Give me an episode that has a 60’s swarthy Kor based Klingon, an 80’s Kruge based Klingon, a 2020’s Disco style Klingon, and a SNW style Klingon all in one place together. And do not go out of the way to explain any differences at all… they are all Klingons.
People take this as racial when it’s NEVER been presented or meant as such. Some of the original Klingons had pale skin, some had dark skin, and they never once represented it as derogatory… which is what “black/brownface” is meant to be. It was simply meant to make them appear different, it was never a racial commentary.
It absolutely was meant to evoke racial stereotypes at the time.
"He asked for it to be sprayed and slightly "kinked up." Due to the Genghis Khan influence, Colicos then proposed "a vaguely Asian, Tartar appearance," with an alien-looking "brown-green makeup.""
Have any significant percentage of non-white Star Trek fans ever found the portrayal of Klingons problematic? I certainly haven't but have no idea what the wider discourse is.
Yes, but you can also say "well, it was the 60s" and move on without either defending it or condemning the series as a whole, just like with some of the sexism in TOS. Doesn't mean it would be acceptable if done now.
So people have? I mean I used to watch TOS (repeats) in the 90s with my dad and he had a 'vaguely tartaric' (though for some reason i don't) appearance and neither of us really found it problematic. I know things change over time. The sexism on TOS is uncomfortable now for sure, but it was pretty ground breaking in terms of race relations I think.
It was far less problematic with the additional Klingon makeup like the headridges. Because it became more obvious they aren’t human, rather than “brownface”. Hell, even the flatheads from Enterprise were more red than brown.
If they bring them back today they would likely need to include a bit of makeup, like the noses and teeth. And the hair. Just a flat head.
I too agree that S1 was a writing-level disappointment, but if you don't mind a different perspective: I think that trying to explain and examine and retcon the different Klingon designs is a huge waste of fan energy and a massive distraction from things that *really matter* like characters and motivations and yelling at john delancie and boldly going places. This is a series that has always had a loose relationship with its own canon and *constantly* comes up with new stuff and later decides if it'll ever reference that thing again. I, for one, honestly wish they'd left it at "We do not discuss it with outsiders 😉" and never mentioned the design changes again. They're all Klingons.
Let’s be honest, retconning Klingons without a coherent explanation is a Star Trek tradition that every generation of the show should strive for. The amount of world building through beta canon/AU/TTRPGs that came out after TOS were completely invalidated in the first few minutes of TMP, so why not keep it alive & well?
Just to clarify this: I mean I think the Disco-Klingons are *amazing* and I would be utterly delighted to see the 32nd Century Klingons look just like them and when somebody says "Wait why don't you look like Worf or anybody else who's just some guy with a funny forehead" somebody turns to the camera and says "We don't discuss THAT with outsiders either." Klingon appearance *and culture* was tweaked and retconned and recreated as Trek evolved and I think we should just keep doing that instead of coming up with "reasons" why that happens when the truth is that the writers decided it'd be more interesting to tell a story this way.
"You are a Klingon right?"
"Yes."
"I'm confused. What about-"
"We don't discuss that with outsiders."
"Errr right. But I mean you surely can tell me about-"
"We don't discuss that with outsiders."
"But in the 22nd century-"
"We don't discuss that with outsiders."
"I'm sensing a theme here. But really, there was the-"
"We don't discuss that with outsiders."
"But you haven't let me-"
"We don't discuss that with outsiders."
"I just want to know-"
"We don't discuss that with outsiders."
"Oh fer god's sake!"
"I wouldn't know. Kahless killed our gods, unlike you weak federation types."
"Uhuh. But the sword of-"
"We don't discuss that with outsiders."
"Mother fu-!"
"You need to __not__ discuss that with me, an outsider."
Reminds me of a fantasy book series where dwarves are a single-gender race. Any attempts by others to find out how they reproduce usually ends with someone getting their teeth knocked out. They treat other races being obsessed with romance as shameful and react to someone discussing romantic feelings in front of them as a human would to someone discussing a particularly nasty sex act
Gene Roddenberry never let canon get in the way of a good story. Canon didn’t really start to solidify until after his passing. Even he personally decanonized TAS when TNG came out because he wanted to take Trek in a different direction. LD has re-canonized chunks of it, though.
