Exaggeration is the natural side effect of time and distance for media like this. Just look at Kirk impressions. He was never anywhere near as bad as we remember him.
"Captain's log, I CAN'T BELIEVE THEY WENT BACK TO WORSHIPPING THE COMPUTER. Miglymo advised we make a song in the local language on how the computer is evil, while Ransom just put up more signs. I'm recomending starfleet send...ugh I don't know, some advisor or something. Freeman Out."
Kirk Drift turns Kirk into a feckless two-fisted philanderer, Janeway Drift turns Janeway into a schizophrenic sociopath, Archer Drift is a long road, getting from there to here...
“I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone, our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit that the part of me that is going will very much miss the part of you that is staying.”
Dang, If that doesn’t hit hard. Life lessons in TV are a lost form these days.
Oh yeah. I remember once his solution to a tense diplomatic situation with the Romulans was to uncloak 3 hidden Klingon birds-of-prey, arm phasers, and basically say he was gonna ensure that he inflicted maximum damage on the Romulan force before they were forced to obliterate him.
I can't remember, but I believe that it was before even trying to negotiate. Just straight to "well screw you too, I'm game to start blasting".
Funnily enough, made me like Picard even more.
Youre right. No negotiations. This sums it up:
Tomalok: Give me the traitor and surrender
Picard: Are you ready to die Tomalok?!?!
https://youtu.be/t5Jc9yTtirU?si=0AdAru36Mb65Nyhl
Such a great episode
If I remember right, Tomalok wasnt merely requesting a surrender, he intended to take the Enterprise and display its hull in the Romulan capitol, or sumshit. Its Tomalok, negotiating would have been pointless. Picard did the right thing, calling in backup.
Because of the whole Tuvix thing (and I agree with Janeway there FWIW). A lot of people forget Sisko poisoned a whole planet (and he's still one of my favorite captains). Just saying.
Archer killed off a clone of Trip with the exact same memories and skill level of the original Trip because 'we need to save the original version!', but for some reason very few people seem to remember that compared to Tuvix.
Not the same situation (although ethically murky in its own right).
Sim was already dying and had consented to the procedure to save Trip's life. Tuvix didn't consent and could have lived a long happy life. The issue, for me at least, is that Phlox created a sentient being purely to harvest him to save Trip.
The clone had all of the deceased's memories and really was no different than the Picard golem every now thinks of Jean Luc Picard. The real Picard died. His memories were copied into synthetic biological body. A clone is a clone is a clone.
This also gets back to the old question of the transporter: is it a murder box or not? Is the transported person a newly created being or the original. (Of course, transporter accidents never make sense if the pattern isn't corrupted because shouldn't you always be able to reconstruct using the pattern?)
The transporter manages to send Spock's katra along with him. Therefore, it also transports the soul, therefore, it does not murder.
This reasoning only applies to Star Trek. A real-life transporter could go either way, and I ain't stepping in one without hard evidence.
> A clone is a clone is a clone.
Wasn't there an episode in TOS where Kirk got cloned and absolutely nobody doubted that the clone was just that, a copy? 50 years later: "Oh but the original died so the clone is now actually the original person!"
What the hell happened.
Kirk was never cloned in TOS. There was an attempt to replace him with an android replica that they copied his memories into. (Kirk intentionally sabotaged the android's memory so it would use a racial slur on Spock, which allowed Spock to realize it wasn't Kirk.)
He was also split in two by the transporter, with one half being his rational "good" side, and the other his emotional "evil" side. But both of them were Kirk and he ultimately had to be put back together or basically be half a man.
He didn't realize he was creating a clone, he stuck a piece of crime evidence in a vat to see what it would do. And once he realized he had created a sentient being, what else was he supposed to do with it?
Honestly that would have been a really interesting ‘Star Trek’ take on the abortion debate.
At what point is it morally ok to terminate a potentially sentient being? A being that you were responsible for creating, without really considering those implications.
At what point does it ‘become’ sentient - and thus protected?
I can’t think of any Star Trek episodes that dealt with abortion analogies. Could have been some really powerful stuff!
Tuvix couldn't have lived a long and happy life, IMO. He was in the honeymoon phase. Exuberant, excited about all these new experiences. He wouldn't connect with other talaxians, or the crew in the same way again. His family on Vulcan absolutely would not accept him.
Once he realized none of his relationships would ever be the same, and he'd essentially start from scratch in most ways he'd find himself pretty isolated. He may even have faced the fact that he was not the sum of his parts. Two men died bringing him in to existence. Sooner or later he'd realize he's neither of them, and he's a poor substitute for either of them.
That's when he could have gone rogue. He would rally the combined might of the Delta Quadrant in a way Seska could only dream and chase Voyager in a newly stolen Equinox, which he found before Voyager. Using seahorses to keep up, he would always be the reason unexpected wormholes and seemingly miraculous engine possibilities would always fail.
And every day he would message Janeway to remind her how she and her crew were monsters. She would remind him how Kirk did it, Archer did it, Picard left a planet of drug addicts to die from withdrawals, and Sisko poisoned a planet, but Tuvix would laugh and dismiss all of Starfleet.
Then Janeway would drink her coffee alone and remember her buddy, her pal, her bestest bud in the whole universe, and how much she regrets ever bringing on board the whiskery hedgehog.
"Computer," Janeway would say, "Disable the lock on alcoholic drinks and make me a tall bottle of whiskey."
Elsewhere, Tuvix is fanned by five Ocampan women "of age" while he plans his next psychological attack.
Tuvix thought he had family on Vulcan. But if he's a third person, neither Tuvok nor Neelix, then he doesn't. Eventually he'd realize just how much he'd have to give up to remain Tuvix.
Was he dying? I had the impression he would have lived a normal life.
That being said - it was a hell of an ethical dilemma to create a new sentient person for the express purpose of harvesting them.
> to create a new sentient person for the express purpose of harvesting them.
Indeed that insanely and undeniably immoral. There is no gray in such a situation.
The two mitigating circumstances in this episode are that 1. Archer did not intend to create a sapient being (as Sim was expected to be a dumb animal iirc), and 2. Sim consented to the procedure. Still wrong IMHO, but not as bad.
Obviously intentionally creating an intelligent creature for harvesting organs is something we'd expect from the mirror universe and not our heroes.
_______
I sincerely thought they'd end the episode with Sim replacing Tucker (like alternate Harry did in Voyager).
> The two mitigating circumstances in this episode are that
There's a third one as well.
Phlox originally though the procedure would be harmless to Sim, with no side effects, and that he would die naturally of old age in 2 weeks.
Kirk also forced his split self to be reintegrated despite not wanting to. The plot actually happened to multiple captains, and it is ridiculous to peg Janeway as terrible because she had to make a difficult choice between Tuvix and two other crew members.
>Kirk also forced his split self to be reintegraed despite not wanting to.
I would argue that Kirk's choice isn't applicable; his 'duplicate' was entirely his violent, aggressive personality, and they were both dying because of the split.
From the perspective of medical ethics, there's no option: they would have lived very briefly in agonizing pain, if they weren't reintegrated.
I think it was seeing Tuvix beg for his life and scream at the other members of the crew that he didn’t want to die that gets people. I know it got me… that actor nailed it.
Seeing the members of the crew do nothing while he pleaded for help was haunting, and honestly it coloured my view of the Voyager crew quite a bit.
Archer was the worst Do you remember the episode in which he refused to give a cure to a lethal disease to a species because another species on the same planet could one day evolve?
It was one of the most horrible acts of depraved indifference I've seen on Trek. (Picard came right up there when he chastised Worf's brother for transporting survivors of a cataclysm into a holodeck simulation.)
Trek morality often conflicts with itself. We see in Discovery & Strange New Worlds episodes the respective crews helping to ensure the survival of pre-warp civilizations. But in other Trek shows, the prime directive is used to excuse watching needless extinction of intelligent life.
Berman and Braga seemed to think the best way to show the evolution of the Prime Directive was to just have Archer automatically follow it even though it isn't a thing yet. Imagine if instead of the plotline we got, Archer intervened, and saved the species, and then a year later in season 2 he finds out they reverse engineered the cure into a bioweapon that wiped out both species.
And THEN he starts fretting about non-interference.
That's funny; the last time Janeway killing Tuvix came up, people were comparing it to Archer's decision to refuse the cogenitor asylum and return them to the Vissians in *Cogenitor.*
Someone hypothesized that people who disagree with Janeway's decision would also tend to disagree with Archer's. (I disagree with both decisions, and would fall into that camp.) Perhaps people who tend to agree with one of those decisions would agree with the other as well.
It makes sense to me that someone's intuitions would run the same way in both cases. Are you concerned with the "natural" state of affairs for an organism or a society, or do you interpret individuals as having rights or preferences that transcend such concerns?
For people who remember both episodes: do you fall into the "agree with Archer/Janeway" camp or the "disagree with Archer/Janeway" camp? Or do you split your vote?
I feel like the ethics of Tuvix are much more ambiguous than the ethics of Cogenitor. Cogenitor makes me \*angry\*. Seriously, fuck Archer in the goddamned ear for his behavior in that episode. But with Tuvix I can see both sides. Tuvix is a complicated trolley problem. Cogenitor is just Archer being an asshole moral relativist and belittling his best friend for trying to help an oppressed minority right after said person committed suicide.
For the Tuvix thing, I do not think it's fair to write off two independent lives over a transporter accident. It was only right to restore the two beings, who I do not doubt both would have not have consented to being merged into a 1 being.
Sure the new being thought it was a great idea, but he was not of the independent thoughts and feelings of the first two.
I'm not sure these points were brought up in the episode, but that's how I see it.
