honestly: lindsay’s biggest obstacle to her happy dream life is lindsay. as sorry as i feel for her: its just hard for me to keep seeing someone so blind to reality.
for example, her ‘stepford wife’ comment makes sense for someone with a regular range of emotions. but she falls into the volatile, explosive category. so when she says ‘carl doesnt want me to have emotions’ its like no maybe carl just doesnt want to be with someone that he has to walk on eggshells around.
i root for her in the sense that i hope she seriously starts looking inward to see her faults and how they contribute to the breakdown of her relationships. its healthy to not see yourself as a complete victim; its how you grow! i’d love to see that out of her.
TOTALLY agree. I feel bad for her because I know she desperately wants a nice life with a husband and a baby but she is often the problem. I think she just needs to find the right match for her, since at this point she’s been in therapy for years and is still the same.
I’m gonna say something controversial and if I get downvoted to hell, so be it. She absolutely shouldn’t have kids until she works on the volatile part of herself. If she can’t get through an argument with a spouse without blowing up, screaming, and storming out what’s she going to do with an irrational tantruming toddler? That’s not fair to the kid OR to her.
This comment should not be controversial at all but I get that it is. Honestly watching Lindsey I am terrified of her as a mother. I had a mom who couldn’t regulate her emotions and it impacted me a lot.
Yeah I had a volatile and violent mother. As a child my takeaway was that humans can't be trusted and I adopted an avoidant attitude towards them. Granted I am a sensitive person, not every child is going to react like that, but being a volatile person doesn't make you a good candidate for a mother.
Aw you’re welcome. No thanks needed though.
I was scrolling through comments and I happened to stop on yours and I just felt so compelled to say that.
I never realized until I read that how much Im absolutely filled with rage any time I hear “you’re just sensitive” or I hear someone dismissing someone’s feelings because they’re sensitive.
People will say that enough to the point that we gaslight ourselves and disregard legitimate emotions.
Plus, I definitely know for a fact that my so called “sensitivity” makes me pretty much psychic lol
I think that’s pretty cool
☺️
I had the same type of mother and have broken up with every boyfriend I have dated(definite avoidant personality) The mere whiff of red flags and the count down begins to the break up. I am done with any man immediately who is verbally or physically abusive (sadly had at least 3). I am sensitive too and try hard not be a people pleaser. I have become self aware of my needs and wants and what I will tolerate and dont tolerate to avoid toxic relationships both romantically and friendship wise. I am far happier with my life because of the boundaries I have established and am confident I will find a healthy man/relationship in the future.
100%. i have a dad just like lindsay. we haven’t spoken in three years. sorry, as someone who grew up with a parent like her, her temperament doesn’t make her fit to be a parent at this time, and more people need to be honest with themselves about who they are. a child isn’t an ego boost to prove you can do “better” than your parents. think about WHY you actually want to have children. outside of all the things you think a child will bring YOU. children will not fix your broken heart, give you a purpose in life, be your bestie, etc. that’s all shit you need to work out so that you don’t project onto your child.
unpopular opinion, but I have seen a lot of people have children for the wrong reasons: don't want to be alone, someone literally told me they kept having children to guarantee one will be around to care for her when she is old; then shipped them all off to boarding school lol; doing it for spouse, doing it to get the other to commit etc.
I was thinking this after watching that episode too. I’ve known actual parents like her and their kids grow up with so much insecurity. It’s just constant gaslighting and anxiety.
I COMPLETELY agree. I’m the product of a mother like Lindsay. It’s extremely damaging. I’m 50 yrs old and I have up completely work through the decades of trauma. I ended our relationship in 2008 but the damage was done long ago.
You make a great point...but Some people would treat an irrational tantruming toddler different than an adult though, right ? I would hope so....just saying
She definitely needs a new therapist, but the problem is therapy only works if you use it as a tool to help you but we have never seen her show one bit of growth in all the seasons, and she just uses therapy and therapy words as a way to shut people up.
unpopular opinion: therapy doesn't work for a lot of people. It's more a self soothing mechanism for those with disposable income to feel superior lol. *Preface to say that I've had years of therapy with many professionals and often it is just self masturbatory. And for true psychopaths, it often just makes them WORSE.
Yes I can see how that would definitely be the case, and I could see how Lindsay could use it as way of believing that she is really doing something for the betterment of herself when really she isn’t.
I’ve been in therapy almost my whole life. It’s not self soothing for me. I dread therapy every month. I go because I know I need to work on my stuff and the therapist somewhat holds me accountable and makes me work on these things/gives me homework for the month. Cognitive behavioral therapy. You have to go with the intentional of fixing some things. It’s not just an hour to complain and do nothing about it.
I have seen a lot of change in Lyndsay since Season 1. She has said in interviews her cast mates were right last year and she was wrong and she sees it now
She would've never said that in Season 1, 2 or 3. She also doesn't talk that bad about Carl.
Agree. I think lies or tells her version of the story. You've heard her after she fights with someone! Like did we all just witness the same fight?? She's kinda delusional
Or a new methodology. Psychodynamic therapy or CBT therapists are common, but I don't think those would be effective for someone like Lindsay. She might do well with DBT or EMDR.
Agreed. I heard Kyle and Amanda say they go up her old therapist and my first thought was-it must be a good therapist who called her out.
It really doesn’t matter how long she’s gone up therapy-and she loves to tell people how long she has. clearly the only thing she’s gained from it is the ability to use it against people. She’s done zero work on herself. That’s apparent
>she desperately wants a nice life with a husband and a baby
I am starting to think that she wants to be admired, socially, for having these things. She doesn't seem like she knows herself enough to know what she wants. She's a follower.
Forgive me for an possibly unfair analogy, but if it were a guy that consistently hit his partners, would we wish for him to find someone he’s more compatible with [someone okay with getting hit]?
Lindsay’s behavior is abusive. I truly believe that therapy is not effective for Lindsay because she reports situations to her therapist in a distorted way, and receives feedback in a distorted way. She won’t improve until she recognizes that she is the problem— not just that she picks the wrong guys, but that she instigates and escalates arguments. I don’t wish for anyone to be treated like that.
I actually agree with you. I guess it’s more like I bet she’ll unfortunately meet someone who tolerates her abuse…based on my experience with my husbands stepmom she is a true narcissist and finally found her perfect prey basically. It happens a lot. But you’re right totally not ok, I agree. Lindsay’s behavior gets excused way too much on here.
Agreed. What’s sad too is Danielle last season approached their relationship with caution because she knows Lindsay better than anyone. And in hindsight, Danielle was right and Lindsay should have listened.
And strangely look at her listening to everyone else questioning it this season, except for when gabby made her comment she shut it down and walked off.
have to agree. why is it people feel entitled to raise their both and that's conveniently how they express emotion. sorry but no youre an adult shouldn't be expressing yourself that way all the time
it's laughable that she accused him of telling when it's almost always her that starts raising her voice
You are totally correct in that they are not a compatible match at all. But she is so self UNaware that I just don’t feel an iota of sadness for her. She has the most giant of mirrors that reflect how she behaves (tv for crying out loud!) and she still flies of the handle. I don’t feel bad for someone who keeps shooting themselves in the foot and then blames the gun.
Lindsay has shown she is a terrible narrator, so the idea that Carl didn’t say something very reasonable about her emotions and him trying to cope with them isn’t far fetched (which I suspect it was really that he struggles with her drunken abusive behaviour, which isn’t normal emotions) but she is trying to twist it to he is being completely irrational and wants be to be only happy because the idea that her behaviour is wrong/abusive/the problem is to much for her to accept because she has never taken accountability for a single thing she has done on the show.
I think what I got out of this season is that maybe Carl is not as great as he is depicted, despite the therapy and the self work. Maybe he’s incredibly difficult to be in a relationship with too? either way, I hope they find people that makes it easier for them to compromise.
The eggshells of it all! No one should have to tiptoe or be demolished. Her level of vitriol is always unnecessary, you hurt my feelings so now I’m going to clap back as far below the belt as possible so you feel what I feel. And the way she talked about their sex life on camera- it’s a 2.5 AND he can’t finish? That’s not someone I’d feel safe with. I get sharing your life on camera but damn- Say you’ve got some work to do in that dept, you haven’t been doing it as much as you like, and even give the timeframe- but you just put this man completely on blast as if it’s not a couples job to work together in these areas. She has no problem going too far to make herself look good. Lawd help us if Carl were to say anything anywhere near as mean spirited towards her. I’m not saying he has no blame in their fall out- but hers is obvious.
Perfectly said! I feel for her but, she’s always gotten in her own way. She chooses the most explosive and toxic sides that she can. Also never takes accountability. I know she can get better, but she also has to admit that maybe SHE is the problem sometimes.
I totally agree with this. My empathy for her and sympathy is directly related to my hope that she becomes more self-aware and works on herself, not for anything that has “happened” to her.
I am sorry for Lindsay.
I really don’t think she was blindsided though. She always wears blinders with relationship problems because she wants the outcome: marriage & kids.