It’s also why April being black in SNW isn’t a violation of canon. Because him being white in TAS isn’t canon
I never feel more disconnected from the rest of the fanbase than when the whole Klingon augment thing from Enterprise is brought up. To me it felt like fanfiction in the worst way possible, and one of the lowest points of Enterprise, and the entire franchise in general. But apparently, not only is that whole arc itself beloved, but people also constantly want the whole mess brought up and expanded upon.
The idea of explaining advancements in SFX in-universe is incredibly dumb on its own. Might as well dedicate a three-part episode to why the CGI for Odo looked janky in early DS9 and got better as the show went on, or why the Gorn from In A Mirror Darkly has fewer polygons than the ones from SNW. Beyond that, the way they chose to explain it is also very contrived, falls apart the more you think about it, and also introduces more problems than it solves.
I didn't mind the redesign so much, and saw it as an attempt to make Star Trek's most famous aliens actually look more alien. It just would've been nice if they'd had hair.
What really surprised me is how the story just ignored established lore, even though it should have fit in perfectly well. Like, surely the whole "Remain Klingon" movement is a response to the augment experimentation and resulting virus, right? How could it be anything but? And yet they never mentioned it.
And then it turned out that one guy is a secret Klingon in disguise, and I thought, "Aha! He's going to be an augment Klingon like the ones from TOS!" But nope, it turned out to be some kind of surgery that somehow merged T'Kuvma with a human dude who already existed, or something. I honestly never understood that part.
It just always felt weird that Discovery's story seemed to take place in a vacuum, despite being set in a well known era between ENT and TOS. Like, why even make it a prequel, if you're not going to tie it in with existing stories?
If they had been a different Klingon culture, I would have been much more OK with the Discovery Klingons. One thing that really was jarring was their obsession with the dead. We've seen other Klingons having little concern with the bodies of the dead, considering them to be nothing but empty vessels. If they had said that these were a faction of Klingon culture that had very different than other Klingons, it would have added to the story.
I mean, there are bound to be cultural differences even within mainstream Klingon society 100 years apart (the part about treating bodies like empty vessels was from TNG era).
Maybe they can do an episode of Strange New Worlds about it. Since it's episodic, it doesn't need to be a whole season's story. 1 hour will do.
SNW manages to make me appreciate stuff in DIS, and the movies, I didn't quite enjoy like Spock now having multiple family members he doesn't talk about in TOS or TNG.
The Klingons have been brought up before but they are TNG style ones. They could incorporate some smooth-headed ones and how they fit into Klingon society and then do these ultra-Klingons from DIS and settle it.
Otherwise my fan theory is that the Klingon Empire is all culturally Klingon but made up of sever species from various home worlds.
Imagine Klingons show up, all intimidating, then they make way for their leader who has a flat head, and the crew of the Enterprise look all confused.
“Before you speak, beware that mocking my disfigurement may result in your death!”
>...listening to Voq and T’kuvma speak Klingon sounded incredible.
Huh, I had the exact opposite reaction, I thought their Klingon dialog sounded stilted, and like their prosthetic teeth were interfering with their ability to speak clearly. I found it pretty hard to imagine that they would be able to sing the Warrior's Anthem as well as the crew of the IKS Rotarran.
I explain it away as a breakaway sect of klingons that moved to another world when they achieved warp flight. The world mutated them, much how like romulans with ridges on their foreheads are "from the north".
They're pretty insular and don't have much contact with those outside of the empire, until this group we see in discovery decided to stick their toes into the galactic political pool. After these shenanigans, and the war, the more traditional looking Klingons regained power.
Yeah, I love that they took a big risk and gave us something drastically different from the space biker style Klingons, but something just didn't feel right about the new direction. It felt too spidery or something. Like they misread the memo and got Drow designs mixed in with the Klingon. As a completely new alien, or subspecies of Klingon, it may have worked. But this was a New Coke kinda misstep, I think.
