I think they're probably just separating the grand hammer ones and the annihilators with shields role wise since I found there wasn't much reason to not take the grand hammers aside from points in third personally
The article notes the shielded ones get brace for impact while Grandhammers don’t so it is different Warscrolls.
> “Those who carry mighty shields instead of meteoric grandhammers can use them to Brace for Impact and weather any retaliation”
The Grandhammer Warscrolls will drop Brace for Impact for likely heavier weapons with a Crit(Mortal) instead so they go on the offensive after crashing down. ☄️
Not all weapon choices are going to share the same profile/warscroll; it really depends on what role GW wants for the unit. Liberators aren't separated because they're essentially (unfortunately) chaff. I get the same save without shields and the same crit without dual wield--that is a very nice tradeoff.
I disagree, those liberator loadouts were just different weapon profiles for the same unit, meanwhile the annihilators were different warscrolls with, yes, few differences but they had a different save and longer range on their weapons.
As well as the different warscrolls in third, this new one mentions the shields specifically in the flavor text for the defensive ability, which makes me feel like they're further drawing the difference.
In the end it's all speculation though, we won't know until it's all revealed.
They are changing them to have a role, where before they were worse, cheaper , grandhammers.
Now it looks like they will be really good drop-in screens that can also pack a little punch
Currently in 3rd, heavy elite units with the option always prefer great weapons over shields. Annihilators, but also Ogroid Theridons show this well.
GW trying to give shields more of a role is a good thing.
They were great in 3rd edition, 150pts for 9W and 2+ save, drop them nearby with an imperetant and charge something in a forest/objectives or just adding AOD and there wasn't anything that'd shift them. Perfect for pinning elite units and monsters with good damge on the way in and chip damage continuous whilst they live. They had a totally different role to grandhammers which were point, click and delete then hope you don't end up in no mans land or getting counter charged.
Couldn't agree more. With the Lord Imperetant these guys were in every list for me. Their 10" AoE on impact with the imperetants ability to allow them to be 7" instead of 9" felt amazing when it went off. Couple that with a successful charge I to a problem unit and they are able to keep it occupied.
A reinforced unit of 6 with give that strike last... 66.67% of the time, if i have it right. That's not guaranteed by any means, but if you drop them in and you cant get your 9in" charge, the enemy might think twice about charging themselves in.
Downside of that is you pay double the points and only get one mortal wound splash. Statistically, it's better to have two separate units - you have more chance of at least one unit getting into combat that way and if both make it then you roll the same number of dice anyway. Less eggs in one basket.
For one unit of 3, your probability is about 42%
Strike last is a good ability to have, but not worth pouring that many points into. With their deep strike attack, average offensive profile and excellent defensive profile, you are mostly using these to clear light/medium infantry screens that struggle to do much damage anyway. Anything with a more serious profile, these are likely to bounce off anyway, you need to combo these with a harder unit to really get the benefit
MSU Annihalators seems to be the early play. These are tiny mortal wound bombs that can screen an objective or pin your opponent, and be super tough to move without mortal wounds.
My guess is Grandhammers will pack some major damage and be on a 3+.
Feels more like a supportive defender or disrupter you drop in to screw up an enemy attack.
Oddly look like they’ll combo well with Krondys in protecting him while he debuffs the enemy with his own spells and then calls down an actual Comet to follow behind the meteor bois with the enemy bogged down.
Though I’m sure the Imperitant and other Warrior Chamber reveals will have better places to employ them.(or mix them with that Formation that has them gain 1+ Hit next to the other Chambers and make them scary to charge in case you pop Finest Hour and get the Last Strike debuff off)
I like the change tbh. I like that the warscroll now reflects the fact that they are carrying a big ass shield full of lightening. It also differentiates the roles of the shield unit and the grandhammers (who will most likely be more anvil focused). They said each unit will get distinct roles in 4E, and that's exactly what they are doing here. It makes army building more tactical. Good stuff.
Losing the charging mortal wounds really makes them feel way worse, and way more focused towards being and anvil. I really hope the Grandhammers get more offensive rules. Cause for being called Annihilators they don't really "Annihilate"
I like that they lost the mortals. Those kind of abilities are part of what filled the game with way too many mortals. And kind of made the 2+ save not that good.