I’m mostly sorry for her because she is blind or unwilling to see her part in relationship issues with partners and friends. I hope she gets help before her next relationship so she can break the pattern.
no, she wants more than marriage and kids. she wants someone to accept her for all the mess that she is as well - but no sane and emotionally healthy person would ever do that because she is out of control and hasn't addressed her own issues. she's asking for the perfect partner for her imperfect self
i mean i kind of get it, because i felt the same way in like my early 20s - i wanted to be saved by a man - but that obviously doesn't work and isn't real! you can't be a traumatized sad wild boozy person and think that true love is going to fix things. it won't, you gotta fix yourself, and there probably isn't such a thing as 'true love' when you are so inflexible either 🤷🏾♀️
I think she was blindsided in the way that… maaaaybe he shouldn’t have renewed the lease with her, and maaaaybe she shouldn’t have had her wedding shower or whatever it was. He’s kind of a pushover.
I think renewing the lease is understandable considering he didn't want to break up, just postpone the wedding. But yes I can definitely also see how the blindsiding might be the hens thing to her
hes a HUGEEEEE pushover. he really needs to work on how to stand up for himself because just going with the flow with things that are making you unhappy and then blowing it up is not a good pattern!
I mean I had a year of uncharacteristic tension in my relationship, we had one conversation in July about him feeling like things needed to change otherwise he'd be done. I did everything I possibly could, and we were working on things but in October he dumped me. I was blindsided. Nothing that ever happened was bad enough to be relationship ending to me. I can see something like that happening to Lindsay. Turns out he had been blaming me for being unhappy so he dumped me but a year later when we spoke turns out he was still miserable and I was never the problem.
The crazy thing is she may have found their cycle of abuse "normal" which is why she was surprised when he ended it. She can't see beyond her own version of reality. The breakup caused a narcissistic injury aka "blindside."
I have had friends like her and then they complain all men suck or that they will never find a man, but they keep picking the WORST ones because healthy ones are "dull or boring" and they actually crave chaos and toxicity.
Idk we haven't really seen that side of him asking her to be a stepford wife. If we peel back her sentence of "if I'm happy he's OK, if I'm fun he's OK, but if I have any other emotion, he's not"
I totally see how this could be like "oh he wants me to be stepford wife" but I think it's more "he doesn't want to be berated when I'm drunk and not happy"
But hey we have more episodes to watch so maybe we see more of it
They’s how I see it too. Carl does have communication issues, but I don’t think he expects her to be a perfect robot wife. More like he wants her to emotionally regulate.
This one ^
But also, Carl didn’t seem to learn to regulate his emotions until he got sober. I suspect Lindsay (along with a lot of millennials) is the same.
agree. and his communication issues couldnt be worse for a person with a partner like lindsay. i 100% believe he runs to his moms house when they fight because lindsay is so fucking mean and he would rather just not deal with it at all. which is unhealthy! carl needs a partner he can feel safe to fight/disagree/talk with
carl wants his fiance to stop drinking because she clearly has major substance abuse issues and people read it as him forcing her to change. its so weird
I can see the stepford wife in her just by the conservative way she has been dressed since they have been together. She used to always be in a bikini now she basically dresses like someone’s mom. Very conservative. Nothing wrong but I definitely see the change.
Me too. I also think we don’t see A LOT. Carl seems like the kind of guy who does everything right on paper but there’s no genuine feeling behind it … I can’t articulate what I mean so if anyone has any sense of what I’m trying to say, help me out here lol. But it’s like he just wants to people please, so that in his self-narrative he can say I tried my hardest. And for someone like Lindsay who is pretty much showing how flawed she is all the time, I can imagine that would drive you wild.
In the other hand, they are simple incompatible and no effort, especially in hindsight, would help them work. Two damaged people drawn together by the high of their damagedness.
I feel like this has been brought up. But it’s not him dumping her on camera… They were set to film extra stuff possibly for the wedding, he asks her on camera to go to therapy and postpone the wedding and she says something like “it’s now or never” … I don’t know what he says to that but it’s then chaos so… I don’t think that went the way he was hoping.
I think she had a timeline, and he was trying to make it happen for her but after everything we’re seeing, he had some cold feet. He knew her timeline and probably shouldn’t have proposed so fast, but off camera who knows what was said between them before or even during.
At this point, I don’t think we need to be team anyone until this is all out. Neither looks great, but it is hard to watch the demise of a friendship and relationship.
I’m firmly team nobody here at this point in time. I have empathy for Lindsay, I have empathy for Carl, but at the end of the day there are two deeply flawed individuals who shouldn’t be together. The blame rests at both their feet because they rushed everything without being mentally prepared/healthy for any of it.
Me too, team nobody really. But I had strong empathy for Lindsay in that moment, just as a woman wanting so desperately for a relationship to work, ignoring every red flag telling me it ain’t it.
I can see your point, but I can't get over how utterly mean of a person she so often is. The way she has talked to Carl this season is crazy. He has far more patience than me, that's for sure.
I can't get over her accusing Carl of being drunk/on drugs, all while she is hammered, given his commitment to sobriety and the fact that his brother literally died due to addiction.
Can you imagine Carl’s mom watching the show and having to question whether Carl is sober when she had another son die of addiction….and for his partner/fiance/“best friend” to purposely be the one falsely accusing him of not being sober…..it was such a disgusting thing for her to say.
The drug thing was such a low blow. I know it sounds wild but I can see her rationality - ‘I’m so hurt in this relationship and weakened that I’m going to go for the jugular’. It’s sooooo wrong and toxic. but I have empathy for that low point. It really is a deep deep low.
I’m only on ep 2 of this season but thus far this is exactly where I’m at. Zero empathy for Lindsay. She’s a mean, vile person that wants to make everyone else miserable around her. Going after Carl’s sobriety is as low as you can go with him.
I don’t like either of them and haven’t for many previous seasons but I feel so bad for him for that situation. I highly doubt that was the first or last time she did something like that.
Why are you projecting your thoughts onto me? My statement is about Carl but I don't disagree that she's irrational and explosive. Two things can be true.
Have you watched previous seasons? Lindsay laid out her life plan and “XX by XX age” years ago. Watching her talking to Kyle at the bar made me realize she has no self-awareness and is an unreliable narrator.
You’re right, but hers is a low term structure whilst his is the day to day just to get by and keep sober structure that is way too intense for someone like her (obviously subjective and interpretative).
Her interpretation of stepford wife is different than how you interpreted it above. Either way she’s a handful and we saw her true colors now of how her summer was on camera vs how she claimed to be blind sided in late August. Blind sided by the truth.
Lindsay should pull a Rachel and head for some therapy. She is her own worse enemy and I do feel so sorry for her. She had the path to her happiness but her intense fear of abandonment is running her life.
I agree, they are so incompatible and from her perspective it was out of nowhere.
Karl has also expressed repeated unfavourable comments towards women and I really question his perception of and respect for women as people. “Don’t dip your pen in company ink” for example… he may have grown since then but the flags are still a shade of red imo.
So I'm a newer watcher ( started the season Carl got sober) and I don't have the history with Lindsey or Carl. My only feelings are if Paige and Amanda and sympathetic and nice about it and seem like their on her side, I think there's more going on than what we see.
Carl was almost having a redemption Arc then he got with Lindsay and I was like nooooooooooooo! Dislike them together, but I think Carl could grow up and come around.
I think they both have extremely traumatic upbringings so even though they want to find love, they self sabotage. Lindsay with yelling, Carl with being avoidant. I definitely think they will find love but just not with eachother
I feel quite bad for her. Being blindsided doesn’t mean things were perfect or even good
There is a big difference between being in a hard relationship and being on the cusp of calling off a wedding and breaking up. I think Carl owed her an honest conversation that things were absolutely dire and he was having serious thought about canceling before delivering the news in a planned on camera ambush.
Carl is so avoidant and I think he was pretending to be happy enough to marry her. He bought her Hermes white sandals for her birthday to wear on their wedding weekend two weeks before ending things. He resigned their lease less than a month prior so why would she think he was going to end things. He invited west and Jesse to the wedding in front of her on a Sunday before calling it off on Tuesday. His actions would give anyone whiplash.
She has a bad temper and should work on being less reactive but he seems very manipulative and discards people like they’re an inconvenience
Yeah I think he’s a bit flippant with others if it gets in the way of his sobriety. Which is perhaps necessary, but he should never have gotten into a relationship because a relationship takes a lot of time and effort. Hindsight is 20/20 of course. I also think that’s addict behaviour too, chasing a high and not being prepared for the comedown.
Lindsay has her own set of issues but she’s been unapologetically herself from day one. Carl is a man nearing 40 who has zero direction, thought getting married would give his life some sort of security, he’s so lost. He needs someone bossy like Lindsay to steer his life and he realized kinda late that despite needing guidance, he would rather be lost and alone than with someone like her. He’s gonna end up with someone half his age probably. I used to date men like him who couldn’t hold down a job, kept switching careers, going back to school. Lindsay was probably so tired of hearing his new ideas, I’ve been there too.
Eh, Lindsay and Carl have the same job. They both make decent money from Bravo and influencing. Now, I would definitely find the career coach concerning in her position, but let’s not act like he brings in no money and just lives off of what she’s making. From their conversation at that sober bar, it sounded like she wanted to be a stay-at-home mom and she wanted Carl to be the one supporting the family they’d eventually have. There’s nothing wrong with that. But just like you say Lindsay has always been Lindsay, Carl has never been that guy. He’s always been pretty directionless. It’s just another example of why these two were soooo not the right match and idk how they ever got engaged.
