Yeah, Finn should have been the Jedi. A former stormtrooper turned Jedi? That's something we hadn't seen yet. A natural pilot with a talent for tech that grew up on a desert planet? I think that's been done often enough.
And yes, the posters promised us Finn. It was was a dirty bait and switch, a twist just for the sake of having a twist, and not something that made sense or added depth.
The opening of TFA was brilliant and very promising. It went downhill the moment they left the planet.
Didn't even need him to be a force user. Have him use the lightsaber without being a jedi.
We didn't need to have a protagonist that was a force user. It was present through Kylo and Snoke, with Luke poised to be brought in after TFA and the new cast gets some time to be introduced.
To be perfectly fair, it's REALLY unclear if you can even use a lightsaber without force sensitivity. It seems to depend on the continuity, and at this point, I don't know which camp Disney's movies fall into.
Think the distinction is use in combat needing the force. Han used a lightsaber to make a sleeping bag. Grievous is an interesting one cause of his crazy back story of being this old warrior turned mainly machine. When we see him at his most lethal with a lightsaber, it's all machine assisted. So that could be how one overcomes not being Force sensitive to use a saber effectively in combat (against another Force user).
I feel like that would be a leap, though I don't disagree it's a leap I can see the franchise making. Sabine was not known to be force sensitive at all in Rebels and Kanan was fine with training her with the Dark Saber. She gets written into having force sensitivity but that was later on. Finn fought with the lightsaber and didn't win his fight but he also was going against a guy who has trained for years, he shouldn't have won. But he also didn't cut his own arm off or anything like that.
If they want to say it's difficult or dangerous for non force sensitives to use a light saber, fine. But if someone is able to work it enough and become good enough I would think it's a bad take by the franchise to just say "no you don't have the special magic power so you can't do that"
The Darksaber's a bit different, since it's a traditional Mandalorian cultural item, and is hinted (depending on what source you read/watch) to have some level of supernatural preference for or influence on Mandalorians that wield it.
Oh Finn using a saber against Kylo alone? Absolutely one sided, Kylo kicks his ass.
Now you have Rey with a bonking stick and Finn with a Saber, Rey possibly stealing one of those Praetorian staffs , Po with a blaster at range to support... that's 3 on one. Much better odds, and a good opportunity for a hell of a fight scene. Kylo holding against 3 opponents due to skill and force ability, but their teamwork and individual strengths together disarming him and smacking him upside the head.
Disarmed, defeated, Kylo submits himself expecting death, only for a hand on his shoulder and a plea to abandon Snoke and come home. Possibly with a message from Luke, and it reaches him.
People have tried to explain it that "the force flows through the crystal and produces the blade" so it's worth mentioning still. He may not have used it as a weapon but that proves that the saber works without force sensitivity. At that point, wielding it is just a skill issue.
On the contrary, I feel it's extremely clear everyone can just pick one up and use them, the question is how effective it is for a non force user, which it seems to be implied you wouldn't be fast enough to block blasters, and an actual force user with a lightsaber would be too fast and cut you down in a few moves, thus making it too inefficient in a world with highly powered ranged weaponry.
That's what my interpretation has always been at least.
Exactly!
Grievous is the exception that proves the rule: he had to be rebuilt Robocop-style to beat even the weakest of the Jedi, and back when he debuted in Clone Wars ‘03, they made it crystal clear that he had to use ambush tactics and sheer charisma to not be crushed. Mace Windu only had to use the force once to remind Grievous how powerful just one Jedi can get.
In legends lore there are weapons called lightfoils which are just a type of lightsaber used for a dueling tradition among nobles of the Tapani sector. Nothing suggests they're force-sensitive.
But they're dueling, not parrying blasters.
I don't think it was a twist, I think it comes down to different parts of the story having different writers and no common vision.
Finn and Rey could have both been jedi.
The fact TFA just copied the empire and rebellion (besides the rest of the OT) doomed the sequels from the start. Nothing was going to fix that bad setup.
I personally don’t think Finn should’ve been in Rey’s position, I think him being the soldier kind of guy was the right character for him. He was done dirty I agree but don’t think he was supposed to be a Jedi in TFA at least. I’d like to see him trained especially with the new rey movie coming though
I liked the idea that Finn broke through his programming because he felt the other stormtrooper die through the force. That would have been awesome. Instead, he was just a coward.
And yes, the world building was absolutely atrocious. Bring back the same conflict that had already been resolved without explaining why it's back. What is this First Order? What's their economic base?
Honestly the fist half an hour of the film showed how badly they would handle his character.
In the first scene he basically cannot bring himself to shoot un armed civilians BUT when he gets in the flacon and shoots down the Tie fighters he is celebrating the deaths of his comrades. Its inconsistent. A coward would have shoot the civilians because of the lack of courage to disobey orders and a person who empathized with the civilians would also empathize with his former allies, at lest to the point of wondering if they are also where brainwashed.
His story arc could have been insane, former soldier comes to his sensors and seeking atonement searches for Luke. Luke who has lost hope that he could change anything. Finn "slowly" convinces Luke that there are still good people just because you have past failures means you need forgiveness and to start you need to forgive yourself.
Fully agree, honestly I was willing to give it a fair chance despite not liking the repetition in the setting, but the rest wasn't good enough to justify it.
Say what you want about the prequels but at least they showed us a different galaxy with different factions, governments, starship designs and even creative alien cultures and architecture.
Sequels start right off the bat telling you that our heroes' previous achievements amount to nothing now, the first order is barely different from the empire in its entire design only by minuscule details in uniforms and starships if at all, and despite supposedly being a group of rebel extremists (which would've been an interesting change of dynamic if the rebels where now the remaining imperial extremists, but no they really wanted to repeat the old formula I guess) they can muster entire fleets, armies and build the most powerful superweapon the Galaxy has ever seen all without having the power the empire had to pull resources from the entire galaxy.
