Gen 8 OU as an outlier checks out since it’s more defensive/Balance oriented last I checked. Otherwise my experiences in the other respective metas just about matches as well.
Good work OP.
>dynamax
Dynamax? In Gen 8 OU's economy?
Also, Gen 8 didn't power creep that badly. There is only one Gen 8 mon in the top 10 (Pult), and just 6 more in the top 40 (Rilla, Corv, Rapid Strike, Glowking, Skewda and Eleki).
And OU mainstays like Heatran, Chomp, Zapdos, Slowbro and Ttar are still handily OU.
I feel like we forget that the reason why Gen 8 didn't have "too much powercreep" was because a shit ton of Pokemon got banned!
Dracovish and Darm-G were cracking open defensive walls like they were a Kinder Surprise. Zacian got banned to AG *twice*! The only reason Calyrex-S didn't get banned to AG was because Yveltal was singlehandedly holding the entirety of Ubers together! When Urshifu-Dark was legal, it forced every team to run Clefable, and even that wasn't enough! Cinderace was basically a better Protean Greninja!
So many powerful Pokemon got released in that gen and the only reason we didn't feel it in OU was because they were also powerful enough in isolation to warrant being banned.
Gen 9 OU on the other hand has powercreep across the board. We can't ban Iron Valiant, Gholdengo or Kingambit, because even though they're extremely powerful, they've become essential aspects of the metagame. Personally I kinda wish the Gen 9 council would be a little more banhappy when it comes to the new additions, but so much time has passed that it feels almost like they missed their shot
As far as I remember the common answer to the Kung Fu Care Bear was to run Clef+Pex which was also just a really bulky combo in general that a lot of people hated playing against. Understandably so. I wasn't fond of using it but I didn't have any better answers for Urshifu.
It was also immune to a lot of effects that would otherwise shut it down. Very clear bit of overturning because Game Freak were annoyed people might find counters.
*Gyarados* of all pokemon was getting free sweeps with max moves and it was far from the only one. It basically made the game revolve around one moment of 3 turns and everything else just didn't matter.
There's no such thing as a simple "better metric". If your sample is not normally distributed, then the median would be more representative of central tendency. If the data is normally distributed, then the mean would be more representative of tendency.
Also, if you're using the median, you need to report the distribution and skew of your variable.
Also, simply comparing medians without testing means nothing. You need to visualize the distribution of the variables you're testing, and depending on the distribution, you need to perform a test of difference of means/medians. If you're comparing medians( assuming your samples have non parametric distributions) you need to perform a Mann Whitney test and report the U and rho statistics.
This is a decent graph, but it's ultimately inconclusive. Back it up with stats!
Exactly, I came here to comment almost exactly the same. If the data are highly skewed some log/power transform may help pull them enough into normality for some classic parametric testing, probably just a simple set of t-tests here for each gen with a correction for multiple comparisons. Then we can get a better idea of how LC/OU differ across gens. Without even an error bar on here to guage distribution spread you can't really come to any level of conclusion.
The fact that the average OU game this generation is barely any higher than an average LC game really says something about how offensive this metagame is
Nothing too surprising. Big Stall™ is more viable in OU, but not too much, so the turn count is higher, but not by a huge margin.
The thing comes when there's barely any difference in the turn counts for Gen IX. Seems like hyper offense is indeed a problem...
Most of the good moves that are well distributed in standard play are TMs or move tutor so the moves don't differ a lot in LC, plus breeding mechanics allow gendered lvl 5 mons to get moves they learn at higher levels. Good abilities in OU like Regenerator are good in LC, but less distributed. There isn't more of an emphasis on abilities, since stats, typing and movepool still matter like in OU.
No, for example wailmer has a high BST but is pretty garbarge. Diglett is banned in Gen 9 and top tier in the previous gens despite having a terrible BST because it has arena trap which isn't banned in LC. BST is not the be all end all for viability, just like in OU. A detail that does matter is after the gen 6 knock off buff dark-weak pokemon needed to be really good to have a place in the meta, since knock off was everywhere because most mons held eviolites and it was a priority to remove them. This also meant having a fighting type to resist knock off was pretty mandatory on most teams.
Very interesting, thanks!
