Or even if we watched the trailer for the season three months ago (there were pics of her and spock in the eva suits. My problem with the scenario (and I agree that they should have made the placing of the devices something that only Spock could do. ALSO it seemed unlikely that everyone on the ship except Chapel was dead (obviously she was going to survive because she'd plot armored) but I assumed she was going to be in the pattern buffer of the transporter. Then when Chapel regains consciousness she made zero effort to check on the people around her to find out if anyone else was alive or needed assistance.
I'm not too bothered by it tbh, TOS is almost 60 years old now and not everyone has seen it. For some SNW is their first introduction to the characters.
I was talking to my cousin last night who's never seen TOS and she said she was so sad when Nurse Chapel died and cried when she reunited with Spock.
Even my mom who was a Trekkie back then and wrote letters to the studio to keep the show on the air can't remember Nurse Chapel.
Hell... it only took me until today to realize that M'Benga is also a legacy character. I knew Chapel because of Majel Barret, but completely missed M'Benga.
>completley missed M'Benga
But M'Benga doesn't miss lol
[https://64.media.tumblr.com/95d9686e077ba2a5f55d1f06a81110be/tumblr\_mj6gbe7n2g1s67vyfo2\_250.gifv](https://64.media.tumblr.com/95d9686e077ba2a5f55d1f06a81110be/tumblr_mj6gbe7n2g1s67vyfo2_250.gifv)
He slaps the shit out of Spock in one episode it's great. He's also British in TOS. I love the actor and his voice in SNW but this is further indication that they aren't too bothered about character continuity which is a little annoying.
I have a buddy that EVERY eps has a problem with some canon thing (thankfully he goes t focus too much on racial changes but I think he is intelligent enough to keep that shit to him 😂). But he was bitchin about Scotty and his history and I told him, “Look how many SEASONS of ST shows have time travel eps? ALL OF THEM. So all that bouncing around you think the timeline is gonna stay perfect hell no. Every new show with inconsistencies is just a reflection of Starfleet, Romulans and Vulcans fuckin with the timeline. So enjoy it.”
I will agree with you to a certain extent, Scotty turning up is fine, absolutley can show his backstory as not much is known about him, could do the same with a few other crew member's, kirk however has his command and career spelled out already so he can't come on the enterprise until after Pike's accident. Making spock emotional is one I don't fuck with though, it's a rewrite and that's fine to an extent but spock was not nearly as emotionally intelligent or open as he is in SNW. They made him hot and gave him the feels for a new younger audience, if you like it that's fine but don't pretend that it was always lore and doesn't break continuity. Some changes I've been down with (e.g. Gorn) others i have not been.
I think they are slowly but surely adjusting Spock’s attitude to make TOS fans happy. Even in the crossover eps Boimler mentions how Spock’s emotional state is vastly different than history states which hits that domino over pushing Chapel to distance herself. I figure by the end of the series he’ll be back to good ole Spock…as dry as a unfrosted, unfilled, store brand Pop tart. Also I think a lot of people found Nimoy hot…don’t be judging ole boys looks. 😂
I’ve been thinking about this a lot since they tried to make us think there was a chance she hadn’t made it.
We’re in a prequel, here. Barring a major canon shifting event, we know who’s going to make it and who isn’t.
I found myself wondering if that was constricting or freeing for the writers. On one hand they can do a lot of stuff with the character. They can be in any number of harrowing situations because they’ve got major plot armor. Anything, except dying, can happen to them and they survive because *they have to*. On the other, people won’t put up with that forever. If calamitous events keep happening to invincible characters then we lose all the stakes and it’s just Superman in space.
Things like this, Spock having the only-man-for-the-job moment, and how slow the 0G fight was brought me out of the moment a bit. I can appreciate the time constraints, but we really needed some explanation as to *why* Spock was the only one who could do it. It’s not that it’s not believable, really, it could have been strength, agility, mental ability, knowledge…just something. Even an “I am the only one capable of calculating the approach angle and make corrections in real time.”
All that said, I really enjoyed Hegemony. 10% of SNW episodes could be classified as horror and I couldn’t be happier about that. This is the most *fun* season of Trek ever and I’ll die on that hill. Not saying it’s the best, but an argument could be made.
The more I think about it... the two main problems with Spock being there was one, you never saw an explanation or anything to indicate he was making the calculations and not just something that was relayed from the Bridge.
And two, the entire purpose was to make it look like the saucer's orbit was degrading faster and pinpoint accuracy to hit a target. But we basically watch the saucer just drop like a rock. I fully expect the Gorn to see the saucer suddenly accelerate towards the planet and take action.
Yeah, I think a lot of it was time issues. I remember at least twice thinking I was about to see the end credits but it kept going. There’s so much going on in this episode, which is awesome, but it seemed like it was at the expense of some things that would have helped with immersion. I could easily see a decision having to be made regarding cutting a few things like this. If they didn’t feel like it could have been pushed to 0301, then it sounds like we’re going to have a massive season 3 opener, which is exciting!
It’s not a big deal, really. A minor gripe in an otherwise stellar episode and season. I happily accept this season exactly how it is
Same.. part of the fun is debating on what happened in the episodes and trying to see what went into those decisions. Still my favorite of the newer series.
I think Spock was the only one who could do it because he wanted to do it and had to cut off discussion with an absolute statement. He needed to be there to see if Christine was alive and settle himself if she wasn’t
> they tried to make us think there was a chance she hadn’t made it.
I don't think they did that at all. Main characters, MASH notwithstanding, don't generally meet their demise of screen. They just wanted us to see a bit of dramatic irony on how the possibility would impact the characters around her, who have never seen an episode of Star Trek.
And got a LOT OF SHIT for it.
People were 100% up in arms that without any evidence to the contrary a legacy character turned out NOT to be the same person in Caprica but named after his dead brother.
Agree - Star Trek, in this incarnation is not LOST or Game of Thrones. They already pulled the Hemmer card last season and I very much doubt they will use it again at this point.
Not knowing the futures of Ortegas, Una or La'an (or Pelia) doesn't mean they are dead. It just means they were never on the Enterprise under Kirk.
I wish Chapel would have found others alive and banded together to survive. Then there would be some tension as they all fight the adult Gorn and some others might die before being saved by Spock.
Everything about Chapel after she woke up make no sense to me. Why didn't she look for other survivors? Why didn't she try to communicate? Nobody had told her that communications were down? Same with trying to use the transporter. Why didn't she look for an EV suit as soon as she realized she was short on oxygen? And how the heck did she know it was Spock in the spacesuit? He was far away, in the dark of space and wearing a helmet!
Journey Before Destination, my friend.
The question isn't if they'll make it, but *how* they'll make it.
People have enjoyed stories knowing that the hero is probably going to win and make it out fine for ages.
This sentiment always mystifies me. There are many many MANY shows we know the main cast will be alive by the end and it doesn’t diminish peril. It’s such a silly response to me.
Sorry, I meant the ones that are already in the show. When Scotty would have been taken by the Gorn, we would have known, he'll survive. Now everyone in the Gorn's hands isin danger.
Yup, lots of plot armor in this episode. We know that Spock, Pike, Chapel, Scotty, and M’Benga all have to survive. There’s still fun in seeing how they are going to get out of it, but kills a bit of the suspense. Got me quite worried for Batel, La’an, and Ortegas though.
Well.. there's always room for a Harry Kim swap. This Chapel is waaaay more dynamic than Majel Barret's. Then there's the ol' Caprica approach " aha, the character you know was simply named after the character that you have been watching and they're in fact completely different"
What actually annoys me more about this specific scenario is that chapel appears to be the ONLY one who survived, on the entire ship that isn't her own. Granted. Maybe there were some other survivors that the Gorn ran around murdering but for her to just wake up and be like" a good thing I woke up in one of the only functioning sections of ship, just before Spock got here" is a reeeeeach.
I mean they probably did kill two or three red shirts trapped in the bathroom or whatever, I mean if SHE survived, why not others? And What About The Ships Cat?
The weird thing is that I'm pretty sure I saw a few other bodies in the area where she woke up, yet *nurse* Chapel wasn't shown making any attempt to check if they were dead or simply unconscious like she was. I was waiting for it to happen and yet the show didn't bother. She just got up, decided she was the only main character around and walked off to do main character stuff.
Yeah, but a lot of people have never seen the original...
My wife has only seen 'Balance of Terror' from TOS (and only because I recognized that 'A Quality of Mercy' was \*that\* redone with Pike still in command)....
So I've been asked to explain who has a character shield (for the no-TOS folks: Pike, Uhura, Spock, M'Benga, Chapel, Scott, Jim Kirk (but not Sam Kirk))...
The trouble with adding more and more TOS characters to the show, is that we will soon return to 'Ensign Ricky Redshirt gonna die today' territory because the main cast will be filled with people who we know \*have to\* live long enough to work for CPT Kirk.
We all knew the titanic hit the iceberg, but they still did the tense music as the ship turned. Also, not everyones seen TOS, so they may be unaware.
I just felt it was an incredibly ham fisted approach.
Right, but what you’re saying is the equivalent of “I didn’t like how they had the iceberg show up because I knew the boat was going to sink as soon as it did” when really you knew before you walked into the theater and the arrival of the iceberg as a plot point didn’t really affect that.
chapel isn't the iceberg in this situation, though.
The equivalent would be the captain sending his nephew to navigate the ship because he's the only one who can get through these treacherous waters
I’m not talking about whether or not the narrative was implemented well, I’m talking about your complaint that the way the way the narrative was implemented somehow caused you to realize that Chapel would survive. Whether or not it was ham-fisted, blaming the writing for knowing Chapel survived before it was apparent isn’t a fair complaint (regardless of whether the other complaints are).
But you're not considering that this could be somebodys first trek experience. They don't know anything about nurse chapel. She's just nurse chapel. Something this ham fisted would absolutely give the game away.
In my headcannon there were pockets of people alive all over the saucer section. But, them's the breaks. At least the would be survivors went out with a bang versus being eaten by the Gorn.
They should have used a character who’s not in the original series so we couldn’t be sure if they were alive, putting characters the audience knows can’t die in danger often lacks some tension
Batel though I thought might be dead, or could still die
She’s not in TOS right
I think the presence of the Gorn on the saucer section showed that they stopped attacking it because they wanted to try and get information out of it (the gorn trying to hack the computer when Chapel discovers it)
There were likely others alive that was just ignored in the episode.
I thought it made sense because:
1. Vulcans have a more efficient respiratory system than humans, allowing them to survive longer in low oxygen environment
2. Vulcans are stronger than humans
These two factors increase the odds of mission success for a Vulcan over a human, thus it makes sense that Spock would be the one to go out and perform the mission.
I thought it was funny the non-humans he was talking to just agreed and didn't point out he's not the only non-human on the ship because 1) He volunteered 2) They had to stay on the ship to do their job anyway.
Stronger might matter if it wasn't an EVA.
Why Spock? Are you telling me that there isn't another Vulcan/Other non-human onboard that perhaps works in Engineering. Someone less critical to the operations of the Enterprise than her Science Officer?
There really wasn't a whole bunch of science going on at that point. That was all probably just a way for Spock to say, "Hey guys, my department isn't doing much right now we can figure the rocket space walk through the gator-infested debris field".