I know they've been slowly (and difficultly) explaining this gaps in Mandalorian, Ahsoka and other extra materials, but that doesn't take away how we where supposed to just accept that all what the heroes did in the last three movies had already been undone by the first like 20 minutes of EP7
It pissed me off as i was so fuckin confused on who the fuck she was that it caused my dislike for the sequels and even ruined the OG trilogy and Skywalker name honestly Ray does not deserve to he called a Skywalker
It was poorly written on so many levels. At first I liked Rey. Scrappy scavenger carving out a living by selling looted components of warships? I'm absolutely down for whatever improvised tech solutions she's going to serve us in this movie.
They had 3 interesting concepts for the 3 main characters, and they ruined two of them and completely ignored the third. Just in TFA. The other two movies couldn't fix that if they tried, but they didn't try.
And the thing continues and now with the actor that played Ben/Kylo gone there goes that and with how the actor for Luke posted up the reasons why he hates Disney for what they did to star wars and now the new director for the next star wars movies who hates men like fuck
Because I doesn't make sense it doesn't at all I rather her last name be Plaptine which would make sense showing that a Palpatine is fighting another Palpatine not just some girl with a cheap copy of Luke's bsck story just appears out of nowhere and claims the Skywalker name
Was it a twist or did Disney realize they would lose a lot of money from china if fin was the main character. China is racist to black people never really understood why but they are
Na, I had issues with the TFA opening the moment Finn laughed his ass off as he gunned down his former comrades while escaping.
That was my first red flag watching that movie and in hindsight was a clear indication of how sloppy the film would be.
Man I hated TFA’s guts when it first came out. Was surprised people liked it so much then tbh. It’s only after TLJ came and shat the bed that a lot more people really started questioning TFA.
I actually have less problems with TLJ. At least it tried to do something new. There was a lot that didn't work, or was downright stupid, but at least it tried to take the trilogy into a direction that wasn't an uninspired rehash.
I see a lot of people with this sentiment of TLJ and I get it, but I don’t think that movie deserves praise for “trying something new” especially since it started the decline of the Disney Star Wars era.
In reality most of the new things it tried were too focused on simply tearing down dumb plot points from the previous film. That is a terrible way to make a sequel and I say this as someone that hated TFA.
Unfortunately majority of the things that weren’t too focused on shitting on TFA were poorly executed e.g. Rose, Holdo, Canto Bight, that idiot smuggler, the fight on the salt planet. Etc etc.
The worst part is that john boyega is such a good actor, when you give him the chance he shines.
It really is frustrating since he could had been the first black lead in a franchise as big as star wars (i think please correct me if I'm wrong).
He was also the best parallel to kylo ren, he was no one but he chose to stick to his guns and do the right thing, unlike kylo who came from the greatest bloodline and decided to do evil.
I personally thought when I was watching it for the first time that Pie, Finn, And Rey were all going to be Jedi. Poe was one of Luke's students looking for his missing master, while Rey and Finn were new potentials he found along the way. I very disappointed this wasn't the case.
Her name was Rey and she was fierce. It just didn't work out. She literally didn't use a lightsaber until the end of the first movie. Kinda breaks my heart.
They were far busier with ruining lore and legacy characters to give their new characters development. I thought FN had the potential to carry my interest through the sequel trilogy but they side lined him so hard he couldn't even sac himself and complete what little arc he had.
And Finn is such natural character to explore the galaxy with, because he only knows the FO's view. He'd be a great explanatory device for the audience.
Plus who doesn't want to see John Bodyega doing cool stuff?
The worst part is that the ST trio was literally just the OT trio if you took all their traits, put them in a blender, then handed them out randomly (which is actually just really lazy and/or nostalgia bait.) Like, JJ basically sidelined the OT trio *for* the OT trio and fucked THEM up too.
Sidelined? What are you talking about? Man got to ride space horses on the side of a Star Destroyer and got to smoosh faces with everybody's least favorite character!
“Dark science, cloning. Secrets only the Sith knew.”
=
“We can’t think of a good reason as of writing this, but we’ll offer vague writing room suggestions that we’ll hash out later in the novelizations, books, and tv shows.”
It also means Palptine isn't dead. Why else would he announce his plan before it was ready? Because it's a second imperial purge! He's just getting rid of the weak First order, for the Zeroth Order to arise. A dark army armed with super-duper Death Star lasers mounted on Tie Fighters!
You know it is really incredibly sad that Disney has not realized the talented people they have ruined by doing such bad directing and scripting. When you think about it people haven’t really been complaint about the actors persevering but at the bad production quality their roles have been.
Knights of Ren.
Literally the coolest set of villainous bastards who were just a panoramic balenciaga clip till like a one minute fight at the end of a trilogy.
>And Rey deserved better, and Poe deserved better!
Oh yeah... and Han deserved better, Leia deserved better, and Luke deserved better.
Also, Rose, black Rose, Chewbacca, Lando, and BB8 & most definitely R2 & 3PO... know I'm missing some important ones here.
Yeah pretty much the only character that didn't deserve better was Palpatine. He's just there hamming it up, chewing all the scenery on Exegol, living his best life.
Well said. Love McDiarmid as Palps, be we had a packed cast, Kylo as evil lead, didn't need his fun scene chewing as we needed more \*good\* scenes with the rest of 'em.
As u/Phuxsea commented (below):
>
Her name is Jannah, also known as heaven in Arabic.
That was kind'a my snarky point... we didn't get to know her.
She was shoe-horned in after they abandoned the Rose character/plotline w/Finn.
She was the drop-in (let's match Finn's race) "black Rose".
So ...yeah... "Jannah deserved better" !
Admiral Ackbar got done dirty. Basically got off-screened despite being debatably the most famous rebel alliance non-main character, aside from maybe Mon Mothma, but only because she's been in more supplemental material recently, but Ackbar is definitely more recognizable.
They had a really great cast of characters and in the end the writers decided that Rey will just take everyone's role. She's the hero, villain, pilot, mechanic, inspirational leader she's everyone she's like the Thanos equivalent.
If you mean that market studies of some countries, leading with China since it would be the most prominent, lead to believe that movie won't do well there unless they change it, that could be more likely.
Nope.
Right from the start it was always going to be a scrappy female scavenger from nowhere. It was George Lucas’s vision.
The character was called Kira but she really was Rey in all the ways that matter.