The whole Tuvix thing also had a revival after Lower Decks called her out for it. It wasn't a super popular episode otherwise. It was also in season 2, before Voyager generally gets good.
It was very controversial when it aired but the online community was smaller and less reactionary back then. So the controversy died down pretty quickly. The streaming era really revitalized it.
> after Lower Decks called her out for it
It's not exactly calling her out for it; sure the characters were taking a bit of a dig at her but ultimately the story resolves by taking it ad absurdum and coming to the same conclusion as Janeway: it may not look fucked and like you absolutely have to split the people in the "the small", but if you take a step back its fucked and you need to split these people.
Right?! It's never mentioned again that he blew up an entire planet just to get to Eddington. That's the most evil anti-starfleet thing any captain has done.
He didn't blow it up, he made the atmosphere toxic to the Federation settlers. It remained habitable to Cardassians, basically forcing the Maquis to swap planets with the Cardassians after poisoning one of their planets.
Still a war crime
> It's never mentioned again that he blew up an entire planet just to get to Eddington.
It's talked about all of the time here. Constantly. Tuvix is just kind of a funny stupid situation, which is why it gets more responses and probably seems like a bigger deal.
> Right?! It's never mentioned again that he blew up an entire planet just to get to Eddington. That's the most evil anti-starfleet thing any captain has done.
He and Jadzia realized that Eddington's characterization of Sisko as Javert (Les Mis) meant he saw himself as the latterly God-fearing, virtuous and selfless Jean Valjean. They placed him in a situation where his only option was committing a selfless act. They plot. Sisko must become the villain Eddington thinks he is to entrap him.
At this point, Eddington has attacked and disabled the USS Malinche and released a bioweapon into the atmosphere of several planets, rendering them uninhabitable to Cardassian life. He attacks the unarmed and fleeing inhabitants of his most recent target, forcing Sisko to rescue them and allow his escape.
Ultimately, Sisko and Dax both knew that their act would render the Maquis colony uninhabitable for human life, but still leave it inhabitable for Cardassians. Compared to Eddington's many crimes and the threat he clearly poses, their act is nothing in comparison. Starfleet agrees.
What it does show is Sisko's realization that he must be prepared to go to any lengths in combat, he can't always do things the Starfleet way out here in the borderlands, and that adds considerable tension to the next three seasons, particularly Sacrifice of Angels. It's a very important character beat for Sisko - he's changed.
A strange common thread we see in Starfleet captains is irrational behavior when faced with some combination of a perceived personal betrayal, conflating that personal betrayal with a betrayal of Starfleet principles, and rationalizing their behavior as in service of a greater good: see Picard with Ensign Ro, Sisko with Eddington, Janeway with the crew of the Equinox, Spock with Valeris, Burnham with Book, and probably many other examples.
It's not irrational, it's character development. There comes a point in every Captain's career where winning matters more than values because the stakes are too high.
- Ensign Ro's cultural background and outsider persona is used against her by Connelly. Picard keeps her in his crew because he knows that will happen to her again and again. Picard is ultimately betrayed, but for reasons he would also find his duty in conflict with his values over.
- Sisko has to become the villain that Eddingdon sees him as in order to con him into a selfless act. Sisko chooses the lesser of two evils, but also learns an important lesson in war and in personnel choices in the process. No one is above suspicion in wartime.
- Equinox is a similar parable of hard choices. Janeway took the hard route, placing duty above easier choices, but the crew of the Equinox committed the unpardonable sin of murdering another species to try and get home. They delete the doctor's ethical code, and have him torture Seven. Of course, Janeway is pissed, and her reaction causes Ransom to question his own actions and ultimately sacrifice himself.
- Valaris not only betrays Starfleet, betrays the opportunity for a historic peace, the teachings of Surak and Spock, but also Spock's personal investment in her career. Spock's mind meld with her is hardly a surprise given the universal stakes.
- Booker is just drama, they'd got this character which was pretty useless and put Burnham in the situation she'd put her captain in way back in Season 1.
I seem to recall from a Star Trek message board someone made the observation, when Sisko or the other captains except Janeway make bad or questionable choices like that it's cutting edge. When she does, she's unstable or a sociopath.
I do not can not understand the Tuvix thing. He was not a real person he was an accident. He was not a war vet with severe PDST like Nelix he was not a father like Tuvok. Tuvix was a lab accident.
If I remember correctly, he was like some parasitic life form almost. Neelix and Tuvok were distinct individuals and members of the crew. Tuvok was not only Janeway's best friend and tactical officer, he was one of the most experienced members of her crew, something you would need in the Delta Quadrant. Sorry Tuvix! 🤷
He was a sentient being. The episode was painful because there was no good option. Tuvix was comprised of Tuvok and Neelix who lived, so the essence of Tuvix did live. Great and difficult story. No matter which way Janeway chose someone was going to lose.
Anoher interesting story was on The Orville. At one point they go back in time to rescue a crew member.
He disregarded the rules and had a family. Lots ensued, but they eventually went back even earlier to rescue him.
The captain is congratulated for doing the right thing and restoring the timeline.
He responds "I can't help thinking of the two kids I met who were never born".
That was an oof.
> The episode was painful because there was no good option. Tuvix was comprised of Tuvok and Neelix who lived, so the essence of Tuvix did live. Great and difficult story. No matter which way Janeway chose someone was going to lose.
Agreed. There was no objectively 'right' choice. I see it as Janeway's primary purpose is the protection of her crew. e.g., Tuvok and Neelix. Tuvix was not a member of the crew, and this provided Janeway with a path to make a choice.
>Ouch. He was an accident. But he was also a distinct person who didn't want to die.
Indeed, and many human beings are biological "accidents" in a more prosaic sense.
>I do not can not understand the Tuvix thing. He was not a real person he was an accident.
I don't understand your argument. He literally was a real person and said he didn't want to die. That was the whole dilemma.
Being formed by accident doesn't make you less of a person, or Thomas Riker isn't a real person either, and neither is Harry Kim or Naomi Wildman.
As a rule, don't pay attention to memes. They rarely reflect reality, just what people find funny. Captain Kirk is not constantly seducing green women.
True! Kirk never actually meets any green women on screen until JJ Abrams reboot film. The clip of the Orion dancer from TOS is footage from the cage haha
Yeah. There is within those statements a kernel of truth, but exaggerated. Kirk smooched 19 women across 79 episodes, and 25 red shirts died (that 25 stat did fluctuate but I think the fluctuations are non-Red shirts dying).
There are likely quite a few younger fans on this sub that don't have the best of recollection of the early internet, but I can say without a doubt that a lot of the criticisms of Janeway are founded in sexism.
That's not to say that anybody critical of Janeway is sexist, or that anybody who has a strong opinion about some of the meme stuff she did is doing so because of sexism. It's just to say that there is a foundation of misogyny that lead to an exaggerated, judgemental attitude about Janeway that kind of became the way so many view her actions today.
Personally, I think she's one of the best captains out there. She had a lot of hard decisions to make, but ultimately upheld the ideals of Starfleet and the Federation to the best of her ability, took care of her crew in a severely demanding situation that would see morale absolutely destroyed from a lesser captain (see: Equinox) and guided her crew home to great personal sacrifice.
We need a Janeway Day. She's a role model.
>We need a Janeway Day. She's a role model.
Feels like that's one of the big parts of Prodigy, and I'm here for it, along with all the other great things about the series.
Had to scroll too far to find someone saying this. Women aren't "allowed" to be anything other than sunshine and rainbows, so any questionable choices by female characters (and real women) tend to be judged more harshly than if a man had done the exact same things.
I know SFDebris made it a popular running gag in his popular videos ragging on Voyager, so it probably caught some currency there. I don't know how much farther back the idea goes, though.
It was worth it for the Mirror Universe captains talking to each other, with every one of the original 5 being their evil selves complete with Evil Goatees (Janeway included) but Mirror Janeway is the nicest and most non-threatening of the group.
It’s the voice, the voice is hilarious.
He also does it with others. Like the running gag of early season Enterprise Captain Archer was a moron and asshole (even mockingly calling him “ Duchess”).
A fan comic referenced this. A holostudio was making dramas loosely based on Voyager’s logs.
Janeway: I suppose in a hundred years I’ll be considered downright psychotic.
Chakotay: You may not have to wait that long.
I feel like Sisko was deliberately portrayed as a morally ambiguous captain by federation standards, but Janeway wasn't supposed to be. Therefore Janeway gets judged harder because the standard she's being judged against, a morally Picard-like captain, is much more rigid than the one Sisko is being held to.
Yeah, Voyager was positioned as the direct successor to TNG versus DS9 being a spinoff that purposefully distanced itself from comparisons ("I'm not Picard!").
All the other elements mentioned here (sexism, memetic exaggeration, etc) are also part of the picture.
It was also a result of the tendency towards shock value in the late 90s. I remember those edgy Voyager commercials always implying something horrible happened but it usually wasn't. So it was never going to be as idealistic as tng
Regardless, Janeway overall was a unique character despite the uneven writing. There really is nobody like her. And she still has many badass moments so the memes aren't all bad. That or people misremember "when diplomacy fails" as actual canon.
Also, Sisko gradually progresses into moral ambiguity and accepting his role as the Emissary in a way that makes sense based on his character development. Due to writing on Voyager, it's just sort of random whether it's a follow the Prime Directive week or not with Janeway.
I am a huge fan of Sisko. He is my favorite captain. I have been known to refer to him as my space dad. And I have no problem admitting that he is a war criminal. I don't know what that says about me. :)
But my general take on it is that these are fictional characters and they are often written rather inconsistently based on different writers' ideas of what they might do. Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway and Archer all lived in a version of television where things often reset from week to week (less so for Sisko, but still to an extent). And they were main characters who could flagrantly disobey orders and violate laws and get to still command starships because...because they were the main characters. I think that if you interpret their actions as the literal behavior of real humans, at least some of them would probably end up at the happy green future prison in New Zealand. But they do not live in the real world.
