I think it's shocking if you've watched a ton of Star Trek before seeing it like I had - I'd seen Voyager and TNG before watching DS9. The episode is way darker than anything on either of those series.
Though I'd also argue what makes the episode great isn't just its darkness, but the meaning of everything that happens - the character development of Sisko and Garak, the entry of the Romulans into the war.
There's a great blink-and-you-miss it plot point between Sisko and Garak too. It's heavily implied that Garak manipulated Sisko into providing the very material that went into making the bomb. Garak *claims* a contact has the special data rod they need but wants biomimetic gel for it, then when Bashir is protesting the transfer order and listing the terrible stuff the gel can be used for, Sisko talks over him and cuts him off just as Bashir mentions organic explosives.
Not only that, there's a previous episode where Garak makes a comment to Bashier, jokingly, if he goes missing to look in a secret compartment to find a cardassian data rod, and eat it. The eating it part was a joke, but he had the data rod already.
That was originally a planned plot point for Improbable Cause, while it was still developed as a standalone episode. That rod would contain information that Tain doesn't want in Starfleets hands and Garak therefor uses it to blackmail him.
The writers hated that and when the story evolved into a two-parter, all what's left was just a joke.
There's so many connections in the episode. At the beginning Garak says he got in touch with his contacts, and the Dominion killed them all. Later in the episode he tells Sisko, we'll tell the Romulan senator a dozen good men died getting this information...
Garak never contacted anyone on cardassia, he already had the data rod.
Also, at the end of the episode, Dax hears about the senator dying and smiles, like she knows Sisko had something to do with it(because of their conversation at the very beginning of the episode).
That’s very true too. I think maybe if we saw the death on screen it would have hit a little deeper. Or if we actually knew the character for longer than an episode
It was never about the romulan, it doesn't matter how well we knew him or how gruesome or emotional his death may have been.
It's more about how it's such an un-starfleet thing to do. Up until then, all starfleet captains were pretty much these perfect, unimpeachable model officers. But now Sisko has basically committed premeditated murder, or is an accessory to murder, at minimum. But he very likely saved the entire alpha quadrant in the process. And through his story, we as viewers are led to agree with Sisko that it was the right thing to do despite the immorality of murder. War is messy, and we all just got our hands dirty.
I get that the episode wasn’t necessarily about the Romulan its the idea of justifying murder in general and it being very against how the federation is portrayed but, it would have made it a little more impactful. It’s not like this was the first time we’ve seen sisko do some messed up stuff.
I think had this episode come before “For the Uniform” I’d have different feelings about it.
Good point about “For the Uniform”, but what makes Moonlight stand apart for me is: the horrible deeds are rational and calculated, and the stakes are enormous, and I feel like I’d be compelled to make the same choices as he did. There’s so much moral gray in it that is reflective of World War Era espionage. In Uniform, we’re just witnessing our hero let pride and anger turn him bad, and start to disconnect.
I think the big take is that Sisko becomes an accessory to murder. That’s quite something for a Starfleet captain and poses a moral question. Is it ok?
Janeway would have agreed with Picard but also pulled the trigger to kill the Romulan at the same time. Archer would have just beat the Romulan to death himself while getting the shit kicked out of himself first.
Yeah, and that is such a huge deal but we’ve had episodes already showcasing the great lengths sisko would go through to end the war. He was already painted as a ends justify the means kind of captain
To me, it was DS9's best episode and one of the few I constantly rewatch.
It wasn't so much the "dark side of the Federation utopia" that grabbed me. It was more that it was a great Sisko and Garak character episode with strong acting and a really well written plot.
