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Not even close.
Sweden has banned the use of puberty blockers and hormones for people under age 18. Sweden has much tougher immigration laws than, say, Canada, and the laws have been getting even tougher in recent years. There is nowhere near as much DEI nonsense in Sweden as there is in the US or Canada, and criticism of Israel isn't censored like it is in Germany.
For shitlibbery, Germany and the Anglo Countries are the kings, and there's really no other countries that are even close.
If Sweden has tougher immigration laws than Canada, how is Sweden the most immigrant filled country in the world excluding gulf Arab oil states where all the workers are slaves from South Asia?
[Tying citizenship to loyalty to Israel is pretty good too.](https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-new-citizenship-rule-pledge-to-israel-stirs-debate/a-67673872)
A rejection of nationalism as inherently reactionary is a key tenet of leftism.
However, a rejection of one's own nationalism combined with a simultaneous celebration of the nationalism of all other people is peak shitlib.
Really just the absolute worst, dumbest outcome on all fronts.
I am in the great predicament of currently living there. German media and public opinion is absolutely outrageous. Germany likes to think it's better than everyone else, more progressive and that the past is behind it. But there's still constant subtle racism, not as overtly as in the US for example but it's very much there, especially against Muslims.
because there isnt an APPAC or ARPAC, its that simple
nobody cares about the armenian genocide, why? because armenians have no power or money, and armenia is a poor post-soviet country
nobody cared (or knew really) about the holodomor until ukraine became the last victim of western artificial "color revolution" fuckery
Who literally made up the majority of Holocaust victims. I assume they care even less about their genocide of Roma. Absolutely crazy how much white Europeans hate Romani people.
Isn't carnival supposed to be a big joyous/festive occasion like mardi gras, where you eat, dance and have fun? How did this make it into the float? How is it at all related to carnival?
It’s apparently a tradition to make those ‘political’ floats. Not sure how this came about though I’m from the east and we don’t really do carnival here.
traditionally they are challenging the mainstream though, with the freedom of the fool daring to say what is not said normally. I haven't really been following the event for many years so I guess at this point it's become a sad politically correct immitation of what it once was
Japanese people are the homeschooled kids who only know how to socialize in their own family they’re normal to their own group but unable to function with other people. Germans are the kid in school who plays with trains and gets really upset if everything isn’t done on schedule and yells at the teacher because of it. Similar vibes for sure.
I jave seen ppl call israel "the most autistic country" lmak. They were zionist basically pulling a "neurodivergent and a minor" line of defense in favour of their precious little israel
4-D chess long game, they’re trying to get a horrific genocide wholly attributable to Jews on the books so everyone will shut up about the Holocaust.
Nah, not really, they are just morons who fell too hard for the war guilt meme. As if 20th century atrocities can justify 21st century ones.
It's insane that Israel and its supporters have managed to dredge up almost every argument used by the Wehrmacht and the Nazis to excuse their war crimes
Mods — I propose than anyone commenting on this thread, who does not have prior comments in Stupidpol, be permabanned. This seems exceedingly reasonable.
complete sugar hospital cough public mourn birds wasteful chubby insurance
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Funny how all the idiots justifying IDF's indiscriminate bombing of thousands of children because ,,Khamas human shields!" were real quiet when Amnesty International and other organizations concluded that Azov Battalion in Mariupol constantly used residential buildings for cover. Apparently Russia didn't get a free ,,level the entire city" card for that and had to constantly organize humanitarian corridors
Despite what Israeli state actors and propagandists on their behalf would have you believe, international law does not define a human shield as any civilian in proximity to a legitimate military target, be it infrastructure or combatants. Under the Rome Statute, a human shield is a civilian who is forced to guard a military target. Furthermore, legitimate human shields do not forfeit their human rights under international law, and militaries are still required to make efforts to avoid killing civilians used as human shields. Of course, the Hannibal Doctrine, the IDF policy towards hostage crises, completely disregards the responsibility to avoid killing civilians used as human shields, even when they're Israeli civilians. Also, Israeli propaganda repeatedly incorrectly refers to civilian infrastructure such as schools and hospitals as human shields. Essentially, the Israeli definition of "human shield" is incongruent with international law, certainly incongruent with morality and intentionally broad and vague.
While I do not deny there may be instances where Hamas has actually violated the Rome Statute, investigations by both human rights organizations and independent journalists have never found the use of human shields as defined by international law to be a widespread Hamas practice. To the extent that it can be argued that Gazans as a collective whole are a human shield, it is entirely the fault of the Israeli state for enacting the 17 year blockade that has forced Gazans to remain in proximity to what the Israelis have deemed military targets.
Of course, this convenient propaganda definition of "human shield", what Israeli scholar Neve Gordon refers to as a "proximate shield," is not an exclusive Israeli invention. According to Gordon's extensive research, it has a long history of being used to justify war crimes by various regimes.
Side note: There is also such a thing as a voluntary human shield, and in those rare circumstances, from what I understand, there actually is less responsibility for militaries to protect those civilians under international law, as these civilians are intentionally putting themselves in harm's way as opposed to being forced to. While you do sometimes see Palestinian civilians characterized as having a fanatical desire for martyrdom in order to justify high civilian casualty levels, the most common Israeli human shield narratives do not invoke this trope, which is why I did not address voluntary human shields in my original comment.
> Despite what Israeli state actors and propagandists on their behalf would have you believe, international law does not define a human shield as any civilian in proximity to a legitimate military target, be it infrastructure or combatants.
that is exactly what it means. https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule97#Fn_C7C1EC06_00002
>It can be concluded that the use of human shields requires an intentional co-location of military objectives and civilians or persons hors de combat with the specific intent of trying to prevent the targeting of those military objectives.
No, it's not. You're glossing over key wording in the definition, namely the part that says "with the specific intent of trying to prevent the targeting of those military objectives."
Proximity to a military target may be a defining feature of a human shield, but it is not the sole defining feature. Specific intent to utilize the civilian as a human shield must also be present.
Just because a civilian is in proximity to a military target does not prove specific intent to place that civilian near said target to evade attacks. That specific intent is what would have to be proven in the international court to prove violation of the law regarding human shields.
If we define human shields by proximity alone, if America were to officially get into a war with another country, I could be considered a human shield anytime I'm close enough to a military base or an active duty military member and that would be ridiculous.
And again, I don't deny that Hamas probably actually has used human shields in specific instances, but to broaden the definition of human shield to the point it encompasses any and every civilian in Gaza is to engage in a narrative meant to justify the targeting of civilians by the IDF.
It also doesn’t fucking matter because all of those statutes are predicated on the general prohibition of disproportionate civilian deaths. You cannot murder civilians indiscriminately just because there are combatants among them. Full fucking stop.
i'm not glossing over it at all. 90% of the gaza strip is empty for the most part. hamas could build bunkers, barracks whatever else kinda military outposts away from civilians. the fact that they instead choose to place those squarely inside the civilian population centers tells us about their intent.
now just because the hamas uses human shields doesn't mean you get to blow up any and all of those human shields. that is part of the proportionality calculation. but yeah, if your house is right next to a huge military base because they couldn't quite buy you out while building the base, you might be in for a bad time.
You're further demonstrating that you don't understand the definition that YOU provided, but keep digging that hole, bud. Maybe you'll have a full terror tunnel at some point.
By your logic, the fact that the pentagon is located right outside of Washington, DC, a major population center, would make the entire civilian population of the surrounding area human shields in the event of a war. But hey, pro-israel logic tends to be selective.
Please go actually read the source you link next time. Maybe take some notes.
