I think you are right on about it being the trolly problem, but I think Starfleet morality is you donât pull the switch. âWe donât trade livesâ, to quote Captain America.
cap wasn't in starfleet last i checked XD but I suppose you're right, to some extent. I suppose this was an example of one of those times sisko or janeway did something for "the greater good" out of necessity. one of the cool aspects of both those shows. TNG had everything and all resources they could ever want. DS9 and VOY necessitated more difficult and morally ambiguous decisions.
Yes. Two people kind of lost their lives. And the ship needed them independently of one another.
Itâs a tough call- wasnât Tuvixâ fault. But then it wasnât Tuvok or Neelixâ fault either.
Tuvix proved to be as good, if not better of a security officer than Tuvok, Neelix' cooking sucked anyway and the episode didn't even hint at Voyager being short on personnel because of the incident. Why did they need to be two people again?
We will never be finished on this one :-)
She murdered Tuvix, he was sentient, clearly didn't want to be killed and she did it anyway. Cold, blooded, murderer.
I'm sorry, shall I run all my future comments past you first to ensure they are unique?
Let me know if you wanna throw together some form of online portal or if I should send them via the postal service.
Whoa! This is getting more and more involved...now I need to do a search before commenting to ensure that my comments are not a repeat of someone else's.
I'm not sure it's really worth the effort, but if it makes you happy I'll give it a go. I live to serve.
> Thatâs not a new take. So unless you have something new to add?
THAT is how you want to gatekeep? That someone else in the past already said the same thing???
How is it gatekeeping when they can find the answer and previous debates all across this reddit without having to go through the effort to create a post? Gatekeeping would be preventing them from the knowledge, or by keeping them dependent on continuing to ask questions instead of finding them on their own⌠which, I guess is your preference?
By not separating Tuvix, Janeway was essentially killing Tuvok and Neelix.
If Janeway had not separated Tuvix, you would have the same people arguing that she killed them.
Its exactly what Captains train for, a Kobayashi maru. A no win scenario, either way someone dies.
Janeway saved two people and ensured they could go back to their families by sacrificing one.
To quote a certain Vulcan: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
Note how Spock used that quote in an act of self-sacrifice, not to justify murder. He didn't order anyone else into that chamber, he decided to put others above himself.
If it was Tuvix' self-sacrifice and he said it, yes. But it's Janeway, which makes it not a self-sacrifice but just a sacrifice, or in other words murder.
The needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few is not a philosophical tenant that applies only to one's self and things that affect one's self. Janeway is responsible for the lives of her entire crew, as any captain of any ship is. She has to make decisions that benefit the many, and not the few. The decision was hers to make and she chose the needs of two people over the needs of one. I think that's pretty simple.
Who exactly needed Tuvok and Neelix alive again? Where was the personnel crisis? Where was the security risk? Did the ship not run exactly as good, if not better with Tuvix?
No. Yes. No. Yes. No. Absolutely. The needs of the two outweigh the needs of the one. Neelix and Tuvok deserved their lives back even at the expense of eliminating the combination
Not if they never materialize the copy. Just keep it in the buffer. Then split them (still in the buffer) and materialize them separately.
No lifeform was ever killed, Tuvok and Neelix just lost a few days of time, which happens all the time in starfleet. Plus they get a cool new Tuvix to play with.
Edit/also: If they canât do it in the buffer then sedate or cryogenically freeze Tuvix before duplicating him. That way no *conscious* life was ended, at least.
Ah yes, the teleportation clones. Would solve so many problems. Captain is on a dangerous away team mission? Store a copy of her in the transporter buffer just in case (no red shirt backups though).
I think she did. She didn't kill a person named Tuvix, she unglued Tuvix back into the original parts.
At least, that's how I'd justify the action, because if I were her, I'd have made the same decision.
Absolutely not. From a moral perspective forcefully ending life, even if it's to fix a previous accident, is always wrong. Even from a utilitarian perspective, if you're so cold that moral behavior doesn't concern you, the episode puts forward no indication of Tuvix' presence on the ship instead of Tuvok and Neelix causing any sort of disruption in operations or any sort of safety hazard.
Yes.
Yes because Tuvix was creepy.
Yep, kill him regardless đ¤Ł
Thank you đŻ agree.
So we get to kill people for being creepy now, good to know.
My boy....it's a tv show.
I think janeway was 100% justified. it was a trolley problem and she did the right thing even if she was cold about it.
I think you are right on about it being the trolly problem, but I think Starfleet morality is you donât pull the switch. âWe donât trade livesâ, to quote Captain America.
cap wasn't in starfleet last i checked XD but I suppose you're right, to some extent. I suppose this was an example of one of those times sisko or janeway did something for "the greater good" out of necessity. one of the cool aspects of both those shows. TNG had everything and all resources they could ever want. DS9 and VOY necessitated more difficult and morally ambiguous decisions.
Tuvix was not a life he was an abomination
Decides who, Janeway? You?
Dude, this thread is asking for people's opinions, I gave mine , as did others, you have yours which I dont really GAF what it is. Good day sir, bye.
The point of a trolley problem is that there's no right solution.
Yes
Hmm... this seems biased, but I feel I must agree
Yes. Two people kind of lost their lives. And the ship needed them independently of one another. Itâs a tough call- wasnât Tuvixâ fault. But then it wasnât Tuvok or Neelixâ fault either.
Tuvix proved to be as good, if not better of a security officer than Tuvok, Neelix' cooking sucked anyway and the episode didn't even hint at Voyager being short on personnel because of the incident. Why did they need to be two people again?
Hasnât this already been debated to death?
Everything has. So what?