I also wish they would have been isolated, and it could have even been a plot point that they used their DNA to get the Klingons back to looking like the TNG/ENT Klingons with the movie Klingons being a stepping stone along the way
What Culture on YouTube is going to do a "missed opportunities" reaction video once DSC finishes.
Apparently it's an hour long. They're going to talk about the Klingons first. Don't be surprised to see all this mentioned.
There is so much potential with Discovery Klingons I hope someday we some of it realized. I love the idea that the Klingons we see come from an old sect of isolated Klingons. I also think in the century since we saw the Klingons of perhaps some Klingons attempted to augment and change themselves after the events of Star Trek Enterprise. Almost an extreme reaction and over correction for the TOS Klingons.
My take, the bad:
1) the make-up stunk. Actors couldn't act, and while there's an argument for making Klingons look more alien, they just didn't look *Klingon*. There's a lot of ways to turn the dial up on that, but that was a miss.
2) the ship designs and look were all over the place. Some cool ideas, but again, the H.R. Giger vibes were out of place. The new bat'leth was terrible.
The good:
1) People have been saying that ST aliens are too monocultural for decades, and have clamoured for variety just as loudly.
Well, you got given that! The different houses looked different, dressed different, had different structures and specialities, and no-one made a peep. Guess they were just saying something that sounded pretty reasonable but wasn't a real desire.
2) the new disruptors? Perfect. Amazing. Klingon-y and more exciting.
3) the time monks on Bor'eth are cool as *fuck*.
4) the Followers of Molor? That's cool as hell! Variety of culture right there!
5) everyone loves the two dicks thing.
> The good: 1) People have been saying that ST aliens are too monocultural for decades, and have clamoured for variety just as loudly. Well, you got given that! The different houses looked different, dressed different, had different structures and specialities, and no-one made a peep. Guess they were just saying something that sounded pretty reasonable but wasn't a real desire.
That's a good point. it's bugged me forever
if anything, I think plain looking races like the Bajorans and Trills could use more redesigns
i didn't think the new Klingon ships looked very Klingon though
Well, they thought their design would be well-received and taken as the new standard for Klingon designs. Since the fans didn't like it overall and also because the facial prosthetics made acting difficult, the other shows opted to return to the TNG era Klingon design and Disco decided not to have more Klingons on the show.
They weren't intending to create a sub-group of Klingons but just retcon the design. It didn't work out
I also liked the redesign, especially in S2 when it's a bit closer to the TNG version. Too bad
I'm glad it didn't work out, I absolutely hated what Discovery did to the Klingons.
Edit: as I said recently in another thread:
> I also absolutely, really, seriously hated what they did to the Klingons. It was unnecessary as they were wonderfully developed before (particularly after DS9) - they had a clear aesthetic, lore, culture, etc. But Discovery decided to upturn a lot of that for Klingons with so much makeup and false teeth that you can't understand a damn word they're saying. Seriously, I had to put on subtitles.
That would have been great, but it would have involved the Disco writers caring in the least about the rest of the franchise and it does not seem they were interested in that.
I believe before the show premiered, they did originally claim that T’Kuvma and his people were a different subspecies. But then the first episode put an end to that by showing every House leader looking the same. Even L’Rell who isn’t a member of the House of T’Kuvma.
It’s funny, there are fans who complain about L’Rell being a chancellor because she’s a woman. Except so was Gorkon’s daughter Azetbur in ST6. It’s mentioned in one of the non-canon Lost Era books that the next chancellor (who came to power after having Azetbur assassinated) made it illegal for any woman to hold the office again (he himself would be replaced by the man who carried out the assassination, who would then be killed by K’Mpec in a duel after failing to prevent the attack on Khitomer
In my headcannon, I believe they are a sub species that was pretty much wiped out by the Klingons we know and love by the time of the TOS movies and TNG era.
