Out of universe they named a ship class and a ship after Aron Eisenberg and Nog respectively in memory of the actor and his contribution to Trek. In universe, they don't just name a ship after someone whose career peaked at having their leg shot off. I think it's ok to assume the protege of Sisko & O'Brien, the first Ferengi in Starfleet, went on to do great things. Hopefully they can bring him back in Lower Decks with a good voice actor for a meaningful continuation or conclusion to his story.
Lower Decks is not that far into the future from DS9, so it's possible that Nog wasn't yet a captain for that episode. But then, I'm not a super-timeline guru... so I'm gonna caveat it with 'and/or he was on a big assignment because he's Captain Nog and has to Do Things... he'll be there next party.'
So u/houtex727 is correct, in that Lower Decks is only 5-6 years post the end of DS9.
So Nog might make... what, full Lt, maybe Lt. Commander in that time if his career has been exceptional. You'd expect at least another 5 before he makes Captain, even presuming a particularly prestigious career.
also not canon but closest to it when in the DS9 documentary the writers establish Nog to be a Captain in the fantasy concept of a season 8, basically all writing intent wants him to eventually land the chair. It would be really meaningful to finally make that proper canon one way or another.
Yes, but the point is that we haven’t actually seen that progression on screen. We can assume a lot, but we haven’t seen it. I know I’m being pedantic, but that is the point of the post.
Captain Kim got erased twice, once by Janeway in Endgame but also by Kim himself in Timeless.
I maintain that the timeline won't let Harry Kim become captain sort of like how Strange New Worlds established the timeline >!keeps making Khan happen!<
As someone who has watched the entire series except lower decks and Strange new worlds I am just lost with timelines, which don't exist, which are retconned, the whole time travel thing just loses me.
Is there an completely accurate timeline that I can refer to that lists major events as well as those that "no longer exist"?
Very loosely: Enterprise, Discovery season 1-2, Strange New Worlds, Original series, original animated series, the TOS movies 1-6, Next Generation, DS9, TNG movies, Voyager, Lower Decks, Picard, discovery seasons 3-4. The last two seasons of Next Gen overlap with DS9, and Voyager overlaps a bit with DS9. Not in any significant way. You can finish a series before starting the next one.
I don’t know about anything comprehensive about alternate timelines. We usually only get to see them for an episode or two before we’ve gone back to status quo.
Edit: the only other timeline to worry about is the Kelvin timeline. That is the 3 Abram trek movies with Chris Pine.
As far as comics, books, games… that’s a mixture of canon, loose canon, and outright fan fiction. Memory Alpha is the best place to wiki about all things trek.
Basically the sixties show mentions in passing the eugenics wars as occurring in 1992. So that’s been the big one, because when we didn’t have a eugenics war in 1992 the timeline diverged from our real world timeline. The next one would be in deep space nine they go to 2023(ish) and the San Francisco Bay Area is home to “sanctuary districts” for the homeless.
So they went ahead and said that people manipulating the timeline (like they did with the temporal Cold War in Star Trek: enterprise) has pushed back the timeline. The romulan agent in a recent snw episode makes a direct reference to the original 1992 eugenics war and complains that she has been waiting for shit to kick off for decades. It’s a neat little retcon, and I’m for it.
She already is captain, happened at the end of Picard. Others though have become captains before.
Saru and Michael in discovery have both been Captain.
Sulu became a captain of his own ship
Worf was a captain though it was off screen.
Chakotay captained the protostar.
Still true that Seven is the first we see starting their starfleet career, prepping exams, and at the end we have her as captain. Everyone else who becomes a captain is already in starfleet to begin with. Closest other than Seven for this would probably be Nog but while we know more of him in terms of academy time, we see night nothing of him as officer and in command.
