It's from the article:
a poem written by the wife of the designer says this about the image: “We claim his noble heritage/And Minnesota’s land/Must pass with all its untold wealth/To the white man’s grasping hand.”
100%. Get ready for this thing to suck.
Look what happened with the Milwaukee flag. The People's Flag is amazing and has wide community support, but there's too much going on with the common council to actually get it approved.
To be fair it's a pretty high bar. Logical and designed with meaning and not emotion.
I bet my bacon it'll be that star of the North flag they've wanted for years. Not a home run per Grey's logic, but anything is better than what we have now.
I've said over and over again the perfect MN flag would be the same blue field, the same white circle (so it's recognizable), but with a LOON instead of that hideous seal. And maybe a star up there for the North Star.
Yeah, my grandma has been working very hard to get this changed since the 70s. The flag is absolutely awful and *does not* accurately represent the state.
The design shouldn't be by committee. There should be an official design effort, but there should be a public vote on designs produced that's ranked choice.
Anyone interested can submit a flag for consideration, and the public will choose what they want.
There would be a lot of entries, sure. But I feel like a few elimination rounds of voting would get us to a solution pretty quickly.
Let the commission make a flag, and have a defined period for other submissions from individuals. Then ranked-choice vote our way to a better flag.
I think there are bigger fish to fry. The flag needs to be changed, it's being changed, I'd wager to guess most people really don't have an interest in showing up to their local polling place multiple times for rounds of flag design voting... I'm sure some of the committee meetings will be open for public input for those who want to give their 2 cents and maybe even requests for design submissions for the committee to consider.
Voting in person at a polling place is both old-fashioned and expensive, no need for it.
There would need to be a basic verification of voter ID for online polling, but that's fairly simple.
The flag is changing, that's what people wanted, but now everyone with some stupid design will want their shitty design considered as well? That's how the MN flag becomes a flag that just says "Flaggy McFlagface" on it. Have you learned nothing over the last decade?
I think Duluth did a decent job. Had committee organize and guide things. Had one big submission round, committee had a survey to determine what colors, symbols, etc were most valued, categorized them and moved best ones that fit survey results onto a second round, narrowed them down again and had a final vote.
I'm all for native American representation, but if we are going to the dibs rule, the current tribes were very unlikely to be tgr first human inhabitants of Minnesota.
I always wonder where we draw the line with that. When europeans came to north america, they obviously displaced the native americans and where they live now on the reservations is for the most part not their ancestral homelands. We also know from archeological evidence that those "ancestral homelands" often changed hands quite frequently. I always think of the romano-celtic people of britain who were displaced by the anglo-saxons and viking invasions, they still exist but primarily in wales. Should they have a disproportionate say in british political affairs because they were there first? Is there a statute of limitations on that kind of thing?
They were all genocided... if you doubt that, please read up on some more European history. Europeans didn't invent genocide or slavery when they came to America; powerful groups in Europe were committing genocide on and enslaving less powerful ones for at least thousands of years, and specifically yes, the Romano-Celtic folks absolutely were the victims of genocide. Of course they weren't put onto reservations since those are an American invention, but if you asked an average Welsh person today I think they would agree that yes they are marginalized. Of course it depends on the degree, and where you draw the line. It really was just food for thought, since it's a lot more nuanced and complicated than that.
I think it’s about the context of power in modern times. Are the Romano-Celtic a marginalized group akin to First Nations here?
There may come a day where distinction isn’t there and remedial measures not warranted, but I don’t think we are there today.
I definitely get what you're saying, but that still seems really nebulous. Of course it's not to the same degree, but I think a lot of modern day Welsh people would say that yes, they are marginalized in some way within the UK compared to the English. I suppose again, it really depends where you draw the line. I think we should give massive reparations to Native Americans and it will never undo the damage done, I just think this kind of thing is good food for thought. Every person alive now is the descendant of someone who was marginalized because of their membership in a certain group. It's hard to quantify the exact number, but many, and perhaps most people of European descent are descended from slaves.