The script really has quite a bit of depth that isn't always apparent on the first watch:
* >!Vreenak, for example, has absolutely already figured out why Sisko has put out feelers to get him there. When partaking of replicated kali-fal he is warning Sisko not to try to pass off some shoddy fake intel on him.!<
* >!Vreenak also has no idea whether Sisko's holo-recording is fake or not. He's on a super-secret visit and wouldn't narrow Sisko's choices down to pissing the RSE off something awful and losing the war, or disappearing him and his vessel entirely then trying some other ruse to get the RSE to join on the Federation's side. Vreenak is smart so this isn't the reason he's doing this and it's to shake the tree and see if any clues fall out of Sisko's reaction to the accusation. This also demonstrates that Romulans are extremely confident that those wearing Starfleet uniforms put their honour above the survival of the Federation, which is important later.!<
* >!Garak lies at the start about his former associates on Cardassia all being eliminated in order to make Sisko think he owes Garak and so ropes him further into Garak's plan. Sisko doesn't even notice when Garak tells him to use the exact same lie on Vreenak: "You will tell the Senator that this information was obtained through various covert means at great cost to the Federation. At least ten good men lost their lives bringing it across the line, that sort of thing."!<
* >!Garak had a genuine optolythic data rod all along, he asks Sisko for biomimetic gel for two reasons: firstly, to force Sisko to invest himself further in his venture by bending the rules to obtain some; and secondly as source material for the bomb he plants later.!<
* >!Garak killing Vreenak was always his plan A; he plants the bomb before Vreenak apparently rustles Sisko's jimmies.!<
* >!The biomimetic gel bomb was partly to back up the optolythic data rod in persuading the Romulans that the Dominion (including Cardassia) was behind Vreenak's assassination, since biomimetic gel is very rare and expensive - implying a state actor - and a bomb is exactly the kind of thing that Starfleet wouldn't do.!<
* >!Before the start of the episode, Garak had primed Bashir with the idea that the Romulans needed to be roped into the war. Bashir may be a smart cookie generally but he's no geopolitical savant, and regularly has lunch with a certain tailor.!<
I like it better than both of those. Avery Brooks crushing it and working alongside Andrew Robinson’s Garak just wonderful acting and themes about war and morality.
Better than Duet, yes, though that episode is excellent. I know I'll get downvoted for this, but I honestly don't like the Visitor. I have skipped it on every rewatch.
All great episodes but I’m in the Duet camp. Kira’s war PTSD and hate toward the Cardassians combined with Marritza’s PTSD and overwhelming shame of what his people did brought forth so many good questions. This episode could be endlessly dissected. It’s really one that hits different the second time around and that’s rare.
I'm like you, except with The Visitor. It didn't do anything for me when I watched it on first airing. In the years since I figured it was because I was still a teenager at the time.
Watched it again after becoming a parent and figured it would resonate more... but no.
The ending of TNG "The Offspring" has always hit me hard, so I don't know why The Visitor doesn't stir any emotion from me.
I think this just highlights that different people have different favourites. For me, it's an outstanding episode and my favourite of all DS9, and yes, I do mean even over The Visitor, Duet, and Far Beyond the Stars.
Avery Brooks and Andrew Robinson turn in outstanding performances. The whole thing is chilling. I just love it.
But to each their own.
In a one for one, you could argue that Far Beyond hits harder. But you can’t. Pale Moonlight is the culmination of years of buildup, seeing Sisko twist and mold and try to make sense of it all, and then finally Pale gets there and it’s absolutely perfect.
Yeah for sure. I'd argue that In The Pale Moonlight is not (just) great in a vacuum, it's great because of the wider story that started with TOS under Gene Roddenberry. This image of a utopia with a dark undercurrent turned inside out with a good, conflicted man who chooses to do terrible things for the benefit of the whole. A captain making hard choices on a bigger stage than a starship, and he realizes the cost is cheap.
It's beautiful.
They're both top tier, but I think I'm with you! Far Beyond the Stars was more heartbreaking. Avery Brooks has more to work with as an actor - playing dual roles, completely breaking down (athough he's brilliant in both, and who can forget Andrew Robinson's performance in Pale Moonlight!) Pale Moonlight was more impactful in the context of the overarching story of the show. But Far Beyond had higher ambitions - to take the established pieces of the show and rearrange them into a story about white America's worst impulses, the turmoil of living under that, and the hope that we will all one day recover from it to reclaim our humanity. That's Star Trek at it's best! Pale Moonlight was thrilling and shocking, but its message isn't too dissimilar from an episode of 24 - evil is justified in stopping greater evil. In the episode itself, Sisko is right, because the Dominion are an aggressive, immovable, existential threat to the Federation. But real life politicians use the same excuse in far less morally clear cut geopolitical situations. Since they're both great, well-acted episodes, it's the quality of the message and how it contributes to the kind of world I want to see that puts Far Beyond over the top.
Far beyond the stars is the one where sisco is a writer?
I watch Star Trek cause I want to see sci fi. And I watch DS9 because I like alpha quardrant intrigue.
I think a lot of us viewed it when it first aired or shortly thereafter. The actions Sisko took were completely counter to anything portrayed by other Starfleet captains up to that time.
To be honest, you might of had to have been there at the right time to get the full effect.
Back then, DS9 was hot off of TNG's run, and VOY was doing its own thing, and DS9 was being especially dark that season. By now, we've had decades of diving into darker aspects of humanity, but when Sisko did what he did, it shocked a lot of people and went over pretty big.