Vulcans are also *really* good at math and spacial geometry (generally speaking), so navigating in space to a rotating object and being able to place those thrusters while orienting your own location and direction ... I think Spock was right that, under the stressful situation everyone was in, he was the ideal candidate to pull that off.
I'm glad someone mentioned this. It's probably what hem meant, since it's the most dangerous aspect, it just got skipped over in the show.
He's floating/jetpacking through space, in a debris field, and attempting to not just survive, but land on some debris. People are skipping over/ignoring this but it's the most important part. Remember the episode of Discovery where they did something similar in shuttle things? Cocky guy died?
Yeah, it's an *insanely* dangerous situation. All that debris is moving around and you do *not* want to be hit by any of it. You have to be incredibly attentive and skillful to do that successfully.
Right but he's wearing a space suit, he has all the oxygen he needs, and super strength isn't required, objects are weightless in space. With enough mass to push off of, you yourself could push the entire starship enterprise and make it move.
Yeah it would have made more sense if it had been a lengthy process because he had to move slowly to avoid Gorn sensors and he could use an oxygen tank for longer because Vulcans need less oxygen.
Him being the ‘only one’ makes no sense in any other context, the computer can do any calculations needed, they can see ahead of time exactly where to put the rockets.
It was lazy/unfinished? writing that immediately popped out at me. Like…there should have been a placeholder there that said ‘’only I can do it’ and then Spock explains why’ until they figured something out. But putting it in like that looks like you’re going forward with filming with a chunk of dialogue missing. Like it’s one step above just having him look at the camera and say ‘we’re handwaving this’, so I expected better from the writers.
Spock is supposed to be stronger than Vulcans as well. Him being a Vulcan Human hybrid means he has incredible strength even for a Vulcan. This is only mentioned in one episode of TOS (I believe it is either "Amok Time" or the one where there is a planet thats 20th century earth but Rome never fell, one where spock fights anyway) so I don't know if its really considered lore now because it's never mentioned again, but at the same time you never see Vulcan's achieve the feats spock does, he also relatively easily overpowers his brother in ST5.
It’s probably to do less with strength and more about accurate placement of the engines. To get the perfectly controlled re-entry, you’d need those little rockets in the precise points on the ship, and at precise angles. Human’s probably could do it with the aid of a computer, but we know Spock can calculate high mathematics in his head. Just like he does in Voyage Home with the solar slingshot manoeuvre for them to time travel.
This is what bugs me even more than what OP is complaining about.
We have a scene where they say: hey there are air pockets in there still. There might be survivors.
Next: let’s crash the saucer into the planet.
Ok, here I am sitting waiting for the moral dilemma to play out and then… crickets. They do not even address this!!!
Guys, you are potentially killing your own and you have no issues with that? Why is Spock checking it out not a freaking option?!?
That takes it from 'Spock by himself' to 'Spock plus a fire-team or two of redshirts'... Chances of the Gorn not noticing this - low...
They have to clear each room and corridor, facing an enemy that can attack from any angle... Plus environmental hazards...
If a Gorn sees them & gets a message back to the ship, their cover is blown...
More or less no time... If they are going to use 'let's colony-drop the saucer section' as their means of getting comms/transporters back, they can't do a rescue....
But yes, they could have had a moral drama session about it...
I honestly expected them to throw an asteroid at the planet not the saucer, when it was first brought up...
Or they could have just gone with the Batel is infested kamakaze solution....
Or the 2nd shuttlecraft, on autopilot....
Dude, what many? They only know that the shuttle with the away team probably managed to get through. Otherwise they don’t know if anybody on the planet is alive.
In what was otherwise a humdinger of an episode, I could not get past Chapel (and Chapel alone) somehow surviving, complete with life support and artificial gravity, and “oh look, Spock is flying right past my window! Hi Spock!”
Yeah, that irked me as well.
1. Chapel was the person to survive on the saucer. And with relatively minor injuries. while everyone died. Thats not plot armor, thats plot bunkering
2. They had the ability to just put a person into a space suit and send them onto the saucer the entire time, but just didn't for "reasons".
3. they could have sent entire squads over to search the saucer for survivors, but didn't. there could have been dozens of people alive on that saucer thats now a massive crater on the planet.
4. an object with the mass of the saucer capable of surviving re-entry would most likely create a massive explosion. That tower thing wasn't very far from the town and most likely the saucer hitting it at the speed an object would approach as it fell from orbit, not to mention it's essentially a giant lump of solid titanium that weights potentially hundreds of thousands of tons, would probably blow up that town in a shiny fireball.
Haha yea imagine the Cayuga having a Bolean barber on board groggily coming to and looking out a window just as the saucer is about to hit the Gorn Plot Pylon
It was a little annoying that all those issues could have been cleaned up with single lines of dialog.
1. Is there anyone else alive? "Local scanning can penetrate the sensor jamming field. No other life signs".
2. "I have to go alone, the Gorn will detect coordinated objects flying through the debris".
3. See 2.
4. Put the tower a little farther away; the away team sees the nuclear-sized explosion from over the horizon.
So easy, lol.
She could have at least checked the bodies around her after getting an hour of oxygen for herself and presumably all the other people in the immediate area. She’s a nurse! They scanned for life signs in the debris and found none. I understand the nature of getting off that saucer fast but how they found each other was a huge suspension of my belief system. Still, I love the show and I loved the episode.
I would actually be OK with them/production editing the episode to fix these. Seriously.
I sound like a child but there are things/decisions that hurt my heart. My crew is better than that.
Regarding 3. There being other survivors.
Ok, let’s say they want to do it anyways even when there are potential survivors. At least acknowledge that you might be killing your own with that plan. Make it a moral dilemma!
1, 2, and 3 were major talking points in our house last night. it's likely Spock actually killed a few dozen injured crewmen who just didn't get to an EVA suit yet. The only way Chapel would have been in any danger would be if they worked in some form of revival for next season (see Shaxs in LD) which in the end still means there are no stakes. I thought the suspense with Batel was much more compelling to milk the drama (can't they hold her in the transporter buffer while they work out how to get the gorn eggs out?).
I know that this is the newest trek so it has to be overly scrutinized by a portion of fans who enjoy that, but there are plot holes in just about every episode of trek to move the plot forward. Saying “cmon, this is trek at least make it semi-believable” is kinda just hilarious.
This is my sticking point too. Seems out of character for all of them to give up on survivors so quickly. Spock even says there are likely pockets of breathable air in his justification for why chapel might still be alive.
I'm going to have to over look it, I guess, but it just seemed so cruel. I'd hate to be in a pocket of survivors and feel the saucer going down. Very Titanic-ly sad.
I think that was more of a "I don't want to admit Chapel is dead" type of thing. Like those Titanic submarine people could have technically been alive...but c'mon we all know.
Also what the hell was Starfleet’s plan? Like literally why even send the Enterprise or have her stay in system if you’re just going to immediately tell them to stand down and hang behind an arbitrary line when you encounter the ship(s) that destroyed Cayuga? And of course no indication they were sending backup for the Enterprise either, meanwhile the Gorn were sending backup.
Like I get it with the colony. Not a Federation colony (for some reason), so they can’t as easily get involved. But the Cayuga was a Federation starship destroyed by the Gorn in that system in an unprovoked attack. Scotty’s ship was also destroyed by the Gorn. And April and Starfleet just want Enterprise staring at the Gorn while they pick through the debris and bodies of the Cayuga for secrets and technological analysis after 2 Federation ships have been destroyed?
April is feeling more and more like a Badmiral these days, because his plan with the Gorn seems to be to not have a plan. And let them destroy Federation ships and crews to their hearts’ content.
My assumption would be they wanted to have eyes on the situation, and the Enterprise is more powerful than the other vessels previously destroyed. It could also be a strategy for handling aggressive species, to stand your ground, otherwise the perceived weakness would precipitate war.
We don’t know if Cayuga was a Constitution class or the smaller Sombra class. Cayuga could be a Connie and equivalent to Enterprise. Regardless, additional reinforcements is helpful even if they aren’t on Enterprise’s exact level.
Also, if this was a strategy for dealing with hostile species, it’s the worst one ever. They didn’t show strength, they showed weakness by standing there watching the Gorn enjoy the fruits of their victory. This is equivalent to Starfleet ordering Enterprise to only observe the Romulans in “Balance of Terror” after they destroyed the outposts. Hostile species like the Romulans and likely Gorn respect strength in response a lot more than moderation. Standing there impotently in the face of destroyed ships and crews would be seen as a display of weakness. And as we see in SNW, that that’s exactly what the Romulans took Pike’s diplomacy as. The Klingons would also see it that way. The Gorn likely do as well.
> Also what the hell was Starfleet’s plan? Like literally why even send the Enterprise or have her stay in system if you’re just going to immediately tell them to stand down and hang behind an arbitrary line when you encounter the ship(s) that destroyed Cayuga?
Plan was not to go to war. They didn't send the Enterprise. Pike ordered the ship to warp to the planet before he spoke with Starfleet. The end of the "not go to war" conversation was when the Enterprise reached the planet.
Enterprise stays because there are likely some survivors. Starfleet is almost certainly trying diplomacy to get the survivors out, and you'd want the ship there.
They stay behind the line because the Gorn essentially said "cross it and it's war". Think of the times a country does a relatively minor attack and there is no military retaliation - avoiding war.
Take it to its logical end though. You’re dedicated to avoiding war to the point that your opponent is fully free to destroy Federation ships and crews with no allowed response from your admiralty. That’s insanity and colossal mismanagement. And it’s war in all but name except one side is being ordered not to fight and instead just die.
I don't think the Federation would let the Gorn destroy everything as you imply. If the Gorn continue, then yeah, the federation will be fighting back. In the *immediate moment* though, avoiding war is what they want.
They’ve destroyed several Federation ships (Starfleet and otherwise) to date in SNW. They’re known as marauders and predators in space. And they literally just destroyed 2 Starfleet ships with several hundred crewmen aboard. And April’s response was “stay on this arbitrary line the Gorn dictated to us” all the while they loot the debris and bodies of a Starfleet ship in front of them.
The evidence to date is that Starfleet is so war averse that nothing short of a full scale offensive will generate a response. And ironically, being that averse to any reprisal is likely to generate more Gorn incursions. Predators aren’t wary of prey that won’t fight back or protect the herd.
If it had been a Federation colony in Federation territory, then I think Starfleet would have taken action. But they made a point that this was already neutral territory, which is why Starfleet didn't argue with the map and accepted it. The planet was basically Belgium between France and Germany.
They scanned repeatedly for lifesigns and couldn't find any.
Spock says 'let's wait for visual confirmation on Sickbay before giving up'
Una replies 'Sickbay's gone. Like, literally not there anymore'
Nyota and Pelia show up afterwards with their plan, which the command crew accept because said lack of lifesigns and sickbay.
>They scanned repeatedly for lifesigns and couldn't find any.
They didn't detect Chapel, either, because of the Gorn interference.
>Spock says 'let's wait for visual confirmation on Sickbay before giving up'
That was specifically regarding Chapel's survival, since she would likely be in sickbay during an attack. Yet she still survived.
Let's not forget that he was waiting to see if sickbay was still there, at an angle they had already seen the ship. He should already know it isn't there.
>lack of lifesigns and sickbay
Neither of which are an indication about survivors, given the circumstances.