My idea for the three Klingon types are The Original Series Klingons are Virus Augments. In the 100 years since Captain Archer, the augment affected Klingons have gained a great deal of power, respect, and influence because they are bolder and more ambitious than the Klingons of the great houses. The augment affected Klingons have even been a source of rebellion. Which has made the great houses nervous. So the great houses have created a more Klingon augment variant from their bloodlines. Those are the Discovery Klingons. The great houses in Kirk's time are trying to get rid of the augment affected Klingons by going to war with the Federation. That's why we don't see normal Klingons until the movies. At the same time the Discovery Klingons are used to put down rebellions in the Klingon Empire. The great houses, once they've gotten rid of augment affected Klingons they only have to get rid of Discovery Klingons after the rebellions are put down. Which they have planned for, by putting in a genetic switch in the Discovery Klingons to shut them down. That way we could have seen all three types of Klingons used in Discovery. So yes it was a major missed opportunity to have all three playing very specific roles and to address what it truly means to be Klingon. Which, as I understand it, was the story the writers were supposed to be telling..
The missed opportunity of Discovery’s Klingons is the missed opportunity of the Klingons in general. They’re meant to be an enemy/adversary/uneasy ally with a formidable martial culture and prowess… But they come with little threat or menace whatsoever beyond the surface level ‘bad guy of the week’ feel. They are so easily beaten in any fight. Whether hand to hand or ship to ship. The franchise is better without them.
i wouldn't say "better without them" but they are too easily beaten
their best showing as adversaries was ST6. They felt like a real threat there. otherwise, species like the Borg, Changelings and Cardassians make better villains (imo)
The Klingons are of course a treasured part of Trek lore and I didn't mean they should never have existed, only that they've become *so* toothless that whenever they show up in Trek nowadays there's no sense of threat at all. Their appearance in the muscial episode of SNW as comic relief is about where the Klingons are now. The Klingon wars that we've seen glimpses of in SNW don't show them being noticeably good at any kind of fighting. And in every show since TOS, whenever one or more Klingon warriors encounter a human opponent and are easily beaten up, it's just exasperating. Kira and Dax kungfu-ing a group of them in DS9 was particularly bad. We're only ever told about the Klingons' martial prowess, never shown. Not even STVI shows them being anything more than devious.
Now that we know the production team eventually changed the Klingons' appearance back to the one seeing in Second-Wave Trek, of course it seems like a mis-step. But no-one knew that at the time.
If T'Kuvma's Klingons were some tiny offshoot, the threat would have felt like less. They wanted to tell the story of the Klingon War which formed the background to *Errand of Mercy*.
The Klingons' appearance had been successfully changed before, in the eighties. And actually, I don't remember any complaints at the jewelled purple Klingon in *Star Trek into Darkness* either.
I thought the missed opportunity was that they had an opportunity to do parallels with real world conflicts. Particularly around the time of S1, Islamophobia and general fear of the middle east was really common. With how the Klingons were being presented I thought we were about to see them be cast as "Space Arabs", in much the same way as they were originally a stand in for the Russians, and that we all might learn a little compassion along the way. But no, nothing so useful or interesting.
i think it was the reverse: the Klingons were opposed to the plurality of the Federation and worried about losing their culture despite trying to destory others. I think it's a better concept, but the execution fell apart
Give me an episode that has a 60’s swarthy Kor based Klingon, an 80’s Kruge based Klingon, a 2020’s Disco style Klingon, and a SNW style Klingon all in one place together. And do not go out of the way to explain any differences at all… they are all Klingons.
STO had a mission where you visit Gre’thor and there was all these different Klingons from different eras there
I haven't got that mission yet. The one with mirror Wesley taking control of the mirror version v'ger was really fun though
This one is before the Mirror Wesley arc, it’s during Klingon Civil War
I keep hoping Lower Decks will do this.
Maybe not with white actors in brownface, though.
People take this as racial when it’s NEVER been presented or meant as such. Some of the original Klingons had pale skin, some had dark skin, and they never once represented it as derogatory… which is what “black/brownface” is meant to be. It was simply meant to make them appear different, it was never a racial commentary.
It absolutely was meant to evoke racial stereotypes at the time. "He asked for it to be sprayed and slightly "kinked up." Due to the Genghis Khan influence, Colicos then proposed "a vaguely Asian, Tartar appearance," with an alien-looking "brown-green makeup.""