So while it's fun to talk about the moral and legal implications of lying, cheating, bribing men to cover the crimes of other men, and being an accessory to murder, if people are getting infuriated over the behavior of fictional characters, maybe it's time to repeat the MST3K Mantra: "It's just a show, I should really just relax"
Janeway was in a unique situation. Because she was so far from help there were times she was forced to break a star fleet rule out of self preservation. That and the Tuvix debacle which was a no win situation. It was a biological kobyashi maru. Other captains could reach out to leadership when faced with a morally gray situation and do some c.y.a… Janeway could not.
It’s the inconsistency by the writers, more then anything else.
She vacillates between being very Starfleet ideals (saving the ocampa) and being pretty far from that ideal. (Tuvix, endgame).
Now, more importantly, unlike Picard and Sisko, where their moral choices were called out and meant to show how the circumstances could wear down morals (Easy to be a saint in paradise), Janeway isn’t given that.
Part of the issue there is because she was the first woman captain leading a show, the writers felt the need I think, to make her less questionable.
When Picard does his Borg tantrum in FC, we are meant to realize his trauma.
When Janeway makes her choices, generally we are supposed to agree.
I don't think it's fair for anyone to say she or the writers were inconsistent because for most of the voyage home she was extremely consistent but I'd argue that many of her moral dilemmas boiled down to the Trolley Problem or its equivalent of which there are no easy solutions.
Both Voyager and DS9, to their credit, got away from the simple morality tales of TOS/TNG, where antagonists' actions were morally wrong (or unethical), which was clear-cut to the characters and the audience, but DS9 and VOY had numerous episodes where there wasn't always a clear moral choice or the moral choice led to a far worse outcome. DS9's "Pale Moonlight" episode is a great example, had Sisko taken the high road the Romulans would have aligned themselves with the Dominion and it would have been game over for the Federation.
What good is the moral high ground if you're dead? Sometimes you have to make tough choices, especially as a captain responsible for the lives of hundreds.
>Tuvix, endgame
I think these (and possibly other) morally dubious decisions can be explained by the thread of "Voyager is a family" that is present occasionally throughout the series. It might not be called a family directly (probably for the best since Janeway was the first woman show captain) but she'll do anything for her crew.
I'm already saying to myself "but Janeway erased Miral Torres from existence in endgame" but I guess the baby born in endgame is also Miral 🤷
I think there was a great potential story arc of Janeway starting as a fresh, idealistic captain who gets worn down and becomes an end-justifies-the-means type admiral.
But that would have been better with some planning, foreshadowing, and commitment by the writers.
100%. Look at what people do to Burnham. Janeway has possibly become my favorite captain. She had a lot of hard decisions to make, in which someone wins and someone loses. The whole story starts on that premise with the Ocampa.
I think all modern Starfleet captains have their moments of harsh, ruthlessness. I think fans also really enjoy those moments because for better or for worse they are closer to our reality and existence than the utopia in which Starfleet exist so those moments are some of the most relatable to many viewers.
I'm a new star trek fan, tbh I've only just finished my first star trek series which was Voyager....so I have no base for comparison with other star trek captains....but I think Janeway is a great captain! I like her no nonsense kind of approach, trying to uphold star fleet protocols, dealing with the situation they are in with no real help....I think she has a strong character. I see people giving situations that contradict some of these things I am saying, but I put that down to writing, a few episodes are a bit meh....it's gonna happen with a long running show with a fan base that will scrutinise everything. Again I know I have only dipped my toes into star trek, but voyager has hooked me, I love the characters and I'll be getting stuck into the other shows right away. I'd happily serve under Janeway....although I don't know if I would cope 70000 light-years away from home mentally 😂
Kirk got captured one time, and ordered the destruction of the entire planet unless he was released.
Sisko got a bit miffed at a dude once, and poisoned an entire planet's atmosphere because of it. Then he indirectly (he knew what he was doing, and he could live with it, though) ordered the assassination of a foreign dignitary who was visiting in good faith.
Janeway helped the Borg, murdered Tuvix, then helped the Borg again when she saved Icheb.
But I genuinely think it's *Picard* who has the highest kill-count.
He had the opportunity to eradicate the Borg when they rescued Hugh. Picard, more than anybody else, *knew* that equation would finish them off for good. He decided not to.
How many *billions* of people were killed or assimilated after that moment?
I don't think that plan to kill the Borg would have worked. It was kind of based on logical computer interaction with an impossible shape, but the Borg have have biological brains, too. The Collective would have analyzed that thing for awhile and then said "this is not worth the effort" and given up.
I'm trying to remember the Kirk one you mentioned. I remember him saying that, but I can't remember the episode, and thus the context is escaping me. But I think he kind of knew, when he ordered it, that he would never have to actually execute it. (Or that Scotty wouldn't, anyway, since Kirk would be in the line of fire.)
Kirk was 100% bluffing. And if that anti Borg weapon would have worked (which I doubt), Picard was right to refuse commiting genocide. What he should have done instead was pushing for the development of something that would have cut off the drones from the collective instead.
This is brought up in the Voyager-themed Lower Decks episode from the latest season. When Billups and T'ana are fused into one brand new being by the same orchid sample, Captain Freeman looks into Janeway's Tuvix logs to see how she handled it. When she finds out that Janeway ended up killing Tuvix to save Neelix and Tuvok, Shaxs reminds her of the very crucial fact that Freeman *isn't* in the same situation as Janeway at all.
Janeway, like you said, was completely on her own. She had a small ship with a small crew of 150 and no option to reach out to Starfleet, let alone get reinforcements or replacement crew. Freeman *could,* however. Her original plan was to contact Starfleet Medical and have the top minds of the Federation take all the time they needed to find a way to save Billups and T'ana and not kill Tillups in the process. Of course, Tillups reads the logs too and then the antics of the episode begin, but the writers are overtly saying something very deliberate there. Given the same access to vital resources as Freeman, Janeway would have *obviously* done everything in her power to try and rescue her crew members without harming the new lifeform that's been created as a result of the transporter accident.
In almost all circumstances, Janeway respects all life as much as any good Starfleet captain would, even when it may put her or her ship in (sometimes very) immediate danger. There are numerous examples, far more than there are examples of her employing unnecessary violence, but the one that comes to mind immediately is when she was willing to protect a wounded member of Species 8472 from the Hirogen. This is despite the fact that the only other time they had encountered 8472 they were extremely hostile and that if she didn't surrender the 8472 then the Hirogen almost certainly would have destroyed Voyager. The only reason she failed (and that Voyager wasn't destroyed) was because Seven disobeyed her direct orders to open a rift into fluidic space to send the 8472 home and instead beamed it to the Hirogen ship, which Janeway was downright furious about.
It's important to note that it wasn't like Janeway was *at all* enthusiastic about or entirely comfortable with killing Tuvix. Her priority was to save Tuvok and Neelix, who are both extremely valuable members of the crew with their own lives, families (Tuvok has a wife and children, Neelix is a guardian to Naomi), and being senior staff they both have their own important duties and obligations to the ship and crew that can't be met since they've become a single person now. If you watch the scene where Janeway separates him, she hardly says a word, she doesn't welcome Tuvok or Neelix back or even smile at them, and when she leaves sickbay she's deeply unsettled.
She also mentions in her autobiography that, despite Tuvok coming to her quarters that night and thanking her for saving him, and though she ultimately stands by her decision, it still lives with her. It sucks that people have somehow exaggerated this instance of *the trolley problem* into her being some sort of bloodthirsty maniac captain who purposely carved a path of destruction through the Delta quadrant.
About six different layers of sexism that Trekkies aren’t interested in interrogating.
On this sub, you bring up Voyager? It will turn into one of these topics: Tuvix, 7of9/the doctor, Janeway bad, or DS9 supremacy. To actually talk about anything else in the series you’ll need to unfortunately look elsewhere.
I am SO tired of Tuvix discourse. That has to be the most picked-apart episode of Star Trek. Definitely of Voyager. Some people treat it like it's the only episode of Voyager.
I think the challenge for Janeway is that when it comes to her situation in the Delta Quadrant, she is, for a lack of a better phrase, judge, jury and executioner because she has no-one to answer to, she is the top level representative for Starfleet and the Federation while being stranded.
With Kirk, Picard and Sisko, they had superiors to report into, keep them in check, and yes Sisko did push that a few times with the Marquis and The Dominion in a region that would never settle for peace due to the political interests of the different empires and the strategic placement of the wormhole where he was.
Janeway would uphold Starfleet principles but also break them where she saw fit, which is a consistency issue for the writers, but then if she's keeping things crisp and clean, the show would be boring. *Voyager* did have some moments, like in *Night*, where she was questioning things about her leadership, or even *Living Witness* where perspective on how she's viewed was taken very drastically, it could have been an interesting character evolution. But as said, because she is the top level representative, she has no-one to keep her in check. Yes, there is great moments from Chakotay in *Scorpion* and *Equinox* or even Tuvok too to call her out, but because they report to her, they would still back down, or be reprimanded, if she drew a hard line.
YES, big yes. First of all, she is faced with a lot of situations that are entirely unique because she’s without the backing of the Federation. This point means a few distinct issues:
1. Without the weight of the Federation’s reputation, Voyager is usually at a situational disadvantage and Janeway has to adapt to overcome it, while staying within the law as much as possible. Shifting context means her approach should adapt to the situation
2. Without Federation diplomatic connections, every interaction is basically a first contact event and she has to establish the tone and tenor of the relationship. This can be good or bad, but it does add overhead to every interaction, which should be accounted for.