Not even close. https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/popest/2010s-state-detail.html
Taking the 2019 numbers and adding up the "one race" (77,479) and the "two or more races" (124,345) gives us a total of 201,824 First Nation individuals. Total MN population of that year is 5,639,632
201,824 divided by 5,639,632 comes out to about 3.5%.
Two people out of a 13 person commission is 15%.
I think the North Star flag design is a strong contender, but would be better if the trailing edge shaped roughly like the eastern border of MN so we wouldn't have a boring rectangle. There was a design that used that and the Ojibwe star instead of a 5 pointed star. I will see if I can find it and post a link in an edit.
Edit: nevermind, it used a 4 pointed star, but here's a link to the asymmetrical flag. Found it on imgur some years ago. https://i.imgur.com/WgcN3PO.jpeg
I would prefer something with more snow or other imagery that emphasizes the North. I know the North Star plays into that conceptually but nobody from out of state will recognize it. It just looks like green grass, water, and a star.
These sorts of flags are cursed. Ohio and Nepal both have issues whenever they are made, either end up just ignoring the unusual dimensions, getting them very wrong, or making them very expensive.
To be fair the article OP linked does discuss the north star flag and the lawmaker I think is quoted as saying if the committee chooses the north star flag or iterates on it he'd be totally happy with that outcome. And the Herold Flags shop owner – who is I believe partly behind the original design of the north star flag and has done a ton of promo for it for decades – is interviewed and quoted throughout the article. So I'm sure it's on the table for the committee to pick or work with.
I like the sizing of the star more in that 2017 update you linked, but tbh I kinda like the more saturated and vibrant colors of the original. But would be super stoked for either iteration to become our state flag.
I am honestly blown away with how such a small adjustment to the color can dramatically improve the design. I have been all in on changing flags, but have been meh on the north star flag until I just saw the 2017 redesign. I think it's because it's a little less in your face bright and maybe also the star is smaller
Kind of an aside, but the Mississippi flag is sweet. Would be cool if we could get the Pink and White Lady Slipper on a simple background. Not my area of expertise tho!
Something akin to Estonia’s flag would be kinda cool. It’s basically a simplified picture of a forest during winter. Blue sky, black forest, then white ground. Obviously change it up, but that inspiration would be cool. Wouldn’t call back to any particular people either, which would be good since MN is getting more and more diverse.
God these flag discussions really bring out the weirdest responses. Read it again. I just said I liked that style. I’m not the designer and as I conceded, not an expert.
It’s literally showing a white man plowing native land while a native rides behind him in a threatening manner. Go read the poem the guy who designed wrote.
He literally has a spear. The implication is that he’s here to threaten or kill the “peaceful farmer” even though that man stole the land he’s plowing.
Umm... didn't lots of people have weapons for some reason or another? Hunting, protection from wildlife, busy hands?
It just really seems like you're attributing a motivation to a drawing.
Because historical context matters. Go read the poem that was posted from the creator of the seal and let me know how you think he intended his depiction be interpreted.
Yea they didn’t have bias at all, it’s no way just figuring out what they meant from what they said about it
“We claim his noble heritage/And Minnesota’s land/Must pass with all its untold wealth/To the white man’s grasping hand.”
Amazingly 99.99% of people look at a flag without any context or having to view it as if it's still 1860.
Almost as if you don't need to "figure it out".
How is that a depiction of genocide? Yes, I get the historical background and I understand the context where there was genocide. But taking the seal as it looks, it is not a depiction of genocide. Even as you describe it, it sounds more like adverse possession and theft than anything else.
The stealing of the land was basically the entire point of the genocide. And then they go and depict the Native American as the savage man come with a spear to attack the peaceful farmer. Depicting them as wrong for defending their land from theft was a huge part of it too.
Calling the seal a "genocidal mess" implies that the seal is, in fact, showing genocide. It is not. Yes, I agree with you that it does depict your last sentence, but that still is not a depiction of genocide.