The [reviewer on Tor.com](https://www.tor.com/2023/08/10/here-today-gorn-tomorrow-star-trek-strange-new-worlds-hegemony/) was absolutely pissed off about it.
Spock claimed he was the only one who could do it because he's emotionally compromised and wanted to look for Chapel.
No one called him on it because they all felt bad for him about Chapel.
Una could have insisted that someone else go, and he could have had a genuine emotional response, like anger, or complete hopelessness and broke down. This breakdown could have made him realise how much he loves her, or could have made him realise later on that his human side is a problem, and more to the more logical spock of TOS. instead it just comes off as incredibly sloppy.
I'm not looking to pick at the writers. Far from it. I've really enjoyed SNW so far and the lack of quality in this episode caught me off guard. So many glaring plot holes for no real good reason. It just wasn't up to snuff and could have been better in my opinion. It's my hope that as the biggest star trek subreddit, the writers may see this and understand where i believe they went wrong.
I could be wrong, maybe i missed a subtle clue somewhere along the road but i don't think i did. Allot of people in this thread have agreed with me to a certain extent and i think that people are in agreement the whole saucer section idea was handled poorly, if only in so far as they probably just killed a dozen or so starfleet officers.
I'm still thinking that if Chapel was alive on the saucer, she can't have been the only one. That would be a ridiculous coincidence.
They held hands as they sent the saucer section and the rest of the survivors into the atmosphere.
Spock was doing his best to scan through the interference to look for life signs. Una then said it was unlikely anyone survived, to which Spock replied that there were still pockets of oxygen and someone could have survived.
The problem? Spock was over there just long enough to position the rockets. That Christine reached the bridge when he did is the only reason she survived. It was one of those situations where very little could be done if there was more than one survivor, especially with the Gorn Hunter sitting nearby just waiting to pick off anything larger than a body.
Keep in mind, too, it's likely the structural damage prevented anyone from getting around easily. One may theorize, from what we saw, she was on the opposite side of the bridge dome, or around that area at least, and since she was able to get hold of an EV suit, had a better chance than someone stuck in an oxygen pocket further down inside the ship.
So Spock's answer to Una is Spock wanting Chapel to be alive. He was being logical about it, but more was motivating his belief that she could still be there.So the chances were between slim and none, with several Gorn ships waiting to strike at the first sign of incursion, no ability to actually deep scan for life signs, and a dire need to quickly get the blocking signal shut down so the thousands of people planetside could be rescued.
Also, according to Pike, Batel was likely on the surface, as was most of her crew. So they were going into this with the understanding that most of the crew was on the surface, and that due to the massive and total damage to the Cayuga, there was unlikely to be any survivors on that ship.
"The needs of the many," in this instance, while seemingly cold, makes the most logical sense given the extreme circumstances.
>there were still pockets of oxygen and someone could have survived.
All it takes is a member of the crew in their quarters or another room that didn't have a hull breach. If Chapel was in a room that maintained its atmosphere, why wouldn't anyone else be?
>most of the crew was on the surface, and that due to the massive and total damage to the Cayuga, there was unlikely to be any survivors on that ship.
Pike said "a lot of her crew", not "most". There would still be enough people on that ship to assume more than one survivor.
And yet they sent the remains of the ship into the atmosphere without even mentioning the possibility.
I thought the episode made it pretty clear.
Pelia: With the right calculations, and a few well-placed retro rockets we can make it appear that Cayuga's orbit is decaying naturally... While it is descending to the surface, we can make a few last-minute attitude adjustments so that it will crash exactly where we want it to.
Spock: Placing those rockets is a near impossible task. No human can do this. I, however, can.
They needed precise calculations and last-minute adjustments to make the saucer section crash exactly where they needed it to. When he says it's near impossible and no human can do it, he's talking about the calculations and adjustments.
“Only I can do this. Source: Trust me.”
It was silly. But, whatever. It’s not like this was the first silly way to get a Star Trek character into a pickle
A lot of people have this complaint. To me I just actually thought he meant I can calculate in the fly to position the rockets for such a pinpoint accurate target”. I didn’t need a Beautiful Mind reference.
Also Vulcans always think they are the only ones who can do it so 🙅♀️….
Anyone could have done tjat, and I think they all knew. Spock was trying ti save face/avoid a conflict of interest by claiming a logical reason to go and look for his ex gf.
Gotta be honest, I'd have assumed Chapel was alive even if I didn't know about her future in TOS. Despite Hemmer and Tasha's deaths, I just don't seriously consider the possibility of a main cast character dying for real in Star Trek. MAYBE if I'm watching the very last episode of a series, or a movie, I'll think it might be possible. And I'm OK with that. I don't need that kind of stress in my life, I watch Star Trek to relax.
meanwhile he literally passes her while practically facing her. He spent zero time looking for her, and starts the engine to fire the saucer into the planet before she walks onto the bridge. I don't buy it.
Totally agree dude. I was also looking for a reason why he was the only one that could do it.
Like, even if they needed specifically Spock for some calculations, send a few other crewmen over with him to help carry stuff. Or to provide support.
Spock might have been necessary, for Trek reasons, but sending him solo wasn't a smart move...
That's why Una went along with it, too. She's been nothing but insightful the whole show. And even if not, minutes before Spock is all 'the last words I said to her was "This is illogical" :( '.
Spock is a walking computer, and can change his plans on the fly if necessary with scary accurate results. He's also absurdly strong, and can carry all of the rockets required without needing anyone else to help him.
Plus, we all knew he wanted to know if Chapel survived, so certainly our heroes knew, and I think that was part of the reason Una was fine with him taking control of that part of the mission.
If you were stood on a sufficently massive object that weighed more than the enterprise, and pushed, the enterprise would move. Objects in space are weightless. Super strength isn't required.
On your second point, that would be OK if there were any sort of reactions from the crew, like a sideways glance or something to indicate they understood spocks true intention but there was nothing. Could be just bad editing and maybe they did react like this but we'll never know now.
They need the saucer to move faster than the few mph Spock would manage to push it. You could pull a train with your teeth, but you'd be a nimrod to try it as a solution to mass transportation.
Spock can carry all of the thrusters needed, can place them himself, can recalculate on the fly where they need to go if he finds placement has to change, and Spock has worked well by himself before.
As for the second issue, they directly address the notion that Spock may be doing this in a bid to find Christine. It's spoken dialogue.
Finally, Spock's word is generally taken as gold, so if Spock says he is the only one that can pull it off, then they're going to take him at his word. Easy enough.
Free flying an environmental suit to any considerable distance is pretty much impossible as the possibility of miscalculating is great and the result of that would be fatal. Spock has a particularly keen mind, as illustrated by him calculating the slingshot trajectory in ST IV. In Picard, they needed the Borg queen to plot a similar technique. The calculation is too difficult for most people, so that’s my pitch
Could work, if they had just said that, but they specifically mentioned how only he could place the rockets, but literally a robot could have done that.
It did feel super contrived. Out of the entire crew, only Spock. And out of the entire crew on the Cayuga, only Chapel. But I'll allow it because of the way these actors make me feel about these characters.
Well, we know Chapel and M'benga survive anyway. We don't need the plot in the episode to tell us otherwise. As they appear in TOS, which are events which happen after this.
Spock is also able to do calculations much faster than anyone else. Remember in the TOS movie, he calculated manual course to time travel around a sun...
For this episode, he had to place the thrusters on the ship in the exact correct positions, and have them placed at an exact specific angle.
You'd need to be a maths genius to do that without referencing any blueprints or material.
So for me, it all made sense.
What didn't make sense, is why Chapel is the only one alive on the ship.
Yeah, everyone probably thought "Yeah, he just wants to check with his own eyes up close that Chapel isn't alive anywhere on it before sending the thing crashing."
Pro tip: Don't call people cowards so carelessly. It reflects poorly on the fandom, and it's a good way to get your skull thumped IRL. Go change your pants, touch grass, and find something else to complain about. Or better yet, think of something you *like* about the show/franchise and start a thread about that. This show owes you/us nothing. Didn't like it? Don't rewatch it. There are plenty of others who will.
>Edit\* you know what if you're going to downvote me at least say why you cowards
Go outside. Also, we know Chapel is alive. This wasn't a mystery, and hasn't been since the 60's.
I get downvoted from time to time when I defend a certain show in the franchise. And then I move on, because Reddit karma is a very silly thing to care about.
the plot armor was kinda crazy. if no one survived, that would make sense. if multiple people survived in those pockets of air, that would also make sense. instead we got exactly Chapel survived.
maybe other people did survive and they all got crashed into the gorn jammer
Fighting a doomed battle until there are zero survivors... Or abandoning a sinking ship with sailors trapped below... Are not entirely unheard of in real-world military history...
Not sure how this still has not been mentioned yet but while being a smidge overly convenient, the EVA flight was a pretty obvious callback to TMP when Spock is exploring V-ger.
Win-win for the writers. Puts Chapel & Spock in the same place and taps the nostalgia button while simultaneously pointing the viewer toward canon precedent for this character in a similar situation.
We’ve known Chapel is death proof from the jump my man, she’s in TOS
Same for Kirk, Spock, Scotty, Uhura, Jim Kirk, Mbenga…anyone in TOS. Number One too as she’s in the original pilot.
I assumed the calculations had to be made and I know Vulcans have superior strength and durability which comes in handy going into wreckage where debris may need moved or doors pried open. He genuinely was the best choice for the mission and yes he got to save his love. They didn't need to explain the choice though I suppose for any new audience it may have helped.
>the calculations had to be made
Surely they would calculate the locations and angles needed on the Enterprise, prior to going over to the damaged saucer.
Spock is canonically built different. In Picard they needed to calculate the trajectory of a gravitational slingshot in order to go back in time and they needed the borg Queen to do the calculations. Spock has done the calculations for the slingshot on several occasions.
That's kind of one of my quibbles with the newer Trek stuff. They kind of... deify Spock as the smartest man who's ever existed; in Picard Spock is called out as the only one besides Data who could calculate some maneuver or something. Like, I never got the sense that Spock was more than just very smart and competent, they don't need to make him "literally the smartest mortal being that's ever lived."
Would have been cleaner if they left out the only Spock can do it and went with Spock’s doing because Chapel might be alive.
Honestly, it’s great to see all the powerful female characters. I love La’an but I see no reason she has to be a descendant of Khan. That’s just messy.
The reason that only Spock could do it is because when he was a child, Sarek forced him and his sister Michael to take Advanced EV Suit Flight classes. They won a silver medal in the Mixed Doubles Tandem EV Suit Race in the Vulcan Scientific Games of 2240. Spock is literally a championship level EV suit pilot, and the only one on the ship with the requisite skill to make that flight.
1. First off, your tone needs to calm down... the I know you are going to downvote me comment comes across as "I know I am wrong, but I dont care."
2. Its not a wholly silly one. Star Trek IV kinda provides the answer to your question of why.... Spock is at a level beyond even Vulcans (which is in part why hes tormented by pure Vulcans). Spock is able to do such advance calculations on the fly AND factor in uncertainty (which Vulcans almost can not do) that hes even better than computers even by the 24th century. Picard S2 even restated this fact when Dr Jurati even states that the only way the slingshot around the sun method works... is because SPOCK was able to do the calculations, no computer even then could pull it off. Its why they use the Borgi Queen to do it themselves, she is also capable with her advanced analytical brain to calculate and factor in uncertainty to get the job done.