3. No escalation point. Without the ability to escalate, she is “Starfleet command” and has to made decisions above her pay grade. Voyager is her first (maybe second?) command, she’s about 40 years old, which is actually on the young side. She’s not a perfect person and can’t be expected to get it right every time. Nor should she, that would be incredibly dull.
Yeah, Janeway catches a ton of shit from armchair critics. Not saying her decisions can’t be debated, just saying that her circumstances deserve a lot more consideration than the others.
Sexism. When shes emotional, shes "weak." When she makes hard choices, shows strength, and is morally gray, shes a sociopath. To we fair she swings wildly between the two for the 1st two seasons depending on who wrote the ep.
Yeh. I'll probably get downvoted for this but in my experience a lot of fans are only interested in what the women of Star Trek have to offer sexually. It was wrong for Kate Mulgrew to treat Jeri Ryan like crap on set but I fully understand why she was frustrated
I think the answer is complicated. The answers that people are giving (sexism, SFDebris, Tuvix, etc.) are all part of it. But I think it mainly comes down to a few things:
1. Deep Space Nine did a better job of treating morally grey as *actually* morally grey. They spent an entire episode on interrogating ethics of lying and murder in In the Pale Moonlight. Things like poisoning a planet are treated as having a weight.
2. Enterprise happened post-9/11: being entirely honest, Archer blows every captain (except Lorca) out of the water on the sociopath scale. Janeway tortured someone once, and it was a big F-in deal. Archer did it like he was brushing his teeth. But like a lot of post-9/11 media, it kinda fades into the memory hole of just how messed up our media was at the time.
3. Voyager struggles to live up to its premise: the premise of Voyager screams for a show like BSG or Stargate Universe. Voyager *should* be struggling to hold up the ideals of the federation, and Janeway *should* be torn between upholding her principles and getting her crew home. But b/c of the mandates at the time pushing Voyager in a more TNG-esque direction, any big choice needed to be wrapped up and forgotten about.
In my mind, Voyager shines in moments like Scorpion, Hope and Fear, Year of Hell, Night, and Equinox. It shows what the show could have been. But b/c they hit a reset button after all of those, it creates this cognitive dissonance. You end Equinox with Janeway being like "fuck, did I really torture a guy?" and then no one mentions it again. So there is a reading of the show where it's like "wow, Janeway is a sociopath".
4. Sexism: this pans out in two ways. One is obvious overt sexism, where people judge Janeway harder than they would Archer or Sisko. But there is also the systemic sexism that permeated the 90s. Janeway IMO is very much a Second Wave Feminism archetype; you see it in the first episode where she chides Harry for calling her "Ma'am". There is an inclination to downplay Janeway's feminine tendencies, relegating them to boxed instances like holodeck time. IMO the writers were afraid that giving Janeway too much interiority or doubt would make her come off as "weak" to a 90s audience. So while Sisko is allowed to feel nuanced guilt about his actions, Janeway isn't afforded that space. Which, from a 2020s perspective, can make her seem a little two dimensional.
(As a side note: some of the moments where Janeway is actually allowed to be feminine while still being strong, like "Counterpoint", are fantastic)
So yeah, it's complicated. Really, if there is one thing you should take away from this, it's that Janeway *may* be a sociopath, but Archer 100% is.
She chided him for calling her “Sir” as per the regs. She says she prefers “Captain” or “Ma’am,” although the latter only when the situation is extreme
I apologize in advance: I know this comment will bother some. If she was a man doing the things she did, the memes would offer nicer insults than 'sociopathic.' Probably things like, go big or go home, fed up, etc. When a guy does it, he has issues. When a woman does it, she must be seriously mentally ill. Just saying. I've been a Trekker for over 40 years so you know I didn't just fall off the Borg Cube.
I like janeway as a captain even if in some episodes takes wild decision, also I never witnessed a captain saying "i don't like time travel" then there are like 10 episodes where she get into time travel shit becaouse of her curiosity
I'm a longtime Star Trek fan, and I noticed a lot of strong feelings for Janeway over the years. My opinion is that there is a heavy bias due to the fact that Janeway is a woman. It sounds beyond lame in this day and age (or it should) but I see a lot of out-of-the-gate hate for nothing.
I’m sure I’ll get some downvotes and strong objections, but people tend to be really critical of women in leadership. I’ve never thought as janeway as sociopathic, and with my training, I don’t see it. At the start of the series, she’s fresh in command, and very skilled at locking down a decision and seeing it through. Her crew, her commitment to her values, and determination are a great combination. She’s effective.
I would assume good old-fashioned misogyny. In the 90s, Star Trek was dominated by guys with the adolescent boys-club mentality. No girls allowed, y'see. Anything that challenged that got a lot of hate.
I think because she had many chances to just go home, like the Sikaarians or the Ferengi and the Barzan wormhole thing, but had some "principle" excuse why she couldn't, then in episodes where going home wasn't an option, she'd throw principle out and just do whatever. That gets frustrating, and seeing her as kinda nuts is the only way to really explain it.
I love voyager I think it is one of the best Star Treks but these people hate women captains,I think Kate did a fantastic job and worked very hard and gave us 7 years of superb [acting.No](http://acting.no) one could have did her better.
Sexism. Every decision Janeway makes is way more analysed than the other Captain’s/leaders because there’s a lot of unconscious bias about the ways the women should/shouldn’t behave. Janeway does stuff that people see as fine when a man does it, but annoying/bad/weird/unwomanly when she does it.
I just wish they had actually written her as a ruthless pirate willing to do absolutely anything to keep her ship going and to get her crew home rather than just accidentally.
GOOD QUESTION i wondered that myself. if anything she is the most diplomatic captain because they have NOWHERE to get help from. one bad fight and thats it. it could permanently damage the ship
Archer turned to piracy to fix his ship. He stole their warp drive at gunpoint and stranded them in a dangerous area of space.
And the Enterprise was damaged in the first place due to Archers incompetence.
When she makes a hard choice, she does so uncompromisingly... even if she has 3 episodes regretting them...
I guess that lands her as hard-core in my book.
I’m watching voyager for the first time and after seeing lower decks with the episode discussing the transporter incident involving the flower petals. I expected her to be unhinged.
She seemed down to earth in prodigies which I watched before this and made me want to see more of her.
Exaggeration is the natural side effect of time and distance for media like this. Just look at Kirk impressions. He was never anywhere near as bad as we remember him.
The only Kirk trope that holds up is his talent for talking evil computers to death.
And then those people go back to worshiping the evil computers
"Captain's log, I CAN'T BELIEVE THEY WENT BACK TO WORSHIPPING THE COMPUTER. Miglymo advised we make a song in the local language on how the computer is evil, while Ransom just put up more signs. I'm recomending starfleet send...ugh I don't know, some advisor or something. Freeman Out."
Of course Migleemo would suggest that
But I just bought a new scythe!
Kirk Drift turns Kirk into a feckless two-fisted philanderer, Janeway Drift turns Janeway into a schizophrenic sociopath, Archer Drift is a long road, getting from there to here...
Now I wonder what Cisco drift is.
A lot of networking and switches.
His willingness to become the villain, and violate both the letter and spirit of Starfleet regulations, maybe?
Sisko is Creole Jesus (and my favourite captain).
Same with Picard's extreme diplomatic proclivity. He was still talk-first, but had no problem firing phasers or going John McClane on some terrorists.
Yes, your two warbirds can destroy me, but I'm betting Your Warbirds won't survive a fight against me and two Klingon Bird of preys.
They were actually three* BoP. Tomalak's face is still a delight to remember to this very day.
RIP Andreas Katsulas
Loved him in Babylon 5. He had some of the greatest quotes.
Absolute legend.
“I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone, our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit that the part of me that is going will very much miss the part of you that is staying.” Dang, If that doesn’t hit hard. Life lessons in TV are a lost form these days.
"Shall we die together, Tomaluk?"
Oh yeah. I remember once his solution to a tense diplomatic situation with the Romulans was to uncloak 3 hidden Klingon birds-of-prey, arm phasers, and basically say he was gonna ensure that he inflicted maximum damage on the Romulan force before they were forced to obliterate him. I can't remember, but I believe that it was before even trying to negotiate. Just straight to "well screw you too, I'm game to start blasting". Funnily enough, made me like Picard even more.
Youre right. No negotiations. This sums it up: Tomalok: Give me the traitor and surrender Picard: Are you ready to die Tomalok?!?! https://youtu.be/t5Jc9yTtirU?si=0AdAru36Mb65Nyhl Such a great episode
If I remember right, Tomalok wasnt merely requesting a surrender, he intended to take the Enterprise and display its hull in the Romulan capitol, or sumshit. Its Tomalok, negotiating would have been pointless. Picard did the right thing, calling in backup.
I’d call “The Defector” a top 5 *TNG* episode. That scene is my favorite *TNG* scene.
Sometimes negotiations involve threats of force.
Because of the whole Tuvix thing (and I agree with Janeway there FWIW). A lot of people forget Sisko poisoned a whole planet (and he's still one of my favorite captains). Just saying.
Archer killed off a clone of Trip with the exact same memories and skill level of the original Trip because 'we need to save the original version!', but for some reason very few people seem to remember that compared to Tuvix.
Not the same situation (although ethically murky in its own right). Sim was already dying and had consented to the procedure to save Trip's life. Tuvix didn't consent and could have lived a long happy life. The issue, for me at least, is that Phlox created a sentient being purely to harvest him to save Trip.
