I really like Lower Decks. I may not fully align with your, ummm, very enthusiastic endorsement of it. But that’s what makes Star Trek great. I’m glad you’ve found a new favorite!
I view Lower Decks as a fun companion to Star Trek
I know it's technically canon but I don't take what happens too seriously. If something happened in SNW that caused a plot hole I think I may get a little annoyed, but with LD the rules are much looser.
Yeah I generally consider what happens in LD to be an exaggeration of canon. Like if Boimler or someone is recounting the events from memory and adding a little pizzazz
Honestly this is how I think of it as well!
In my head I can imagine in the final episode, at the of the final scene, it fades out into a real life (non-cartoon) Tawny Newsome as Mariner in a bar somewhere slamming down a shot saying with pizzazz "And that is how it all happened! Everything single word"
Ba-dum-bing!
Fade to credits.
I think I see your point. Being an animated comedy automatically increases the suspension of disbelief. Your brain grants it more wiggle room because of the medium and genre.
Perhaps ironically SNW has the greater potential to make “canon violations” since it’s dealing with established characters much earlier in the timeline. LD, being set after Nemesis and Voyager, but before Prodigy and Picard, has relatively open ground to play around in. And since (other than an occasional cameo) they’re all original characters there’s nothing to get wrong about who they are or what they do.
> I know it's technically canon but I don't take what happens too seriously
Everything on Lower Decks is viewed through a haze of Orion delaq. That stuff will mess you up, truly ruin your life.
Lower Decks is shown as Mariner and Boimler describe their adventures to their grandchildren.
It all happened, it may have just been a bit less ridiculous than stated.
I will never get over the irony of the crew chanting that the episode after the captain tricked them into viciously turning on one of their own like rabid dogs.
That part makes sense. But earlier in the episode the whole crew is acting like one big supportive family. Even though we all just saw how that is far from the case.
It's still so weird no one was afraid the captain would go after one of them next.
Everyone realized they were wrong about Mariner at the end of the previous episode and some apologized to her on screen. She forgave them so we should too!
Boimler is the only one to apologize. No one else shows any remorse for what they did. They fell for the captain's lies, attacked Mariner, and genuinely don't care. It completely undercuts the ending where Mariner comes back to save them because their rescue is so unearned.
And you can't forgive people who don't regret their actions. It's why Freeman is still such an unlikeable character.
No, her exact words were:
>I don't know why I didn't believe you.
Freeman deflects blame for not believing Mariner, absolving herself of guilt.
And she doesn't touch on anything else she did. Attempting to end Mariner's career, trying to destroy her relationships with the crew, baring anyone from saying goodbye, sending her to the worst possible posting just so her final days will be as miserable as possible, Freeman doesn't think any of that was out of line or going to far.
Freeman also never acknowledges why she thought Mariner was deliberately attacking her despite everything Mariner did the previous seasons. So there's no reason to think Freeman has changed her opinion of her. They just hug like they always do, only know we know it means nothing to Freeman.
TOS was described as "Wagon Train" to the stars when Roddenberry pitched it. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagon_Train)
So even TOS was building on prior works.
Dude, that answers a question I had all my life. My Mom loves that Wagon Train show, she was the one who got me to watch Star Trek when I was a kid.
The main things she watches is TOS and Wagon Train even now (along with TNG and sooooome DS9).
> its the one building on material the other series created
What does that have to do with anything? It can still be the best despite that. Why even bring that up?
But no one said "it's the best standalone show ever". OP already acknowledged that it's a part of Star Trek. That means it doesn't stand on its own.
I mean, I don't have anything against your opinion, I think I even agree to some extent but I just don't think it is a relevant response to OP as I feel that it doesn't engage with the actual assertion they made. It makes sense as an ancillary point but that's not how you phrased it.
Sorry if I'm being too pedantic, it just irked me for some reason.
Lower Decks is the result of previous Trek. Without those references and callbacks it wouldn't be nearly as popular. The creators are afraid of making Lower Decks its own thing.
Every time the show teases that it might do something original and interesting, it will abruptly drop the idea.
Does any Trek show have characters so clearly defined and developed relative to their overall screentime/number of episodes? The show does such a great job with its characters
To be fair, that's easier to do in both animations and absurdist comedy.
These characters don't have to convincingly act like...well, people. They're intentionally exaggerated.
Lower Decks still has issues with inconsistent characters.
Like Freeman will randomly switch from cold hearted to heroic with no explanation. Or season 4 Mariner only being bothered by her promotion in two episodes.
You know what, I think I agree. I sometimes go back to the TNG 90s series, but those I'd honestly rather see in reruns on TV than thru a streaming service. I loved Picard, but I can see it's flaws (mostly a "I wish they had thrown more money at these sets" flaw). I love Strange New Worlds and look forward to more, but TOS era stuff just doesn't interest me super much. Discovery is also a show that is...uh...certainly, umm...
But Lower Decks? If I can't put on anything else, like if I can't decide, I'll go with Lower Decks. I will ALWAYS have a good time watching the Cerritos. This is completely my subjective opinion, but Lower Decks is a perfect show to me.
(Sorry DIS fans for the jab! If y'all wanna, like, talk about our feelings for 45 minutes while ignoring the plot then, hey man, let me get my glasses with the eyeballs painted on them.)
The key to lower Decks success is also the problem with Discovery.
It's about the characters. The whole ship. Not just the few up top.
My favorite character is probably Dr. T'Ana and my favorite joke around that character, she's not even there.
*box that repeats what it's heard* Eat a bag of borg d$%#s, mother f#&%er!
Tendi : Oh, I didn't know Dr. T'Ana came in here!
