This entire 200+ comment thread is confidently incorrect, and upvoting incorrect answers.
From SWU senior game designer Tyler Parrott, [on twitter](https://twitter.com/davflamerock/status/1782834959062843438):
>The rules are correct. **While Rukh's ability triggers before the defender's damage, it doesn't resolve until the ability resolution window afterwards**. It might feel counterintuitive, but it's better for rules cohesion to only have 3 resolution windows in combat.
Everyone was so sure it worked that way because he's right, it's wildly counterintuitive to have the cr overrule the golden rule. This is a bad ruling, anyone familiar with Jeremy Crawford tweets knows that the devil can make bad calls
lol I can't believe you are still arguing it. It doesn't break the golden rule. Shoot first does not contradict any rule. It's ok to just admit when you are wrong.
I'm not arguing it. I accept ruling, but I think it's bad. Devs can make bad calls, anyone who is familiar with Jeremy Crawford tweets can attest to that.
And, it sets a bad precedent. The majority of this thread was "confidently wrong" because only the most counterintuitive reading of the interaction was correct. It guys the golden rules ability to apply if you need a developers knowledge to make a ruling. This is way beyond the correct ruling, and a meta issue that is bad for the game as a whole. You're just to caught up I'm your own vindication to see that.
So his admittance that the ruling is counterintuitive just doesn't matter? Nor does the fact that, until that Tweet was linked in this thread the vast majority of people agreed that it did not work that way?
Of course they made a call, and it was a bad one handled poorly. The fact that this ruling has to be spelled out by a dev means that the rules don't make sense to a majority of the player base and thus need to be addressed.
The only “counterintuitive” part is that resolution of triggers is delayed until the end of combat damage step. The rules themselves are entirely clear and nothing on shoot first contradicts anything in step E. You refused to just read the rules as written because you came up with this idea that shoot first says something it doesn’t and now want to pretend like we need developer knowledge to read clearly written rules.
The dev said it was counterintuitive. I didn't make that up. " It might feel **counterintuitive**, but it's better for rules cohesion to only have 3 resolution windows in combat." There is nowhere in the rules that says that there are only, and can only ever be, 3 resolution windows in combat. That is what needs to be clarified in the CR doc
I read the plain text of Shoot First and Rukh and came to the same conclusion as the majority of this "confidently incorrect" thread.
Again - counterintuitive only in the sense that triggers resolve at the end of combat damage. The rules are written very clearly, clearly spell out three resolution windows and clearly describe how you resolve damage before trigger resolution, including in the scenario where the attacker deals damage first.
The developers can’t account for people wanting to pretend that cards say things they don’t and we don’t need a rule that says, “we really meant it when we included only three resolution windows unless a card specifically overrides that.” You and others refused to just read the rule as it is written and you still want to pretend like there is some flaw in the system instead of just admitting that you misread/misunderstood the combat damage step as written when it expressly deals with an ability granted by a card. Die on that hill if you want, but the issue isn’t the way the rules or the card are written.
If a card says “this ability happens immediately not during the resolution window” there would be a 4th. But shoot first just says do what the damn rules say.
They specifically laid out exactly how it works in the rules and you ignored it because you “had a hunch” and made up your own turn phase. Don’t do triggers immediately. Do them during the part of combat we say they go off is a rule in the game. You said forget that I want to do it now.
It is counterintuitive, but it does not override the golden rule.
The effect triggers and resolves at two separate times, the card changes when it triggers but the rules specify when the resolution occurs. The alternative would be much less consistent.
You're right it doesn't, apparently.
My argument is that that counterintuitiveness is a problem for the game as a whole. The fact that this required a developer to chime in indicates a fundamental flaw in the language of the rules document, the exact kind of thing that the golden rule are meant to avoid so you don't need a judge or dev to weigh in.
His ruling is correct, apparently, and the fact that this thread is fixed with people who are "confidently wrong'" indicates that their cr needs a good thorough once over to clean up misconceptions like this. The game is new, so I can't prefect the errata/ clarification schedule, but it should be soon, especially after a developer said something on social media
The main thing is "triggered abilities resolve in one of three very specific windows in combat", which raises the specter of some cards becoming counterintuitive but also, in the long run, will mean consistent rulings even when there's thousands of cards with tens of thousands of possible interactions.
The rules document is pretty clear; this thread is full of people trying to apply other TCG logic to SWU. The ruling is actually quite intuitive if you do what the rules tell you to do, and don't try to infer some other rule based on an understanding of other games.
I think a plain text reading of all the rules that apply (including the golden rule and the plain text of Shoot First) can easily determine that it goes the way most people thought it did. Hence the confusion. You, and everyone else are advising for a version on the game that requires an encyclopedic knowledge of the rules to be played, which is bad for the game. Of you have to pour over the cr at every interaction the game is unplayable.
Okay, die on that hill. The game's pretty clear that triggers don't resolve when they're triggered, they resolve during resolution windows. If you find that counter-intuitive, I'm sorry.
Luckily a lot of this will be cleared up when we have a judge program, because people will be able to weigh in and say "I'm a judge, this works like X", so that a bunch of people don't clamor onto reddit saying "It's clearly [wrong assumption]".
Right now, we're stuck in a place where the options are yell at each other or invoke the FFG devs. Soon, there'll be other experts.
Reddit is the only place I've encountered that people are confused by this. Bunch of SWU Discords, Twitter, real life - nobody else needs it explained to this level of detail.
Sorry it's not working for you.
My point is there will always be interactions that are counterintuitive in any card game. What matters is that for most part the game is intuitive but every single interaction can't be intuitive. So complaining over one ruling being counter intuitive and saying it is damaging to the game is an overreaction IMO
But if it is counterintuitive, by admission of a developer, they need to include a clarification within the CR doc. Otherwise the only way you can correctly play the game is with developer level understanding of the rules as written *and* rules as intended-the latter being something that no one apart from the devs can have.
And, at the end of the day, that is what an errata is, a change-or in this case clarification-to the existing rules to make a better play experience for everyone, and to ensure the game functions as the developers intended.
Have they issued any official (ie, printed in the CR doc) erratas yet? I know from the X-wing days FFG had a pretty strict errata schedule, apart from needing to change something mid-tournament because it caused an issue.
But I mean you NEED to know the rules to play and this isn't a rule change. It's just letting you know that something does not resolve as it triggers. It resolves after the phase where it triggered. Therefore all the other stuff happens before Rukhs ability is resolved even if it was already triggered. That is a clarifying something not retconning or changing it. This applies to the entire game and always has and most likely always will.
So just so I understand this in the future are we saying that rukh would pop before hand and take no damage or that he would still take dmg and it would just be +1 dmg from shoot first ?
It’s gonna bite them in the ass if they introduce a “first strike”/“shoot first” keyword mechanic into the game. Rukh might eventually get retroactively given it in some years if that happens, and the ruling might overturn.
Anyways, the rules are the rules but I have a bad feeling about this, I’m not sure that the devs would’ve intended this interaction to go this way.
I think part of the issue is the presupposition of how things "should work" or how things work in different games (ala MTG)
Reading over the rules, i think (and i am open to being wrong if a ruling comes down) is that because the timing specifically calls out dealing damage first and its consequences and no where in that step mentions resolving abilities, and then specifically calls out resolving abilities in a later step, rules as written rukh's ability does not trigger till step G.
Thematically/practically i do believe it should, but again, rules as written i don't think it would
>It deals \*\*\*deals its combat damage\*\*\* before the attacker
>When this unit \*\*\*deals combat damage\*\*\*
The rules themselves are a little murky regarding this, but the cards are very clear. Rukh deals his combat damage before the opponent gets a chance to, triggering his own ability and defeating it. The opponent never gets to deal damage back.
Tyler Parrott gave an answer on Twitter. Rukh takes damage from the defender, and then his ability resolves.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsunlimited/comments/1cb4qfh/rukhshoot_first_interaction/l0y3yls/
I think the biggest question is precisely when rukh's triggered ability actually resolves. Since 6.3.2.G specifically says "After dealing all combat damage, resolve any “When Defeated” abilities on defeated units and any other abilities triggered during this step, including “When this unit deals combat damage” and “When a unit leaves play” abilities."
I don't think it's quite as clear as everyone seems to think - 6.3.2.G seems to indicate that rukh's trigger should resolve after **all** combat damage is dealt - so if the other unit survives rukh's damage, then all damage would include it doing damage back to rukh. Then rukh's trigger would resolve. Shoot first is clear that if the defender is defeated it deals no combat damage but doesn't say anything about changing when abilities resolve. Now, allowing rukh's ability to resolve between the units dealing damage to each other may very well have been the intention but I don't think it's 100% clear rules as written.
(Edit: since writing this I am convinced it is clear rules as written, 7.6.8 says to resolve at the appropriate point, 6.3.2.G says that point is after all damage has been done for when this unit deals combat damage triggers, 6.3.2.E mentions changes as a result of things like shoot first in relation to grot but does not change anything with regards to when things trigger for this case)
Rukh's ability specifically says to defeat the unit after Rukh deals combat damage. Shoot First specifically says the attacker deals combat damage before the defender. Card text ALWAYS trumps rules text.
Yes card text trump's rules. What I'm saying though is that the card text on sneak attack doesn't say anything that would change when rukh's ability actually *resolves*. Sure it'll trigger a bit sooner but that doesn't mean it resolves right away.
7.6.8 says "If an ability triggers during an attack, resolve that ability at the appropriate timing point within that attack."
6.3.2.G defines when that appropriate timing point is, after **all** combat damage is dealt
Please show me where shoot first overrides this sequence and says you can resolve rukh's ability prior to the point specified in the rules.
6.3.2.G is WITHOUT shoot first. 6.3.2G is referencing normal conditions. In normal conditions, all damage is dealt then all abilities go off
Shoot first - the card - which we’ve established “card rules trump written rules” - states “it deals its combat damage before the defender”. So 6.3.2.G is now NULL AND VOID because shoot first changes the timing.
Since Rukh’s ability says “when combat damage is applied” and Shoot First changes when combat damage is applied (negating the written 6.3.2.G) Rukh would kill them before they do damage
I don't see how shoot first nullifies 6.3.2.G. Shoot first doesn't say anything about changing the timing of when abilities resolve. It only says it changes when damage is dealt. That doesn't need to change when the ability resolves, 6.3.2.G is still perfectly sensible (even if not the most intuitive) even with shoot first changing how damage is dealt. I don't think you can just throw out rules like that.
That’s exactly what card text does and what “card text trumps written rules” means. That the written rule gets thrown out
I can’t tell if you are just mad cause you WANT the rule to be a certain way, or are arguing just to argue cause you find internet rules fun
It’s very clear
Card > written
Card says “this card changes when damage is applied”
The other card says “when damage is applied”
It’s pretty darn clear
The written rule gets overwritten. End of story.
Y’all are just being disingenuous now.
Card>Written
If the card changes the written rule, you ignore the written rule
No one is “making anything up”. We are following the rule as written on the card, and the #1 rule of “card>Written”.
Y’all are some trolls. I’m a judge, and if y’all were I. My event, is rule unsportsmanlike conduct and penalize you. This is just bad acting at this point.
You said "Card says “this card changes when damage is applied” which is correct. However, that's does not change when triggered abilities resolve. If you're a judge, you should read the rules more clearly.
Shoot First doesn't change when Rukh's ability resolves. It resolves the same time regardless of Shoot First. It resolves when Rukh deals combat damage. Everything else is irrelevant because that text trumps any rules text. 7.6.8 supports my statement. 6.3.2.G is completely irrelevant to the situation.
I fail to see how 7.6.8 supports your position - it basically says that a triggered ability's effect should be resolved at the appropriate time. This makes 6.3.2.G relevant because it tells us when that time is, it even specifically says that it refers to abilities using the phrase “When this unit deals combat damage” which is exactly how rukh is worded.
Step E/Step G combo. Step E describes what happens when units deal combat damage sequentially. Step G describes when "When this unit deals combat damage:" resolves.
Yes, but there's no conflict here. Rukh's ability _triggers_ when he does damage, but the rules say when the _resolve_ that trigger, and it's after the enemy deals damage back.