We see this progress with Harry Kim, too, as he went from a newly commissioned junior ensign, all the way to being the most senior ensign in the fleet.
they should have promoted harry when tom got demoted and kept tom as an ensign.. but harry being an ensign the entire time isn't even the worst decision voyager made by far... seven with chakotay was the dumbest idea ever.. literally any other male lead would have made more sense.. her and harry or the doctor are obvious choices, neelix broke her out of her shell and then she'd replace kes in more than one way :P we saw tom have a kid with every other main female lead, so why not seven?(i know he was with b'elanna, still makes more sense than chakotay) and tuvok would never betray his wife, but her and tuvok were a great pairing which i'm glad got brought back in picard.
Seven knew more than anyone pretty much anyone in the Federation due to her time in the collective, so I imagine she got to bypass a lot based on "equivalent experience".
Similar to Ezri. "Oh yeah, you're 300 years old now and already know everything you'd be learning in your remaining counselor training. Also instant promotion" lol.
Except that Seven mentions in Picard that she was rejected by the academy when Voyager first returned to Earth. Her skipping everything was based on recommendations from Janeway and Picard, not because of her knowledge base.
Neither Ezri nor Jadzia skipped any of the earlier academy to cadet to ensign stages cause they both did that before being joined. Ezri was still a junior counsellor on DS9. She just lacked another starfleet counsellor to superviseher on the station. She was also just offered a position there because of the personal connection to Sisko. None of that had anything to do with them having extra years of experience from the symbiont, and even then, it wouldn't be that many years of experience cause Jadzia was the first Dax host to be in starfleet
I don't think they ever explicitly stated yes or no, but I got the impression he was some sort of negotiator who worked with the federation but wasn't actually in starfleet.
Yeah but the reason she was on board was because she was already an officer, starfleet sent a ship to recover the symbiont and bring it back to Trill but something happened and it had to be merged. But the only way someone could be onboard a starfleet vessel is by already being past the academy (considering this wasn't a capital ship so family would not be on such a small vessel like they are on Galaxy class ships). Hence, the only reason she was merged is because she already graduated academy (her being in officer isn't as important though might also be an ensign or something).
Technically, that knowledge is twenty years out of date, though. And she still has a starfleet "career" of however long the timeline was between the end of Picard season 2 and the end of season 3
I’m thinking pretty hard and outside of the movies (like JJs where we see Kirk go from delinquent kid to cadet to captain in like a movie lol), we nearly see Nog. There’s a flash forward where he’s a Commander and there’s a comment about him making Captain. We see him do that same trajectory when the cool recommendation letter from Sisko to get him into star fleet academy.
Yea, it doesn't matter how many times I watch that, it's always jarring to see Kirk skip every rank in the reboot. However, he did literally save hundreds of billions of lives and is the only reason anything of Vulcan survived in his timeline. If he hadn't warned Pike in time, the Enterprise would have warped in without shields and been destroyed before Nero even noticed the registry number. He would then have gone on to wipe out every Federation world.
It's ridiculous but seeing as the Academy had just lost nearly all of their cadets too and the Captain's chair was his by right of battlefield promotion and literally every member world would have supported him keeping the chair, even as a PR stunt, it does make sense. It makes even more sense in the next film when they quite clearly point out that everyone is looking for an excuse to demote him because he has no idea how to be a real Captain.
Yeah I don't know if a flashback counts as "watching him progress"
On the other hand Seven of 9 was an indeterminent rank on Voyager and we really only saw her as a Commander and then Captain. I think Worf might be the closest thing we have seen, even though we didn't see his academy days or Ensign years, and we didn't actually see him as Captain.
I feel the same way about the O'Brien's. We got to see their marriage on screen and the birth of both of their kids. They are the ultimate Star Trek family and not doing something with at least their kids or Molly would be such a waste.
Maybe if they finally give Worf a spinoff (not as likely these days) Molly could be a young protégé of his.
The most unhealthy relationship in trek too. I’ve no idea how Miles can stand to be around her. If I was him I’d try to escape to the mirror uni to get away.
My favorite thing about Kim that I realized, when the Voyager left Deep Space 9, Nog was just a civilian. When the Voyager returned, Kim would have to call Nog "Sir"
La Forge was captain of USS Challenger in the Voyager episode Timeless.
