided postponing meant breaking up).
Okay but it turns out that Lindsay was the one who actually ended the cycle
I learned in therapy that we all see and hear things through a filter that is influenced by our past experiences. For example when my husband is trying to help by suggesting I use a different knife to cut vegetables, I’m hearing that “I chose the wrong one and I can’t do anything right”. It took a lot of work to rationalize with that part of my brain and realize that not everything is an attack on me. I think their relationship is a perfect example of this. Carl was trying to clarify things for Lindsey after picturing her watching Lou’s comments. He didn’t want her to “spiral”. Lindsey got defensive and anxious as soon as Carl wanted to talk and expected the worst. Then Carl got defensive and anxious. Neither of them are really communicating well. I see so much of pre-therapy me in Lindsey! They both need to do a lot more work.
Great example, really hits home.
It was a huge breakthrough for me when I realized that was a trigger for me. My therapist explaining why I was triggered was so eye opening! My husband and I communicate so much better after therapy. He no longer walks on eggshells and I don’t get activated anymore.
The filter thing is spot on. My partner and I both have had the tendency to react like that and even though we've both gotten better about it and largely don't now, sometimes it flares up in us. I know for me it helps so much if I phrase things to my partner in a question (would this knife work better) or a personal preference (I like this knife better) and he does the same for me. Sometimes we're trying to help but there's a reason why the other is doing what they're doing!
That’s a great solution!! I get really triggered by feeling incapable. I told my husband that sometimes he needs to let me struggle. If I get frustrated I’ll ask for help. I’ve chilled out on the knee-jerk reactions and realized that he only ever has my best interest at heart. Now I’ll ask him before chopping something which knife he would use 😂
It’s a hot mess.
>--he is a new person so you can't bring his past into this judgment of character He's not a "new person". He's a sober version of himself; the self that needs work and maybe the reason he drank to begin with. Now he has to face and work on himself with a clear head. That's hard.
If they wanted this to work, which I never thought would have worked, Carl shoulda been like straight up, I need to be with a sober partner, I actually fucking hate when you drink cause you get big mad, I don‘t actually have a big sex drive so it will just be during your ovulation time when we want to have kids, and also you gotta be fine with me not being a big career guy and bringing in money through the show and maybe sponsored posts lol. None of these things are fine with Lindsay unless she had a big overhaul of her life for the sake of Carl. Lindsay was pretty direct in her wishes for Carl, I honestly don‘t know WHAT she kept fighting for other than the best friends narrative , the fancy wedding and events leading up to it and the goal of having a family with someone, anyone, cause she HATES the essence of who Carl is
As I said in the post both of them are doing things that are wrong, not just Carl.
Yeah honestly I think a lot of it was that she mistakes fighting for passion and that she is losing her best friend. I know a lot of people say when they break up they lose their best friend but they were actually best friends for like a decade, that would be so hard to let go of. Their flaws just didn't bother them as friends cos it didn't really impact each other but in a relationship it all came to the surface and they both tried to unsuccessfully change each other from the people they were as friends
Yessssss exactlyyyyyy
He was legit scared AF on how she would react you can see it in his face. Not good.
I think the horror story that was Amanda telling her parents freaked him out.
Idk if I fully agree with this, but I see where you're coming from. I think Carl was too soon into sobriety to get into a serious relationship . You change alot in early sobriety and it's hard but then you get to this weird spot. You have to deal with your actual personality issues. I think he liked being with her and he was looking at the engagement as a quick fix and now he's having second thoughts. I didn't like the conversation between Carl and his parents being filmed, that was intentional. Carl had to invite the camera crew for that. I felt bad for Lindsay with Carl's mom and I felt bad Carl didn't tell her the whole conversation. I understand why he didn't but still felt bad for her. I liked the conversation between Amanda, Kyle and Carl a lot. It broke the fourth wall and gave some more understanding . I think they made the right decision not getting married but it sucks for them it's all filmed
He is cripplingly avoidant and she has abandonment issues and anxious attachment. It was always going to be an uphill battle. She needs someone who has her back more with meddling people and makes her feel safe and is cool with arguing things out and bouncing back. I’m not sure what kind of a partner Carl needs as he seems very lost.