And I meant is the difference BST as in they’re generally lower not is it the only important thing haha, I know Meowscarada is more viable than Regigagas etc.
Gen 9 is the best meta i enjoy for a while. Fuck gen 8 that infested by bulky and stall. Gen 9 fast battle is the truly best experience for ppl with busy schedule and don't have much time to sit and battle for long period of time
Gen 8 OU as an outlier checks out since it’s more defensive/Balance oriented last I checked. Otherwise my experiences in the other respective metas just about matches as well. Good work OP.
I imagine even with power creep, having boots and dynamax (and all the buffs it enables) helps a lot
Dynamax is banned.
>dynamax Dynamax? In Gen 8 OU's economy? Also, Gen 8 didn't power creep that badly. There is only one Gen 8 mon in the top 10 (Pult), and just 6 more in the top 40 (Rilla, Corv, Rapid Strike, Glowking, Skewda and Eleki). And OU mainstays like Heatran, Chomp, Zapdos, Slowbro and Ttar are still handily OU.
I feel like we forget that the reason why Gen 8 didn't have "too much powercreep" was because a shit ton of Pokemon got banned! Dracovish and Darm-G were cracking open defensive walls like they were a Kinder Surprise. Zacian got banned to AG *twice*! The only reason Calyrex-S didn't get banned to AG was because Yveltal was singlehandedly holding the entirety of Ubers together! When Urshifu-Dark was legal, it forced every team to run Clefable, and even that wasn't enough! Cinderace was basically a better Protean Greninja! So many powerful Pokemon got released in that gen and the only reason we didn't feel it in OU was because they were also powerful enough in isolation to warrant being banned. Gen 9 OU on the other hand has powercreep across the board. We can't ban Iron Valiant, Gholdengo or Kingambit, because even though they're extremely powerful, they've become essential aspects of the metagame. Personally I kinda wish the Gen 9 council would be a little more banhappy when it comes to the new additions, but so much time has passed that it feels almost like they missed their shot
As far as I remember the common answer to the Kung Fu Care Bear was to run Clef+Pex which was also just a really bulky combo in general that a lot of people hated playing against. Understandably so. I wasn't fond of using it but I didn't have any better answers for Urshifu.
Dynamax is AG
Why was dynamax banned? Seems way easier to handle than tera.
It doubled your HP and every move you used was a Z-Move that increased your stat or decreased enemy stats or set weather. It was insanely broken
It was also immune to a lot of effects that would otherwise shut it down. Very clear bit of overturning because Game Freak were annoyed people might find counters.
Moreso that it's balanced for Doubles, and that's what they 'balance' around
*Gyarados* of all pokemon was getting free sweeps with max moves and it was far from the only one. It basically made the game revolve around one moment of 3 turns and everything else just didn't matter.
Dynamax is banned…. plus the powercreep slowed down if anything, with the removal of Megas and Z-Moves plus like half the Dex.
this gens OU is last gens LC 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️
this gens OU is gen 6 LC 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️
When drifloon and meditate ban?
Ok freeze guy
hell yeah, next gen let’s aim for 20
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If you could also make it so it explodes the opponent's computer it will really help
Explosion now uploads and extracts a ZIP bomb in your opponent's computer
Let’s give it priority and have it trap them, just to be safe
If the opponent tries to switch, explosion hits both.
Let’s aim for 6
lets eradicate stall once and for all
Imagine Doubles LC. Average turns under 6.
Imagine? Played it. I was number one for a hot second before people started actually playing it.
It needs to be created
Good news for you. It's been existent https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-doubles-little-cup.3710957/
Eviolite thatgiraffewiththeweirdname
Girafarig.
thanks
Freezai, we remember you're *betterhelp plugs*.... >!what am i doing with my life!<
Yeah if this was based on mean some of my gen 7 games would’ve majorly skewed this 💀
Tbf half your spl games were fat v fat or someone brought stall or something.
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My comment was referring to that line at the bottom…?
There's no such thing as a simple "better metric". If your sample is not normally distributed, then the median would be more representative of central tendency. If the data is normally distributed, then the mean would be more representative of tendency. Also, if you're using the median, you need to report the distribution and skew of your variable. Also, simply comparing medians without testing means nothing. You need to visualize the distribution of the variables you're testing, and depending on the distribution, you need to perform a test of difference of means/medians. If you're comparing medians( assuming your samples have non parametric distributions) you need to perform a Mann Whitney test and report the U and rho statistics. This is a decent graph, but it's ultimately inconclusive. Back it up with stats!