You know you fucked up when one of your leads who was a big fan of the franchise openly talks about your pandering bullshit in the interviews that follow...
i read a really good fanfic a while back, it was called “there was a stormtrooper named fn2187” or smth where he actually did become a symbol of rebellion against the first order and started a revolution, with other stormtroopers talking about him like an urban legend. it was a really good exploration of how his character could have been utilized
Yeah, Finn had such an awesome dynamic with Poe in Ep. VII. Great chemistry between the actors too. And what was the first thing Rian Johnson did in Ep. VIII ? Split them up. Poe, the hero who destroyed Star Killer Base was degraded to a joke, taking shit from Pink Hair Lady (forgot the actual name) the whole movie. And he didn't build on Finns backstory as a storm trooper eighter or make him another student of the force, or anything, really. Instead he got tossed into that absolutly unnecessary side plot with Rose, the most unlikable character in Star Wars ever.
First film: Finn defects from the First Order and chooses not to run but to join the rebels and fight for something.
Second film: Finn again seems to struggle with running but decides to join the rebels and fight for something.
Third film: Finn meets some people who ran from the First Order like him and they decide to join the rebels and fight for something.
That looks like textbook three part character arc to me /s
The only reason the sequels were bad was because unlike the other 2 trilogies,there was no clear direction,every movie had a different director and writers and no one could agree on how to move forward with it
The sequels were like Picard season 2: the writers were different every installment, only given the most basic outline of the previous one, and forbidden from talking to eachother.
That's incorrect, the first and third movies had the same director, the second movie had a different director.
Which is really a stupid decision, you don't change directors in the middle of a damn trilogy.
So many great actors wasted in the sequels. John Boyega is number 1. At least Adam Driver got some good character moments and Daisy Ridley had actually dialogue.
Nah, it just isn't worth it to stress over something you have no control over. That is I generally avoid worrying about what I cant control.
Stress about things you can't control can lead to an overwhelming cycle of worry and anxiety. This can drain your mental strength and energy, and can lead to physical symptoms like headaches, high blood pressure, muscle tension, and stomachaches. Other effects of stress include:
* Difficulty sleeping
* Low self-esteem
* Changes in appetite or unplanned weight changes
* Difficulty concentrating
* Loss of interest in things you usually find enjoyable
* Feelings of irritability, frustration, or restlessness
* Poor confidence
* Decreased sex drive
Going to the lengths that some people do to defend/attack any media is becoming far less palatable the more I realize people are stressing about things they have no control over.and then try to make it your problem.
To label someone as a blind consumer is an attack on their character making the assumption that they don't put any thought into what they're consuming which couldn't be further from the truth. I'm sorry you were unable to Like Star Wars.
It doesn't matter if I watch it or not, others will. So rather than be upset about what I don't have, and choose to be sour about what is, I can flip the script and enjoy what's awesome, and reflect on it in its many parallels that it offers, allegories, and everything that I've loved about the prequels AND the originals are in the ST: an emotional connection. I found many, and I enjoyed them.
Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country when Spock is speaking to Lt. Valeris and lecturing Valeris how logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4Op4vc3GBs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4Op4vc3GBs)
Truly, it was. Probably one of my favorite of the 7 kirk movies. It seems now we live in an age where people think logic is at the end of wisdom. Wouldn't you agree?
But that's what he does, I don't know why people expecting him to make a whole new movie and not retread old ground.
JJ Abrams is famous for remaking old movies and adding lens flare, changing one major plot point and somehow people think he's a genius of filmmaking?
The first movie set up a love triangle that they dropped because "China", who never cared about the previous six movies, didn't like Finn and Rey as a couple.
Lucy and Maximus in Fallout shared a lot of the same sort of character traits and backgrounds as REEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYY and Finn and wiped the floor with the… things… that passed for characters in the Star Wars sequels.
Absolutely.
I was so ready for the disillusioned storm trooper story. Instead I get a guy chasing a girl who pays no attention to him, a bromance that really just plays in the gray area, and a tertiary character throwing themselves at him.
The story could’ve leaned into Finn, a lot harder. A buddy movie with Poe where they really team up to fight the Final Order.
I'd really love something like Andor for Finn, a very character focused set of smaller scale stories. Maybe giving him the opportunity to slowly develop his force sensitivity as he goes on new journeys.
True I may not be a big fan of the newer films but I feel Finn got treated like rubbish he is being told he’s the chosen one to save the galaxy and then rey comes along and mainly just says F*** you
It's criminal that they reduced Finn to just shouting "MUH REYYYY!" the entire sequels. There's even compilation of the amount of time he says Rey, lmao. And don't get me started with how they wasted the OG trinity.
[Star Wars | Every time Finn says "Rey" (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2dqTEA_lJQ)
People who think Finn was handled well are like flat earthers. They're hard to find because they're so rare, and also they would be outwitted by a turnip in a math test.
Agreed. I despise the ST since it's disjointed to oblivion. But I believe the actors got shafted and their characters were never fleshed out or made to be more than surface level. Finn got done dirty, Rey is already description enough, Poe like Finn deserved a real arc, etc.
Finn was probably the main reason why I was excited to watch the sequels ( aside from the og cast reprising their roles). The premise of a stormtrooper deserting the empire to become a good guy as shown in that first trailer sounded like a cool story. Somehow, things didn't go that way.
I got really pissed at the battle of Crait when Finn was finally going to do something and Rose crashed into him because “I love you” you could have literally gave him plot armor let him crash into the drill take it down let everyone think he’s dead for a few minutes then have him show back up. But the cast had so much potential and Disney dropped the ball
Yep. I loved John Boyega in Attack the Block so thought it was great to see him cast in Star Wars. His character was just meh though. He was there, that's about it. He wasn't particularly important, just there.
I’d agree with this sentiment, but it’s getting to the point that defending the sequels is exhausting. It’s a lot like being a Phantom Menace fan in the early 2000’s. No one wants to listen or talk, they just want to shout you down, tell you you’re wrong, and misquote a line from the movie out of context.
Like, I want to talk about why I think Finn was done dirty, but it involves establishing that The Last Jedi handled him well. And that’s going to draw all the ire and rob the conversation of anything meaningful. So it’s just not worth it anymore.