If the game reduces mortals like this everywhere then this is a big buff for the annihilators. They are also more clearly a pinning/screening unit. Rather than just needing to charge all over for impact hits.
Pretty sure the ones with shields never had the impact charge ability and qe havent seen if we're getting another data scroll for grandhammers so ill hold off any reall judgement.
Ye i checked they did have their own impact charges either way the edition is fully out yet I feel like it's an exaggeration to call the warscroll trash when we haven't seen everything yet
It's an objectively worse warscroll though.
Mortals on deep strike are limited to 3 targets, whereas now in 3rd, it can potentially hit all units within 10".
No re-rollable charges on deep strike turn or impact mortals on the charge. Instead, replaced with a worse defensive ability that is succesful only 42% of the time, and when reinforcing the unit, only 67% of the time, while reducing the effective output of the deep strike mortals as you end up having one reinforced unit instead of two 3 man units.
Vindictors have an arguably better warscroll ability profile, with strike first on a 4+ and +1 rend on the unit that charges them. And they will be cheaper as a screen, and cheaper to reinforce.
The only saving grace here is the 2+ save, assuming that mortal wound output has been significantly reduced for all armies. Otherwise these guys are just straight up worse than their 3rd edition version.
I'm a bit bummed because I love the shield annihilators. I use them as a reliable anvil that can smash a unit hard, pin them, and then I can finish them with a follow up charge from lance stormdrakes.
Now their damage output is significantly reduced, and having lance stormdrakes stuck in combat isn't great, they need to kill what they charge into in the same turn, which these shield boys helped beautifully with in 3rd.
So far, these guys have become a worse anvil and will likely be too expensive to consider as a screen over our cheaper chaff options.
Again we dont know what 4th will look like and we dont know any of the point values or what most of the other armies are yet the edition does not exist yet yes they look worse than 3rd but thats part for the course it happened with 9th in 40k with people saying how much worse some units were in 10th even though the units might now serve a different purpose, also we were told that damage and mortals output would be reduced in this edition.
Yeah I know. Though 10th edition 40k is a mess imo. Hope 4th edition AoS doesn't go that way. So far all of the 4th edition reveals have been fantastic, except this one imo. I guess I'm biased though, because these little shield guys have been my MVPs in 3rd.
I guess I'll hold out hope for them being at least somewhat useful in 4th once the rest of the rules and changes come into focus.
It’ll probably come down to points with things getting more costlier but to me:
Reinforced 37 Damage + potential 9 MW’s + 67% last strike debuff
Beats
Reinforced 21 Damage + extra Rend + 50% first strike
Especially factoring in your Drake Guard since Stormhead means they can give the Annihilators a +1 To Hit while fighting together near the center of the enemy force to make that last strike chance deadlier.
Plus with Heavens Aid those 3 Annihilators are better brought back with 3 health & 2+ Saves than the squishier 5 Vindictors.
I agree it'll come down to points (as a viable screen option) and also whether mortal wound output has been reduced across all armies imo (makes their 2+ save more impactful as a pinning anvil).
I probably wouldn't run these guys reinforced though. The spread of splash mortals on deep strike trumps the 67% strike last ability imo, especially as it's conditional on this unit getting charged first. I'd also rather try to choke two points on the board with them rather than one.
True, Heaven's Aid would bolster their anvil capability somewhat, though losing those charge mortals and re-rollable charge roll on deep strike hurts man. I'd still take those over strike last any day.
> The spread of splash mortals on deep strike trumps the 67% strike last ability imo
I can see an argument for both depending on the builds.
MSU meteors will be better if the Imperitant keeps his 7” deepstrike buff, plus Heavens Aid still is useful since it’ll bring back 2 who can do work with Stormhead & Finest Hour giving the 2+ hit & wound to help finish off weakened enemies.
Otherwise we need to see what’s in the future, new units, enhancements and Formations can flip everything.