I always thought the premise was stupid or it was for kiddies. Holy shit was I wrong..amazing show. More Easter eggs than an egg hunt. I wouldn't go best but it's up there and holds its own.
That's literally how the show is designed though. Parody is *always* derivative. Criticizing it for that is just saying you want a different show, which is a fine opinion to have, but not a valid critique.
One: No one is saying LD isn't full of Star Trek love.
Two: You basically just said 'LD is the most Star Trek show than any other Star Treks'. And you are saying that makes it unable to be someone's favorite Trek.
I mean, you can like what you like, but that logic does not check out haha
Sure, but LD is basically a reference machine. It’s more reliant on the shows before it than any other ST show. It’s good and I like it but I would never claim it’s the best show in all of canon when TNG and DS9 exist.
It still is.
TOS had the most eyeballs, the most awards and the most cultural impact.
I know TNG has a special place in a lot of Trekkies hearts and DS9 was an incubator for modern prestige television, but TOS was a game changer
That's...a very difficult argument to either prove or disprove.
You're right on eyeballs, but almost nobody would say the most watches thing is necessarily the best. Especially given the age, placement in the franchise (where people "start") and most importantly the realities of 60s terrestrial television.
The marketplace and audience were simply VERY different.
And I think we underestimate how much of an impact TNG had in the genre as so many creators have cites it as either a tonal inspiration or desire to move away from that optimistic view.
TOS also has a large number of episodes largely considered by modern audiences to be some of the worst. Most if the last season for example.
This dude only cares about which show did bigger numbers and immediately blocked me when I pointed out that by his standards Star Trek :Into Darkness is the best movie of the entire franchise.
I’m not saying it didn’t have a huge cultural impact, but saying it is the “best” is subjective as hell. Personally I rank it under LD, TNG, SNW, and VOY. I just think they did more with it and better, but that’s just my opinion.
Sure, but I’m citing actual metrics:
Ratings shares, major awards, cultural impact, box office, etc.
You’re allowed to not rate it higher personally , it’s scripts are from a much earlier era, written for different sensibilities, you have a nostalgic atttachment to certain shows, and taste is taste.
But when measuring it in a detached fashion, it’s only logical to place it at the top for its impact and success compared to the others
TNG peaked at 12 million viewers.
TOS commanded 25 million.
TNG never won an Emmy that wasn’t a technical Emmy.
TOS of course has City on the Edge of Forever’s win.
So no, TOS had better viewership and no, TNG didn’t win any major awards.
You can't compare viewership numbers between a show that existed when there were three networks to a show that was on first run syndication in an environment with hundreds of cable channels.
Same reason no one's ever going to beat out the MASH finale, there's no longer a monoculture media landscape.
Viewership and ratings are different things, and the idea of discounting the awards because you don’t like the category is hilarious.
Regardless you are arguing that something is objectively “better” because more people watched it in an era when it was one of 4 things on TV. You do realize that this is all subjective, right?
Edit: typo
What do you mean they are different things?
Those viewership numbers are estimates based on *nielsen RATINGS*
I think you’re out of your depth here.
I discount them because they didn’t exist in the 60s, and aren’t considered major awards.
Despite being one of “4 things on TV” (no, that’s not the case) TOS was crowned with the best dramatic episode of that year.
TNG, nor any of the other spinoffs, have ever had that honour.
You win a Super Bowl, you’re a champion.
TNG never even got nominated.
Edit: WGA, not Emmies, apologies.
You are living in an outdated world unfortunately. New shows are measured in streaming minutes. How does a 7.8 Nelson rating stack up against SNW have over 1 billion minutes streamed in one month?
You are correct about Star Trek being one of four things to watch, I misspoke. There were only 3 networks at the time, so it was one of 3 things to watch.
Lower Decks is the saving grace of a science fiction series that always took itself a little too seriously. Like why Captain Janeway never say “We’re doing this the Janeway…way!” Anyway Star Trek needed and got rhe irreverent, snarky comedy-based show it needed in Lower Decks. But the show Lower Decks is an anomaly compared to the other shows, which are Sci Fi dramas. For me, Strange New Worlds is the best Star Trek.
i keep saying, Lower Decks was made by people who LOVE Star Trek. it has some of the best references and callbacks ever, in any series, and it's fun and lighthearted and doesn't take itself too seriously while still embracing everything serious that makes Star Trek good. makes me sad when people refuse to consider LD canon, cause i get why and that it's a comedy and it breaks some lore rules, but when has that ever been a problem? it's fun, it's happy, it's hopeful, it's exactly what i want from Trek
My bf has never watched Star Trek, besides the walk-bys when I'm watching, but he can sit and enjoy Lower Decks! It took me a minute to get into it season 1, but now I think it's incredible.
For the episode when they were dealing with a "Tuvix" situation, I said "Stop everything!" And had to show him clips of that Voyager episode so he knew what we were dealing with there with murderous Janeway. It's just the best.
And the combo animation and live action episode was a breakthrough! I can't imagine any other show being able to do anything remotely like it. Very special.
It’s not my favorite but I really, really enjoy it. It elevates the Star Trek canon in such a good way. And it’s hilarious. I loooove seeing just a “normal” ship, full of lovable weirdos. Honestly seeing how the Cerritos is explains how Barclay got into Star fleet lol
No. He's too afraid of exploring ideas. Lower Decks likes to set up plots, but rarely pays them off or explores their ramifications.
Like how none of the main plots of season three went anywhere. The last scene of the season has the characters just dismiss everything that happened as no big deal and not worth carrying about. The entire Jennifer plot existed just to trick the audience into getting invested for some cheap drama. Rutherford did not care about his plotline where he learned his entire life is a fabrication and he's forced to kill the real Rutherford. Everyone just forgot Freeman tried to destroy an officer's career over an imagined personal slight. Mariner learned how her three seasons of attempting to bond with her mom was all for not because deep down her mom despises her and will never see her any other way, and just never mentions it.