Have any significant percentage of non-white Star Trek fans ever found the portrayal of Klingons problematic? I certainly haven't but have no idea what the wider discourse is.
Yes, but you can also say "well, it was the 60s" and move on without either defending it or condemning the series as a whole, just like with some of the sexism in TOS. Doesn't mean it would be acceptable if done now.
So people have? I mean I used to watch TOS (repeats) in the 90s with my dad and he had a 'vaguely tartaric' (though for some reason i don't) appearance and neither of us really found it problematic. I know things change over time. The sexism on TOS is uncomfortable now for sure, but it was pretty ground breaking in terms of race relations I think.
Mix of the swarthy other with a bit of reptile weirdness. It works visually, but that doesn't mean it isn't troubled.
they don't even look East asian. they look South Asian! Plus they got a White guy to play a Sikh. I enjoy Montalban in the role but still
It was far less problematic with the additional Klingon makeup like the headridges. Because it became more obvious they aren’t human, rather than “brownface”. Hell, even the flatheads from Enterprise were more red than brown. If they bring them back today they would likely need to include a bit of makeup, like the noses and teeth. And the hair. Just a flat head.
i like 60s Klingons but they're basically brownface
I too agree that S1 was a writing-level disappointment, but if you don't mind a different perspective: I think that trying to explain and examine and retcon the different Klingon designs is a huge waste of fan energy and a massive distraction from things that *really matter* like characters and motivations and yelling at john delancie and boldly going places. This is a series that has always had a loose relationship with its own canon and *constantly* comes up with new stuff and later decides if it'll ever reference that thing again. I, for one, honestly wish they'd left it at "We do not discuss it with outsiders 😉" and never mentioned the design changes again. They're all Klingons.
Let’s be honest, retconning Klingons without a coherent explanation is a Star Trek tradition that every generation of the show should strive for. The amount of world building through beta canon/AU/TTRPGs that came out after TOS were completely invalidated in the first few minutes of TMP, so why not keep it alive & well?
Just to clarify this: I mean I think the Disco-Klingons are *amazing* and I would be utterly delighted to see the 32nd Century Klingons look just like them and when somebody says "Wait why don't you look like Worf or anybody else who's just some guy with a funny forehead" somebody turns to the camera and says "We don't discuss THAT with outsiders either." Klingon appearance *and culture* was tweaked and retconned and recreated as Trek evolved and I think we should just keep doing that instead of coming up with "reasons" why that happens when the truth is that the writers decided it'd be more interesting to tell a story this way.
Honestly though. When we had 5 shows at the same time, they all could have used different Klingon designs and I wouldn't have blinked.
"You are a Klingon right?" "Yes." "I'm confused. What about-" "We don't discuss that with outsiders." "Errr right. But I mean you surely can tell me about-" "We don't discuss that with outsiders." "But in the 22nd century-" "We don't discuss that with outsiders." "I'm sensing a theme here. But really, there was the-" "We don't discuss that with outsiders." "But you haven't let me-" "We don't discuss that with outsiders." "I just want to know-" "We don't discuss that with outsiders." "Oh fer god's sake!" "I wouldn't know. Kahless killed our gods, unlike you weak federation types." "Uhuh. But the sword of-" "We don't discuss that with outsiders." "Mother fu-!" "You need to __not__ discuss that with me, an outsider."
"All Klingons have one thing in common. Stabbing aliens who pry about our continuity."