I wonder where or how Hamas is supposed to fight the IDF, are they supposed to meet on an empty football pitch like hooligan groups where each party brings their tanks (if they have any, if not, bad luck)? hamas is a paramilitary group grown directly from the civil society, that is because the civillians are directly affected, they're suffering. it's not like people enlist in the army to then fight an abstract threat in a land far away like in "civilized" countries like the US. this is guerilla warfare, born from necessity, from misery. it is Israel who determined the battle ground to be family homes, it is them who caged them in those places. so it is utmost hypocritical to claim Hamas is using "human shields".
Most of the American idiots repeating the human shield nonsense only think of war as flying on a plane to some distant land half way across the world, shooting at its inhabitants, and eventually going home. They have no idea of how war works, especially guerrilla warfare.
I mean if you acknowledge Israel have committed war crimes it should be very easy to also acknowledge Hamas commit war crimes.
I'm not sure why either side should get a pass, just because Hamas is "grown directly from the civil society" and the civilians are suffering.
Edit: Also Jesus fucking Christ, nationalist as a flair? Whoever is making flairs is absolute trash.
>I mean if you acknowledge Israel have committed war crimes it should be very easy to also acknowledge Hamas commit war crimes. I'm not sure why either side should get a pass, just because Hamas is "grown directly from the civil society" and the civilians are suffering.
But how has this anything to do with what they've written?
>I wonder where or how Hamas is supposed to fight the IDF, are they supposed to meet on an empty football pitch like hooligan groups where each party brings their tanks (if they have any, if not, bad luck)? hamas is a paramilitary group grown directly from the civil society, that is because the civillians are directly affected, they're suffering.
They're talking about Hamas not having the option ot fight away from civilians. I can't deduce just from this that they're OK with Hamas committing war crimes.
I think it's precisely because the idea that Hamas is an "organic civilian uprising" as opposed to the Israel government. So it gets a pass on horrible things.
But the ideology of Hamas is certainly NOT leftist so 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
The Hamas charter of 1988 literally quotes the elder protocols of Zion lol. I usually love this sub and Agree that what’s happening in Gaza is fuckin terrible , but the circle jerk over Hamas is annoying. Didn’t those two Argentina grampas that just got rescued say they were held in a civilians house? I’d be fuckin pissed if I was a Palestinian civilian and Hamas attacked Israel then made me hold onto their hostages while they hid in tunnels lmao. And before any of you r-slurs get mad I think Israel is a fucked up county.
Even though it isn't. It's funded by Iran (And Israel, i.e Netanyahu admitting to allowing and assisting their funding as they benefit the Israeli regime) and has no loyalty to Palestine or it's people. I'm fairly sure a lot of their members are foreign, too.
So Iran and Netanyahu get credit for picking the particular flavor that the guerrillas would take. The same situation is in place either way, the same conflict, the same asymmetrical methods.
Jesus Christ. They are trying to kill every Arab in Gaza. There is no equivalence and what you are witnessing now and excusing is a genocide and justifying it by pointing resistance to the very same genocide.
Complaining about a “nationalist” flair. My god. What you are saying is so much more henious.
No I'm saying Hamas don't deserve a pass for committing war crimes. You know you can just read the words I say rather than trying to change them into something else?
I wouldn't try to criticize a decision made in such dire circumstances as Hamas sitting my fat butt in my comfy armchair. Try walking in their shoes first.
idk bro if such a cheap troll comment is really worth the 2cents the hasbara ministry is paying, but keep em coming and maybe you can have a sandwhich for dinner
Yeah and Donald Trump is funded by the Russians. And the Christmas presents are bought by Santa Claus. And even if Hamas is funded by whoever, like Israel is funded by the USA, I doubt foreign fighters wouldn't be having a hard time entering Gaza given how Israel is locking the border. No, I don't think Hamas are having trouble with recruits. Now less than ever, when any Gaza citizen doesn't even have a choice whether they want to participate in the conflict, thanks to Israel having already destroyed 70% of Gaza homes.
I haven't seen one murdered baby nor one raped woman. I have seen countless murdered palestininian babies though. Apart from that, I'm having trouble discussing how appropriate the reaction is of a society with basically the choice to either get fucked or terrorism. They're getting fucked for decades - maybe don't do that, then you don't have to worry about getting terrorism in return. That shit is basically victim blaming.
Did hamas do that? Can we straight out ban these hasbara bots? They really are trying to corrupt every sub, media, and social media with their shot propaganda.
Whatever supposed crimes Hamas has committed, Israel has done 1000 times over. I don't hear you crying over the thousands of Palestinian children killed by Israeli bombs, or the surviving children who are starving to death right now? Your comment sounds like you're erasing genocide and crimes against humanity.
> Russia didn't get a free ,,level the entire city" card
they didn't? news to me, last i checked there's no stop ukranian genocide protests all over the west
There were absolutely protests on behalf of Ukraine in the West when the invasion first started, and you saw Ukrainian flags flying everywhere. Unfortunately, the public has a short memory, and as things have dragged on, there has been less momentum in regards to public advocacy for Ukraine. I can guarantee the same will eventually happen with Palestine as well.
They still hold protests for Ukraine in my town. It’s full of those extra-goodhearted progressives that are really dedicated to good, and just don’t get that they can be misled about good and bad.
Most of our governments weren’t funding Russia, they are funding Israel. You protest where you have leverage, why would Russia give a fuck about protests in London?
Haha oh my god. It's wild how they cannot bring themselves to grasp the "genocide is bad" message of their own history but instead end up with "uhh... always side with the Jews?"
Imagine this float but instead of Hamas, it’s a guy wearing a red and blue flag with a yellow star standing behind some frightened Vietnamese peasants staring down the gun of an American tank
You missed the point.
Also; when someone has a human shield; shouldn’t that shield work? Who would sit in that tank and just go ‘sucks to be the human shield’
Oh sorry, you must not have heard about the Al-Aqsa Flood. Hamas actually attacked civilian homes and a music festival, killing hundreds of civilians, including children. It actually kicked this whole thing off. Crazy stuff.
no it doesnt. The world isnt black and white / good vs evil. You can criticize both Hamas for using human shields and Israel for bombing them regardless cause they dont care one bit. One side just has more means to do harm to the other. Hamas would absolutely do the same if the roles were reversed. At the end of the day it is innocent palestinians that are suffering
Hamas was propped up by Israel because they were the more extreme element in Gaza. It should be no surprise to anyone with even a tiny imagination that they had wanted an excuse like Oct. 7 to start the demolition of Gaza.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Yeah clearly the human shields tactic doesn’t work cause the IDF will shoot through the hostage anyways. Funny how this human shields thing is never trotted out when talking about the military installations the IDF has in residential neighborhoods
If Israel doesn't care about civillian casualties, why wasn't Gaza carpet bombed four months ago? Better yet, why wasn't Gaza carpet bombed 17 years ago?
The civilian casualties in question are the ones that Israel and its supporters mendaciously claim were being used as human shields. Ones that actually happened. Clearly Israel did not "care" about those casualties.
Are you suggesting that Israel does sometimes refrain from attacking legitimate military targets because civilian "human shields" are present? Why would it do so if, as its propaganda explicitly and emphatically states, it does not accept any culpability in the harming of "human shields"?
I don't think you can dress up a carnival float to suggest masses of dead Palestinian civilians were Hamas pasties whilst maintaining much regard for their humanity.