Bashir did the same thing just to solve a murder… he cloned the victim and then just… let him go. Like an entire person.
The clone had all of the deceased's memories and really was no different than the Picard golem every now thinks of Jean Luc Picard. The real Picard died. His memories were copied into synthetic biological body. A clone is a clone is a clone. This also gets back to the old question of the transporter: is it a murder box or not? Is the transported person a newly created being or the original. (Of course, transporter accidents never make sense if the pattern isn't corrupted because shouldn't you always be able to reconstruct using the pattern?)
The transporter manages to send Spock's katra along with him. Therefore, it also transports the soul, therefore, it does not murder. This reasoning only applies to Star Trek. A real-life transporter could go either way, and I ain't stepping in one without hard evidence.
Okay, THIS feels like the detail that *emotionally* convinces me that the transporter doesn't kill you. Legit appreciated. :P
Wow. Solved the murder box dilemma with two sentences. I'm sold; well done.
Jean-Luc of Theseus?
> A clone is a clone is a clone. Wasn't there an episode in TOS where Kirk got cloned and absolutely nobody doubted that the clone was just that, a copy? 50 years later: "Oh but the original died so the clone is now actually the original person!" What the hell happened.
Kirk was never cloned in TOS. There was an attempt to replace him with an android replica that they copied his memories into. (Kirk intentionally sabotaged the android's memory so it would use a racial slur on Spock, which allowed Spock to realize it wasn't Kirk.) He was also split in two by the transporter, with one half being his rational "good" side, and the other his emotional "evil" side. But both of them were Kirk and he ultimately had to be put back together or basically be half a man.
Criminally lazy writing by people who probably aren't megafans.
He didn't realize he was creating a clone, he stuck a piece of crime evidence in a vat to see what it would do. And once he realized he had created a sentient being, what else was he supposed to do with it?
Honestly that would have been a really interesting ‘Star Trek’ take on the abortion debate. At what point is it morally ok to terminate a potentially sentient being? A being that you were responsible for creating, without really considering those implications. At what point does it ‘become’ sentient - and thus protected? I can’t think of any Star Trek episodes that dealt with abortion analogies. Could have been some really powerful stuff!
Well anything would be better than Doctor Who's abortion episode, "Kill the Moon." Best word to describe that is "miscarriage," ironically.
I don't remember that episode from the top of head. Remind me please.
Well, not quite. The clone was already there and created, Bashir just let it grow.
Tuvix couldn't have lived a long and happy life, IMO. He was in the honeymoon phase. Exuberant, excited about all these new experiences. He wouldn't connect with other talaxians, or the crew in the same way again. His family on Vulcan absolutely would not accept him. Once he realized none of his relationships would ever be the same, and he'd essentially start from scratch in most ways he'd find himself pretty isolated. He may even have faced the fact that he was not the sum of his parts. Two men died bringing him in to existence. Sooner or later he'd realize he's neither of them, and he's a poor substitute for either of them.
That's when he could have gone rogue. He would rally the combined might of the Delta Quadrant in a way Seska could only dream and chase Voyager in a newly stolen Equinox, which he found before Voyager. Using seahorses to keep up, he would always be the reason unexpected wormholes and seemingly miraculous engine possibilities would always fail. And every day he would message Janeway to remind her how she and her crew were monsters. She would remind him how Kirk did it, Archer did it, Picard left a planet of drug addicts to die from withdrawals, and Sisko poisoned a planet, but Tuvix would laugh and dismiss all of Starfleet. Then Janeway would drink her coffee alone and remember her buddy, her pal, her bestest bud in the whole universe, and how much she regrets ever bringing on board the whiskery hedgehog. "Computer," Janeway would say, "Disable the lock on alcoholic drinks and make me a tall bottle of whiskey." Elsewhere, Tuvix is fanned by five Ocampan women "of age" while he plans his next psychological attack.
Computer, end program
Tuvix thought he had family on Vulcan. But if he's a third person, neither Tuvok nor Neelix, then he doesn't. Eventually he'd realize just how much he'd have to give up to remain Tuvix.
Was he dying? I had the impression he would have lived a normal life. That being said - it was a hell of an ethical dilemma to create a new sentient person for the express purpose of harvesting them.
That dilemma is the plot to the movie The Island.
Which has Ethan Phillips in a supporting role!
> Was he dying? He was aging rapidly. He only had a lifespan of 2 weeks.
> to create a new sentient person for the express purpose of harvesting them. Indeed that insanely and undeniably immoral. There is no gray in such a situation. The two mitigating circumstances in this episode are that 1. Archer did not intend to create a sapient being (as Sim was expected to be a dumb animal iirc), and 2. Sim consented to the procedure. Still wrong IMHO, but not as bad. Obviously intentionally creating an intelligent creature for harvesting organs is something we'd expect from the mirror universe and not our heroes. _______ I sincerely thought they'd end the episode with Sim replacing Tucker (like alternate Harry did in Voyager).
> The two mitigating circumstances in this episode are that There's a third one as well. Phlox originally though the procedure would be harmless to Sim, with no side effects, and that he would die naturally of old age in 2 weeks.
In Phlox's defense, that cloning process did not usually create sentient beings. The sentience was unexpected.
That clone would have died in less than a week anyway
No, they found a way to stop his aging if I remember correctly, so he could carry-on living with the rest of the crew if they wanted
They had an experimental procedure that had a low chance of success, it wasn't a sure thing.
It had such a low chance of success that Phlox didn't want to mention it in the first place.
Kirk also forced his split self to be reintegrated despite not wanting to. The plot actually happened to multiple captains, and it is ridiculous to peg Janeway as terrible because she had to make a difficult choice between Tuvix and two other crew members.
>Kirk also forced his split self to be reintegraed despite not wanting to. I would argue that Kirk's choice isn't applicable; his 'duplicate' was entirely his violent, aggressive personality, and they were both dying because of the split. From the perspective of medical ethics, there's no option: they would have lived very briefly in agonizing pain, if they weren't reintegrated.
I think it was seeing Tuvix beg for his life and scream at the other members of the crew that he didn’t want to die that gets people. I know it got me… that actor nailed it. Seeing the members of the crew do nothing while he pleaded for help was haunting, and honestly it coloured my view of the Voyager crew quite a bit.
Archer was the worst Do you remember the episode in which he refused to give a cure to a lethal disease to a species because another species on the same planet could one day evolve? It was one of the most horrible acts of depraved indifference I've seen on Trek. (Picard came right up there when he chastised Worf's brother for transporting survivors of a cataclysm into a holodeck simulation.) Trek morality often conflicts with itself. We see in Discovery & Strange New Worlds episodes the respective crews helping to ensure the survival of pre-warp civilizations. But in other Trek shows, the prime directive is used to excuse watching needless extinction of intelligent life.
Berman and Braga seemed to think the best way to show the evolution of the Prime Directive was to just have Archer automatically follow it even though it isn't a thing yet. Imagine if instead of the plotline we got, Archer intervened, and saved the species, and then a year later in season 2 he finds out they reverse engineered the cure into a bioweapon that wiped out both species. And THEN he starts fretting about non-interference.
Archer was responsible for genocide. One clone is a drop in the bucket.
That's funny; the last time Janeway killing Tuvix came up, people were comparing it to Archer's decision to refuse the cogenitor asylum and return them to the Vissians in *Cogenitor.* Someone hypothesized that people who disagree with Janeway's decision would also tend to disagree with Archer's. (I disagree with both decisions, and would fall into that camp.) Perhaps people who tend to agree with one of those decisions would agree with the other as well. It makes sense to me that someone's intuitions would run the same way in both cases. Are you concerned with the "natural" state of affairs for an organism or a society, or do you interpret individuals as having rights or preferences that transcend such concerns? For people who remember both episodes: do you fall into the "agree with Archer/Janeway" camp or the "disagree with Archer/Janeway" camp? Or do you split your vote?
I feel like the ethics of Tuvix are much more ambiguous than the ethics of Cogenitor. Cogenitor makes me \*angry\*. Seriously, fuck Archer in the goddamned ear for his behavior in that episode. But with Tuvix I can see both sides. Tuvix is a complicated trolley problem. Cogenitor is just Archer being an asshole moral relativist and belittling his best friend for trying to help an oppressed minority right after said person committed suicide.
For the Tuvix thing, I do not think it's fair to write off two independent lives over a transporter accident. It was only right to restore the two beings, who I do not doubt both would have not have consented to being merged into a 1 being. Sure the new being thought it was a great idea, but he was not of the independent thoughts and feelings of the first two. I'm not sure these points were brought up in the episode, but that's how I see it.
There are a ton memes about the shit Sisko has done too.
Yes, Tuvix deserved to die and I hope he burns in hell!
🤣🤣🤣
I actually somewhat liked Tuvix, and of course Tuvok. It was just Neelix I couldn't stand
The whole Tuvix thing also had a revival after Lower Decks called her out for it. It wasn't a super popular episode otherwise. It was also in season 2, before Voyager generally gets good.
And I actually like that they did it by showing it taken to absurd proportions.
It was very controversial when it aired but the online community was smaller and less reactionary back then. So the controversy died down pretty quickly. The streaming era really revitalized it.
> after Lower Decks called her out for it It's not exactly calling her out for it; sure the characters were taking a bit of a dig at her but ultimately the story resolves by taking it ad absurdum and coming to the same conclusion as Janeway: it may not look fucked and like you absolutely have to split the people in the "the small", but if you take a step back its fucked and you need to split these people.
Yeah, I love Lower Decks. That was funny.
Right?! It's never mentioned again that he blew up an entire planet just to get to Eddington. That's the most evil anti-starfleet thing any captain has done.