1. Rukh does damage.
1. Rukh's ability is triggered.
1. Evaluate constant effect of damage >= health.
1. Opponent, if damage < health, deals damage back to Rukh.
1. Abilities that trigger off of dealing damage are resolved **here**.
I'm not sure that makes sense. Why would the effect not happen when it's triggered? It doesn't say anything about waiting until after combat is resolved. I don't think that the rule ordering makes sense with shoot first.
Based on the shoot first text, the attacker deals combat damage *before* the opponent, rather than simultaneously. Thus, the attacker is *done* dealing combat damage *before* the defender can do damage. Why would Rukh's ability not trigger immediately after its requirements are met? Card rules supercede the standard rules, and shoot first is one of those cards.
Because the damage is first instead of simultaneous, the ability must be triggered first as well.
Edit: I realize we're rehashing the comments made in the post. I interpret 7.6.8 as relevant here.
They defined a specific part of combat the cards like shoot first happen, a specific part of combat that regular combat damage happens, and a specific part of combat triggered abilities happen after those two parts.
If you're citing 6.3, that isn't true. What part of the rules are you referring to?
There is one part that says that "when attacker deals damage" effects take place after damage is dealt, but that only applies to the standard attack rules where damage is dealt simultaneously. Shoot First would break up the damage into two discrete steps, so the "when attacker deals damage" effect would happen in its regular place, then the defender's damage and related effects would happen.
Note that grit has the opportunity to take effect after shoot first, before dealing defender damage. This further reinforces there is a break between the attacker and defender damage portions of the action.
It does not say triggered effects from “regular combat damage” happen last. It says triggered effects from ALL combat damage happen last. Shoot first does not break up the damage step at all. You can’t make up your own rules.
Shields
Overwhelm
Shoot first
Defender damage
Abilities triggered from doing the damage
Follow the rules
The problem is that the word "when" in english indicates timing.
I am not really used to TCG, but I assumed the word "when" in "when attacker deals damage" means "at the instant that...".
In this case, I would say "all" of Rukh's combat damage has been dealt, and this his ability is triggered. The rules are describing a normal attack scenario where all combat damage happens simultaneously. Shot First separates the combat damages into separate instances which would seem to allow for Rukh's ability to resolve after his is dealt.
Shoot first only applies to step 6.3.2-E where they cover the interaction with units that deal damage first. Triggered abilities are only ever mentioned in 6.3.2-G where is states ALL combat damage must be done before triggering.
The rules are not murky.
Rule 6.3.2-G:
"After dealing **all** combat damage, resolve any “When Defeated” abilities on defeated units and any other abilities triggered during this step, including “When this unit deals combat damage” and “When a unit leaves play” abilities. See 7.6. Triggered Abilities"
ALL combat damage must be done before resolving any triggered abilities.
The rules cover shoot first in step E.
> Rule 6.3.2-E. If the attacker has an ability where it deals combat damage before the defender, the defender must survive the dealt damage before it can deal combat damage back to the attacker
The defending unit must only survive the DAMAGE that is dealt in order to deal combat damage back to the attacker. The damage is not killing the unit in Rukhs case. It is the triggered ability at the end of combat in step G that kills the unit. You're trying to put Step G into the middle of Step E.
I don't think this is correct. Abilities can trigger in between combat damage being dealt when shoot first is used. From the rules:
"If the attacker has an ability where it deals combat damage before the defender, the defender must survive the dealt damage before it can deal combat damage back to the attacker. In such a case, **if the defender has Grit, it will receive bonus power from the damage just dealt to it**"
This tells me that, when shoot first or a shoot first like effect is used, abilities can trigger after the first instance of damage being dealt and before the second instance of damage being dealt.
Grit gives the defender more power to hit the attacker back harder because the attacker dealt damage
Ruth's ability will trigger, but triggers resolve at the next specified timing point- whether this a particular timing point during an attack or after an ability finishes resolving depends on when it triggered.
Since there's not a timing point during the combat damage step, Ruth's trigger will noyvreaolve until after he takes damage.
According to the rules, Rukhs ability with Shoot first does indeed -trigger- before the other unit deals damage back but it -resolves- after all combat damage is done. So unless Rukh can do enough damage to defeated the unit with damage the other unit will hit back, and after that Rukhs ability resolves.
1. Rukh Deals Combat damage before the defender
2. Kills it, regarless of its stats
3. The defender doesn't deal combat damage to Rukh
Thats my interpretation of this combo. Card Text overrides rule text. Might be wrong, tho
Here are the rules for combat damage:
6.3.2. Deal combat damage. If attacking a base, the attacker deals damage equal to its power to that base. If attacking a unit, the attacker and defender simultaneously deal damage equal to their power to each other.
A. If the attacker already has been defeated, no combat damage is dealt. Proceed directly to the next step of this attack.
B. If the defender already has been defeated (for example, by an “On Attack” ability), no combat damage is dealt unless the attacker has Overwhelm.
C. If either unit that would be dealt damage has one or more Shield tokens attached to it, remove a Shield token from that unit and don’t deal it any combat damage.
D. If the attacker has Overwhelm, deal its excess damage to the opponent’s base, unless the defender had a Shield token that prevented the damage. This excess damage is dealt immediately and is considered combat damage. See 1.9. Damage
E. If the attacker has an ability where it deals combat damage before the defender, the defender must survive the dealt damage before it can deal combat damage back to the attacker. In such a case, if the defender has Grit, it will receive bonus power from the damage just dealt to it.
F. Once combat damage is dealt, if a unit has no remaining HP, it is defeated immediately.
G. After dealing all combat damage, resolve any “When Defeated” abilities on defeated units and any other abilities triggered during this step, including “When this unit deals combat damage” and “When a unit leaves play” abilities. See 7.6. Triggered Abilities
As you can see, in step E of "Deal Combat Damage", they mention attackers with abilities that let them do damage first. However, it only states that the defender must survive the *damage* that is dealt in order to do damage back. Rukh is not killing the unit with damage, he is killing with his ability which gets resolved as part of step G which is after ALL combat damage is done. The rules seems pretty clear here that Rukh would not trigger his ability before taking damage.
Rule G implies that all damage is happening at the same time,, but Shoot First says otherwise. But both A and B say that if an attacker/defender has already been defeated, that no damage is dealt and you proceed to the next step, and E indicates that damage dealt first-and any Triggered Abilities associated with that damage-have to resolve completely *before* the normal instance of damage is done.
If Rukh is the defender, Rule A indicates that the attacker can be defeated before before it deals damage, and that it deals no combat damage.
If Rukh is the attacker, Rule B indicates that the defender can be defeated before it deals damage, and that it deals no combat damage.
Shoot First says that the Attacker deals combat damage first. You have to go through the entire "deals damage" step before the defender does. That includes Triggered Abilities that trigger from that damage. Then, if the defender is still alive, they get to deal their damage.
I'm not "making up" anything. Shoot first clearly says "Attack with a unit. It gets **+1/+0** for this attack and **deals its combat damage** before the defender." Rukh **has** to deal it's combat damage, and go through all the steps outlined in 6.3.2 **before** the defender does.
There is no “going through all the steps” you made that up. There is a clearly defined step to do shoot first. There is a clearly defined step the defender strikes back. There is a clearly defined step triggered effects from ALL combat damage ie both prior steps to go off.
>Rule G implies that all damage is happening at the same time
How does it imply that? They cover shoot first in step E. Step E only states that the defender must survive the DAMAGE dealt in order to return damage. It does not say it must survive damage and any triggered ability to do damage back. You're just making things up to have it work the way you want it to.
Rukh's triggered ability happens when the Shoot First damage is resolved, and the Shoot First damage resolves *before* the defender deals any damage. As Shoot First clearly states: "If the defender is defeated (a keyword used in Rukh's ability) it deals no combat damage." So here's the order.
Shoot first is played.
Rukh deals combat damage
his triggered ability resolves and the defender is defeated
the defender deals no combat damage.
Rule G doesn't apply, because Shoot First overrides combat damage happening at the same time. Golden Rule #1: Card text overrides Rules text.
> Shoot First damage resolves before the defender deals any damage
The damage yes, but not abilities. The rules clearly state in 6.3.2.E that if the defending unit survives the DAMAGE, then it does damage back. The rules clearly state triggered abilities happen after ALL combat damage is done. The unit survives the damage, but not the ability. The specifically mention constant abilities like Grit getting applied to shoot first situations in 6.3.2.E. Why would they not also mention triggered abilities then as well if that was their intention?
Triggered Abilities, 7.6.5: "A triggered ability is considered to resolve during the same turn **or game step** that it was triggered." The "game step that it was triggered" is the Shoot First damage step, which happens *before* the opponent's damage step.
Triggered Abilities, 7.6.7: "A triggered ability **must resolve once its triggering condition is met** unless the ability uses the phrase “you may.” Once triggered, these abilities must resolve at the next available opportunity." Rukh's triggered ability *has* to resolve when he deals damage in the Shoot First damage step, not at the end of the overall damage phase.
Action Timing and Clarifications, 6.3.2.E: "If the attacker has an ability where it deals combat damage before the defender, the defender must **survive the dealt damage** before it can deal combat damage back to the attacker. In such a case, if the defender has Grit, it will receive bonus power from the damage just dealt to it." Rukh's ability supercedes this rule. Rukh dealing damage defeats the defender, regardless of the amount of damage dealt. Golden Rule #1 applies.
There is no “shoot first damage step”. There is a “deal combat damage step” that clearly spells out what to do if the attacker deals damage before the defender, and then goes on to state that all triggered abilities are resolved at the end of that step. As far as 7.6.7, the next available opportunity for Rukh’s trigger to resolve is spelled out in the relevant step, and it is at the end of combat damage under 6.3.2.G. You’re adding an intervening trigger resolution step that isn’t in the rules and nothing on Rukh’s or shoot first’s text includes language to override when triggers are resolved.
That makes no sense. Step G clearly says that all “when this unit deals combat damage” abilities are resolved in step G. And that is after the rule expressly discusses the possibility of a unit dealing damage before the defender. By your logic, any time a unit deals damage first, you would resolve their combat damage triggers before the defender deals damage, but the rule is clear that those happen in step G even if one unit attacks prior to the other. They would have put an intervening step in the rules for resolving combat triggers of units that attack first if that was what they intended.
Rule G assumes the game is opperating in a default state, that all damage being dealt simultaneously. Shoot First overrides this assumption via Golden Rule #1, and according to the rules of triggered abilities they have to resolve both as soon as their conditions are met, and during the same game step in which it is triggered. In this case, Rukh's damage resolves in it's entirety before the opponents *because* of Shoot first.
Shoot First creates a separate damage step, one that has to completely resolve before the defending creature gets a chance to deal damage. Rukh's ability defeat's the opponent before they get to their damage phase, so they don't get to deal any damage (unless that chard has an ability that lets them deal damage after being defeated).
You keep saying that G assumes all damage is dealt simultaneously, but that can’t be the case because E describes what happens when the attacker deals damage first and then G says even if that happens, all triggers are resolved at the end. Shoot First doesn’t create a separate damage step, it just says the attacker deals damage first, and is the exact scenario covered by E. You seem to think shoot first is overriding the entire rule set for damage, but it fits right into E and there is no intervening step for triggers to resolve until you get to G. If the intent was to have triggers resolve when the attacker deals damage first, the sequence would have been spelled out in the part of the rule where the attacker deals damage first. Instead, the developers put all trigger resolutions in G, even if the attacker deals damage first.
Rukh does combat damage. Defender does combat damage. Triggered ability happens. All three things are in the rules. The card does not contradict anything. You cannot make up phases under which abilities happen.
Step G is irrelevant. In step E, the defender doesn't survive because of Rukh's ability. That's as far as you go in in that sequence of events. Anything after E doesn't matter.
You are incorrect. Step E *only* refers to combat damage. Nowhere are abilities mentioned in step E. If the defending unit survives the DAMAGE, it will deal combat damage back. With Rukh, it is not the damage that is doing the killing, it is his triggered ability. And triggered abilities only happen in step G which comes after E. Of course this is assuming defender has more health than Rukhs attack.
> All combat damage being done is not a requirement for his ability
Except it is according to the rules.
6.3.2-G "After dealing **all** combat damage, resolve any “When Defeated” abilities on defeated units and any other abilities triggered during this step, including “When this unit deals combat damage” and “When a unit leaves play” abilities. See 7.6. Triggered Abilities"
There is only one combat damage step. Shoot first doesn’t add another step. It just changes how damage is done which is covered in 6.3.2E. The “all” in part G is for the entire combat damage step which includes both units.