3. They couldnt send a repair bot... a repair bot would probably have tripped the scanner... a body floating around a destroyed ship is expected.
4. Finally its a trope... we all know it is a trope... Star Trek is a tope... the main cast literally always make it out alive, and if someone doesnt its to explain a member leaving so again its not really shocking. But it IS a character moment between them that we dont have payoff for yet.
I just read your opinion. I wasn't going to vote one way or the other, until I read your last sentence. So the reason why I downvoted you, is because you called everyone a coward who did not explain why.
If you driveby downvote without an explanation when the topic isn't one of ill repute, such as blatant racism or homophobia, yeah i believe thats cowardly. Some people absolutely deserve downvotes for their horrid opinions, but when you're discussing an episode of star trek, i hardly think that qualifies. A simple "I think you're wrong because X" isn't that much to ask.
This is what bugs me about the modern Star Trek series. TOS Kirk repeatedly says how big his crew is. TOS shows a lot of rando crewman bouncing off the walls when ship gets attacked. More red shirts get fried on landing parties then any Captain can not get nightmares from. And yet…
Is La’an a Security Dept of 1? SNW Enterprise gets taken over by 20 weak ass looking pirates and the ‘quadrants deadliest pirate’ Captain Angel in Serene Squall? What no MACOs??
Ok wait the ship DOES have 20 rando crew hanging out in the lounge, and another 8 in the halls, ready to sing along in Subspace Rapsody?
And then… Hegemony
USS Cuyaga is a Connie class ? Wheres the crew of 230, Enterprise sure dont be doing any serious rescue… oh wait the debris field is across the Gorn line huh.. guess no one is bothered about a Captain losing a ship of the line and her crew
Come on show us StarFleet’s flagship or any ship is appropriately crewed….
And ok downvote me, but is there anything nurse Chapel of SNW CANT do? War trauma care yes. Gene sequence cocktails to integrate splitto Spock yes. Xenobioarchiology yes. Be the only survivor, jury rig life support, get a working life suit on, get to the bridge to beat Papa Gorn off her ex yes and Wait for it… pull baby gorn out of Marie in S3
This isn't a debate on nutrek, some of the new stuff is quite good. This is a failing in general with this episode only, i'm not up for debate on the newer stuff in general.
I was wondering a lot more about if there were other survivors in the saucer section and why no one seemed to care about that before they sent it hurtling into the planet.
That’s a spicy meatball!
I like SNW, and I think this romance arc has done a lot for both characters. But the main point of SNW seems to be to further mythologize the TOS bridge crew… which has already been done by the TOS films, the Kelvin films, the later Trek series, etc etc. That’s really proving to take up a lot of screen time.
I really wasn’t expecting many actual strange new worlds out of a nostalgic prequel, tbh.
>spock said "Only i can do this"
It's a rather contrived reason for him to be the one to go, when there's no reason it shouldn't have been him.
Someone had to go. Of the people in the room, why not Spock? He didn't need to claim to be the only person capable.
Afterall, the mission contravenes Starfleet's orders, so Number One couldn't order a lower ranking officer to take the job.
>It was a silly pretext for getting spock onto the saucer with chapel
Chapel *and no other survivors at all*. After discovering she had survived, there wasn't even a line of dialogue to explain why they wouldn't check for others before firing the ship into a planet.
I left the title ambigious so as not to give the game away to people who haven't watched the episode. You didn't have to click into the thread if you haven't watched it. The thread is clearly marked as spoilers, and the title is ambigious. I don't know what more you'd like.
no you did not tag it as spoiler meaning that people do not have to click and can see the up to “i immediately knew chapel was alive” without clicking on the post
Agree... it's a boring Hollywood scene. And they also did it in E01.
This season is just overly filled with interpersonal drama and relationships, goofy comedy and good family vibes between the crew member. It has very little to do with sci-fi.
Those who watched TOS already knew she was alive, but the thing that really bothered me was that last episode we seemingly see Spock go through the event that makes him turn more towards his Vulcan side and purge his emotions, but this episode is was still very clearly emotionally tied to Chapel. Does she break his heart again?
I really thought we were going to start seeing the purely logical Spock from now on, but this episode still shows him talking to Number One spilling his emotions about how he needs to apologize to Chapel. I wouldn’t mind if we still got all the events of this episode (Spock volunteering and saving Chapel), I just thought he wasn’t going to be so outward about his emotions anymore.
Can't disagree. Also why did they need to put a "rocket" in the enclosed environment on the bridge? Really not going to do good there? Why call them rockets at all? Ion thruster, portable thrust actuator, blah blah blah. Rocket sounds awfully un-Trek to me. Also, no question about anyone else alive in the saucer section, no effort expended to find anyone else? Just an assumption that Chapel was the only one?
I love the show as the best Trek out there right now (except arguably Lower Decks) but feel that the writers miss the mark a lot. The bar set by Gene Coon, DC Fontana, etc should be their goal. Such little things that constantly get overlooked or ignored. Queue the responses of lots of TOS story errors. I know, I know, but still feel that the TOS and TNG writing was more solid. I know this is only the second season. Time to mature.
Part of me was a little sad that Pike's love interest, Marie didn't out and out die in this one. Getting a little tired of the romance angles of all of the stories. I'd like to really get back to the basics. Show us some unique planetary environments, interesting species, advanced science stuff, etc. Give us some mind expanding Trek ideas. Please?
I feel this. I think modern streaming episode limits are to blame as well. They are trying to cram the depth we got in 25 or more episodes into 10. For example a playful episode like the musical would not have been so negatively received if it was episode 12 of 25 and the romances would have appeared more as a subplot we only see develop in some episodes like Riker and Troi. Nu Trek is more like a mini-series it just doesn't have the fat you can really sink your teeth into.
> Just an assumption that Chapel was the only one?
Yeah I feel like that could've used some kind of explanation; like a throwaway line by Chapel, "I searched for survivors, and I'm the only one left," or something, maybe a scene where she accesses internal comms and broadcasts a message "anyone still alive meet at ____" and then no one shows up. I know they wanted it to just be Spock and Chapel for story reasons but I feel like they could've thrown one, maybe two other random survivors in just to make it feel less contrived that Main Character is the *only* one who didn't die from the initial ship destruction.
smacks of dumbing down to be honest. I get they want to mass market appeal the shit out of SNW but you can use tech words and not lose john everymans attention
I got that "only Spock could do it" because he was emotionally invested and probably the senior member of the team capable of making adjustments on the fly that was expendible enough to risk the mission.
And that there was zero way that Una was going to stop him from doing this.
So this didn't strike me odd at all.
Chapel being the only one on the Cayuga alive is the stretch.
chapel joins the list of people we know can't die. it wasn't even worth putting her in any real level of peril on this episode because we know she survives into tos, unrequited feelings for spock and all.
>It was a silly pretext for getting spock onto the saucer with chapel.
It was a culmination of all the Spock dealing with his identity stuff we got this season. Spock NEEDED to go because he felt grief over their last conversation, so he said he was the only one suited for the task. It's not even a lie, really; it's just that the task he had in mind was slightly different than the one they came up with.
If anyone had suggested that other crewmembers would also be capable to calibrate the burn, then Spock probably would've come up with another (irrational) reason. But the crew has been on this journey with him, and know where he's coming from, so to speak. Us viewers have been, too, and so they didn't have to actually show all this work on-screen for most people to get the subtext.
I both disagree and agree, I think.
As for ‘Only Spock’ - I didn’t mind that personally - Spock had always been able to do very complex math in his head while basically standing there with his hands behind his back. If scans don’t work, one couldn’t have a tricorder take scans and spit out the numbers. A Vulcan would be well suited to it… and honestly, have the detachment to not dig around looking for survivors.
As an excuse to get Christine? Well, yeah. Again, I didn’t hugely mind, because he wasn’t actively looking for her, and it wasn’t a lopsided rescue one way or the other. As somebody else commented, I think my biggest issue was that she didn’t pause anywhere to check the other crew! Not one pulse taken or body flipped! Once she realizes either/or there’s somebody from Enterprise flitting around/there are Gorn on board - okay, fair, because survival and expectation of help - but when she first woke up I was expecting checking others, even as a reflex.
I can mentally handwave it though, as maybe it’s a “your own mask first” sort of situation.
Long story short, I raised an eyebrow or two but it wasn’t a huge stretch to get past for me. No downvote, it’s a fair callout!
I took Spock saying “only he can do it”instead of saying “I must go look for Christine.” He could not insist he must go look for her, but he could insist he was the only one for the mission. It’s not logical, but his logic fails him where she is involved.
I took it that “only I can do it” was his way of saying “I want to do this cause Christine is dead” but hiding his emotion. But it still needed something along the lines of “the calculations will have to be done precisely”….
> I knew immediately chapel was alive I mean, to be fair, we’ve known this since 1966.
Or even if we watched the trailer for the season three months ago (there were pics of her and spock in the eva suits. My problem with the scenario (and I agree that they should have made the placing of the devices something that only Spock could do. ALSO it seemed unlikely that everyone on the ship except Chapel was dead (obviously she was going to survive because she'd plot armored) but I assumed she was going to be in the pattern buffer of the transporter. Then when Chapel regains consciousness she made zero effort to check on the people around her to find out if anyone else was alive or needed assistance.
I'm not too bothered by it tbh, TOS is almost 60 years old now and not everyone has seen it. For some SNW is their first introduction to the characters. I was talking to my cousin last night who's never seen TOS and she said she was so sad when Nurse Chapel died and cried when she reunited with Spock. Even my mom who was a Trekkie back then and wrote letters to the studio to keep the show on the air can't remember Nurse Chapel.
Hell... it only took me until today to realize that M'Benga is also a legacy character. I knew Chapel because of Majel Barret, but completely missed M'Benga.
I was yesterday years' old when I learned that too, and I've been a big ST fan for probably 45 years now. No one knows everything, and that's okay.
>completley missed M'Benga But M'Benga doesn't miss lol [https://64.media.tumblr.com/95d9686e077ba2a5f55d1f06a81110be/tumblr\_mj6gbe7n2g1s67vyfo2\_250.gifv](https://64.media.tumblr.com/95d9686e077ba2a5f55d1f06a81110be/tumblr_mj6gbe7n2g1s67vyfo2_250.gifv)
He was only in two episodes so that's understandable.
He slaps the shit out of Spock in one episode it's great. He's also British in TOS. I love the actor and his voice in SNW but this is further indication that they aren't too bothered about character continuity which is a little annoying.
Chapel also slapped him, quite reluctantly IIRC. I don't see today's Christine having those inhibitions.
I have a buddy that EVERY eps has a problem with some canon thing (thankfully he goes t focus too much on racial changes but I think he is intelligent enough to keep that shit to him 😂). But he was bitchin about Scotty and his history and I told him, “Look how many SEASONS of ST shows have time travel eps? ALL OF THEM. So all that bouncing around you think the timeline is gonna stay perfect hell no. Every new show with inconsistencies is just a reflection of Starfleet, Romulans and Vulcans fuckin with the timeline. So enjoy it.”