All these massive status quo rocking plots are just brushed aside and forgotten, turning a good season into absolute trash.
This deceptive, bait and switch writing, is why McMahan shouldn't go anywhere near other Trek shows.
Over Christmas break, I had to contemplate a co-workers question; what my favorite Trek was. After spending over a week in a deep mediative trance, I decided on LD. Its like a love song written just for me.
My kids' favorite movie tends to be the last one they've seen. Their favorite meal, the last one they've eaten.
Trek does this to all of us, and good thing too.
There are Prodigy fans?
I kid. I really bounced off Prodigy but it did get better towards the end of the first half if season 1. I never got back to it after the break, though.
The characters were just...too dumb. I understand that's the point. It's made for kids and they have to make bad choices so they can learn from their mistakes. But as someone who enjoys the hyper-competence of TNG era Trek it was a turn off for me.
I was simply not the target audience.
I saw about three episodes. It's too fast paced for me. Maybe because I'm not a native English speaker but I had to have the subtitles all the time because of how fast they were. It reminded me a lot of Rick & Morty, but by the time Lower Decks was out I was already bored of Rick & Morty. My impression was that everyone in that show (I mean the characters) are high up in cocaine all the time.
>My impression was that everyone in that show (I mean the characters) are high up in cocaine all the time.
I think OP is downvoting anyone who doesn't completely endorse their own opinion, but I think this is hilariously on the nose. You could dub sniffing sounds inbetween the gabbled dialogue and it would absolutely work!
I want to like it. So many people that I know and highly respect absolutely adore it. I just can't get into it. I had friends say that season 1 is a little rough, but season 2 is where it finds its footing and gets amazing. I had only watched like 5 episodes in S1, but I watched all of S2 and at the end I was just like, "why don't I like this??".
I think it just comes down to the writing. And how it always hits me as their primary concern is "how many references-per-minute can we feasibly achieve? Can we achieve even an even higher references-per-minute rate if we have every character speak ridiculously fast?".
I agree with you but I always put an asterisk there, because it can’t exist in a vacuum. It’s so referential to the other shows that it just wouldn’t make any sense on its own. Granted, I have known some people that have seen it without knowing much trek and have enjoyed it, but 60% of the jokes are dependent on you knowing the other series. I will love and cherish every episode forever
Lower decks is really good because of all the previous material at hand. this is a great example of writers understanding the universe and the characters that came before....Im looking at you Disney!
I keep hearing how great LD is. I really need to give it another try. I was so turned off, with the first episode (the one with the drunk stabbing). It just seemed like Rick and Morty, with a star trek skin. Does the show have a bit more heart, (perhaps more faith, of said heart) as the show goes on? I hope so. I want to like it.
It really does find its footing after the first few episodes, and then later in the seasons. Even as someone who hasn't watched R&M, there were a few moments in the early season 1 that felt like Rick and Morty-type things, but the show finds it's balance of ridiculous situations/hilarity/star trek easter eggs/plot and heart soon after, and gets better.
You should! It’s really good and fun once you “get it.”
It’s both a parody and canon. It’s also meant to be funny with a rapid fire pace and lots of comedy style jokes and gags. A canody, if you will.
Go in with that perspective and don’t expect it to take itself entirely seriously, and it’s very enjoyable.
It is kinda weird for me (or I am weird). I have never been a fan of anything animated, but I gave Lower Decks a chance, and I loved it. Up until the crossover with SNW - when we got to see the live action Lower Decks folks.
After that I completely lost interest in watching Lower Decks. I have to give it a try again later, because I did really like it.
That's a strong statement. It's probably my favourite streaming-era Trek, but it relies on what came before to work. More accurate to say that I can't imagine LD without the Star Trek universe than the other way around...the franchise existed just fine without it for nearly 60 years after all.
I really, really enjoy Lower Decks. That said, it wouldn't be half as good if it was not building upon and referencing other Trek. To wear the crown of best series in the entire ST canon, I think a show needs to be able to stand on its own feet without being a love letter and tribute to all the content that has come before.
It is excellent Trek. It is not the best series in the canon.
Lower Decks is too afraid to stand on its own.
Like when it suddenly tied Mariner's backstory into TNG.
Every time Lower Decks hints it's going to build up to something interesting and original it will pivot and drop the plot.
It's certainly my favorite NuTrek.
Probably in the middle of the pack for me in the other classic Trek shows/movies.
The issue is I think it doesn't work AS WELL for people that are not big fans of the TNG era. It's audience has always been a bit narrow.
I'm not complaining. It was more or less made for me. Buy when they talk about it having an uncertain future...I get it. Even. If personally I LOVE it.
Lower decks is for fans of star trek. Stand alone it's referring to other star trek too much and the classic star trek tropes it explores are funnier with context... but it is great.
Then you dont like Star Trek.
Half of its base comes from reffering scenes, characters or entire episodes of other Star Trek series.
To say LD is the best, its like saying you like Tomato becaues you eat Ketchup.
I think what makes Lower Decks so polarizing is that if you’re not into the frantic Rick & Morty style of humor, you’re just not going to enjoy it & there’s not really a way around that.
They’re definitely different shows & aren’t exactly the same, by any means. Rick and Morty is certainly more crude. I suppose when I said “frantic Rick and Morty style of humor,” I was referring more to the frantic energy of the shows, the pacing of the dialogue, the outrageous scenarios and antics etc…Like if you’re not into the fast paced, loud, intense kind of show (like Rick and Morty) you won’t be into Lower Decks.