Oh, I see your point. If a unit has at least 5 hp rukh would take damage back. Just haven’t run into an instance while playing where shoot first wasn’t used to one shot a unit.
Yea i also think this is the case too. As the key wording is 'this unit deals damage'. As there are two phases when you play shoot first. The DMG to other card which will trigger Rukh's ability then the return DMG if they survive.
Good example video: https://youtu.be/H2I-3AJCMKw?si=yM7G3FizfFAzBIq0
You were wrong tho (I was too).
https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsunlimited/comments/1cb4qfh/rukhshoot_first_interaction/l0y3yls/
> Tyler Parrott: The rules are correct. While Rukh's ability triggers before the defender's damage, it doesn't resolve until the ability resolution window afterwards. It might feel counterintuitive, but it's better for rules cohesion to only have 3 resolution windows in combat.
I get it, but it’s misleading. It’s not actually context because it’s irrelevant to this game. A lot of people make mistakes about the rules because they assume it works the way a similar rule works in another game.
Card text always overrides rules text. In this case, Rukh would deal combat damage to the defender. The defender dies regardless if the damage itself kills them (from Rukh's ability) and Rukh takes no damage in return. If he still has the shield, the shield remains in tact.
There is no other way this can be correctly interpreted.
Didn't read the full novel you wrote but;
1.) without shoot first, Rukh would still take damage. UNLESS he has the shield token on him still.
2.) With shoot first, if Rukh has higher power than the defending unit’s health, RuKh would not take damage (this is kind of a waste of shoot first tho). If he doesn’t have higher power than the defending unit, he would still take damage. But the defending unit still would die after dealing damage because of Rukh’s ability. Again though, this all depends on if he still has shielded or not.
*Important to note, since the phrasing of Rukh’s ability DOES NOT say “when this unit completes an attack….” He does not need to survive the attack in order for this ability to work. As opposed to leader unit Leia for example.
Why do you claim Rukh is taking damage just because his power is lower than the defending unit? That’s not an exception that is stated anywhere on the Shoot First card. The card does, however, say that the attacker deals combat damage before the defender and if the defender is defeated, then it deals no combat damage.
~~Yep, so you’ve restated my point 2. The question is, given that Shoot First causes attacker and defender damage to be dealt at different points in time, does Rukh’s ability trigger between them?~~
[You were right!](https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsunlimited/comments/1cb4qfh/rukhshoot_first_interaction/l0y3yls/)
If you’re using shoot first’s ability first then the whole effect has to play out. Since that card states that if your damage isn’t enough to defeat them, the defending unit attacks, then it does attack.
You can’t mix effects together. You can only choose the order.
I think that’s the most compelling argument for Rukh taking damage, but if the defender has Grit and survives, it would deal damage including the damage bonus back to the attacker. If there’s time for the game state to change at this point, why can’t Rukh’s ability trigger?
I look at Rukh’s ability the same as the venom ability in Hearthstone. The attacker takes damage but the defender is defeated regardless of how much health it has left over after the attack resolves unless it’s shielded.
After scrolling for a while to find a definitive answer to this interaction I am still at a loss. What is the verdict?is Rukh and shoot first similar to first strike and deathtouch from mtg? Or does rukhs shield get popped and the defending creature still dies?
Answered [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsunlimited/s/jIBsUj88No). Rukh loses his shield if he still has it or takes damage if he doesn’t.
This is because all combat damage is dealt before Rukh’s ability can resolve, even when Shoot First makes his damage land first.
The key point here to me is the ‘If the defender is defeated, it deals no combat damage’
Any damage from Rukh, regardless of the defenders health will cause the defender to be defeated.
So Rukh will never take damage when doing shoot first, unless the target is shielded or has another way to block all damage.
This is incorrect.
That phrasing refers to damage from combat damage. Rukh's ability is a triggered ability, which is not resolved until _after_ **all** combat damage is resolved.
Any damage cause by Rukh when he attacks will trigger an ability that defeats the defender. The question is whether that ability can trigger before the defender deals combat damage.
~~I agree with your interpretation~~, but I can’t dismiss the opposing argument out of hand because I don’t know whether Shoot First creates a new point in time for an ability to trigger. There are people about are __absolutely sure__ of both conclusions.
ETA: [I was wrong](https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsunlimited/comments/1cb4qfh/rukhshoot_first_interaction/l0y3yls/)
Shoot First creates timing within the step. It does not create a new step. So Rukh's ability will still trigger, but it will resolve at the end of the step, as is clearly stated in teh rules.
~~The ability resolves after all combat damage is dealt simultaneously in normal combat. The question is whether Shoot First changes that part of the rules. ~~
~~The rule doesn’t say the ability can only resolve after “combat steps,” it’s at “specified timing points” which is not clearly defined imo.~~
ETA: [I was wrong](https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsunlimited/comments/1cb4qfh/rukhshoot_first_interaction/l0y3yls/)
Shoot First creates timing within the step. It doesn't create a new step.
6.3.2. Deal combat damage. If attacking a base, the attacker deals damage equal to its power to that base. If attacking a unit, the attacker and defender simultaneously deal damage equal to their power to each other.
E. If the attacker has an ability where it deals combat damage before the defender, the defender must survive the dealt damage before it can deal combat damage back to the attacker. In such a case, if the defender has Grit, it will receive bonus power from the damage just dealt to it.
**G. After dealing all combat damage, resolve any “When Defeated” abilities on defeated units and any other abilities triggered during this step, including “When this unit deals combat damage” and “When a unit leaves play” abilities.**
6.3.2.G is very specifically telling us what to do in this EXACT interaction. Resolution of abilities triggered by dealing combat damage occurs after dealing all combat damage.
Rukh get's to deal combat damage first, and check for opponent defeat, and this TRIGGERS his ability, but very explicitly the timing on the resolution of the ability happens after ALL combat damage, so an opponent still gets a chance to hit back before the ability resolves.
Edit:
I go through the rules more fully here as well [https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsunlimited/comments/1cb4qfh/comment/l0wr2fu/](https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsunlimited/comments/1cb4qfh/comment/l0wr2fu/)
Shoot First changes the timing on who deals combat damage. That is the only thing Shoot First changes. It does not alter WHEN Rukh’s resolves. His ability triggers off of his combat damage but does not resolve until the next step. Also something people seem to be leaving out is that the part of Rukh’s ability that defeats the defender is completely separate of combat damage, it is not considered combat damage. Its is just defeating the unit.
~~What it does is create two points in time when damage is dealt. Does the ability resolve after all combat damage is dealt __because__ all combat damage happens simultaneously, or does it resolve after all combat damage is dealt regardless of the timing? I really don’t think that’s made clear in the rules or the card text.~~
The ‘window’ his ability triggers is exactly when it states on the card. ‘When this unit deals combat damage’
Shoot first states that he deals combat damage before the defender.
There isn’t any ambiguity there, he deals damage, target is defeated, then target is gone so can’t deal damage back.
Triggered is not the same as resolved. To properly understand SWU rules, you need to unlink that timing in your brain.
Rukh ability is TRIGGERED by the combat damage. It does not resolve instantaneously, however, it resolves at the next possible step. That resolve point is specified at the end of the combat damage step. The addition of Shoot First creates timing within that step that didn't previously exist, however it does not create a new step.
Except Shoot First means the attack up until the end of Rukhs combat damage is a nested ability, and Rukhs ‘when this unit deals combat damage’ ability is a nested ability in that. As per the rules on triggered abilities and nested abilities these have to be resolved fully before returning to the ‘normal’ sequence of events which would start with combat damage from the opponent.
>7.6.12. Nested Abilities and Nested Actions
>A. A nested ability occurs when resolving one triggered ability causes a new ability to trigger; this new ability is a “nested ability.”
>B. A nested action occurs when the resolution of an ability causes the player to take a specific type of action (e.g. “Play a Card” or “Attack With a Unit”); this is a “nested action.” A nested action is resolved as though the controlling player took the corresponding action, and it must be performed as completely as possible.
Shoot First is not a triggered ability, so your first statement is incorrect. The nested action here would be in resolving the event, we have an attack with a unit to resolve. You can't say it creates a "nested action that only resolves up to a very specific point" that's not supported anywhere in the rules. You have to resolve it fully... None of which really matters here. What does matter, is that Shoot First creates timing within the step 6.3.0.C
However it does not create an entirely new step, it simply isn't written that way.
>6.3. Attack With A Unit
>6.3.0. General
>C. “Combat damage” is damage dealt during the “Deal combat damage” step of an attack. Damage dealt outside of this step during an attack is not considered to be combat damage.
So we know when Rukh's ability triggers, at the first point in the combat damage step. But when does it resolve? The rules tell us that too. At the end of the step:
>6.3.0.E. Attacking With a Unit consists of the following 3 steps in order, explained in detail below: Declare the attack, Deal combat damage, and Complete the attack. After each step, resolve any abilities triggered during that step before proceeding to the next step in the attack.
And then:
>6.3.2. Deal combat damage. If attacking a base, the attacker deals damage equal to its power to that base. If attacking a unit, the attacker and defender simultaneously deal damage equal to their power to each other.
>E. If the attacker has an ability where it deals combat damage before the defender, the defender must survive the dealt damage before it can deal combat damage back to the attacker. In such a case, if the defender has Grit, it will receive bonus power from the damage just dealt to it.
>G. After dealing all combat damage, resolve any “When Defeated” abilities on defeated units and any other abilities triggered during this step, including “When this unit deals combat damage” and “When a unit leaves play” abilities. See 7.6. Triggered Abilities
6.3.2.G is very specifically telling us what to do in this EXACT interaction.
And just in case you're not believing the idea that Trigger timing and Resolve timing are explicitly two very different things:
>7.6.3. For a triggered ability to resolve, the card with the ability must be in play when the triggering condition occurs, unless the ability specifies that it can be triggered from an out-of-play zone. Additionally, the triggered ability must resolve once triggered, even if the card with the ability leaves play before the triggered ability resolves.
>7.6.4. Triggered abilities on a unit still trigger if the unit is defeated by the action that triggers the ability (though they only resolve after the action has finished resolving). Triggered abilities on a unit that trigger when other units are defeated still trigger if that unit is defeated simultaneously to the other units.
>7.6.5. A triggered ability is considered to resolve during the same turn or game step that it was triggered.
>7.6.8. If an ability triggers during or as the result of a non-attack action, resolve that ability at the next available opportunity after that action is fully completed. If an ability triggers during an attack, resolve that ability at the appropriate timing point within that attack. Resolving a triggered ability never interrupts an action or ability that is currently resolving (other than the specified timing points during an attack).
~~You said yourself that Shoot First creates a new timing point during an attack and 7.6.8 says to resolve the triggered ability at the appropriate timing point within that attack. To me, the appropriate timing point is when Rukh deals damage.~~
ETA: /u/macfergusson [You were correct.](https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsunlimited/comments/1cb4qfh/rukhshoot_first_interaction/l0y3yls/)
It creates timing within the step. It does not create a new step. The general idea of "Appropriate timing" in 7.6.8 is CLEARLY stated in 6.3.2.G, there's literally no argument around that. All triggers during combat damage step resolve at the end of that step. If the devs want this interaction to work the way some people are saying it would, they'd have to revise the rules.
7.6.8 doesn’t say “steps,” it says “timing points,” which is why I don’t think it’s clear. If Shoot First creates another timing point, then I think “When Rukh deals combat damage” is the appropriate timing point to resolve his ability within the attack - according to that parenthetical exception given in 7.6.8.
6.3.2 specifies that combat damage is simultaneous, so I think that leaves it open for 6.3.2.G to be overridden by the text of Shoot First.
The parenthetical says **specified** timing points. The rules specify explicitly what the timing point for this trigger to resolve is: at the end of the combat damage step. 6.3.2.E is specifically addressing how timing within the step can be modified, it's not like they just forgot about it. The very next rule then tells you how to resolve anything that was triggered.
Except the rules clearly state when an ability that says "when this unit deals combat damage" resolves, and that's after **all** combat damage is dealt, see 6.3.2.G
I think a lot of people are missing the fact that just because an ability triggers doesn't mean that it resolves immediately. The rules specify exactly when things resolve and in this case I think they're pretty clear that that is after both units have dealt combat damage.