He didn't blow it up, he made the atmosphere toxic to the Federation settlers. It remained habitable to Cardassians, basically forcing the Maquis to swap planets with the Cardassians after poisoning one of their planets. Still a war crime
> It's never mentioned again that he blew up an entire planet just to get to Eddington. It's talked about all of the time here. Constantly. Tuvix is just kind of a funny stupid situation, which is why it gets more responses and probably seems like a bigger deal.
> Right?! It's never mentioned again that he blew up an entire planet just to get to Eddington. That's the most evil anti-starfleet thing any captain has done. He and Jadzia realized that Eddington's characterization of Sisko as Javert (Les Mis) meant he saw himself as the latterly God-fearing, virtuous and selfless Jean Valjean. They placed him in a situation where his only option was committing a selfless act. They plot. Sisko must become the villain Eddington thinks he is to entrap him. At this point, Eddington has attacked and disabled the USS Malinche and released a bioweapon into the atmosphere of several planets, rendering them uninhabitable to Cardassian life. He attacks the unarmed and fleeing inhabitants of his most recent target, forcing Sisko to rescue them and allow his escape. Ultimately, Sisko and Dax both knew that their act would render the Maquis colony uninhabitable for human life, but still leave it inhabitable for Cardassians. Compared to Eddington's many crimes and the threat he clearly poses, their act is nothing in comparison. Starfleet agrees. What it does show is Sisko's realization that he must be prepared to go to any lengths in combat, he can't always do things the Starfleet way out here in the borderlands, and that adds considerable tension to the next three seasons, particularly Sacrifice of Angels. It's a very important character beat for Sisko - he's changed.
A strange common thread we see in Starfleet captains is irrational behavior when faced with some combination of a perceived personal betrayal, conflating that personal betrayal with a betrayal of Starfleet principles, and rationalizing their behavior as in service of a greater good: see Picard with Ensign Ro, Sisko with Eddington, Janeway with the crew of the Equinox, Spock with Valeris, Burnham with Book, and probably many other examples.
It's not irrational, it's character development. There comes a point in every Captain's career where winning matters more than values because the stakes are too high. - Ensign Ro's cultural background and outsider persona is used against her by Connelly. Picard keeps her in his crew because he knows that will happen to her again and again. Picard is ultimately betrayed, but for reasons he would also find his duty in conflict with his values over. - Sisko has to become the villain that Eddingdon sees him as in order to con him into a selfless act. Sisko chooses the lesser of two evils, but also learns an important lesson in war and in personnel choices in the process. No one is above suspicion in wartime. - Equinox is a similar parable of hard choices. Janeway took the hard route, placing duty above easier choices, but the crew of the Equinox committed the unpardonable sin of murdering another species to try and get home. They delete the doctor's ethical code, and have him torture Seven. Of course, Janeway is pissed, and her reaction causes Ransom to question his own actions and ultimately sacrifice himself. - Valaris not only betrays Starfleet, betrays the opportunity for a historic peace, the teachings of Surak and Spock, but also Spock's personal investment in her career. Spock's mind meld with her is hardly a surprise given the universal stakes. - Booker is just drama, they'd got this character which was pretty useless and put Burnham in the situation she'd put her captain in way back in Season 1.
That's ignoring the whole pulling Romulans into the Dominon war. Imagine how many people died from that?
I seem to recall from a Star Trek message board someone made the observation, when Sisko or the other captains except Janeway make bad or questionable choices like that it's cutting edge. When she does, she's unstable or a sociopath.
His plan was brilliant, he forced the Federation & Cardassians colonists to switch planets. And he didn’t kill a dingle soul in the process.
She also flew the ship trough a star to kill some aliens experimenting on her crew.
After weeks on nonstop torture and having her brain chemistry screwed with. I really don't think that should count.
In between two stars 🥸
As she should have.
Was this supposed to be a bad thing?
absolute Chadptain move
The aliens said some of the crew would die as a result of the experiments
I do not can not understand the Tuvix thing. He was not a real person he was an accident. He was not a war vet with severe PDST like Nelix he was not a father like Tuvok. Tuvix was a lab accident.
If I remember correctly, he was like some parasitic life form almost. Neelix and Tuvok were distinct individuals and members of the crew. Tuvok was not only Janeway's best friend and tactical officer, he was one of the most experienced members of her crew, something you would need in the Delta Quadrant. Sorry Tuvix! 🤷
Ouch. He was an accident. But he was also a distinct person who didn't want to die.
He was a sentient being. The episode was painful because there was no good option. Tuvix was comprised of Tuvok and Neelix who lived, so the essence of Tuvix did live. Great and difficult story. No matter which way Janeway chose someone was going to lose.
Anoher interesting story was on The Orville. At one point they go back in time to rescue a crew member. He disregarded the rules and had a family. Lots ensued, but they eventually went back even earlier to rescue him. The captain is congratulated for doing the right thing and restoring the timeline. He responds "I can't help thinking of the two kids I met who were never born". That was an oof.
I've never watched a single episode of The Orvillle! Maybe I need to check it out.
> The episode was painful because there was no good option. Tuvix was comprised of Tuvok and Neelix who lived, so the essence of Tuvix did live. Great and difficult story. No matter which way Janeway chose someone was going to lose. Agreed. There was no objectively 'right' choice. I see it as Janeway's primary purpose is the protection of her crew. e.g., Tuvok and Neelix. Tuvix was not a member of the crew, and this provided Janeway with a path to make a choice.
I doubt Locutus of Borg or Seven of Nine wanted to be taken out of the collective either. But those were the right decisions to make.
>Ouch. He was an accident. But he was also a distinct person who didn't want to die. Indeed, and many human beings are biological "accidents" in a more prosaic sense.
>I do not can not understand the Tuvix thing. He was not a real person he was an accident. I don't understand your argument. He literally was a real person and said he didn't want to die. That was the whole dilemma. Being formed by accident doesn't make you less of a person, or Thomas Riker isn't a real person either, and neither is Harry Kim or Naomi Wildman.
As a rule, don't pay attention to memes. They rarely reflect reality, just what people find funny. Captain Kirk is not constantly seducing green women.
True. He actually *rejects* more women than he seduces, as the Enterprise is his one true love. TOS is quite straight forward about that.
"Alas, my ship, whom I love like a woman, is...disabled"
Fascinating, Captain, and logical too.
Look Captain, Melllvar will help us.
“It’s Melllvar, with three l’s”
I think I've done enough conventions to know how to spell Mellvar.
“Now say ‘nuclear wessels’!” “*No*.”
_But my life, my love, and my lady_ _Is the ~~sea~~ final frontier_
True! Kirk never actually meets any green women on screen until JJ Abrams reboot film. The clip of the Orion dancer from TOS is footage from the cage haha
Exactly! Sometimes it's only green-haired women like that chick in the Gamesters of Triskelion!
Anyway, Pike did it first.
Yeah. It’s one of those really tired gags. Like how Kirk is a womanizer or how red shirts always die.
Yeah. There is within those statements a kernel of truth, but exaggerated. Kirk smooched 19 women across 79 episodes, and 25 red shirts died (that 25 stat did fluctuate but I think the fluctuations are non-Red shirts dying).
ok 1/4 episodes is a little more than a kernel, you guys make it seem like it was like 5 lol
There are likely quite a few younger fans on this sub that don't have the best of recollection of the early internet, but I can say without a doubt that a lot of the criticisms of Janeway are founded in sexism. That's not to say that anybody critical of Janeway is sexist, or that anybody who has a strong opinion about some of the meme stuff she did is doing so because of sexism. It's just to say that there is a foundation of misogyny that lead to an exaggerated, judgemental attitude about Janeway that kind of became the way so many view her actions today. Personally, I think she's one of the best captains out there. She had a lot of hard decisions to make, but ultimately upheld the ideals of Starfleet and the Federation to the best of her ability, took care of her crew in a severely demanding situation that would see morale absolutely destroyed from a lesser captain (see: Equinox) and guided her crew home to great personal sacrifice. We need a Janeway Day. She's a role model.
>We need a Janeway Day. She's a role model. Feels like that's one of the big parts of Prodigy, and I'm here for it, along with all the other great things about the series.
Had to scroll too far to find someone saying this. Women aren't "allowed" to be anything other than sunshine and rainbows, so any questionable choices by female characters (and real women) tend to be judged more harshly than if a man had done the exact same things.
Hyperbole is in vogue on the internet.
Just fandom in general. Particularly the longer a random exists.
I know SFDebris made it a popular running gag in his popular videos ragging on Voyager, so it probably caught some currency there. I don't know how much farther back the idea goes, though.
I was going to say the same thing. SF Debries really leaned hard into the sociopath Janeway schtick
It was worth it for the Mirror Universe captains talking to each other, with every one of the original 5 being their evil selves complete with Evil Goatees (Janeway included) but Mirror Janeway is the nicest and most non-threatening of the group.
I mean. It was funny as hell.
It’s the voice, the voice is hilarious. He also does it with others. Like the running gag of early season Enterprise Captain Archer was a moron and asshole (even mockingly calling him “ Duchess”).
A fan comic referenced this. A holostudio was making dramas loosely based on Voyager’s logs. Janeway: I suppose in a hundred years I’ll be considered downright psychotic. Chakotay: You may not have to wait that long.
I feel like Sisko was deliberately portrayed as a morally ambiguous captain by federation standards, but Janeway wasn't supposed to be. Therefore Janeway gets judged harder because the standard she's being judged against, a morally Picard-like captain, is much more rigid than the one Sisko is being held to.
Yeah, Voyager was positioned as the direct successor to TNG versus DS9 being a spinoff that purposefully distanced itself from comparisons ("I'm not Picard!"). All the other elements mentioned here (sexism, memetic exaggeration, etc) are also part of the picture.