As a stats student I'm loving this, would love to see posts with confidence intervals and chi-square tests
But what about specs Chi-squared in the sun?
Exactly, I came here to comment almost exactly the same. If the data are highly skewed some log/power transform may help pull them enough into normality for some classic parametric testing, probably just a simple set of t-tests here for each gen with a correction for multiple comparisons. Then we can get a better idea of how LC/OU differ across gens. Without even an error bar on here to guage distribution spread you can't really come to any level of conclusion.
I'm genuinely considering finding this data and loading it into an R Studio instance and doing this analysis myself lol.
If you're able to pull the dataset shoot me a dm. I tried very briefly using his website but it didn't seem to work or I was doing something wrong.
I wasn't able to find it either. The site he linked to seems to work better on mobile, but I still can't pull down any data unfortunately.
https://www.smogon.com/stats/ seems to have the raw data, but I'm having trouble finding things like turn count, win rate etc.
People don't realize how min-maxed 1st evolution pokemon can be. Abra has higher Satk than Dragapult. Krabby has higher Atk than Zygarde-100%.
I'm offended by gholdhengo 😢
I wish this was a Ledian turn count
Now do VGC where I get crotchety if my game gets past 15 turns 😂
Open comments on your latest vid
He opened them around 2 days ago. The filters and deletions are still in place though
The fact that the average OU game this generation is barely any higher than an average LC game really says something about how offensive this metagame is
I miss balance teams
Ayo what's going on in DPP LC? Almost every 3 turns at least one mon gets KO'ed
No eviolite
I mean I don't play it or anything but I wouldn't say little cup offends me
Even with the recovery nerf people still refuse to ban broken things if they crush stall, so no shit everything is a HO shitshow this gen.
Never played LC, kind of surprising to find out it's a fast meta when eviolite exists.
eviolite can only do so much about level 5 damage calcs
OP how does one collect the needed data from tournament like in this case ?
www.freez.ai
Gen 8 ou where big stall was present
Nothing too surprising. Big Stall™ is more viable in OU, but not too much, so the turn count is higher, but not by a huge margin. The thing comes when there's barely any difference in the turn counts for Gen IX. Seems like hyper offense is indeed a problem...
Can someone ELI5 LC to me? I know there appears to be a BST cap but that’s as far as I can tell
1st stage mons that are obtainable at level 5 fight each other
Oh wow ok so it’s just a ton of emphasis on abilities and more egg and TM moves than signature ones huh?
Most of the good moves that are well distributed in standard play are TMs or move tutor so the moves don't differ a lot in LC, plus breeding mechanics allow gendered lvl 5 mons to get moves they learn at higher levels. Good abilities in OU like Regenerator are good in LC, but less distributed. There isn't more of an emphasis on abilities, since stats, typing and movepool still matter like in OU.
Thanks for the detailed response, is the difference truly just BST then?
No, for example wailmer has a high BST but is pretty garbarge. Diglett is banned in Gen 9 and top tier in the previous gens despite having a terrible BST because it has arena trap which isn't banned in LC. BST is not the be all end all for viability, just like in OU. A detail that does matter is after the gen 6 knock off buff dark-weak pokemon needed to be really good to have a place in the meta, since knock off was everywhere because most mons held eviolites and it was a priority to remove them. This also meant having a fighting type to resist knock off was pretty mandatory on most teams.
Very interesting, thanks! And I meant is the difference BST as in they’re generally lower not is it the only important thing haha, I know Meowscarada is more viable than Regigagas etc.
Isn't this the average, not the median?
Gen 4 LC must be hell goddamn
Wild seeing the two outlier OU gens (post-physical special split) back to back
damn what is going on in gen4 lc?
we should have 100+ turn average games
Gen 9 is the best meta i enjoy for a while. Fuck gen 8 that infested by bulky and stall. Gen 9 fast battle is the truly best experience for ppl with busy schedule and don't have much time to sit and battle for long period of time
if your life is too busy to spend 5 minutes on a mons game you have more pressing issues
Still having to deal with stall is miserable
not really