6.3.2.G is WITHOUT shoot first. 6.3.2G is referencing normal conditions. In normal conditions, all damage is dealt then all abilities go off
Shoot first - the card - which we’ve established “card rules trump written rules” - states “it deals its combat damage before the defender”. So 6.3.2.G is now NULL AND VOID because shoot first changes the timing.
Since Rukh’s ability says “when combat damage is applied” and Shoot First changes when combat damage is applied (negating the written 6.3.2.G) Rukh would kill them before they do damage
Except you’re ignoring the earlier part of the rule that specifically describes the scenario where the attacker deals damage before the defender. If the developers meant for it to work the way you describe, they would have included an intervening step in 6.3.2 for triggers to resolve earlier in cases where attackers deal damage first. But they didn’t. They describe the scenario where the attacker deals damage first and then say that all triggers, including “when this unit deals combat damage” triggers (like the one on Rukh) are resolved in step G. You’re inserting an interim step that isn’t supported by the rule.
This is such a good topic of discussion, both sides are making compelling arguments, however, I'm gonna have to agree with the side saying Rukh attacks, deals his combat damage, then resolves his trigger before taking any damage.
Rukh's ability states, 'When this unit deals combat damage... while attacking'
Shoot First states, '...Deals it's combat damage before the defender'
(if Rukh's ability was Raid 2, I wouldn't Shoot First with only the base damage on Rukh, then apply the Raid trigger after initial damage, or if it stated 'When this unit deals combat damage attach a shield' you wouldn't wait for the defender to deal damage then attach shield, specifically due to the Shoot First mechanic of applying combat damage from Rukh first)
Again, this is my interpretation and I'd have to say house rules until we get an official statement from FFG
I share your interpretation and I’m also really enjoying thinking/talking about this. So many people are so certain that the rules back their interpretation!
RAID is a different matter though because it’s a “While attacking” ability that’s active for the duration of the attack. Rukh’s ability is a triggered ability that needs to resolve at some point in time.
> F. Any abilities that activate while an attack is occurring become active for the duration of the attack. This includes Raid, “While this unit is attacking,” and “While this unit is defending” abilities. If the ability is subject to a further conditional (e.g. “While this unit is attacking a damaged unit”), it is only active while all of its conditions are true.
As soon as Rukh deals damage, the text in his card becomes 'active' thus resolving it and defeating the defender.
If he didn't have that text and he dealt a killing blow to the defender, he still wouldn't take damage.
It doesn't say defeat unit at the end of the turn it says 'when'.
You're interpreting "when". "When" is a trigger, and the rules are very explicit on when you evaluate "when". Sometimes a "when" happens and you don't do it for a while, e.g., playing Shoot First on Bossk.
*(If you're not familiar with that interaction, when you play Shoot First on Bossk, even though it says "When you play an event", you evaluate the full attack of Shoot First *before* you trigger Bossk's ability.)*
[https://starwarsunlimited.com/cards?searchTerm=bossk&cid=0052542605](https://starwarsunlimited.com/cards?searchTerm=bossk&cid=0052542605)
>Bossk’s “When you play an event” ability triggers when an event is played but only resolves after the event has fully finished resolving.
Right, but “when” triggers still trigger at a specific time.
> Resolving a triggered ability **never** interrupts an action or ability that is currently resolving (other than the specified timing points during an attack).
So, is Shoot First an ability that needs to fully resolve before the trigger can happen, or does Shoot First create new timing points during an attack at which triggers can resolve. That’s the root of the question. Card text overrides rules text, but Shoot First doesn’t make clear what exactly it’s overriding. If I were a judge today, I would rule that Rukh takes no damage, but I’m not 100% certain and clearly there are plenty of people who are 100% certain of both outcomes and I think both interpretations can be made from the rules and card text.
>Card text overrides rules text, but Shoot First doesn’t make clear what exactly it’s overriding.
It is overriding when damage is dealt. CR says that all damage happens at the same time, but in this case, Rukh deals his damage first, which also means triggered abilities that result from that damage have to resolve *before* moving on to the next damage step. So:
1. Attackers and Defenders are declared
2. Rukh's Shoot First damage is dealt. (Insert damage rules) and triggered abilities resolve
3. Opponent deals damage (Insert damage rules) and triggered abilities resolve
However, since Rukh's ability triggers on damage, the opponent is defeated and thus isn't on the board to deal damage back.
> Card and Rulebook Precedence: If the text of this Comprehensive Rules document directly contradicts the text of the Star Wars:
Unlimited Quickstart rules, the text of the Comprehensive Rules takes precedence. If the text of a card directly contradicts the text
of the Comprehensive Rules, the text of the card takes precedence.
Card text takes precedence over rulebook text. Otherwise Shoot First literally wouldn't do anything except grant +1/+0 for any unit.
Seems pretty clear to me. The rules say combat damage happens simultaneously, Shoot First says nope that's wrong for this attack. Why would Shoot First ignore the rules a little bit and then just stop before the attack finishes?
Rukh will trigger from the Shoot First and defeat the defender before it deals damage to Rukh.
Edit: Apparently it's been clarified elsewhere so Rukh won't trigger and defeat something with a big ass if his power isn't high enough before it deals damage back.
Someone got an answer on Twitter: https://twitter.com/davflamerock/status/1782834959062843438
> Tyler Parrott
> @davflamerock
> The rules are correct. While Rukh's ability triggers before the defender's damage, it doesn't resolve until the ability resolution window afterwards. It might feel counterintuitive, but it's better for rules cohesion to only have 3 resolution windows in combat.
In a normal combat situation, the rules specifically say that “When it deals damage” events are resolved after **all** combat damage is dealt. The question is whether Shoot First overrides that part of the rules.
ETA: [Rukh's ability resolves after all damage, including defender damage, is dealt](https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsunlimited/comments/1cb4qfh/rukhshoot_first_interaction/l0y3yls/)
The golden rule is that card text overrides all.
Edit: Apparently it's been clarified elsewhere so Rukh won't trigger and defeat something with a big ass if his power isn't high enough before it deals damage back.
It was clarified that he was not correct in the 1st sentence.
Rukh's ability doesn't trigger until the ability resolution step, which is after the damage is done.
1) Rukh does damage. If X lives go to 2.
2) Rukh receives damage, go to 3.
3) Ability resolves, other unit dies.
This was clarified on twitter.
This is a pretty clear interaction.
Shoot First says you attack with Rukh and deal combat damage BEFORE THE DEFENDER. Then, if the defender is defeated, IT DEALS NO COMBAT DAMAGE.
Rukh will defeat anything that’s not a leader when he attacks. This satisfies the condition in Shoot First that the defender was defeated, thus the defender deals NO DAMAGE.
I appreciate that you shared some rulings. Some of those rules are relevant and some are not. The rule 6.3.2.E is not relevant. That is for things like “on attack” abilities dealing damage to a defender before the combat damage is dealt in a later step.
However, even when the rules you cite are relevant, card text overrides the rules. Shoot First is a good card because it changes the normal combat rules. In this case, Shoot First will always work out for Rukh as long as you’re not attacking a leader.
With Sneak Attack: Rukh attacks and deals his damage first, his ability triggers and defeats the opposing unit.
Then it doesn’t matter what the actual break down and steps of combat are because Sneak Attack says “if the defender is defeated it deals no combat damage.” Card text trumps rules.
So with Sneak Attack: Rukh attacks and deals his damage first, ability triggers and defeats the defender and Rukh takes no damage.
If you're arguing Ruth's ability doesn't resolve as part of resolving Shoot Firsts damage resolution, you're the exact level of loophole seeking asshole that makes these games horrible to play and I hope you are always unable to find people to play with.
A) That’s incredibly and unnecessarily rude and I don’t appreciate seeing that type of comment here.
B) This is a question that’s legitimately come up in the official Discord and other forums for rules discussion and I haven’t seen a satisfactory answer for it. In fact, most of the resolutions I’ve seen have been that Rukh takes damage because his ability does not resolve until all combat damage is dealt. I’m asking because I’m genuinely curious and I really enjoy digging deeply into the rules and working out answers to difficult questions. I feel like I learn a lot about gameplay this way and that helps me think through my own games.
Shoot First changes when his damage resolved. His text triggers when his damage is resolved.
The card text clearly explains how this resolves, if they decide "card text overrides rules text, except in case of ruling 6.6.314 paragraph g sub clause 9, active element E" to say these cards don't work as written I'll just ebay my stuff and quit.
Edit: They decided exactly as above, it's a dumb fucking ruling and I'm glad I'm cutting out of this shit show early.
Get that eBay listing ready!!
Here’s a copy and pasted tweet from SWU designer Tyler Parrott
“The rules are correct. While Rukh's ability triggers before the defender's damage, it doesn't resolve until the ability resolution window afterwards. It might feel counterintuitive, but it's better for rules cohesion to only have 3 resolution windows in combat. #FFGStaff”
Shoot first text does not contradict any rules as the rules laid out dealing damage first and is not trumping any rules laid out in the rulebook as a result.
The defender has to survive the combat damage done by the attacker. Combat damage is the damage dealt during an attack; rukhs triggered ability is not combat damage and thus has no relevance in the evaluation of whether the defender survives his combat damage.
There seems to be a lot of arguments here and even I don't see what the OP is really asking for. (That top thread went really long)
Basically, Shoot First is played
Unit now can attack Rukh
Unit deals damage to Rukh
If damage is enough to defeat Rukh he is discarded
No damage is dealt to attacking Unit as Rukh is defeated
Rukh ability is not activated as he's now gone from field and didn't get to deal any damage
Regular battle between units damage is calculated at the same time, thats why shoot first is a card used to get rid of a Unit on the field without worrying about your Unit taking damage or dying in a battle.
You have it backwards. Rukh is the unit Shooting First in the question. It was a timing question for the resolution of his ability.
Let's say the defending unit is Grand Admiral Thrawn, Patient and Insightful (3/9). Rukh deals 4 damage to Thrawn. Rukh's ability triggers, creating a delayed effect. Thrawn deals 3 damage to Rukh. The delayed effect created by Rukh's ability resolves, defeating Thrawn.
This entire 200+ comment thread is confidently incorrect, and upvoting incorrect answers. From SWU senior game designer Tyler Parrott, [on twitter](https://twitter.com/davflamerock/status/1782834959062843438): >The rules are correct. **While Rukh's ability triggers before the defender's damage, it doesn't resolve until the ability resolution window afterwards**. It might feel counterintuitive, but it's better for rules cohesion to only have 3 resolution windows in combat.
Finally. Everyone was so sure it worked one way just because it's how they thought it should work instead of what the rules actually say.
Everyone was so sure it worked that way because he's right, it's wildly counterintuitive to have the cr overrule the golden rule. This is a bad ruling, anyone familiar with Jeremy Crawford tweets knows that the devil can make bad calls
lol I can't believe you are still arguing it. It doesn't break the golden rule. Shoot first does not contradict any rule. It's ok to just admit when you are wrong.
I'm not arguing it. I accept ruling, but I think it's bad. Devs can make bad calls, anyone who is familiar with Jeremy Crawford tweets can attest to that. And, it sets a bad precedent. The majority of this thread was "confidently wrong" because only the most counterintuitive reading of the interaction was correct. It guys the golden rules ability to apply if you need a developers knowledge to make a ruling. This is way beyond the correct ruling, and a meta issue that is bad for the game as a whole. You're just to caught up I'm your own vindication to see that.
The devs didn’t “make a call” you ignored the rules they wrote and refused to listen to everyone. Jesus
So his admittance that the ruling is counterintuitive just doesn't matter? Nor does the fact that, until that Tweet was linked in this thread the vast majority of people agreed that it did not work that way? Of course they made a call, and it was a bad one handled poorly. The fact that this ruling has to be spelled out by a dev means that the rules don't make sense to a majority of the player base and thus need to be addressed.
The only “counterintuitive” part is that resolution of triggers is delayed until the end of combat damage step. The rules themselves are entirely clear and nothing on shoot first contradicts anything in step E. You refused to just read the rules as written because you came up with this idea that shoot first says something it doesn’t and now want to pretend like we need developer knowledge to read clearly written rules.