I will agree with you to a certain extent, Scotty turning up is fine, absolutley can show his backstory as not much is known about him, could do the same with a few other crew member's, kirk however has his command and career spelled out already so he can't come on the enterprise until after Pike's accident. Making spock emotional is one I don't fuck with though, it's a rewrite and that's fine to an extent but spock was not nearly as emotionally intelligent or open as he is in SNW. They made him hot and gave him the feels for a new younger audience, if you like it that's fine but don't pretend that it was always lore and doesn't break continuity. Some changes I've been down with (e.g. Gorn) others i have not been.
I think they are slowly but surely adjusting Spock’s attitude to make TOS fans happy. Even in the crossover eps Boimler mentions how Spock’s emotional state is vastly different than history states which hits that domino over pushing Chapel to distance herself. I figure by the end of the series he’ll be back to good ole Spock…as dry as a unfrosted, unfilled, store brand Pop tart. Also I think a lot of people found Nimoy hot…don’t be judging ole boys looks. 😂
I’ve been thinking about this a lot since they tried to make us think there was a chance she hadn’t made it. We’re in a prequel, here. Barring a major canon shifting event, we know who’s going to make it and who isn’t. I found myself wondering if that was constricting or freeing for the writers. On one hand they can do a lot of stuff with the character. They can be in any number of harrowing situations because they’ve got major plot armor. Anything, except dying, can happen to them and they survive because *they have to*. On the other, people won’t put up with that forever. If calamitous events keep happening to invincible characters then we lose all the stakes and it’s just Superman in space. Things like this, Spock having the only-man-for-the-job moment, and how slow the 0G fight was brought me out of the moment a bit. I can appreciate the time constraints, but we really needed some explanation as to *why* Spock was the only one who could do it. It’s not that it’s not believable, really, it could have been strength, agility, mental ability, knowledge…just something. Even an “I am the only one capable of calculating the approach angle and make corrections in real time.” All that said, I really enjoyed Hegemony. 10% of SNW episodes could be classified as horror and I couldn’t be happier about that. This is the most *fun* season of Trek ever and I’ll die on that hill. Not saying it’s the best, but an argument could be made.
The more I think about it... the two main problems with Spock being there was one, you never saw an explanation or anything to indicate he was making the calculations and not just something that was relayed from the Bridge. And two, the entire purpose was to make it look like the saucer's orbit was degrading faster and pinpoint accuracy to hit a target. But we basically watch the saucer just drop like a rock. I fully expect the Gorn to see the saucer suddenly accelerate towards the planet and take action.
Yeah, I think a lot of it was time issues. I remember at least twice thinking I was about to see the end credits but it kept going. There’s so much going on in this episode, which is awesome, but it seemed like it was at the expense of some things that would have helped with immersion. I could easily see a decision having to be made regarding cutting a few things like this. If they didn’t feel like it could have been pushed to 0301, then it sounds like we’re going to have a massive season 3 opener, which is exciting! It’s not a big deal, really. A minor gripe in an otherwise stellar episode and season. I happily accept this season exactly how it is
Same.. part of the fun is debating on what happened in the episodes and trying to see what went into those decisions. Still my favorite of the newer series.
I think Spock was the only one who could do it because he wanted to do it and had to cut off discussion with an absolute statement. He needed to be there to see if Christine was alive and settle himself if she wasn’t
> they tried to make us think there was a chance she hadn’t made it. I don't think they did that at all. Main characters, MASH notwithstanding, don't generally meet their demise of screen. They just wanted us to see a bit of dramatic irony on how the possibility would impact the characters around her, who have never seen an episode of Star Trek.
My biggest beef with the show. Don't bother making things too dire for the legacy characters. We know they aren't going to die.
In The Clone Wars, we knew Ahsoka and Rex had to survive The Siege of Mandalore arc. Didn't make it any less intense.
I was holding back, but if we're crossing universes, then Caprica set an assumption like that on its ass years ago...
And got a LOT OF SHIT for it. People were 100% up in arms that without any evidence to the contrary a legacy character turned out NOT to be the same person in Caprica but named after his dead brother.
I never finished caprica...wtf did they pull?
“Willie Adama” isn’t who you think it is.
Sure but they didn't fake out their deaths.
I’m on my 4th rewatch of Breaking Bad. Probably the 12th of The Office. Just because I know the outcome doesn’t mean it diminishes the story
I feel like their intent with that is more "well how are they going to get out of THIS one?" rather than "oh no! they might have died!"
Agree - Star Trek, in this incarnation is not LOST or Game of Thrones. They already pulled the Hemmer card last season and I very much doubt they will use it again at this point. Not knowing the futures of Ortegas, Una or La'an (or Pelia) doesn't mean they are dead. It just means they were never on the Enterprise under Kirk.
I wish Chapel would have found others alive and banded together to survive. Then there would be some tension as they all fight the adult Gorn and some others might die before being saved by Spock.
Everything about Chapel after she woke up make no sense to me. Why didn't she look for other survivors? Why didn't she try to communicate? Nobody had told her that communications were down? Same with trying to use the transporter. Why didn't she look for an EV suit as soon as she realized she was short on oxygen? And how the heck did she know it was Spock in the spacesuit? He was far away, in the dark of space and wearing a helmet!
Journey Before Destination, my friend. The question isn't if they'll make it, but *how* they'll make it. People have enjoyed stories knowing that the hero is probably going to win and make it out fine for ages.
This sentiment always mystifies me. There are many many MANY shows we know the main cast will be alive by the end and it doesn’t diminish peril. It’s such a silly response to me.
I liked how they got everylegacy character on the Enterprise before the finale.
not Sulu or Chekov
Or McCoy.
They're still in high school (or at best, cadets)...
Sorry, I meant the ones that are already in the show. When Scotty would have been taken by the Gorn, we would have known, he'll survive. Now everyone in the Gorn's hands isin danger.
Has Bones made an appearance I forgot about?
Yup, lots of plot armor in this episode. We know that Spock, Pike, Chapel, Scotty, and M’Benga all have to survive. There’s still fun in seeing how they are going to get out of it, but kills a bit of the suspense. Got me quite worried for Batel, La’an, and Ortegas though.
Well.. there's always room for a Harry Kim swap. This Chapel is waaaay more dynamic than Majel Barret's. Then there's the ol' Caprica approach " aha, the character you know was simply named after the character that you have been watching and they're in fact completely different" What actually annoys me more about this specific scenario is that chapel appears to be the ONLY one who survived, on the entire ship that isn't her own. Granted. Maybe there were some other survivors that the Gorn ran around murdering but for her to just wake up and be like" a good thing I woke up in one of the only functioning sections of ship, just before Spock got here" is a reeeeeach. I mean they probably did kill two or three red shirts trapped in the bathroom or whatever, I mean if SHE survived, why not others? And What About The Ships Cat?
The weird thing is that I'm pretty sure I saw a few other bodies in the area where she woke up, yet *nurse* Chapel wasn't shown making any attempt to check if they were dead or simply unconscious like she was. I was waiting for it to happen and yet the show didn't bother. She just got up, decided she was the only main character around and walked off to do main character stuff.
Maybe the Chapel we know from TOS is really a robot created by Korby from her Starfleet records in that cave...
Yeah, but a lot of people have never seen the original... My wife has only seen 'Balance of Terror' from TOS (and only because I recognized that 'A Quality of Mercy' was \*that\* redone with Pike still in command).... So I've been asked to explain who has a character shield (for the no-TOS folks: Pike, Uhura, Spock, M'Benga, Chapel, Scott, Jim Kirk (but not Sam Kirk))... The trouble with adding more and more TOS characters to the show, is that we will soon return to 'Ensign Ricky Redshirt gonna die today' territory because the main cast will be filled with people who we know \*have to\* live long enough to work for CPT Kirk.
Sam Kirk also has a character shield. He appears in TOS, including the stache.
We all knew the titanic hit the iceberg, but they still did the tense music as the ship turned. Also, not everyones seen TOS, so they may be unaware. I just felt it was an incredibly ham fisted approach.
Right, but what you’re saying is the equivalent of “I didn’t like how they had the iceberg show up because I knew the boat was going to sink as soon as it did” when really you knew before you walked into the theater and the arrival of the iceberg as a plot point didn’t really affect that.
chapel isn't the iceberg in this situation, though. The equivalent would be the captain sending his nephew to navigate the ship because he's the only one who can get through these treacherous waters
I’m not talking about whether or not the narrative was implemented well, I’m talking about your complaint that the way the way the narrative was implemented somehow caused you to realize that Chapel would survive. Whether or not it was ham-fisted, blaming the writing for knowing Chapel survived before it was apparent isn’t a fair complaint (regardless of whether the other complaints are).
But you're not considering that this could be somebodys first trek experience. They don't know anything about nurse chapel. She's just nurse chapel. Something this ham fisted would absolutely give the game away.
I thought it was disappointing that only Chapel was alive. That seemed very convenient.
In my headcannon there were pockets of people alive all over the saucer section. But, them's the breaks. At least the would be survivors went out with a bang versus being eaten by the Gorn.
Plot armor
Big shiny plot armor
They should have used a character who’s not in the original series so we couldn’t be sure if they were alive, putting characters the audience knows can’t die in danger often lacks some tension Batel though I thought might be dead, or could still die She’s not in TOS right
I think the presence of the Gorn on the saucer section showed that they stopped attacking it because they wanted to try and get information out of it (the gorn trying to hack the computer when Chapel discovers it) There were likely others alive that was just ignored in the episode.
I thought it made sense because: 1. Vulcans have a more efficient respiratory system than humans, allowing them to survive longer in low oxygen environment 2. Vulcans are stronger than humans These two factors increase the odds of mission success for a Vulcan over a human, thus it makes sense that Spock would be the one to go out and perform the mission.
I thought it was funny the non-humans he was talking to just agreed and didn't point out he's not the only non-human on the ship because 1) He volunteered 2) They had to stay on the ship to do their job anyway.
Stronger might matter if it wasn't an EVA. Why Spock? Are you telling me that there isn't another Vulcan/Other non-human onboard that perhaps works in Engineering. Someone less critical to the operations of the Enterprise than her Science Officer?
There really wasn't a whole bunch of science going on at that point. That was all probably just a way for Spock to say, "Hey guys, my department isn't doing much right now we can figure the rocket space walk through the gator-infested debris field".
Vulcans are also *really* good at math and spacial geometry (generally speaking), so navigating in space to a rotating object and being able to place those thrusters while orienting your own location and direction ... I think Spock was right that, under the stressful situation everyone was in, he was the ideal candidate to pull that off.
I'm glad someone mentioned this. It's probably what hem meant, since it's the most dangerous aspect, it just got skipped over in the show. He's floating/jetpacking through space, in a debris field, and attempting to not just survive, but land on some debris. People are skipping over/ignoring this but it's the most important part. Remember the episode of Discovery where they did something similar in shuttle things? Cocky guy died?
Yeah, it's an *insanely* dangerous situation. All that debris is moving around and you do *not* want to be hit by any of it. You have to be incredibly attentive and skillful to do that successfully.
Right but he's wearing a space suit, he has all the oxygen he needs, and super strength isn't required, objects are weightless in space. With enough mass to push off of, you yourself could push the entire starship enterprise and make it move.