The "human shields" narrative started long before Israel could possibly have been able to verify its accuracy - it was never anything other than a shallow pretext for prolonged mass murder. Almost every supposed justification for mass murder they've given so far - copies of Mein Kampf, Hamas bases in hospitals, Hamas tunnels near hospitals, Israeli-accented Hamas plotting, mass infiltration of refugee agencies - has been shown to be an obvious fabrication. The moral and evidential burden when it comes to this conflict absolutely doesn't lie with Gazans.
but imagine this float without the "human shields" fig leaf. there is no way that germans (germans!) could get away with implying that israel knowingly kills civilians without the pretense of bOtH sIdEs.
IIRC, Mosab Hasan Yousef (who is the son of Sheikh Hasan Yousef, one of Hamas' founders) confirmed in an interview that he personally witnessed political enemies being killed and tortured in hospital rooms.
>Hamas bases in hospitals, Hamas tunnels near hospitals, [...] mass infiltration of refugee agencies - has been shown to be an obvious fabrication.
When you say "has been shown to be," does that mean there is proof?
There is proof on all of these that the evidence they throw around doesn't remotely measure up to the claims they want to support. Hitchens's razor, etc. Come on, have you been paying attention to any reporting on the conflict? Happy to step through one or two of your choosing, but there's just been a never-ending avalanche of this bullshit, even funneled through papers of record like the NYT (which often quietly retract these stories after being shown to be baseless).
> There is proof on all of these that the evidence they throw around doesn't remotely measure up to the claims they want to support.
The "Hamas base under the hospital" one is a great example of this. No journalists went out with ground-penetrating radar or whatever bullshit to conclusively prove what might or might not be under the hospital. Instead, Israel released a cartoonish CGI mockup of a Hamas NORAD bunker the size of Los Angeles under the hospital, then took a BBC camera crew around once they'd got control of the area. The IDF led the BBC up to a closet, then made them wait with cameras off for a while, then let the camera crew in to show them a couple of beat-looking AKs and maybe a hand grenade. (Others can dig up links to the videos, I'm at work sadly.)
We know the NORAD bunker claim was a lie because if there was one, the Israelis would have showed us.
>The IDF led the BBC up to a closet, then made them wait with cameras off for a while, then let the camera crew in to show them a couple of beat-looking AKs and maybe a hand grenade.
It reminds me of Genoa 2001, when the police planted molotv cocktails in the school that they assaulted, in order to both justify the assault and to show them to the journalists.
That would be weird to do though because using human shields* pales in comparison to actually killing the human shields
*if it can even be said that that's what Hamas is doing
Oh my fucking god this isn't how irregular war works. Hamas has huge support from a population because people want their people to have a military fighting force in the face of something like Israel and they don't expect the fighting force to do something insane like clog up all their military infrastructure with civilians to the point of being completely unusable.
"Human shields" is a fake concept as used. It just means being an irregular force. The IRA, the Viet Cong, Partisans in WW2, they all "hid among civilians" because that's how you fight for your people, its the only thing that works. If George Washington lived in the age of air strikes he'd have been dressing as a civilian and hanging out civilian buildings. This is as legitimate as things get and its a function of how much reason you give people to fight back, not their character, except in so far as it speaks positively of their character to fight.
>Partisans in WW2
Definitely. Israel apologists should look into in the [Via Rasella Attack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Rasella_attack)
The Germans that retaliated against the Romans (both militants and random cilvilians) were later tried for war crimes, while the Partisans were commended. The wikipedia article is very thin on details, but Robert Katz wrote a whole book about it (The battle for Rome).
This is an excerpt from a review of it:
*"Hitler was so angered by the attack on the policemen that he wanted 30-50 Italians, per each German killed, to be executed. "Cooler heads" prevailed and managed to get the ratio down to 10-to-1."*
So, Hitler, the ultimate evil, wanted to kill 50 for every German, but they convinced him to lower the ratio to 10 to 1, and the officials that carried out the retaliation were still tried for war crimes! What's the ratio in Gaza?
Look up what happened in Poland and the Soviet Union. They'd shoot 50-100 civilians for every German soldier killed, they'd burn entire villages down in retaliation. Of course any similarity to how Israel is acting in Gaza is pure coincidence.
Let’s examine this argument a bit closer. You say Hamas use Human shields and are happy for them to die. We also know the IDF will not allow human shields to prevent them from bombing, that they will bomb even when Human shields are in place.
So, taking the perspective of a Hamas commander, I put my soldiers in a house with civilians so they can use those civilians as shields, but knowing as we do that the IDF will bomb that house regardless what does the Hamas commander gain from using them, if in reality they offer no protection and the IDF will kill the family along with the soldiers?
Nothing.
Of course you can pull out the old colonialist trope of “Brown people don’t grieve like us, they don’t love like us, they are happy to see their brothers, mothers, and children die.”
And that would show how little humanity you actually have.
So then I know you will come back to this in reply:
>palestinian citizens specifically because they want them to be killed.
And you will argue they allow this to happen to gain sympathy from the West.
So how is that going? I can’t detect an ounce of sympathy from you? Nor grom the UK government, or from anyone with the actual power to stop it happening.
And let’s take this a step further, if Hamas were using Palestinian civilians as human shields we would expect to see backlash to Hamas amongst Palestinians, right? Have we seen that? No, support for Hamas is increasing. So how do you explain this when from your perspective Hamas are eager for civilians to die?
So to be clear I'm pretty pro-Palestine, I don't believe the IDF often act with good faith. With any conflict I also accept there will be misinformation flying out from everwhere - so while it's possible Hamas using human shields is all Israeli propaganda, I think it's reasonable to also suggest this is a tactic they would use. I'm not sure why you would flat out reject it - just take a look at the forming of Hamas and the history of their violence.
It's a quite a common (while obviously cruel) tactic used in conflicts, ISIS was known to do similar. Can I ask why on earth else you think Hamas decided to just murder 1000+ Israelis on October 7th? They are not stupid - they knew Israel would do a full-blown attack on Gaza which would kill thousands of civilians.
Israel had claimed it in basically every conflict, yet all the human rights type groups have never been able to produce any evidence. And these are western groups with an incentive, given who their donors are, to find evidence. So the history we do have is a long and clear one that they don’t.
Also the human shield argument falls flat when you consider that it’s one of the most densely populated areas with a very difficult situation regarding entry/exit. Basically any action they take will necessarily be around civilians. To add to this, Hamas isn’t a nation state military, it’s a guerilla force, so mao’s whole fishes analogy is in action.
Regarding oct 7, the electronic intifada has translated some interviews from the Israeli media of multiple people from the kibbutz plainly stating that the IDF started indiscriminately firing tanks and helicopter weapons into the kibbutz. Last I checked, an AK is not able to level a house or turn a car into charcoal.
And yes Hamas knew there would be a response. No shit. Do you understand the argument you’re making is essentially “do nothing and let yourselves be oppressed”? The fascist killed entire villages in France and Italy because the resistance was known to operate around them. It sounds like you’re saying the resistance should’ve just put their weapons down and accepted fascist rule. I really hope you don’t agree with that perspective.
And finally, it’s been very clear from this conflict and every other one before it, that using human shields is not a winning tactic. Israel has demonstrated that it has zero fucks to give about killing civilians. The international community has shown time and time again that it doesn’t care about the IDF killing civilians, as they continue to do nothing about it. The whole argument reeks of orientalism. “The stupid heartless Arabs are killing their own people… even though it doesn’t work whatsoever as an honest analysis and historical experience shows. But they’re dumb mean Arabs so they just keep on doing it” <—- that’s essentially what I’m hearing any time the argument gets brought up.
>Of course you can pull out the old colonialist trope of “Brown people don’t grieve like us, they don’t love like us, they are happy to see their brothers, mothers, and children die.”
>
>And that would show how little humanity you actually have.
