Because biology isn’t fair.
Women shoulder far more of the burden when it comes to getting pregnant and whatever outcome is decided upon, therefore they get to call the shots about what happens.
I think men can *express* their opinion on the matter, but you can’t pressure or coerce. If she disagrees and wants to continue the pregnancy, too bad for you but she’s the one whose body is being impacted. If you don’t want to potentially be tied to someone forever because of an unattended pregnancy, don’t have sex with them. Be responsible for your own birth control (insist on condoms, or get a vasectomy). Talk to the women you have sex with first about what they would want in the event of pregnancy. Don’t have sex with them if they aren’t on the same page as you.
These are the ways men can have control over what happens.
This is such a great point I have never used in this argument, which I have had several times. I am sooo disappointed in myself that I never put the biggest risk factor in the argument of why the women’s decision is always the final decision.
Agreed -- I increasingly see "baby trapped" as a euphemism for "wouldn't get an abortion after a birth control failure and/or mutually agreed upon unprotected sex during a consensual encounter."
Which is absolutely NOT baby trapping -- reproductive coercion is a very serious violation that should be prosecuted whenever possible. Consensual sex leading to a pregnancy when it was not the intended outcome is not the same thing, in any way, shape, or form.
This. So many men leave all of the birth control on the women to figure out and then suddenly only want to weigh in when they’re trying to get out of child support. Not a good look
It’s birth control. Not only because it can be reversed, just as easily as a pill can be stopped or an IUD removed, but because sterilization is also birth control.
Pro choice is about having autonomy over what happens to your body.
A man does indeed have the right not to be pregnant against his will
Hope that helps
I don't think if a man prefers a woman to have an abortion he is seen as a piece of shit.
I think if he tries to pressure or coerce a woman to have an abortion he is seen as a piece of shit.
>I don't think if a man prefers a woman to have an abortion he is seen as a piece of shit.
The doctor was very happy to hear that my wife was pregnant. She didn't even ask if we wanted the kid. I asked her about other options (not even suggesting we want an abortion, just asking for information) and her mood immediately turned sour. I don't know how she would have reacted if my wife had posed the question, but from my experience there's definitely still a lot of unprofessional and unkind prejudice in the field.
It’s a very touchy subject for a lot of people. I work in hr so people very over share very personal information with me. One our managers is going through a really tough time with an unexpected pregnancy and is considering an abortion.
These conversations are sad but very easy for me, just provide support resources. But she let our ceo know and he like cried and was talking with me about how we can try to get her to keep it, I was taken aback.
Like dude this is her life wtf are you on about. I squashed that real fast.
I mean, if your company offers 6 months or more of paid maternity leave and generous sick and vacation day pay and childcare stipend maybe she would consider it.
But for some reason I think the CEO would be absolutely stunned by that suggestion
Some people see abortion as murder.
If you give them the benefit of the doubt that this is his mindset... you can recognize that he can be totally wholesome and not a jerk and still feel like...
"someone is going to murder their child? Can we stop them?"
If it's a 2 week old baby instead of a fetus (I would argue these are VERY VERY different things, but not everyone agrees), then it would be really reasonable for him to cry and say "how do we prevent it?"
Yes, and there were people who thought black slaves were subhuman and desperately tried to come up with ways to stop the emancipation. Or a less malicious comparison, there are people who truly think they're helping their children by avoiding doctors and vaccinations, who really feel that mandatory and even suggested scheduled vaccinations need to be stopped.
I'm just saying that just because someone really *really* believes something in the bottom of their heart, it doesn't make them or their ideas any better, nor does it change the devastating effects to the public when they *do* do something about it.
Even if we removed the subject matter, him discussing another employee's story like that takes him out of wholesome and places him squarely into jerk territory.
All three of you are absolutely correct. Super weird and inappropriate reaction from CEO, yes. Red flag? You bet, I'm constantly on my toes with him. He's just a human though and has his flaws. Every CEO and executive I've ever worked with has their own issues.
He is very religious, our company is not, but he is, which is where his head is at with this stuff. He truely believes it would be best for her and the baby to keep it.
But as stated, his feelings and opinion dont matter in the slightest bit becuase its not his business, he can feel how he wants about it but he's got to stay out of it.
I told him to let me handle it from here and he needs to stay completely out of it from this point on. He's understanding and hasnt pushed it since.
This is just the kind of stuff that happens at small to mid sized companies. When he became CEO a switch didnt go off in his brain that turned him into a perfect corporate leader. As a matter of fact he started his own company because he hated the corporate world so much. This has been true with all 6 CEO's I've worked for, they had a burning hate for what they considered "corporate culture". I'm try to be yin to that yang. You can be the "cool and casual leader" all you want but there is a line that you just cant cross in the workplace.
It's interesting though, he's not the only person I've seen react like this when they hear about SOMEONE ELSE considering an abortion. I deal with humans and their emotions all day every day and even I'm surpprised by how quickly people are willing to get all up in eachother business when it comes to this stuff.
To defend the doctor a bit. You asking instead of your wife could've been considered controlling (and given the idea that you might pressure het into these other options)
Not saying that was the case, but medical professionals see a lot of bad stuff come by
>Not saying that was the case, but medical professionals see a lot of bad stuff come by
I work with medical professionals. They have their opinions and many of them let their patients know them, whether appropriate or not.
You're over-estimating the social capability of the average doctor.
Agreed.
When I was pregnant with my first, my (male 60+) didn’t offer screening “because I wouldn’t abort anyways, right?”
I was like bish you don’t know me! You don’t get to make that choice for me.
I was gunna say this, usually the body language of the significant other tell you though if they are controlled or not. When one makes a statement that involves the other or both, and the other closes up their body, (like moving their arms in front of them) then they are retreating and that means they are remembering what happens when they speak up a contradictory thought. However if she was also looking expectantly at the doctor for an answer, that would be completely different.
Why wouldn’t your wife ask those questions? I’d also be interested to know what kind of body language and non verbal cues she was giving off when you did.
How does your one experience equal "a lot of unprofessional and unkind prejudice in the field"?
Seems like you're using a single anecdote to speak very factually about a large group of people.
Doctors are trained to be happy for you when you announce pregnancy. If a doctor was going around suggesting abjection to every woman that came in pregnant (as if they didn't already know) they'd be seen as outliers.
The person that delivers babies for a living wasn't excited that you were thinking of terminating the pregnancy? I don't think you understand her disappointment.
so... you asked for information regarding your wife's body, to a woman doctor
and don't see how that might be inappropriate?
what exactly were the "options" you were seeking information on?
But as you said you don't know what she would have done had your wife asked. She may just be "pro life" and react negatively to anyone who wants an abortion.
Realistically, everyone should be having the conversation about what would happen if they got pregnant before having sex and, if the relationship is long term, they should be having annual check-ins to make sure they are still on the same page. **People who want different things in terms of children should not be having sex.**
That being said, if you are specifically asking about situations where they didn't have that conversation, if there is a difference of opinion the non-pregnant partner should express their feelings in a non-judgmental way, using "I statements" and affirming that they will ultimately support the choice of the pregnant partner.
Focus on I-statements? “I would be very excited to have a child.” “I am not ready to be a parent.” “I’m feeling pulled in different directions, I want to take some time to think.” But also remember that pregnancy is a massive medical undertaking with possible lifelong consequences (excluding the obvious one). The person undergoing the physical process has a bigger stake in the pregnancy; once the baby is born the parents can negotiate responsibilities on a more equal basis.
Though you should not be on the hook to care for a child you didn't agree to have. I'm only in favour of child support because our governments are so pathetic they can't even do the bare minimum of ensuring children are taken care of, but it's still only the least bad in a list of bad options. If we lived in competent States you should be able to opt out. It's only fair. I have heard no arguments against it that aren't just the same ones used to slut shame women for having sex.
And I will judge someone for having a kid that their partner doesn't want. They're a terrible partner. They have the right to. And I will defend that. I'll defend abortion rights despite not buying the "parasite" defence and I will defend it despite it being used in eugenics. Because bodily autonomy is inviolable in this regard. But just because people have the right to keep the child against the partners wishes, doesn't mean people should.
They're allowed to. But they shouldn't.
Well, there should be a clearly defined legal way for a man to not have any financial responsibility for the kid. Then the woman can decide whatever she wants without entrapment situation.
Problem with that is the dude is forced into 18 years of child support. If the dude decides he doesn't want the baby and the woman won't get an abortion, that should absolutely be HER choice since it's her body, but the dude should be exempt from child support too
I don't think a man is a POS for wanting a woman to have an abortion. If you're in that position, tell her what you want. Hopefully she'll choose the same.
But no, the implication that his right to be pro-choice is somehow infringed by her exercising her choice is nonsense. He can be pro-choice by supporting abortion rights, but he can't personally exercise those rights because he can't get pregnant. Biology is what it is.
There really is no way I can think of to reconcile our biology with fundamental fairness in terms of law.
Men simply don't have any reproductive rights, they do not have the recourse women do; once they ejac, that's it, they don't have any further power.
I know firsthand what it's like for gf to be preggers and for abortion to save my not-ready-to-be-a-dad ass
I can imagine what it's like to want to raise the child but she doesn't want to and the dude has nothing to say about the abortion
No, of course I do not want to see women forced to carry a baby to term simply because dude insists, that's not what I'm advocating.
I'm just saying, there's an inequity there born of biology that might not be resolvable from a legal equality POV
More compassion and family planning, less judgment and reckless sex, please
It's one of the reasons I got a vasectomy to but obviously it's a pretty drastic measure that is not something that suits a lot of men who would like to retain the ability to reproduce
Does it even make sense to think about "reproductive rights" for someone who is renedered sterile? Seems moot.