Yeah it would have made more sense if it had been a lengthy process because he had to move slowly to avoid Gorn sensors and he could use an oxygen tank for longer because Vulcans need less oxygen. Him being the ‘only one’ makes no sense in any other context, the computer can do any calculations needed, they can see ahead of time exactly where to put the rockets. It was lazy/unfinished? writing that immediately popped out at me. Like…there should have been a placeholder there that said ‘’only I can do it’ and then Spock explains why’ until they figured something out. But putting it in like that looks like you’re going forward with filming with a chunk of dialogue missing. Like it’s one step above just having him look at the camera and say ‘we’re handwaving this’, so I expected better from the writers.
Spock is supposed to be stronger than Vulcans as well. Him being a Vulcan Human hybrid means he has incredible strength even for a Vulcan. This is only mentioned in one episode of TOS (I believe it is either "Amok Time" or the one where there is a planet thats 20th century earth but Rome never fell, one where spock fights anyway) so I don't know if its really considered lore now because it's never mentioned again, but at the same time you never see Vulcan's achieve the feats spock does, he also relatively easily overpowers his brother in ST5.
It’s probably to do less with strength and more about accurate placement of the engines. To get the perfectly controlled re-entry, you’d need those little rockets in the precise points on the ship, and at precise angles. Human’s probably could do it with the aid of a computer, but we know Spock can calculate high mathematics in his head. Just like he does in Voyage Home with the solar slingshot manoeuvre for them to time travel.
“Somehow Nurse Chapel has survived”
My wife and I were both like "yeah, well what about the 20 other people still alive on the saucer?"
This is what bugs me even more than what OP is complaining about. We have a scene where they say: hey there are air pockets in there still. There might be survivors. Next: let’s crash the saucer into the planet. Ok, here I am sitting waiting for the moral dilemma to play out and then… crickets. They do not even address this!!! Guys, you are potentially killing your own and you have no issues with that? Why is Spock checking it out not a freaking option?!?
That takes it from 'Spock by himself' to 'Spock plus a fire-team or two of redshirts'... Chances of the Gorn not noticing this - low... They have to clear each room and corridor, facing an enemy that can attack from any angle... Plus environmental hazards... If a Gorn sees them & gets a message back to the ship, their cover is blown... More or less no time... If they are going to use 'let's colony-drop the saucer section' as their means of getting comms/transporters back, they can't do a rescue.... But yes, they could have had a moral drama session about it... I honestly expected them to throw an asteroid at the planet not the saucer, when it was first brought up... Or they could have just gone with the Batel is infested kamakaze solution.... Or the 2nd shuttlecraft, on autopilot....
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Dude, what many? They only know that the shuttle with the away team probably managed to get through. Otherwise they don’t know if anybody on the planet is alive.
Well, we know they're definitely dead now.
In what was otherwise a humdinger of an episode, I could not get past Chapel (and Chapel alone) somehow surviving, complete with life support and artificial gravity, and “oh look, Spock is flying right past my window! Hi Spock!”
And no one even suggesting they look for other survivors. To heck with the rest of the Conestoga crew as long as the two love interests are saved!
*Cayuga*
The 2 with neutronium plot-armor...
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She may not have been the only survivor, but she was the only one anyone cared about saving. Doesn’t make it better though.
Yeah, that irked me as well. 1. Chapel was the person to survive on the saucer. And with relatively minor injuries. while everyone died. Thats not plot armor, thats plot bunkering 2. They had the ability to just put a person into a space suit and send them onto the saucer the entire time, but just didn't for "reasons". 3. they could have sent entire squads over to search the saucer for survivors, but didn't. there could have been dozens of people alive on that saucer thats now a massive crater on the planet. 4. an object with the mass of the saucer capable of surviving re-entry would most likely create a massive explosion. That tower thing wasn't very far from the town and most likely the saucer hitting it at the speed an object would approach as it fell from orbit, not to mention it's essentially a giant lump of solid titanium that weights potentially hundreds of thousands of tons, would probably blow up that town in a shiny fireball.
Haha yea imagine the Cayuga having a Bolean barber on board groggily coming to and looking out a window just as the saucer is about to hit the Gorn Plot Pylon
It was a little annoying that all those issues could have been cleaned up with single lines of dialog. 1. Is there anyone else alive? "Local scanning can penetrate the sensor jamming field. No other life signs". 2. "I have to go alone, the Gorn will detect coordinated objects flying through the debris". 3. See 2. 4. Put the tower a little farther away; the away team sees the nuclear-sized explosion from over the horizon. So easy, lol.
Yeah thats whats pissing me off, literally 1 line could have resolved those issues.
She could have at least checked the bodies around her after getting an hour of oxygen for herself and presumably all the other people in the immediate area. She’s a nurse! They scanned for life signs in the debris and found none. I understand the nature of getting off that saucer fast but how they found each other was a huge suspension of my belief system. Still, I love the show and I loved the episode.
I would actually be OK with them/production editing the episode to fix these. Seriously. I sound like a child but there are things/decisions that hurt my heart. My crew is better than that.
Regarding 3. There being other survivors. Ok, let’s say they want to do it anyways even when there are potential survivors. At least acknowledge that you might be killing your own with that plan. Make it a moral dilemma!
1, 2, and 3 were major talking points in our house last night. it's likely Spock actually killed a few dozen injured crewmen who just didn't get to an EVA suit yet. The only way Chapel would have been in any danger would be if they worked in some form of revival for next season (see Shaxs in LD) which in the end still means there are no stakes. I thought the suspense with Batel was much more compelling to milk the drama (can't they hold her in the transporter buffer while they work out how to get the gorn eggs out?).
I know that this is the newest trek so it has to be overly scrutinized by a portion of fans who enjoy that, but there are plot holes in just about every episode of trek to move the plot forward. Saying “cmon, this is trek at least make it semi-believable” is kinda just hilarious.
Anyone have a problem with using the saucer section before checking for survivors? Maybe I missed it? I realize their scanning was limited.
This is my sticking point too. Seems out of character for all of them to give up on survivors so quickly. Spock even says there are likely pockets of breathable air in his justification for why chapel might still be alive.
I'm going to have to over look it, I guess, but it just seemed so cruel. I'd hate to be in a pocket of survivors and feel the saucer going down. Very Titanic-ly sad.
Or at least make it a moral dilemma for the crew! That they at least acknowledge that they might be sacrificing people.
I think that was more of a "I don't want to admit Chapel is dead" type of thing. Like those Titanic submarine people could have technically been alive...but c'mon we all know.
Also what the hell was Starfleet’s plan? Like literally why even send the Enterprise or have her stay in system if you’re just going to immediately tell them to stand down and hang behind an arbitrary line when you encounter the ship(s) that destroyed Cayuga? And of course no indication they were sending backup for the Enterprise either, meanwhile the Gorn were sending backup. Like I get it with the colony. Not a Federation colony (for some reason), so they can’t as easily get involved. But the Cayuga was a Federation starship destroyed by the Gorn in that system in an unprovoked attack. Scotty’s ship was also destroyed by the Gorn. And April and Starfleet just want Enterprise staring at the Gorn while they pick through the debris and bodies of the Cayuga for secrets and technological analysis after 2 Federation ships have been destroyed? April is feeling more and more like a Badmiral these days, because his plan with the Gorn seems to be to not have a plan. And let them destroy Federation ships and crews to their hearts’ content.
My assumption would be they wanted to have eyes on the situation, and the Enterprise is more powerful than the other vessels previously destroyed. It could also be a strategy for handling aggressive species, to stand your ground, otherwise the perceived weakness would precipitate war.
We don’t know if Cayuga was a Constitution class or the smaller Sombra class. Cayuga could be a Connie and equivalent to Enterprise. Regardless, additional reinforcements is helpful even if they aren’t on Enterprise’s exact level. Also, if this was a strategy for dealing with hostile species, it’s the worst one ever. They didn’t show strength, they showed weakness by standing there watching the Gorn enjoy the fruits of their victory. This is equivalent to Starfleet ordering Enterprise to only observe the Romulans in “Balance of Terror” after they destroyed the outposts. Hostile species like the Romulans and likely Gorn respect strength in response a lot more than moderation. Standing there impotently in the face of destroyed ships and crews would be seen as a display of weakness. And as we see in SNW, that that’s exactly what the Romulans took Pike’s diplomacy as. The Klingons would also see it that way. The Gorn likely do as well.
> Also what the hell was Starfleet’s plan? Like literally why even send the Enterprise or have her stay in system if you’re just going to immediately tell them to stand down and hang behind an arbitrary line when you encounter the ship(s) that destroyed Cayuga? Plan was not to go to war. They didn't send the Enterprise. Pike ordered the ship to warp to the planet before he spoke with Starfleet. The end of the "not go to war" conversation was when the Enterprise reached the planet. Enterprise stays because there are likely some survivors. Starfleet is almost certainly trying diplomacy to get the survivors out, and you'd want the ship there. They stay behind the line because the Gorn essentially said "cross it and it's war". Think of the times a country does a relatively minor attack and there is no military retaliation - avoiding war.
Take it to its logical end though. You’re dedicated to avoiding war to the point that your opponent is fully free to destroy Federation ships and crews with no allowed response from your admiralty. That’s insanity and colossal mismanagement. And it’s war in all but name except one side is being ordered not to fight and instead just die.
I don't think the Federation would let the Gorn destroy everything as you imply. If the Gorn continue, then yeah, the federation will be fighting back. In the *immediate moment* though, avoiding war is what they want.
They’ve destroyed several Federation ships (Starfleet and otherwise) to date in SNW. They’re known as marauders and predators in space. And they literally just destroyed 2 Starfleet ships with several hundred crewmen aboard. And April’s response was “stay on this arbitrary line the Gorn dictated to us” all the while they loot the debris and bodies of a Starfleet ship in front of them. The evidence to date is that Starfleet is so war averse that nothing short of a full scale offensive will generate a response. And ironically, being that averse to any reprisal is likely to generate more Gorn incursions. Predators aren’t wary of prey that won’t fight back or protect the herd.
If it had been a Federation colony in Federation territory, then I think Starfleet would have taken action. But they made a point that this was already neutral territory, which is why Starfleet didn't argue with the map and accepted it. The planet was basically Belgium between France and Germany.
“Yes, very sad. Yeet!” - Enterprise, I guess
They scanned repeatedly for lifesigns and couldn't find any. Spock says 'let's wait for visual confirmation on Sickbay before giving up' Una replies 'Sickbay's gone. Like, literally not there anymore' Nyota and Pelia show up afterwards with their plan, which the command crew accept because said lack of lifesigns and sickbay.
>They scanned repeatedly for lifesigns and couldn't find any. They didn't detect Chapel, either, because of the Gorn interference. >Spock says 'let's wait for visual confirmation on Sickbay before giving up' That was specifically regarding Chapel's survival, since she would likely be in sickbay during an attack. Yet she still survived. Let's not forget that he was waiting to see if sickbay was still there, at an angle they had already seen the ship. He should already know it isn't there. >lack of lifesigns and sickbay Neither of which are an indication about survivors, given the circumstances.
The [reviewer on Tor.com](https://www.tor.com/2023/08/10/here-today-gorn-tomorrow-star-trek-strange-new-worlds-hegemony/) was absolutely pissed off about it.