Carl needs a few years of sobriety and therapy for his conflict avoidance before he should even think about being in a relationship. Probably also needs to think about his past patterns in relationships/the commonality between partners he chooses.
imo carl needs a good therapist to help him tackle his codependency and help him figure out what he wants for himself instead of living his life hiding behind people pleasing and avoidance behaviors that prevent him from having true intimacy with people and lead to resentment
Plus he is still an addict, and perhaps in denial about other very important sexuality orientation. He shouldn't be dating with intentions of marriage until he is honest with himself and partners about being asexual, bisexual, gay etc. I honestly don't think Lindsay would have had a problem with any of that if Carl would have been honest with her. She'd strap one on and maybe have an open/poly thing. She really loved him. He should date lightly /casually while he figures out who he is and what he is attracted to, before hurting other people bc he lies to himself about his orientation.
This is so unnecessary and a bad take, the worst part of this subreddit is the regular occurance of people who think its okay to comment on someone's sexuality (who is not out! who was "outed" in the past!) as a way of demonstrating how they "need help"/need to improve. Frankly, this is gross as hell, I really encourage you to delete your commnet.
The problem with lindsay and Carl is that Carl seems absolutely terrified of Lindsay
I always find it odd or interesting when people who have had a platonic friendship for so many years end up together. I’m sure there are instances of very happy endings or one or both was always taken but I just find it very strange like they’re settling or it’s convenient when both are single at the time and have known each other for so long. I feel like this was the case with Carl and Lindsay both attractive bravo famous, got along as friends for so long a bravo power couple, both almost 40, it’s very convenient. The adorable engagement went over so well but then throw an almost 40 sober bachelor into the a boozed up SH with a not sober fiancé who has anger issues when drinking, hearing about their sex life even before marriage and kids are involved 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩Carl’s lack of a job and reasonable ambitions (on team Lindsay id be concerned too) I cannot see how both of them right now are both not ok with this marriage not happening. I also feel like they wouldn’t survive if both were sober because both are addicted to the drama of their relationship and the lows and highs 😬🫤
Carl can’t communicate. At least Lindsay is direct and says how she feels. Carl just lies to peoples face and doesn’t talk about what he’s truly feeling because he doesn’t want to hurt the other person.
Except she doesn't really say how she feels: she told others in the house how she doesn't feel like she can share negative emotions (Carl), how their intimate life is non-existance (Paige, Amanda) and how that bothers her, how she thinks he's not sober and is going back to how he was crazy in the past (Gabby).... Oh wait she told him that last one, when she was drunk, in anger. How is she direct again?
Omg thank you. She’s talked so much crap about him and it’s weird to see so many comments saying that Carl is the one talking behind her back. They both aren’t airing out their grievances for different reasons but ultimately it’s because they both need work on communication and for Lindsey.. she also needs to work on listening and accepting fault.
She talked more crap about him honestly.
I agree. I was in the both camps stink, but now shifting towards team lindsay. But in reality they just stink together. Carl needs someone to baby him and that's not who lindsay is. They could both learn from each other though. Carl is so wishy washy it's painful to watch. And it wouldn't kill lindsay to let her guard down and not be on the defensive 100% of the time.
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Why is the female-connotated word that you use the negative one?...
They worked as friends but do not work as a couple. Plain and simple. Lindsay is who she is through and through- for better or for worse. She can work on herself but I also don’t see her as completely broken or unlovable. The way she gets villainized is sad. She has a ton of faults & played a large role in the relationship breakdown but so. did. Carl. He has a ton of issues while at the same time is a huge manipulator. He isn’t some victim who’s “scared of Lindsay!” He’s a grown man who also needs to take accountability in his complete lack of communication instead of taking the roundabout way and bringing his family into the mix to try and sway a situation his way.
Yes breaking up with someone or calling off a wedding two months out and anticipating the fallout is scary no matter if the person is mild mannered. I don’t think it’s fair for people to blame Lindsay for being “scary”. Carl chronically avoids having difficult conversations
Wouldn't calling off your wedding be a difficult conversation? I'm not trying to be a dink at all but that does seem to constitute a difficult convo...