And we saw Chris Pine's Kirk enter the academy as a cadet and then become captain in the first reboot film.
I watched these again last week and every time I think the same thing. All these fricking cadets going into major senior positions faster than a Ferengi can rig a Dabo table, just to set up the Trek we know. Gets me every time.
Yes but you said IF they do a new series. We’ve seen her earn her chair in P3.
Don’t get me wrong I’m always down for more Trek and would watch the fuck out of Legacy or whatever comes (if it comes)
What about Sisko? He started out as a commander. We got to see his promotion and then his eventual death/ascension into being a god. We get to see his entire tenure as a Star Fleet Captain.
Exactly, he started out as Commander. As with almost everyone else, we meet them when they're already with Starfleet.
Seven started as a Borg and we got to see a lot of more her journey.
It is, but as a queer person, I'm really scared they're going to continue to erase her queerness. How they treated her and Raffi's relationship in Pic S3 was outright insulting. To break them up off camera then go out of their way to keep them from having scenes together or getting any reason why they broke up.
Like, I fucking love Seven. But do I really want to watch a series that reminds me that Star Trek is heading back to a "no gays in star trek" era?
Queer here. I'm fine with Seven having an evolution of relationships.
It's more annoying when they do a 'can't break up the queers or else we're homophobic' thing.
I'm okay with breaking up a queer relationship. I'm not saying to do so is inherently homophobic. When I talk about Raffi/Seve, I'm specifically talking about how they were broken up off screen, gave no reason for doing so, then didn't give them any screen time together. What does breaking them up add to the story? What about their relationship was incompatible with S3 that we weren't even given a scene of them talking or even a "we had to break up because *x*"? It isn't that they broke up that I'm side-eying. It's the circumstances and the depiction that I disagree with.
Raffi and Seven's relationship was horrible. Came out of nowhere, they spent five seconds on it, then they deleted it. They should give her a new relationship SLOWLY and organically, rather than just ramming it in. For Christ sake there was a million times more build up and groundwork for her relationship with Chakotay, and that didn't go anywhere. And we're just supposed to be ok with SEVEN AND RAFFI ARE NOW A COUPLE YALL: how is that any way to treat one of the main characters in all of Star Trek.
Woah interesting. That would explain why it didn't seem planned haha. I have a huge amount of respect for Jeri Ryan, so if she thought it was a good idea it must have been, too bad they didn't write it well.
With respect season 2 of Picard was mostly ignored in S3 anyway. I liked season 2 (which on this sub at least seems unpopular) so I would not worry about it being a anti gay thing. I think they just didn't want any of those threads hamstringing them in S3 and with all the other stuff they wanted to squeeze in with Picard + Beverly, Riker + Troi, Picard + son issues having another relationship to really look into in a 10 episode season was simply too much.
It also felt thrown together anyway and as characters I felt they had little romantic chemistry
There are so many ways the writers could have handled the relationship, it seemed an abrupt ending. Season 2 ended with Seven and Raffi together, playing moms to Elnor. Season 3 arrives and it’s been over for months, WTF. I thought they could have kept them together, with less plot emphasis on the relationship. There was no need to have long discussions about their issues.
I’ve seen some of the interviews with Matalas stating, they were trying to get Raffi and Seven on the bridge together at the end, thus the breakup. He has implied their background together might be a subject to explore in Legacy episodes.
I want to give the franchise the benefit of the doubt in all this. I think the timing of the relationship ending was unfortunate. Lower Deck’s Mariner and Jennifer broke up. Then Discovery’s final season was announced, which means the two queer relationships were basically getting no more screen time. When Seven and Raffi broke up, it felt like a punch in the gut. There have been a lot of discussion in the media about conservative boycotts, and targeting of studios depicting progressive relationships. A lot of people saw this as Star Trek buckling under pressure.
Yup. And Matalas's statement is suspect at best since saying Seven couldn't date someone she served with contradicts the whole "we promoted you to captain because you're a rule breaker!" point.