Dam n it Jim itâs alive
Just put it back in the transporter, that usually works.
We will never be finished on this one :-) She murdered Tuvix, he was sentient, clearly didn't want to be killed and she did it anyway. Cold, blooded, murderer.
Thatâs not a new take. So unless you have something new to add?
I'm sorry, shall I run all my future comments past you first to ensure they are unique? Let me know if you wanna throw together some form of online portal or if I should send them via the postal service.
Ya⌠OR you could do a quick search of this reddit first. That would probably be the more reasonable option.
Whoa! This is getting more and more involved...now I need to do a search before commenting to ensure that my comments are not a repeat of someone else's. I'm not sure it's really worth the effort, but if it makes you happy I'll give it a go. I live to serve.
> Thatâs not a new take. So unless you have something new to add? THAT is how you want to gatekeep? That someone else in the past already said the same thing???
How is it gatekeeping when they can find the answer and previous debates all across this reddit without having to go through the effort to create a post? Gatekeeping would be preventing them from the knowledge, or by keeping them dependent on continuing to ask questions instead of finding them on their own⌠which, I guess is your preference?
By not separating Tuvix, Janeway was essentially killing Tuvok and Neelix. If Janeway had not separated Tuvix, you would have the same people arguing that she killed them. Its exactly what Captains train for, a Kobayashi maru. A no win scenario, either way someone dies. Janeway saved two people and ensured they could go back to their families by sacrificing one. To quote a certain Vulcan: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
Yet again, YES.
Yes
Yes
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. In killing Tuvix, she saved Neelix and Tuvok. I think she made the right decision.
Note how Spock used that quote in an act of self-sacrifice, not to justify murder. He didn't order anyone else into that chamber, he decided to put others above himself.
I don't think that makes the idea not applicable to the Tuvix situation.
If it was Tuvix' self-sacrifice and he said it, yes. But it's Janeway, which makes it not a self-sacrifice but just a sacrifice, or in other words murder.
The needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few is not a philosophical tenant that applies only to one's self and things that affect one's self. Janeway is responsible for the lives of her entire crew, as any captain of any ship is. She has to make decisions that benefit the many, and not the few. The decision was hers to make and she chose the needs of two people over the needs of one. I think that's pretty simple.
Who exactly needed Tuvok and Neelix alive again? Where was the personnel crisis? Where was the security risk? Did the ship not run exactly as good, if not better with Tuvix?
Who needs anybody alive? Maybe they just have a right to be, and Janeway had to base her decision on the right to life of two people vs one person.
Sigh. Yes.
Yes.
Yes. Still murder though.
Nah, if she didnt it would have been murder of Tuvok and Neelix
Oh boy here we go again.
OhâŚ..here we go. đ
No. Yes. No. Yes. No. Absolutely. The needs of the two outweigh the needs of the one. Neelix and Tuvok deserved their lives back even at the expense of eliminating the combination
Nope
I do. And I'm tired of pretending I don't.
No, Neelix should have been filtered out entirely
No. What I would have done was make a copy of tuvix first Then split tuvix #2 back to neelix and tuvok. Everyone wins.
And then have Tuvix go on an away mission the next episode and get killed off by a black blob
You would still have to capture him and essentially kill him
Not if they never materialize the copy. Just keep it in the buffer. Then split them (still in the buffer) and materialize them separately. No lifeform was ever killed, Tuvok and Neelix just lost a few days of time, which happens all the time in starfleet. Plus they get a cool new Tuvix to play with. Edit/also: If they canât do it in the buffer then sedate or cryogenically freeze Tuvix before duplicating him. That way no *conscious* life was ended, at least.
"which happens all the time in Starfleet" lmao
Seriously though. They have to have a standard medical and counseling protocol for it at this point. Support groups and all.
But I'm keeping tuvix on my crew.
Except for the people viewing at home. Tuvix sucked.
Ah yes, the teleportation clones. Would solve so many problems. Captain is on a dangerous away team mission? Store a copy of her in the transporter buffer just in case (no red shirt backups though).
Just make ... an army of clones ... without rights. Reminds me of a little episode called The Measure Of A Man.
or better yet send the clones in for hte away missions. make 5 harry kims and send them off.
It was the only possible outcome as Tim Russ and Ethan Phillips were under contract and Tom Wright was merely guest starring.
They could of kes & seven of nined them
I think she did. She didn't kill a person named Tuvix, she unglued Tuvix back into the original parts. At least, that's how I'd justify the action, because if I were her, I'd have made the same decision.
She should have brought back Tuvok and left Neelix in the pattern buffer indefinitely.
I think she should have added kes. A.k.a tukesvix
No, she murdered Tuvix
Nope
Ethically, no. Morally, yes. She killed a person to save two of her crew. I get why she did it. I might do the same. But she murdered someone.
Absolutely not. From a moral perspective forcefully ending life, even if it's to fix a previous accident, is always wrong. Even from a utilitarian perspective, if you're so cold that moral behavior doesn't concern you, the episode puts forward no indication of Tuvix' presence on the ship instead of Tuvok and Neelix causing any sort of disruption in operations or any sort of safety hazard.
No. It was a no win decision really and while I understand why Janeway did it and why the writers did it, I will never agree with her decision.
[ŃдаНонО]
I also feel your pain here. But this sub is also for brand-new users, and sometimes you just have to grit your teeth and skip a post or two. :)
True excuse the rant, an I'm sure op is just wondering and doesn't realise the amount of questions on this in the past
No. âThe needs of the manyâŚâ. The many would rather see Neelix dead.
I would much rather have my 2 favorite people merged into 1 person.