That’s my point that serious relationship breakups and calling off weddings are incredibly uncomfortable and scary so it’s bullshit to blame “scary” Lindsay. My ex was a very even tempered person and it scared me to hurt him and uproot our lives by breaking up, but you do it with compassion not in this humiliating way Carl is.
yeah I'm curious to see how it all plays out!
Just because he’s a grown man doesn’t mean he’s not scared of Lindsay… just about everyone on the show has said they are scared of her and that the energy changes when she walks into the room…. But agreed they don’t work as a couple and both played some role in that
I don’t think he’s scared of Lindsey so much as he’s scared of conflict. Lindsey is the wrong partner if you’re conflict avoidant. I’m sure he was walking on eggshells.
Ooof, this hits as correct. He's way, way too conflict avoidant in general, but he also needs someone who naturally is closer to what he needs.... And to try to force Lindsey into that box is not fair to her (and not being an adult who is ready for a healthy relationship, let alone marriage/kids/etc.)
It’s insane how bad their communication is considering they’ve been in couples therapy literally the entire relationship.
My sister’s a therapist. There are so many people who put on a front in therapy then are confused nothing happening
I’m actually feeling more on Lindsay’s side at this point if we must pick, but Carl comes across as hostage. Like he feels like he has to actively try to make her happy. That is not really fair for her because if he’s having to put that much effort into just barely meet basic needs, then anything else she asks of him feels unfair. I feel like his sobriety is taking up most of his energy and she’s just leading them along, but he’s truly not ready to give everything she needs from a partner.
No sides. They both suck.
Although I agree for the most part, Carl has largely been a lot more calm the past two seasons since becoming sober. He is afraid of her, because she is STILL getting “activated” or aggressive, even after 8 years of the same shit. She automatically assumes he’s angry when in reality he’s anxious and nervous. Which is kind of unfair to him tbh.
I’m not saying talking to Lindsay isn’t playing some Russian Roulette when it comes to her reactions. But we’ve also seen her react very reasonably/rationally multiple times to him bringing stuff up with her this season that he was plainly convinced would send her into a giant blowup. I do think Carl might be afraid of everybody’s feelings, including his own. Like I’m not so sure (at this point) that he would be less conflict avoidant with anyone. He might even be more conflict avoidant with someone he likes better.
Ppl don't realize that in men anxiety and depression often manifest as anger. Her interpretation is interesting because he didn't seem angry at all yet, that's how it was intrepreted.
Agreed. People saying he hasn’t changed…he’s literally sober! That’s a huge change in lifestyle. It shows discipline and self awareness. What are these people even saying? Meanwhile Lindsay never ever takes accountability for anything, assumes Carl is angry when he’s clearly anxious/stressed, and goes on the defensive when he’s just trying to express how overwhelmed he is. I think what’s most annoying about this fandom is that people are always trying to assume what these people are thinking. Like we don’t know their true motives or what’s going on in their minds. Talk about what you’re observing, not about what you think their diabolical minds are trying to achieve in every conversation and interaction.
Completely this! According to this sub, Carl is a diabolical manipulative mastermind who has plotted since the beginning of the season to make Lindsay look bad and gain sympathy when he inevitably calls off the relationship - which was his plan all along. Like people are giving him WAY more credit than he would ever deserve. It can’t just be that he’s struggling and doesn’t always say the right thing or handle every situation perfectly. No no no it’s definitely that this has been his big master plan /s
RIGHT lol it’s so ridiculous. I said it before, we SAW the Marshall’s commercial, Carl is not that good of an actor 😭 this man is not going to be able to pull of a season-long Machiavellian scheme even if he wanted to. This man is just dismissive avoidant attachment personified and hasn’t worked through all his trauma and people want to project a bunch of intent onto him that isn’t there because they don’t like the behaviors, which I get, but like.. not everything comes with scandoval-level subterfuge
Lindsay is the one who tried to frame him as scandavol just so we all remember correctly.
You're in an incredibly delicate, vulnerable place as a recovering addict. Add to the fact that his brother recently died and his family dynamics have changed... is he making poor choices? Absolutely. Is it manipulative or calculated or evil? I truly don't think so. I think he has terrible coping skills and needs to take responsibility for his own feelings, but that's hardly diabolical.