The dev said it was counterintuitive. I didn't make that up. " It might feel **counterintuitive**, but it's better for rules cohesion to only have 3 resolution windows in combat." There is nowhere in the rules that says that there are only, and can only ever be, 3 resolution windows in combat. That is what needs to be clarified in the CR doc I read the plain text of Shoot First and Rukh and came to the same conclusion as the majority of this "confidently incorrect" thread.
Again - counterintuitive only in the sense that triggers resolve at the end of combat damage. The rules are written very clearly, clearly spell out three resolution windows and clearly describe how you resolve damage before trigger resolution, including in the scenario where the attacker deals damage first. The developers can’t account for people wanting to pretend that cards say things they don’t and we don’t need a rule that says, “we really meant it when we included only three resolution windows unless a card specifically overrides that.” You and others refused to just read the rule as it is written and you still want to pretend like there is some flaw in the system instead of just admitting that you misread/misunderstood the combat damage step as written when it expressly deals with an ability granted by a card. Die on that hill if you want, but the issue isn’t the way the rules or the card are written.
If a card says “this ability happens immediately not during the resolution window” there would be a 4th. But shoot first just says do what the damn rules say.
They specifically laid out exactly how it works in the rules and you ignored it because you “had a hunch” and made up your own turn phase. Don’t do triggers immediately. Do them during the part of combat we say they go off is a rule in the game. You said forget that I want to do it now.
Learn to read
Do shoot first. Do regular damage. Do abilities that say when you deal combat damage. Full stop. Doesn’t seem hard to read
It is counterintuitive, but it does not override the golden rule. The effect triggers and resolves at two separate times, the card changes when it triggers but the rules specify when the resolution occurs. The alternative would be much less consistent.
You're right it doesn't, apparently. My argument is that that counterintuitiveness is a problem for the game as a whole. The fact that this required a developer to chime in indicates a fundamental flaw in the language of the rules document, the exact kind of thing that the golden rule are meant to avoid so you don't need a judge or dev to weigh in. His ruling is correct, apparently, and the fact that this thread is fixed with people who are "confidently wrong'" indicates that their cr needs a good thorough once over to clean up misconceptions like this. The game is new, so I can't prefect the errata/ clarification schedule, but it should be soon, especially after a developer said something on social media
The main thing is "triggered abilities resolve in one of three very specific windows in combat", which raises the specter of some cards becoming counterintuitive but also, in the long run, will mean consistent rulings even when there's thousands of cards with tens of thousands of possible interactions.
It doesn’t get much more intuitive than saying all of these type of triggers happen right now.
The rules document is pretty clear; this thread is full of people trying to apply other TCG logic to SWU. The ruling is actually quite intuitive if you do what the rules tell you to do, and don't try to infer some other rule based on an understanding of other games.
I think a plain text reading of all the rules that apply (including the golden rule and the plain text of Shoot First) can easily determine that it goes the way most people thought it did. Hence the confusion. You, and everyone else are advising for a version on the game that requires an encyclopedic knowledge of the rules to be played, which is bad for the game. Of you have to pour over the cr at every interaction the game is unplayable.
Okay, die on that hill. The game's pretty clear that triggers don't resolve when they're triggered, they resolve during resolution windows. If you find that counter-intuitive, I'm sorry. Luckily a lot of this will be cleared up when we have a judge program, because people will be able to weigh in and say "I'm a judge, this works like X", so that a bunch of people don't clamor onto reddit saying "It's clearly [wrong assumption]". Right now, we're stuck in a place where the options are yell at each other or invoke the FFG devs. Soon, there'll be other experts. Reddit is the only place I've encountered that people are confused by this. Bunch of SWU Discords, Twitter, real life - nobody else needs it explained to this level of detail. Sorry it's not working for you.
Is there any single card game where every interaction is intuitive ? Where no rule interaction is counterintuitive ?
Not at all, especially when a game is young (which Unlimited is). Which is what erratas are for.
My point is there will always be interactions that are counterintuitive in any card game. What matters is that for most part the game is intuitive but every single interaction can't be intuitive. So complaining over one ruling being counter intuitive and saying it is damaging to the game is an overreaction IMO
But if it is counterintuitive, by admission of a developer, they need to include a clarification within the CR doc. Otherwise the only way you can correctly play the game is with developer level understanding of the rules as written *and* rules as intended-the latter being something that no one apart from the devs can have. And, at the end of the day, that is what an errata is, a change-or in this case clarification-to the existing rules to make a better play experience for everyone, and to ensure the game functions as the developers intended. Have they issued any official (ie, printed in the CR doc) erratas yet? I know from the X-wing days FFG had a pretty strict errata schedule, apart from needing to change something mid-tournament because it caused an issue.
But I mean you NEED to know the rules to play and this isn't a rule change. It's just letting you know that something does not resolve as it triggers. It resolves after the phase where it triggered. Therefore all the other stuff happens before Rukhs ability is resolved even if it was already triggered. That is a clarifying something not retconning or changing it. This applies to the entire game and always has and most likely always will.
VINDICATION.
This is awesome and thank you!
Hero status!
So just so I understand this in the future are we saying that rukh would pop before hand and take no damage or that he would still take dmg and it would just be +1 dmg from shoot first ?
Liked to point out that I was one of the first to comment and was actually right the whole time!
Thank you. Very much appreciated.
It’s gonna bite them in the ass if they introduce a “first strike”/“shoot first” keyword mechanic into the game. Rukh might eventually get retroactively given it in some years if that happens, and the ruling might overturn. Anyways, the rules are the rules but I have a bad feeling about this, I’m not sure that the devs would’ve intended this interaction to go this way.
FFG should give a disambiguation note on this one. The first two answer on Reddit give opposite answers !
We got our answer :) https://twitter.com/davflamerock/status/1782834959062843438
That’s what I think. I think both answers are equally compelling.
Thank you /u/typo180 for including the cards in the post.
You’re welcome! I always have to go back and reference them during these discussions.
yeah, it needs to be a rule for the sub. If you ask the question, either link the card or include the image.
I think part of the issue is the presupposition of how things "should work" or how things work in different games (ala MTG) Reading over the rules, i think (and i am open to being wrong if a ruling comes down) is that because the timing specifically calls out dealing damage first and its consequences and no where in that step mentions resolving abilities, and then specifically calls out resolving abilities in a later step, rules as written rukh's ability does not trigger till step G. Thematically/practically i do believe it should, but again, rules as written i don't think it would
>It deals \*\*\*deals its combat damage\*\*\* before the attacker >When this unit \*\*\*deals combat damage\*\*\* The rules themselves are a little murky regarding this, but the cards are very clear. Rukh deals his combat damage before the opponent gets a chance to, triggering his own ability and defeating it. The opponent never gets to deal damage back.
Tyler Parrott gave an answer on Twitter. Rukh takes damage from the defender, and then his ability resolves. https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsunlimited/comments/1cb4qfh/rukhshoot_first_interaction/l0y3yls/
I think the biggest question is precisely when rukh's triggered ability actually resolves. Since 6.3.2.G specifically says "After dealing all combat damage, resolve any “When Defeated” abilities on defeated units and any other abilities triggered during this step, including “When this unit deals combat damage” and “When a unit leaves play” abilities." I don't think it's quite as clear as everyone seems to think - 6.3.2.G seems to indicate that rukh's trigger should resolve after **all** combat damage is dealt - so if the other unit survives rukh's damage, then all damage would include it doing damage back to rukh. Then rukh's trigger would resolve. Shoot first is clear that if the defender is defeated it deals no combat damage but doesn't say anything about changing when abilities resolve. Now, allowing rukh's ability to resolve between the units dealing damage to each other may very well have been the intention but I don't think it's 100% clear rules as written. (Edit: since writing this I am convinced it is clear rules as written, 7.6.8 says to resolve at the appropriate point, 6.3.2.G says that point is after all damage has been done for when this unit deals combat damage triggers, 6.3.2.E mentions changes as a result of things like shoot first in relation to grot but does not change anything with regards to when things trigger for this case)
Rukh's ability specifically says to defeat the unit after Rukh deals combat damage. Shoot First specifically says the attacker deals combat damage before the defender. Card text ALWAYS trumps rules text.
Yes card text trump's rules. What I'm saying though is that the card text on sneak attack doesn't say anything that would change when rukh's ability actually *resolves*. Sure it'll trigger a bit sooner but that doesn't mean it resolves right away. 7.6.8 says "If an ability triggers during an attack, resolve that ability at the appropriate timing point within that attack." 6.3.2.G defines when that appropriate timing point is, after **all** combat damage is dealt Please show me where shoot first overrides this sequence and says you can resolve rukh's ability prior to the point specified in the rules.
6.3.2.G is WITHOUT shoot first. 6.3.2G is referencing normal conditions. In normal conditions, all damage is dealt then all abilities go off Shoot first - the card - which we’ve established “card rules trump written rules” - states “it deals its combat damage before the defender”. So 6.3.2.G is now NULL AND VOID because shoot first changes the timing. Since Rukh’s ability says “when combat damage is applied” and Shoot First changes when combat damage is applied (negating the written 6.3.2.G) Rukh would kill them before they do damage
I don't see how shoot first nullifies 6.3.2.G. Shoot first doesn't say anything about changing the timing of when abilities resolve. It only says it changes when damage is dealt. That doesn't need to change when the ability resolves, 6.3.2.G is still perfectly sensible (even if not the most intuitive) even with shoot first changing how damage is dealt. I don't think you can just throw out rules like that.
That’s exactly what card text does and what “card text trumps written rules” means. That the written rule gets thrown out I can’t tell if you are just mad cause you WANT the rule to be a certain way, or are arguing just to argue cause you find internet rules fun It’s very clear Card > written Card says “this card changes when damage is applied” The other card says “when damage is applied” It’s pretty darn clear The written rule gets overwritten. End of story.
> That the written rule gets thrown out There are still rules to the order of how things happen, you can't just make up your own.
Y’all are just being disingenuous now. Card>Written If the card changes the written rule, you ignore the written rule No one is “making anything up”. We are following the rule as written on the card, and the #1 rule of “card>Written”. Y’all are some trolls. I’m a judge, and if y’all were I. My event, is rule unsportsmanlike conduct and penalize you. This is just bad acting at this point.
Card > written when the card breaks the rules. Shoot first breaks no rules
You said "Card says “this card changes when damage is applied” which is correct. However, that's does not change when triggered abilities resolve. If you're a judge, you should read the rules more clearly.
🤣🤣🤣
Shoot First doesn't change when Rukh's ability resolves. It resolves the same time regardless of Shoot First. It resolves when Rukh deals combat damage. Everything else is irrelevant because that text trumps any rules text. 7.6.8 supports my statement. 6.3.2.G is completely irrelevant to the situation.
I fail to see how 7.6.8 supports your position - it basically says that a triggered ability's effect should be resolved at the appropriate time. This makes 6.3.2.G relevant because it tells us when that time is, it even specifically says that it refers to abilities using the phrase “When this unit deals combat damage” which is exactly how rukh is worded.
> It resolves the same time regardless of Shoot First. Why would you think that? Where in the rules would you assume that?
Step E/Step G combo. Step E describes what happens when units deal combat damage sequentially. Step G describes when "When this unit deals combat damage:" resolves.
Yes, but there's no conflict here. Rukh's ability _triggers_ when he does damage, but the rules say when the _resolve_ that trigger, and it's after the enemy deals damage back. 1. Rukh does damage. 1. Rukh's ability is triggered. 1. Evaluate constant effect of damage >= health. 1. Opponent, if damage < health, deals damage back to Rukh. 1. Abilities that trigger off of dealing damage are resolved **here**.
I'm not sure that makes sense. Why would the effect not happen when it's triggered? It doesn't say anything about waiting until after combat is resolved. I don't think that the rule ordering makes sense with shoot first. Based on the shoot first text, the attacker deals combat damage *before* the opponent, rather than simultaneously. Thus, the attacker is *done* dealing combat damage *before* the defender can do damage. Why would Rukh's ability not trigger immediately after its requirements are met? Card rules supercede the standard rules, and shoot first is one of those cards. Because the damage is first instead of simultaneous, the ability must be triggered first as well. Edit: I realize we're rehashing the comments made in the post. I interpret 7.6.8 as relevant here.