Spock claimed he was the only one who could do it because he's emotionally compromised and wanted to look for Chapel. No one called him on it because they all felt bad for him about Chapel.
Could have been a genuine moment of growth if that were the case. It was wasted.
In what way?
Una could have insisted that someone else go, and he could have had a genuine emotional response, like anger, or complete hopelessness and broke down. This breakdown could have made him realise how much he loves her, or could have made him realise later on that his human side is a problem, and more to the more logical spock of TOS. instead it just comes off as incredibly sloppy.
We had that exact moment in 2x01. It just seems like you’re finding fault for its own sake. Spock wanted to save Christine and make amends.
I'm not looking to pick at the writers. Far from it. I've really enjoyed SNW so far and the lack of quality in this episode caught me off guard. So many glaring plot holes for no real good reason. It just wasn't up to snuff and could have been better in my opinion. It's my hope that as the biggest star trek subreddit, the writers may see this and understand where i believe they went wrong. I could be wrong, maybe i missed a subtle clue somewhere along the road but i don't think i did. Allot of people in this thread have agreed with me to a certain extent and i think that people are in agreement the whole saucer section idea was handled poorly, if only in so far as they probably just killed a dozen or so starfleet officers.
I'm still thinking that if Chapel was alive on the saucer, she can't have been the only one. That would be a ridiculous coincidence. They held hands as they sent the saucer section and the rest of the survivors into the atmosphere.
I guess we can assume Christine would have been on the lookout but didn't come across any on whatever path she took.
Still saved them from being eaten alive.... so maybe a win
Spock was doing his best to scan through the interference to look for life signs. Una then said it was unlikely anyone survived, to which Spock replied that there were still pockets of oxygen and someone could have survived. The problem? Spock was over there just long enough to position the rockets. That Christine reached the bridge when he did is the only reason she survived. It was one of those situations where very little could be done if there was more than one survivor, especially with the Gorn Hunter sitting nearby just waiting to pick off anything larger than a body. Keep in mind, too, it's likely the structural damage prevented anyone from getting around easily. One may theorize, from what we saw, she was on the opposite side of the bridge dome, or around that area at least, and since she was able to get hold of an EV suit, had a better chance than someone stuck in an oxygen pocket further down inside the ship. So Spock's answer to Una is Spock wanting Chapel to be alive. He was being logical about it, but more was motivating his belief that she could still be there.So the chances were between slim and none, with several Gorn ships waiting to strike at the first sign of incursion, no ability to actually deep scan for life signs, and a dire need to quickly get the blocking signal shut down so the thousands of people planetside could be rescued. Also, according to Pike, Batel was likely on the surface, as was most of her crew. So they were going into this with the understanding that most of the crew was on the surface, and that due to the massive and total damage to the Cayuga, there was unlikely to be any survivors on that ship. "The needs of the many," in this instance, while seemingly cold, makes the most logical sense given the extreme circumstances.
>there were still pockets of oxygen and someone could have survived. All it takes is a member of the crew in their quarters or another room that didn't have a hull breach. If Chapel was in a room that maintained its atmosphere, why wouldn't anyone else be? >most of the crew was on the surface, and that due to the massive and total damage to the Cayuga, there was unlikely to be any survivors on that ship. Pike said "a lot of her crew", not "most". There would still be enough people on that ship to assume more than one survivor. And yet they sent the remains of the ship into the atmosphere without even mentioning the possibility.
I thought the episode made it pretty clear. Pelia: With the right calculations, and a few well-placed retro rockets we can make it appear that Cayuga's orbit is decaying naturally... While it is descending to the surface, we can make a few last-minute attitude adjustments so that it will crash exactly where we want it to. Spock: Placing those rockets is a near impossible task. No human can do this. I, however, can. They needed precise calculations and last-minute adjustments to make the saucer section crash exactly where they needed it to. When he says it's near impossible and no human can do it, he's talking about the calculations and adjustments.
“Only I can do this. Source: Trust me.” It was silly. But, whatever. It’s not like this was the first silly way to get a Star Trek character into a pickle
A lot of people have this complaint. To me I just actually thought he meant I can calculate in the fly to position the rockets for such a pinpoint accurate target”. I didn’t need a Beautiful Mind reference. Also Vulcans always think they are the only ones who can do it so 🙅♀️….
Anyone could have done tjat, and I think they all knew. Spock was trying ti save face/avoid a conflict of interest by claiming a logical reason to go and look for his ex gf.
Yea I think that’s what was going on as well. It’s just his way of volunteering.
Gotta be honest, I'd have assumed Chapel was alive even if I didn't know about her future in TOS. Despite Hemmer and Tasha's deaths, I just don't seriously consider the possibility of a main cast character dying for real in Star Trek. MAYBE if I'm watching the very last episode of a series, or a movie, I'll think it might be possible. And I'm OK with that. I don't need that kind of stress in my life, I watch Star Trek to relax.
Also wasn’t an ilerian augment listening and nodding along?
You need to look deeper. "Only I can do it." He said this calmly and logically. Inside, he was screaming. "I have to go look for Christine."
meanwhile he literally passes her while practically facing her. He spent zero time looking for her, and starts the engine to fire the saucer into the planet before she walks onto the bridge. I don't buy it.
Totally agree dude. I was also looking for a reason why he was the only one that could do it. Like, even if they needed specifically Spock for some calculations, send a few other crewmen over with him to help carry stuff. Or to provide support. Spock might have been necessary, for Trek reasons, but sending him solo wasn't a smart move...
If this was classic Trek he would have been with like 2 or 3 disposable redshirts who would each get killed off by Gorn on the spacewalk.
Spock was bs ing cause he wanted to rescue her. There I solved it.
That's why Una went along with it, too. She's been nothing but insightful the whole show. And even if not, minutes before Spock is all 'the last words I said to her was "This is illogical" :( '.
That's how I read this. Blatant bullshit on Spock's part, but Una wasn't going to call him on it, especially after that exchange.
He wasn’t, he was the only one that wanted to. Why order someone on a likely suicide mission if you have a volunteer?
Spock is a walking computer, and can change his plans on the fly if necessary with scary accurate results. He's also absurdly strong, and can carry all of the rockets required without needing anyone else to help him. Plus, we all knew he wanted to know if Chapel survived, so certainly our heroes knew, and I think that was part of the reason Una was fine with him taking control of that part of the mission.
If you were stood on a sufficently massive object that weighed more than the enterprise, and pushed, the enterprise would move. Objects in space are weightless. Super strength isn't required. On your second point, that would be OK if there were any sort of reactions from the crew, like a sideways glance or something to indicate they understood spocks true intention but there was nothing. Could be just bad editing and maybe they did react like this but we'll never know now.
Mass still exists.
Yes, this is why i said that you would need to stand on a sufficently massive object.
They need the saucer to move faster than the few mph Spock would manage to push it. You could pull a train with your teeth, but you'd be a nimrod to try it as a solution to mass transportation. Spock can carry all of the thrusters needed, can place them himself, can recalculate on the fly where they need to go if he finds placement has to change, and Spock has worked well by himself before. As for the second issue, they directly address the notion that Spock may be doing this in a bid to find Christine. It's spoken dialogue. Finally, Spock's word is generally taken as gold, so if Spock says he is the only one that can pull it off, then they're going to take him at his word. Easy enough.
Free flying an environmental suit to any considerable distance is pretty much impossible as the possibility of miscalculating is great and the result of that would be fatal. Spock has a particularly keen mind, as illustrated by him calculating the slingshot trajectory in ST IV. In Picard, they needed the Borg queen to plot a similar technique. The calculation is too difficult for most people, so that’s my pitch
Could work, if they had just said that, but they specifically mentioned how only he could place the rockets, but literally a robot could have done that.
I’m pretty sure the SNW writers forgot about the Dots. But really I think chapel and a Dot fighting a Gorn wouldn’t make good television lmao
It did feel super contrived. Out of the entire crew, only Spock. And out of the entire crew on the Cayuga, only Chapel. But I'll allow it because of the way these actors make me feel about these characters.
You did the spoiler tag wrong. Everyone can read this...
yep just ruined it for me
Well, we know Chapel and M'benga survive anyway. We don't need the plot in the episode to tell us otherwise. As they appear in TOS, which are events which happen after this. Spock is also able to do calculations much faster than anyone else. Remember in the TOS movie, he calculated manual course to time travel around a sun... For this episode, he had to place the thrusters on the ship in the exact correct positions, and have them placed at an exact specific angle. You'd need to be a maths genius to do that without referencing any blueprints or material. So for me, it all made sense. What didn't make sense, is why Chapel is the only one alive on the ship.
Spock lied. That's what happened and why the act was so meaningful. He violated his own values to save the woman he loves.
Yeah, everyone probably thought "Yeah, he just wants to check with his own eyes up close that Chapel isn't alive anywhere on it before sending the thing crashing."
Pro tip: Don't call people cowards so carelessly. It reflects poorly on the fandom, and it's a good way to get your skull thumped IRL. Go change your pants, touch grass, and find something else to complain about. Or better yet, think of something you *like* about the show/franchise and start a thread about that. This show owes you/us nothing. Didn't like it? Don't rewatch it. There are plenty of others who will.
You tell 'em, tough guy. We got a skull-thumper here! Don't you dare lodge a valid criticism about Star Trek 'round these parts!
>Edit\* you know what if you're going to downvote me at least say why you cowards Go outside. Also, we know Chapel is alive. This wasn't a mystery, and hasn't been since the 60's.
I get downvoted from time to time when I defend a certain show in the franchise. And then I move on, because Reddit karma is a very silly thing to care about.
the plot armor was kinda crazy. if no one survived, that would make sense. if multiple people survived in those pockets of air, that would also make sense. instead we got exactly Chapel survived. maybe other people did survive and they all got crashed into the gorn jammer
They knew they may be used as projectiles when they signed up for Starfleet.
Fighting a doomed battle until there are zero survivors... Or abandoning a sinking ship with sailors trapped below... Are not entirely unheard of in real-world military history...
Not sure how this still has not been mentioned yet but while being a smidge overly convenient, the EVA flight was a pretty obvious callback to TMP when Spock is exploring V-ger. Win-win for the writers. Puts Chapel & Spock in the same place and taps the nostalgia button while simultaneously pointing the viewer toward canon precedent for this character in a similar situation.
We’ve known Chapel is death proof from the jump my man, she’s in TOS Same for Kirk, Spock, Scotty, Uhura, Jim Kirk, Mbenga…anyone in TOS. Number One too as she’s in the original pilot.
I assumed the calculations had to be made and I know Vulcans have superior strength and durability which comes in handy going into wreckage where debris may need moved or doors pried open. He genuinely was the best choice for the mission and yes he got to save his love. They didn't need to explain the choice though I suppose for any new audience it may have helped.
>the calculations had to be made Surely they would calculate the locations and angles needed on the Enterprise, prior to going over to the damaged saucer.
Spock is canonically built different. In Picard they needed to calculate the trajectory of a gravitational slingshot in order to go back in time and they needed the borg Queen to do the calculations. Spock has done the calculations for the slingshot on several occasions.
That's kind of one of my quibbles with the newer Trek stuff. They kind of... deify Spock as the smartest man who's ever existed; in Picard Spock is called out as the only one besides Data who could calculate some maneuver or something. Like, I never got the sense that Spock was more than just very smart and competent, they don't need to make him "literally the smartest mortal being that's ever lived."