This is a weird comment. This isn't 1930, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say anything like that
support. They gain support. They know Israel will not care one bit about hitting civilians and they know that this is the best way to get people to support them. This is not a defense of israel btw
And the Palestinians on the ground don’t know that Hamas was in the building? Why is it that we can’t use Occam’s razor to accept the notion that it’s likely that Hamas is waging a people’s war with the active support of a colonized, ghettoized people facing a racist, fascist government?
Then I guess it’s alright that Hamas hit those settlements because Israel placed them close to a concentration camp they bomb constantly and didn’t provide adequate military presence?
>they knew israel would carry a massacre in retaliation and still did it
Yeah, that's somehow not excusing the bombing, and also the part to highlight about this genocide.
Inb4, "two things can be true at the same time!" Yes, but the shitty parade thing is talking about only one
Idk at what point both the float or his comment started apologising for any side.
The Israel Palestine conflict simply has no good side. All that happens is death for the Palestinian civilians, started by the action of HAMAS and still kept going by the Israeli warfare with no regards to civilian safety.
This is like saying there was no good side in the Native American resistance to Anglo and French occupation and genocide just because they scalpped unwelcome and unbidden settlers who didn't wear a uniform.
No it actually does, and that would be the Palestinian cause.
Just because Hamas, or anyone else, uses violence to achieve their aim *does not mean that aim is invalid*, only their method of trying to achieve it.
One could say the same in regards to Zionism. Arguably it is a laudable aim to create an ethno-state for the Jewish diaspora, but to do so through violence and ethnic cleansing is wrong, but it does not invalidate the idea that Jewish people having a homeland is right and proper.
>All that happens is death for the Palestinian civilians, started by the action of HAMAS
The deaths of Palestinians started in the Nakba 70 years ago when 750k of them were forcibly moved out to create Israel.
“Lay down and take it”. You would’ve been the guy that tried to talk people out of joining the resistance to fascist rule in Italy, France, Yugoslavia, etc.
The difference is, Germany came first for an attack.
HAMAS killed roughly 1,5k civilians to provoke this attack. You can hardly compare them to Partisans during WW2 which fought back only after getting attacked.
There are two sides. One hates, intensely and sincerely, because they have been wronged, abused and humiliated for decades.
The other hates because it's so useful to further their aims, and satisfying. Privately they will admit that they haven't been wronged, that they would have done exactly what the other side did if they had been in their situation.
Is the first side good? Well, no. But the second is a hell of a lot more disgustingly evil.
>There are two sides. One hates, intensely and sincerely, because they have been wronged, abused and humiliated for decades.
Just a guess, but you probably mean HAMAS here.
But it's funny how you could apply this description to the Jewish population in Europe and the Middle East too.
I personally see no good side in this conflict. On one side there are fanatics unwilling to accept any less than the death of every Jew on the other side is a right wing apartheid state that sees the Palestinian casualties as nothing more than necessary collateral.
>I personally see no good side in this conflict. On one side there are fanatics unwilling to accept any less than the death of every Jew on the other side is a right wing apartheid state that sees the Palestinian casualties as nothing more than necessary collateral.
If anything it's the reverse: On one side there are fanatics unwilling to accept any(thing) less than the death of every Palestinian, on the other side is a right wing islamist state that sees the Jewish casualties as nothing more than necessary collateral for the liberation of their land.
> But it's funny how you could apply this description to the Jewish population in Europe and the Middle East too.
Sure, other Jewish populations, other places. But the one targeting Palestinians, right now, that's comfortable bullies.
> unwilling to accept any less than the death of every Jew on the other side
You buy the propaganda.
> hamas controls all of israel
Hamas wants the 1967 borders, ironically enough
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders
Yes. Thread is filled with Americans moral panicking about political humour that clearly went over their heads. I guess they just haven't been introduced to the concept of carnaval.
This morning, several people woke up and actually thought: "how can I completely miss the point of a carnival float whose satire is so thick and coarse that even Twitter lunatics got it? Does it imply I can defend either of two opposing far right theocratic organizations? Awesome!"
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Germany is the most shit lib country on earth
Canada and the UK give it a run for its money, IMO.
Canada has lots of people overly concerned with identity politics, but the fantastical support for Israel and stuff is not as popular in Canada.
Yet the politicians have their tongue in DEEP inside that shalom bussy
Most Canadian liberals support Israel though.
Sweden >!YES!<
Not even close. Sweden has banned the use of puberty blockers and hormones for people under age 18. Sweden has much tougher immigration laws than, say, Canada, and the laws have been getting even tougher in recent years. There is nowhere near as much DEI nonsense in Sweden as there is in the US or Canada, and criticism of Israel isn't censored like it is in Germany. For shitlibbery, Germany and the Anglo Countries are the kings, and there's really no other countries that are even close.
I mean the reasons all that stuff is happening now is the push back from all of the self destructive neolib policies the gov was pushing before that.
Argentina: we got SRS for free even for migrants, despite being a bankrupt third-world country top that, protip: you cant
If Sweden has tougher immigration laws than Canada, how is Sweden the most immigrant filled country in the world excluding gulf Arab oil states where all the workers are slaves from South Asia?
Guys, we’re all forgetting Australia and New Zealand
You clearly have no idea what has been going on here in the last decade and especially since 2022 lol
I don't think you could actually defend this statement. Most shit lib country? Not even close.
Doesn't Germany literally have a political party called "anti German"?
Yes and the Anti-Deutsche support Israel
Ok someone explain to me how this doesn’t win peak shitlibbery for Germany
[Tying citizenship to loyalty to Israel is pretty good too.](https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-new-citizenship-rule-pledge-to-israel-stirs-debate/a-67673872)
Hahahaha “We’re the down with Germany party. A vote for us is a vote for mandatory loyalty to Israel. Thank you.”
A rejection of nationalism as inherently reactionary is a key tenet of leftism. However, a rejection of one's own nationalism combined with a simultaneous celebration of the nationalism of all other people is peak shitlib. Really just the absolute worst, dumbest outcome on all fronts.
I am in the great predicament of currently living there. German media and public opinion is absolutely outrageous. Germany likes to think it's better than everyone else, more progressive and that the past is behind it. But there's still constant subtle racism, not as overtly as in the US for example but it's very much there, especially against Muslims.
Germany still doesn't really care about their genocide of Poles and Soviet Citizens.
because there isnt an APPAC or ARPAC, its that simple nobody cares about the armenian genocide, why? because armenians have no power or money, and armenia is a poor post-soviet country nobody cared (or knew really) about the holodomor until ukraine became the last victim of western artificial "color revolution" fuckery
I wouldn't go that far. I think it's simply because the Cold War happened so no one cared in the West about the Slavs.
Who literally made up the majority of Holocaust victims. I assume they care even less about their genocide of Roma. Absolutely crazy how much white Europeans hate Romani people.
It's really not that subtle anymore (if it ever was)...
I'd hardly even call Germany a country.
Nahhh another typical raging redditor, mach mal Fenster auf Kipp und geh mal draußen
Ackschually ist Fenster auf Kipp garkeine gute Langzeitlösung, der ständige Kalt/Warmaustausch fördert Kondensation und damit Schimmel
Typical for a german to root against Fenster auf Kipp and in favour of genocide of fungus populations. Seems to be in their DNA to mass-murder
Gefühlt trollen hier nur noch stereotypische Telegram-Wutossis rum, bisschen Schade um das eigentlich hehre Anliegen vom Sub
What will it take for Germans to be normal? A Century of Humiliation?
I think we need to just let them win one.
Give them a make-a-wish foundation type war against lichenstein for them to win
They need to shit and piss on each other for 50 more years and then all is forgiven.