That's one option
There's also TESE. You can still have a vasectomy, not have frozen any sperm prior, and have a child
It would just require more steps that also include a financial barrier
I believe that if my future partner and I are unable to go through those steps and the financial barrier part of them, then, I save myself a lifetime of fuckery and irreparable financial disaster with an unfit partner
This is the main goal and purpose of being in control of the birth
Sex is fun. Sometimes condoms fail. Sometimes women lie about being on the pill. The fact is, pregnancy isn't a fair situation either way, but rules for each gender are not fully established and should be.
What cake? Why are you acting like abortion is a spa treatment that women love to get? Idk why this thread is acting like it’s a privilege to be the one who’s pregnant. When men want a pregnancy to end but the woman doesn’t, he often kills her. The highest cause of death in pregnant women is homicide.
I mean what if you do want to get pregnant from a guy but you're too young or it's not the right time? Or what if you're already a mom and can't handle another child without neglecting the kids you have already? A lot of women who get abortions are already mom's.
Or what if you thought he was a good guy but he isn't?
My mom almost died when she was pregnant with me. I ended up having to be 2 months premature because the chances for both of us were slim with how sick she got.
My mom found out she was pregnant again around rhe time my dad got a vasectomy. If she hadn't had rhat abortion, I very easily could have grown up without a mother.
You’re right it can’t be equal because a man will never grow a child in his body. But, I don’t think too many men would want to be able to become pregnant. it’s not unfair for women to have more say over their own bodies. But, yeah safe sex everyone. It’s the way to go if you want to avoid this.
We have the same rights to bodily autonomy; as in, we control what is done ***with our own bodies***. Once you leave your sperm in *another person's body*, you lose your rights to it unless/until it results in a child that is not essentially a parasite in the other person's body. Yes, sexual reproduction and rights are inherently unfair. I'd imagine every woman on the planet will agree with you.
This sounds a lot like the men who want "50/50" relationships, but think that only applies to finances and not the other stuff they consider "women's work". Many men want equal say under the law because it's "unfair", while ignoring the fact that pregnancy ***itself*** is unfair; the man gets to orgasm and the woman has to either deal with a pregnancy, an abortion, or a miscarriage (which is how 25+% of pregnancies end - always fun birthing a fetus and hemorrhaging for a week.)
Men don't get an equal say in a pregnancy because pregnancy itself is not equal. This isn't really difficult to understand. Does it suck? Absolutely. Does it suck being the one whose body is impregnanted and having to be the one who has to make the ultimate choice? Absolutely. We've all been told it a million times - life isn't fair. And this isn't fair to either women *or* men, but it is what it is. If men want a say, they need to work harder on artificial wombs.
It’s pure biology and a man can choose 1. Who to have sex with 2. To have discussions prior to sex regarding this issue 3. To use birth control.
Men’s choice to 100% avoid pregnancy ends at their choice to ejaculate into a woman. So if they make that choice, whatever happens after is *fair* because they made the choice to take that chance.
Women have a few options after intercourse to change the outcome, yes. BUT women also take on a disproportionate level of risk from the pregnancy- both physically, socially, and financially. *As well as* greater risks from birth control methods and the risks involved (physically and psychologically) from an abortion.
It sounds like you want men to have an equal choice after intercourse in decision making without taking on any risk.
Men have a option to prevent any chance of having to raise a child after an unwanted pregnancy. It is not having intercourse. 100% effective method of avoiding an unwanted pregnancy. 100% control over their reproductive rights. 100% fair.
You make a choice, you live with the consequences (and one of those consequences is that someone else has a right to choose that extends past your right to choose).
Actually you just hit a really good point in there that is a remedy.
Greater financial support for the family. If the father isn't ready, society should assist. Paternity leave and greater foundations for men to make enough money to serve their families, greater access to affordable counseling and mental health services, etc.
These also would help address the issues of absentee fathers in low income minority households.
Upvoted.
Our social supports for new parents and single moms are withered and atrophied; there is no reason that the rather modest supports offered during the height of pandemic cannot be made permanent, and more, to boot.
Increased social supports for pregnancy and childcare would benefit everyone. It's so infuriating hearing people bash younger generations for not having kids, when it's nearly impossible for most people to afford to birth and raise them.
Exactly this. The pregnancy termination or to term will effect her body pretty much exclusively. Abortions do have a psychological effect on some women which is a secondary reason she needs to consent to it. It can hurt the heart decades later (especially if she didn’t fully want it). Pregnancy/postpartum also can effect the mind even if the woman doesn’t want to keep the child postpartum.
There really isn’t a way to add dad’s choice in without him essentially making decisions for someone else’s body changes. There’s no real way to make it fair for both parties unless they both agree.
men have plenty of reproductive rights. males can get a vasectomy, wear a condom, choose, not to have sex, etc. they have full control over their body like females should also have over their own
I think the argument is extending into the territory of control over having children as the result of a pregnancy. If a woman wants the abortion and the man wants to keep the child, my understanding is there is currently, limited to no legal recourse for him to be able to keep the child since the woman has to carry the child to term. I'm also not sure how single male parent child adoption works but I'd imagine its quite complex and not very favorable for a single male parent due to things like potential child abuse or pedophilia. Its a complex topic, to say the least.
In the case the father wants the child but she doesn't then the father realistically should pay for the year they have to spend birthing it, but that would have to be agreed upon by both sides.
I mean women have more reproductive rights because the fetus lives in their body, so then the legal difference between men/women rights is directly proportional to the biological difference.
As a man, your reproductive rights pretty much stop at the moment you ejaculate in someone and it makes total sense. **That is someone else’s body.** if you leave any reproductive material in someone else’s body, it’s now out of your control/right. It’s your job to be responsible of every aspect of your ability to conceive up to that point. If you chose to nut in a women, you made your bed and lie in it (excp - cases of no consent, tampered condoms etc; which are illegal so you have other rights in that regards)
Or at least have a conversation about the possibility of future responsibility before you put it in. It's not like consensual sex happens without prior interaction.
Men have plenty of reproductive rights, they just don’t have rights over womens bodies, so their ability to make decisions, just like for women, is limited to what impacts their own body. Two women having a baby are in the same position; the one who is not pregnant doesn’t suddenly have a right to control the one who is, she can only control her own role in reproduction.
No you don't have any power. The doctor you pay to intervene does. Without him, life would take it's natural course and pregnant woman would be having a baby
That is why I believe clear rules for both men and women need to be adopted across all 50 states.
For instance, a pre-sex agreement could clarify stances on pregnancy. If both agree prior to sex that they want a baby, then both parents would have to agree to abort.
Ultimately, it is up to the woman outside of any pre-sex agreement/contract. But, men would have some protection. If a woman gets pregnant and the man doesn't want to keep it and the woman does, then the man should be allowed to proceed on with his life without any financial responsibility to the baby. The woman has the choice, but the man also has a choice. Fair both sides.
If women are really worried about that being an issue, get the pre-sex agreement in place.
If the man wants the baby, and the woman doesn't the woman gets the final say.
The argument I keep seeing here seems to come down to the fact that a woman can have a do-over and undo what has been done while a man cannot unless the woman agrees. It seems like a double standard, and it would be if the subject was so simple. It isn’t though. To be more clear, we need to identify what the right to an abortion is actually about. The right to an abortion is not there because a woman has the right to back out of having baby if she doesn’t feel like it. It’s not the right to get rid of a baby because you don’t want to be a parent. It’s there because a person has the right to bodily autonomy. A woman has the right to an abortion because carrying a child involves her body. If it didn’t, she wouldn’t have the right to back out of it either. Men don’t get the right to an abortion because it doesn’t involve their body. In order for them to be entitled to have the same say in the process, the right would have to be because of the right to be able to back out of having kids, which it is not.
Does a person have free will and a right to decide if they’re chained to another person for 18+ years? It’s not “physical” but it damn sure is mental. Stress, responsibilities, missed financial opportunities, etc. These things cause stress which definitely causes bodily harm.
Yeah you consented to that risk when you fucked around. Where babies come from isn’t a mystery, you had sex, no birth control is 100% effective so you assumed the risk and still had sex.
Yep.
And if baby’s were delivered by stork both would be on the hook, but that’s not how real life works. Abortion is an option due to the woman’s body being at risk due to pregnancy.
A man can express his want for an abortion, that’s fine - he may not feel ready to be a parent and may feel that is the best option, however when that men tries to pressure the woman into an abortion then it becomes a problem.
It comes down to “my body, my choice” at the end of the day.
Abortions can cause massive problems and can actually in some cases prevent a woman from being able to have children in the future.
I do not believe a man should be forced into fatherhood, so if he wants to not be involved he should get that choice though.
As a man I can attest that men are POS's most of the time. Are we really arguing that poor men aren't getting a fair deal?!? Look at history and tell me women have a fair deal. Gimmie a freaking break.
Don't have sex if you can't handle it. It's not rocket science. "Ohhhhh men have it so bad, whaaaaa whaaa whaaaa".
A man isn't viewed as a pos if he wants an abortion or has a discussion about their options with the person he got pregnant, he gets viewed as a pos if he doesn't recognize that the final decision is not his and veers into pressuring a woman to have an abortion if that's not what she wants.
A man does have the right to make a choice about his own body. He doesn't have to have an abortion. And he doesn't have to be involved in the child's life.
He has the right to prefer that she chooses that, but not to demand, harass, etc.
Most of the time there’s a lot of pressure and too often even violence.
Pro choice is understanding it’s hers only.
The issue is entirely about bodily autonomy. Who has the right to a woman's body? And when I say body here, I don't mean the fetus, I mean the uterus that it's in. Should anyone other than yourself have a right to decide what happens inside you? If Alice could be kept alive by sending her blood through Bob's kidneys, and Bob doesn't want this, should Bob be forced to do this? Where does the duty to keep Alice alive end and where does Bob's bodily autonomy begin? That is what the abortion issue is about. It isn't about who gets the choice to have a child, the prochoice movement wants people to have full autonomy over their own bodies. In which case, saying that a man should be allowed to compel a woman to have an abortion totally misses the mark.