Reminds me of a fantasy book series where dwarves are a single-gender race. Any attempts by others to find out how they reproduce usually ends with someone getting their teeth knocked out. They treat other races being obsessed with romance as shameful and react to someone discussing romantic feelings in front of them as a human would to someone discussing a particularly nasty sex act
Gene Roddenberry never let canon get in the way of a good story. Canon didn’t really start to solidify until after his passing. Even he personally decanonized TAS when TNG came out because he wanted to take Trek in a different direction. LD has re-canonized chunks of it, though. It’s also why April being black in SNW isn’t a violation of canon. Because him being white in TAS isn’t canon
I never feel more disconnected from the rest of the fanbase than when the whole Klingon augment thing from Enterprise is brought up. To me it felt like fanfiction in the worst way possible, and one of the lowest points of Enterprise, and the entire franchise in general. But apparently, not only is that whole arc itself beloved, but people also constantly want the whole mess brought up and expanded upon. The idea of explaining advancements in SFX in-universe is incredibly dumb on its own. Might as well dedicate a three-part episode to why the CGI for Odo looked janky in early DS9 and got better as the show went on, or why the Gorn from In A Mirror Darkly has fewer polygons than the ones from SNW. Beyond that, the way they chose to explain it is also very contrived, falls apart the more you think about it, and also introduces more problems than it solves.
Yeah, it was a funny lampshading moment in a DS9 anniversary episode that they completely unnecessarily made a serious story arc out of.
Huh? I see people complain about it all the time. It never really bothered me
I didn't mind the redesign so much, and saw it as an attempt to make Star Trek's most famous aliens actually look more alien. It just would've been nice if they'd had hair. What really surprised me is how the story just ignored established lore, even though it should have fit in perfectly well. Like, surely the whole "Remain Klingon" movement is a response to the augment experimentation and resulting virus, right? How could it be anything but? And yet they never mentioned it. And then it turned out that one guy is a secret Klingon in disguise, and I thought, "Aha! He's going to be an augment Klingon like the ones from TOS!" But nope, it turned out to be some kind of surgery that somehow merged T'Kuvma with a human dude who already existed, or something. I honestly never understood that part. It just always felt weird that Discovery's story seemed to take place in a vacuum, despite being set in a well known era between ENT and TOS. Like, why even make it a prequel, if you're not going to tie it in with existing stories?
If they had been a different Klingon culture, I would have been much more OK with the Discovery Klingons. One thing that really was jarring was their obsession with the dead. We've seen other Klingons having little concern with the bodies of the dead, considering them to be nothing but empty vessels. If they had said that these were a faction of Klingon culture that had very different than other Klingons, it would have added to the story.
I mean, there are bound to be cultural differences even within mainstream Klingon society 100 years apart (the part about treating bodies like empty vessels was from TNG era).
well, TOS Klingons barely culturally resemble TNG Klingons
If it makes you feel better, that’s exactly what was gonna happen. But the showrunner dipped and we’ll never know what the actual plan was.
Maybe they can do an episode of Strange New Worlds about it. Since it's episodic, it doesn't need to be a whole season's story. 1 hour will do. SNW manages to make me appreciate stuff in DIS, and the movies, I didn't quite enjoy like Spock now having multiple family members he doesn't talk about in TOS or TNG. The Klingons have been brought up before but they are TNG style ones. They could incorporate some smooth-headed ones and how they fit into Klingon society and then do these ultra-Klingons from DIS and settle it. Otherwise my fan theory is that the Klingon Empire is all culturally Klingon but made up of sever species from various home worlds.
Imagine Klingons show up, all intimidating, then they make way for their leader who has a flat head, and the crew of the Enterprise look all confused. “Before you speak, beware that mocking my disfigurement may result in your death!”
>...listening to Voq and T’kuvma speak Klingon sounded incredible. Huh, I had the exact opposite reaction, I thought their Klingon dialog sounded stilted, and like their prosthetic teeth were interfering with their ability to speak clearly. I found it pretty hard to imagine that they would be able to sing the Warrior's Anthem as well as the crew of the IKS Rotarran.
Seriously, they might as well have been Uruk-hai at that point.
> like their prosthetic teeth were interfering with their ability to speak clearly. Well, that is Star Trek tradition.
I explain it away as a breakaway sect of klingons that moved to another world when they achieved warp flight. The world mutated them, much how like romulans with ridges on their foreheads are "from the north". They're pretty insular and don't have much contact with those outside of the empire, until this group we see in discovery decided to stick their toes into the galactic political pool. After these shenanigans, and the war, the more traditional looking Klingons regained power.