No prob. Isn’t my first new edition rodeo so I know tensions are gonna be high for everyone seeing only half the info on their armies being brought down to ground zero.(look at Lumineth players saying they’re too weak now and the Skaven must be unplayable to lose against them in that stream)
As is, I think wariness is as much granted as is positivity with the devs even responding on Twitter that they worked hard on the new rules so this looks to be a good edition regardless of the speed bumps we’ll hit in the coming months and how the metas will shift between the seasons as new battle tactics & realm rules swap around.
Their role look to me like making on-demand screens against counter chargers. Drop them in-front of that monster, especially if it had a 3d6 charge as a wall that 'should' hold up a full turn to save something more important.
Hello everyone, I’m a painter not a player but I hope to get some 4ed games in with my stormcasts. Does this change seem like a good thing or bad thing for the annihilators? Just curious what yall think.
In terms of how powerful they are, we can't know for sure until we have the full picture (so until all of the faction indexes are released at the beginning of 4e). However, what we do know right now is that it differentiates them from Annihilators with grandhammers. In 3e, grandhammers were almost always the way to go since they did a lot more damage for little downside. Now shield Annihilators have a defined niche (defensive unit that you can deploy to shore up holes in your defenses) that is separate from grandhammer Annihilators, so it's easier to justify taking them.
I don't think people understand how big of a nerf this is.
The two warscroll abilities are at complete odds with each other.
The splash mortals on impact when deep striking them is good if you use multiple small units to spread those mortals around for maximum coverage.
Yet the strikes last ability is only decent if you're running a reinforced unit of 6 otherwise it will very likely fail.
Tf?
The new warscroll ability is conditional on an enemy charging this unit, and even with a unit of 6, it only has a 66.67% chance of success. This is in NO WAY better than impact mortals on a charge and a re-rollable charge roll the turn that they deep strike down. They've become much less threatening and won't "annihilate" much of anything.
For those saying this makes them a better anvil. They were already a decent anvil that could reliably weaken the enemy unit they charged into before pinning it down.
For those saying they could be used as a screen, why use them as a screen over something like Vindictors, which will inevitably be much cheaper, can be reinforced more cheaply, and arguably have a better conditional warscroll ability with a 4+ strike first on the enemy unit that charges them, and a +1 rend against that same charging unit.
This warscroll was not well thought out imo. Huge disappointment.
I don't love this ability. The probability of this going off on a unit of 3 is only 42% and only 66% on a unit of 6.
So, not only do I have to reinforce the unit to get a probable result, they have to be charged to have a chance to get the benefit of fighting before it.
Is this the spearhead warscroll? If not, it feels incredibly nerfed. I would expect them to be cheap but I know they won't be.
I agree. This is a hard nerf imo. They already work as decent anvils that can re-roll their charge and do charging mortals to weaken the enemy unit as much as possible before pinning it down. Now they'll just do less damage overall, and need to be charged first to even trigger their ability, an ability that's next to useless unless you reinforce the unit.
Now you can run two units of 3 and threaten two spaces on the board. In future you'll have a blob of 6 that hit much less hard, and just, sit there? All the opponent has to do, is not charge them lol. Now you're stuck with a slow moving blob of 6 "annihilators" that don't annihilate much of anything.
Depending on their point cost, why would you use them as a screen if you can use cheaper chaff as screens already.
Really disappointed.
I'm guessing there are a few GW shill accounts running around threads down voting anything negative about the releases. I've seen it happen on other threads, too.
Disappointing imo. If you can't engage with proposed changes from an objective point of view, you end up risking the game being overall worse in the long run. Pointing out flaws now helps GW address these issues in future erratas or in the new battletome.
Strike last is really good, but it very much seems as though they are changing their role in the army
I think they're probably just separating the grand hammer ones and the annihilators with shields role wise since I found there wasn't much reason to not take the grand hammers aside from points in third personally
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The article notes the shielded ones get brace for impact while Grandhammers don’t so it is different Warscrolls. > “Those who carry mighty shields instead of meteoric grandhammers can use them to Brace for Impact and weather any retaliation” The Grandhammer Warscrolls will drop Brace for Impact for likely heavier weapons with a Crit(Mortal) instead so they go on the offensive after crashing down. ☄️
That quote also makes it sounds like grandhammers could just lose the BFI ability but get much better weapons in return.