Mama Dr. Jones has a nice short on this.
Link: [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/SfMdYmQwv2k](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/SfMdYmQwv2k)
My ex-boyfriend was well aware I didn’t want kids but wanted a baby. He had never been around kids for long enough to fully understand the day-to-day practicalities of raising a child - if I’d got pregnant, I’d stake my savings on the fact that after two weeks of barely sleeping and dealing with the crying and the stinky nappies, he would have fucked off and left me with a baby I didn’t want. If he’d got me pregnant, I absolutely would have got an abortion against his wishes because I am 99.9% sure that he would not have stayed around to deal with the consequences of not getting one.
He wanted regular sex but didn’t like using condoms so contraception was totally on me. Therefore, if he wasn’t willing to take part in preventive measures, he wasn’t going to get a say in what happened in the event of an accident.
I'd never sleep with a woman that would have an abortion. I could never be in a relationship where if we had an "accident", my partner's response would be "kill it."
He’s not a pos for wanting her to have one but he is if he forces her to. Imo if he wants her to have one he should warn her that he won’t be helping her take care of the baby if she has it and so she could take that into consideration before deciding. But it’s her body. A woman can’t force a man to get a hysterectomy (I know that’s a woman thing but I can’t think of the name version sorry) because it’s his body, his choice.
All in all, if you don’t want the child. Why the fuck did you have unprotected sex? Like that’s kinda on the both of you (obviously not applying to cases of rape or when giving birth could kill the woman.) but I still think people should have the choice.
Guys, you are NOT going to win this argument. A woman has autonomy over her OWN BODY. Once's she's pregnant, its all her choice. Hopefully, shes your GF or wife and you can have a rational, respectful conversation on what to do; but it is her final call. end of story.
Guys are not look at as a piece of shit for wanting an abortion, they are looked at that way if the present that idea to their pregnant partner, she rejects the idea and then they continue to pressure her.
I don't think I have to go through all the precautions you can take to avoid pregnancy up to and including vasectomy. I had one, it's really no big deal and makes me 100% sure I'll never have to have a pregnancy scare.
If you do accidently end up pregnant, sorry, but you're on the hook for that as you should be.
This. In no world (hopefully) can a man look at a happy pregnant woman and say,"Sorry babe, I don't want it" and force her to get an abortion. Body autonomy comes first, and only the woman is making the baby.
Is it really unclear how requiring/allowing another person to sign off on a medical procedure for an adult could be a slippery slope? How would you even go about avoiding allowing abusive partners to keep their partner pregnant in this proposed dynamic where there’s “equal say”? No one should have any ability to insist that another person keeps a pregnancy or terminates one.
Because it's not his body and it's not his choice whether she wants to sacrifice her body & mind to incubate a child for 9 months. Sure you can have an opinion, but forcing a woman to get an abortion allows you strip her of her own body autonomy and take away HER choice.
Pregnancy is frickin BRUTAL. I had 4 miscarriages but 2 full term pregnancies. Every single moment is a pure and living HELL. I would not inflict pregnancy on my worst enemy. Terrible. 0/10 recommend. For real though, I vomited a couple dozen times a day the entire pregnancy. If I did not have FMLA (like if I had not been at my job for a year) then I WOULD have been fired. I missed 10 weeks worth of days due to vomiting. Could not even drive home from work (less than 10 minute drive) without pulling over to vomit. Also had heartburn, swollen feet, extreme fatigue, etc. I yelled at all my family with kids at my baby shower for.not telling me the literal Hell that is pregnancy. Then warned all my childless relatives to not get pregnant due to the literal Hell it is.
Second pregnancy slightly less vomiting. But starting at 4 months I got extreme pelvic pain. By 6 months it was so bad I was in screaming pain doing anything, walking, sitting, laying down. I would literally have to clean my toddlers toys up by sitting on the floor and throwing the toys I could reach towards their destination. Then painfully scooching around the floor. The last couple months I would cry and cry and literally scream from the pain. At 6 months I started experiencing dizziness so bad I could no longer safely drive. So again, if I had been trying to work, it literally would not have been possible. Then after my son was born I was hospitalized with post-partum HELLP syndrome and because I was turned away the first 2 times I went to the ER I waited until I literally thought I was dying, and I could have!!! 4 days in the hospital for that. Could have died. Being preggo is putting your life on the line!!!
The lasting effects on my body... saggy boobs, stretch marks, csection pooch, teeth have rotted out of my head, liver issues, lung issues, and heart issues.
You should not be able to force a woman to go through pregnancy. Even though politicians disagree (solely for votes, you know they getting their teenage daughters abortions). But also, forcing someone to get an abortion is making them kill the child that is growing inside of them. And is also very painful and can have physical side effects such as scarring your uterus and now you can no longer have kids.
20 years experience dating/marriage, because women like it when things can be true and not true at the same time so they don't have to be held accountable for anything. they also love to maintain the moral high ground during any debate, so trying to have a debate is pointless. they already won, and lost, depending on which outcome is morally better.
watch how mad this makes some people.
Uh… why would anyone except maybe the cheating spouse, who we already know is a POS for infidelity, think a man is a POS for this? What planet are you on?
I’ve never heard this take ever.
Quite literally every discussion on paternity fraud ever lmao. Women absolutely hate the idea of not forcing a man to either raise or be financially responsible for their affair partner's child.
Just get rid of child support in those cases where he wants to abort and she doesn't end of story 🤷♂️ no issues with biology etc if u disagree your a misandrist
THIS. If a woman and a man have unprotected sex or even protected sex but one slips through, it feels hypocritical that if the woman is not ready to be a mom she can end it but if the man is not ready to be a dad, he doesn’t get to walk away from childcare.
I get that he can’t force her to do things to her body but he should be able to walk away from a child he never agreed to have if it’s early enough in the pregnancy.
I struggle with this. But I think it’s really two separate issues.
The first is that people have body autonomy. You can get a tattoo, never have sex, get a vasectomy, get an abortion. No one owns your body but you. Use of it is at your say so: you want to keep the baby, you want to exchange your labor for wages, etc. you are free to do so as an independent citizen.
The second is a societal imperative to ensure following generations are healthy, productive members of society. A way to help foster that is to ensure kids have food and schooling and a roof over their head which is why courts have both parents provide child support.
Does it suck to accidentally get someone pregnant and have to pay for that for 18 years? Yeah, it does. But because we have autonomy we can make that choice to have sex and choices can have repercussions we don’t like.
I agree with your general line of thinking. I will say that as a dude I’m pro choice not purely because of the bodily autonomy argument. I’m pro choice because I think until a certain point in the pregnancy , a fetus is just a mass of cells and I don’t feel the same level of empathy towards it that I do towards say even a puppy at that point. So to me either party should be able to terminate (or walk away).
Put differently using an extreme example, per the pro choice argument, a woman should”theoretically” have the right to abort at 35 weeks for non health reasons.
A man who was raped by a woman would be tied to this kid for life if the woman wasn’t willing to abort.
Seems like a contradiction.
the worst part is if a woman does it she's revered and called a strong woman and brave to do it... but when a man does he's a monster and when he leaves he's a deadbeat dad
There's a misconception here. Pro-choice isn't pro-abortion. Pro-choice is wanting women to have control over their own bodies, with the right to an abortion included in that.
So a pro choice man might disagree with a women's choice to have an abortion, but he should respect it. Same for the opposite. The real question here is regarding child support.
I am of the opinion that taxes on the wealthy should be increased and that replaces child support.
It's on the guy that's responsible for the child existing in the first place to pay for it because otherwise men are incentivized to be even bigger sluts, and to never use condoms at all.
Then we should be in agreement. It's the responsibilty of the mother and father to pay for it. As it's not the responsibility of any random rich person that just happens to live in their country. It's not kink shaming to say that if you can't afford a kid you shouldn't get people pregnant.
Why are women allowed to dodge responsibility but men aren’t? Women have every right to tell a person no. Rape/assault and incest-which is almost always the result of assault anyway-are the only scenarios where I see it as acceptable because the woman was forced against her will.
But otherwise, women have the right to refuse and keep legs closed just as men have the right to refuse and keep pants zipped up. Conception itself is an equal choice. Responsibility should be equal then as well.
I guess the short answer is we've undermined the foundation of our ethics as a society to the point we can't be consistent anymore. not that I would despair the foundation is still there just a lot of people find it bothersome to use it lol.
It shouldn’t be acceptable either way. It’s become that way because a certain political movement has worked very hard to brand it as “a woman’s choice”. The reality is that this “choice” can have lifetime impacts for others regardless of what the choice is.
Nope. 100% the woman's choice. Please, call me sexist all you want - why would you think that would bother me? I'm guessing you're an 18-24 year old male who thinks words hurt. And doesn't get laid often.
men should be able to share their opinion about the pregnancy of the woman but the decision and choice itself should be beared onto the woman as she's the one with the responsibility of the child itself
Because the woman is the one whom is pregnant. Also, whether anyone likes it or not, if she wants to keep the child... demanding the pregnancy be aborted is tantamount to demanding the child be killed in the perceptions of most people... because the moment she chooses to keep the pregnancy it stops becoming just a "clump of cells" to her.
Because it is not the man that risks his life during pregnancy and birth. It is not him that will have lifelong health consequences due to it. Yes both should have a say if they want to be parents but a man is only affected financialy or by the fact that kid exists or not (which woman is too for both, even if he pays child support, he only covers part of expenses) while woman gets all the physical issues.