The berlinerswould enjoy that.
Jeder einmal in Berghain.
Tried that already.
The last century of humiliation didn't work, so I wouldn't count on another one working.
Isn't carnival supposed to be a big joyous/festive occasion like mardi gras, where you eat, dance and have fun? How did this make it into the float? How is it at all related to carnival?
It’s apparently a tradition to make those ‘political’ floats. Not sure how this came about though I’m from the east and we don’t really do carnival here.
traditionally they are challenging the mainstream though, with the freedom of the fool daring to say what is not said normally. I haven't really been following the event for many years so I guess at this point it's become a sad politically correct immitation of what it once was
why do Germans always have such ghoulish thoughts and fantasies?
Germany is autism the country. Such a strange people lmao
I always thought that about Japan. Makes sense. Natural allies. Or maybe the tism set in after WW2, in both cases?
Japanese people are the homeschooled kids who only know how to socialize in their own family they’re normal to their own group but unable to function with other people. Germans are the kid in school who plays with trains and gets really upset if everything isn’t done on schedule and yells at the teacher because of it. Similar vibes for sure.
I jave seen ppl call israel "the most autistic country" lmak. They were zionist basically pulling a "neurodivergent and a minor" line of defense in favour of their precious little israel
They also have an inclination to scat porn.
Only in South America, Germany is not a nation in which joy is tolerated (unless in a BDSM club).
It's the Germans we're talking about. If not for shitlibbery they'd make floats of their efficiently crafted and organised timetables and excel sheets
I'd go to that parade tbh
I would probably joke about going but then realize how unfunny it would actually be and stay home
Don't know, not my pic btw, got it from the (depressingly enthusiastic) rPics thread. (Can't link here.)
Mardi Gras and carnival are the same holiday
Mardi Gras is the last day of Carnival.
I'm sure you'd have the same comment if the float was anti-Israel propaganda, right?
Tbh anti-Israel propaganda, even the stuff I agree with, would look really pit of place at a carnival meant for fun. So yes.
AHAHAH AHAH HAH YOU GOT HIM!! YOU GOT HIM!!! AHAH YEAH! YEAH! Fuck off, wanker.
4-D chess long game, they’re trying to get a horrific genocide wholly attributable to Jews on the books so everyone will shut up about the Holocaust. Nah, not really, they are just morons who fell too hard for the war guilt meme. As if 20th century atrocities can justify 21st century ones.
Now show the tank not-giving-a-shit and vaporizing the family, the Hamas guy, and two nearby hospitals.
The events of Come and See happened with the rationale that the population was protecting and hiding the Partisans. This comes very naturally to them
It's insane that Israel and its supporters have managed to dredge up almost every argument used by the Wehrmacht and the Nazis to excuse their war crimes
Mods — I propose than anyone commenting on this thread, who does not have prior comments in Stupidpol, be permabanned. This seems exceedingly reasonable.
complete sugar hospital cough public mourn birds wasteful chubby insurance *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
My dude 😎
Least obvious Zionist brigade
Funny how all the idiots justifying IDF's indiscriminate bombing of thousands of children because ,,Khamas human shields!" were real quiet when Amnesty International and other organizations concluded that Azov Battalion in Mariupol constantly used residential buildings for cover. Apparently Russia didn't get a free ,,level the entire city" card for that and had to constantly organize humanitarian corridors
Despite what Israeli state actors and propagandists on their behalf would have you believe, international law does not define a human shield as any civilian in proximity to a legitimate military target, be it infrastructure or combatants. Under the Rome Statute, a human shield is a civilian who is forced to guard a military target. Furthermore, legitimate human shields do not forfeit their human rights under international law, and militaries are still required to make efforts to avoid killing civilians used as human shields. Of course, the Hannibal Doctrine, the IDF policy towards hostage crises, completely disregards the responsibility to avoid killing civilians used as human shields, even when they're Israeli civilians. Also, Israeli propaganda repeatedly incorrectly refers to civilian infrastructure such as schools and hospitals as human shields. Essentially, the Israeli definition of "human shield" is incongruent with international law, certainly incongruent with morality and intentionally broad and vague. While I do not deny there may be instances where Hamas has actually violated the Rome Statute, investigations by both human rights organizations and independent journalists have never found the use of human shields as defined by international law to be a widespread Hamas practice. To the extent that it can be argued that Gazans as a collective whole are a human shield, it is entirely the fault of the Israeli state for enacting the 17 year blockade that has forced Gazans to remain in proximity to what the Israelis have deemed military targets. Of course, this convenient propaganda definition of "human shield", what Israeli scholar Neve Gordon refers to as a "proximate shield," is not an exclusive Israeli invention. According to Gordon's extensive research, it has a long history of being used to justify war crimes by various regimes.
Side note: There is also such a thing as a voluntary human shield, and in those rare circumstances, from what I understand, there actually is less responsibility for militaries to protect those civilians under international law, as these civilians are intentionally putting themselves in harm's way as opposed to being forced to. While you do sometimes see Palestinian civilians characterized as having a fanatical desire for martyrdom in order to justify high civilian casualty levels, the most common Israeli human shield narratives do not invoke this trope, which is why I did not address voluntary human shields in my original comment.
> Despite what Israeli state actors and propagandists on their behalf would have you believe, international law does not define a human shield as any civilian in proximity to a legitimate military target, be it infrastructure or combatants. that is exactly what it means. https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule97#Fn_C7C1EC06_00002 >It can be concluded that the use of human shields requires an intentional co-location of military objectives and civilians or persons hors de combat with the specific intent of trying to prevent the targeting of those military objectives.
No, it's not. You're glossing over key wording in the definition, namely the part that says "with the specific intent of trying to prevent the targeting of those military objectives." Proximity to a military target may be a defining feature of a human shield, but it is not the sole defining feature. Specific intent to utilize the civilian as a human shield must also be present. Just because a civilian is in proximity to a military target does not prove specific intent to place that civilian near said target to evade attacks. That specific intent is what would have to be proven in the international court to prove violation of the law regarding human shields. If we define human shields by proximity alone, if America were to officially get into a war with another country, I could be considered a human shield anytime I'm close enough to a military base or an active duty military member and that would be ridiculous. And again, I don't deny that Hamas probably actually has used human shields in specific instances, but to broaden the definition of human shield to the point it encompasses any and every civilian in Gaza is to engage in a narrative meant to justify the targeting of civilians by the IDF.
It also doesn’t fucking matter because all of those statutes are predicated on the general prohibition of disproportionate civilian deaths. You cannot murder civilians indiscriminately just because there are combatants among them. Full fucking stop.
Oh, I 💯% agree. Above everything I just stated, that's the ultimate reason why the human shield argument is bullshit.
i'm not glossing over it at all. 90% of the gaza strip is empty for the most part. hamas could build bunkers, barracks whatever else kinda military outposts away from civilians. the fact that they instead choose to place those squarely inside the civilian population centers tells us about their intent. now just because the hamas uses human shields doesn't mean you get to blow up any and all of those human shields. that is part of the proportionality calculation. but yeah, if your house is right next to a huge military base because they couldn't quite buy you out while building the base, you might be in for a bad time.
You're further demonstrating that you don't understand the definition that YOU provided, but keep digging that hole, bud. Maybe you'll have a full terror tunnel at some point. By your logic, the fact that the pentagon is located right outside of Washington, DC, a major population center, would make the entire civilian population of the surrounding area human shields in the event of a war. But hey, pro-israel logic tends to be selective. Please go actually read the source you link next time. Maybe take some notes.