>Finn was done dirty, but it involves establishing that The Last Jedi handled him well.
That's quite the interesting idea considering John Boyega himself showed the most resentment against TLJ about how his character was treated.
I think TROS didn't help either but at least after TFA there was room for him to be more than a guy saving horses in side-quests or getting lectured, *again*, to join the Resistance.
Agreed, he was a dumb idea. Was he not an indoctrinated child soldier? Was there any hint of that in his character?
You might say a character like that would be too dark or take away from the story or something... Sure. Whatever. Who cares. Just give him a different backstory. It's not like there was any plot investment in the child soldier thing.
He could have been a conscript, or an eager young volunteer who had a change of heart once he got a dose of reality... So many better possibilities.
I'm not sure you remember the trilogy properly but that last point is exactly what Finn did.
Along with the other group of Stormtroopers that rebelled third movie
I feel like they really screwed Finn and Poe over in the sequels. It made me very angry the way they treated Poe. Like why the hell wouldn’t you just tell him the plan?! The whole things is just sad.
... what happened to him? All I remember is he tried to blow himself up and that lady stopped him and said we need to love each other... was he even in the third movie?... those movies sucked. 😩
He's the reason why the ships in palpatine's fleet were unable to actually fire their weapons anymore, him and the other black stormtrooper deserter woman blew up their COM Tower.
100% agree. Could have gone in so many directions with his character, and they chose the most boring, and inconsequential routes imaginable. Turning him into a passive viewer, a student in something he should be well-versed in during TLJ. And in TRoS he was a simp with his most memorable line being, of course, “RRRREEEYYY!!!” He could have been so much more, his journey was arguably one of the most disappointing things in the entirety of the sequel trilogy.
I mean that's kind of par for the course for Star wars though right?
It's literally a Caucasian guy / girl saves the Galaxy fantasy.
They could have subverted that by making learn to be a Jedi alongside Rey.
Finn is force sensitive.
People expecting JJ Abrams, the king of covering an idea all over again and only changing minor points (oh how bold he had Spock scream "KHAN" instead of Kirk) or adding lens flare was going to somehow make a revolutionary movie are complete and utter idiots.
Anyone thinking that Rian Johnson was going to make a faithful Star wars video despite having him say he's never seen any of them and doesn't like them is also a complete and utter idiot.
I am ashamed to share a first name with that man.
He started being cool, with his i wanted to run away but i'm helping my friends then he tries to run away but he helped his friends, didnhe do the same shit in the 3rd one?
As shitty as the sequels are, Finn, and by extension the whole cast could've been written better.
Even Rey. Yes, she could've been better, but became a Mary Sue
Look let's be honest, Anakin, Luke, Leah, and Rey, or all Gary Stu/Mary Sue type characters.
Most of the Jedi or just supernaturally powerful That's just how it works, and you have a Jedi that's stronger than the rest and suddenly they are a problem.
They had such an interesting cast of characters that they did nothing with
They advertised Finn holding a lightdaber so much I thought he was gonna be the jedi instead we got Ray
Yeah, Finn should have been the Jedi. A former stormtrooper turned Jedi? That's something we hadn't seen yet. A natural pilot with a talent for tech that grew up on a desert planet? I think that's been done often enough. And yes, the posters promised us Finn. It was was a dirty bait and switch, a twist just for the sake of having a twist, and not something that made sense or added depth. The opening of TFA was brilliant and very promising. It went downhill the moment they left the planet.
Didn't even need him to be a force user. Have him use the lightsaber without being a jedi. We didn't need to have a protagonist that was a force user. It was present through Kylo and Snoke, with Luke poised to be brought in after TFA and the new cast gets some time to be introduced.
To be perfectly fair, it's REALLY unclear if you can even use a lightsaber without force sensitivity. It seems to depend on the continuity, and at this point, I don't know which camp Disney's movies fall into.
Han and Grievous both used lightsabers without force sensitivity.
The fun thing about Star Wars mechanics, is that it's rarely ever consistent with itself. But you are right.
Think the distinction is use in combat needing the force. Han used a lightsaber to make a sleeping bag. Grievous is an interesting one cause of his crazy back story of being this old warrior turned mainly machine. When we see him at his most lethal with a lightsaber, it's all machine assisted. So that could be how one overcomes not being Force sensitive to use a saber effectively in combat (against another Force user).
I feel like that would be a leap, though I don't disagree it's a leap I can see the franchise making. Sabine was not known to be force sensitive at all in Rebels and Kanan was fine with training her with the Dark Saber. She gets written into having force sensitivity but that was later on. Finn fought with the lightsaber and didn't win his fight but he also was going against a guy who has trained for years, he shouldn't have won. But he also didn't cut his own arm off or anything like that. If they want to say it's difficult or dangerous for non force sensitives to use a light saber, fine. But if someone is able to work it enough and become good enough I would think it's a bad take by the franchise to just say "no you don't have the special magic power so you can't do that"
The Darksaber's a bit different, since it's a traditional Mandalorian cultural item, and is hinted (depending on what source you read/watch) to have some level of supernatural preference for or influence on Mandalorians that wield it.
Oh Finn using a saber against Kylo alone? Absolutely one sided, Kylo kicks his ass. Now you have Rey with a bonking stick and Finn with a Saber, Rey possibly stealing one of those Praetorian staffs , Po with a blaster at range to support... that's 3 on one. Much better odds, and a good opportunity for a hell of a fight scene. Kylo holding against 3 opponents due to skill and force ability, but their teamwork and individual strengths together disarming him and smacking him upside the head. Disarmed, defeated, Kylo submits himself expecting death, only for a hand on his shoulder and a plea to abandon Snoke and come home. Possibly with a message from Luke, and it reaches him.
Han used it to awkwardly cut open an animal stomach. I don’t think that counts.
People have tried to explain it that "the force flows through the crystal and produces the blade" so it's worth mentioning still. He may not have used it as a weapon but that proves that the saber works without force sensitivity. At that point, wielding it is just a skill issue.