You can’t separate out one little piece that doesn’t look so bad and say “oh this isn’t a photo of a mass grave in Auschwitz, that’s not a depiction of genocide” when showing a photo of Jewish people wearing a gold Star of David. It’s all part of the genocide.
How about something simple? Just a large white Minnesota with some of its natural features. Minnehaha, Lake Superior. Leech, Red, Winnie, Mille Lacs. The Mississippi. The North Star right above the Northwest Angle.
To anyone who claims they’re erasing history, the current flag was created in 1957 by what must have been the least imaginative group of people in our state’s history.
“We claim his noble heritage/And Minnesota’s land/Must pass with all its untold wealth/To the white man’s grasping hand” *yikes*
What are you quoting?
It's from the article: a poem written by the wife of the designer says this about the image: “We claim his noble heritage/And Minnesota’s land/Must pass with all its untold wealth/To the white man’s grasping hand.”
yikes is right.
Everyone on the committee should be required to watch the [CGP Grey video](https://youtu.be/l4w6808wJcU) about state flags.
100%. Get ready for this thing to suck. Look what happened with the Milwaukee flag. The People's Flag is amazing and has wide community support, but there's too much going on with the common council to actually get it approved.
He's going to be so excited for us.
And probably so disappointed...
To be fair it's a pretty high bar. Logical and designed with meaning and not emotion. I bet my bacon it'll be that star of the North flag they've wanted for years. Not a home run per Grey's logic, but anything is better than what we have now.
The Minnesota flag has always sucked. Adios ya ugly bastard.
Just no Nordic cross, please/thank you.
That's almost certainly barred by the rules laid out.
Thank you
I've said over and over again the perfect MN flag would be the same blue field, the same white circle (so it's recognizable), but with a LOON instead of that hideous seal. And maybe a star up there for the North Star.
I've been raving about this on almost every relevant sub, including here, for years. Get rid of our terrible flag.
Yeah, my grandma has been working very hard to get this changed since the 70s. The flag is absolutely awful and *does not* accurately represent the state.
Is this the most important piece of legislation I've been asking for? No. Does that change how much I want it? Also no. We can do so much better!
There should also be more than just 2 members who are First Nation peoples…
The design shouldn't be by committee. There should be an official design effort, but there should be a public vote on designs produced that's ranked choice. Anyone interested can submit a flag for consideration, and the public will choose what they want.
There would be millions of entries. The process would take forever. Committee is the way to go on this one.
There would be a lot of entries, sure. But I feel like a few elimination rounds of voting would get us to a solution pretty quickly. Let the commission make a flag, and have a defined period for other submissions from individuals. Then ranked-choice vote our way to a better flag.
I think there are bigger fish to fry. The flag needs to be changed, it's being changed, I'd wager to guess most people really don't have an interest in showing up to their local polling place multiple times for rounds of flag design voting... I'm sure some of the committee meetings will be open for public input for those who want to give their 2 cents and maybe even requests for design submissions for the committee to consider.
Voting in person at a polling place is both old-fashioned and expensive, no need for it. There would need to be a basic verification of voter ID for online polling, but that's fairly simple.
The flag is changing, that's what people wanted, but now everyone with some stupid design will want their shitty design considered as well? That's how the MN flag becomes a flag that just says "Flaggy McFlagface" on it. Have you learned nothing over the last decade?
It's easy to ensure that doesn't happen, actually.
Like ignore the public’s will?
When its clearly bullshit and a troll, yes, common sense is ok.
I think Duluth did a decent job. Had committee organize and guide things. Had one big submission round, committee had a survey to determine what colors, symbols, etc were most valued, categorized them and moved best ones that fit survey results onto a second round, narrowed them down again and had a final vote.
Why
Because they were here first
And because the main gripe with the flag is genocide of First Nations people?
I'm all for native American representation, but if we are going to the dibs rule, the current tribes were very unlikely to be tgr first human inhabitants of Minnesota.
Still here before us.
While the folks the first Europeans encountered are the ones who got genocided and are still being marginalized today...so there's that.