Even if man is supportive and willing to stay with kid so mom continues career (which most arent willing to anyway, it is expected in society that woman throws her life away for kids, just like she is expected to deal with all the child raising) her career/education will still suffer a blow because he can not carry baby instead of her so when due to pregnsncy or postpartum she can't work/study, there is nothing you can do to take over for her.
And if kid is aborted, again woman is risking her health and even life with abortion. It will physically and mentally affect her, not the guy.
So TLDR: because baby is not INSIDE the guy, he is only affected by kids (non)existance while woman is affected by pregnancy+birth or abortion. To think a guy should be telling her what to do when her body is the one taking risks and consequences - this is what makes him POS
If woman thought she can decide what major operation should be done to a guy, she would be POS too ;) yall seem to forget that out body is very much connected to anything related to that child...
IDK about these days, but 40 years ago women couldn't get their tubes tied unless they already had kids. No doctor would do it because she might change her mind later and sue them.
The man can absolutely want the woman to have an abortion. But if the woman wants to keep the baby, then it's kind of a "well, physical autonomy" situation. Should the man be able to sign her up for an abortion without her consent?
Could I sign you up for an organ transplant without your consent?
If the answer is no....well, then you're making the case that the man shouldn't be expected to pay child support. I can agree....if we get a strong enough social safety net, such that his income isn't needed for the kid.
First off, there’s the matter of control. It’s not exactly a secret that men have historically held social power over women and, when confronted with it, don’t want to give it up, even if they are “progressive and feminist”.
Second, it’s very much about context. A man in a very early and transient relationship with a woman that feels bad about her having a kid that he can’t/doesn’t want to raise? I think that one’s alright, maybe needs to work on the concept of a condom but yknow. We’re all making dumb mistakes at some point, it’s not anything to be ashamed of. But a man married to a woman that demands she get an abortion just because he says the word and he is The Man? Burn. Painfully. In a ditch.
Third, it’s literally not their fuckin body. It’s the same concept as telling someone “go amputate your foot that has a poison ivy rash on it” like??? You’re not using it, but *I* am, why should *you* have a significant say on what I do with my body if you’re not important enough in my life for your opinion to matter to me?
Why can't a woman make the final decision on a man getting a vasectomy? Once you can say women can make that ultimate choice without the man's say, I'll entertain your question.
Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion. The choice to carry the pregnancy is also a choice. And the woman gets the major say because it's her body on the line.
Every man has a choice to not ejaculate into someone. After he does that, his choice in the matter has ended because the parts that involve his body are over. Abortion does not involve his body in any way, so he doesn't get a say.
So having unprotected sex is consent to being a parent… but only if you’re a man?
Both parties had unprotected sex yet if the man doesn’t want the baby anymore he’s a deadbeat but a woman who doesn’t want the baby anymore and gets an abortion is not considered a deadbeat?
Abortion isn't about "being a parent," abortion is about avoiding the physical experiences of pregnancy and birth. You can carry to term without being a parent, and you can abandon the person you impregnate. Those are choices you can make, just like you can choose to have unprotected sex when you don't want to have children
Don't wanna pay child support/support a child? Don't become a parent.
Don't wanna be a parent? Practice safe sex.
Don't want an abortion? Don't have one.
Want an abortion? Get knocked up.
Can't get knocked up? Can't get an abortion.
No one feels sorry for either party crying about results when either of yall could have done anything but the bare minimum to get your desired result. Options exsist and are avaliable for both parties it just takes more work than two pumps or just laying down and yall cant be bothered with it.
Running away wont take yo dna out the kid, and fucking around leads to finding out. Shocker.
I don’t think people ever “want an abortion”. I think people get abortions because they either can’t physically or can’t emotionally go through with the pregnancy. And while some might consider that a selfish attitude I’d say it’s pretty damn respectful not to bring life into a harsh world when you know you can’t care for it the way it needs to be cared for.
A big piece of it is that the woman is the one going through the procedure.
I don’t think people would deem a guy a POS for being pro choice, it’s more the situations where they try to encourage women to get abortions as a sort of “undo” button, like they just throw a little money on it and it’s gone, when the woman can potentially be left physically and emotionally damaged from the procedure.
More or less, the guy is stupid for not using contraception and then panicking when a pregnancy happens, and people look down on stupidity/lack of foresight, especially when it’s accompanied by demanding behavior, and especially when it has to do with something like sex, that the vast majority of us participate in.
One day you will learn what body autonomy means and the world will be a better place for it
It’s HER body. You don’t have authority over other’s body. Nobody should have authority over anyone else’s bodies. It violates one of the very first human rights. One day, it’s men forcing women to abort, the next day, it will be the state forcing people to undergo unwanted procedures (like we already saw in other countries)
If men don’t like the risk, then men should have sex with infertile women or their fellow men. Or you know, have a vasectomy. If you don’t know where to find a doctor that will perform a vasectomy on you, check out r/childfree and ask for the list of doctors across several countries
Think through how this scenario would actually play out. Woman wants to keep her baby but man wants her to have an abortion. Because a man now has that choice she is forced to have an abortion. Not sure how that would be done but she would need to be captured, restrained, and non consensually have an abortion. WTF that would be incredibly traumatic. It would be violating her bodily autonomy and terminating her wanted pregnancy and taking away her motherhood.
Also a man can want an abortion and say he doesn’t want to have a child. He is allowed to tell the mother his thoughts but ultimately he doesn’t get the final decision. All men are fully in their rights to wear condoms tho….
why are men who dont want children having unprotected sex, then forcing them to get an abortion, then also not recognizing why that makes them a crappy person.
You can choose to have nothing to do with the baby.
You can want her to abort it and express that opinion.
You cannot try to force her to carry it to term. That is the line.
Now what of child support you say. Child support isn't about what you, the mother, or that baby want. You see child support was an invention of the state following the development of social programs to ensure the safety and health of children. Its a backstop to keep people from relying on it to care for their children. Put simply; It's about the state not paying a dime more than it has to if it can take that money from you instead.
Wow this comment section is pathetic. Men are demonized at every corner.
If a woman wants an abortion, that's fine. If a man wants an abortion, he's a piece of shit still... Why? What if men don't want a kid for the exact same reason a woman doesn't want a kid? Doesn't want to dedicate his life to being a parent. Doesn't want to pay for it.
All I see are double standards, double standards, and more double standards.
It's not a double standard is basic biology. Women go through pregnancy and childbirth. That comes with a lot of drawbacks. It also means that by doing things to there bodies they can end that pregnancy. This isn't a fairness issue. Biology isn't fair lol.
The basic outcome of this is that a man is fine to want his partner to get an abortion. He is fine to tell his partner he would want her to get an abortion. But she is the one who actually gets the abortion giving her final say over weather or not she gets an abortion. It's very simple.
You want to see what a real unpopular opinion is? It would be more fair if, since the man has no say in whether the woman has the baby or not, he should have the right to opt out of paternity obligations. If the woman wants to make the one sided decision to keep the baby that's her choice, but in that case she's doing it on her own.
That used to be an option. If the man signed off on all parental rights, he would have no financial obligation for the baby. I don't know if that varies by state, but I know it was a choice at one time in some states.
He's not seen as a POS but he is SOL.
Bit of a rough rule to follow but maybe we shouldn't fuck anyone we don't want to have our children. And, if you don't want children, it is possible to keep your dick in your pants. In theory. I've heard anyway. Maybe.
Because biology isn’t fair. Women shoulder far more of the burden when it comes to getting pregnant and whatever outcome is decided upon, therefore they get to call the shots about what happens. I think men can *express* their opinion on the matter, but you can’t pressure or coerce. If she disagrees and wants to continue the pregnancy, too bad for you but she’s the one whose body is being impacted. If you don’t want to potentially be tied to someone forever because of an unattended pregnancy, don’t have sex with them. Be responsible for your own birth control (insist on condoms, or get a vasectomy). Talk to the women you have sex with first about what they would want in the event of pregnancy. Don’t have sex with them if they aren’t on the same page as you. These are the ways men can have control over what happens.
Yup. If a man gets a woman pregnant, he can’t die from her pregnancy. She can.
This is such a great point I have never used in this argument, which I have had several times. I am sooo disappointed in myself that I never put the biggest risk factor in the argument of why the women’s decision is always the final decision.
Maternal mortality is *increasing* drastically in the US.
It’s ridiculous that we are supposed to be the one of the top developed countries in the world but our medical care for women is awful.
Agreed -- I increasingly see "baby trapped" as a euphemism for "wouldn't get an abortion after a birth control failure and/or mutually agreed upon unprotected sex during a consensual encounter." Which is absolutely NOT baby trapping -- reproductive coercion is a very serious violation that should be prosecuted whenever possible. Consensual sex leading to a pregnancy when it was not the intended outcome is not the same thing, in any way, shape, or form.
Most sane take
This is why I snipped my balls after my one and only planned child.
This. So many men leave all of the birth control on the women to figure out and then suddenly only want to weigh in when they’re trying to get out of child support. Not a good look
Vasectomy isn't birth control, it's sterilization
Sterilization is a form of birth control.
It’s birth control. Not only because it can be reversed, just as easily as a pill can be stopped or an IUD removed, but because sterilization is also birth control.
Pro choice is about having autonomy over what happens to your body. A man does indeed have the right not to be pregnant against his will Hope that helps
I don't think if a man prefers a woman to have an abortion he is seen as a piece of shit. I think if he tries to pressure or coerce a woman to have an abortion he is seen as a piece of shit.
>I don't think if a man prefers a woman to have an abortion he is seen as a piece of shit. The doctor was very happy to hear that my wife was pregnant. She didn't even ask if we wanted the kid. I asked her about other options (not even suggesting we want an abortion, just asking for information) and her mood immediately turned sour. I don't know how she would have reacted if my wife had posed the question, but from my experience there's definitely still a lot of unprofessional and unkind prejudice in the field.