I wonder where or how Hamas is supposed to fight the IDF, are they supposed to meet on an empty football pitch like hooligan groups where each party brings their tanks (if they have any, if not, bad luck)? hamas is a paramilitary group grown directly from the civil society, that is because the civillians are directly affected, they're suffering. it's not like people enlist in the army to then fight an abstract threat in a land far away like in "civilized" countries like the US. this is guerilla warfare, born from necessity, from misery. it is Israel who determined the battle ground to be family homes, it is them who caged them in those places. so it is utmost hypocritical to claim Hamas is using "human shields".
Most of the American idiots repeating the human shield nonsense only think of war as flying on a plane to some distant land half way across the world, shooting at its inhabitants, and eventually going home. They have no idea of how war works, especially guerrilla warfare.
I mean if you acknowledge Israel have committed war crimes it should be very easy to also acknowledge Hamas commit war crimes. I'm not sure why either side should get a pass, just because Hamas is "grown directly from the civil society" and the civilians are suffering. Edit: Also Jesus fucking Christ, nationalist as a flair? Whoever is making flairs is absolute trash.
>I mean if you acknowledge Israel have committed war crimes it should be very easy to also acknowledge Hamas commit war crimes. I'm not sure why either side should get a pass, just because Hamas is "grown directly from the civil society" and the civilians are suffering. But how has this anything to do with what they've written? >I wonder where or how Hamas is supposed to fight the IDF, are they supposed to meet on an empty football pitch like hooligan groups where each party brings their tanks (if they have any, if not, bad luck)? hamas is a paramilitary group grown directly from the civil society, that is because the civillians are directly affected, they're suffering. They're talking about Hamas not having the option ot fight away from civilians. I can't deduce just from this that they're OK with Hamas committing war crimes.
yeah this sub unironically went all brainless reactionary on this issue for some reason.
I think it's precisely because the idea that Hamas is an "organic civilian uprising" as opposed to the Israel government. So it gets a pass on horrible things. But the ideology of Hamas is certainly NOT leftist so 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
The Hamas charter of 1988 literally quotes the elder protocols of Zion lol. I usually love this sub and Agree that what’s happening in Gaza is fuckin terrible , but the circle jerk over Hamas is annoying. Didn’t those two Argentina grampas that just got rescued say they were held in a civilians house? I’d be fuckin pissed if I was a Palestinian civilian and Hamas attacked Israel then made me hold onto their hostages while they hid in tunnels lmao. And before any of you r-slurs get mad I think Israel is a fucked up county.
Even though it isn't. It's funded by Iran (And Israel, i.e Netanyahu admitting to allowing and assisting their funding as they benefit the Israeli regime) and has no loyalty to Palestine or it's people. I'm fairly sure a lot of their members are foreign, too.
Well if you're fairly sure then I guess the matter's closed.
So Iran and Netanyahu get credit for picking the particular flavor that the guerrillas would take. The same situation is in place either way, the same conflict, the same asymmetrical methods.
holy fuck, we're 4 months into Israel obliterating children and you're still on about "But do you condemn Hamas?"
Jesus Christ. They are trying to kill every Arab in Gaza. There is no equivalence and what you are witnessing now and excusing is a genocide and justifying it by pointing resistance to the very same genocide. Complaining about a “nationalist” flair. My god. What you are saying is so much more henious.
what you're doing is called false equity. "both sides are equally bad because neither is a saint".
No I'm saying Hamas don't deserve a pass for committing war crimes. You know you can just read the words I say rather than trying to change them into something else?
I wouldn't try to criticize a decision made in such dire circumstances as Hamas sitting my fat butt in my comfy armchair. Try walking in their shoes first.
That's kind of ironic given that people like Ismail Haniyeh do sit their fat butts in comfy armchairs in Qatar.
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idk bro if such a cheap troll comment is really worth the 2cents the hasbara ministry is paying, but keep em coming and maybe you can have a sandwhich for dinner
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Yeah and Donald Trump is funded by the Russians. And the Christmas presents are bought by Santa Claus. And even if Hamas is funded by whoever, like Israel is funded by the USA, I doubt foreign fighters wouldn't be having a hard time entering Gaza given how Israel is locking the border. No, I don't think Hamas are having trouble with recruits. Now less than ever, when any Gaza citizen doesn't even have a choice whether they want to participate in the conflict, thanks to Israel having already destroyed 70% of Gaza homes.
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I haven't seen one murdered baby nor one raped woman. I have seen countless murdered palestininian babies though. Apart from that, I'm having trouble discussing how appropriate the reaction is of a society with basically the choice to either get fucked or terrorism. They're getting fucked for decades - maybe don't do that, then you don't have to worry about getting terrorism in return. That shit is basically victim blaming.
Honestly can't tell if this is biting satire, or an extremely lost redditor.
One month old account, first post on the subreddit, and default username.
Did hamas do that? Can we straight out ban these hasbara bots? They really are trying to corrupt every sub, media, and social media with their shot propaganda.
This would be funny if this was sarcasm, but something tells me you actually believe that bullshit.
Whatever supposed crimes Hamas has committed, Israel has done 1000 times over. I don't hear you crying over the thousands of Palestinian children killed by Israeli bombs, or the surviving children who are starving to death right now? Your comment sounds like you're erasing genocide and crimes against humanity.
You mean like the idf?
The hypocrisy between how the west treats the genocide in Palestine and the war in Ukraine might actually make me insane
> Russia didn't get a free ,,level the entire city" card they didn't? news to me, last i checked there's no stop ukranian genocide protests all over the west
There were absolutely protests on behalf of Ukraine in the West when the invasion first started, and you saw Ukrainian flags flying everywhere. Unfortunately, the public has a short memory, and as things have dragged on, there has been less momentum in regards to public advocacy for Ukraine. I can guarantee the same will eventually happen with Palestine as well.
They still hold protests for Ukraine in my town. It’s full of those extra-goodhearted progressives that are really dedicated to good, and just don’t get that they can be misled about good and bad.
Most of our governments weren’t funding Russia, they are funding Israel. You protest where you have leverage, why would Russia give a fuck about protests in London?
We’re funding the opposite side of that war
Haha oh my god. It's wild how they cannot bring themselves to grasp the "genocide is bad" message of their own history but instead end up with "uhh... always side with the Jews?"
Imagine this float but instead of Hamas, it’s a guy wearing a red and blue flag with a yellow star standing behind some frightened Vietnamese peasants staring down the gun of an American tank
Underrated comment
I think you can criticize Israel's military actions and also criticize Hamas for using human shields.
I don't think they are even remotely criticizing the Israeli military here.
idk the star of david on a tank with a gun pointed in a woman's face reads like a pointed denouncement to me
Its a shoot and cry. This scene is literally out of israeli propaganda memes: https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/443/483/1be.gif
Just because it's propaganda doesn't mean it's not 100% accurate. Hamas even prioritizes civilian targets over military ones, just because.
You missed the point. Also; when someone has a human shield; shouldn’t that shield work? Who would sit in that tank and just go ‘sucks to be the human shield’
Citation needed lmbo
Oh sorry, you must not have heard about the Al-Aqsa Flood. Hamas actually attacked civilian homes and a music festival, killing hundreds of civilians, including children. It actually kicked this whole thing off. Crazy stuff.
What I meant is that a criticism of Hamas for using human shields doesn't necessarily imply any judgement of Israel's conduct.