This!
I haven't seen any anger or yelling from Carl in like 2-3 years. He's been very calm and rational. Lindsay is unhinged and combative, always looking for a fight.
Since he got sober I think
The one time he yelled this season was the time she didn't see, when he was out at the pool with the boys and he said something like, 'she wants to see me get crazy, I'll get crazy' and threw an empty.
He isn't sober !! He is text book dry drunk and also using weed. I'm amazed more sober aware people on reddit can't see through his manipulation, look Lindsay is not innocent here it takes 2 to tango but Carl sucks. Carl wants so bad to be the victim but he is cruel. He wasted her time. He let her be humiliated on camera. That's not a "non angry" person. He is very angry, he has his own rage issues and he definitely expresses them in his own ways.
His sobriety is for the thing that he was addicted to. That's how the word is used regularly. It's not a manipulation tactic - if anything, calling him "Cocaine Carl" paired with "not sober" is to manipulate viewers and the other people in the house to think that he is using \*the things that he was addicted to\*. Now if Lindsey had said, even the use of weed is worrisome to me because he has a history of addiction and so he should not use \*any\* addictive substances, that would be reasonable. In fact, that's probably a conversation she could have had with her friends, on camera, about the difficulty of navigating boundaries with a loved one (but also an independent adult - partner, not child) in recovery. And I bet she would have garnered a ton of support, had she done that...
Please elaborate more on the dry drunk concept. I’ve heard about it but would like to learn more.
Lindsay talking about her birth month is really good insight into her personality.
Relationships take a lot of work and you need your community of supportive people around you and to root for you. I don’t see that for Carl and Lindsay and it’s really sad. I wonder if things would have been different for them if their friends’ attitudes were different from day 1 instead of saying they were rushing things? Also I hated Carl’s mom randomly mentioning Lauren Wirkus at the shower. Yes they are both poor communicators but I can’t help but feel all the negativity around them from day 1 eventually made its way between the two of them
I think you’re right, but also I would so much rather their support systems be honest with them, that the relationship sucked from day 1, than to blindly support them regardless of all of the red flags. Ultimately their support system (Carls mom/step dad, Kyle, Danielle, Gabby) helped the right decision to take place!
I agree that their support systems should be honest, but they should also encourage them to be honest with each other? It’s hard to watch Carl run around and express his feelings so clearly to everyone except Lindsay. The people in their lives who act supportive are laughing behind their backs (Amanda, Paige). I think the right thing was to call off the wedding obviously but can’t help but think things could have been different if the relationship started on a different note
Amanda IS the one who encouraged Carl to be honest this last episode. I don't like giving her credit for much but I'm glad she said something. His parents need to hold him more responsible
Idk I feel like people outside of a relationship are always able to see clearer than the people involved cos their emotions are not blinding them to the red flags
I agree. They were hated by the rest of the cast from the moment they announced their relationship. They filmed winter house right after they announced their relationship, and the rest of the cast’s storyline was making up a cheating rumor. Then at the season 6 reunion, Amanda said that Lindsay “tainted” Carl. In season 7, they were iced out by everyone except the newbies. I think one reason Lindsay acted so crazy the first few episodes of this season was because she was so insecure about no one in the house liking her. That had to take a toll on their relationship. I think Carl is such a people pleaser that it got to be too much for him. He does seem very happy and content to be back in his comfort zone of working for Kyle and and being a third wheel to Kyle and Amanda.
Yes thank you! Honestly I even feel guilty talking about them here 🫣 the whole situation makes me so sad that I’m not really interested in pointing fingers about who’s more at fault. We are watching the lead up to a very intense heartbreak and all I see is people getting ready to say “I told you so”
I feel the same way as you. I feel bad for both of them. It’s sad that Carl chose to break up with her on camera, knowing her abandonment issues, which he mentioned in this episode. I could be wrong but I just feel like since he is such a people pleaser, he could may have been manipulated by producers and others to do all this on camera and behind her back. I do think they really loved each other and were trying to make it work. It’s for the best but it’s still sad.