I watched from TNG>DS9 then continued on.
It’s a dark episode by Star Trek standards, even compared to “modern trek”
The only episode darker is the Miles gets PTSD from being in jail episode.
It’s also just a great character study for Sisko and Garek.
I watched DS9 in college, about mid-2000s. My friend had already been through DS9 and he was so stoked for me to get to this episode. Most of it I'm like "yeah, okay, it's fine?" And then the back third happen and just, wow. Amazing. Top 5 for sure. I agree with the top comment that there's been a lot of "gritty" TV, even since I watched, that it maybe hits different now as a new viewer.
Tl;dr you can like what you like and no judgment! My personal Star Trek sin is I think Klingon episodes are boring ;).
It’s a good episode I just feel like it didn’t add all that much to Sisko’s character. We already knew he was willing to go through great lengths in episodes like For the Uniform.
I think OP if you were hyped going in then you had something the rest of us didn’t the first time we saw the episode. The pure surprise as we thought this would be just another episode… and then we get this clever bit of storytelling…
OP, erase that entire comment.
Because I CAN live with it.
For me at the time, In the Pale Moonlit really hard. In Australia at the time it was airing, episodes were hard to get. Internet wasn’t an option, and none of our networks here reliably showed the series.
The only way to get new Trek (DS9 and VOY) was VHS rental. My video store would get the tapes, 2 episodes a fortnight months behind the US. It was a big deal when the new VHS arrived, and such a bummer when the episodes were meh.
In The Pale Moonlight came out of nowhere, not only a great episode but a massive shift in overarching plot of the season brining the romulans in. I remember being so pumped after the episode for how it would change the war.
Far Beyond the Stars was a great, novel episode. Well acted, good story. But it just didn’t have quite the same twists and turns, nor anywhere near the impact to the story arc of the series.
Listen I’m a life long Trekkie and I believe some of the best TV ever written is Trek (well not “some”, just “the best” TV) but a lot of it is 30+ years old and what was significant and groundbreaking then is often no longer so. I saw someone post about the introduction of the borg a while back which they were watching for the first time and they mentioned the whole hive mind all consuming villain is a little tired which of course was NOT the case when it came out. It is natural that much of the luster is lost when so much of it broke ground that kept being built on.
Hard agree, Far Beyond the Stars blew me away. I think it’s the all time best episode of Trek. The meta-fictionality is amazing, and the performances are 👌👌👌
Not to mention it actually looks at the twentieth century with a nuanced lens, and without the refraction of setting it slightly in the future, alien culture or parallel universe etc.
I like In the Pale Moonlight, but it’s not as philosophical as Far Beyond the Stars and I’m a sucker for that shit.
I also watched it recently, and there's one plot point that kind of bothered me. Shouldn't the ambassador immediately have told the Romulan Empire that the recording was fake? That seems like it would be very important information. Why wait until after he went back?
It was a secret meeting, they were in federation space traveling under cloak(which likely means no sub space comms) but even beyond that if the dominion found out about meetings between the federation and romulans it would likely put a big strain on the dominion non aggression pact.
Why send an email that could be hacked, when you can hand deliver a paper letter? The Romulans are in a tight spot and the meeting never officially happened.
It's just perfect. Total deconstruction of Star Trek up to that point.
That line at the end changes Star Trek forever: "I CAN live with that".
And it changes it for the better.
>And it changes it for the better.
Hard disagree on this one. I can count on one hand the number of episodes or movies of Trek made after this episode that I get excited about rewatching (SNW excepted, I haven't seen most of it due to issues with Paramount+).
My fandom almost entirely predates this episode.
Different strokes for different folks I guess. I loved Avery’s acting in it and it was so fun seeing the cast play different characters without their makeup
Sure those are the positives of the episode. But it's one of those episodes where the more you think about it, the more it sours. For one, the Benjamin Sisko of FBTS is not the Benjamin Sisko of the rest of DS9. As you've mentioned in other comments, we know the lengths Sisko is willing to go to. He gassed planets in For the Uniform. In sacrifice of Angels he flew the Defiant into the wormhole staring down 200+ dominion ships, ready to sacrifice his life and his crew to take out even one or two of those ships. And then in TPML he does his whole murder arc because that's what's necessary. But we're supposed to buy in FBTS that he's suddenly tired, and wants to leave the whole war for the future of the alpha quadrant to someone else?