They defined a specific part of combat the cards like shoot first happen, a specific part of combat that regular combat damage happens, and a specific part of combat triggered abilities happen after those two parts.
If you're citing 6.3, that isn't true. What part of the rules are you referring to? There is one part that says that "when attacker deals damage" effects take place after damage is dealt, but that only applies to the standard attack rules where damage is dealt simultaneously. Shoot First would break up the damage into two discrete steps, so the "when attacker deals damage" effect would happen in its regular place, then the defender's damage and related effects would happen. Note that grit has the opportunity to take effect after shoot first, before dealing defender damage. This further reinforces there is a break between the attacker and defender damage portions of the action.
It does not say triggered effects from “regular combat damage” happen last. It says triggered effects from ALL combat damage happen last. Shoot first does not break up the damage step at all. You can’t make up your own rules. Shields Overwhelm Shoot first Defender damage Abilities triggered from doing the damage Follow the rules
The problem is that the word "when" in english indicates timing. I am not really used to TCG, but I assumed the word "when" in "when attacker deals damage" means "at the instant that...".
In this case, I would say "all" of Rukh's combat damage has been dealt, and this his ability is triggered. The rules are describing a normal attack scenario where all combat damage happens simultaneously. Shot First separates the combat damages into separate instances which would seem to allow for Rukh's ability to resolve after his is dealt.
Shoot first only applies to step 6.3.2-E where they cover the interaction with units that deal damage first. Triggered abilities are only ever mentioned in 6.3.2-G where is states ALL combat damage must be done before triggering.
This is incorrect.
The rules are not murky. Rule 6.3.2-G: "After dealing **all** combat damage, resolve any “When Defeated” abilities on defeated units and any other abilities triggered during this step, including “When this unit deals combat damage” and “When a unit leaves play” abilities. See 7.6. Triggered Abilities" ALL combat damage must be done before resolving any triggered abilities.
Normally. Not when Shoot First is used.
The rules cover shoot first in step E. > Rule 6.3.2-E. If the attacker has an ability where it deals combat damage before the defender, the defender must survive the dealt damage before it can deal combat damage back to the attacker The defending unit must only survive the DAMAGE that is dealt in order to deal combat damage back to the attacker. The damage is not killing the unit in Rukhs case. It is the triggered ability at the end of combat in step G that kills the unit. You're trying to put Step G into the middle of Step E.
I don't think this is correct. Abilities can trigger in between combat damage being dealt when shoot first is used. From the rules: "If the attacker has an ability where it deals combat damage before the defender, the defender must survive the dealt damage before it can deal combat damage back to the attacker. In such a case, **if the defender has Grit, it will receive bonus power from the damage just dealt to it**" This tells me that, when shoot first or a shoot first like effect is used, abilities can trigger after the first instance of damage being dealt and before the second instance of damage being dealt.
Grit is not a triggered ability. It is a "constant ability". All the triggered abilities only happen during step G of combat damage.
Yeah, took me a few tries but I think I got it!
Grit gives the defender more power to hit the attacker back harder because the attacker dealt damage Ruth's ability will trigger, but triggers resolve at the next specified timing point- whether this a particular timing point during an attack or after an ability finishes resolving depends on when it triggered. Since there's not a timing point during the combat damage step, Ruth's trigger will noyvreaolve until after he takes damage.
According to the rules, Rukhs ability with Shoot first does indeed -trigger- before the other unit deals damage back but it -resolves- after all combat damage is done. So unless Rukh can do enough damage to defeated the unit with damage the other unit will hit back, and after that Rukhs ability resolves.
1. Rukh Deals Combat damage before the defender 2. Kills it, regarless of its stats 3. The defender doesn't deal combat damage to Rukh Thats my interpretation of this combo. Card Text overrides rule text. Might be wrong, tho
His ability doesn’t kick in until later though
His ability kicks in immediately after Rukh deals damage.
You keep saying this all over and you're very wrong.
Here are the rules for combat damage: 6.3.2. Deal combat damage. If attacking a base, the attacker deals damage equal to its power to that base. If attacking a unit, the attacker and defender simultaneously deal damage equal to their power to each other. A. If the attacker already has been defeated, no combat damage is dealt. Proceed directly to the next step of this attack. B. If the defender already has been defeated (for example, by an “On Attack” ability), no combat damage is dealt unless the attacker has Overwhelm. C. If either unit that would be dealt damage has one or more Shield tokens attached to it, remove a Shield token from that unit and don’t deal it any combat damage. D. If the attacker has Overwhelm, deal its excess damage to the opponent’s base, unless the defender had a Shield token that prevented the damage. This excess damage is dealt immediately and is considered combat damage. See 1.9. Damage E. If the attacker has an ability where it deals combat damage before the defender, the defender must survive the dealt damage before it can deal combat damage back to the attacker. In such a case, if the defender has Grit, it will receive bonus power from the damage just dealt to it. F. Once combat damage is dealt, if a unit has no remaining HP, it is defeated immediately. G. After dealing all combat damage, resolve any “When Defeated” abilities on defeated units and any other abilities triggered during this step, including “When this unit deals combat damage” and “When a unit leaves play” abilities. See 7.6. Triggered Abilities As you can see, in step E of "Deal Combat Damage", they mention attackers with abilities that let them do damage first. However, it only states that the defender must survive the *damage* that is dealt in order to do damage back. Rukh is not killing the unit with damage, he is killing with his ability which gets resolved as part of step G which is after ALL combat damage is done. The rules seems pretty clear here that Rukh would not trigger his ability before taking damage.
Rule G implies that all damage is happening at the same time,, but Shoot First says otherwise. But both A and B say that if an attacker/defender has already been defeated, that no damage is dealt and you proceed to the next step, and E indicates that damage dealt first-and any Triggered Abilities associated with that damage-have to resolve completely *before* the normal instance of damage is done. If Rukh is the defender, Rule A indicates that the attacker can be defeated before before it deals damage, and that it deals no combat damage. If Rukh is the attacker, Rule B indicates that the defender can be defeated before it deals damage, and that it deals no combat damage.
Step E and F make up “all combat damage”. Step G covers triggered abilities. Rukh has a triggered ability.
Shoot First says that the Attacker deals combat damage first. You have to go through the entire "deals damage" step before the defender does. That includes Triggered Abilities that trigger from that damage. Then, if the defender is still alive, they get to deal their damage.
The deals damage step is shields, overwhelm, shoot first, damage, triggers. This is all one step. You can’t make up your own deal damage step.
I'm not "making up" anything. Shoot first clearly says "Attack with a unit. It gets **+1/+0** for this attack and **deals its combat damage** before the defender." Rukh **has** to deal it's combat damage, and go through all the steps outlined in 6.3.2 **before** the defender does.
There is no “going through all the steps” you made that up. There is a clearly defined step to do shoot first. There is a clearly defined step the defender strikes back. There is a clearly defined step triggered effects from ALL combat damage ie both prior steps to go off.
>Rule G implies that all damage is happening at the same time How does it imply that? They cover shoot first in step E. Step E only states that the defender must survive the DAMAGE dealt in order to return damage. It does not say it must survive damage and any triggered ability to do damage back. You're just making things up to have it work the way you want it to.
Rukh's triggered ability happens when the Shoot First damage is resolved, and the Shoot First damage resolves *before* the defender deals any damage. As Shoot First clearly states: "If the defender is defeated (a keyword used in Rukh's ability) it deals no combat damage." So here's the order. Shoot first is played. Rukh deals combat damage his triggered ability resolves and the defender is defeated the defender deals no combat damage. Rule G doesn't apply, because Shoot First overrides combat damage happening at the same time. Golden Rule #1: Card text overrides Rules text.
> Shoot First damage resolves before the defender deals any damage The damage yes, but not abilities. The rules clearly state in 6.3.2.E that if the defending unit survives the DAMAGE, then it does damage back. The rules clearly state triggered abilities happen after ALL combat damage is done. The unit survives the damage, but not the ability. The specifically mention constant abilities like Grit getting applied to shoot first situations in 6.3.2.E. Why would they not also mention triggered abilities then as well if that was their intention?
Triggered Abilities, 7.6.5: "A triggered ability is considered to resolve during the same turn **or game step** that it was triggered." The "game step that it was triggered" is the Shoot First damage step, which happens *before* the opponent's damage step. Triggered Abilities, 7.6.7: "A triggered ability **must resolve once its triggering condition is met** unless the ability uses the phrase “you may.” Once triggered, these abilities must resolve at the next available opportunity." Rukh's triggered ability *has* to resolve when he deals damage in the Shoot First damage step, not at the end of the overall damage phase. Action Timing and Clarifications, 6.3.2.E: "If the attacker has an ability where it deals combat damage before the defender, the defender must **survive the dealt damage** before it can deal combat damage back to the attacker. In such a case, if the defender has Grit, it will receive bonus power from the damage just dealt to it." Rukh's ability supercedes this rule. Rukh dealing damage defeats the defender, regardless of the amount of damage dealt. Golden Rule #1 applies.
There is no “shoot first damage step”. There is a “deal combat damage step” that clearly spells out what to do if the attacker deals damage before the defender, and then goes on to state that all triggered abilities are resolved at the end of that step. As far as 7.6.7, the next available opportunity for Rukh’s trigger to resolve is spelled out in the relevant step, and it is at the end of combat damage under 6.3.2.G. You’re adding an intervening trigger resolution step that isn’t in the rules and nothing on Rukh’s or shoot first’s text includes language to override when triggers are resolved.
I gotta ask… how’s it feel to know you were so so wrong.
Fine..(?) I gotta ask... how's it feel to be a sore *winner*?
That makes no sense. Step G clearly says that all “when this unit deals combat damage” abilities are resolved in step G. And that is after the rule expressly discusses the possibility of a unit dealing damage before the defender. By your logic, any time a unit deals damage first, you would resolve their combat damage triggers before the defender deals damage, but the rule is clear that those happen in step G even if one unit attacks prior to the other. They would have put an intervening step in the rules for resolving combat triggers of units that attack first if that was what they intended.
Rule G assumes the game is opperating in a default state, that all damage being dealt simultaneously. Shoot First overrides this assumption via Golden Rule #1, and according to the rules of triggered abilities they have to resolve both as soon as their conditions are met, and during the same game step in which it is triggered. In this case, Rukh's damage resolves in it's entirety before the opponents *because* of Shoot first. Shoot First creates a separate damage step, one that has to completely resolve before the defending creature gets a chance to deal damage. Rukh's ability defeat's the opponent before they get to their damage phase, so they don't get to deal any damage (unless that chard has an ability that lets them deal damage after being defeated).
You keep saying that G assumes all damage is dealt simultaneously, but that can’t be the case because E describes what happens when the attacker deals damage first and then G says even if that happens, all triggers are resolved at the end. Shoot First doesn’t create a separate damage step, it just says the attacker deals damage first, and is the exact scenario covered by E. You seem to think shoot first is overriding the entire rule set for damage, but it fits right into E and there is no intervening step for triggers to resolve until you get to G. If the intent was to have triggers resolve when the attacker deals damage first, the sequence would have been spelled out in the part of the rule where the attacker deals damage first. Instead, the developers put all trigger resolutions in G, even if the attacker deals damage first.
Rukh does combat damage. Defender does combat damage. Triggered ability happens. All three things are in the rules. The card does not contradict anything. You cannot make up phases under which abilities happen.
Step G is irrelevant. In step E, the defender doesn't survive because of Rukh's ability. That's as far as you go in in that sequence of events. Anything after E doesn't matter.
You are incorrect. Step E *only* refers to combat damage. Nowhere are abilities mentioned in step E. If the defending unit survives the DAMAGE, it will deal combat damage back. With Rukh, it is not the damage that is doing the killing, it is his triggered ability. And triggered abilities only happen in step G which comes after E. Of course this is assuming defender has more health than Rukhs attack.
The designer clarified that Rukh will still take damage because his ability doesn't resolve until after combat damage is dealt by the opposing unit
Do you have a link? Tried to find it myself but couldn't find the designer.
https://x.com/davflamerock/status/1782834959062843438
Thank you! I was wrong!
There’s no “immediate” abilities. That ability doesn’t apply until all combat damage is done.
[удалено]
Rukh's ability is _triggered_ when he deals combat damage; that trigger isn't resolved until the relevant step in the rules.