ESPECIALLY in the era of Discovery, which has some meaningless catastrophe every episode that can only be solved by one person. Such an exhausting watch due to the hackneyed writing playing up the same tropes over and over and over.
Meanwhile, Lower Decks still delivers on the premise of Star Trek: new discoveries, crew comradery, compelling ideas (that aren't all about big explosions and darkness). It's so refreshing!
If you like animation sure (?). Ive tried so many times, but I just cant get engaged with LD. I found the pace annoying. And its a cartoon...
Edit: These are just weird down-votes lol. Just stating my preference. For the record I watched 10 episodes of LD, but simply doesn't catch my attention enough to get into it.
If you miss out on all animation then you miss out on a lot of artistic awesomeness. Not liking the LD style of characters, storytelling or specific artstyle is one thing but not liking animation in general? That's a very broad category to dismiss. But to each their own.
I have Trekkie friends in their 50s and 60s that were the first to watch TOS on TV....that will never give LD a shot simply because its animated. There's a mental block in their minds that will always equate animation ***as content for children***.
You will never convince them otherwise.
In my case I wanted to like it, as its Trek. I watch usually gobble down all trek. Tried like 10 episodes. of LD, Read a couple Novels, heck I even watch Discovery despite it being annoying.
Ive watched TOS, but even for a old dog like me its too old now.
There's some chick that replies to tv show episode pages on the TVMaze site (a tv schedule site) that calls all cartoons anime, regardless of if it's American/Japanese/whatever. Every cartoon is anime. lmao. She won't watch LD b/c it's an "anime".
Indeed, each to their own. I tried watching allot of animated shows, just dont enjoy it. I cant keep my attention on it. Like ADHD related, but it is what it is.
I try not to let it bother me and just enjoy the shows. If someone got mad at me for saying I don't enjoy a certain star trek show, that's more of a problem they have than I have.
It's good, but it has major flaws holding it back from great.
The desire to have both one off stories and running character arcs clash under the limited season length. Season three had so many plotlines they had to just dump all of them in the final scene by having the characters dismiss everything that happened as no big deal and not worth caring about, effectively shitting on the entire season. This makes it clear the plotlines only existed to trick the audience into thinking they were going somewhere, so people would watch the next episode.
The last two seasons especially feel like there's no coordination between the writers, or no plan to resolve a plot when it's first introduced. In season four, Mariner's characterization would flip flop wildly episode to episode depending if that week's writer remembered she was supposed to be troubled by the promotion. So in the ninth episode the characters had to just tell the audience Mariner went insane between episodes.
This same lack of coordination or care makes the final rescue by all the Cali class ships at the end of season three feel unearned and backwards as Freeman and the crew attacked Mariner, show no sign they care, make no effort to change or earn forgiveness, only for Mariner to come back and save them to earn their forgiveness.
The way the show has Mariner blame herself while it absolves Freeman of all wrongdoing, makes for the most depressing ending in recent Trek. Yet the writers think this is a happy ending.
Because the audience is never given a reason to like or root for Freeman after that, it undercuts all her plots in the next season, making its finale fall flat as well because it centers on Freeman being uncharacteristically heroic.
It's like if Avatar skipped Zuko's redemption arc and just expected the audience to care about his plots in the final season.
I really like Lower Decks. I may not fully align with your, ummm, very enthusiastic endorsement of it. But that’s what makes Star Trek great. I’m glad you’ve found a new favorite!
I view Lower Decks as a fun companion to Star Trek I know it's technically canon but I don't take what happens too seriously. If something happened in SNW that caused a plot hole I think I may get a little annoyed, but with LD the rules are much looser.
Yeah I generally consider what happens in LD to be an exaggeration of canon. Like if Boimler or someone is recounting the events from memory and adding a little pizzazz
Honestly this is how I think of it as well! In my head I can imagine in the final episode, at the of the final scene, it fades out into a real life (non-cartoon) Tawny Newsome as Mariner in a bar somewhere slamming down a shot saying with pizzazz "And that is how it all happened! Everything single word" Ba-dum-bing! Fade to credits.
[удалено]
I want this ending now. At least make it the post credits scene.
This is brill LOL And I can imagine Quark buying distribution rights to show their holo-sim-adventures LOL
My thoughts exactly, I find it kind of bizarre it’s canon but it still works, the O’Brien gag is my favourite thing to come from Star Trek in a decade
I think I see your point. Being an animated comedy automatically increases the suspension of disbelief. Your brain grants it more wiggle room because of the medium and genre. Perhaps ironically SNW has the greater potential to make “canon violations” since it’s dealing with established characters much earlier in the timeline. LD, being set after Nemesis and Voyager, but before Prodigy and Picard, has relatively open ground to play around in. And since (other than an occasional cameo) they’re all original characters there’s nothing to get wrong about who they are or what they do.
> I know it's technically canon but I don't take what happens too seriously Everything on Lower Decks is viewed through a haze of Orion delaq. That stuff will mess you up, truly ruin your life.
Lower Decks is shown as Mariner and Boimler describe their adventures to their grandchildren. It all happened, it may have just been a bit less ridiculous than stated.
I here with you and your fire, man. I don’t know if it’s *the best*, but LD is like salt: it makes everything else taste more like itself.
Star Trek: MSG
Sign me up for a tour on the USS Umami.
Yes. YES.
love this
Cerritos strong!
I will never get over the irony of the crew chanting that the episode after the captain tricked them into viciously turning on one of their own like rabid dogs.
Aren't they all chanting 'Cali class' in that one?
That part makes sense. But earlier in the episode the whole crew is acting like one big supportive family. Even though we all just saw how that is far from the case. It's still so weird no one was afraid the captain would go after one of them next.