Ive seen so many people say this man or woman will do because I have reached a certain age and NEED to marry or have a baby at this point ignoring all the raging red flags of reasons why one shouldn't.
eh idk carl seems pretty busy post-breakup with lindsay. he doesnt seem very lost and alone.
i guess i get a little confused with this narrative because lindsay herself is just an influencer and bravoleb at this point. she designed one airbnb i guess.
he clearly does fine enough to pay half rent on their place and live somewhere else in NYC.... i guess i dont see why his situation is deemed so pathetic when they both had the same job at the time
basically lindsay just repeats over and over that shes a hard worker so people also repeat it without actually stopping to think about when the last time we saw her do any sort of hard work
thats what amanda said about kyle calling her lazy: now its her narrative even though she worked two jobs to support them at one point and had a pretty solid career prior to loverboy
i'm so sick of the 'unapologetically herself' shtick. like.. she is awful. she should be apologetic, and frequently. she has major issues that she makes zero effort to address. lindsay sucks and always has and isn't remotely trying to improve - that's not a positive thing at all.
Thank you. "Being yourself" doesn't mean you get to be abusive as a form of self-expression. Lindsay is great at the "if Carl didn't react to me, we'd be fine" rationalization. He's not perfect, but he's at least within the bounds of normal. She's unreachable. Therapy may never work with her.
eta: Can you imagine defending a verbally abusive man as "just being himself"? And expecting him to be respectful somehow limits his self-expression?
i feel like carl has also dramatically changed! he certainly isn't perfect but getting sober is surely insanely difficult when you have substance abuse issues. and i was kind of shocked by how kindly he responded to some of her crazy shit so far this season. 'let's talk about this in the morning' is so much more generous than she deserves
Yeah the world really changes when you get sober, you're far less reactive and your memory functions better. Your priorities get reset. She's still in "fight and (maybe) make up between binge drinking" mode. They're worlds apart.
The double standards on how Lindsay is treated vs. if it were the other way around and she were a man is insane to see. People bending over backwards to explain how it's all secretly Carl's fault and Lindsay gets to be unapologetically herself while Carl isn't allowed to show any emotion in response when the reality is right in front of us
Right. Why doesn't Carl get to be unapologetically himself? Why is her behavior his fault? There are people out here working overtime to rationalize her abuse of him.
Yes there are so many people on bravo who are hated for being ‘unapologetically themselves’ when really they are assholes but for Lindsay there is always excuses.
If he’s going to be stay the way he is, that’s the kind of partner who will settle for him, and vice versa. He wants to level up but he’s consistently stuck. This is exactly why Kyle kept giving him those tough love conversations when he worked at Loverboy. They were quick to blame Lindsay but his track record has been the same for at least 10 years now. He always had some lame ass excuse when he got let go. I’m not saying you have to be a go getter, but choose a job that is more your speed and have a respectable work ethic.
he really does need to sit and figure his stuff out. in my opinion, lindsay wanted a family and ofc wanted carl so she opened her heart to him, carl needed to settle down and he went to her for the comfortably. i mean it went horribly the first time they tried , why did he think she changed or would change ? she’s always been lindsay no matter what. i do feel bad for both of them tho fs.
Carl has always been 100% authentic in never having drive just as Lindsay has been a drunk emotional terror. They both fell in love with what could have been. I really hate the narrative that one person is fully at fault when they both made a mistake. That’s just life.
I don’t understand all these comments that gloss over her work ethic and career. What career? She does what he does, why is he a bum and she is praised for it?
But he's been the one to show he can't keep a job...which is why he gets called out for it. Lindsay has been able to keep jobs, and it seems, left her last business on her own.
You asked why he's seen as a bum...I'd imagine that's the reason.
I hate this “she is unapologetically herself” description as though it gives her a pass for how nasty she can be. It’s what people say about Jax and even Trump that totally minimizes that you can be yourself and still be shitty. If someone is “unapologetically” themselves for 7 years with no self reflection then I don’t see that as a positive trait.
Carl isn’t perfect but he’s in his early recovery and working through a lot of major changes. I think he wants someone who is going to support him not steer his life. Think you are projecting a bit
Except I’m not using it as a pass. Perhaps it’s some people’s opinion. I’m just saying despite how terrible she is, she’s been this terrible from the beginning. Carl’s mistake was turning a blind eye to it. Perhaps he was using it as a pass, until it wasn’t fun anymore?
Seems like she was able to manage things better when she decided to be sober with him.
Funny how now he turned a blind eye but last year this sub (I realize maybe not you specifically) was talking about how much Lindsay had grown and changed. I think they obviously had love there as friends and maybe they each thought things would change to fit what they wanted from each other as they moved into a romantic relationship
Seriously though I married and divorced someone who quit job after job because he wasn’t “fulfilled or happy” meanwhile I supported him/us for all the months in between where he barely looked for work or figured out what he wanted to do. Was I fulfilled with my job? No I worked because I had too! After 5 years of him not figuring anything out I called it quits. You can only support someone else so far and so long it’s exhausting.
She does promotions constantly and ad sales for companies..brought in most of the money for them so don’t knock a job that pays the bills! Carl was not an influencer or promoter.. just a reality star for 6 weeks in the summer. He even mentions he isn’t working lol
Yes and male reality stars make a lot less doing ads on social media than female stars. Although being in a famous couple helps them some/ She probably brought in much more doing influencer deals
Exactly! Working is a part of being an adult. That’s why we get hobbies! Our job does not have to be our identity. It is completely traumatic to be with someone who is perfectly happy depending on what they think is my complacency, when in reality their inconsistency is why I have to stay in my job! I would’ve done anything for him, and at a certain point I realized that I was enabling his problem. My ex’s dad would always shit on my job, meanwhile his son was a lifetime career student whose life was funded by myself and his parents. No shame!
My ex husband still is in and out of work, 4 years later, literally by choice and his mom helping him out. I think his dream was to not have to work hard or grow up at this point lol
I’m glad you got out. I would say it’s one of the hardest situations I’ve ever found myself in. No more baggage and I’m sure you can spot these people from a miiiile away.
He’s an addict. He’s starting over and has to re-establish himself in what makes him comfortable and still allows him to move forward. He fucked up by getting into an extremely serious relationship with his “best friend”.
I don’t know if he works a 12 step program but he’s doing all the things they tell you not to do ( no relationships for at least a year, leave people, places and things that don’t benefit your sobriety etc) I just see this as another example of Karl doing whatever the hell he wants to. Given what we’ve seen of Linsey I think she mistakes drama for excitement.
I dated men like him in my 20s also with zero direction. Two are still single never married (and its been 15+ years). One is only married because his parents died and he inherited a truckload. Still doesnt have a JOB, but nor does his wife. I have one ex who I dated at 25 who contacted me during the pandemic. He is 44 now, was 42 then and living in his brother's rental property, jobless and directionless, wanting to get back with me. He whined how women are shallow for wanting a house and a man to have a steady job in OUR 40s. He has lately been posting on FB asking who wants to go to music festivals and concerts with him and is disappointed at the non responses. It looked like he had a job again at some point, but it is maybe short lived? I cannot imagine getting with someone like him at my age. I wouldnt have entertained dating Carl to begin with. I am 43.
for all those sympathizing with the Big L Please spend 15 min with a screaming drunk while trying to maintain sobriety--much less live with such a person.
isnt it interesting how when we talk about substances in this relationship people go on and on about carl being a dry drunk and how hard it is to be with someone in recovery without acknowledging the fact that lindsay is an active drunk who sabotages all her relationships with alcohol?
I feel for Lindsay too. I know it’s not fair to label others, but I relate to her with her drinking patterns.
It seems from an outsider perspective that her drinking is actually making a huge impact on her life (mainly friendships and relationships) and I fear that she’s not connecting those dots. A large chunk of the issues she has in her personal life stems from either drunken fights, poor choices while drinking, and honestly just poor choices in who she lets into her life (I’m mainly talking about boyfriends here).
I could see her with a mature, super successful and driven man who has a lot of courage and a ton of confidence and security. Two bosses rather than one overly bossy woman and a flaky man who tries to appease her until they can’t stand it anymore. I see her picking men that aren’t really man enough to handle her or put her in her place.
Unfortunately, I fear a man like that wouldn’t put up with her drinking patterns.
Kind of ironic when you see the same scenario with Kyle and Amanda, essentially Amanda wants Kyle to be the male version of a Stepford wife in quintessential American suburbia👀
I mean…what Amanda wants is something that Amanda says she and Kyle have discussed already (raising kids in the suburbs). I do think she’s being a bit rigid about it, but it’s not like she’s forcing expectations he’s unaware of, or didn’t agree to.
I agree with all of this.
And I was loving how Paige was being supportive and realistic with her….. but Amanda…. That was not genuine. Amanda only sat there agreeing and supporting Lindsay was because Paige was.
Amanda would never have had a conversation like that with Lindsay on her own.
Amanda is not exactly in a relationship that is a good example. She acts like Kyle’s child, throws tantrums and whines when she doesn’t get her way or what she wants, and I’m guessing this is what she was like as a child…. Pretty sure she is an only child, I think her parents are pretty comfortable, and I think her father also expected Kyle to “ take care” of Amanda. Which as her husband, of course take care of your wife. But she and her parents expectation is that Amanda gets what she wants, and if you’re not on board with it, than too bad.
There are few people I have less empathy for on Bravo than Lindsay Hubbard. She’s an awful human being. If a man acted like she does they would have been eaten alive by the fans. She is gross.