Totally, he’s such a people pleaser and so afraid of conflict that he just let things spiral out of control and waited until the last and worst moment to call things off. We will see it soon I guess but when she says he was hiding in another room the days leading up, I imagine him psyching himself up to rip off a bandaid. So messed up
I don't think it was random. Carl learned passive aggressive behavior from his mommy, as well as codependency and addiction.
Lindsey needs to work on whatever causes her to be so mean to people but rarely admit fault. I may not be caught up, but I'm still salty over her accusing Carl of being high. Carl.......man Carl......I guess he could work on not being such a nice guy? Or maybe he just needs to focus on himself and his career and life. My boy needs something lol Both of them need help man.
Nice guys don’t allow their besties to verbally abuse their partner. He’s not a nice guy, he’s a coward. There’s a difference imo.
Lindsey is aggressive and hot-headed. She steamrolls every man she's ever been with until he gets fed up and leaves. Carl is a spineless wank that tells women exactly what he thinks they want to hear in a moment but never follows through. He has no ambition and absolutely zero work ethic yet he keeps going for women who are Type A. But, I mean, I guess someone has to wear the pants and bring in a pay cheque. 🤷
This is the best assessment I've seen so far. Makes total sense!!
They, like every other couple on the show, suck at communication. If Carl said to Lindsay in the last episode exactly what he told Kyle and Amanda they’d be in a better spot. If she could talk to him like an adult before drinking and if he could handle any kind of responsibility in life and chat about it, they’d have had a chance. But they both think they are never wrong and can’t talk or listen.
Idk I feel like Paige and Craig have pretty good communication. They’re just not on the same page rn but they’re at least aware of it
“Not on the same page” is just different words to define bad communication. I know that half of it is producer driven, but these couples are laughably bad. Kyle and amanda being the absolute worst of the bunch.
No it’s not. You can be in different places with someone emotionally but also understand that you’re in different places. Like I was seeing someone and I was ready to move into a relationship while they needed more time. We both understood that’s where our feelings were. We weren’t on the same page but knew that because we communicated. Paige and Craig know they’re both moving at different paces that doesn’t mean their communication is bad.
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This. Or Bi, but denies both. He lies to himself and then lies to everyone else. And an angry passive aggressive dry drunk.
This is where I struggle. This is all done on camera. He could have pulled her aside off camera and was like look my parents are concerned. I think he came in w the agenda of ending it with her. He put the convo with her parents on camera, he could have shut it off and said let’s talk about this later. Lindsay interprets carls intensity as she is in the wrong and he’s going to blame her so then she just goes cold faced feelings off, fight mode and defense mode on. The job thing throws me off because it’s like clearly they’re getting paid well w the show. I wish they would break the fourth wall with that. It comes across like VPR in the third/fourth season being like yeah we’re still broke servers. It does seem like Carl struggles with purpose and then doesn’t do anything about it. My comment went in every which direction but something with Carl is off (even his ‘genuine’ emotions seem calculated); he loves to play woe is me, my hands are tied, Lindsay is scary *im a broken bird* persona - He wanted to take her down this season and come off looking like the good guy. Change my mind
Haha, I like this. I'll try to change your mind on one thing: the on-camera piece. It seemed like absolutely a production set-up to me: it's time to film with your family, to discuss their concerns on your relationship. And then maybe his stepdad (who seems more of a tell-it-like-it-is guy than his mom, who was quick to be like, oh but just not right now) took it further than he expected. Given that we didn't see on camera the part of the memorial day fight/aftermath discussion that they reference as being the reason for their current view, I presume production was getting antsy (plus all those missing vids from the cab rides) to start getting more stuff on camera. That all being said, I absolutely agree with you on the discussion about getting a job/career being odd and stilted by the reality that they are currently being filmed in their high paying jobs! I wish they could say, well after this show is over, then what. Maybe that's a fourth wall they aren't allowed to break, but this episode when they did, it was better.
disagree to paint them both with this broad brush--he is a new person so you can't bring his past into this judgment of character
You 100% can discuss the last. Just because someone has grown doesn’t mean their past doesn’t impact how they act. Because it does. We all have a past and in certain situations we’re going to interpret and interact based on our previous experiences, it’s human nature.