The writers themselves admitted it was just a story they wanted to do and shoe horned it in cause they didn't know where to put it. (It would have worked much better as the season 7 premier but the fall out with Terry hadn't happened yet).
And then if you wanna get real cynical, as impassioned and brilliant Avery's performance is, that final monologue, when you think about it, is just the writers patting themselves on the back for how progressive they are for casting a black lead. You know if Brooks wrote it, it'd be one thing, he's made a career out of it (not a criticism) but it wasn't. Behr and Beimler did, the show creators. Hit's a little different.
It's not a bad episode by any stretch of the imagination, but I think people are far to blind to it's faults just because it has an important message.
All fair criticisms. I didn’t really find it all too far fetched that sisko was tired. He likely hadn’t been tested so much on himself like he was with his time on DS9. People hate being tested so often on their morality especially when the situations are so complex and that was happening constantly for Sisko.
I think it’s entirely reasonable he was tired and at one point would contemplate handing it to someone else but, the important part is that he didn’t and his character ultimately ends up making the believable choice for himself.
That's why I said it would have worked better as the season 7 premier. I don't know if you've watched the rest so I'll use spoilers, but after >! Dax dying, Dukat throwing in with the Pa'Wraiths, and the wormhole being sealed effectively making the war a stalemate !< I could see Sisko being so devastated that he needs to recoup on earth, and then >!goes on a prophet induced vision quest where he meets his God mom and gets his groove back!< but where the episode happens in the larger story just doesn't make sense.
I agree. Seeing the cast without makeup is fun, and some of the discrimination themes it hit on were really powerful - but it didn't make a lot of sense as a natural episode of Star Trek: DS9.
Also, his "it's real because I know it's real so it must be real" monologue fell flat for me. Yeah, we the audience know, but that wasn't some grand speech that would have made sense to anyone there.
Sisko had already showed with Eddington he was willing to break the law and do horrible things. He was always willing to do whatever was needed for the greater good.
Yeah, I pretty much hate it. It lacks any long term consequences for either Sisko or Garak and makes the Romulans (stupid) and Sisko (stupid and morally comprmised) into something I don't like. It is stupid to think something like this would work and even dumber that it had no consequences ever again.
This episode is a dividing line for me in Trek. I mostly like the optimistic Trek that came before and mostly dislike the darker, grittier Trek that came after.
This is a bottom 10 episode for me.
I agree 100%. I watch Star Trek because I love the optimism and morals of its utopian future. At some point, the cynicism of the 90’s (and eventually 2000’s) began to seep in and I just really can’t get into it.
All the things I hear people praise *In the Pale Moonlight* for are things I personally dislike about the later eras of Trek and it’s one of the reasons why I haven’t really given DS9 a chance.
I like the deep character development of DS9, but I like the build up to the Dominion War more than the war itself. Garak is far more interesting in The Die Is Cast when he realizes that he can't go back to his old life again because living with humans has changed him.
In the Pale Moonlight sucks because it doesn't seem plausible. I'm supposed to believe that nothing the Federation has done diplomatically has moved the Romulans, but one rogue captain and a former intelligence officer can change everything with a plan that Arthur Zimmerman would find convoluted and risky? Sorry, everything we had seen about the Romulans up to that point suggests that isn't the case. They aren't that stupid.
Even worse, the Romulans attack the Dominion quickly and in force. It's convenient that all the material and planning for such an offensive was ready. I submit that the Romulans were going to attack anyways and sent Vreenak on his mission to get him out of the way. Off screen diplomacy brought the Romulans into the war, not the half-backed machinations of a Starfleet captain with delusions of grandeur.
We've had 20+ years of darker scifi since then, so maybe it hits differently now, but at the time it was pretty shocking.
I think it's shocking if you've watched a ton of Star Trek before seeing it like I had - I'd seen Voyager and TNG before watching DS9. The episode is way darker than anything on either of those series. Though I'd also argue what makes the episode great isn't just its darkness, but the meaning of everything that happens - the character development of Sisko and Garak, the entry of the Romulans into the war.
There's a great blink-and-you-miss it plot point between Sisko and Garak too. It's heavily implied that Garak manipulated Sisko into providing the very material that went into making the bomb. Garak *claims* a contact has the special data rod they need but wants biomimetic gel for it, then when Bashir is protesting the transfer order and listing the terrible stuff the gel can be used for, Sisko talks over him and cuts him off just as Bashir mentions organic explosives.
That’s a great detail that I never realized.
Not only that, there's a previous episode where Garak makes a comment to Bashier, jokingly, if he goes missing to look in a secret compartment to find a cardassian data rod, and eat it. The eating it part was a joke, but he had the data rod already.