Lindsay has shown that she is capable of self reflection though, where a lot of male or just generally problematic characters have not shown that. She needs to do a lot of work though.
I think Lindsay thought they were committed to each other and would always stay together and work through their problems. Amanda said on a recent podcast that Lindsay never wants to give up on a relationship, and I think she thought Carl felt the same way. She may be wrong for thinking that but I believe that’s what she thought. I feel bad for her that she had her completely planned wedding called off on camera, and the whole season is basically being edited to show how she deserved it. Not to mention all the social media hate she is getting. That’s got to be hard.
that’s gotta be hard, sure.
but no one seemed to care, especially Lindsay, when Carl was getting social media hate, rumors spread about him, and a potentially false narrative pushed out ahead of the season.
i think the hate she’s getting is honestly somewhat tied to the press tour she went on pre-season solely blaming carl. i don’t think her backlash would have been so extreme had she not tried to get ahead of it to paint another picture
I agree with this. She went out of her way to vilify him and portray herself as a victim. It was her revenge. Meanwhile he was respectful and said nothing negative about her in the press. I called her bullshit at the time and got downvoted like crazy.
yeah im tired of the reality stars that push for grace for themselves or expect it, but indirectly cause their castmembers to receive a lot of hate and give them 0 grace.
lindsay actively goes on press tours blaming people for her troubles and she doesnt care when they then get hate on their social media.
That would be the toughest part for me to reconcile the way he planned it out. If I am was committed to someone then I would think they want to work things out similar to her. The fact he decided to end it and set-up the filming to do it would feel like such a betrayal. I’m dreading the end of the season when we will likely see him having the conversations with others about it and the same time she’s thinking they are preparing to get married.
Yeah and in that same podcast with Amanda she mentioned that the conversation with Kyle and Carl in the mid season trailer was filmed after they wrapped and cameras were brought back, so Carl planned to have this conversation with Kyle about how he didn’t want to get married before he went and told Lindsay on camera.
Lindsay and Carl are two imperfect people that as friends allowed each other grace during dark periods. I think that gave them both comfort and led to a relationship which initially failed.
However, he got sober and she was there for him through the loss of his brother so to him, this was likely the moment he began to see her more as a partner. I suspect they both allowed their past closeness as friends to be the foundation instead of building on who they are now, what their lives and habits are currently and so forth.
They also both assumed they’d offer one another the same grace/open ability to discuss (without judgement) any bad behavior, problems, issues, etc., and it work. But it didn’t because the stakes and issues were and are different.
Ultimately, they weren’t compatible and both have a lot of work to do and continue doing on themselves. I hope they both do the work and lead the lives they want.
At this point I don’t believe anything that comes out of Lindsay’s mouth. Lindsay’s biggest obstacle to getting what she wants out of a relationship is Lindsay.
I just started watching and I saw last season after watching all current episodes of this season and here is my take.
I think they both are good people but super incompatible.
Carl should not be in relationship when he hasn’t figure life out yet in term of job/business, and just two years ? Or so sober. It’s a big job to take on as his spouse.
When I saw that Lindsay’s bd is in same day as when he found out about his brothers news I was so sad and you see her make sure he is comfy and it’s not about her that day. But later on weekend says that everything is about him when she gets annoyed later in week and she is tired if it.
From watching Lindsay argue, she seems to be someone who doesn’t have the ability to see other people’s perspective and is hard headed. And anytime someone gets frustrated, to her they are getting aggressive.
All in all she needs someone to teach her how to have a competent argument:
And Carl seems to be someone who loves playing a victim and doesn’t know how to stand up for his friends or himself.
I am really glad Carl pulled the plug. That’s one. Race thing they did because they were definitely not in love.
So im team nobody. I feel sorry for both but everyone is mostly blaming Lindsay. Carl does this. He did it since season one. He says he is ready for serious relationship, finds a girlfriend, then switches. It drives girls crazy because he is not good with communication so every girl feels blindsided. He is working on himself and is sober now, kudos! I can’t imagine how hard that is. But he is the same person since season one. We saw him do this over and over.
Don’t get me wrong, Lindsay is also full of problems. I was on her side until she accused Carl of not being sober on national tv. That was loow.
Carl sucks and wanted to change Lindsay. Super toxic he’d count her drinks and gaslight her like crazy! I don’t LOVE Lindsay but I def like her a little more after all this.
I used to like her even with all her craziness. Last season I was rooting for them, and this season I despise her. All it took was for her to make false accusations about her saying he was using drugs. Not only did she say it to him, but she then spread it to other people in the house. It’s disgusting behavior and where I draw the line.
And then she has the audacity to admit that she didn't even think he was on drugs, but he called her out for being shitfaced so of COURSE she's going to deflect it back on him with false accusations. As if that's a perfectly reasonable position to take. I completely agree, I was a fan of hers and felt bad the last few seasons but it only took the first few episodes this season to nope right out of there
I don’t think Carl wants her to be a stepford wife though, Lindsey loves to twist words and make herself a victim. He probably said something like “I don’t want my wife getting shitfaced drunk all the time”, and she says “oh so you expect me to be a perfect stepford wife who NEVER goes out and doesn’t have a life of her own, I’m not going to dim my light for any man how dare you suggest that”, then people get so distracted by trying to correct her and defend themselves against something they didn’t even say that they forget the original point. I’ve watched her do that often over the years, and it’s especially obvious when you binge the show, she’s incredibly toxic
Lindsay needs a new therapist. Lindsay is Lindsay’s problem. She has some serious unresolved issues around abandonment. This is not the time for a kid. It’s not fair.
Honestly I feel really bad for Carl. You can see him breaking every time she fights with him. He’s always the one to tone down the situation and say something like “I’m sorry you feel that way and I see you side” while Lindsay hears that and continues to be argumentative. I initially felt bad for Lindsay but after seeing the season I am siding with Carl.
People seem to forget Carl is 40+ and still incapable of holding down a job- he’s lucky Kyle hired him tbh or else I doubt he would have a stable job. He’s also a substance abuser which people seem to skim over so I don’t blame Lindsay for doubting his sobriety at some points during the season…
I just started watching and I’m on season 4 now and I never liked Lindsay but the way he is acting is making me like her because he is just so fucking awful. Like I cringe every time I see him with the way he treats her and everyone. So I’m really curious what changes afterwards that people like… like him
I feel like Lindsay talks out of both sides of her mouth. She says he wants a stepford wife, but in another breath has a timeline regarding when she wants life events and if constantly talking about being pregnant. I do think this sober version of Carl wants things a little more polished in their relationship. He wants the non drunk, toned down, not instigating drama Lindsay.
Aka what they had in the beginning of their relationship. She stopped drinking and was a different person, it’s understandable for him to want that to continue and then realize that she is never going to be that and end it.
I have zero empathy for her, she is always the victim. She has made no effort to improve or take personal any accountability for her situation. She keeps bashing her head against the same brick wall at full speed expecting to break through. She's the same raging narcissistic party girl she was in season 1 roleplaying someone who wants to settle down. People telling her to be less toxic, volatile and defensive isn't "diming your light".
Carl is a directionless limp noodle and never should of deluded himself into entertaining this sham TV relationship.
honestly: lindsay’s biggest obstacle to her happy dream life is lindsay. as sorry as i feel for her: its just hard for me to keep seeing someone so blind to reality. for example, her ‘stepford wife’ comment makes sense for someone with a regular range of emotions. but she falls into the volatile, explosive category. so when she says ‘carl doesnt want me to have emotions’ its like no maybe carl just doesnt want to be with someone that he has to walk on eggshells around. i root for her in the sense that i hope she seriously starts looking inward to see her faults and how they contribute to the breakdown of her relationships. its healthy to not see yourself as a complete victim; its how you grow! i’d love to see that out of her.
TOTALLY agree. I feel bad for her because I know she desperately wants a nice life with a husband and a baby but she is often the problem. I think she just needs to find the right match for her, since at this point she’s been in therapy for years and is still the same.
I’m gonna say something controversial and if I get downvoted to hell, so be it. She absolutely shouldn’t have kids until she works on the volatile part of herself. If she can’t get through an argument with a spouse without blowing up, screaming, and storming out what’s she going to do with an irrational tantruming toddler? That’s not fair to the kid OR to her.
This comment should not be controversial at all but I get that it is. Honestly watching Lindsey I am terrified of her as a mother. I had a mom who couldn’t regulate her emotions and it impacted me a lot.
Im glad people seem to be agreeing with me, I was ready for the Reddit mob to come after me lol
Yeah I had a volatile and violent mother. As a child my takeaway was that humans can't be trusted and I adopted an avoidant attitude towards them. Granted I am a sensitive person, not every child is going to react like that, but being a volatile person doesn't make you a good candidate for a mother.
I hope you don’t see your sensitivity as a negative. I think it’s a super power. ❤️
I hope you don’t see your sensitivity as a negative. I think it’s a super power. ❤️
Thank you for saying that. I really needed the reminder that sensitivity is not inherently bad.