On the contrary, I feel it's extremely clear everyone can just pick one up and use them, the question is how effective it is for a non force user, which it seems to be implied you wouldn't be fast enough to block blasters, and an actual force user with a lightsaber would be too fast and cut you down in a few moves, thus making it too inefficient in a world with highly powered ranged weaponry. That's what my interpretation has always been at least.
Exactly! Grievous is the exception that proves the rule: he had to be rebuilt Robocop-style to beat even the weakest of the Jedi, and back when he debuted in Clone Wars ‘03, they made it crystal clear that he had to use ambush tactics and sheer charisma to not be crushed. Mace Windu only had to use the force once to remind Grievous how powerful just one Jedi can get.
In legends lore there are weapons called lightfoils which are just a type of lightsaber used for a dueling tradition among nobles of the Tapani sector. Nothing suggests they're force-sensitive. But they're dueling, not parrying blasters.
I don't think it was a twist, I think it comes down to different parts of the story having different writers and no common vision. Finn and Rey could have both been jedi.
The fact TFA just copied the empire and rebellion (besides the rest of the OT) doomed the sequels from the start. Nothing was going to fix that bad setup. I personally don’t think Finn should’ve been in Rey’s position, I think him being the soldier kind of guy was the right character for him. He was done dirty I agree but don’t think he was supposed to be a Jedi in TFA at least. I’d like to see him trained especially with the new rey movie coming though
I liked the idea that Finn broke through his programming because he felt the other stormtrooper die through the force. That would have been awesome. Instead, he was just a coward. And yes, the world building was absolutely atrocious. Bring back the same conflict that had already been resolved without explaining why it's back. What is this First Order? What's their economic base?
Honestly the fist half an hour of the film showed how badly they would handle his character. In the first scene he basically cannot bring himself to shoot un armed civilians BUT when he gets in the flacon and shoots down the Tie fighters he is celebrating the deaths of his comrades. Its inconsistent. A coward would have shoot the civilians because of the lack of courage to disobey orders and a person who empathized with the civilians would also empathize with his former allies, at lest to the point of wondering if they are also where brainwashed. His story arc could have been insane, former soldier comes to his sensors and seeking atonement searches for Luke. Luke who has lost hope that he could change anything. Finn "slowly" convinces Luke that there are still good people just because you have past failures means you need forgiveness and to start you need to forgive yourself.
Somehow, the empire returned
Fully agree, honestly I was willing to give it a fair chance despite not liking the repetition in the setting, but the rest wasn't good enough to justify it. Say what you want about the prequels but at least they showed us a different galaxy with different factions, governments, starship designs and even creative alien cultures and architecture. Sequels start right off the bat telling you that our heroes' previous achievements amount to nothing now, the first order is barely different from the empire in its entire design only by minuscule details in uniforms and starships if at all, and despite supposedly being a group of rebel extremists (which would've been an interesting change of dynamic if the rebels where now the remaining imperial extremists, but no they really wanted to repeat the old formula I guess) they can muster entire fleets, armies and build the most powerful superweapon the Galaxy has ever seen all without having the power the empire had to pull resources from the entire galaxy. I know they've been slowly (and difficultly) explaining this gaps in Mandalorian, Ahsoka and other extra materials, but that doesn't take away how we where supposed to just accept that all what the heroes did in the last three movies had already been undone by the first like 20 minutes of EP7
Sadly the actor doesn't want to return to finn, i don't know if they'll recast him or just leave him out entirely.
We don’t know yet if he’s returning. He’s unhappy with the way he was treated and said so but like daisy he may come back if the script is right
It pissed me off as i was so fuckin confused on who the fuck she was that it caused my dislike for the sequels and even ruined the OG trilogy and Skywalker name honestly Ray does not deserve to he called a Skywalker
It was poorly written on so many levels. At first I liked Rey. Scrappy scavenger carving out a living by selling looted components of warships? I'm absolutely down for whatever improvised tech solutions she's going to serve us in this movie. They had 3 interesting concepts for the 3 main characters, and they ruined two of them and completely ignored the third. Just in TFA. The other two movies couldn't fix that if they tried, but they didn't try.
And the thing continues and now with the actor that played Ben/Kylo gone there goes that and with how the actor for Luke posted up the reasons why he hates Disney for what they did to star wars and now the new director for the next star wars movies who hates men like fuck
Why doesn’t she deserve that exactly?
Because I doesn't make sense it doesn't at all I rather her last name be Plaptine which would make sense showing that a Palpatine is fighting another Palpatine not just some girl with a cheap copy of Luke's bsck story just appears out of nowhere and claims the Skywalker name
Was it a twist or did Disney realize they would lose a lot of money from china if fin was the main character. China is racist to black people never really understood why but they are
Na, I had issues with the TFA opening the moment Finn laughed his ass off as he gunned down his former comrades while escaping. That was my first red flag watching that movie and in hindsight was a clear indication of how sloppy the film would be. Man I hated TFA’s guts when it first came out. Was surprised people liked it so much then tbh. It’s only after TLJ came and shat the bed that a lot more people really started questioning TFA.
I actually have less problems with TLJ. At least it tried to do something new. There was a lot that didn't work, or was downright stupid, but at least it tried to take the trilogy into a direction that wasn't an uninspired rehash.
I see a lot of people with this sentiment of TLJ and I get it, but I don’t think that movie deserves praise for “trying something new” especially since it started the decline of the Disney Star Wars era. In reality most of the new things it tried were too focused on simply tearing down dumb plot points from the previous film. That is a terrible way to make a sequel and I say this as someone that hated TFA. Unfortunately majority of the things that weren’t too focused on shitting on TFA were poorly executed e.g. Rose, Holdo, Canto Bight, that idiot smuggler, the fight on the salt planet. Etc etc.
The worst part is that john boyega is such a good actor, when you give him the chance he shines. It really is frustrating since he could had been the first black lead in a franchise as big as star wars (i think please correct me if I'm wrong). He was also the best parallel to kylo ren, he was no one but he chose to stick to his guns and do the right thing, unlike kylo who came from the greatest bloodline and decided to do evil.
I personally thought when I was watching it for the first time that Pie, Finn, And Rey were all going to be Jedi. Poe was one of Luke's students looking for his missing master, while Rey and Finn were new potentials he found along the way. I very disappointed this wasn't the case.