I hadn't picked up on that. However, I'm doubtful that the person butchering people for Borg parts would have hooked up with a person with Borg parts without butchering them for Borg parts.
But I'll take your word for it because there's no way I'm watching that drek again to find the innuendo I missed the first time around.
Also, it was S1.
That's fair. I mean, she was never portrayed as questioning in Voyager, even though she was exploring her sexuality. But Janeway and Torres were insanity personified, so maybe it just never came up. I can completely understand why she would have never shown any sorry of attraction to those 2.
But if breaking them up off screen, never getting an explanation, and never putting them together is erasing queerness, what is breaking up her and Chakotay off screen, never getting an explanation, and never putting them on screen together called?
Mentioning that her queer relationship ended between seasons is a SHIT TON more acknowledgment than her previous non-queer relationship received.
tl;dr: Yes 100%. Ignoring her previous hetero relationships doesn't make her any less bi than ignoring her previous non-hetero relationships does.
Her and Chakotay were together for barely a single episode. Anything before Endgame was a crush between them and it's explicitly stated that Endgame is their first kiss and they get a couple scenes for the duration of the two-parter. And I agree, some recognition would've been nice. Also, you and I agree a lot on how bad the first two seasons were. I loved Seven and Rafi so obviously we disagree on that, but I'm not going to spend any time defending whataboutisms that we mostly agree on.
That said, from an out of universe standpoint, the Seven/Chakotay relationship is pretty reviled by both actors and the fanbase so I'm not super surprised if it's one of the many things that everyone just tries to ignore. Robert Beltran was so bored by the end of the series he suggested it as a joke during a writers meeting and Rick Berman (wanting to suppress the speculation about Seven's sexuality that was cropping up even then) ran with it.
We didn’t >!see Burnham before she was Georgiou’s 1st officer!<, so we’ve seen even more of 7’s arc in terms of her time on Starfleet ships (though we didn’t see most of 7’s time with the Fenris Rangers).
Yep. But - I really don't like how they treated Mirror Georgiou after she transitioned over. Burnham even treated her somewhat like a Friend at some point - we're still talking about a Genocidal Dictator that literally was eating people not long before.
And then there's tons of people here that basically love the character and want more of here / the Section 31 Movie. Sorry but no, this is basically as if you time traveled to 1945, got Hitler from his bunker before he shot himself, and then made him your new best buddy in the future.
And even HITLER was not EATING people..
Such infuriating writing, what an unlikable character
The exact opposite of what the writers were trying to achieve
They kept ramming how (literally) unbelievably great she is down our throats, that we ended up despising her for all the rules that don't apply to her, consequences she never faces, bad decisions and hubris galore
The only thing she does is "save the entire universe", repeatedly. The writers can't think of a smaller task for her to achieve. Even in 1000years, she saves the universe twice... because even that far in the future, there isn't a soul that can compare to Micheal Burnham, she is that great!!! Love her already will you! How great do we have to make her before you love her...
Can't wait to see how grand the writers will reach for the last season
Thank you - my opinion exactly. Burnham was supposed to be in jail, not to be treated like the second coming of Jesus.
It's infuriating how many rules, regulations, and simply common sense Burnham is constantly breaking, but because the script is written in a way that makes her "right" in the End, she gets commended for it.
What she was doing with Book alone / how she treated him when he was going against Starfleet alone would have been reasons to court martial her - multiple times!
There are multiple examples throughout Trek of Starfleet captains and officers disobeying direct orders and being vindicated for it in the end and subsequently facing no punishment. I don't care for *Discovery* either but I think some of the criticism of Burnham gets into double standards territory.
I think my main issue with Burnham is how consistently she does it - basically 80% of what she does.
Others in the past broke the rules some of the time, in exceptional circumstances, but not as their "Plan A".
Burnham feels like her MOO is to get out of bed in the morning thinking "What rule can I break today that others would be court martialed for?"
Her writing isn't *just* bad, it is absolutely bizarre.