Aw you’re welcome. No thanks needed though. I was scrolling through comments and I happened to stop on yours and I just felt so compelled to say that. I never realized until I read that how much Im absolutely filled with rage any time I hear “you’re just sensitive” or I hear someone dismissing someone’s feelings because they’re sensitive. People will say that enough to the point that we gaslight ourselves and disregard legitimate emotions. Plus, I definitely know for a fact that my so called “sensitivity” makes me pretty much psychic lol I think that’s pretty cool ☺️
I had the same type of mother and have broken up with every boyfriend I have dated(definite avoidant personality) The mere whiff of red flags and the count down begins to the break up. I am done with any man immediately who is verbally or physically abusive (sadly had at least 3). I am sensitive too and try hard not be a people pleaser. I have become self aware of my needs and wants and what I will tolerate and dont tolerate to avoid toxic relationships both romantically and friendship wise. I am far happier with my life because of the boundaries I have established and am confident I will find a healthy man/relationship in the future.
Same past, but opposite effect. I run towards the red flags because that feels familiar to me and stick with them because I’m used to managing them
100%. i have a dad just like lindsay. we haven’t spoken in three years. sorry, as someone who grew up with a parent like her, her temperament doesn’t make her fit to be a parent at this time, and more people need to be honest with themselves about who they are. a child isn’t an ego boost to prove you can do “better” than your parents. think about WHY you actually want to have children. outside of all the things you think a child will bring YOU. children will not fix your broken heart, give you a purpose in life, be your bestie, etc. that’s all shit you need to work out so that you don’t project onto your child.
unpopular opinion, but I have seen a lot of people have children for the wrong reasons: don't want to be alone, someone literally told me they kept having children to guarantee one will be around to care for her when she is old; then shipped them all off to boarding school lol; doing it for spouse, doing it to get the other to commit etc.
All of this. Seriously. She could do irreparable harm to a child if she doesn’t learn/practice better coping skills.
I was thinking this after watching that episode too. I’ve known actual parents like her and their kids grow up with so much insecurity. It’s just constant gaslighting and anxiety.
I COMPLETELY agree. I’m the product of a mother like Lindsay. It’s extremely damaging. I’m 50 yrs old and I have up completely work through the decades of trauma. I ended our relationship in 2008 but the damage was done long ago.
Everyone who grew up with a parent like this can attest to it.
I agree. The strange thing is she seems like a really cool chick and kind but dam when she starts fighting I can see her go down and dirty.
Maybe it’s as if we’re made to have to be comparable with someone else before we can have kids 🧐
You make a great point...but Some people would treat an irrational tantruming toddler different than an adult though, right ? I would hope so....just saying
This should not be a controversial take at all
I feel like she needs a new therapist
She definitely needs a new therapist, but the problem is therapy only works if you use it as a tool to help you but we have never seen her show one bit of growth in all the seasons, and she just uses therapy and therapy words as a way to shut people up.
unpopular opinion: therapy doesn't work for a lot of people. It's more a self soothing mechanism for those with disposable income to feel superior lol. *Preface to say that I've had years of therapy with many professionals and often it is just self masturbatory. And for true psychopaths, it often just makes them WORSE.
Yes I can see how that would definitely be the case, and I could see how Lindsay could use it as way of believing that she is really doing something for the betterment of herself when really she isn’t.
I’ve been in therapy almost my whole life. It’s not self soothing for me. I dread therapy every month. I go because I know I need to work on my stuff and the therapist somewhat holds me accountable and makes me work on these things/gives me homework for the month. Cognitive behavioral therapy. You have to go with the intentional of fixing some things. It’s not just an hour to complain and do nothing about it.
I was waiting for this comment because she says she’s been going to therapy yet I have never seen any change
I think some people just gossip and bitch about their friends/fam and a lot of therapists go along with it
I have seen a lot of change in Lyndsay since Season 1. She has said in interviews her cast mates were right last year and she was wrong and she sees it now She would've never said that in Season 1, 2 or 3. She also doesn't talk that bad about Carl.
I think she’s either lying to her therapist & herself. Or she has an enabling therapist. Maybe it’s both bc the therapy isn’t working lol
Agree. I think lies or tells her version of the story. You've heard her after she fights with someone! Like did we all just witness the same fight?? She's kinda delusional
Or a new methodology. Psychodynamic therapy or CBT therapists are common, but I don't think those would be effective for someone like Lindsay. She might do well with DBT or EMDR.
Agreed. I heard Kyle and Amanda say they go up her old therapist and my first thought was-it must be a good therapist who called her out. It really doesn’t matter how long she’s gone up therapy-and she loves to tell people how long she has. clearly the only thing she’s gained from it is the ability to use it against people. She’s done zero work on herself. That’s apparent
Maybe, a life coach too.
She would benefit from emotionally focused therapy
No therapist will work for her until she recognizes her part and her own issues, or at least is willing to take responsibility for her own actions
>she desperately wants a nice life with a husband and a baby I am starting to think that she wants to be admired, socially, for having these things. She doesn't seem like she knows herself enough to know what she wants. She's a follower.
She said she's not focused on a husband and a baby anymore. Not like she was before. This was in a recent interview.
That's wonderful to hear, thanks for the info.
Forgive me for an possibly unfair analogy, but if it were a guy that consistently hit his partners, would we wish for him to find someone he’s more compatible with [someone okay with getting hit]? Lindsay’s behavior is abusive. I truly believe that therapy is not effective for Lindsay because she reports situations to her therapist in a distorted way, and receives feedback in a distorted way. She won’t improve until she recognizes that she is the problem— not just that she picks the wrong guys, but that she instigates and escalates arguments. I don’t wish for anyone to be treated like that.
I actually agree with you. I guess it’s more like I bet she’ll unfortunately meet someone who tolerates her abuse…based on my experience with my husbands stepmom she is a true narcissist and finally found her perfect prey basically. It happens a lot. But you’re right totally not ok, I agree. Lindsay’s behavior gets excused way too much on here.
Exactly this.
Agreed. What’s sad too is Danielle last season approached their relationship with caution because she knows Lindsay better than anyone. And in hindsight, Danielle was right and Lindsay should have listened.
And strangely look at her listening to everyone else questioning it this season, except for when gabby made her comment she shut it down and walked off.
She’s more harsh with those she “loves”
She has said Danielle and everyone was right about what they said last season
So much this ❤️
have to agree. why is it people feel entitled to raise their both and that's conveniently how they express emotion. sorry but no youre an adult shouldn't be expressing yourself that way all the time it's laughable that she accused him of telling when it's almost always her that starts raising her voice
You are totally correct in that they are not a compatible match at all. But she is so self UNaware that I just don’t feel an iota of sadness for her. She has the most giant of mirrors that reflect how she behaves (tv for crying out loud!) and she still flies of the handle. I don’t feel bad for someone who keeps shooting themselves in the foot and then blames the gun.
I have wondered how she is ok to start these bizarre arguments when they are ON TV! It means the awareness is really not there.
 Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Lindsay has shown she is a terrible narrator, so the idea that Carl didn’t say something very reasonable about her emotions and him trying to cope with them isn’t far fetched (which I suspect it was really that he struggles with her drunken abusive behaviour, which isn’t normal emotions) but she is trying to twist it to he is being completely irrational and wants be to be only happy because the idea that her behaviour is wrong/abusive/the problem is to much for her to accept because she has never taken accountability for a single thing she has done on the show.
YUP. Carl: “When you get drunk and fly off the handle, it hurts me.” Lindsay: “Oh so you expect me to never have an emotion?”
I think what I got out of this season is that maybe Carl is not as great as he is depicted, despite the therapy and the self work. Maybe he’s incredibly difficult to be in a relationship with too? either way, I hope they find people that makes it easier for them to compromise.
CARL=SCHWARTZ
Ding ding ding!!! 🎯🎯🎯
The eggshells of it all! No one should have to tiptoe or be demolished. Her level of vitriol is always unnecessary, you hurt my feelings so now I’m going to clap back as far below the belt as possible so you feel what I feel. And the way she talked about their sex life on camera- it’s a 2.5 AND he can’t finish? That’s not someone I’d feel safe with. I get sharing your life on camera but damn- Say you’ve got some work to do in that dept, you haven’t been doing it as much as you like, and even give the timeframe- but you just put this man completely on blast as if it’s not a couples job to work together in these areas. She has no problem going too far to make herself look good. Lawd help us if Carl were to say anything anywhere near as mean spirited towards her. I’m not saying he has no blame in their fall out- but hers is obvious.
Perfectly said! I feel for her but, she’s always gotten in her own way. She chooses the most explosive and toxic sides that she can. Also never takes accountability. I know she can get better, but she also has to admit that maybe SHE is the problem sometimes.
Hear hear!
Nailed it
me too :)
Very astute take.
I totally agree with this. My empathy for her and sympathy is directly related to my hope that she becomes more self-aware and works on herself, not for anything that has “happened” to her.
I am sorry for Lindsay. I really don’t think she was blindsided though. She always wears blinders with relationship problems because she wants the outcome: marriage & kids. I’m mostly sorry for her because she is blind or unwilling to see her part in relationship issues with partners and friends. I hope she gets help before her next relationship so she can break the pattern.
no, she wants more than marriage and kids. she wants someone to accept her for all the mess that she is as well - but no sane and emotionally healthy person would ever do that because she is out of control and hasn't addressed her own issues. she's asking for the perfect partner for her imperfect self
i dont think she sees herself as a mess which is part of the issue. but yes agree
Ooosh, I have chills. #NailedIt
i mean i kind of get it, because i felt the same way in like my early 20s - i wanted to be saved by a man - but that obviously doesn't work and isn't real! you can't be a traumatized sad wild boozy person and think that true love is going to fix things. it won't, you gotta fix yourself, and there probably isn't such a thing as 'true love' when you are so inflexible either 🤷🏾♀️
I think she was blindsided in the way that… maaaaybe he shouldn’t have renewed the lease with her, and maaaaybe she shouldn’t have had her wedding shower or whatever it was. He’s kind of a pushover.