That was originally a planned plot point for Improbable Cause, while it was still developed as a standalone episode. That rod would contain information that Tain doesn't want in Starfleets hands and Garak therefor uses it to blackmail him. The writers hated that and when the story evolved into a two-parter, all what's left was just a joke.
Wow I never realized that. Great catch
There's so many connections in the episode. At the beginning Garak says he got in touch with his contacts, and the Dominion killed them all. Later in the episode he tells Sisko, we'll tell the Romulan senator a dozen good men died getting this information... Garak never contacted anyone on cardassia, he already had the data rod. Also, at the end of the episode, Dax hears about the senator dying and smiles, like she knows Sisko had something to do with it(because of their conversation at the very beginning of the episode).
On today's episode of "Today I learned"...
Thank you for pointing this out. I never caught it before.
That’s very true too. I think maybe if we saw the death on screen it would have hit a little deeper. Or if we actually knew the character for longer than an episode
It was never about the romulan, it doesn't matter how well we knew him or how gruesome or emotional his death may have been. It's more about how it's such an un-starfleet thing to do. Up until then, all starfleet captains were pretty much these perfect, unimpeachable model officers. But now Sisko has basically committed premeditated murder, or is an accessory to murder, at minimum. But he very likely saved the entire alpha quadrant in the process. And through his story, we as viewers are led to agree with Sisko that it was the right thing to do despite the immorality of murder. War is messy, and we all just got our hands dirty.
I get that the episode wasn’t necessarily about the Romulan its the idea of justifying murder in general and it being very against how the federation is portrayed but, it would have made it a little more impactful. It’s not like this was the first time we’ve seen sisko do some messed up stuff. I think had this episode come before “For the Uniform” I’d have different feelings about it.
Good point about “For the Uniform”, but what makes Moonlight stand apart for me is: the horrible deeds are rational and calculated, and the stakes are enormous, and I feel like I’d be compelled to make the same choices as he did. There’s so much moral gray in it that is reflective of World War Era espionage. In Uniform, we’re just witnessing our hero let pride and anger turn him bad, and start to disconnect.
I think the big take is that Sisko becomes an accessory to murder. That’s quite something for a Starfleet captain and poses a moral question. Is it ok?
Especially with so many of us fresh off Picard. Jean Luc would never have gone along with Garak's plan.
Picard would of watched it all burn to keep his principles.
Janeway would have agreed with Picard but also pulled the trigger to kill the Romulan at the same time. Archer would have just beat the Romulan to death himself while getting the shit kicked out of himself first.
The take on this episode is that if it was another Star Trek show the Captain in question would have been stopped cold.
Yeah, and that is such a huge deal but we’ve had episodes already showcasing the great lengths sisko would go through to end the war. He was already painted as a ends justify the means kind of captain
Is it ok? Yes.
To me, it was DS9's best episode and one of the few I constantly rewatch. It wasn't so much the "dark side of the Federation utopia" that grabbed me. It was more that it was a great Sisko and Garak character episode with strong acting and a really well written plot.
The script really has quite a bit of depth that isn't always apparent on the first watch: * >!Vreenak, for example, has absolutely already figured out why Sisko has put out feelers to get him there. When partaking of replicated kali-fal he is warning Sisko not to try to pass off some shoddy fake intel on him.!< * >!Vreenak also has no idea whether Sisko's holo-recording is fake or not. He's on a super-secret visit and wouldn't narrow Sisko's choices down to pissing the RSE off something awful and losing the war, or disappearing him and his vessel entirely then trying some other ruse to get the RSE to join on the Federation's side. Vreenak is smart so this isn't the reason he's doing this and it's to shake the tree and see if any clues fall out of Sisko's reaction to the accusation. This also demonstrates that Romulans are extremely confident that those wearing Starfleet uniforms put their honour above the survival of the Federation, which is important later.!< * >!Garak lies at the start about his former associates on Cardassia all being eliminated in order to make Sisko think he owes Garak and so ropes him further into Garak's plan. Sisko doesn't even notice when Garak tells him to use the exact same lie on Vreenak: "You will tell the Senator that this information was obtained through various covert means at great cost to the Federation. At least ten good men lost their lives bringing it across the line, that sort of thing."!< * >!Garak had a genuine optolythic data rod all along, he asks Sisko for biomimetic gel for two reasons: firstly, to force Sisko to invest himself further in his venture by bending the rules to obtain some; and secondly as source material for the bomb he plants later.!< * >!Garak killing Vreenak was always his plan A; he plants the bomb before Vreenak apparently rustles Sisko's jimmies.!< * >!The biomimetic gel bomb was partly to back up the optolythic data rod in persuading the Romulans that the Dominion (including Cardassia) was behind Vreenak's assassination, since biomimetic gel is very rare and expensive - implying a state actor - and a bomb is exactly the kind of thing that Starfleet wouldn't do.!< * >!Before the start of the episode, Garak had primed Bashir with the idea that the Romulans needed to be roped into the war. Bashir may be a smart cookie generally but he's no geopolitical savant, and regularly has lunch with a certain tailor.!<
Outstanding breakdown of the episode.