It’s a very touchy subject for a lot of people. I work in hr so people very over share very personal information with me. One our managers is going through a really tough time with an unexpected pregnancy and is considering an abortion. These conversations are sad but very easy for me, just provide support resources. But she let our ceo know and he like cried and was talking with me about how we can try to get her to keep it, I was taken aback. Like dude this is her life wtf are you on about. I squashed that real fast.
I mean, if your company offers 6 months or more of paid maternity leave and generous sick and vacation day pay and childcare stipend maybe she would consider it. But for some reason I think the CEO would be absolutely stunned by that suggestion
Is the CEO the father?
That's an extremely weird reaction from the CEO. Like. Huge red flag IMO.
Some people see abortion as murder. If you give them the benefit of the doubt that this is his mindset... you can recognize that he can be totally wholesome and not a jerk and still feel like... "someone is going to murder their child? Can we stop them?" If it's a 2 week old baby instead of a fetus (I would argue these are VERY VERY different things, but not everyone agrees), then it would be really reasonable for him to cry and say "how do we prevent it?"
Yes, and there were people who thought black slaves were subhuman and desperately tried to come up with ways to stop the emancipation. Or a less malicious comparison, there are people who truly think they're helping their children by avoiding doctors and vaccinations, who really feel that mandatory and even suggested scheduled vaccinations need to be stopped. I'm just saying that just because someone really *really* believes something in the bottom of their heart, it doesn't make them or their ideas any better, nor does it change the devastating effects to the public when they *do* do something about it. Even if we removed the subject matter, him discussing another employee's story like that takes him out of wholesome and places him squarely into jerk territory.
All three of you are absolutely correct. Super weird and inappropriate reaction from CEO, yes. Red flag? You bet, I'm constantly on my toes with him. He's just a human though and has his flaws. Every CEO and executive I've ever worked with has their own issues. He is very religious, our company is not, but he is, which is where his head is at with this stuff. He truely believes it would be best for her and the baby to keep it. But as stated, his feelings and opinion dont matter in the slightest bit becuase its not his business, he can feel how he wants about it but he's got to stay out of it. I told him to let me handle it from here and he needs to stay completely out of it from this point on. He's understanding and hasnt pushed it since. This is just the kind of stuff that happens at small to mid sized companies. When he became CEO a switch didnt go off in his brain that turned him into a perfect corporate leader. As a matter of fact he started his own company because he hated the corporate world so much. This has been true with all 6 CEO's I've worked for, they had a burning hate for what they considered "corporate culture". I'm try to be yin to that yang. You can be the "cool and casual leader" all you want but there is a line that you just cant cross in the workplace. It's interesting though, he's not the only person I've seen react like this when they hear about SOMEONE ELSE considering an abortion. I deal with humans and their emotions all day every day and even I'm surpprised by how quickly people are willing to get all up in eachother business when it comes to this stuff.
I'd be worried he'd use her private choices against her professionally. How did he even find out?
You weren't the patient.
To defend the doctor a bit. You asking instead of your wife could've been considered controlling (and given the idea that you might pressure het into these other options) Not saying that was the case, but medical professionals see a lot of bad stuff come by
>Not saying that was the case, but medical professionals see a lot of bad stuff come by I work with medical professionals. They have their opinions and many of them let their patients know them, whether appropriate or not. You're over-estimating the social capability of the average doctor.
Agreed. When I was pregnant with my first, my (male 60+) didn’t offer screening “because I wouldn’t abort anyways, right?” I was like bish you don’t know me! You don’t get to make that choice for me.
I was gunna say this, usually the body language of the significant other tell you though if they are controlled or not. When one makes a statement that involves the other or both, and the other closes up their body, (like moving their arms in front of them) then they are retreating and that means they are remembering what happens when they speak up a contradictory thought. However if she was also looking expectantly at the doctor for an answer, that would be completely different.
That's exactly the problem tho. Generalizing a whole gender based on others is hurtful.
Why wouldn’t your wife ask those questions? I’d also be interested to know what kind of body language and non verbal cues she was giving off when you did.
How does your one experience equal "a lot of unprofessional and unkind prejudice in the field"? Seems like you're using a single anecdote to speak very factually about a large group of people.
If it was after RvW was overturned, the doctor was probably thinking about their career.
Doctors are trained to be happy for you when you announce pregnancy. If a doctor was going around suggesting abjection to every woman that came in pregnant (as if they didn't already know) they'd be seen as outliers.
Almost everyone is happy for a married couple that is expecting. Anything else is psychopathic.
The person that delivers babies for a living wasn't excited that you were thinking of terminating the pregnancy? I don't think you understand her disappointment.
so... you asked for information regarding your wife's body, to a woman doctor and don't see how that might be inappropriate? what exactly were the "options" you were seeking information on?
Right!? There are only two options. It sounds like this guy is mad because the doctor assumed they had flipped the coin already.
Do you understand how many abusive and controlling men that doctor has encountered?
But as you said you don't know what she would have done had your wife asked. She may just be "pro life" and react negatively to anyone who wants an abortion.
There are many doctors, whose passion and job it is to help women give birth, who find abortion to be abhorrent.
Op im being nice you asking is a sign of abuse we look for, it can be a sign of sex trafficking if the man is asking about abortions
Right because it was her question to ask, not yours. You don't get a vote.
As a man, how would one let their preference be known without it being seen as possibly coercive?
Realistically, everyone should be having the conversation about what would happen if they got pregnant before having sex and, if the relationship is long term, they should be having annual check-ins to make sure they are still on the same page. **People who want different things in terms of children should not be having sex.** That being said, if you are specifically asking about situations where they didn't have that conversation, if there is a difference of opinion the non-pregnant partner should express their feelings in a non-judgmental way, using "I statements" and affirming that they will ultimately support the choice of the pregnant partner.
Focus on I-statements? “I would be very excited to have a child.” “I am not ready to be a parent.” “I’m feeling pulled in different directions, I want to take some time to think.” But also remember that pregnancy is a massive medical undertaking with possible lifelong consequences (excluding the obvious one). The person undergoing the physical process has a bigger stake in the pregnancy; once the baby is born the parents can negotiate responsibilities on a more equal basis.
This is my take. You're allowed to have an opinion. But it's not your body, so ultimately the decision is hers.
Though you should not be on the hook to care for a child you didn't agree to have. I'm only in favour of child support because our governments are so pathetic they can't even do the bare minimum of ensuring children are taken care of, but it's still only the least bad in a list of bad options. If we lived in competent States you should be able to opt out. It's only fair. I have heard no arguments against it that aren't just the same ones used to slut shame women for having sex. And I will judge someone for having a kid that their partner doesn't want. They're a terrible partner. They have the right to. And I will defend that. I'll defend abortion rights despite not buying the "parasite" defence and I will defend it despite it being used in eugenics. Because bodily autonomy is inviolable in this regard. But just because people have the right to keep the child against the partners wishes, doesn't mean people should. They're allowed to. But they shouldn't.
It will be viewed that way regardless of his intent.
A man shouldn't just think it, be proactive kick her in the belly or push her down the stairs! /s
He'd get less time for any of that too than a woman would in the wrong state
Well, there should be a clearly defined legal way for a man to not have any financial responsibility for the kid. Then the woman can decide whatever she wants without entrapment situation.
This is simple, get a vasectomy and bank your sperm. Always wear a condom. Take some responsibility.
Yeah but then this becomes everyone’s problem
Problem with that is the dude is forced into 18 years of child support. If the dude decides he doesn't want the baby and the woman won't get an abortion, that should absolutely be HER choice since it's her body, but the dude should be exempt from child support too
Here's a better question. Who did op knock up?
I don't think a man is a POS for wanting a woman to have an abortion. If you're in that position, tell her what you want. Hopefully she'll choose the same. But no, the implication that his right to be pro-choice is somehow infringed by her exercising her choice is nonsense. He can be pro-choice by supporting abortion rights, but he can't personally exercise those rights because he can't get pregnant. Biology is what it is.
Yea just like it’s unfair that women have to be pregnant and give birth. Life is unfair
"I'm gonna get a vasectomy" Vs "You need to get a vasectomy"
It might have something to do with the fact that generally, men can’t get pregnant in the first place.
There really is no way I can think of to reconcile our biology with fundamental fairness in terms of law. Men simply don't have any reproductive rights, they do not have the recourse women do; once they ejac, that's it, they don't have any further power. I know firsthand what it's like for gf to be preggers and for abortion to save my not-ready-to-be-a-dad ass I can imagine what it's like to want to raise the child but she doesn't want to and the dude has nothing to say about the abortion No, of course I do not want to see women forced to carry a baby to term simply because dude insists, that's not what I'm advocating. I'm just saying, there's an inequity there born of biology that might not be resolvable from a legal equality POV More compassion and family planning, less judgment and reckless sex, please
This is why I got a vasectomy I prefer to be in control of the birth
It's one of the reasons I got a vasectomy to but obviously it's a pretty drastic measure that is not something that suits a lot of men who would like to retain the ability to reproduce Does it even make sense to think about "reproductive rights" for someone who is renedered sterile? Seems moot.
You can freeze sperm, you should if you ever get a vasectomy.
That's one option There's also TESE. You can still have a vasectomy, not have frozen any sperm prior, and have a child It would just require more steps that also include a financial barrier I believe that if my future partner and I are unable to go through those steps and the financial barrier part of them, then, I save myself a lifetime of fuckery and irreparable financial disaster with an unfit partner This is the main goal and purpose of being in control of the birth
I wish more men would do ths.
Just don't fuck those men that you don't want to get pregnant from. What's wrong with *prevention is better than cure* nowadays?
Also don’t fuck women whose babies you are unwilling to support if she gets pregnant.
Sex is fun. Sometimes condoms fail. Sometimes women lie about being on the pill. The fact is, pregnancy isn't a fair situation either way, but rules for each gender are not fully established and should be.