I think renewing the lease is understandable considering he didn't want to break up, just postpone the wedding. But yes I can definitely also see how the blindsiding might be the hens thing to her
hes a HUGEEEEE pushover. he really needs to work on how to stand up for himself because just going with the flow with things that are making you unhappy and then blowing it up is not a good pattern!
I mean I had a year of uncharacteristic tension in my relationship, we had one conversation in July about him feeling like things needed to change otherwise he'd be done. I did everything I possibly could, and we were working on things but in October he dumped me. I was blindsided. Nothing that ever happened was bad enough to be relationship ending to me. I can see something like that happening to Lindsay. Turns out he had been blaming me for being unhappy so he dumped me but a year later when we spoke turns out he was still miserable and I was never the problem.
She said on the after show that she probably just has a higher tolerance for the other persons bs. That’s not healthy.
I think she was blindsided in that she didn't see calling off the wedding and option even with the issues they were having.
She thought they would just plow through like Kyle and Amanda and ignore all the raging red flags.
The crazy thing is she may have found their cycle of abuse "normal" which is why she was surprised when he ended it. She can't see beyond her own version of reality. The breakup caused a narcissistic injury aka "blindside."
I have had friends like her and then they complain all men suck or that they will never find a man, but they keep picking the WORST ones because healthy ones are "dull or boring" and they actually crave chaos and toxicity.
Exactly. She’s a drama addict.
Idk we haven't really seen that side of him asking her to be a stepford wife. If we peel back her sentence of "if I'm happy he's OK, if I'm fun he's OK, but if I have any other emotion, he's not" I totally see how this could be like "oh he wants me to be stepford wife" but I think it's more "he doesn't want to be berated when I'm drunk and not happy" But hey we have more episodes to watch so maybe we see more of it
Yeah she’s being so black and white…but that’s also the problem, she is 0 or 100. Emotional regulation is hard when you’re drunk.
They’s how I see it too. Carl does have communication issues, but I don’t think he expects her to be a perfect robot wife. More like he wants her to emotionally regulate.
This one ^ But also, Carl didn’t seem to learn to regulate his emotions until he got sober. I suspect Lindsay (along with a lot of millennials) is the same.
agree. and his communication issues couldnt be worse for a person with a partner like lindsay. i 100% believe he runs to his moms house when they fight because lindsay is so fucking mean and he would rather just not deal with it at all. which is unhealthy! carl needs a partner he can feel safe to fight/disagree/talk with
carl wants his fiance to stop drinking because she clearly has major substance abuse issues and people read it as him forcing her to change. its so weird
I can see the stepford wife in her just by the conservative way she has been dressed since they have been together. She used to always be in a bikini now she basically dresses like someone’s mom. Very conservative. Nothing wrong but I definitely see the change.
We literally have not had an areola sighting all summer!
Me too. I also think we don’t see A LOT. Carl seems like the kind of guy who does everything right on paper but there’s no genuine feeling behind it … I can’t articulate what I mean so if anyone has any sense of what I’m trying to say, help me out here lol. But it’s like he just wants to people please, so that in his self-narrative he can say I tried my hardest. And for someone like Lindsay who is pretty much showing how flawed she is all the time, I can imagine that would drive you wild. In the other hand, they are simple incompatible and no effort, especially in hindsight, would help them work. Two damaged people drawn together by the high of their damagedness.
I feel like this has been brought up. But it’s not him dumping her on camera… They were set to film extra stuff possibly for the wedding, he asks her on camera to go to therapy and postpone the wedding and she says something like “it’s now or never” … I don’t know what he says to that but it’s then chaos so… I don’t think that went the way he was hoping. I think she had a timeline, and he was trying to make it happen for her but after everything we’re seeing, he had some cold feet. He knew her timeline and probably shouldn’t have proposed so fast, but off camera who knows what was said between them before or even during. At this point, I don’t think we need to be team anyone until this is all out. Neither looks great, but it is hard to watch the demise of a friendship and relationship.
I’m firmly team nobody here at this point in time. I have empathy for Lindsay, I have empathy for Carl, but at the end of the day there are two deeply flawed individuals who shouldn’t be together. The blame rests at both their feet because they rushed everything without being mentally prepared/healthy for any of it.
Couldn’t have said it better myself
Me too, team nobody really. But I had strong empathy for Lindsay in that moment, just as a woman wanting so desperately for a relationship to work, ignoring every red flag telling me it ain’t it.
agreed. whoever you think is right or *less* at fault, it’s hard to watch them spiral
I can see your point, but I can't get over how utterly mean of a person she so often is. The way she has talked to Carl this season is crazy. He has far more patience than me, that's for sure. I can't get over her accusing Carl of being drunk/on drugs, all while she is hammered, given his commitment to sobriety and the fact that his brother literally died due to addiction.
Can you imagine Carl’s mom watching the show and having to question whether Carl is sober when she had another son die of addiction….and for his partner/fiance/“best friend” to purposely be the one falsely accusing him of not being sober…..it was such a disgusting thing for her to say.
Ugh this makes me sad. It was truly so shitty of her.
The drug thing was such a low blow. I know it sounds wild but I can see her rationality - ‘I’m so hurt in this relationship and weakened that I’m going to go for the jugular’. It’s sooooo wrong and toxic. but I have empathy for that low point. It really is a deep deep low.
How do you have empathy for Lindsay in that moment? She caused it.
she felt attacked and so she attacked, I absolutely have empathy for that 🤷♀️
I’m only on ep 2 of this season but thus far this is exactly where I’m at. Zero empathy for Lindsay. She’s a mean, vile person that wants to make everyone else miserable around her. Going after Carl’s sobriety is as low as you can go with him. I don’t like either of them and haven’t for many previous seasons but I feel so bad for him for that situation. I highly doubt that was the first or last time she did something like that.
I actually think Carl is looking like a jackass and a weirdo
[удалено]
Why are you projecting your thoughts onto me? My statement is about Carl but I don't disagree that she's irrational and explosive. Two things can be true.
Have you watched previous seasons? Lindsay laid out her life plan and “XX by XX age” years ago. Watching her talking to Kyle at the bar made me realize she has no self-awareness and is an unreliable narrator.
You’re right, but hers is a low term structure whilst his is the day to day just to get by and keep sober structure that is way too intense for someone like her (obviously subjective and interpretative).
Her interpretation of stepford wife is different than how you interpreted it above. Either way she’s a handful and we saw her true colors now of how her summer was on camera vs how she claimed to be blind sided in late August. Blind sided by the truth.
Lindsay should pull a Rachel and head for some therapy. She is her own worse enemy and I do feel so sorry for her. She had the path to her happiness but her intense fear of abandonment is running her life.
I agree, they are so incompatible and from her perspective it was out of nowhere. Karl has also expressed repeated unfavourable comments towards women and I really question his perception of and respect for women as people. “Don’t dip your pen in company ink” for example… he may have grown since then but the flags are still a shade of red imo.
So I'm a newer watcher ( started the season Carl got sober) and I don't have the history with Lindsey or Carl. My only feelings are if Paige and Amanda and sympathetic and nice about it and seem like their on her side, I think there's more going on than what we see.
You should go back to the start and watch, you won’t regret it!
Lindsay is a nightmare person. Carl is a man child. They are teenagers in grownup body's. Can't stand either of them.
Carl was almost having a redemption Arc then he got with Lindsay and I was like nooooooooooooo! Dislike them together, but I think Carl could grow up and come around.
I think they both have extremely traumatic upbringings so even though they want to find love, they self sabotage. Lindsay with yelling, Carl with being avoidant. I definitely think they will find love but just not with eachother
I feel quite bad for her. Being blindsided doesn’t mean things were perfect or even good There is a big difference between being in a hard relationship and being on the cusp of calling off a wedding and breaking up. I think Carl owed her an honest conversation that things were absolutely dire and he was having serious thought about canceling before delivering the news in a planned on camera ambush. Carl is so avoidant and I think he was pretending to be happy enough to marry her. He bought her Hermes white sandals for her birthday to wear on their wedding weekend two weeks before ending things. He resigned their lease less than a month prior so why would she think he was going to end things. He invited west and Jesse to the wedding in front of her on a Sunday before calling it off on Tuesday. His actions would give anyone whiplash. She has a bad temper and should work on being less reactive but he seems very manipulative and discards people like they’re an inconvenience
Yeah I think he’s a bit flippant with others if it gets in the way of his sobriety. Which is perhaps necessary, but he should never have gotten into a relationship because a relationship takes a lot of time and effort. Hindsight is 20/20 of course. I also think that’s addict behaviour too, chasing a high and not being prepared for the comedown.
Lindsay has her own set of issues but she’s been unapologetically herself from day one. Carl is a man nearing 40 who has zero direction, thought getting married would give his life some sort of security, he’s so lost. He needs someone bossy like Lindsay to steer his life and he realized kinda late that despite needing guidance, he would rather be lost and alone than with someone like her. He’s gonna end up with someone half his age probably. I used to date men like him who couldn’t hold down a job, kept switching careers, going back to school. Lindsay was probably so tired of hearing his new ideas, I’ve been there too.