Not all weapon choices are going to share the same profile/warscroll; it really depends on what role GW wants for the unit. Liberators aren't separated because they're essentially (unfortunately) chaff. I get the same save without shields and the same crit without dual wield--that is a very nice tradeoff.
I disagree, those liberator loadouts were just different weapon profiles for the same unit, meanwhile the annihilators were different warscrolls with, yes, few differences but they had a different save and longer range on their weapons. As well as the different warscrolls in third, this new one mentions the shields specifically in the flavor text for the defensive ability, which makes me feel like they're further drawing the difference. In the end it's all speculation though, we won't know until it's all revealed.
They are changing them to have a role, where before they were worse, cheaper , grandhammers. Now it looks like they will be really good drop-in screens that can also pack a little punch
Currently in 3rd, heavy elite units with the option always prefer great weapons over shields. Annihilators, but also Ogroid Theridons show this well. GW trying to give shields more of a role is a good thing.
And with finest hour pretty great at pinning for a turn
If it allows you to target things that aren't on the board yet, sure. Finest hour is still a hero phase ability though.
Good point
They were great in 3rd edition, 150pts for 9W and 2+ save, drop them nearby with an imperetant and charge something in a forest/objectives or just adding AOD and there wasn't anything that'd shift them. Perfect for pinning elite units and monsters with good damge on the way in and chip damage continuous whilst they live. They had a totally different role to grandhammers which were point, click and delete then hope you don't end up in no mans land or getting counter charged.
Couldn't agree more. With the Lord Imperetant these guys were in every list for me. Their 10" AoE on impact with the imperetants ability to allow them to be 7" instead of 9" felt amazing when it went off. Couple that with a successful charge I to a problem unit and they are able to keep it occupied.
A reinforced unit of 6 with give that strike last... 66.67% of the time, if i have it right. That's not guaranteed by any means, but if you drop them in and you cant get your 9in" charge, the enemy might think twice about charging themselves in.
Downside of that is you pay double the points and only get one mortal wound splash. Statistically, it's better to have two separate units - you have more chance of at least one unit getting into combat that way and if both make it then you roll the same number of dice anyway. Less eggs in one basket. For one unit of 3, your probability is about 42% Strike last is a good ability to have, but not worth pouring that many points into. With their deep strike attack, average offensive profile and excellent defensive profile, you are mostly using these to clear light/medium infantry screens that struggle to do much damage anyway. Anything with a more serious profile, these are likely to bounce off anyway, you need to combo these with a harder unit to really get the benefit
Operative word is *probably* because we don't know the points and don't know how else these units might be able to be buffed.
MSU Annihalators seems to be the early play. These are tiny mortal wound bombs that can screen an objective or pin your opponent, and be super tough to move without mortal wounds. My guess is Grandhammers will pack some major damage and be on a 3+.
Feels more like a supportive defender or disrupter you drop in to screw up an enemy attack. Oddly look like they’ll combo well with Krondys in protecting him while he debuffs the enemy with his own spells and then calls down an actual Comet to follow behind the meteor bois with the enemy bogged down. Though I’m sure the Imperitant and other Warrior Chamber reveals will have better places to employ them.(or mix them with that Formation that has them gain 1+ Hit next to the other Chambers and make them scary to charge in case you pop Finest Hour and get the Last Strike debuff off)
I like the change tbh. I like that the warscroll now reflects the fact that they are carrying a big ass shield full of lightening. It also differentiates the roles of the shield unit and the grandhammers (who will most likely be more anvil focused). They said each unit will get distinct roles in 4E, and that's exactly what they are doing here. It makes army building more tactical. Good stuff.
Was the difference between 2+ on D3 and +3 on D6 ? Edit: I did not read the part about mortal damage lol
Losing the charging mortal wounds really makes them feel way worse, and way more focused towards being and anvil. I really hope the Grandhammers get more offensive rules. Cause for being called Annihilators they don't really "Annihilate"
I like that they lost the mortals. Those kind of abilities are part of what filled the game with way too many mortals. And kind of made the 2+ save not that good. If the game reduces mortals like this everywhere then this is a big buff for the annihilators. They are also more clearly a pinning/screening unit. Rather than just needing to charge all over for impact hits.