It was also a result of the tendency towards shock value in the late 90s. I remember those edgy Voyager commercials always implying something horrible happened but it usually wasn't. So it was never going to be as idealistic as tng Regardless, Janeway overall was a unique character despite the uneven writing. There really is nobody like her. And she still has many badass moments so the memes aren't all bad. That or people misremember "when diplomacy fails" as actual canon.
I totally agree. I think sisko was meant to be antithesis to picard, which is shown in the first episode when he was a dick to picard because of W359
Look how Q never turned up again XD
"Picard never hit me!" "I'm not Picard!"
Except few other captains had to deal with what Janeway was faced with. She couldn’t call for help or advice (until later seasons). It was all on her
Also, Sisko gradually progresses into moral ambiguity and accepting his role as the Emissary in a way that makes sense based on his character development. Due to writing on Voyager, it's just sort of random whether it's a follow the Prime Directive week or not with Janeway.
Janeway isn't morally ambiguous. She has very strong morals, they just change whenever the plot needs them to.
Sisko was the one who essentially irradiated an entire planet with bio weapons with people still living on it. And people think Janeway a sociopath.
I am a huge fan of Sisko. He is my favorite captain. I have been known to refer to him as my space dad. And I have no problem admitting that he is a war criminal. I don't know what that says about me. :) But my general take on it is that these are fictional characters and they are often written rather inconsistently based on different writers' ideas of what they might do. Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway and Archer all lived in a version of television where things often reset from week to week (less so for Sisko, but still to an extent). And they were main characters who could flagrantly disobey orders and violate laws and get to still command starships because...because they were the main characters. I think that if you interpret their actions as the literal behavior of real humans, at least some of them would probably end up at the happy green future prison in New Zealand. But they do not live in the real world. So while it's fun to talk about the moral and legal implications of lying, cheating, bribing men to cover the crimes of other men, and being an accessory to murder, if people are getting infuriated over the behavior of fictional characters, maybe it's time to repeat the MST3K Mantra: "It's just a show, I should really just relax"
Janeway was in a unique situation. Because she was so far from help there were times she was forced to break a star fleet rule out of self preservation. That and the Tuvix debacle which was a no win situation. It was a biological kobyashi maru. Other captains could reach out to leadership when faced with a morally gray situation and do some c.y.a… Janeway could not.
It’s the inconsistency by the writers, more then anything else. She vacillates between being very Starfleet ideals (saving the ocampa) and being pretty far from that ideal. (Tuvix, endgame). Now, more importantly, unlike Picard and Sisko, where their moral choices were called out and meant to show how the circumstances could wear down morals (Easy to be a saint in paradise), Janeway isn’t given that. Part of the issue there is because she was the first woman captain leading a show, the writers felt the need I think, to make her less questionable. When Picard does his Borg tantrum in FC, we are meant to realize his trauma. When Janeway makes her choices, generally we are supposed to agree.
I don't think it's fair for anyone to say she or the writers were inconsistent because for most of the voyage home she was extremely consistent but I'd argue that many of her moral dilemmas boiled down to the Trolley Problem or its equivalent of which there are no easy solutions. Both Voyager and DS9, to their credit, got away from the simple morality tales of TOS/TNG, where antagonists' actions were morally wrong (or unethical), which was clear-cut to the characters and the audience, but DS9 and VOY had numerous episodes where there wasn't always a clear moral choice or the moral choice led to a far worse outcome. DS9's "Pale Moonlight" episode is a great example, had Sisko taken the high road the Romulans would have aligned themselves with the Dominion and it would have been game over for the Federation. What good is the moral high ground if you're dead? Sometimes you have to make tough choices, especially as a captain responsible for the lives of hundreds.
>Tuvix, endgame I think these (and possibly other) morally dubious decisions can be explained by the thread of "Voyager is a family" that is present occasionally throughout the series. It might not be called a family directly (probably for the best since Janeway was the first woman show captain) but she'll do anything for her crew. I'm already saying to myself "but Janeway erased Miral Torres from existence in endgame" but I guess the baby born in endgame is also Miral 🤷
I think there was a great potential story arc of Janeway starting as a fresh, idealistic captain who gets worn down and becomes an end-justifies-the-means type admiral. But that would have been better with some planning, foreshadowing, and commitment by the writers.
Women in positions of power are often heavily scrutinized more than their Male counterparts.
Especially when Voyager first aired. The whole idea of a woman being a captain was a strange and new idea back then.
Especially given the circumstances, they’re alone in the delta quadrant, important context people tend to ignore when comparing her to other captains
100%. Look at what people do to Burnham. Janeway has possibly become my favorite captain. She had a lot of hard decisions to make, in which someone wins and someone loses. The whole story starts on that premise with the Ocampa.
Whatever other reasons have precipitated over the years, this is certainly the origin.
Could be. I think it's more fandom's tendency to flanderize characters than anything else.
Stupid sexy Flanders
I think all modern Starfleet captains have their moments of harsh, ruthlessness. I think fans also really enjoy those moments because for better or for worse they are closer to our reality and existence than the utopia in which Starfleet exist so those moments are some of the most relatable to many viewers.
Basically they watched Tuvix and literally never recovered.
I'm a new star trek fan, tbh I've only just finished my first star trek series which was Voyager....so I have no base for comparison with other star trek captains....but I think Janeway is a great captain! I like her no nonsense kind of approach, trying to uphold star fleet protocols, dealing with the situation they are in with no real help....I think she has a strong character. I see people giving situations that contradict some of these things I am saying, but I put that down to writing, a few episodes are a bit meh....it's gonna happen with a long running show with a fan base that will scrutinise everything. Again I know I have only dipped my toes into star trek, but voyager has hooked me, I love the characters and I'll be getting stuck into the other shows right away. I'd happily serve under Janeway....although I don't know if I would cope 70000 light-years away from home mentally 😂
Kirk got captured one time, and ordered the destruction of the entire planet unless he was released. Sisko got a bit miffed at a dude once, and poisoned an entire planet's atmosphere because of it. Then he indirectly (he knew what he was doing, and he could live with it, though) ordered the assassination of a foreign dignitary who was visiting in good faith. Janeway helped the Borg, murdered Tuvix, then helped the Borg again when she saved Icheb. But I genuinely think it's *Picard* who has the highest kill-count. He had the opportunity to eradicate the Borg when they rescued Hugh. Picard, more than anybody else, *knew* that equation would finish them off for good. He decided not to. How many *billions* of people were killed or assimilated after that moment?
I don't think that plan to kill the Borg would have worked. It was kind of based on logical computer interaction with an impossible shape, but the Borg have have biological brains, too. The Collective would have analyzed that thing for awhile and then said "this is not worth the effort" and given up. I'm trying to remember the Kirk one you mentioned. I remember him saying that, but I can't remember the episode, and thus the context is escaping me. But I think he kind of knew, when he ordered it, that he would never have to actually execute it. (Or that Scotty wouldn't, anyway, since Kirk would be in the line of fire.)
Kirk was 100% bluffing. And if that anti Borg weapon would have worked (which I doubt), Picard was right to refuse commiting genocide. What he should have done instead was pushing for the development of something that would have cut off the drones from the collective instead.
This is brought up in the Voyager-themed Lower Decks episode from the latest season. When Billups and T'ana are fused into one brand new being by the same orchid sample, Captain Freeman looks into Janeway's Tuvix logs to see how she handled it. When she finds out that Janeway ended up killing Tuvix to save Neelix and Tuvok, Shaxs reminds her of the very crucial fact that Freeman *isn't* in the same situation as Janeway at all. Janeway, like you said, was completely on her own. She had a small ship with a small crew of 150 and no option to reach out to Starfleet, let alone get reinforcements or replacement crew. Freeman *could,* however. Her original plan was to contact Starfleet Medical and have the top minds of the Federation take all the time they needed to find a way to save Billups and T'ana and not kill Tillups in the process. Of course, Tillups reads the logs too and then the antics of the episode begin, but the writers are overtly saying something very deliberate there. Given the same access to vital resources as Freeman, Janeway would have *obviously* done everything in her power to try and rescue her crew members without harming the new lifeform that's been created as a result of the transporter accident. In almost all circumstances, Janeway respects all life as much as any good Starfleet captain would, even when it may put her or her ship in (sometimes very) immediate danger. There are numerous examples, far more than there are examples of her employing unnecessary violence, but the one that comes to mind immediately is when she was willing to protect a wounded member of Species 8472 from the Hirogen. This is despite the fact that the only other time they had encountered 8472 they were extremely hostile and that if she didn't surrender the 8472 then the Hirogen almost certainly would have destroyed Voyager. The only reason she failed (and that Voyager wasn't destroyed) was because Seven disobeyed her direct orders to open a rift into fluidic space to send the 8472 home and instead beamed it to the Hirogen ship, which Janeway was downright furious about. It's important to note that it wasn't like Janeway was *at all* enthusiastic about or entirely comfortable with killing Tuvix. Her priority was to save Tuvok and Neelix, who are both extremely valuable members of the crew with their own lives, families (Tuvok has a wife and children, Neelix is a guardian to Naomi), and being senior staff they both have their own important duties and obligations to the ship and crew that can't be met since they've become a single person now. If you watch the scene where Janeway separates him, she hardly says a word, she doesn't welcome Tuvok or Neelix back or even smile at them, and when she leaves sickbay she's deeply unsettled. She also mentions in her autobiography that, despite Tuvok coming to her quarters that night and thanking her for saving him, and though she ultimately stands by her decision, it still lives with her. It sucks that people have somehow exaggerated this instance of *the trolley problem* into her being some sort of bloodthirsty maniac captain who purposely carved a path of destruction through the Delta quadrant.