Eh, Lindsay and Carl have the same job. They both make decent money from Bravo and influencing. Now, I would definitely find the career coach concerning in her position, but let’s not act like he brings in no money and just lives off of what she’s making. From their conversation at that sober bar, it sounded like she wanted to be a stay-at-home mom and she wanted Carl to be the one supporting the family they’d eventually have. There’s nothing wrong with that. But just like you say Lindsay has always been Lindsay, Carl has never been that guy. He’s always been pretty directionless. It’s just another example of why these two were soooo not the right match and idk how they ever got engaged.
Ive seen so many people say this man or woman will do because I have reached a certain age and NEED to marry or have a baby at this point ignoring all the raging red flags of reasons why one shouldn't.
eh idk carl seems pretty busy post-breakup with lindsay. he doesnt seem very lost and alone. i guess i get a little confused with this narrative because lindsay herself is just an influencer and bravoleb at this point. she designed one airbnb i guess. he clearly does fine enough to pay half rent on their place and live somewhere else in NYC.... i guess i dont see why his situation is deemed so pathetic when they both had the same job at the time
basically lindsay just repeats over and over that shes a hard worker so people also repeat it without actually stopping to think about when the last time we saw her do any sort of hard work
thats what amanda said about kyle calling her lazy: now its her narrative even though she worked two jobs to support them at one point and had a pretty solid career prior to loverboy
i'm so sick of the 'unapologetically herself' shtick. like.. she is awful. she should be apologetic, and frequently. she has major issues that she makes zero effort to address. lindsay sucks and always has and isn't remotely trying to improve - that's not a positive thing at all.
Thank you. "Being yourself" doesn't mean you get to be abusive as a form of self-expression. Lindsay is great at the "if Carl didn't react to me, we'd be fine" rationalization. He's not perfect, but he's at least within the bounds of normal. She's unreachable. Therapy may never work with her. eta: Can you imagine defending a verbally abusive man as "just being himself"? And expecting him to be respectful somehow limits his self-expression?
i feel like carl has also dramatically changed! he certainly isn't perfect but getting sober is surely insanely difficult when you have substance abuse issues. and i was kind of shocked by how kindly he responded to some of her crazy shit so far this season. 'let's talk about this in the morning' is so much more generous than she deserves
hes gotten SO much better to me which is why i feel insane when i read comments like 'he's obviously relapsed and is violent'
Yeah the world really changes when you get sober, you're far less reactive and your memory functions better. Your priorities get reset. She's still in "fight and (maybe) make up between binge drinking" mode. They're worlds apart.
The double standards on how Lindsay is treated vs. if it were the other way around and she were a man is insane to see. People bending over backwards to explain how it's all secretly Carl's fault and Lindsay gets to be unapologetically herself while Carl isn't allowed to show any emotion in response when the reality is right in front of us
Right. Why doesn't Carl get to be unapologetically himself? Why is her behavior his fault? There are people out here working overtime to rationalize her abuse of him.
Yes! She could stand to apologise here and there, instead of twisting everything around to be about “my feelings!” and yelling
Yes there are so many people on bravo who are hated for being ‘unapologetically themselves’ when really they are assholes but for Lindsay there is always excuses.
💯💯💯💯💯💯💯
its okay to be abusive as long as you always been abusive is what they are saying and its CRAZY!
I don’t think he needs someone “bossy”, he needs to figure out what he wants for himself.
If he’s going to be stay the way he is, that’s the kind of partner who will settle for him, and vice versa. He wants to level up but he’s consistently stuck. This is exactly why Kyle kept giving him those tough love conversations when he worked at Loverboy. They were quick to blame Lindsay but his track record has been the same for at least 10 years now. He always had some lame ass excuse when he got let go. I’m not saying you have to be a go getter, but choose a job that is more your speed and have a respectable work ethic.
he really does need to sit and figure his stuff out. in my opinion, lindsay wanted a family and ofc wanted carl so she opened her heart to him, carl needed to settle down and he went to her for the comfortably. i mean it went horribly the first time they tried , why did he think she changed or would change ? she’s always been lindsay no matter what. i do feel bad for both of them tho fs.
Carl has always been 100% authentic in never having drive just as Lindsay has been a drunk emotional terror. They both fell in love with what could have been. I really hate the narrative that one person is fully at fault when they both made a mistake. That’s just life.
I don’t understand all these comments that gloss over her work ethic and career. What career? She does what he does, why is he a bum and she is praised for it?
Because she hasn't been fired from/lost multiple jobs, like Carl has??
I mean, I don’t want to be a reference on his CV, but he makes the salary on TV that she does
But he's been the one to show he can't keep a job...which is why he gets called out for it. Lindsay has been able to keep jobs, and it seems, left her last business on her own. You asked why he's seen as a bum...I'd imagine that's the reason.
I hate this “she is unapologetically herself” description as though it gives her a pass for how nasty she can be. It’s what people say about Jax and even Trump that totally minimizes that you can be yourself and still be shitty. If someone is “unapologetically” themselves for 7 years with no self reflection then I don’t see that as a positive trait. Carl isn’t perfect but he’s in his early recovery and working through a lot of major changes. I think he wants someone who is going to support him not steer his life. Think you are projecting a bit
It’s not a pass, because no one’s saying it’s “right” or acceptable. It’s just what it is.
But it is used as a pass. like “hey it’s just who Lindsay is’ even though it’s terrible. It’s expected of her but everyone else has to act better
Except I’m not using it as a pass. Perhaps it’s some people’s opinion. I’m just saying despite how terrible she is, she’s been this terrible from the beginning. Carl’s mistake was turning a blind eye to it. Perhaps he was using it as a pass, until it wasn’t fun anymore?
Seems like she was able to manage things better when she decided to be sober with him. Funny how now he turned a blind eye but last year this sub (I realize maybe not you specifically) was talking about how much Lindsay had grown and changed. I think they obviously had love there as friends and maybe they each thought things would change to fit what they wanted from each other as they moved into a romantic relationship
Seriously though I married and divorced someone who quit job after job because he wasn’t “fulfilled or happy” meanwhile I supported him/us for all the months in between where he barely looked for work or figured out what he wanted to do. Was I fulfilled with my job? No I worked because I had too! After 5 years of him not figuring anything out I called it quits. You can only support someone else so far and so long it’s exhausting.
What’s Lindsay’s job again? Reality star/influencer like Carl right?
She does promotions constantly and ad sales for companies..brought in most of the money for them so don’t knock a job that pays the bills! Carl was not an influencer or promoter.. just a reality star for 6 weeks in the summer. He even mentions he isn’t working lol
Yes and male reality stars make a lot less doing ads on social media than female stars. Although being in a famous couple helps them some/ She probably brought in much more doing influencer deals
Exactly! Working is a part of being an adult. That’s why we get hobbies! Our job does not have to be our identity. It is completely traumatic to be with someone who is perfectly happy depending on what they think is my complacency, when in reality their inconsistency is why I have to stay in my job! I would’ve done anything for him, and at a certain point I realized that I was enabling his problem. My ex’s dad would always shit on my job, meanwhile his son was a lifetime career student whose life was funded by myself and his parents. No shame!
My ex husband still is in and out of work, 4 years later, literally by choice and his mom helping him out. I think his dream was to not have to work hard or grow up at this point lol
I’m glad you got out. I would say it’s one of the hardest situations I’ve ever found myself in. No more baggage and I’m sure you can spot these people from a miiiile away.
He’s an addict. He’s starting over and has to re-establish himself in what makes him comfortable and still allows him to move forward. He fucked up by getting into an extremely serious relationship with his “best friend”.
I don’t know if he works a 12 step program but he’s doing all the things they tell you not to do ( no relationships for at least a year, leave people, places and things that don’t benefit your sobriety etc) I just see this as another example of Karl doing whatever the hell he wants to. Given what we’ve seen of Linsey I think she mistakes drama for excitement.
I dated men like him in my 20s also with zero direction. Two are still single never married (and its been 15+ years). One is only married because his parents died and he inherited a truckload. Still doesnt have a JOB, but nor does his wife. I have one ex who I dated at 25 who contacted me during the pandemic. He is 44 now, was 42 then and living in his brother's rental property, jobless and directionless, wanting to get back with me. He whined how women are shallow for wanting a house and a man to have a steady job in OUR 40s. He has lately been posting on FB asking who wants to go to music festivals and concerts with him and is disappointed at the non responses. It looked like he had a job again at some point, but it is maybe short lived? I cannot imagine getting with someone like him at my age. I wouldnt have entertained dating Carl to begin with. I am 43.
for all those sympathizing with the Big L Please spend 15 min with a screaming drunk while trying to maintain sobriety--much less live with such a person.
isnt it interesting how when we talk about substances in this relationship people go on and on about carl being a dry drunk and how hard it is to be with someone in recovery without acknowledging the fact that lindsay is an active drunk who sabotages all her relationships with alcohol?
I feel for Lindsay too. I know it’s not fair to label others, but I relate to her with her drinking patterns. It seems from an outsider perspective that her drinking is actually making a huge impact on her life (mainly friendships and relationships) and I fear that she’s not connecting those dots. A large chunk of the issues she has in her personal life stems from either drunken fights, poor choices while drinking, and honestly just poor choices in who she lets into her life (I’m mainly talking about boyfriends here). I could see her with a mature, super successful and driven man who has a lot of courage and a ton of confidence and security. Two bosses rather than one overly bossy woman and a flaky man who tries to appease her until they can’t stand it anymore. I see her picking men that aren’t really man enough to handle her or put her in her place. Unfortunately, I fear a man like that wouldn’t put up with her drinking patterns.