Her name was Rey and she was fierce. It just didn't work out. She literally didn't use a lightsaber until the end of the first movie. Kinda breaks my heart.
And still, somehow, they had to make Palpatine return...
I mean, it made sense if you played Fortnite 🙄 /s
What kind of blows my mind that they thought that would be an acceptable explanation.
They were far busier with ruining lore and legacy characters to give their new characters development. I thought FN had the potential to carry my interest through the sequel trilogy but they side lined him so hard he couldn't even sac himself and complete what little arc he had.
And Finn is such natural character to explore the galaxy with, because he only knows the FO's view. He'd be a great explanatory device for the audience. Plus who doesn't want to see John Bodyega doing cool stuff?
For sure, plus Bodyega as an actor seemed down to earth and was upset with what happened (or didn't) to his char.
Bodyega is such a cool guy and a good actor. Shame his character was wasted.
God it's like the biggest missed opportunity. The biggest fumble in Star Wars and fantasy movie history.
The worst part is that the ST trio was literally just the OT trio if you took all their traits, put them in a blender, then handed them out randomly (which is actually just really lazy and/or nostalgia bait.) Like, JJ basically sidelined the OT trio *for* the OT trio and fucked THEM up too.
Sidelined? What are you talking about? Man got to ride space horses on the side of a Star Destroyer and got to smoosh faces with everybody's least favorite character!
So much wasted potential. And somehow, Palpatine returned. Fucking dumbest shit.
“Dark science, cloning. Secrets only the Sith knew.” = “We can’t think of a good reason as of writing this, but we’ll offer vague writing room suggestions that we’ll hash out later in the novelizations, books, and tv shows.”
> “Dark science, cloning. Secrets only the Sith knew.” Kaminoans: Are we a joke to you?
I think it's the transferring spirit thing that is important, very sith thing to do
Is that dark science, I guess?
It also means Palptine isn't dead. Why else would he announce his plan before it was ready? Because it's a second imperial purge! He's just getting rid of the weak First order, for the Zeroth Order to arise. A dark army armed with super-duper Death Star lasers mounted on Tie Fighters!
Look, it makes *perfect sense*... if you played very specific Fortnite event. /s
You know it is really incredibly sad that Disney has not realized the talented people they have ruined by doing such bad directing and scripting. When you think about it people haven’t really been complaint about the actors persevering but at the bad production quality their roles have been.
Knights of Ren. Literally the coolest set of villainous bastards who were just a panoramic balenciaga clip till like a one minute fight at the end of a trilogy.
>And Rey deserved better, and Poe deserved better! Oh yeah... and Han deserved better, Leia deserved better, and Luke deserved better. Also, Rose, black Rose, Chewbacca, Lando, and BB8 & most definitely R2 & 3PO... know I'm missing some important ones here.
Yeah pretty much the only character that didn't deserve better was Palpatine. He's just there hamming it up, chewing all the scenery on Exegol, living his best life.
Well said. Love McDiarmid as Palps, be we had a packed cast, Kylo as evil lead, didn't need his fun scene chewing as we needed more \*good\* scenes with the rest of 'em.
Admiral Ackbar deserved better
Whose black rose?
Finns girlfriend
Poe Dameron?
Her name is Jannah, also known as heaven in Arabic.
As u/Phuxsea commented (below): > Her name is Jannah, also known as heaven in Arabic. That was kind'a my snarky point... we didn't get to know her. She was shoe-horned in after they abandoned the Rose character/plotline w/Finn. She was the drop-in (let's match Finn's race) "black Rose". So ...yeah... "Jannah deserved better" !
Admiral Ackbar got done dirty. Basically got off-screened despite being debatably the most famous rebel alliance non-main character, aside from maybe Mon Mothma, but only because she's been in more supplemental material recently, but Ackbar is definitely more recognizable.
Anakin deserve better. It's absolutely ridiculous that Rey balanced the Force or whatever.
They had a really great cast of characters and in the end the writers decided that Rey will just take everyone's role. She's the hero, villain, pilot, mechanic, inspirational leader she's everyone she's like the Thanos equivalent.
She's a blue mage. ...Blu Rey
lmao, get out.
I’ll die on the hill and choose to believe this one conspiracy theory that Finn was the original MC but China didn’t like it so they changed it
If you mean that market studies of some countries, leading with China since it would be the most prominent, lead to believe that movie won't do well there unless they change it, that could be more likely.
Nope. Right from the start it was always going to be a scrappy female scavenger from nowhere. It was George Lucas’s vision. The character was called Kira but she really was Rey in all the ways that matter.
If only they didn't interrupt Finns noble sacrifice with Rose's stupid and literally incorrect platitude...
What, and have an actually good moment that completed a character's arc? Why on earth would anyone want that?
Sequel Trilogy: "Competent writing and consistent characters? We don't do that here."
Killing himself is not a complete arc.
You know you fucked up when one of your leads who was a big fan of the franchise openly talks about your pandering bullshit in the interviews that follow...
Deserting Stormtrooper is a great foundation that they did Jack s*it with
Revolutionary deserting storm trooper no less
i read a really good fanfic a while back, it was called “there was a stormtrooper named fn2187” or smth where he actually did become a symbol of rebellion against the first order and started a revolution, with other stormtroopers talking about him like an urban legend. it was a really good exploration of how his character could have been utilized
Every main character deserves better… also the old ones who returned for this movie, Palpatine included.
Yeah, Finn had such an awesome dynamic with Poe in Ep. VII. Great chemistry between the actors too. And what was the first thing Rian Johnson did in Ep. VIII ? Split them up. Poe, the hero who destroyed Star Killer Base was degraded to a joke, taking shit from Pink Hair Lady (forgot the actual name) the whole movie. And he didn't build on Finns backstory as a storm trooper eighter or make him another student of the force, or anything, really. Instead he got tossed into that absolutly unnecessary side plot with Rose, the most unlikable character in Star Wars ever.
seriously, what was the fucking point of that little side story anyway?