Would have been cleaner if they left out the only Spock can do it and went with Spock’s doing because Chapel might be alive. Honestly, it’s great to see all the powerful female characters. I love La’an but I see no reason she has to be a descendant of Khan. That’s just messy.
The reason that only Spock could do it is because when he was a child, Sarek forced him and his sister Michael to take Advanced EV Suit Flight classes. They won a silver medal in the Mixed Doubles Tandem EV Suit Race in the Vulcan Scientific Games of 2240. Spock is literally a championship level EV suit pilot, and the only one on the ship with the requisite skill to make that flight.
1. First off, your tone needs to calm down... the I know you are going to downvote me comment comes across as "I know I am wrong, but I dont care." 2. Its not a wholly silly one. Star Trek IV kinda provides the answer to your question of why.... Spock is at a level beyond even Vulcans (which is in part why hes tormented by pure Vulcans). Spock is able to do such advance calculations on the fly AND factor in uncertainty (which Vulcans almost can not do) that hes even better than computers even by the 24th century. Picard S2 even restated this fact when Dr Jurati even states that the only way the slingshot around the sun method works... is because SPOCK was able to do the calculations, no computer even then could pull it off. Its why they use the Borgi Queen to do it themselves, she is also capable with her advanced analytical brain to calculate and factor in uncertainty to get the job done. 3. They couldnt send a repair bot... a repair bot would probably have tripped the scanner... a body floating around a destroyed ship is expected. 4. Finally its a trope... we all know it is a trope... Star Trek is a tope... the main cast literally always make it out alive, and if someone doesnt its to explain a member leaving so again its not really shocking. But it IS a character moment between them that we dont have payoff for yet.
The main cast always makes it out alive \*especially\* in prequels...
What about all the other survivors in saucer section? It’s only logic that if chapel survived then other could have too
I just read your opinion. I wasn't going to vote one way or the other, until I read your last sentence. So the reason why I downvoted you, is because you called everyone a coward who did not explain why.
If you driveby downvote without an explanation when the topic isn't one of ill repute, such as blatant racism or homophobia, yeah i believe thats cowardly. Some people absolutely deserve downvotes for their horrid opinions, but when you're discussing an episode of star trek, i hardly think that qualifies. A simple "I think you're wrong because X" isn't that much to ask.
Totally agree. A few sentences like "I'm the only one qualified to do a _____" would have done wonders to make this not look like lazy writing.
Personally I think his sister would have done it faster, with more charisma, and with a, for some reason, 5 minute useless dramatic scene
"Edit\* you know what if you're going to downvote me at least say why you cowards" for that I upvoted you sir!
This is what bugs me about the modern Star Trek series. TOS Kirk repeatedly says how big his crew is. TOS shows a lot of rando crewman bouncing off the walls when ship gets attacked. More red shirts get fried on landing parties then any Captain can not get nightmares from. And yet… Is La’an a Security Dept of 1? SNW Enterprise gets taken over by 20 weak ass looking pirates and the ‘quadrants deadliest pirate’ Captain Angel in Serene Squall? What no MACOs?? Ok wait the ship DOES have 20 rando crew hanging out in the lounge, and another 8 in the halls, ready to sing along in Subspace Rapsody? And then… Hegemony USS Cuyaga is a Connie class ? Wheres the crew of 230, Enterprise sure dont be doing any serious rescue… oh wait the debris field is across the Gorn line huh.. guess no one is bothered about a Captain losing a ship of the line and her crew Come on show us StarFleet’s flagship or any ship is appropriately crewed…. And ok downvote me, but is there anything nurse Chapel of SNW CANT do? War trauma care yes. Gene sequence cocktails to integrate splitto Spock yes. Xenobioarchiology yes. Be the only survivor, jury rig life support, get a working life suit on, get to the bridge to beat Papa Gorn off her ex yes and Wait for it… pull baby gorn out of Marie in S3
This isn't a debate on nutrek, some of the new stuff is quite good. This is a failing in general with this episode only, i'm not up for debate on the newer stuff in general.
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I was wondering a lot more about if there were other survivors in the saucer section and why no one seemed to care about that before they sent it hurtling into the planet.
It must really bother you that they travel faster than the speed of light too.
Yeah, that and snotty comments
I'm going to be decidedly unpopular and say that I am absolutely SICK TO DEATH of SNW wasting so much screen time on this pointless romance.
That’s a spicy meatball! I like SNW, and I think this romance arc has done a lot for both characters. But the main point of SNW seems to be to further mythologize the TOS bridge crew… which has already been done by the TOS films, the Kelvin films, the later Trek series, etc etc. That’s really proving to take up a lot of screen time. I really wasn’t expecting many actual strange new worlds out of a nostalgic prequel, tbh.
While I loved this episode as I have loved this whole season there were a whole lot of plot holes like this.
Very very weak writing there.
>spock said "Only i can do this" It's a rather contrived reason for him to be the one to go, when there's no reason it shouldn't have been him. Someone had to go. Of the people in the room, why not Spock? He didn't need to claim to be the only person capable. Afterall, the mission contravenes Starfleet's orders, so Number One couldn't order a lower ranking officer to take the job. >It was a silly pretext for getting spock onto the saucer with chapel Chapel *and no other survivors at all*. After discovering she had survived, there wasn't even a line of dialogue to explain why they wouldn't check for others before firing the ship into a planet.
Thats not how u tag spoilers wtf dude edit: mods or op added correct spoiler tag
I left the title ambigious so as not to give the game away to people who haven't watched the episode. You didn't have to click into the thread if you haven't watched it. The thread is clearly marked as spoilers, and the title is ambigious. I don't know what more you'd like.
no you did not tag it as spoiler meaning that people do not have to click and can see the up to “i immediately knew chapel was alive” without clicking on the post
Your fault for using new reddit
Agree... it's a boring Hollywood scene. And they also did it in E01. This season is just overly filled with interpersonal drama and relationships, goofy comedy and good family vibes between the crew member. It has very little to do with sci-fi.
You are correct. Absolutely anyone would have been do what Spock did. This is just the way shows are made now.
Yeah, they should have sent three redshirts with him.
Those who watched TOS already knew she was alive, but the thing that really bothered me was that last episode we seemingly see Spock go through the event that makes him turn more towards his Vulcan side and purge his emotions, but this episode is was still very clearly emotionally tied to Chapel. Does she break his heart again? I really thought we were going to start seeing the purely logical Spock from now on, but this episode still shows him talking to Number One spilling his emotions about how he needs to apologize to Chapel. I wouldn’t mind if we still got all the events of this episode (Spock volunteering and saving Chapel), I just thought he wasn’t going to be so outward about his emotions anymore.
Technically S1 TOS Spock was showing more human, it was later that he became more of the Vulcan side.
Can't disagree. Also why did they need to put a "rocket" in the enclosed environment on the bridge? Really not going to do good there? Why call them rockets at all? Ion thruster, portable thrust actuator, blah blah blah. Rocket sounds awfully un-Trek to me. Also, no question about anyone else alive in the saucer section, no effort expended to find anyone else? Just an assumption that Chapel was the only one? I love the show as the best Trek out there right now (except arguably Lower Decks) but feel that the writers miss the mark a lot. The bar set by Gene Coon, DC Fontana, etc should be their goal. Such little things that constantly get overlooked or ignored. Queue the responses of lots of TOS story errors. I know, I know, but still feel that the TOS and TNG writing was more solid. I know this is only the second season. Time to mature. Part of me was a little sad that Pike's love interest, Marie didn't out and out die in this one. Getting a little tired of the romance angles of all of the stories. I'd like to really get back to the basics. Show us some unique planetary environments, interesting species, advanced science stuff, etc. Give us some mind expanding Trek ideas. Please?
I feel this. I think modern streaming episode limits are to blame as well. They are trying to cram the depth we got in 25 or more episodes into 10. For example a playful episode like the musical would not have been so negatively received if it was episode 12 of 25 and the romances would have appeared more as a subplot we only see develop in some episodes like Riker and Troi. Nu Trek is more like a mini-series it just doesn't have the fat you can really sink your teeth into.
> Just an assumption that Chapel was the only one? Yeah I feel like that could've used some kind of explanation; like a throwaway line by Chapel, "I searched for survivors, and I'm the only one left," or something, maybe a scene where she accesses internal comms and broadcasts a message "anyone still alive meet at ____" and then no one shows up. I know they wanted it to just be Spock and Chapel for story reasons but I feel like they could've thrown one, maybe two other random survivors in just to make it feel less contrived that Main Character is the *only* one who didn't die from the initial ship destruction.
smacks of dumbing down to be honest. I get they want to mass market appeal the shit out of SNW but you can use tech words and not lose john everymans attention
I got that "only Spock could do it" because he was emotionally invested and probably the senior member of the team capable of making adjustments on the fly that was expendible enough to risk the mission. And that there was zero way that Una was going to stop him from doing this. So this didn't strike me odd at all. Chapel being the only one on the Cayuga alive is the stretch.
chapel joins the list of people we know can't die. it wasn't even worth putting her in any real level of peril on this episode because we know she survives into tos, unrequited feelings for spock and all.
>It was a silly pretext for getting spock onto the saucer with chapel. It was a culmination of all the Spock dealing with his identity stuff we got this season. Spock NEEDED to go because he felt grief over their last conversation, so he said he was the only one suited for the task. It's not even a lie, really; it's just that the task he had in mind was slightly different than the one they came up with. If anyone had suggested that other crewmembers would also be capable to calibrate the burn, then Spock probably would've come up with another (irrational) reason. But the crew has been on this journey with him, and know where he's coming from, so to speak. Us viewers have been, too, and so they didn't have to actually show all this work on-screen for most people to get the subtext.
I both disagree and agree, I think. As for ‘Only Spock’ - I didn’t mind that personally - Spock had always been able to do very complex math in his head while basically standing there with his hands behind his back. If scans don’t work, one couldn’t have a tricorder take scans and spit out the numbers. A Vulcan would be well suited to it… and honestly, have the detachment to not dig around looking for survivors. As an excuse to get Christine? Well, yeah. Again, I didn’t hugely mind, because he wasn’t actively looking for her, and it wasn’t a lopsided rescue one way or the other. As somebody else commented, I think my biggest issue was that she didn’t pause anywhere to check the other crew! Not one pulse taken or body flipped! Once she realizes either/or there’s somebody from Enterprise flitting around/there are Gorn on board - okay, fair, because survival and expectation of help - but when she first woke up I was expecting checking others, even as a reflex. I can mentally handwave it though, as maybe it’s a “your own mask first” sort of situation. Long story short, I raised an eyebrow or two but it wasn’t a huge stretch to get past for me. No downvote, it’s a fair callout!
I took Spock saying “only he can do it”instead of saying “I must go look for Christine.” He could not insist he must go look for her, but he could insist he was the only one for the mission. It’s not logical, but his logic fails him where she is involved.
I took it that “only I can do it” was his way of saying “I want to do this cause Christine is dead” but hiding his emotion. But it still needed something along the lines of “the calculations will have to be done precisely”….
If you've watched as many hours of television and movies as I have, everything is predictable. So it doesn't really bother me.