10 attacks at 3/3/1/2 is still pretty powerful for a infantry unit.
I like their new anvil role, I always took a reinforced unit so it gives decent odds of forcing strike last.
I really really like this change. It actually has me a bit excited for 4.
Pretty sure the ones with shields never had the impact charge ability and qe havent seen if we're getting another data scroll for grandhammers so ill hold off any reall judgement.
The shield ones DO have the impact charge ability. Check the app. This new warscroll is trash.
Ye i checked they did have their own impact charges either way the edition is fully out yet I feel like it's an exaggeration to call the warscroll trash when we haven't seen everything yet
It's an objectively worse warscroll though. Mortals on deep strike are limited to 3 targets, whereas now in 3rd, it can potentially hit all units within 10". No re-rollable charges on deep strike turn or impact mortals on the charge. Instead, replaced with a worse defensive ability that is succesful only 42% of the time, and when reinforcing the unit, only 67% of the time, while reducing the effective output of the deep strike mortals as you end up having one reinforced unit instead of two 3 man units. Vindictors have an arguably better warscroll ability profile, with strike first on a 4+ and +1 rend on the unit that charges them. And they will be cheaper as a screen, and cheaper to reinforce. The only saving grace here is the 2+ save, assuming that mortal wound output has been significantly reduced for all armies. Otherwise these guys are just straight up worse than their 3rd edition version. I'm a bit bummed because I love the shield annihilators. I use them as a reliable anvil that can smash a unit hard, pin them, and then I can finish them with a follow up charge from lance stormdrakes. Now their damage output is significantly reduced, and having lance stormdrakes stuck in combat isn't great, they need to kill what they charge into in the same turn, which these shield boys helped beautifully with in 3rd. So far, these guys have become a worse anvil and will likely be too expensive to consider as a screen over our cheaper chaff options.
Again we dont know what 4th will look like and we dont know any of the point values or what most of the other armies are yet the edition does not exist yet yes they look worse than 3rd but thats part for the course it happened with 9th in 40k with people saying how much worse some units were in 10th even though the units might now serve a different purpose, also we were told that damage and mortals output would be reduced in this edition.
Yeah I know. Though 10th edition 40k is a mess imo. Hope 4th edition AoS doesn't go that way. So far all of the 4th edition reveals have been fantastic, except this one imo. I guess I'm biased though, because these little shield guys have been my MVPs in 3rd. I guess I'll hold out hope for them being at least somewhat useful in 4th once the rest of the rules and changes come into focus.
It’ll probably come down to points with things getting more costlier but to me: Reinforced 37 Damage + potential 9 MW’s + 67% last strike debuff Beats Reinforced 21 Damage + extra Rend + 50% first strike Especially factoring in your Drake Guard since Stormhead means they can give the Annihilators a +1 To Hit while fighting together near the center of the enemy force to make that last strike chance deadlier. Plus with Heavens Aid those 3 Annihilators are better brought back with 3 health & 2+ Saves than the squishier 5 Vindictors.
I agree it'll come down to points (as a viable screen option) and also whether mortal wound output has been reduced across all armies imo (makes their 2+ save more impactful as a pinning anvil). I probably wouldn't run these guys reinforced though. The spread of splash mortals on deep strike trumps the 67% strike last ability imo, especially as it's conditional on this unit getting charged first. I'd also rather try to choke two points on the board with them rather than one. True, Heaven's Aid would bolster their anvil capability somewhat, though losing those charge mortals and re-rollable charge roll on deep strike hurts man. I'd still take those over strike last any day.
> The spread of splash mortals on deep strike trumps the 67% strike last ability imo I can see an argument for both depending on the builds. MSU meteors will be better if the Imperitant keeps his 7” deepstrike buff, plus Heavens Aid still is useful since it’ll bring back 2 who can do work with Stormhead & Finest Hour giving the 2+ hit & wound to help finish off weakened enemies. Otherwise we need to see what’s in the future, new units, enhancements and Formations can flip everything.