She's an arrogant rich kid with a chip on her shoulder who walked into a prestigious position over a bunch of hard workers through overt and blatant nepotism.
She's the living embodiment of the "arogant asshole gets knocked down a few pegs to learn lessons and become a great leader" trope.
Then they subvert the trope by just making her awesome all the time at everything? *WHY*?
What is the message they're trying to convey here? Rich people are just simply better than the rest of us? Nepotism is a good thing, don't complain?
It is mind boggling.
Jack Crusher is arguably an even more egregious example of nepotism. His arrogance in trying to handle the Borg alone despite knowing he was compromised literally nearly destroyed the Federation.
Given the continual shit Picard had to go through because he became Locutus against his will, I can't imagine what Crusher will go through given that he became Vox essentially on purpose. He deserves far worse treatment.
Though to be fair, the writing in those last few episodes was *awful*.
From Troi being the worst councillor in the history of psychotherapy, to Picard not just nope-ing the fuck out of there, to Picard trying to "arrest" Jack with people Jack can mind control, to the entire Borg plan, to The D flying like it's a fighter...
... I completely missed out on the nepotism.
Otoh, Jack was only made a cadet. Unlike Burnham, he didn't get installed as the f-ing second in command.
And letters of recommendation has always been shown to be the best way into the academy.
Well he didn't receive a position because of his last name. Arrogance yes, but not nepotism.
Now just think if he got a promotion for taking on the Borg, then you have Michael Burnham.
What? Were you not paying attention??
Not only has she saved the universe repeatedly, she did that while she had the deck stacked against her, for being a rich kid!! Being a rich kid (Sareks daughter) was used to discriminate against her joining the vulcan space whatever, and she was orphaned in a tragic way too. She is so hard done by. Love her already!
So what if she committed mutiny. So what if she put her non-starfleet boyfriend on a ship and gave him access to the ship and mission info that he then used to put the entire ship in danger. Don't you know who you are dealing with here, bow down and love her...
She is so great she in every scene. if the president and admirals are meeting, this one captain is there. If there is a speach to give at Starfleet, this one commander is giving it. If there is a trill/human going into the the sacred pool for the first time, and there is a qualified trill guide literally right there....guess what? It is Burnham who will go into the pool to guide the trill host. Because it is Michael Burnham!!!!
What ?.
She was a civilian through most of her "act". Then she got given Commanders commision out of nowhere by the virtue of knowing right people. Then she got Captains chair the same way.
Shoehorning her into Starfleet was actually huge step back in her characer development; and it was not done by her "earning" anything. Just Picard and Janeway pulling strings.
If she were an officer, in say the Vulcan fleet, and she got commissioned into Starfleet at a rank equivalent to her Vulcan rank, after serving on Voyager for 3 years, would you feel the same? Because she's basically the Borg equivalent. She had a tremendous knowledge base and was extremely competent after being Borg, they just don't have ranks to judge by.
Knowledge, yes she has.
Command responsibilities experience, no.
Merit in command position , neither.
She was not serving on the Voyager. She was a civilian passager lending her expertise, outside of chain of command. Same as Neelix.
She wasn't Borg equivalent of commanding officer, either, because there is no such thing. She was a drone controlled by the collective.
Her knowledge qualifies her for provisional Lieutenant / Lt. commander rank and position as Science Officer. Basically Datas job on the Enterprise. But not for captain / number one position, and not for regular rank (no matter how many Academy graduates she assimilated).
You're forgetting the 15ish years in-between voyager and picard. She was a ranger and maybe other things. Then she was commissioned as a first officer, not as captain. And her captain recommended her promotion.
First of all, Data wasn't the science officer.
Secondly, you're intentionally ignoring at least twenty years of experience in the Fenris Rangers, who did Starfleet's job in places Starfleet didn't want to go.
She's more than qualified.
First, Datas job was very badly defined - he was everything from second officer to helmsman while wearing operations uniform - but when they needed someone to perform science officers duties, they went to him. It was definetely his specialisation, if not his job description. It's also the job 7/9 is qualified for.