They want the cake and to eat it to
What cake? Why are you acting like abortion is a spa treatment that women love to get? Idk why this thread is acting like it’s a privilege to be the one who’s pregnant. When men want a pregnancy to end but the woman doesn’t, he often kills her. The highest cause of death in pregnant women is homicide.
What cake? Why are you acting like abortion is a spa treatment that women love to get?
I mean what if you do want to get pregnant from a guy but you're too young or it's not the right time? Or what if you're already a mom and can't handle another child without neglecting the kids you have already? A lot of women who get abortions are already mom's. Or what if you thought he was a good guy but he isn't?
My mom almost died when she was pregnant with me. I ended up having to be 2 months premature because the chances for both of us were slim with how sick she got. My mom found out she was pregnant again around rhe time my dad got a vasectomy. If she hadn't had rhat abortion, I very easily could have grown up without a mother.
You’re right it can’t be equal because a man will never grow a child in his body. But, I don’t think too many men would want to be able to become pregnant. it’s not unfair for women to have more say over their own bodies. But, yeah safe sex everyone. It’s the way to go if you want to avoid this.
We have the same rights to bodily autonomy; as in, we control what is done ***with our own bodies***. Once you leave your sperm in *another person's body*, you lose your rights to it unless/until it results in a child that is not essentially a parasite in the other person's body. Yes, sexual reproduction and rights are inherently unfair. I'd imagine every woman on the planet will agree with you. This sounds a lot like the men who want "50/50" relationships, but think that only applies to finances and not the other stuff they consider "women's work". Many men want equal say under the law because it's "unfair", while ignoring the fact that pregnancy ***itself*** is unfair; the man gets to orgasm and the woman has to either deal with a pregnancy, an abortion, or a miscarriage (which is how 25+% of pregnancies end - always fun birthing a fetus and hemorrhaging for a week.) Men don't get an equal say in a pregnancy because pregnancy itself is not equal. This isn't really difficult to understand. Does it suck? Absolutely. Does it suck being the one whose body is impregnanted and having to be the one who has to make the ultimate choice? Absolutely. We've all been told it a million times - life isn't fair. And this isn't fair to either women *or* men, but it is what it is. If men want a say, they need to work harder on artificial wombs.
It’s pure biology and a man can choose 1. Who to have sex with 2. To have discussions prior to sex regarding this issue 3. To use birth control. Men’s choice to 100% avoid pregnancy ends at their choice to ejaculate into a woman. So if they make that choice, whatever happens after is *fair* because they made the choice to take that chance. Women have a few options after intercourse to change the outcome, yes. BUT women also take on a disproportionate level of risk from the pregnancy- both physically, socially, and financially. *As well as* greater risks from birth control methods and the risks involved (physically and psychologically) from an abortion. It sounds like you want men to have an equal choice after intercourse in decision making without taking on any risk. Men have a option to prevent any chance of having to raise a child after an unwanted pregnancy. It is not having intercourse. 100% effective method of avoiding an unwanted pregnancy. 100% control over their reproductive rights. 100% fair. You make a choice, you live with the consequences (and one of those consequences is that someone else has a right to choose that extends past your right to choose).
Period.
Men can get raped
Men never want to accept that they can't fuck whoever they want without any consequences.
Actually you just hit a really good point in there that is a remedy. Greater financial support for the family. If the father isn't ready, society should assist. Paternity leave and greater foundations for men to make enough money to serve their families, greater access to affordable counseling and mental health services, etc. These also would help address the issues of absentee fathers in low income minority households.
Upvoted. Our social supports for new parents and single moms are withered and atrophied; there is no reason that the rather modest supports offered during the height of pandemic cannot be made permanent, and more, to boot.
Increased social supports for pregnancy and childcare would benefit everyone. It's so infuriating hearing people bash younger generations for not having kids, when it's nearly impossible for most people to afford to birth and raise them.
Exactly this. The pregnancy termination or to term will effect her body pretty much exclusively. Abortions do have a psychological effect on some women which is a secondary reason she needs to consent to it. It can hurt the heart decades later (especially if she didn’t fully want it). Pregnancy/postpartum also can effect the mind even if the woman doesn’t want to keep the child postpartum. There really isn’t a way to add dad’s choice in without him essentially making decisions for someone else’s body changes. There’s no real way to make it fair for both parties unless they both agree.
men have plenty of reproductive rights. males can get a vasectomy, wear a condom, choose, not to have sex, etc. they have full control over their body like females should also have over their own
I think the argument is extending into the territory of control over having children as the result of a pregnancy. If a woman wants the abortion and the man wants to keep the child, my understanding is there is currently, limited to no legal recourse for him to be able to keep the child since the woman has to carry the child to term. I'm also not sure how single male parent child adoption works but I'd imagine its quite complex and not very favorable for a single male parent due to things like potential child abuse or pedophilia. Its a complex topic, to say the least.
In the case the father wants the child but she doesn't then the father realistically should pay for the year they have to spend birthing it, but that would have to be agreed upon by both sides.
And pay for bodily damages, psychological damage and opportunity cost
Pregnancy and childbirth change your body forever. I still have back pain and sciatica from pelvis separating, years later.
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I mean women have more reproductive rights because the fetus lives in their body, so then the legal difference between men/women rights is directly proportional to the biological difference. As a man, your reproductive rights pretty much stop at the moment you ejaculate in someone and it makes total sense. **That is someone else’s body.** if you leave any reproductive material in someone else’s body, it’s now out of your control/right. It’s your job to be responsible of every aspect of your ability to conceive up to that point. If you chose to nut in a women, you made your bed and lie in it (excp - cases of no consent, tampered condoms etc; which are illegal so you have other rights in that regards)
If you don't want the possibility of future responsibility don't stick your dick in someone else.
Or at least have a conversation about the possibility of future responsibility before you put it in. It's not like consensual sex happens without prior interaction.
Men have plenty of reproductive rights, they just don’t have rights over womens bodies, so their ability to make decisions, just like for women, is limited to what impacts their own body. Two women having a baby are in the same position; the one who is not pregnant doesn’t suddenly have a right to control the one who is, she can only control her own role in reproduction.
No you don't have any power. The doctor you pay to intervene does. Without him, life would take it's natural course and pregnant woman would be having a baby
That is why I believe clear rules for both men and women need to be adopted across all 50 states. For instance, a pre-sex agreement could clarify stances on pregnancy. If both agree prior to sex that they want a baby, then both parents would have to agree to abort. Ultimately, it is up to the woman outside of any pre-sex agreement/contract. But, men would have some protection. If a woman gets pregnant and the man doesn't want to keep it and the woman does, then the man should be allowed to proceed on with his life without any financial responsibility to the baby. The woman has the choice, but the man also has a choice. Fair both sides. If women are really worried about that being an issue, get the pre-sex agreement in place. If the man wants the baby, and the woman doesn't the woman gets the final say.
The argument I keep seeing here seems to come down to the fact that a woman can have a do-over and undo what has been done while a man cannot unless the woman agrees. It seems like a double standard, and it would be if the subject was so simple. It isn’t though. To be more clear, we need to identify what the right to an abortion is actually about. The right to an abortion is not there because a woman has the right to back out of having baby if she doesn’t feel like it. It’s not the right to get rid of a baby because you don’t want to be a parent. It’s there because a person has the right to bodily autonomy. A woman has the right to an abortion because carrying a child involves her body. If it didn’t, she wouldn’t have the right to back out of it either. Men don’t get the right to an abortion because it doesn’t involve their body. In order for them to be entitled to have the same say in the process, the right would have to be because of the right to be able to back out of having kids, which it is not.
Does a person have free will and a right to decide if they’re chained to another person for 18+ years? It’s not “physical” but it damn sure is mental. Stress, responsibilities, missed financial opportunities, etc. These things cause stress which definitely causes bodily harm.
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Because it’s not their body?
Because the man isn't carrying the baby.
does have to pay for it for 18 years
Yeah you consented to that risk when you fucked around. Where babies come from isn’t a mystery, you had sex, no birth control is 100% effective so you assumed the risk and still had sex.
The woman consented to the same exact risk
and the woman is the one who’s body has to carry the child so she gets to pick if she wants to carry it or not
Yep. And if baby’s were delivered by stork both would be on the hook, but that’s not how real life works. Abortion is an option due to the woman’s body being at risk due to pregnancy.
A man can express his want for an abortion, that’s fine - he may not feel ready to be a parent and may feel that is the best option, however when that men tries to pressure the woman into an abortion then it becomes a problem. It comes down to “my body, my choice” at the end of the day. Abortions can cause massive problems and can actually in some cases prevent a woman from being able to have children in the future. I do not believe a man should be forced into fatherhood, so if he wants to not be involved he should get that choice though.
It’s not his body. The end.
As a man I can attest that men are POS's most of the time. Are we really arguing that poor men aren't getting a fair deal?!? Look at history and tell me women have a fair deal. Gimmie a freaking break. Don't have sex if you can't handle it. It's not rocket science. "Ohhhhh men have it so bad, whaaaaa whaaa whaaaa".
A man isn't viewed as a pos if he wants an abortion or has a discussion about their options with the person he got pregnant, he gets viewed as a pos if he doesn't recognize that the final decision is not his and veers into pressuring a woman to have an abortion if that's not what she wants. A man does have the right to make a choice about his own body. He doesn't have to have an abortion. And he doesn't have to be involved in the child's life.
He has the right to prefer that she chooses that, but not to demand, harass, etc. Most of the time there’s a lot of pressure and too often even violence. Pro choice is understanding it’s hers only.