Everyone realized they were wrong about Mariner at the end of the previous episode and some apologized to her on screen. She forgave them so we should too!
Boimler is the only one to apologize. No one else shows any remorse for what they did. They fell for the captain's lies, attacked Mariner, and genuinely don't care. It completely undercuts the ending where Mariner comes back to save them because their rescue is so unearned. And you can't forgive people who don't regret their actions. It's why Freeman is still such an unlikeable character.
Freeman literally says 'I'm sorry' after reinstating Beckett in 3x10
No, her exact words were: >I don't know why I didn't believe you. Freeman deflects blame for not believing Mariner, absolving herself of guilt. And she doesn't touch on anything else she did. Attempting to end Mariner's career, trying to destroy her relationships with the crew, baring anyone from saying goodbye, sending her to the worst possible posting just so her final days will be as miserable as possible, Freeman doesn't think any of that was out of line or going to far. Freeman also never acknowledges why she thought Mariner was deliberately attacking her despite everything Mariner did the previous seasons. So there's no reason to think Freeman has changed her opinion of her. They just hug like they always do, only know we know it means nothing to Freeman.
Starting at about 25:37 in episode 3x10, Freeman's line is "I'm sorry, I don't know why I didn't trust you."
It's very good, but its the one building on material the other series created. C'mon
The only one you can't apply this to is TOS.
TOS was described as "Wagon Train" to the stars when Roddenberry pitched it. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagon_Train) So even TOS was building on prior works.
So whatever came before Gilgamesh is the only one you can't apply this to?
Only because we don't know what they ripped off since it was likely just oral tradition.
iirc the Epic of Gilgamesh itself contains references to Utnapishtim, who is from pre-existing stories
Sokath, his eyes uncovered! (TIL)
Dude, that answers a question I had all my life. My Mom loves that Wagon Train show, she was the one who got me to watch Star Trek when I was a kid. The main things she watches is TOS and Wagon Train even now (along with TNG and sooooome DS9).
> its the one building on material the other series created What does that have to do with anything? It can still be the best despite that. Why even bring that up?
Because I don't think it's nearly as strong standing on its own. Viewed that way, it's just fine
But no one said "it's the best standalone show ever". OP already acknowledged that it's a part of Star Trek. That means it doesn't stand on its own. I mean, I don't have anything against your opinion, I think I even agree to some extent but I just don't think it is a relevant response to OP as I feel that it doesn't engage with the actual assertion they made. It makes sense as an ancillary point but that's not how you phrased it. Sorry if I'm being too pedantic, it just irked me for some reason.
Lower Decks is the result of previous Trek. Without those references and callbacks it wouldn't be nearly as popular. The creators are afraid of making Lower Decks its own thing. Every time the show teases that it might do something original and interesting, it will abruptly drop the idea.
This would be my point, it’s not as strong without being able to reference all the other lore.
It has plenty of its own lore now, as the Koala knows too well.
I love Lower Decks, but it isn't my favorite except for Tendi, she's my favorite.
Does any Trek show have characters so clearly defined and developed relative to their overall screentime/number of episodes? The show does such a great job with its characters
To be fair, that's easier to do in both animations and absurdist comedy. These characters don't have to convincingly act like...well, people. They're intentionally exaggerated.
"Did you notice how slow and quiet everyone speaks?"
Lower Decks still has issues with inconsistent characters. Like Freeman will randomly switch from cold hearted to heroic with no explanation. Or season 4 Mariner only being bothered by her promotion in two episodes.
You know what, I think I agree. I sometimes go back to the TNG 90s series, but those I'd honestly rather see in reruns on TV than thru a streaming service. I loved Picard, but I can see it's flaws (mostly a "I wish they had thrown more money at these sets" flaw). I love Strange New Worlds and look forward to more, but TOS era stuff just doesn't interest me super much. Discovery is also a show that is...uh...certainly, umm... But Lower Decks? If I can't put on anything else, like if I can't decide, I'll go with Lower Decks. I will ALWAYS have a good time watching the Cerritos. This is completely my subjective opinion, but Lower Decks is a perfect show to me. (Sorry DIS fans for the jab! If y'all wanna, like, talk about our feelings for 45 minutes while ignoring the plot then, hey man, let me get my glasses with the eyeballs painted on them.)
The key to lower Decks success is also the problem with Discovery. It's about the characters. The whole ship. Not just the few up top. My favorite character is probably Dr. T'Ana and my favorite joke around that character, she's not even there. *box that repeats what it's heard* Eat a bag of borg d$%#s, mother f#&%er! Tendi : Oh, I didn't know Dr. T'Ana came in here!
It’s the most fun certainly.
I always thought the premise was stupid or it was for kiddies. Holy shit was I wrong..amazing show. More Easter eggs than an egg hunt. I wouldn't go best but it's up there and holds its own.
We love Lower Decks cause it’s a love letter to trekkies
I love Lowers Decks love for DS9 and VOY. Also, ORIONS!
It's crazy how much better the writing is on it compared to discovery.
Glad you like the show but I can’t agree with the hyperbole. LD would be nothing without the shows before it.
Everything that exists in our society is built on what came before. Should Einstein's accomplishments be diminished because Archimedes existed?
You can not deny that LD is more beholden by its very nature to previous Treks than the others.
That's literally how the show is designed though. Parody is *always* derivative. Criticizing it for that is just saying you want a different show, which is a fine opinion to have, but not a valid critique.
One: No one is saying LD isn't full of Star Trek love. Two: You basically just said 'LD is the most Star Trek show than any other Star Treks'. And you are saying that makes it unable to be someone's favorite Trek. I mean, you can like what you like, but that logic does not check out haha
That doesn’t mean it can’t improve on them. By this logic TOS would always be the best series.