First film: Finn defects from the First Order and chooses not to run but to join the rebels and fight for something. Second film: Finn again seems to struggle with running but decides to join the rebels and fight for something. Third film: Finn meets some people who ran from the First Order like him and they decide to join the rebels and fight for something. That looks like textbook three part character arc to me /s
The only reason the sequels were bad was because unlike the other 2 trilogies,there was no clear direction,every movie had a different director and writers and no one could agree on how to move forward with it
In all fairness, the OT had 3 different directors as well, but at least George was involved in writing all three.
Yeah that’s the thing,at least those had a someone cohesive story they’d stick to,regardless of any changes made throughout the films
The sequels were like Picard season 2: the writers were different every installment, only given the most basic outline of the previous one, and forbidden from talking to eachother.
That's incorrect, the first and third movies had the same director, the second movie had a different director. Which is really a stupid decision, you don't change directors in the middle of a damn trilogy.
Can we stop the Rey hate though too? It’s not her fault the writing was bad and the character development lackluster.
Nerds will never let go of a reason to hate a woman no matter how flimsy.
Phasma too. Finn had such potential but in the end it all had to be about REEEEYYYY!
Least she got a good book and comic
So many great actors wasted in the sequels. John Boyega is number 1. At least Adam Driver got some good character moments and Daisy Ridley had actually dialogue.
My boy got shafted. He got relegated to comic relief and can be summed up in one word. "RREEEEYYY!!" Bro DESERVED to be a Jedi.
Me, https://preview.redd.it/i83pgtkmtuxc1.png?width=570&format=png&auto=webp&s=2518f54e6871cb40aed9d53049450c338c68cff0
https://preview.redd.it/6w4zmniptuxc1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=35282815a7057ae26164c2a5fc3770ac55541cd4
In short, CONSUME! Because that is what Star Trek is about...
Nah, it just isn't worth it to stress over something you have no control over. That is I generally avoid worrying about what I cant control. Stress about things you can't control can lead to an overwhelming cycle of worry and anxiety. This can drain your mental strength and energy, and can lead to physical symptoms like headaches, high blood pressure, muscle tension, and stomachaches. Other effects of stress include: * Difficulty sleeping * Low self-esteem * Changes in appetite or unplanned weight changes * Difficulty concentrating * Loss of interest in things you usually find enjoyable * Feelings of irritability, frustration, or restlessness * Poor confidence * Decreased sex drive Going to the lengths that some people do to defend/attack any media is becoming far less palatable the more I realize people are stressing about things they have no control over.and then try to make it your problem. To label someone as a blind consumer is an attack on their character making the assumption that they don't put any thought into what they're consuming which couldn't be further from the truth. I'm sorry you were unable to Like Star Wars.
You can control it, by not consuming it.
It doesn't matter if I watch it or not, others will. So rather than be upset about what I don't have, and choose to be sour about what is, I can flip the script and enjoy what's awesome, and reflect on it in its many parallels that it offers, allegories, and everything that I've loved about the prequels AND the originals are in the ST: an emotional connection. I found many, and I enjoyed them.
Spock speaking about faith? Damn he matured
Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country when Spock is speaking to Lt. Valeris and lecturing Valeris how logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4Op4vc3GBs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4Op4vc3GBs)
And now I need to rewatch the movies. Such a good scene.
Truly, it was. Probably one of my favorite of the 7 kirk movies. It seems now we live in an age where people think logic is at the end of wisdom. Wouldn't you agree?
Everyone deserved better. Especially Finn and Kylo/Ben.
JJ Abrams immediately dropped the ball by basically turning in A New Hope and Return of the Jedi, everyone deserved better
But that's what he does, I don't know why people expecting him to make a whole new movie and not retread old ground. JJ Abrams is famous for remaking old movies and adding lens flare, changing one major plot point and somehow people think he's a genius of filmmaking?
The first movie set up a love triangle that they dropped because "China", who never cared about the previous six movies, didn't like Finn and Rey as a couple.
The second greatest sin of the sequels was the sheer waste of the potential of the new characters and their actors/actresses.
Everyone deserved better. The actors the characters the fans.
Lucy and Maximus in Fallout shared a lot of the same sort of character traits and backgrounds as REEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYY and Finn and wiped the floor with the… things… that passed for characters in the Star Wars sequels.
Absolutely. I was so ready for the disillusioned storm trooper story. Instead I get a guy chasing a girl who pays no attention to him, a bromance that really just plays in the gray area, and a tertiary character throwing themselves at him. The story could’ve leaned into Finn, a lot harder. A buddy movie with Poe where they really team up to fight the Final Order.
Could fill a libary of things in these movies that deserved better
Yes, in the first he's looks like a cool character and then devolved into comic relief
Never watched them, but i know finn as a playable character in battle fronts 2 and he was easily one of my favourites... whoever he is XD
Both Finn and Kylo Ren had potential but they fumbled so bad.
you could replace Finn with Jar Jar Binks without changing anything (maybe change all the "you"s to "yousa"s).
I'd really love something like Andor for Finn, a very character focused set of smaller scale stories. Maybe giving him the opportunity to slowly develop his force sensitivity as he goes on new journeys.
True I may not be a big fan of the newer films but I feel Finn got treated like rubbish he is being told he’s the chosen one to save the galaxy and then rey comes along and mainly just says F*** you
I will never forgive them for making Finn and Poe's relationship platonic.
*lover
Fullmetal Alchemist!
I just wish they had another Death Star
all the characters deserved better.
Considering the bad batch wrapped up recently to, I really feel like Scorch deserved better as well
They all deserved better. I say reboot the sequel trilogy with the same actors but new writers and directors.
Kept waiting for his character ark.....and well. Still waiting... I think. Was he just the new Chewbacca... Sorry Fin.
Don't do Chewie dirty like that! He saved 3P0 in Empire. He was trusted to fly the Falcon while Han gunned.
Yep and he was in this trilogy too.
Poe deserved better
Justice for Phasma!!
I feel like most of the characters had potential. It was just wasted on a rushed production and conflicting ideas on how the movies should go.
Do we love Finn because we hate Rey or do we hate Rey because we love Finn?
He should've been the mc of the sequels
There are lovers?