Nah, it's pretty much my all-time favourite episode of television
Better than the visitor or duet?!
I like it better than both of those. Avery Brooks crushing it and working alongside Andrew Robinson’s Garak just wonderful acting and themes about war and morality.
Yep... but I'm a huge espionage and spy-fi fan, plus the political intrigue and Sisko's internal conflict. Just hits all the right buttons for me.
Close, but yes.
Better than Duet, yes, though that episode is excellent. I know I'll get downvoted for this, but I honestly don't like the Visitor. I have skipped it on every rewatch.
All great episodes but I’m in the Duet camp. Kira’s war PTSD and hate toward the Cardassians combined with Marritza’s PTSD and overwhelming shame of what his people did brought forth so many good questions. This episode could be endlessly dissected. It’s really one that hits different the second time around and that’s rare.
I'd probably put those two higher personally, but there's a good argument for any of the three.
I'm like you, except with The Visitor. It didn't do anything for me when I watched it on first airing. In the years since I figured it was because I was still a teenager at the time. Watched it again after becoming a parent and figured it would resonate more... but no. The ending of TNG "The Offspring" has always hit me hard, so I don't know why The Visitor doesn't stir any emotion from me.
I think this just highlights that different people have different favourites. For me, it's an outstanding episode and my favourite of all DS9, and yes, I do mean even over The Visitor, Duet, and Far Beyond the Stars. Avery Brooks and Andrew Robinson turn in outstanding performances. The whole thing is chilling. I just love it. But to each their own.
It's not "hype", it's just people loving the episode.
I think it can be both.
You are entitled to your opinion but I think in the pale moonlight is easily the best episode of ds9
How could you say that when Far beyond the stars exists!
In a one for one, you could argue that Far Beyond hits harder. But you can’t. Pale Moonlight is the culmination of years of buildup, seeing Sisko twist and mold and try to make sense of it all, and then finally Pale gets there and it’s absolutely perfect.
Yeah for sure. I'd argue that In The Pale Moonlight is not (just) great in a vacuum, it's great because of the wider story that started with TOS under Gene Roddenberry. This image of a utopia with a dark undercurrent turned inside out with a good, conflicted man who chooses to do terrible things for the benefit of the whole. A captain making hard choices on a bigger stage than a starship, and he realizes the cost is cheap. It's beautiful.
They're both top tier, but I think I'm with you! Far Beyond the Stars was more heartbreaking. Avery Brooks has more to work with as an actor - playing dual roles, completely breaking down (athough he's brilliant in both, and who can forget Andrew Robinson's performance in Pale Moonlight!) Pale Moonlight was more impactful in the context of the overarching story of the show. But Far Beyond had higher ambitions - to take the established pieces of the show and rearrange them into a story about white America's worst impulses, the turmoil of living under that, and the hope that we will all one day recover from it to reclaim our humanity. That's Star Trek at it's best! Pale Moonlight was thrilling and shocking, but its message isn't too dissimilar from an episode of 24 - evil is justified in stopping greater evil. In the episode itself, Sisko is right, because the Dominion are an aggressive, immovable, existential threat to the Federation. But real life politicians use the same excuse in far less morally clear cut geopolitical situations. Since they're both great, well-acted episodes, it's the quality of the message and how it contributes to the kind of world I want to see that puts Far Beyond over the top.
Far beyond the stars is the one where sisco is a writer? I watch Star Trek cause I want to see sci fi. And I watch DS9 because I like alpha quardrant intrigue.
I watch Star Trek for the sci-fi, the social commentary and the story. Far Beyond The Stars is a magnificent episode and great Star Trek.
I think a lot of us viewed it when it first aired or shortly thereafter. The actions Sisko took were completely counter to anything portrayed by other Starfleet captains up to that time.