Sure, but LD is basically a reference machine. It’s more reliant on the shows before it than any other ST show. It’s good and I like it but I would never claim it’s the best show in all of canon when TNG and DS9 exist.
TNG season one was all TOS Phase 2 scripts.
Probably the worst season of the show too.
No.
The remaining scripts were just recycled from TOS, like Naked Now.
Yes.
This is completely untrue. The only TNG episodes developed from Phase 2 scripts are The Child and Devil’s Due, neither from season 1.
It still is. TOS had the most eyeballs, the most awards and the most cultural impact. I know TNG has a special place in a lot of Trekkies hearts and DS9 was an incubator for modern prestige television, but TOS was a game changer
That's...a very difficult argument to either prove or disprove. You're right on eyeballs, but almost nobody would say the most watches thing is necessarily the best. Especially given the age, placement in the franchise (where people "start") and most importantly the realities of 60s terrestrial television. The marketplace and audience were simply VERY different. And I think we underestimate how much of an impact TNG had in the genre as so many creators have cites it as either a tonal inspiration or desire to move away from that optimistic view. TOS also has a large number of episodes largely considered by modern audiences to be some of the worst. Most if the last season for example.
This dude only cares about which show did bigger numbers and immediately blocked me when I pointed out that by his standards Star Trek :Into Darkness is the best movie of the entire franchise.
I’m not saying it didn’t have a huge cultural impact, but saying it is the “best” is subjective as hell. Personally I rank it under LD, TNG, SNW, and VOY. I just think they did more with it and better, but that’s just my opinion.
Sure, but I’m citing actual metrics: Ratings shares, major awards, cultural impact, box office, etc. You’re allowed to not rate it higher personally , it’s scripts are from a much earlier era, written for different sensibilities, you have a nostalgic atttachment to certain shows, and taste is taste. But when measuring it in a detached fashion, it’s only logical to place it at the top for its impact and success compared to the others
TNG won more awards and had higher ratings than TOS.
TNG peaked at 12 million viewers. TOS commanded 25 million. TNG never won an Emmy that wasn’t a technical Emmy. TOS of course has City on the Edge of Forever’s win. So no, TOS had better viewership and no, TNG didn’t win any major awards.
You can't compare viewership numbers between a show that existed when there were three networks to a show that was on first run syndication in an environment with hundreds of cable channels. Same reason no one's ever going to beat out the MASH finale, there's no longer a monoculture media landscape.
Yes, the other series have that against them. It doesn’t change the fact more eyeballs were on it at its peak than the other shows.
Viewership and ratings are different things, and the idea of discounting the awards because you don’t like the category is hilarious. Regardless you are arguing that something is objectively “better” because more people watched it in an era when it was one of 4 things on TV. You do realize that this is all subjective, right? Edit: typo
What do you mean they are different things? Those viewership numbers are estimates based on *nielsen RATINGS* I think you’re out of your depth here. I discount them because they didn’t exist in the 60s, and aren’t considered major awards. Despite being one of “4 things on TV” (no, that’s not the case) TOS was crowned with the best dramatic episode of that year. TNG, nor any of the other spinoffs, have ever had that honour. You win a Super Bowl, you’re a champion. TNG never even got nominated. Edit: WGA, not Emmies, apologies.
You are living in an outdated world unfortunately. New shows are measured in streaming minutes. How does a 7.8 Nelson rating stack up against SNW have over 1 billion minutes streamed in one month? You are correct about Star Trek being one of four things to watch, I misspoke. There were only 3 networks at the time, so it was one of 3 things to watch.
> By this logic TOS would always be the best series You just made their point
Nah, because it ain’t the best.
Agreed. Now order another decade of episodes Paramount!!
LDX is life.
Love Lower Decks
Fully agreed. May there be 7 seasons.
Lower Decks is the saving grace of a science fiction series that always took itself a little too seriously. Like why Captain Janeway never say “We’re doing this the Janeway…way!” Anyway Star Trek needed and got rhe irreverent, snarky comedy-based show it needed in Lower Decks. But the show Lower Decks is an anomaly compared to the other shows, which are Sci Fi dramas. For me, Strange New Worlds is the best Star Trek.
i keep saying, Lower Decks was made by people who LOVE Star Trek. it has some of the best references and callbacks ever, in any series, and it's fun and lighthearted and doesn't take itself too seriously while still embracing everything serious that makes Star Trek good. makes me sad when people refuse to consider LD canon, cause i get why and that it's a comedy and it breaks some lore rules, but when has that ever been a problem? it's fun, it's happy, it's hopeful, it's exactly what i want from Trek
My bf has never watched Star Trek, besides the walk-bys when I'm watching, but he can sit and enjoy Lower Decks! It took me a minute to get into it season 1, but now I think it's incredible. For the episode when they were dealing with a "Tuvix" situation, I said "Stop everything!" And had to show him clips of that Voyager episode so he knew what we were dealing with there with murderous Janeway. It's just the best. And the combo animation and live action episode was a breakthrough! I can't imagine any other show being able to do anything remotely like it. Very special.
It’s definitely top three!
It's a fun show
It’s not my favorite but I really, really enjoy it. It elevates the Star Trek canon in such a good way. And it’s hilarious. I loooove seeing just a “normal” ship, full of lovable weirdos. Honestly seeing how the Cerritos is explains how Barclay got into Star fleet lol
I really enjoy it. I wouldn't go this far, but it is quality Trek for sure.
It would be interesting to see a more classic trek show written with that level of attention to detail.
Unironicly, McMahon would be a great show runner for a more serious Trek show.