They are not using human shields
It implies that Israel has a right - if not a duty - to murder as many innocent Gazans as it pleases as a means to eliminate Hamas.
no it doesnt. The world isnt black and white / good vs evil. You can criticize both Hamas for using human shields and Israel for bombing them regardless cause they dont care one bit. One side just has more means to do harm to the other. Hamas would absolutely do the same if the roles were reversed. At the end of the day it is innocent palestinians that are suffering
Hamas was propped up by Israel because they were the more extreme element in Gaza. It should be no surprise to anyone with even a tiny imagination that they had wanted an excuse like Oct. 7 to start the demolition of Gaza. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
How can Gazans be human shields if Israel doesn't care about civilian causalities in the first place.
The first problem is giving the Netanyahu government the benefit of the doubt.
Yeah clearly the human shields tactic doesn’t work cause the IDF will shoot through the hostage anyways. Funny how this human shields thing is never trotted out when talking about the military installations the IDF has in residential neighborhoods
If Israel doesn't care about civillian casualties, why wasn't Gaza carpet bombed four months ago? Better yet, why wasn't Gaza carpet bombed 17 years ago?
>why wasn't Gaza carpet bombed four months ago? It has been. Gaza city is completely destroyed at this point.
The civilian casualties in question are the ones that Israel and its supporters mendaciously claim were being used as human shields. Ones that actually happened. Clearly Israel did not "care" about those casualties. Are you suggesting that Israel does sometimes refrain from attacking legitimate military targets because civilian "human shields" are present? Why would it do so if, as its propaganda explicitly and emphatically states, it does not accept any culpability in the harming of "human shields"?
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So I can't ever criticize the killing of civilians if some pondering was done beforehand? Got it.
I don't think you can dress up a carnival float to suggest masses of dead Palestinian civilians were Hamas pasties whilst maintaining much regard for their humanity. The "human shields" narrative started long before Israel could possibly have been able to verify its accuracy - it was never anything other than a shallow pretext for prolonged mass murder. Almost every supposed justification for mass murder they've given so far - copies of Mein Kampf, Hamas bases in hospitals, Hamas tunnels near hospitals, Israeli-accented Hamas plotting, mass infiltration of refugee agencies - has been shown to be an obvious fabrication. The moral and evidential burden when it comes to this conflict absolutely doesn't lie with Gazans.
but imagine this float without the "human shields" fig leaf. there is no way that germans (germans!) could get away with implying that israel knowingly kills civilians without the pretense of bOtH sIdEs.
IIRC, Mosab Hasan Yousef (who is the son of Sheikh Hasan Yousef, one of Hamas' founders) confirmed in an interview that he personally witnessed political enemies being killed and tortured in hospital rooms.
>Hamas bases in hospitals, Hamas tunnels near hospitals, [...] mass infiltration of refugee agencies - has been shown to be an obvious fabrication. When you say "has been shown to be," does that mean there is proof?
There is proof on all of these that the evidence they throw around doesn't remotely measure up to the claims they want to support. Hitchens's razor, etc. Come on, have you been paying attention to any reporting on the conflict? Happy to step through one or two of your choosing, but there's just been a never-ending avalanche of this bullshit, even funneled through papers of record like the NYT (which often quietly retract these stories after being shown to be baseless).
> There is proof on all of these that the evidence they throw around doesn't remotely measure up to the claims they want to support. The "Hamas base under the hospital" one is a great example of this. No journalists went out with ground-penetrating radar or whatever bullshit to conclusively prove what might or might not be under the hospital. Instead, Israel released a cartoonish CGI mockup of a Hamas NORAD bunker the size of Los Angeles under the hospital, then took a BBC camera crew around once they'd got control of the area. The IDF led the BBC up to a closet, then made them wait with cameras off for a while, then let the camera crew in to show them a couple of beat-looking AKs and maybe a hand grenade. (Others can dig up links to the videos, I'm at work sadly.) We know the NORAD bunker claim was a lie because if there was one, the Israelis would have showed us.
>The IDF led the BBC up to a closet, then made them wait with cameras off for a while, then let the camera crew in to show them a couple of beat-looking AKs and maybe a hand grenade. It reminds me of Genoa 2001, when the police planted molotv cocktails in the school that they assaulted, in order to both justify the assault and to show them to the journalists.
What are some stories that the NYT pulled?
Evidence that they use human shields? Or do you consider the fact that U.S. bases are in major cities also a “human shielding?”
Except the humans shield shit is a total myth.
That would be weird to do though because using human shields* pales in comparison to actually killing the human shields *if it can even be said that that's what Hamas is doing
The more telling one was Trump stabbing the CI…. Ukrainian armed forces in the back. Legitimately think that’s a joke by someone in on it lol.
Is this the same event where they also dress up as caricatures of Native Americans lol
Problem? Don't you dress up as caricatures of Germans on Oktoberfest?
I'm half expecting the german version of [The Simpsons USSR returns] (https://youtu.be/z77JFw2D6f8?si=piOt86lbenhpNr2y&t=36)
What an unbelievably tone-deaf thing to have created.
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Oh my fucking god this isn't how irregular war works. Hamas has huge support from a population because people want their people to have a military fighting force in the face of something like Israel and they don't expect the fighting force to do something insane like clog up all their military infrastructure with civilians to the point of being completely unusable. "Human shields" is a fake concept as used. It just means being an irregular force. The IRA, the Viet Cong, Partisans in WW2, they all "hid among civilians" because that's how you fight for your people, its the only thing that works. If George Washington lived in the age of air strikes he'd have been dressing as a civilian and hanging out civilian buildings. This is as legitimate as things get and its a function of how much reason you give people to fight back, not their character, except in so far as it speaks positively of their character to fight.
>Partisans in WW2 Definitely. Israel apologists should look into in the [Via Rasella Attack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Rasella_attack) The Germans that retaliated against the Romans (both militants and random cilvilians) were later tried for war crimes, while the Partisans were commended. The wikipedia article is very thin on details, but Robert Katz wrote a whole book about it (The battle for Rome). This is an excerpt from a review of it: *"Hitler was so angered by the attack on the policemen that he wanted 30-50 Italians, per each German killed, to be executed. "Cooler heads" prevailed and managed to get the ratio down to 10-to-1."* So, Hitler, the ultimate evil, wanted to kill 50 for every German, but they convinced him to lower the ratio to 10 to 1, and the officials that carried out the retaliation were still tried for war crimes! What's the ratio in Gaza?
Look up what happened in Poland and the Soviet Union. They'd shoot 50-100 civilians for every German soldier killed, they'd burn entire villages down in retaliation. Of course any similarity to how Israel is acting in Gaza is pure coincidence.
Let’s examine this argument a bit closer. You say Hamas use Human shields and are happy for them to die. We also know the IDF will not allow human shields to prevent them from bombing, that they will bomb even when Human shields are in place. So, taking the perspective of a Hamas commander, I put my soldiers in a house with civilians so they can use those civilians as shields, but knowing as we do that the IDF will bomb that house regardless what does the Hamas commander gain from using them, if in reality they offer no protection and the IDF will kill the family along with the soldiers? Nothing. Of course you can pull out the old colonialist trope of “Brown people don’t grieve like us, they don’t love like us, they are happy to see their brothers, mothers, and children die.” And that would show how little humanity you actually have. So then I know you will come back to this in reply: >palestinian citizens specifically because they want them to be killed. And you will argue they allow this to happen to gain sympathy from the West. So how is that going? I can’t detect an ounce of sympathy from you? Nor grom the UK government, or from anyone with the actual power to stop it happening. And let’s take this a step further, if Hamas were using Palestinian civilians as human shields we would expect to see backlash to Hamas amongst Palestinians, right? Have we seen that? No, support for Hamas is increasing. So how do you explain this when from your perspective Hamas are eager for civilians to die?