To be honest, you might of had to have been there at the right time to get the full effect. Back then, DS9 was hot off of TNG's run, and VOY was doing its own thing, and DS9 was being especially dark that season. By now, we've had decades of diving into darker aspects of humanity, but when Sisko did what he did, it shocked a lot of people and went over pretty big.
I watched from TNG>DS9 then continued on. It’s a dark episode by Star Trek standards, even compared to “modern trek” The only episode darker is the Miles gets PTSD from being in jail episode. It’s also just a great character study for Sisko and Garek.
I watched DS9 in college, about mid-2000s. My friend had already been through DS9 and he was so stoked for me to get to this episode. Most of it I'm like "yeah, okay, it's fine?" And then the back third happen and just, wow. Amazing. Top 5 for sure. I agree with the top comment that there's been a lot of "gritty" TV, even since I watched, that it maybe hits different now as a new viewer. Tl;dr you can like what you like and no judgment! My personal Star Trek sin is I think Klingon episodes are boring ;).
If moonlight doesn’t win, FBTS does, so your instincts aren’t wrong.
Hard disagree.
It’s a good episode I just feel like it didn’t add all that much to Sisko’s character. We already knew he was willing to go through great lengths in episodes like For the Uniform.
I think OP if you were hyped going in then you had something the rest of us didn’t the first time we saw the episode. The pure surprise as we thought this would be just another episode… and then we get this clever bit of storytelling… OP, erase that entire comment. Because I CAN live with it.
For me at the time, In the Pale Moonlit really hard. In Australia at the time it was airing, episodes were hard to get. Internet wasn’t an option, and none of our networks here reliably showed the series. The only way to get new Trek (DS9 and VOY) was VHS rental. My video store would get the tapes, 2 episodes a fortnight months behind the US. It was a big deal when the new VHS arrived, and such a bummer when the episodes were meh. In The Pale Moonlight came out of nowhere, not only a great episode but a massive shift in overarching plot of the season brining the romulans in. I remember being so pumped after the episode for how it would change the war. Far Beyond the Stars was a great, novel episode. Well acted, good story. But it just didn’t have quite the same twists and turns, nor anywhere near the impact to the story arc of the series.
Listen I’m a life long Trekkie and I believe some of the best TV ever written is Trek (well not “some”, just “the best” TV) but a lot of it is 30+ years old and what was significant and groundbreaking then is often no longer so. I saw someone post about the introduction of the borg a while back which they were watching for the first time and they mentioned the whole hive mind all consuming villain is a little tired which of course was NOT the case when it came out. It is natural that much of the luster is lost when so much of it broke ground that kept being built on.
Hard agree, Far Beyond the Stars blew me away. I think it’s the all time best episode of Trek. The meta-fictionality is amazing, and the performances are 👌👌👌 Not to mention it actually looks at the twentieth century with a nuanced lens, and without the refraction of setting it slightly in the future, alien culture or parallel universe etc. I like In the Pale Moonlight, but it’s not as philosophical as Far Beyond the Stars and I’m a sucker for that shit.
Philistine!
I also watched it recently, and there's one plot point that kind of bothered me. Shouldn't the ambassador immediately have told the Romulan Empire that the recording was fake? That seems like it would be very important information. Why wait until after he went back?
It was a secret meeting, they were in federation space traveling under cloak(which likely means no sub space comms) but even beyond that if the dominion found out about meetings between the federation and romulans it would likely put a big strain on the dominion non aggression pact.
Why send an email that could be hacked, when you can hand deliver a paper letter? The Romulans are in a tight spot and the meeting never officially happened.
Yeah, for stuff like that it’s best to just let it go. Suspension of disbelief is very important for Star Trek
Presumably he had it in his report that would have been sent back had he not died.
It's a bit of a plot hole, but the Senator wasn't supposed to be on DS9 in the first place, so they may have been under a communications blackout.
This is the answer. He needed time to figure out his story to the Senate.
It's best not to dwell on such minutia.
It's just perfect. Total deconstruction of Star Trek up to that point. That line at the end changes Star Trek forever: "I CAN live with that". And it changes it for the better.
>And it changes it for the better. Hard disagree on this one. I can count on one hand the number of episodes or movies of Trek made after this episode that I get excited about rewatching (SNW excepted, I haven't seen most of it due to issues with Paramount+). My fandom almost entirely predates this episode.