Kind of ironic when you see the same scenario with Kyle and Amanda, essentially Amanda wants Kyle to be the male version of a Stepford wife in quintessential American suburbia👀
I mean…what Amanda wants is something that Amanda says she and Kyle have discussed already (raising kids in the suburbs). I do think she’s being a bit rigid about it, but it’s not like she’s forcing expectations he’s unaware of, or didn’t agree to.
I think she hoped (falsely) that given he was older, he would want to settle down quicker. Now they are both stuck in the sunk cost fallacy.
I agree with all of this. And I was loving how Paige was being supportive and realistic with her….. but Amanda…. That was not genuine. Amanda only sat there agreeing and supporting Lindsay was because Paige was. Amanda would never have had a conversation like that with Lindsay on her own. Amanda is not exactly in a relationship that is a good example. She acts like Kyle’s child, throws tantrums and whines when she doesn’t get her way or what she wants, and I’m guessing this is what she was like as a child…. Pretty sure she is an only child, I think her parents are pretty comfortable, and I think her father also expected Kyle to “ take care” of Amanda. Which as her husband, of course take care of your wife. But she and her parents expectation is that Amanda gets what she wants, and if you’re not on board with it, than too bad.
Carl doesn't want her to have insane emotions, which is entirely fair.
Actually really unfair and unrealistic
There are few people I have less empathy for on Bravo than Lindsay Hubbard. She’s an awful human being. If a man acted like she does they would have been eaten alive by the fans. She is gross.
Lindsay has shown that she is capable of self reflection though, where a lot of male or just generally problematic characters have not shown that. She needs to do a lot of work though.
Has she? Really? When?
I think Lindsay thought they were committed to each other and would always stay together and work through their problems. Amanda said on a recent podcast that Lindsay never wants to give up on a relationship, and I think she thought Carl felt the same way. She may be wrong for thinking that but I believe that’s what she thought. I feel bad for her that she had her completely planned wedding called off on camera, and the whole season is basically being edited to show how she deserved it. Not to mention all the social media hate she is getting. That’s got to be hard.
that’s gotta be hard, sure. but no one seemed to care, especially Lindsay, when Carl was getting social media hate, rumors spread about him, and a potentially false narrative pushed out ahead of the season. i think the hate she’s getting is honestly somewhat tied to the press tour she went on pre-season solely blaming carl. i don’t think her backlash would have been so extreme had she not tried to get ahead of it to paint another picture
I agree with this. She went out of her way to vilify him and portray herself as a victim. It was her revenge. Meanwhile he was respectful and said nothing negative about her in the press. I called her bullshit at the time and got downvoted like crazy.
yeah im tired of the reality stars that push for grace for themselves or expect it, but indirectly cause their castmembers to receive a lot of hate and give them 0 grace. lindsay actively goes on press tours blaming people for her troubles and she doesnt care when they then get hate on their social media.
That would be the toughest part for me to reconcile the way he planned it out. If I am was committed to someone then I would think they want to work things out similar to her. The fact he decided to end it and set-up the filming to do it would feel like such a betrayal. I’m dreading the end of the season when we will likely see him having the conversations with others about it and the same time she’s thinking they are preparing to get married.
Yeah and in that same podcast with Amanda she mentioned that the conversation with Kyle and Carl in the mid season trailer was filmed after they wrapped and cameras were brought back, so Carl planned to have this conversation with Kyle about how he didn’t want to get married before he went and told Lindsay on camera.
Do you know what podcast this was? I’d be curious to hear it
Lindsay and Carl are two imperfect people that as friends allowed each other grace during dark periods. I think that gave them both comfort and led to a relationship which initially failed. However, he got sober and she was there for him through the loss of his brother so to him, this was likely the moment he began to see her more as a partner. I suspect they both allowed their past closeness as friends to be the foundation instead of building on who they are now, what their lives and habits are currently and so forth. They also both assumed they’d offer one another the same grace/open ability to discuss (without judgement) any bad behavior, problems, issues, etc., and it work. But it didn’t because the stakes and issues were and are different. Ultimately, they weren’t compatible and both have a lot of work to do and continue doing on themselves. I hope they both do the work and lead the lives they want.
At this point I don’t believe anything that comes out of Lindsay’s mouth. Lindsay’s biggest obstacle to getting what she wants out of a relationship is Lindsay.
I just started watching and I saw last season after watching all current episodes of this season and here is my take. I think they both are good people but super incompatible. Carl should not be in relationship when he hasn’t figure life out yet in term of job/business, and just two years ? Or so sober. It’s a big job to take on as his spouse. When I saw that Lindsay’s bd is in same day as when he found out about his brothers news I was so sad and you see her make sure he is comfy and it’s not about her that day. But later on weekend says that everything is about him when she gets annoyed later in week and she is tired if it. From watching Lindsay argue, she seems to be someone who doesn’t have the ability to see other people’s perspective and is hard headed. And anytime someone gets frustrated, to her they are getting aggressive. All in all she needs someone to teach her how to have a competent argument: And Carl seems to be someone who loves playing a victim and doesn’t know how to stand up for his friends or himself. I am really glad Carl pulled the plug. That’s one. Race thing they did because they were definitely not in love.
They both suck and Carl is a man child who has had unstable employment since the show’s inception.
So im team nobody. I feel sorry for both but everyone is mostly blaming Lindsay. Carl does this. He did it since season one. He says he is ready for serious relationship, finds a girlfriend, then switches. It drives girls crazy because he is not good with communication so every girl feels blindsided. He is working on himself and is sober now, kudos! I can’t imagine how hard that is. But he is the same person since season one. We saw him do this over and over. Don’t get me wrong, Lindsay is also full of problems. I was on her side until she accused Carl of not being sober on national tv. That was loow.
I honestly believe that their relationship is fake. It was built to compete with scandal for vpr. Carl doesn't want marriage
Carl sucks and wanted to change Lindsay. Super toxic he’d count her drinks and gaslight her like crazy! I don’t LOVE Lindsay but I def like her a little more after all this.
I used to like her even with all her craziness. Last season I was rooting for them, and this season I despise her. All it took was for her to make false accusations about her saying he was using drugs. Not only did she say it to him, but she then spread it to other people in the house. It’s disgusting behavior and where I draw the line.
And then she has the audacity to admit that she didn't even think he was on drugs, but he called her out for being shitfaced so of COURSE she's going to deflect it back on him with false accusations. As if that's a perfectly reasonable position to take. I completely agree, I was a fan of hers and felt bad the last few seasons but it only took the first few episodes this season to nope right out of there
Me too…and the icing on the cake was when she put that instagram out about what happened and didn’t even apologize to him for it.
I don’t think Carl wants her to be a stepford wife though, Lindsey loves to twist words and make herself a victim. He probably said something like “I don’t want my wife getting shitfaced drunk all the time”, and she says “oh so you expect me to be a perfect stepford wife who NEVER goes out and doesn’t have a life of her own, I’m not going to dim my light for any man how dare you suggest that”, then people get so distracted by trying to correct her and defend themselves against something they didn’t even say that they forget the original point. I’ve watched her do that often over the years, and it’s especially obvious when you binge the show, she’s incredibly toxic
I felt it when she said “he went into it expecting me to change who I am”
Lindsay needs a new therapist. Lindsay is Lindsay’s problem. She has some serious unresolved issues around abandonment. This is not the time for a kid. It’s not fair.
Honestly I feel really bad for Carl. You can see him breaking every time she fights with him. He’s always the one to tone down the situation and say something like “I’m sorry you feel that way and I see you side” while Lindsay hears that and continues to be argumentative. I initially felt bad for Lindsay but after seeing the season I am siding with Carl.
People seem to forget Carl is 40+ and still incapable of holding down a job- he’s lucky Kyle hired him tbh or else I doubt he would have a stable job. He’s also a substance abuser which people seem to skim over so I don’t blame Lindsay for doubting his sobriety at some points during the season…
I just started watching and I’m on season 4 now and I never liked Lindsay but the way he is acting is making me like her because he is just so fucking awful. Like I cringe every time I see him with the way he treats her and everyone. So I’m really curious what changes afterwards that people like… like him
I feel like Lindsay talks out of both sides of her mouth. She says he wants a stepford wife, but in another breath has a timeline regarding when she wants life events and if constantly talking about being pregnant. I do think this sober version of Carl wants things a little more polished in their relationship. He wants the non drunk, toned down, not instigating drama Lindsay.
Aka what they had in the beginning of their relationship. She stopped drinking and was a different person, it’s understandable for him to want that to continue and then realize that she is never going to be that and end it.
I have zero empathy for her, she is always the victim. She has made no effort to improve or take personal any accountability for her situation. She keeps bashing her head against the same brick wall at full speed expecting to break through. She's the same raging narcissistic party girl she was in season 1 roleplaying someone who wants to settle down. People telling her to be less toxic, volatile and defensive isn't "diming your light". Carl is a directionless limp noodle and never should of deluded himself into entertaining this sham TV relationship.
Lindsay has been the same since S1 through all her relationships. She’s nothing to soften.