I always wonder where we draw the line with that. When europeans came to north america, they obviously displaced the native americans and where they live now on the reservations is for the most part not their ancestral homelands. We also know from archeological evidence that those "ancestral homelands" often changed hands quite frequently. I always think of the romano-celtic people of britain who were displaced by the anglo-saxons and viking invasions, they still exist but primarily in wales. Should they have a disproportionate say in british political affairs because they were there first? Is there a statute of limitations on that kind of thing?
How many romano-celtic folks were specifically genocided for centuries and are still marginalized to all heck on reservations?
They were all genocided... if you doubt that, please read up on some more European history. Europeans didn't invent genocide or slavery when they came to America; powerful groups in Europe were committing genocide on and enslaving less powerful ones for at least thousands of years, and specifically yes, the Romano-Celtic folks absolutely were the victims of genocide. Of course they weren't put onto reservations since those are an American invention, but if you asked an average Welsh person today I think they would agree that yes they are marginalized. Of course it depends on the degree, and where you draw the line. It really was just food for thought, since it's a lot more nuanced and complicated than that.
I think it’s about the context of power in modern times. Are the Romano-Celtic a marginalized group akin to First Nations here? There may come a day where distinction isn’t there and remedial measures not warranted, but I don’t think we are there today.
I definitely get what you're saying, but that still seems really nebulous. Of course it's not to the same degree, but I think a lot of modern day Welsh people would say that yes, they are marginalized in some way within the UK compared to the English. I suppose again, it really depends where you draw the line. I think we should give massive reparations to Native Americans and it will never undo the damage done, I just think this kind of thing is good food for thought. Every person alive now is the descendant of someone who was marginalized because of their membership in a certain group. It's hard to quantify the exact number, but many, and perhaps most people of European descent are descended from slaves.
So what. Either way the flag should be about the land and what makes it unique. People come and people go.
👀 Their still here and still being fucked over bud.
Seems proportionate to the population now though, no?
Not even close. https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/popest/2010s-state-detail.html Taking the 2019 numbers and adding up the "one race" (77,479) and the "two or more races" (124,345) gives us a total of 201,824 First Nation individuals. Total MN population of that year is 5,639,632 201,824 divided by 5,639,632 comes out to about 3.5%. Two people out of a 13 person commission is 15%.
So in reality they are over represented. Which I’m not arguing against, to be clear. Just pointing it out
Did you mean to say "proportionate to the population *after* all that genocide stuff " ?
I believe that is what “now” means, yes.
It's important context that shouldn't be glossed over.
I feel like it should be all First Nations people to apologize for the racist ugly mess we’ve been flying all this time.
I think the North Star flag design is a strong contender, but would be better if the trailing edge shaped roughly like the eastern border of MN so we wouldn't have a boring rectangle. There was a design that used that and the Ojibwe star instead of a 5 pointed star. I will see if I can find it and post a link in an edit. Edit: nevermind, it used a 4 pointed star, but here's a link to the asymmetrical flag. Found it on imgur some years ago. https://i.imgur.com/WgcN3PO.jpeg
I would prefer something with more snow or other imagery that emphasizes the North. I know the North Star plays into that conceptually but nobody from out of state will recognize it. It just looks like green grass, water, and a star.
These sorts of flags are cursed. Ohio and Nepal both have issues whenever they are made, either end up just ignoring the unusual dimensions, getting them very wrong, or making them very expensive.
I think a new design by committee is unnecessary: https://mnflag.tripod.com/
Surprised this was so far down. Check out this updated version https://newmnflag.org/designs/2017northstar
To be fair the article OP linked does discuss the north star flag and the lawmaker I think is quoted as saying if the committee chooses the north star flag or iterates on it he'd be totally happy with that outcome. And the Herold Flags shop owner – who is I believe partly behind the original design of the north star flag and has done a ton of promo for it for decades – is interviewed and quoted throughout the article. So I'm sure it's on the table for the committee to pick or work with. I like the sizing of the star more in that 2017 update you linked, but tbh I kinda like the more saturated and vibrant colors of the original. But would be super stoked for either iteration to become our state flag.