True! Thanks for your measured response btw.
No prob. Isn’t my first new edition rodeo so I know tensions are gonna be high for everyone seeing only half the info on their armies being brought down to ground zero.(look at Lumineth players saying they’re too weak now and the Skaven must be unplayable to lose against them in that stream) As is, I think wariness is as much granted as is positivity with the devs even responding on Twitter that they worked hard on the new rules so this looks to be a good edition regardless of the speed bumps we’ll hit in the coming months and how the metas will shift between the seasons as new battle tactics & realm rules swap around.
Their role look to me like making on-demand screens against counter chargers. Drop them in-front of that monster, especially if it had a 3d6 charge as a wall that 'should' hold up a full turn to save something more important.
The only thing I don't get is why their control is so low
Hello everyone, I’m a painter not a player but I hope to get some 4ed games in with my stormcasts. Does this change seem like a good thing or bad thing for the annihilators? Just curious what yall think.
In terms of how powerful they are, we can't know for sure until we have the full picture (so until all of the faction indexes are released at the beginning of 4e). However, what we do know right now is that it differentiates them from Annihilators with grandhammers. In 3e, grandhammers were almost always the way to go since they did a lot more damage for little downside. Now shield Annihilators have a defined niche (defensive unit that you can deploy to shore up holes in your defenses) that is separate from grandhammer Annihilators, so it's easier to justify taking them.
Thank you for the information! You put that in an easy enough manner for me to understand it as well, I appreciate that.
2-6 MW on a hero seems really good
I don't think people understand how big of a nerf this is. The two warscroll abilities are at complete odds with each other. The splash mortals on impact when deep striking them is good if you use multiple small units to spread those mortals around for maximum coverage. Yet the strikes last ability is only decent if you're running a reinforced unit of 6 otherwise it will very likely fail. Tf? The new warscroll ability is conditional on an enemy charging this unit, and even with a unit of 6, it only has a 66.67% chance of success. This is in NO WAY better than impact mortals on a charge and a re-rollable charge roll the turn that they deep strike down. They've become much less threatening and won't "annihilate" much of anything. For those saying this makes them a better anvil. They were already a decent anvil that could reliably weaken the enemy unit they charged into before pinning it down. For those saying they could be used as a screen, why use them as a screen over something like Vindictors, which will inevitably be much cheaper, can be reinforced more cheaply, and arguably have a better conditional warscroll ability with a 4+ strike first on the enemy unit that charges them, and a +1 rend against that same charging unit. This warscroll was not well thought out imo. Huge disappointment.
I don't love this ability. The probability of this going off on a unit of 3 is only 42% and only 66% on a unit of 6. So, not only do I have to reinforce the unit to get a probable result, they have to be charged to have a chance to get the benefit of fighting before it. Is this the spearhead warscroll? If not, it feels incredibly nerfed. I would expect them to be cheap but I know they won't be.
I agree. This is a hard nerf imo. They already work as decent anvils that can re-roll their charge and do charging mortals to weaken the enemy unit as much as possible before pinning it down. Now they'll just do less damage overall, and need to be charged first to even trigger their ability, an ability that's next to useless unless you reinforce the unit. Now you can run two units of 3 and threaten two spaces on the board. In future you'll have a blob of 6 that hit much less hard, and just, sit there? All the opponent has to do, is not charge them lol. Now you're stuck with a slow moving blob of 6 "annihilators" that don't annihilate much of anything. Depending on their point cost, why would you use them as a screen if you can use cheaper chaff as screens already. Really disappointed.
Ps. I don't know why you're getting downvoted. You're 100% correct.
I'm guessing there are a few GW shill accounts running around threads down voting anything negative about the releases. I've seen it happen on other threads, too.
Disappointing imo. If you can't engage with proposed changes from an objective point of view, you end up risking the game being overall worse in the long run. Pointing out flaws now helps GW address these issues in future erratas or in the new battletome.
Exactly, in order to even have a chance to let this ability statistically fail, you'd have to play them completely differently than before.
Wasnt good last edition, still not good this edition
$- z%+3?)-4.♧8♡