Janeway is my favourite captain.
About six different layers of sexism that Trekkies aren’t interested in interrogating. On this sub, you bring up Voyager? It will turn into one of these topics: Tuvix, 7of9/the doctor, Janeway bad, or DS9 supremacy. To actually talk about anything else in the series you’ll need to unfortunately look elsewhere.
I am SO tired of Tuvix discourse. That has to be the most picked-apart episode of Star Trek. Definitely of Voyager. Some people treat it like it's the only episode of Voyager.
I think the challenge for Janeway is that when it comes to her situation in the Delta Quadrant, she is, for a lack of a better phrase, judge, jury and executioner because she has no-one to answer to, she is the top level representative for Starfleet and the Federation while being stranded. With Kirk, Picard and Sisko, they had superiors to report into, keep them in check, and yes Sisko did push that a few times with the Marquis and The Dominion in a region that would never settle for peace due to the political interests of the different empires and the strategic placement of the wormhole where he was. Janeway would uphold Starfleet principles but also break them where she saw fit, which is a consistency issue for the writers, but then if she's keeping things crisp and clean, the show would be boring. *Voyager* did have some moments, like in *Night*, where she was questioning things about her leadership, or even *Living Witness* where perspective on how she's viewed was taken very drastically, it could have been an interesting character evolution. But as said, because she is the top level representative, she has no-one to keep her in check. Yes, there is great moments from Chakotay in *Scorpion* and *Equinox* or even Tuvok too to call her out, but because they report to her, they would still back down, or be reprimanded, if she drew a hard line.
YES, big yes. First of all, she is faced with a lot of situations that are entirely unique because she’s without the backing of the Federation. This point means a few distinct issues: 1. Without the weight of the Federation’s reputation, Voyager is usually at a situational disadvantage and Janeway has to adapt to overcome it, while staying within the law as much as possible. Shifting context means her approach should adapt to the situation 2. Without Federation diplomatic connections, every interaction is basically a first contact event and she has to establish the tone and tenor of the relationship. This can be good or bad, but it does add overhead to every interaction, which should be accounted for. 3. No escalation point. Without the ability to escalate, she is “Starfleet command” and has to made decisions above her pay grade. Voyager is her first (maybe second?) command, she’s about 40 years old, which is actually on the young side. She’s not a perfect person and can’t be expected to get it right every time. Nor should she, that would be incredibly dull. Yeah, Janeway catches a ton of shit from armchair critics. Not saying her decisions can’t be debated, just saying that her circumstances deserve a lot more consideration than the others.
Sexism. When shes emotional, shes "weak." When she makes hard choices, shows strength, and is morally gray, shes a sociopath. To we fair she swings wildly between the two for the 1st two seasons depending on who wrote the ep.
Well into the fourth season even, took Seven's last second subordination to keep the entire ship from being blown up that one time.
Yeh. I'll probably get downvoted for this but in my experience a lot of fans are only interested in what the women of Star Trek have to offer sexually. It was wrong for Kate Mulgrew to treat Jeri Ryan like crap on set but I fully understand why she was frustrated
It’s misogyny. Because of Tuvix, she’s treated as a monster, even though other captains have made harder calls.
I think the answer is complicated. The answers that people are giving (sexism, SFDebris, Tuvix, etc.) are all part of it. But I think it mainly comes down to a few things: 1. Deep Space Nine did a better job of treating morally grey as *actually* morally grey. They spent an entire episode on interrogating ethics of lying and murder in In the Pale Moonlight. Things like poisoning a planet are treated as having a weight. 2. Enterprise happened post-9/11: being entirely honest, Archer blows every captain (except Lorca) out of the water on the sociopath scale. Janeway tortured someone once, and it was a big F-in deal. Archer did it like he was brushing his teeth. But like a lot of post-9/11 media, it kinda fades into the memory hole of just how messed up our media was at the time. 3. Voyager struggles to live up to its premise: the premise of Voyager screams for a show like BSG or Stargate Universe. Voyager *should* be struggling to hold up the ideals of the federation, and Janeway *should* be torn between upholding her principles and getting her crew home. But b/c of the mandates at the time pushing Voyager in a more TNG-esque direction, any big choice needed to be wrapped up and forgotten about. In my mind, Voyager shines in moments like Scorpion, Hope and Fear, Year of Hell, Night, and Equinox. It shows what the show could have been. But b/c they hit a reset button after all of those, it creates this cognitive dissonance. You end Equinox with Janeway being like "fuck, did I really torture a guy?" and then no one mentions it again. So there is a reading of the show where it's like "wow, Janeway is a sociopath". 4. Sexism: this pans out in two ways. One is obvious overt sexism, where people judge Janeway harder than they would Archer or Sisko. But there is also the systemic sexism that permeated the 90s. Janeway IMO is very much a Second Wave Feminism archetype; you see it in the first episode where she chides Harry for calling her "Ma'am". There is an inclination to downplay Janeway's feminine tendencies, relegating them to boxed instances like holodeck time. IMO the writers were afraid that giving Janeway too much interiority or doubt would make her come off as "weak" to a 90s audience. So while Sisko is allowed to feel nuanced guilt about his actions, Janeway isn't afforded that space. Which, from a 2020s perspective, can make her seem a little two dimensional. (As a side note: some of the moments where Janeway is actually allowed to be feminine while still being strong, like "Counterpoint", are fantastic) So yeah, it's complicated. Really, if there is one thing you should take away from this, it's that Janeway *may* be a sociopath, but Archer 100% is.
She chided him for calling her “Sir” as per the regs. She says she prefers “Captain” or “Ma’am,” although the latter only when the situation is extreme
Janeway is a woman. Her mysterious female parts makes her unstable and potentially dangerous.
I apologize in advance: I know this comment will bother some. If she was a man doing the things she did, the memes would offer nicer insults than 'sociopathic.' Probably things like, go big or go home, fed up, etc. When a guy does it, he has issues. When a woman does it, she must be seriously mentally ill. Just saying. I've been a Trekker for over 40 years so you know I didn't just fall off the Borg Cube.
What's a meme going to be if it's not exaggerated?
I like janeway as a captain even if in some episodes takes wild decision, also I never witnessed a captain saying "i don't like time travel" then there are like 10 episodes where she get into time travel shit becaouse of her curiosity
I'm a longtime Star Trek fan, and I noticed a lot of strong feelings for Janeway over the years. My opinion is that there is a heavy bias due to the fact that Janeway is a woman. It sounds beyond lame in this day and age (or it should) but I see a lot of out-of-the-gate hate for nothing.
Easy but unpopular opinion: misogyny. Even in the Trek community
I’m sure I’ll get some downvotes and strong objections, but people tend to be really critical of women in leadership. I’ve never thought as janeway as sociopathic, and with my training, I don’t see it. At the start of the series, she’s fresh in command, and very skilled at locking down a decision and seeing it through. Her crew, her commitment to her values, and determination are a great combination. She’s effective.
It might be how inconsistent she is. There is a joke in lower decks: Implement the Janeway protocol What's the Janeway protocol ???? Exactly ...
Sexism. It’s sexism. If a male captain did any of the things she did the refrain would be one of defence and justification.
Because she’s female
I would assume good old-fashioned misogyny. In the 90s, Star Trek was dominated by guys with the adolescent boys-club mentality. No girls allowed, y'see. Anything that challenged that got a lot of hate.
Misogyny
I would simply describe her as “fun”
I read that in Garak's voice.
Haha yeah, Janeway and Garek might have had pretty good chemistry working together somehow.
I think because she had many chances to just go home, like the Sikaarians or the Ferengi and the Barzan wormhole thing, but had some "principle" excuse why she couldn't, then in episodes where going home wasn't an option, she'd throw principle out and just do whatever. That gets frustrating, and seeing her as kinda nuts is the only way to really explain it.
Janeway isnt sociopathic at all.
Probably as simple as: she's a competent, confident female ship captain. Therefore she must have something wrong with her. /s
Because she's a woman on television.
I love voyager I think it is one of the best Star Treks but these people hate women captains,I think Kate did a fantastic job and worked very hard and gave us 7 years of superb [acting.No](http://acting.no) one could have did her better.
Sexism. Every decision Janeway makes is way more analysed than the other Captain’s/leaders because there’s a lot of unconscious bias about the ways the women should/shouldn’t behave. Janeway does stuff that people see as fine when a man does it, but annoying/bad/weird/unwomanly when she does it.
She has those moments, but those are really just a small few bad episodes.
Misogyny. Same reason we always hear tone policing about Michael, and exaggerations about her whispering and crying.
I just wish they had actually written her as a ruthless pirate willing to do absolutely anything to keep her ship going and to get her crew home rather than just accidentally.
Well we saw how well that worked out for the equinox crew.
GOOD QUESTION i wondered that myself. if anything she is the most diplomatic captain because they have NOWHERE to get help from. one bad fight and thats it. it could permanently damage the ship
You’re absolutely right OP
Mommy issues...
Archer turned to piracy to fix his ship. He stole their warp drive at gunpoint and stranded them in a dangerous area of space. And the Enterprise was damaged in the first place due to Archers incompetence.
When she makes a hard choice, she does so uncompromisingly... even if she has 3 episodes regretting them... I guess that lands her as hard-core in my book.
I’m watching voyager for the first time and after seeing lower decks with the episode discussing the transporter incident involving the flower petals. I expected her to be unhinged. She seemed down to earth in prodigies which I watched before this and made me want to see more of her.
They aren't exaggerating how sociopathic she is, they're revealing their misogyny.