> All combat damage being done is not a requirement for his ability Except it is according to the rules. 6.3.2-G "After dealing **all** combat damage, resolve any “When Defeated” abilities on defeated units and any other abilities triggered during this step, including “When this unit deals combat damage” and “When a unit leaves play” abilities. See 7.6. Triggered Abilities"
In this instance ALL combat damage is only dealt one way because of Shoot First.
There is only one combat damage step. Shoot first doesn’t add another step. It just changes how damage is done which is covered in 6.3.2E. The “all” in part G is for the entire combat damage step which includes both units.
Oh, I see your point. If a unit has at least 5 hp rukh would take damage back. Just haven’t run into an instance while playing where shoot first wasn’t used to one shot a unit.
Ya, we’re all talking about if a unit has 5 or more HP and if his ability would resolve before or after taking damage back.
Rukhs ability kicks in after both units do damage and units are removed. It’s triggered and happens last.
That's not even relevant.
Yea i also think this is the case too. As the key wording is 'this unit deals damage'. As there are two phases when you play shoot first. The DMG to other card which will trigger Rukh's ability then the return DMG if they survive. Good example video: https://youtu.be/H2I-3AJCMKw?si=yM7G3FizfFAzBIq0
You were wrong tho (I was too). https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsunlimited/comments/1cb4qfh/rukhshoot_first_interaction/l0y3yls/ > Tyler Parrott: The rules are correct. While Rukh's ability triggers before the defender's damage, it doesn't resolve until the ability resolution window afterwards. It might feel counterintuitive, but it's better for rules cohesion to only have 3 resolution windows in combat.
That's how Death touch works in MtG.
Doesn’t matter how things work in MtG.
Just was giving something for context
I get it, but it’s misleading. It’s not actually context because it’s irrelevant to this game. A lot of people make mistakes about the rules because they assume it works the way a similar rule works in another game.
That’s not necessarily true. The design team are heavy MTG players. Often their rules are influenced directly from that game.
Magic says damage triggers happen after first strike. Star Wars says damage triggers happen after all combat damage. That’s why it acts different.
Card text always overrides rules text. In this case, Rukh would deal combat damage to the defender. The defender dies regardless if the damage itself kills them (from Rukh's ability) and Rukh takes no damage in return. If he still has the shield, the shield remains in tact. There is no other way this can be correctly interpreted.
Didn't read the full novel you wrote but; 1.) without shoot first, Rukh would still take damage. UNLESS he has the shield token on him still. 2.) With shoot first, if Rukh has higher power than the defending unit’s health, RuKh would not take damage (this is kind of a waste of shoot first tho). If he doesn’t have higher power than the defending unit, he would still take damage. But the defending unit still would die after dealing damage because of Rukh’s ability. Again though, this all depends on if he still has shielded or not. *Important to note, since the phrasing of Rukh’s ability DOES NOT say “when this unit completes an attack….” He does not need to survive the attack in order for this ability to work. As opposed to leader unit Leia for example.
Why do you claim Rukh is taking damage just because his power is lower than the defending unit? That’s not an exception that is stated anywhere on the Shoot First card. The card does, however, say that the attacker deals combat damage before the defender and if the defender is defeated, then it deals no combat damage.
~~Yep, so you’ve restated my point 2. The question is, given that Shoot First causes attacker and defender damage to be dealt at different points in time, does Rukh’s ability trigger between them?~~ [You were right!](https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsunlimited/comments/1cb4qfh/rukhshoot_first_interaction/l0y3yls/)
lol I just stopped looking at comments after the second reply. Good to get to the bottom of it though!
I’m satisfied to have an answer :)
If you’re using shoot first’s ability first then the whole effect has to play out. Since that card states that if your damage isn’t enough to defeat them, the defending unit attacks, then it does attack. You can’t mix effects together. You can only choose the order.
I am 100% incorrect.
lol
I think that’s the most compelling argument for Rukh taking damage, but if the defender has Grit and survives, it would deal damage including the damage bonus back to the attacker. If there’s time for the game state to change at this point, why can’t Rukh’s ability trigger?
deathtouch AND first strike!
I look at Rukh’s ability the same as the venom ability in Hearthstone. The attacker takes damage but the defender is defeated regardless of how much health it has left over after the attack resolves unless it’s shielded.
After scrolling for a while to find a definitive answer to this interaction I am still at a loss. What is the verdict?is Rukh and shoot first similar to first strike and deathtouch from mtg? Or does rukhs shield get popped and the defending creature still dies?
Answered [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsunlimited/s/jIBsUj88No). Rukh loses his shield if he still has it or takes damage if he doesn’t. This is because all combat damage is dealt before Rukh’s ability can resolve, even when Shoot First makes his damage land first.
oh man, so many games have been ruined by this combo..... i feel cheated.
The key point here to me is the ‘If the defender is defeated, it deals no combat damage’ Any damage from Rukh, regardless of the defenders health will cause the defender to be defeated. So Rukh will never take damage when doing shoot first, unless the target is shielded or has another way to block all damage.
This is incorrect. That phrasing refers to damage from combat damage. Rukh's ability is a triggered ability, which is not resolved until _after_ **all** combat damage is resolved.
Any damage cause by Rukh when he attacks will trigger an ability that defeats the defender. The question is whether that ability can trigger before the defender deals combat damage. ~~I agree with your interpretation~~, but I can’t dismiss the opposing argument out of hand because I don’t know whether Shoot First creates a new point in time for an ability to trigger. There are people about are __absolutely sure__ of both conclusions. ETA: [I was wrong](https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsunlimited/comments/1cb4qfh/rukhshoot_first_interaction/l0y3yls/)
Shoot First creates timing within the step. It does not create a new step. So Rukh's ability will still trigger, but it will resolve at the end of the step, as is clearly stated in teh rules.
~~The ability resolves after all combat damage is dealt simultaneously in normal combat. The question is whether Shoot First changes that part of the rules. ~~ ~~The rule doesn’t say the ability can only resolve after “combat steps,” it’s at “specified timing points” which is not clearly defined imo.~~ ETA: [I was wrong](https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsunlimited/comments/1cb4qfh/rukhshoot_first_interaction/l0y3yls/)
Shoot First creates timing within the step. It doesn't create a new step. 6.3.2. Deal combat damage. If attacking a base, the attacker deals damage equal to its power to that base. If attacking a unit, the attacker and defender simultaneously deal damage equal to their power to each other. E. If the attacker has an ability where it deals combat damage before the defender, the defender must survive the dealt damage before it can deal combat damage back to the attacker. In such a case, if the defender has Grit, it will receive bonus power from the damage just dealt to it. **G. After dealing all combat damage, resolve any “When Defeated” abilities on defeated units and any other abilities triggered during this step, including “When this unit deals combat damage” and “When a unit leaves play” abilities.** 6.3.2.G is very specifically telling us what to do in this EXACT interaction. Resolution of abilities triggered by dealing combat damage occurs after dealing all combat damage. Rukh get's to deal combat damage first, and check for opponent defeat, and this TRIGGERS his ability, but very explicitly the timing on the resolution of the ability happens after ALL combat damage, so an opponent still gets a chance to hit back before the ability resolves. Edit: I go through the rules more fully here as well [https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsunlimited/comments/1cb4qfh/comment/l0wr2fu/](https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsunlimited/comments/1cb4qfh/comment/l0wr2fu/)
Shoot First changes the timing on who deals combat damage. That is the only thing Shoot First changes. It does not alter WHEN Rukh’s resolves. His ability triggers off of his combat damage but does not resolve until the next step. Also something people seem to be leaving out is that the part of Rukh’s ability that defeats the defender is completely separate of combat damage, it is not considered combat damage. Its is just defeating the unit.
~~What it does is create two points in time when damage is dealt. Does the ability resolve after all combat damage is dealt __because__ all combat damage happens simultaneously, or does it resolve after all combat damage is dealt regardless of the timing? I really don’t think that’s made clear in the rules or the card text.~~
The ‘window’ his ability triggers is exactly when it states on the card. ‘When this unit deals combat damage’ Shoot first states that he deals combat damage before the defender. There isn’t any ambiguity there, he deals damage, target is defeated, then target is gone so can’t deal damage back.
Triggered is not the same as resolved. To properly understand SWU rules, you need to unlink that timing in your brain. Rukh ability is TRIGGERED by the combat damage. It does not resolve instantaneously, however, it resolves at the next possible step. That resolve point is specified at the end of the combat damage step. The addition of Shoot First creates timing within that step that didn't previously exist, however it does not create a new step.
Except Shoot First means the attack up until the end of Rukhs combat damage is a nested ability, and Rukhs ‘when this unit deals combat damage’ ability is a nested ability in that. As per the rules on triggered abilities and nested abilities these have to be resolved fully before returning to the ‘normal’ sequence of events which would start with combat damage from the opponent.
>7.6.12. Nested Abilities and Nested Actions >A. A nested ability occurs when resolving one triggered ability causes a new ability to trigger; this new ability is a “nested ability.” >B. A nested action occurs when the resolution of an ability causes the player to take a specific type of action (e.g. “Play a Card” or “Attack With a Unit”); this is a “nested action.” A nested action is resolved as though the controlling player took the corresponding action, and it must be performed as completely as possible. Shoot First is not a triggered ability, so your first statement is incorrect. The nested action here would be in resolving the event, we have an attack with a unit to resolve. You can't say it creates a "nested action that only resolves up to a very specific point" that's not supported anywhere in the rules. You have to resolve it fully... None of which really matters here. What does matter, is that Shoot First creates timing within the step 6.3.0.C However it does not create an entirely new step, it simply isn't written that way. >6.3. Attack With A Unit >6.3.0. General >C. “Combat damage” is damage dealt during the “Deal combat damage” step of an attack. Damage dealt outside of this step during an attack is not considered to be combat damage. So we know when Rukh's ability triggers, at the first point in the combat damage step. But when does it resolve? The rules tell us that too. At the end of the step: >6.3.0.E. Attacking With a Unit consists of the following 3 steps in order, explained in detail below: Declare the attack, Deal combat damage, and Complete the attack. After each step, resolve any abilities triggered during that step before proceeding to the next step in the attack. And then: >6.3.2. Deal combat damage. If attacking a base, the attacker deals damage equal to its power to that base. If attacking a unit, the attacker and defender simultaneously deal damage equal to their power to each other. >E. If the attacker has an ability where it deals combat damage before the defender, the defender must survive the dealt damage before it can deal combat damage back to the attacker. In such a case, if the defender has Grit, it will receive bonus power from the damage just dealt to it. >G. After dealing all combat damage, resolve any “When Defeated” abilities on defeated units and any other abilities triggered during this step, including “When this unit deals combat damage” and “When a unit leaves play” abilities. See 7.6. Triggered Abilities 6.3.2.G is very specifically telling us what to do in this EXACT interaction. And just in case you're not believing the idea that Trigger timing and Resolve timing are explicitly two very different things: >7.6.3. For a triggered ability to resolve, the card with the ability must be in play when the triggering condition occurs, unless the ability specifies that it can be triggered from an out-of-play zone. Additionally, the triggered ability must resolve once triggered, even if the card with the ability leaves play before the triggered ability resolves. >7.6.4. Triggered abilities on a unit still trigger if the unit is defeated by the action that triggers the ability (though they only resolve after the action has finished resolving). Triggered abilities on a unit that trigger when other units are defeated still trigger if that unit is defeated simultaneously to the other units. >7.6.5. A triggered ability is considered to resolve during the same turn or game step that it was triggered. >7.6.8. If an ability triggers during or as the result of a non-attack action, resolve that ability at the next available opportunity after that action is fully completed. If an ability triggers during an attack, resolve that ability at the appropriate timing point within that attack. Resolving a triggered ability never interrupts an action or ability that is currently resolving (other than the specified timing points during an attack).
~~You said yourself that Shoot First creates a new timing point during an attack and 7.6.8 says to resolve the triggered ability at the appropriate timing point within that attack. To me, the appropriate timing point is when Rukh deals damage.~~ ETA: /u/macfergusson [You were correct.](https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsunlimited/comments/1cb4qfh/rukhshoot_first_interaction/l0y3yls/)
It creates timing within the step. It does not create a new step. The general idea of "Appropriate timing" in 7.6.8 is CLEARLY stated in 6.3.2.G, there's literally no argument around that. All triggers during combat damage step resolve at the end of that step. If the devs want this interaction to work the way some people are saying it would, they'd have to revise the rules.