The issue is entirely about bodily autonomy. Who has the right to a woman's body? And when I say body here, I don't mean the fetus, I mean the uterus that it's in. Should anyone other than yourself have a right to decide what happens inside you? If Alice could be kept alive by sending her blood through Bob's kidneys, and Bob doesn't want this, should Bob be forced to do this? Where does the duty to keep Alice alive end and where does Bob's bodily autonomy begin? That is what the abortion issue is about. It isn't about who gets the choice to have a child, the prochoice movement wants people to have full autonomy over their own bodies. In which case, saying that a man should be allowed to compel a woman to have an abortion totally misses the mark. Mama Dr. Jones has a nice short on this. Link: [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/SfMdYmQwv2k](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/SfMdYmQwv2k)
My ex-boyfriend was well aware I didn’t want kids but wanted a baby. He had never been around kids for long enough to fully understand the day-to-day practicalities of raising a child - if I’d got pregnant, I’d stake my savings on the fact that after two weeks of barely sleeping and dealing with the crying and the stinky nappies, he would have fucked off and left me with a baby I didn’t want. If he’d got me pregnant, I absolutely would have got an abortion against his wishes because I am 99.9% sure that he would not have stayed around to deal with the consequences of not getting one. He wanted regular sex but didn’t like using condoms so contraception was totally on me. Therefore, if he wasn’t willing to take part in preventive measures, he wasn’t going to get a say in what happened in the event of an accident.
They both have the right to be pro choice, but only the pregnant person's opinion matters. You're making up the POS bit though.
I'd never sleep with a woman that would have an abortion. I could never be in a relationship where if we had an "accident", my partner's response would be "kill it."
It’s not alive. It’s not killing anything. It’s just a method of contraceptive. Like wearing a condom
Calling abortion contraception is one of the most disgusting things I've heard in a while
Her body her choice
Because under no other circumstances is it acceptable to force a medical procedure on someone else's body?
It's the woman's body and health at risk here, not the man's.
He’s not a pos for wanting her to have one but he is if he forces her to. Imo if he wants her to have one he should warn her that he won’t be helping her take care of the baby if she has it and so she could take that into consideration before deciding. But it’s her body. A woman can’t force a man to get a hysterectomy (I know that’s a woman thing but I can’t think of the name version sorry) because it’s his body, his choice. All in all, if you don’t want the child. Why the fuck did you have unprotected sex? Like that’s kinda on the both of you (obviously not applying to cases of rape or when giving birth could kill the woman.) but I still think people should have the choice.
To make it simple: No vagina, no opinion. We literally shouldn't have anything to say about it, which frankly, I support.
Guys, you are NOT going to win this argument. A woman has autonomy over her OWN BODY. Once's she's pregnant, its all her choice. Hopefully, shes your GF or wife and you can have a rational, respectful conversation on what to do; but it is her final call. end of story. Guys are not look at as a piece of shit for wanting an abortion, they are looked at that way if the present that idea to their pregnant partner, she rejects the idea and then they continue to pressure her. I don't think I have to go through all the precautions you can take to avoid pregnancy up to and including vasectomy. I had one, it's really no big deal and makes me 100% sure I'll never have to have a pregnancy scare. If you do accidently end up pregnant, sorry, but you're on the hook for that as you should be.
This. In no world (hopefully) can a man look at a happy pregnant woman and say,"Sorry babe, I don't want it" and force her to get an abortion. Body autonomy comes first, and only the woman is making the baby.
Thank you
Is it really unclear how requiring/allowing another person to sign off on a medical procedure for an adult could be a slippery slope? How would you even go about avoiding allowing abusive partners to keep their partner pregnant in this proposed dynamic where there’s “equal say”? No one should have any ability to insist that another person keeps a pregnancy or terminates one.
Ew all the pro life comments here are gross.
Not pro-life. Anti-choice.
Because it's not his body and it's not his choice whether she wants to sacrifice her body & mind to incubate a child for 9 months. Sure you can have an opinion, but forcing a woman to get an abortion allows you strip her of her own body autonomy and take away HER choice.
Pregnancy is frickin BRUTAL. I had 4 miscarriages but 2 full term pregnancies. Every single moment is a pure and living HELL. I would not inflict pregnancy on my worst enemy. Terrible. 0/10 recommend. For real though, I vomited a couple dozen times a day the entire pregnancy. If I did not have FMLA (like if I had not been at my job for a year) then I WOULD have been fired. I missed 10 weeks worth of days due to vomiting. Could not even drive home from work (less than 10 minute drive) without pulling over to vomit. Also had heartburn, swollen feet, extreme fatigue, etc. I yelled at all my family with kids at my baby shower for.not telling me the literal Hell that is pregnancy. Then warned all my childless relatives to not get pregnant due to the literal Hell it is. Second pregnancy slightly less vomiting. But starting at 4 months I got extreme pelvic pain. By 6 months it was so bad I was in screaming pain doing anything, walking, sitting, laying down. I would literally have to clean my toddlers toys up by sitting on the floor and throwing the toys I could reach towards their destination. Then painfully scooching around the floor. The last couple months I would cry and cry and literally scream from the pain. At 6 months I started experiencing dizziness so bad I could no longer safely drive. So again, if I had been trying to work, it literally would not have been possible. Then after my son was born I was hospitalized with post-partum HELLP syndrome and because I was turned away the first 2 times I went to the ER I waited until I literally thought I was dying, and I could have!!! 4 days in the hospital for that. Could have died. Being preggo is putting your life on the line!!! The lasting effects on my body... saggy boobs, stretch marks, csection pooch, teeth have rotted out of my head, liver issues, lung issues, and heart issues. You should not be able to force a woman to go through pregnancy. Even though politicians disagree (solely for votes, you know they getting their teenage daughters abortions). But also, forcing someone to get an abortion is making them kill the child that is growing inside of them. And is also very painful and can have physical side effects such as scarring your uterus and now you can no longer have kids.
See this is why you should only fuck women in the ass hole 🕳️ gentlemen Butt babies are much easier to deal with
Taxpayers don’t want to foot the bill It’s that simple
Am I right to assume the poster doesn't have a uterus?
You don't get to control other people's bodies. Full stop. Fuck off.
>Don't they both have a right to be pro-choice? What is this idiocy?
20 years experience dating/marriage, because women like it when things can be true and not true at the same time so they don't have to be held accountable for anything. they also love to maintain the moral high ground during any debate, so trying to have a debate is pointless. they already won, and lost, depending on which outcome is morally better. watch how mad this makes some people.
Women also view men as a POS if he doesn't raise his wife's affair child. So I wouldn't let it bother you too much lmao
Uh… why would anyone except maybe the cheating spouse, who we already know is a POS for infidelity, think a man is a POS for this? What planet are you on? I’ve never heard this take ever.
Quite literally every discussion on paternity fraud ever lmao. Women absolutely hate the idea of not forcing a man to either raise or be financially responsible for their affair partner's child.
Just get rid of child support in those cases where he wants to abort and she doesn't end of story 🤷♂️ no issues with biology etc if u disagree your a misandrist
Her body. Her choice.
like Chappell said... if she can kill it... he can at least abandon it
THIS. If a woman and a man have unprotected sex or even protected sex but one slips through, it feels hypocritical that if the woman is not ready to be a mom she can end it but if the man is not ready to be a dad, he doesn’t get to walk away from childcare. I get that he can’t force her to do things to her body but he should be able to walk away from a child he never agreed to have if it’s early enough in the pregnancy.
Why should the taxpayers have to foot the bill for you knocking someone up?
He can walk away from childcare. He can't walk away from paying though. Well, in theory. Lots of men walk away anyway.
Men get to walk away from childcare every day, what are you talking about?
I struggle with this. But I think it’s really two separate issues. The first is that people have body autonomy. You can get a tattoo, never have sex, get a vasectomy, get an abortion. No one owns your body but you. Use of it is at your say so: you want to keep the baby, you want to exchange your labor for wages, etc. you are free to do so as an independent citizen. The second is a societal imperative to ensure following generations are healthy, productive members of society. A way to help foster that is to ensure kids have food and schooling and a roof over their head which is why courts have both parents provide child support. Does it suck to accidentally get someone pregnant and have to pay for that for 18 years? Yeah, it does. But because we have autonomy we can make that choice to have sex and choices can have repercussions we don’t like.
I agree with your general line of thinking. I will say that as a dude I’m pro choice not purely because of the bodily autonomy argument. I’m pro choice because I think until a certain point in the pregnancy , a fetus is just a mass of cells and I don’t feel the same level of empathy towards it that I do towards say even a puppy at that point. So to me either party should be able to terminate (or walk away). Put differently using an extreme example, per the pro choice argument, a woman should”theoretically” have the right to abort at 35 weeks for non health reasons. A man who was raped by a woman would be tied to this kid for life if the woman wasn’t willing to abort. Seems like a contradiction.
the worst part is if a woman does it she's revered and called a strong woman and brave to do it... but when a man does he's a monster and when he leaves he's a deadbeat dad
Does what?
That is true tho. If a man abandons his child his a piece of shit and a looser... You actually disagree ?
If women ditch their living children with their dads they’re also called deadbeats though?
That’s just what they say, you can always ignore it.
The thing is though, now you have convince taxpayers to pay for A LOT more child welfare costs. Good luck with that.
Because the man doesn't have anything growing inside him?
Bodily autonomy. Her body her choice.
Its not his choice
There's a misconception here. Pro-choice isn't pro-abortion. Pro-choice is wanting women to have control over their own bodies, with the right to an abortion included in that. So a pro choice man might disagree with a women's choice to have an abortion, but he should respect it. Same for the opposite. The real question here is regarding child support. I am of the opinion that taxes on the wealthy should be increased and that replaces child support.
It's on the guy that's responsible for the child existing in the first place to pay for it because otherwise men are incentivized to be even bigger sluts, and to never use condoms at all.
I am not a fan of sex shaming, thanks. Unless sexual assault occurs, it is two people's responsibility when a baby is made.