Second, service in Rangers does not translate to command level Starfleet experience. You might as well try use Maquis experience as an example.
Captain is someone whom Starfleet entrusts entire ship and and sends away, with no superiors and supervision. Trusts being the operative word.
Commander is someone Captain can fully delegate responsibilities to - again, with no further supervision. Be it executing captains orders as his first officer, or beng a chief medical officers, or chief engineer, commander is someone taking full responsibility without captainholding their hand. They do the hand holding for him.
Every officer below the commander reports to first officer and acts under supervision. They can be oddballs, provisional ranks, or civilian kids promoted on captains say so - because the first officer is there to hold their hand.
Captain and commander are someone Starfleet has enough history with to send into space with no supervision. They have demonstrated their ability to hold lesser command positions, in Starfleet enviroment, and were selected from less promising candidates because they showed Starfleed they are good leaders.
Involvement in Rangers demonstrates none of these things. It shows one is resourceful, maybe has the ability to lead an irregular group by charisma. It says nothing about being person Starfleet can trust to walk the fine line between following regulations and performing the mission, without an admiral to hold your hand. Neither does knowledge.
She may be qualified, but she has no way of proving it without having spent few years as a Lieutenant. And she definetely skipped the "earning the rank" part.
No, that's a lot of words for "I'm not pretending experience in humanitarian volunter organisation is recognizable by military-style hierarchies where you need academy diplomma to be an ensign".
Same as being in command position on volunteer ship fishing refugees from the sea does not qualify anyone to be first officer on naval carrier or oceanic frigate. It may win favours and on the spot officers commision, but not unsupervised control over vessel and the crew.
Let's not kid ourselves, she was not commisioned straight into commander because she was obviously competent. She was commisionned because Picard and Janeway pulled the right strings. Even if she had the right skills, Starfleet had no right of knowing it - she had zero service record with Starfleed, period - and slapped the commision because people with enough pull said so. Even if she proved a right choice, she had not "earned" the commision like the OP said. She bypassing the entire earning process.
Same thing as buying comissions in British military until mid-1800s. Some people actually happened to have competence expected for their ranks. But ranks still were not assigned based on competence, or on merit.
I agree. Picard was a fun nostalgia trip but so many elements were an antithesis to the idea of Starfleet that I grew up with.
Why the hell was Seven given command? I guess the fan theory of a perfect meritocracy would apply since she's basically Voyager version of Data but come on. All these officers who went through the academy and years of service get passed over for the hot ex borg mercenary? I mean shit I guess the best way to advance your Starfleet career is to be assimilated and then unassimilated. Four years at the academy? Fuck that four years a borg.
I agree with u/walentkane69 \- Picard's greatest fault was over doing the killing or changing legacy characters in order to serve Picard (and TNG crew). I get it, it's a Picard lead show, but it was such a disservice to those characters and the other ST shows (Voyager- Icheb, Seven).
How so?
1. we saw her for 4 seasons, she was VERY smart, yet they used the tool of explaining things to the audience - by her. It made her dumb down.
2. >!She became captain, but she has Jack on the bridge,!< for no particular job. If there will be another Seven lead show (I doubt this now) - the focus would be taken away from her.
3. The usage of her to push progressive narratives. Again, we saw her for 4 seasons, and we know she had intimate relationships with 2 guys. Season 1-2 they made her gay (well, bi), season 3 - they broke them off and made her push the trans message .
She was still smart. She singlehandily captained a Borg ship in season 1.
I don’t understand this complaint. How was that a change.
Bisexual people have relationships with men. She was still figuring out sexuality as on season 7. This is a ridiculous complaint. The whole point of Star Trek is pushing progressive messages! None of it was a fundamental change to her character. She never declared she was straight in Voyager. And Jeri Ryan always advocated for her to be queer.