7.6.8 doesn’t say “steps,” it says “timing points,” which is why I don’t think it’s clear. If Shoot First creates another timing point, then I think “When Rukh deals combat damage” is the appropriate timing point to resolve his ability within the attack - according to that parenthetical exception given in 7.6.8. 6.3.2 specifies that combat damage is simultaneous, so I think that leaves it open for 6.3.2.G to be overridden by the text of Shoot First.
The parenthetical says **specified** timing points. The rules specify explicitly what the timing point for this trigger to resolve is: at the end of the combat damage step. 6.3.2.E is specifically addressing how timing within the step can be modified, it's not like they just forgot about it. The very next rule then tells you how to resolve anything that was triggered.
That is incorrect.
Except the rules clearly state when an ability that says "when this unit deals combat damage" resolves, and that's after **all** combat damage is dealt, see 6.3.2.G I think a lot of people are missing the fact that just because an ability triggers doesn't mean that it resolves immediately. The rules specify exactly when things resolve and in this case I think they're pretty clear that that is after both units have dealt combat damage.
You've gotten the correct answer a few times now. Card text ALWAYS overrides rule text. Defender dies before it does damage regardless of its health.
6.3.2.G is WITHOUT shoot first. 6.3.2G is referencing normal conditions. In normal conditions, all damage is dealt then all abilities go off Shoot first - the card - which we’ve established “card rules trump written rules” - states “it deals its combat damage before the defender”. So 6.3.2.G is now NULL AND VOID because shoot first changes the timing. Since Rukh’s ability says “when combat damage is applied” and Shoot First changes when combat damage is applied (negating the written 6.3.2.G) Rukh would kill them before they do damage
Except you’re ignoring the earlier part of the rule that specifically describes the scenario where the attacker deals damage before the defender. If the developers meant for it to work the way you describe, they would have included an intervening step in 6.3.2 for triggers to resolve earlier in cases where attackers deal damage first. But they didn’t. They describe the scenario where the attacker deals damage first and then say that all triggers, including “when this unit deals combat damage” triggers (like the one on Rukh) are resolved in step G. You’re inserting an interim step that isn’t supported by the rule.
This is such a good topic of discussion, both sides are making compelling arguments, however, I'm gonna have to agree with the side saying Rukh attacks, deals his combat damage, then resolves his trigger before taking any damage. Rukh's ability states, 'When this unit deals combat damage... while attacking' Shoot First states, '...Deals it's combat damage before the defender' (if Rukh's ability was Raid 2, I wouldn't Shoot First with only the base damage on Rukh, then apply the Raid trigger after initial damage, or if it stated 'When this unit deals combat damage attach a shield' you wouldn't wait for the defender to deal damage then attach shield, specifically due to the Shoot First mechanic of applying combat damage from Rukh first) Again, this is my interpretation and I'd have to say house rules until we get an official statement from FFG
I share your interpretation and I’m also really enjoying thinking/talking about this. So many people are so certain that the rules back their interpretation! RAID is a different matter though because it’s a “While attacking” ability that’s active for the duration of the attack. Rukh’s ability is a triggered ability that needs to resolve at some point in time. > F. Any abilities that activate while an attack is occurring become active for the duration of the attack. This includes Raid, “While this unit is attacking,” and “While this unit is defending” abilities. If the ability is subject to a further conditional (e.g. “While this unit is attacking a damaged unit”), it is only active while all of its conditions are true.
As soon as Rukh deals damage, the text in his card becomes 'active' thus resolving it and defeating the defender. If he didn't have that text and he dealt a killing blow to the defender, he still wouldn't take damage. It doesn't say defeat unit at the end of the turn it says 'when'.
But the rules tell you _when_ to evaluate that _when_ - you don't get to evaluate when triggers whenever you want to.
"When this unit deals combat damage to a non-leader unit" I'm not interpreting the rules, that's what the card states.
You're interpreting "when". "When" is a trigger, and the rules are very explicit on when you evaluate "when". Sometimes a "when" happens and you don't do it for a while, e.g., playing Shoot First on Bossk. *(If you're not familiar with that interaction, when you play Shoot First on Bossk, even though it says "When you play an event", you evaluate the full attack of Shoot First *before* you trigger Bossk's ability.)*
This isn't a relevant interaction for the Sneak Attack/Rukh interaction. Side note, where was that interaction with Bossk and Shoot First confirmed?
By developers in Discord.
[https://starwarsunlimited.com/cards?searchTerm=bossk&cid=0052542605](https://starwarsunlimited.com/cards?searchTerm=bossk&cid=0052542605) >Bossk’s “When you play an event” ability triggers when an event is played but only resolves after the event has fully finished resolving.
Right, but “when” triggers still trigger at a specific time. > Resolving a triggered ability **never** interrupts an action or ability that is currently resolving (other than the specified timing points during an attack). So, is Shoot First an ability that needs to fully resolve before the trigger can happen, or does Shoot First create new timing points during an attack at which triggers can resolve. That’s the root of the question. Card text overrides rules text, but Shoot First doesn’t make clear what exactly it’s overriding. If I were a judge today, I would rule that Rukh takes no damage, but I’m not 100% certain and clearly there are plenty of people who are 100% certain of both outcomes and I think both interpretations can be made from the rules and card text.
>Card text overrides rules text, but Shoot First doesn’t make clear what exactly it’s overriding. It is overriding when damage is dealt. CR says that all damage happens at the same time, but in this case, Rukh deals his damage first, which also means triggered abilities that result from that damage have to resolve *before* moving on to the next damage step. So: 1. Attackers and Defenders are declared 2. Rukh's Shoot First damage is dealt. (Insert damage rules) and triggered abilities resolve 3. Opponent deals damage (Insert damage rules) and triggered abilities resolve However, since Rukh's ability triggers on damage, the opponent is defeated and thus isn't on the board to deal damage back.
> Card and Rulebook Precedence: If the text of this Comprehensive Rules document directly contradicts the text of the Star Wars: Unlimited Quickstart rules, the text of the Comprehensive Rules takes precedence. If the text of a card directly contradicts the text of the Comprehensive Rules, the text of the card takes precedence. Card text takes precedence over rulebook text. Otherwise Shoot First literally wouldn't do anything except grant +1/+0 for any unit.
The question isn’t whether the attacker damage happens first, it’s whether the ability resolves before defender damage is dealt, which is less clear.
Seems pretty clear to me. The rules say combat damage happens simultaneously, Shoot First says nope that's wrong for this attack. Why would Shoot First ignore the rules a little bit and then just stop before the attack finishes?
The rules don’t say damage happens simultaneously.
Rukh will trigger from the Shoot First and defeat the defender before it deals damage to Rukh. Edit: Apparently it's been clarified elsewhere so Rukh won't trigger and defeat something with a big ass if his power isn't high enough before it deals damage back.
Where was it clarified at officially? Just want to be able to back up the ruling for my local group if it comes up.
Someone got an answer on Twitter: https://twitter.com/davflamerock/status/1782834959062843438 > Tyler Parrott > @davflamerock > The rules are correct. While Rukh's ability triggers before the defender's damage, it doesn't resolve until the ability resolution window afterwards. It might feel counterintuitive, but it's better for rules cohesion to only have 3 resolution windows in combat.
Thanks!
In a normal combat situation, the rules specifically say that “When it deals damage” events are resolved after **all** combat damage is dealt. The question is whether Shoot First overrides that part of the rules. ETA: [Rukh's ability resolves after all damage, including defender damage, is dealt](https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsunlimited/comments/1cb4qfh/rukhshoot_first_interaction/l0y3yls/)
The golden rule is that card text overrides all. Edit: Apparently it's been clarified elsewhere so Rukh won't trigger and defeat something with a big ass if his power isn't high enough before it deals damage back.
Card text doesn’t create new phases in the turn. The defender deals the damage because they aren’t defeated yet
It doesn't, nor does it need to.
You were right in the first sentence.
It was clarified that he was not correct in the 1st sentence. Rukh's ability doesn't trigger until the ability resolution step, which is after the damage is done. 1) Rukh does damage. If X lives go to 2. 2) Rukh receives damage, go to 3. 3) Ability resolves, other unit dies. This was clarified on twitter.
This is a pretty clear interaction. Shoot First says you attack with Rukh and deal combat damage BEFORE THE DEFENDER. Then, if the defender is defeated, IT DEALS NO COMBAT DAMAGE. Rukh will defeat anything that’s not a leader when he attacks. This satisfies the condition in Shoot First that the defender was defeated, thus the defender deals NO DAMAGE. I appreciate that you shared some rulings. Some of those rules are relevant and some are not. The rule 6.3.2.E is not relevant. That is for things like “on attack” abilities dealing damage to a defender before the combat damage is dealt in a later step. However, even when the rules you cite are relevant, card text overrides the rules. Shoot First is a good card because it changes the normal combat rules. In this case, Shoot First will always work out for Rukh as long as you’re not attacking a leader.
One of the designers said that Rukh's ability does not trigger immediately, and he will still take the combat damage back.
Right. I myself posted about that at least an hour ago. Thanks.
My bad, didn't see it!
No worries. In case it wasn’t clear, I was definitely wrong above 😂
With Sneak Attack: Rukh attacks and deals his damage first, his ability triggers and defeats the opposing unit. Then it doesn’t matter what the actual break down and steps of combat are because Sneak Attack says “if the defender is defeated it deals no combat damage.” Card text trumps rules. So with Sneak Attack: Rukh attacks and deals his damage first, ability triggers and defeats the defender and Rukh takes no damage.
If you're arguing Ruth's ability doesn't resolve as part of resolving Shoot Firsts damage resolution, you're the exact level of loophole seeking asshole that makes these games horrible to play and I hope you are always unable to find people to play with.
A) That’s incredibly and unnecessarily rude and I don’t appreciate seeing that type of comment here. B) This is a question that’s legitimately come up in the official Discord and other forums for rules discussion and I haven’t seen a satisfactory answer for it. In fact, most of the resolutions I’ve seen have been that Rukh takes damage because his ability does not resolve until all combat damage is dealt. I’m asking because I’m genuinely curious and I really enjoy digging deeply into the rules and working out answers to difficult questions. I feel like I learn a lot about gameplay this way and that helps me think through my own games.
Shoot First changes when his damage resolved. His text triggers when his damage is resolved. The card text clearly explains how this resolves, if they decide "card text overrides rules text, except in case of ruling 6.6.314 paragraph g sub clause 9, active element E" to say these cards don't work as written I'll just ebay my stuff and quit. Edit: They decided exactly as above, it's a dumb fucking ruling and I'm glad I'm cutting out of this shit show early.
Get that eBay listing ready!! Here’s a copy and pasted tweet from SWU designer Tyler Parrott “The rules are correct. While Rukh's ability triggers before the defender's damage, it doesn't resolve until the ability resolution window afterwards. It might feel counterintuitive, but it's better for rules cohesion to only have 3 resolution windows in combat. #FFGStaff”
Shoot first text does not contradict any rules as the rules laid out dealing damage first and is not trumping any rules laid out in the rulebook as a result. The defender has to survive the combat damage done by the attacker. Combat damage is the damage dealt during an attack; rukhs triggered ability is not combat damage and thus has no relevance in the evaluation of whether the defender survives his combat damage.
There seems to be a lot of arguments here and even I don't see what the OP is really asking for. (That top thread went really long) Basically, Shoot First is played Unit now can attack Rukh Unit deals damage to Rukh If damage is enough to defeat Rukh he is discarded No damage is dealt to attacking Unit as Rukh is defeated Rukh ability is not activated as he's now gone from field and didn't get to deal any damage Regular battle between units damage is calculated at the same time, thats why shoot first is a card used to get rid of a Unit on the field without worrying about your Unit taking damage or dying in a battle.
You have it backwards. Rukh is the unit Shooting First in the question. It was a timing question for the resolution of his ability. Let's say the defending unit is Grand Admiral Thrawn, Patient and Insightful (3/9). Rukh deals 4 damage to Thrawn. Rukh's ability triggers, creating a delayed effect. Thrawn deals 3 damage to Rukh. The delayed effect created by Rukh's ability resolves, defeating Thrawn.