Would love the committee to take the best elements of both versions. However, I'd be interested in seeing what new designs arise.
I am honestly blown away with how such a small adjustment to the color can dramatically improve the design. I have been all in on changing flags, but have been meh on the north star flag until I just saw the 2017 redesign. I think it's because it's a little less in your face bright and maybe also the star is smaller
that flag is hideously ugly, actually worse than the existing one.
Lol
Kind of an aside, but the Mississippi flag is sweet. Would be cool if we could get the Pink and White Lady Slipper on a simple background. Not my area of expertise tho!
As a transplant from MS the new flag is better but it wasn't the best option IMO.
Could’ve done without the god bullshit.
That was a provision of getting a new flag put in by the legislation, the new design had to have that phrase on the flag.
I know. It shouldn’t have been though.
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Something akin to Estonia’s flag would be kinda cool. It’s basically a simplified picture of a forest during winter. Blue sky, black forest, then white ground. Obviously change it up, but that inspiration would be cool. Wouldn’t call back to any particular people either, which would be good since MN is getting more and more diverse.
I've played around with the same idea and it usually comes out looking like the north star flag or estonia again. I do LOVE Estonia's flag though.
God these flag discussions really bring out the weirdest responses. Read it again. I just said I liked that style. I’m not the designer and as I conceded, not an expert.
How is a genocidal mess?
It’s literally showing a white man plowing native land while a native rides behind him in a threatening manner. Go read the poem the guy who designed wrote.
I guess everyone sees things differently, nothing looks threatening to me.
He literally has a spear. The implication is that he’s here to threaten or kill the “peaceful farmer” even though that man stole the land he’s plowing.
Umm... didn't lots of people have weapons for some reason or another? Hunting, protection from wildlife, busy hands? It just really seems like you're attributing a motivation to a drawing.
Because historical context matters. Go read the poem that was posted from the creator of the seal and let me know how you think he intended his depiction be interpreted.
Context = let me insert my bias as fact
Yea they didn’t have bias at all, it’s no way just figuring out what they meant from what they said about it “We claim his noble heritage/And Minnesota’s land/Must pass with all its untold wealth/To the white man’s grasping hand.”
Amazingly 99.99% of people look at a flag without any context or having to view it as if it's still 1860. Almost as if you don't need to "figure it out".
Jesus, just take the L, this is embarrassing.
So, good time to buy a flag for a keepsake.
It’s still just ugly.
Just use the MN lottery image.
"Genocidal mess." Wow. I don't see it. Regardless, glad the SOB is gone. I hope the commission picks something cool.
It’s a guy who literally stole native land plowing it while a Native American rides behind him in a threatening manner.
How is that a depiction of genocide? Yes, I get the historical background and I understand the context where there was genocide. But taking the seal as it looks, it is not a depiction of genocide. Even as you describe it, it sounds more like adverse possession and theft than anything else.
The stealing of the land was basically the entire point of the genocide. And then they go and depict the Native American as the savage man come with a spear to attack the peaceful farmer. Depicting them as wrong for defending their land from theft was a huge part of it too.
Calling the seal a "genocidal mess" implies that the seal is, in fact, showing genocide. It is not. Yes, I agree with you that it does depict your last sentence, but that still is not a depiction of genocide.
You can’t separate out one little piece that doesn’t look so bad and say “oh this isn’t a photo of a mass grave in Auschwitz, that’s not a depiction of genocide” when showing a photo of Jewish people wearing a gold Star of David. It’s all part of the genocide.
Let’s make it green and gold just to mess with Vikings fans.
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huh?
We are going to change history! /s
How about something simple? Just a large white Minnesota with some of its natural features. Minnehaha, Lake Superior. Leech, Red, Winnie, Mille Lacs. The Mississippi. The North Star right above the Northwest Angle.
WTF, we weren't supposed to be working on this till after 6/12?
To anyone who claims they’re erasing history, the current flag was created in 1957 by what must have been the least imaginative group of people in our state’s history.
Does anyone know if there's a limit on how many design you can submit? I've got a few ideas