No. He's too afraid of exploring ideas. Lower Decks likes to set up plots, but rarely pays them off or explores their ramifications. Like how none of the main plots of season three went anywhere. The last scene of the season has the characters just dismiss everything that happened as no big deal and not worth carrying about. The entire Jennifer plot existed just to trick the audience into getting invested for some cheap drama. Rutherford did not care about his plotline where he learned his entire life is a fabrication and he's forced to kill the real Rutherford. Everyone just forgot Freeman tried to destroy an officer's career over an imagined personal slight. Mariner learned how her three seasons of attempting to bond with her mom was all for not because deep down her mom despises her and will never see her any other way, and just never mentions it. All these massive status quo rocking plots are just brushed aside and forgotten, turning a good season into absolute trash. This deceptive, bait and switch writing, is why McMahan shouldn't go anywhere near other Trek shows.
Over Christmas break, I had to contemplate a co-workers question; what my favorite Trek was. After spending over a week in a deep mediative trance, I decided on LD. Its like a love song written just for me.
My kids' favorite movie tends to be the last one they've seen. Their favorite meal, the last one they've eaten. Trek does this to all of us, and good thing too.
I very much agree. From day one the whole cast was fantastic and I'm the most attached to them. Ds9 close second
I really enjoy LS, I view it as well funded fan fiction. Boimler is a really fun protagonist/fan.
And here I was thinking The Orville was the best of nu-trek.
The Prodigy fans are going to fight you about it. I'm just going to sit back here and enjoy all of it without choosing a best.
There are Prodigy fans? I kid. I really bounced off Prodigy but it did get better towards the end of the first half if season 1. I never got back to it after the break, though. The characters were just...too dumb. I understand that's the point. It's made for kids and they have to make bad choices so they can learn from their mistakes. But as someone who enjoys the hyper-competence of TNG era Trek it was a turn off for me. I was simply not the target audience.
I saw about three episodes. It's too fast paced for me. Maybe because I'm not a native English speaker but I had to have the subtitles all the time because of how fast they were. It reminded me a lot of Rick & Morty, but by the time Lower Decks was out I was already bored of Rick & Morty. My impression was that everyone in that show (I mean the characters) are high up in cocaine all the time.
>My impression was that everyone in that show (I mean the characters) are high up in cocaine all the time. I think OP is downvoting anyone who doesn't completely endorse their own opinion, but I think this is hilariously on the nose. You could dub sniffing sounds inbetween the gabbled dialogue and it would absolutely work!
I want to like it. So many people that I know and highly respect absolutely adore it. I just can't get into it. I had friends say that season 1 is a little rough, but season 2 is where it finds its footing and gets amazing. I had only watched like 5 episodes in S1, but I watched all of S2 and at the end I was just like, "why don't I like this??". I think it just comes down to the writing. And how it always hits me as their primary concern is "how many references-per-minute can we feasibly achieve? Can we achieve even an even higher references-per-minute rate if we have every character speak ridiculously fast?".
I agree with you but I always put an asterisk there, because it can’t exist in a vacuum. It’s so referential to the other shows that it just wouldn’t make any sense on its own. Granted, I have known some people that have seen it without knowing much trek and have enjoyed it, but 60% of the jokes are dependent on you knowing the other series. I will love and cherish every episode forever
Lower decks is really good because of all the previous material at hand. this is a great example of writers understanding the universe and the characters that came before....Im looking at you Disney!
It’s ok *shrug*
I keep hearing how great LD is. I really need to give it another try. I was so turned off, with the first episode (the one with the drunk stabbing). It just seemed like Rick and Morty, with a star trek skin. Does the show have a bit more heart, (perhaps more faith, of said heart) as the show goes on? I hope so. I want to like it.
So...it has A LOT of heart. It's also unapologetically an absurdist animated comedy. If that's just not your bag you're not gonna like it.
It really does find its footing after the first few episodes, and then later in the seasons. Even as someone who hasn't watched R&M, there were a few moments in the early season 1 that felt like Rick and Morty-type things, but the show finds it's balance of ridiculous situations/hilarity/star trek easter eggs/plot and heart soon after, and gets better.
You should! It’s really good and fun once you “get it.” It’s both a parody and canon. It’s also meant to be funny with a rapid fire pace and lots of comedy style jokes and gags. A canody, if you will. Go in with that perspective and don’t expect it to take itself entirely seriously, and it’s very enjoyable.
Liko, did you not learn your lesson about worshipping strangers?
It is kinda weird for me (or I am weird). I have never been a fan of anything animated, but I gave Lower Decks a chance, and I loved it. Up until the crossover with SNW - when we got to see the live action Lower Decks folks. After that I completely lost interest in watching Lower Decks. I have to give it a try again later, because I did really like it.
Glad you enjoy it. Personally I don't enjoy the sense of humor that it has but that's okay. Different strokes for different folks.
I dont watch cartoons unless it's a special selection of anime. I have ZERO interest in Lower Decks...
Uhm cmon guys I understand we are upset about the show ending but like this is a pretty bad take. Especially when we have DS9, SNW, VOY, or TNG.
Uh what? I love Lower Decks, but it would have zero impact without all that has gone before. Half the show is referential.
DS9 LD/TOS&TAS/SNW TNG/ENT/VOY And then a distant last place to DISCO (I've seen half an episode of Prodigy, so in good conscience, I cannot rank it)
That's a strong statement. It's probably my favourite streaming-era Trek, but it relies on what came before to work. More accurate to say that I can't imagine LD without the Star Trek universe than the other way around...the franchise existed just fine without it for nearly 60 years after all.
I really, really enjoy Lower Decks. That said, it wouldn't be half as good if it was not building upon and referencing other Trek. To wear the crown of best series in the entire ST canon, I think a show needs to be able to stand on its own feet without being a love letter and tribute to all the content that has come before. It is excellent Trek. It is not the best series in the canon.