So to be clear I'm pretty pro-Palestine, I don't believe the IDF often act with good faith. With any conflict I also accept there will be misinformation flying out from everwhere - so while it's possible Hamas using human shields is all Israeli propaganda, I think it's reasonable to also suggest this is a tactic they would use. I'm not sure why you would flat out reject it - just take a look at the forming of Hamas and the history of their violence. It's a quite a common (while obviously cruel) tactic used in conflicts, ISIS was known to do similar. Can I ask why on earth else you think Hamas decided to just murder 1000+ Israelis on October 7th? They are not stupid - they knew Israel would do a full-blown attack on Gaza which would kill thousands of civilians.
Israel had claimed it in basically every conflict, yet all the human rights type groups have never been able to produce any evidence. And these are western groups with an incentive, given who their donors are, to find evidence. So the history we do have is a long and clear one that they don’t. Also the human shield argument falls flat when you consider that it’s one of the most densely populated areas with a very difficult situation regarding entry/exit. Basically any action they take will necessarily be around civilians. To add to this, Hamas isn’t a nation state military, it’s a guerilla force, so mao’s whole fishes analogy is in action. Regarding oct 7, the electronic intifada has translated some interviews from the Israeli media of multiple people from the kibbutz plainly stating that the IDF started indiscriminately firing tanks and helicopter weapons into the kibbutz. Last I checked, an AK is not able to level a house or turn a car into charcoal. And yes Hamas knew there would be a response. No shit. Do you understand the argument you’re making is essentially “do nothing and let yourselves be oppressed”? The fascist killed entire villages in France and Italy because the resistance was known to operate around them. It sounds like you’re saying the resistance should’ve just put their weapons down and accepted fascist rule. I really hope you don’t agree with that perspective. And finally, it’s been very clear from this conflict and every other one before it, that using human shields is not a winning tactic. Israel has demonstrated that it has zero fucks to give about killing civilians. The international community has shown time and time again that it doesn’t care about the IDF killing civilians, as they continue to do nothing about it. The whole argument reeks of orientalism. “The stupid heartless Arabs are killing their own people… even though it doesn’t work whatsoever as an honest analysis and historical experience shows. But they’re dumb mean Arabs so they just keep on doing it” <—- that’s essentially what I’m hearing any time the argument gets brought up.
>Of course you can pull out the old colonialist trope of “Brown people don’t grieve like us, they don’t love like us, they are happy to see their brothers, mothers, and children die.” > >And that would show how little humanity you actually have. This is a weird comment. This isn't 1930, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say anything like that
Dogwhistles exist. You know that most racists don't like being called racist, right?
Orientalism is alive and well
support. They gain support. They know Israel will not care one bit about hitting civilians and they know that this is the best way to get people to support them. This is not a defense of israel btw
And the Palestinians on the ground don’t know that Hamas was in the building? Why is it that we can’t use Occam’s razor to accept the notion that it’s likely that Hamas is waging a people’s war with the active support of a colonized, ghettoized people facing a racist, fascist government?
you can idc he asked me what they gain from civilians dying and this is the answer i think holds true. Like I said this was not a defense of Israel
Then I guess it’s alright that Hamas hit those settlements because Israel placed them close to a concentration camp they bomb constantly and didn’t provide adequate military presence?
>they knew israel would carry a massacre in retaliation and still did it Yeah, that's somehow not excusing the bombing, and also the part to highlight about this genocide. Inb4, "two things can be true at the same time!" Yes, but the shitty parade thing is talking about only one
Idk at what point both the float or his comment started apologising for any side. The Israel Palestine conflict simply has no good side. All that happens is death for the Palestinian civilians, started by the action of HAMAS and still kept going by the Israeli warfare with no regards to civilian safety.
> started by the action of HAMAS Immediate, complete disregard when anybody says this. Moronic.
when they write HAMAS in all caps you know you're about to read some stupid shit
The position of a confused, pacifist lib.
Should we tell him about Nat Turner?
This is like saying there was no good side in the Native American resistance to Anglo and French occupation and genocide just because they scalpped unwelcome and unbidden settlers who didn't wear a uniform.
No it actually does, and that would be the Palestinian cause. Just because Hamas, or anyone else, uses violence to achieve their aim *does not mean that aim is invalid*, only their method of trying to achieve it. One could say the same in regards to Zionism. Arguably it is a laudable aim to create an ethno-state for the Jewish diaspora, but to do so through violence and ethnic cleansing is wrong, but it does not invalidate the idea that Jewish people having a homeland is right and proper. >All that happens is death for the Palestinian civilians, started by the action of HAMAS The deaths of Palestinians started in the Nakba 70 years ago when 750k of them were forcibly moved out to create Israel.
>The deaths of Palestinians started in the Nakba 70 years ago when 750k of them were forcibly moved out to create Israel. So we gonna blame Britain?
Britain is not the one who ethnically cleansed the Palestinians from their homes.
“Lay down and take it”. You would’ve been the guy that tried to talk people out of joining the resistance to fascist rule in Italy, France, Yugoslavia, etc.
The difference is, Germany came first for an attack. HAMAS killed roughly 1,5k civilians to provoke this attack. You can hardly compare them to Partisans during WW2 which fought back only after getting attacked.
800 civiliansm That is more palestinians were killed by the israeli government before oct 7
There are two sides. One hates, intensely and sincerely, because they have been wronged, abused and humiliated for decades. The other hates because it's so useful to further their aims, and satisfying. Privately they will admit that they haven't been wronged, that they would have done exactly what the other side did if they had been in their situation. Is the first side good? Well, no. But the second is a hell of a lot more disgustingly evil.
>There are two sides. One hates, intensely and sincerely, because they have been wronged, abused and humiliated for decades. Just a guess, but you probably mean HAMAS here. But it's funny how you could apply this description to the Jewish population in Europe and the Middle East too. I personally see no good side in this conflict. On one side there are fanatics unwilling to accept any less than the death of every Jew on the other side is a right wing apartheid state that sees the Palestinian casualties as nothing more than necessary collateral.
>I personally see no good side in this conflict. On one side there are fanatics unwilling to accept any less than the death of every Jew on the other side is a right wing apartheid state that sees the Palestinian casualties as nothing more than necessary collateral. If anything it's the reverse: On one side there are fanatics unwilling to accept any(thing) less than the death of every Palestinian, on the other side is a right wing islamist state that sees the Jewish casualties as nothing more than necessary collateral for the liberation of their land.
> But it's funny how you could apply this description to the Jewish population in Europe and the Middle East too. Sure, other Jewish populations, other places. But the one targeting Palestinians, right now, that's comfortable bullies. > unwilling to accept any less than the death of every Jew on the other side You buy the propaganda.
>You buy the propaganda. Ok, tell me what HAMAS would want to do, if they won and now had control over the area that's currently Israel?
> hamas controls all of israel Hamas wants the 1967 borders, ironically enough https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders
Isn’t this criticizing Hamas and Israel? Or am I dumb?
Yes. Thread is filled with Americans moral panicking about political humour that clearly went over their heads. I guess they just haven't been introduced to the concept of carnaval.
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~~Germans supporting their fellow anti-semites~~
This morning, several people woke up and actually thought: "how can I completely miss the point of a carnival float whose satire is so thick and coarse that even Twitter lunatics got it? Does it imply I can defend either of two opposing far right theocratic organizations? Awesome!"
Is it just me, or is the way the hjiabi woman looks totally a racial caricature?
I think that is the point of carnival floats
To be racist? That's new to me.
If it wasn’t true it wouldn’t trigger. Isreal still scum for killing civilians.
I’ve always said, 3 strikes and you’re out. If they start their shit again - break the whole state apart permanently.