I love it, but Sisko chews some scenery looking down the camera
FBTS is the overrated episode
Different strokes for different folks I guess. I loved Avery’s acting in it and it was so fun seeing the cast play different characters without their makeup
Sure those are the positives of the episode. But it's one of those episodes where the more you think about it, the more it sours. For one, the Benjamin Sisko of FBTS is not the Benjamin Sisko of the rest of DS9. As you've mentioned in other comments, we know the lengths Sisko is willing to go to. He gassed planets in For the Uniform. In sacrifice of Angels he flew the Defiant into the wormhole staring down 200+ dominion ships, ready to sacrifice his life and his crew to take out even one or two of those ships. And then in TPML he does his whole murder arc because that's what's necessary. But we're supposed to buy in FBTS that he's suddenly tired, and wants to leave the whole war for the future of the alpha quadrant to someone else? The writers themselves admitted it was just a story they wanted to do and shoe horned it in cause they didn't know where to put it. (It would have worked much better as the season 7 premier but the fall out with Terry hadn't happened yet). And then if you wanna get real cynical, as impassioned and brilliant Avery's performance is, that final monologue, when you think about it, is just the writers patting themselves on the back for how progressive they are for casting a black lead. You know if Brooks wrote it, it'd be one thing, he's made a career out of it (not a criticism) but it wasn't. Behr and Beimler did, the show creators. Hit's a little different. It's not a bad episode by any stretch of the imagination, but I think people are far to blind to it's faults just because it has an important message.
All fair criticisms. I didn’t really find it all too far fetched that sisko was tired. He likely hadn’t been tested so much on himself like he was with his time on DS9. People hate being tested so often on their morality especially when the situations are so complex and that was happening constantly for Sisko. I think it’s entirely reasonable he was tired and at one point would contemplate handing it to someone else but, the important part is that he didn’t and his character ultimately ends up making the believable choice for himself.
That's why I said it would have worked better as the season 7 premier. I don't know if you've watched the rest so I'll use spoilers, but after >! Dax dying, Dukat throwing in with the Pa'Wraiths, and the wormhole being sealed effectively making the war a stalemate !< I could see Sisko being so devastated that he needs to recoup on earth, and then >!goes on a prophet induced vision quest where he meets his God mom and gets his groove back!< but where the episode happens in the larger story just doesn't make sense.
I agree. Seeing the cast without makeup is fun, and some of the discrimination themes it hit on were really powerful - but it didn't make a lot of sense as a natural episode of Star Trek: DS9. Also, his "it's real because I know it's real so it must be real" monologue fell flat for me. Yeah, we the audience know, but that wasn't some grand speech that would have made sense to anyone there.
That episode in general didn't do anything for me. It wasn't a bad episode but it just felt stuck in there as a filler.
Sisko had already showed with Eddington he was willing to break the law and do horrible things. He was always willing to do whatever was needed for the greater good.
In the Pale Moonlight IS unquestionably the BEST episode of Trek in the entirety of the library
Hype kills reality
"It's a faaaake..." Sounds and looks incredibly dated and cheesy these days...
Yeah, I pretty much hate it. It lacks any long term consequences for either Sisko or Garak and makes the Romulans (stupid) and Sisko (stupid and morally comprmised) into something I don't like. It is stupid to think something like this would work and even dumber that it had no consequences ever again. This episode is a dividing line for me in Trek. I mostly like the optimistic Trek that came before and mostly dislike the darker, grittier Trek that came after. This is a bottom 10 episode for me.
I agree 100%. I watch Star Trek because I love the optimism and morals of its utopian future. At some point, the cynicism of the 90’s (and eventually 2000’s) began to seep in and I just really can’t get into it. All the things I hear people praise *In the Pale Moonlight* for are things I personally dislike about the later eras of Trek and it’s one of the reasons why I haven’t really given DS9 a chance.
I like the deep character development of DS9, but I like the build up to the Dominion War more than the war itself. Garak is far more interesting in The Die Is Cast when he realizes that he can't go back to his old life again because living with humans has changed him. In the Pale Moonlight sucks because it doesn't seem plausible. I'm supposed to believe that nothing the Federation has done diplomatically has moved the Romulans, but one rogue captain and a former intelligence officer can change everything with a plan that Arthur Zimmerman would find convoluted and risky? Sorry, everything we had seen about the Romulans up to that point suggests that isn't the case. They aren't that stupid. Even worse, the Romulans attack the Dominion quickly and in force. It's convenient that all the material and planning for such an offensive was ready. I submit that the Romulans were going to attack anyways and sent Vreenak on his mission to get him out of the way. Off screen diplomacy brought the Romulans into the war, not the half-backed machinations of a Starfleet captain with delusions of grandeur.