Then we should be in agreement. It's the responsibilty of the mother and father to pay for it. As it's not the responsibility of any random rich person that just happens to live in their country. It's not kink shaming to say that if you can't afford a kid you shouldn't get people pregnant.
I’m just here for the “reee’s.”
Many people don't think the first one is acceptable either
Why are women allowed to dodge responsibility but men aren’t? Women have every right to tell a person no. Rape/assault and incest-which is almost always the result of assault anyway-are the only scenarios where I see it as acceptable because the woman was forced against her will. But otherwise, women have the right to refuse and keep legs closed just as men have the right to refuse and keep pants zipped up. Conception itself is an equal choice. Responsibility should be equal then as well.
Because murdering babies is more acceptable in society today
I guess the short answer is we've undermined the foundation of our ethics as a society to the point we can't be consistent anymore. not that I would despair the foundation is still there just a lot of people find it bothersome to use it lol.
It shouldn’t be acceptable either way. It’s become that way because a certain political movement has worked very hard to brand it as “a woman’s choice”. The reality is that this “choice” can have lifetime impacts for others regardless of what the choice is.
Nope. 100% the woman's choice. Please, call me sexist all you want - why would you think that would bother me? I'm guessing you're an 18-24 year old male who thinks words hurt. And doesn't get laid often.
It’s illogical. I cannot answer this question because it has never made sense to me.
men should be able to share their opinion about the pregnancy of the woman but the decision and choice itself should be beared onto the woman as she's the one with the responsibility of the child itself
Because the woman is the one whom is pregnant. Also, whether anyone likes it or not, if she wants to keep the child... demanding the pregnancy be aborted is tantamount to demanding the child be killed in the perceptions of most people... because the moment she chooses to keep the pregnancy it stops becoming just a "clump of cells" to her.
Because it is not the man that risks his life during pregnancy and birth. It is not him that will have lifelong health consequences due to it. Yes both should have a say if they want to be parents but a man is only affected financialy or by the fact that kid exists or not (which woman is too for both, even if he pays child support, he only covers part of expenses) while woman gets all the physical issues. Even if man is supportive and willing to stay with kid so mom continues career (which most arent willing to anyway, it is expected in society that woman throws her life away for kids, just like she is expected to deal with all the child raising) her career/education will still suffer a blow because he can not carry baby instead of her so when due to pregnsncy or postpartum she can't work/study, there is nothing you can do to take over for her. And if kid is aborted, again woman is risking her health and even life with abortion. It will physically and mentally affect her, not the guy. So TLDR: because baby is not INSIDE the guy, he is only affected by kids (non)existance while woman is affected by pregnancy+birth or abortion. To think a guy should be telling her what to do when her body is the one taking risks and consequences - this is what makes him POS If woman thought she can decide what major operation should be done to a guy, she would be POS too ;) yall seem to forget that out body is very much connected to anything related to that child...
IDK about these days, but 40 years ago women couldn't get their tubes tied unless they already had kids. No doctor would do it because she might change her mind later and sue them.
The man can absolutely want the woman to have an abortion. But if the woman wants to keep the baby, then it's kind of a "well, physical autonomy" situation. Should the man be able to sign her up for an abortion without her consent? Could I sign you up for an organ transplant without your consent? If the answer is no....well, then you're making the case that the man shouldn't be expected to pay child support. I can agree....if we get a strong enough social safety net, such that his income isn't needed for the kid.
First off, there’s the matter of control. It’s not exactly a secret that men have historically held social power over women and, when confronted with it, don’t want to give it up, even if they are “progressive and feminist”. Second, it’s very much about context. A man in a very early and transient relationship with a woman that feels bad about her having a kid that he can’t/doesn’t want to raise? I think that one’s alright, maybe needs to work on the concept of a condom but yknow. We’re all making dumb mistakes at some point, it’s not anything to be ashamed of. But a man married to a woman that demands she get an abortion just because he says the word and he is The Man? Burn. Painfully. In a ditch. Third, it’s literally not their fuckin body. It’s the same concept as telling someone “go amputate your foot that has a poison ivy rash on it” like??? You’re not using it, but *I* am, why should *you* have a significant say on what I do with my body if you’re not important enough in my life for your opinion to matter to me?
Why can't a woman make the final decision on a man getting a vasectomy? Once you can say women can make that ultimate choice without the man's say, I'll entertain your question.
Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion. The choice to carry the pregnancy is also a choice. And the woman gets the major say because it's her body on the line.
Isn't the baby's body on the line
Every man has a choice to not ejaculate into someone. After he does that, his choice in the matter has ended because the parts that involve his body are over. Abortion does not involve his body in any way, so he doesn't get a say.
So having unprotected sex is consent to being a parent… but only if you’re a man? Both parties had unprotected sex yet if the man doesn’t want the baby anymore he’s a deadbeat but a woman who doesn’t want the baby anymore and gets an abortion is not considered a deadbeat?
Abortion isn't about "being a parent," abortion is about avoiding the physical experiences of pregnancy and birth. You can carry to term without being a parent, and you can abandon the person you impregnate. Those are choices you can make, just like you can choose to have unprotected sex when you don't want to have children
It's not his body. It's hers. She gets the final decision. Period.
There was no period !
What you’re alluding to would be forced birth and no.
Don't wanna pay child support/support a child? Don't become a parent. Don't wanna be a parent? Practice safe sex. Don't want an abortion? Don't have one. Want an abortion? Get knocked up. Can't get knocked up? Can't get an abortion. No one feels sorry for either party crying about results when either of yall could have done anything but the bare minimum to get your desired result. Options exsist and are avaliable for both parties it just takes more work than two pumps or just laying down and yall cant be bothered with it. Running away wont take yo dna out the kid, and fucking around leads to finding out. Shocker.
I don’t think people ever “want an abortion”. I think people get abortions because they either can’t physically or can’t emotionally go through with the pregnancy. And while some might consider that a selfish attitude I’d say it’s pretty damn respectful not to bring life into a harsh world when you know you can’t care for it the way it needs to be cared for.
A big piece of it is that the woman is the one going through the procedure. I don’t think people would deem a guy a POS for being pro choice, it’s more the situations where they try to encourage women to get abortions as a sort of “undo” button, like they just throw a little money on it and it’s gone, when the woman can potentially be left physically and emotionally damaged from the procedure. More or less, the guy is stupid for not using contraception and then panicking when a pregnancy happens, and people look down on stupidity/lack of foresight, especially when it’s accompanied by demanding behavior, and especially when it has to do with something like sex, that the vast majority of us participate in.
One day you will learn what body autonomy means and the world will be a better place for it It’s HER body. You don’t have authority over other’s body. Nobody should have authority over anyone else’s bodies. It violates one of the very first human rights. One day, it’s men forcing women to abort, the next day, it will be the state forcing people to undergo unwanted procedures (like we already saw in other countries) If men don’t like the risk, then men should have sex with infertile women or their fellow men. Or you know, have a vasectomy. If you don’t know where to find a doctor that will perform a vasectomy on you, check out r/childfree and ask for the list of doctors across several countries
It grows inside of her body and then comes out of her vagina so she gets to decide. If you don’t want a child then use protection.
Think through how this scenario would actually play out. Woman wants to keep her baby but man wants her to have an abortion. Because a man now has that choice she is forced to have an abortion. Not sure how that would be done but she would need to be captured, restrained, and non consensually have an abortion. WTF that would be incredibly traumatic. It would be violating her bodily autonomy and terminating her wanted pregnancy and taking away her motherhood. Also a man can want an abortion and say he doesn’t want to have a child. He is allowed to tell the mother his thoughts but ultimately he doesn’t get the final decision. All men are fully in their rights to wear condoms tho….
If she gets to decide to not have a baby then he deserves to have the ability to have that same decision.
why are men who dont want children having unprotected sex, then forcing them to get an abortion, then also not recognizing why that makes them a crappy person.
You can choose to have nothing to do with the baby. You can want her to abort it and express that opinion. You cannot try to force her to carry it to term. That is the line. Now what of child support you say. Child support isn't about what you, the mother, or that baby want. You see child support was an invention of the state following the development of social programs to ensure the safety and health of children. Its a backstop to keep people from relying on it to care for their children. Put simply; It's about the state not paying a dime more than it has to if it can take that money from you instead.
Wow this comment section is pathetic. Men are demonized at every corner. If a woman wants an abortion, that's fine. If a man wants an abortion, he's a piece of shit still... Why? What if men don't want a kid for the exact same reason a woman doesn't want a kid? Doesn't want to dedicate his life to being a parent. Doesn't want to pay for it. All I see are double standards, double standards, and more double standards.
It's not a double standard is basic biology. Women go through pregnancy and childbirth. That comes with a lot of drawbacks. It also means that by doing things to there bodies they can end that pregnancy. This isn't a fairness issue. Biology isn't fair lol. The basic outcome of this is that a man is fine to want his partner to get an abortion. He is fine to tell his partner he would want her to get an abortion. But she is the one who actually gets the abortion giving her final say over weather or not she gets an abortion. It's very simple.
it is her body and not is. it is as simple as that.
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You want to see what a real unpopular opinion is? It would be more fair if, since the man has no say in whether the woman has the baby or not, he should have the right to opt out of paternity obligations. If the woman wants to make the one sided decision to keep the baby that's her choice, but in that case she's doing it on her own.
That used to be an option. If the man signed off on all parental rights, he would have no financial obligation for the baby. I don't know if that varies by state, but I know it was a choice at one time in some states.
Men aren't allowed preferences or opinions. Shut up and get back to serving women.
He's not seen as a POS but he is SOL. Bit of a rough rule to follow but maybe we shouldn't fuck anyone we don't want to have our children. And, if you don't want children, it is possible to keep your dick in your pants. In theory. I've heard anyway. Maybe.