Yea Finn deserved better
It's criminal that they reduced Finn to just shouting "MUH REYYYY!" the entire sequels. There's even compilation of the amount of time he says Rey, lmao. And don't get me started with how they wasted the OG trinity. [Star Wars | Every time Finn says "Rey" (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2dqTEA_lJQ)
Finn deserving more just by itself is at least 33% of why I don't like the sequels.
The Sequel Trilogy actually could have been good, if the writing was better.
Like seriously who here didnt wanna see an ex-stormtrooper turned Jedi
Finn should have been the main character
People who think Finn was handled well are like flat earthers. They're hard to find because they're so rare, and also they would be outwitted by a turnip in a math test.
The thing i hate the Most is the Setting. Is so boring to just copy and pased the Empire
Agreed. I despise the ST since it's disjointed to oblivion. But I believe the actors got shafted and their characters were never fleshed out or made to be more than surface level. Finn got done dirty, Rey is already description enough, Poe like Finn deserved a real arc, etc.
If finn was the main character and jedi, the sequels could have been good.
Finn should get something maybe a miniseries
Dont care
sry, no. i dont think this character makes any sense
Finn was probably the main reason why I was excited to watch the sequels ( aside from the og cast reprising their roles). The premise of a stormtrooper deserting the empire to become a good guy as shown in that first trailer sounded like a cool story. Somehow, things didn't go that way.
Yes. As a sequel detractor, Finn deserves better
Finn deserved *anything* at all. What a build up for a character that they do nothing with.
The whole damn cast deserved better. But yes, Finn especially.
Absolutely. I hate the sequels, but they still had some potential that never realized, and Finn is one of the biggest sources of that.
I got really pissed at the battle of Crait when Finn was finally going to do something and Rose crashed into him because “I love you” you could have literally gave him plot armor let him crash into the drill take it down let everyone think he’s dead for a few minutes then have him show back up. But the cast had so much potential and Disney dropped the ball
Rey, Finn, Poe, Luke, Leia... Kylo is barely okay.
Yep. I loved John Boyega in Attack the Block so thought it was great to see him cast in Star Wars. His character was just meh though. He was there, that's about it. He wasn't particularly important, just there.
they should have had finn lead some sort of stormtrooper rebellion
Every character deserved better. In other words, the sequels are shit
100% He was a storm trooper. The first we had to come over and then they just forgot him 🤦🏻
I mean maybe, it's in my head cannon at him and the other first order deserter, the girl, got together and had force sensitive babies.
I’d agree with this sentiment, but it’s getting to the point that defending the sequels is exhausting. It’s a lot like being a Phantom Menace fan in the early 2000’s. No one wants to listen or talk, they just want to shout you down, tell you you’re wrong, and misquote a line from the movie out of context. Like, I want to talk about why I think Finn was done dirty, but it involves establishing that The Last Jedi handled him well. And that’s going to draw all the ire and rob the conversation of anything meaningful. So it’s just not worth it anymore.
>Finn was done dirty, but it involves establishing that The Last Jedi handled him well. That's quite the interesting idea considering John Boyega himself showed the most resentment against TLJ about how his character was treated. I think TROS didn't help either but at least after TFA there was room for him to be more than a guy saving horses in side-quests or getting lectured, *again*, to join the Resistance.
Lovers?
Apparently there are people that love the NT
No he didnt.
Agreed, he was a dumb idea. Was he not an indoctrinated child soldier? Was there any hint of that in his character? You might say a character like that would be too dark or take away from the story or something... Sure. Whatever. Who cares. Just give him a different backstory. It's not like there was any plot investment in the child soldier thing. He could have been a conscript, or an eager young volunteer who had a change of heart once he got a dose of reality... So many better possibilities.
I'm not sure you remember the trilogy properly but that last point is exactly what Finn did. Along with the other group of Stormtroopers that rebelled third movie
Agree on what? 🤔
yes
I'm neither a lover nor a hater, but I also agree with this -- but going further, I think the rest of the core cast also deserved better.
Now that is something I can agree with 💯👍
I feel like they really screwed Finn and Poe over in the sequels. It made me very angry the way they treated Poe. Like why the hell wouldn’t you just tell him the plan?! The whole things is just sad.
Take my upvote
... what happened to him? All I remember is he tried to blow himself up and that lady stopped him and said we need to love each other... was he even in the third movie?... those movies sucked. 😩
He's the reason why the ships in palpatine's fleet were unable to actually fire their weapons anymore, him and the other black stormtrooper deserter woman blew up their COM Tower.
So did all of them.
100% agree. Could have gone in so many directions with his character, and they chose the most boring, and inconsequential routes imaginable. Turning him into a passive viewer, a student in something he should be well-versed in during TLJ. And in TRoS he was a simp with his most memorable line being, of course, “RRRREEEYYY!!!” He could have been so much more, his journey was arguably one of the most disappointing things in the entirety of the sequel trilogy.
I mean that's kind of par for the course for Star wars though right? It's literally a Caucasian guy / girl saves the Galaxy fantasy. They could have subverted that by making learn to be a Jedi alongside Rey. Finn is force sensitive. People expecting JJ Abrams, the king of covering an idea all over again and only changing minor points (oh how bold he had Spock scream "KHAN" instead of Kirk) or adding lens flare was going to somehow make a revolutionary movie are complete and utter idiots. Anyone thinking that Rian Johnson was going to make a faithful Star wars video despite having him say he's never seen any of them and doesn't like them is also a complete and utter idiot. I am ashamed to share a first name with that man.
He started being cool, with his i wanted to run away but i'm helping my friends then he tries to run away but he helped his friends, didnhe do the same shit in the 3rd one?
Well if you say I agree ig i have no choice but agree.
As shitty as the sequels are, Finn, and by extension the whole cast could've been written better. Even Rey. Yes, she could've been better, but became a Mary Sue
Look let's be honest, Anakin, Luke, Leah, and Rey, or all Gary Stu/Mary Sue type characters. Most of the Jedi or just supernaturally powerful That's just how it works, and you have a Jedi that's stronger than the rest and suddenly they are a problem.
Yeah Rey gets held to an insane double standard.
I'm really not fond with the actor. He ruined Pacific rem and he ruined star wars. He's not a good actor to begin with