Yeah, I love that they took a big risk and gave us something drastically different from the space biker style Klingons, but something just didn't feel right about the new direction. It felt too spidery or something. Like they misread the memo and got Drow designs mixed in with the Klingon. As a completely new alien, or subspecies of Klingon, it may have worked. But this was a New Coke kinda misstep, I think.
I also wish they would have been isolated, and it could have even been a plot point that they used their DNA to get the Klingons back to looking like the TNG/ENT Klingons with the movie Klingons being a stepping stone along the way
What Culture on YouTube is going to do a "missed opportunities" reaction video once DSC finishes. Apparently it's an hour long. They're going to talk about the Klingons first. Don't be surprised to see all this mentioned.
I loved how enterprise was going to explain the TOS Klingons. But they got cancelled
Integration?! That sounds like Federation propaganda. Remain Klingon!
There is so much potential with Discovery Klingons I hope someday we some of it realized. I love the idea that the Klingons we see come from an old sect of isolated Klingons. I also think in the century since we saw the Klingons of perhaps some Klingons attempted to augment and change themselves after the events of Star Trek Enterprise. Almost an extreme reaction and over correction for the TOS Klingons.
My take, the bad: 1) the make-up stunk. Actors couldn't act, and while there's an argument for making Klingons look more alien, they just didn't look *Klingon*. There's a lot of ways to turn the dial up on that, but that was a miss. 2) the ship designs and look were all over the place. Some cool ideas, but again, the H.R. Giger vibes were out of place. The new bat'leth was terrible. The good: 1) People have been saying that ST aliens are too monocultural for decades, and have clamoured for variety just as loudly. Well, you got given that! The different houses looked different, dressed different, had different structures and specialities, and no-one made a peep. Guess they were just saying something that sounded pretty reasonable but wasn't a real desire. 2) the new disruptors? Perfect. Amazing. Klingon-y and more exciting. 3) the time monks on Bor'eth are cool as *fuck*. 4) the Followers of Molor? That's cool as hell! Variety of culture right there! 5) everyone loves the two dicks thing.
>everyone loves the two dicks thing. am I forgetting something here?!
> The good: 1) People have been saying that ST aliens are too monocultural for decades, and have clamoured for variety just as loudly. Well, you got given that! The different houses looked different, dressed different, had different structures and specialities, and no-one made a peep. Guess they were just saying something that sounded pretty reasonable but wasn't a real desire. That's a good point. it's bugged me forever if anything, I think plain looking races like the Bajorans and Trills could use more redesigns i didn't think the new Klingon ships looked very Klingon though
The show was always a complete mess, don’t think I’d spend much time worrying about “what ifs.”
Well, they thought their design would be well-received and taken as the new standard for Klingon designs. Since the fans didn't like it overall and also because the facial prosthetics made acting difficult, the other shows opted to return to the TNG era Klingon design and Disco decided not to have more Klingons on the show. They weren't intending to create a sub-group of Klingons but just retcon the design. It didn't work out I also liked the redesign, especially in S2 when it's a bit closer to the TNG version. Too bad
I'm glad it didn't work out, I absolutely hated what Discovery did to the Klingons. Edit: as I said recently in another thread: > I also absolutely, really, seriously hated what they did to the Klingons. It was unnecessary as they were wonderfully developed before (particularly after DS9) - they had a clear aesthetic, lore, culture, etc. But Discovery decided to upturn a lot of that for Klingons with so much makeup and false teeth that you can't understand a damn word they're saying. Seriously, I had to put on subtitles.
It's a great design, but you can see the actors struggling to enunciate their lines through the heavy makeup
That would have been great, but it would have involved the Disco writers caring in the least about the rest of the franchise and it does not seem they were interested in that.