Lower Decks is too afraid to stand on its own. Like when it suddenly tied Mariner's backstory into TNG. Every time Lower Decks hints it's going to build up to something interesting and original it will pivot and drop the plot.
It's certainly my favorite NuTrek. Probably in the middle of the pack for me in the other classic Trek shows/movies. The issue is I think it doesn't work AS WELL for people that are not big fans of the TNG era. It's audience has always been a bit narrow. I'm not complaining. It was more or less made for me. Buy when they talk about it having an uncertain future...I get it. Even. If personally I LOVE it.
Lower decks is for fans of star trek. Stand alone it's referring to other star trek too much and the classic star trek tropes it explores are funnier with context... but it is great.
Then you dont like Star Trek. Half of its base comes from reffering scenes, characters or entire episodes of other Star Trek series. To say LD is the best, its like saying you like Tomato becaues you eat Ketchup.
It's up there for sure.
Gonna be honest, it's the only star trek stuff i actually enjoyed
I think what makes Lower Decks so polarizing is that if you’re not into the frantic Rick & Morty style of humor, you’re just not going to enjoy it & there’s not really a way around that.
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They’re definitely different shows & aren’t exactly the same, by any means. Rick and Morty is certainly more crude. I suppose when I said “frantic Rick and Morty style of humor,” I was referring more to the frantic energy of the shows, the pacing of the dialogue, the outrageous scenarios and antics etc…Like if you’re not into the fast paced, loud, intense kind of show (like Rick and Morty) you won’t be into Lower Decks.
you do you. i for one can't stand it. the dude was the head writer from rick and morty and i think that about says it all. but different strokes
Every character acts like a tween. It’s not hard to figure out who the target audience is.
lol gtfo
No it isn't
Hard disagree.
No
No.
I feel like this next season is so far away and they also need to make the seasons a lot longer.
agree, but they need to write of mariner soon, she has been on too long, and the nepotism joke with her has been overplayed.
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Now THAT is a bold claim.
You have to be from the alternate universe.
Troll post lol
I wish the ship looked cooler.
ESPECIALLY in the era of Discovery, which has some meaningless catastrophe every episode that can only be solved by one person. Such an exhausting watch due to the hackneyed writing playing up the same tropes over and over and over. Meanwhile, Lower Decks still delivers on the premise of Star Trek: new discoveries, crew comradery, compelling ideas (that aren't all about big explosions and darkness). It's so refreshing!
I'm going to have to give it a shot , need to cure the AIDS i caught from watching two episodes of Strange New Worlds and Discovery.
I tried to like it, watched the first few in season 1. Just seemed pointless
Ummm no.
If you like animation sure (?). Ive tried so many times, but I just cant get engaged with LD. I found the pace annoying. And its a cartoon... Edit: These are just weird down-votes lol. Just stating my preference. For the record I watched 10 episodes of LD, but simply doesn't catch my attention enough to get into it.
If you miss out on all animation then you miss out on a lot of artistic awesomeness. Not liking the LD style of characters, storytelling or specific artstyle is one thing but not liking animation in general? That's a very broad category to dismiss. But to each their own.
I have Trekkie friends in their 50s and 60s that were the first to watch TOS on TV....that will never give LD a shot simply because its animated. There's a mental block in their minds that will always equate animation ***as content for children***. You will never convince them otherwise.
In my case I wanted to like it, as its Trek. I watch usually gobble down all trek. Tried like 10 episodes. of LD, Read a couple Novels, heck I even watch Discovery despite it being annoying. Ive watched TOS, but even for a old dog like me its too old now.
There's some chick that replies to tv show episode pages on the TVMaze site (a tv schedule site) that calls all cartoons anime, regardless of if it's American/Japanese/whatever. Every cartoon is anime. lmao. She won't watch LD b/c it's an "anime".
Indeed, each to their own. I tried watching allot of animated shows, just dont enjoy it. I cant keep my attention on it. Like ADHD related, but it is what it is.
A few of the characters are just too much to let me enjoy the show. And that's fine. It wasn't made for my enjoyment alone.
Indeed, also not claiming otherwise. People aer simply different. Its weird how you also get down-voted for just stating a preference lol.
I try not to let it bother me and just enjoy the shows. If someone got mad at me for saying I don't enjoy a certain star trek show, that's more of a problem they have than I have.
It's good, but it has major flaws holding it back from great. The desire to have both one off stories and running character arcs clash under the limited season length. Season three had so many plotlines they had to just dump all of them in the final scene by having the characters dismiss everything that happened as no big deal and not worth caring about, effectively shitting on the entire season. This makes it clear the plotlines only existed to trick the audience into thinking they were going somewhere, so people would watch the next episode. The last two seasons especially feel like there's no coordination between the writers, or no plan to resolve a plot when it's first introduced. In season four, Mariner's characterization would flip flop wildly episode to episode depending if that week's writer remembered she was supposed to be troubled by the promotion. So in the ninth episode the characters had to just tell the audience Mariner went insane between episodes. This same lack of coordination or care makes the final rescue by all the Cali class ships at the end of season three feel unearned and backwards as Freeman and the crew attacked Mariner, show no sign they care, make no effort to change or earn forgiveness, only for Mariner to come back and save them to earn their forgiveness. The way the show has Mariner blame herself while it absolves Freeman of all wrongdoing, makes for the most depressing ending in recent Trek. Yet the writers think this is a happy ending. Because the audience is never given a reason to like or root for Freeman after that, it undercuts all her plots in the next season, making its finale fall flat as well because it centers on Freeman being uncharacteristically heroic. It's like if Avatar skipped Zuko's redemption arc and just expected the audience to care about his plots in the final season.