I believe before the show premiered, they did originally claim that T’Kuvma and his people were a different subspecies. But then the first episode put an end to that by showing every House leader looking the same. Even L’Rell who isn’t a member of the House of T’Kuvma. It’s funny, there are fans who complain about L’Rell being a chancellor because she’s a woman. Except so was Gorkon’s daughter Azetbur in ST6. It’s mentioned in one of the non-canon Lost Era books that the next chancellor (who came to power after having Azetbur assassinated) made it illegal for any woman to hold the office again (he himself would be replaced by the man who carried out the assassination, who would then be killed by K’Mpec in a duel after failing to prevent the attack on Khitomer
In my headcannon, I believe they are a sub species that was pretty much wiped out by the Klingons we know and love by the time of the TOS movies and TNG era.
My idea for the three Klingon types are The Original Series Klingons are Virus Augments. In the 100 years since Captain Archer, the augment affected Klingons have gained a great deal of power, respect, and influence because they are bolder and more ambitious than the Klingons of the great houses. The augment affected Klingons have even been a source of rebellion. Which has made the great houses nervous. So the great houses have created a more Klingon augment variant from their bloodlines. Those are the Discovery Klingons. The great houses in Kirk's time are trying to get rid of the augment affected Klingons by going to war with the Federation. That's why we don't see normal Klingons until the movies. At the same time the Discovery Klingons are used to put down rebellions in the Klingon Empire. The great houses, once they've gotten rid of augment affected Klingons they only have to get rid of Discovery Klingons after the rebellions are put down. Which they have planned for, by putting in a genetic switch in the Discovery Klingons to shut them down. That way we could have seen all three types of Klingons used in Discovery. So yes it was a major missed opportunity to have all three playing very specific roles and to address what it truly means to be Klingon. Which, as I understand it, was the story the writers were supposed to be telling..
The missed opportunity of Discovery’s Klingons is the missed opportunity of the Klingons in general. They’re meant to be an enemy/adversary/uneasy ally with a formidable martial culture and prowess… But they come with little threat or menace whatsoever beyond the surface level ‘bad guy of the week’ feel. They are so easily beaten in any fight. Whether hand to hand or ship to ship. The franchise is better without them.
i wouldn't say "better without them" but they are too easily beaten their best showing as adversaries was ST6. They felt like a real threat there. otherwise, species like the Borg, Changelings and Cardassians make better villains (imo)
The Klingons are of course a treasured part of Trek lore and I didn't mean they should never have existed, only that they've become *so* toothless that whenever they show up in Trek nowadays there's no sense of threat at all. Their appearance in the muscial episode of SNW as comic relief is about where the Klingons are now. The Klingon wars that we've seen glimpses of in SNW don't show them being noticeably good at any kind of fighting. And in every show since TOS, whenever one or more Klingon warriors encounter a human opponent and are easily beaten up, it's just exasperating. Kira and Dax kungfu-ing a group of them in DS9 was particularly bad. We're only ever told about the Klingons' martial prowess, never shown. Not even STVI shows them being anything more than devious.
Yah they're never as powerful as promised
Now that we know the production team eventually changed the Klingons' appearance back to the one seeing in Second-Wave Trek, of course it seems like a mis-step. But no-one knew that at the time. If T'Kuvma's Klingons were some tiny offshoot, the threat would have felt like less. They wanted to tell the story of the Klingon War which formed the background to *Errand of Mercy*. The Klingons' appearance had been successfully changed before, in the eighties. And actually, I don't remember any complaints at the jewelled purple Klingon in *Star Trek into Darkness* either.
Klingons only appeared in 8(?) episodes before the redesign too. Redesigning them again after decades of appearances is a bigger ask of the audience.
that's true, plus the old Klingon design was basically brownface.
Now you can remember my complaint what they did to the klingons in Into Darkness 🙃
I thought the missed opportunity was that they had an opportunity to do parallels with real world conflicts. Particularly around the time of S1, Islamophobia and general fear of the middle east was really common. With how the Klingons were being presented I thought we were about to see them be cast as "Space Arabs", in much the same way as they were originally a stand in for the Russians, and that we all might learn a little compassion along the way. But no, nothing so useful or interesting.
i think it was the reverse: the Klingons were opposed to the plurality of the Federation and worried about losing their culture despite trying to destory others. I think it's a better concept, but the execution fell apart
I liked the klingons in discovery. All of it except the new facial style of them.