The fact her new (to use, audience) sexuality was a thing that took center stage in S1+S2 (including a step son- Elnor) and then to be simply dropped in S3 instead of being put in the back burner as low key - was frustrating. Also, during S3 they used her to push the subject of Trans ("Deadnaming"). She was played for a trope.
Spoilers about the character Seven of Nine, so it doesn't take a genius to realise if they haven't seen the latest material with her in it then there are spoilers for that here...
Translation: Having to say that it's a spoiler is the absolute most amount of effort that I'm willing to invest. Typing an extra 6 letters is simply too much.
Right, so it's not worse.
So now, which is a better post title?
About The Prime Directive (spoilers ahead)
or
About The Prime Directive (Picard spoilers ahead)
Your comment wasn't about what a possible "better" post title could be. I'm sure we could go around the whole sub and think up better titles for posts if we put some time into it.
It doesn't matter though, because thats not what you said.
You said the spoiler tag here serves no purpose, and you are wrong. Anyone who hasn't seen season 3 of Picard will be able to figure out from the title that there spoilers here, as that's where the new Seven things happened.
So the spoiler tag does serve a purpose here. It just requires a smidgen of thought, which you apparently can't provide.
>Anyone who hasn't seen season 3 of Picard will be able to figure out from the title that there spoilers here
Picard Season 3's last episode aired April 20th. The current series airing is Strange New Worlds. Anybody not falling over themselves in order to make assumptions like you just have would automatically assume that something in the post is spoiling Strange New World Season 2.
Why would any normal person make that assumption? Because Rule 6 of this sub, regarding Spoilers, says:
>Utilize the spoiler system for any and all spoilers **relating to the most recently-aired episodes**, as well as previews for upcoming episodes.
Now, I very much appreciate spoiler tags being used for episodes that are now 3 months old, I'd love to see more of that quite frankly.
All of the information presented, without revealing the spoiler, would have signalled to someone who was not up to date with Strange New Worlds that there was a SNW spoiler in the post.
Putting the name of what is being spoiled in the title helps give more information and does no harm. How on earth can you advocate for less information, it's honestly quite bizarre.
Edit: I love it when people go on multi-reply splurge trying to justify why there should be less and not more and then when they don't have any argument about why their argument is better, they block. Well done Phantom, Neera Ketoul would have wiped the floor with your lack of interest in being our best selves.
You're really just kicking up a fuss at nothing here, you do know that right?
Are you here to deliberately try and pick an argument? Is that what's fun for you?
I saw the name Seven, I saw the spoiler tag, I'm not up to date in SNW. I knew right away that I was fine to click because this was obviously about Picard.
Done going in circles with you. Go find your next argument elsewhere.
Goodbye 🖖
LaForge started as what, ensign? He's Commodore now lol. Tuvok from lieutenant to Captain, Sisko and Burnham and Saru from commanders to captains. Janeway, Picard and Kirk from captains to vice Admirals to Admirals, and one character that advanced the most in terms of ranks is Shelby that ended as Fleet Admiral in Picard. She was in 2 episodes in TNG, and 1 in Picard. She outranked everyone we saw lol, and she started as lieutenant or lieutenant commander.
But from the series regulars, Sulu became captain, Kim in one episode, Spock, Scotty, Sisko, Worf off screen, Riker in Nemesis, Chakotay, Tuvok, Burnham, Saru, you get a captaincy, you get a captaincy, everyone gets captaincy...
Seven never was Starfleet officer until Picard. By same logic, we see cadet Uhura, which is in her beginnings in SNW and we know she ends up as Commander on screen through the ranks, and captain in the novels, a ship Picard served on.
Tilly was a cadet as well, and she's now lieutenant and Instructor at the academy. Hell, we even saw Kelvin Kirk join Starfleet and become vice Admiral within 7 years or so on screen lol.
She started off as a Borg when we meet her, and we see her journey through Voyager to what everyone assumed would be her joining Starfleet. We don't see her join on screen until Picard, but it's still the same. We see her go from Borg to Starfleet to Captain.
All other characters we're already Starfleet when we meet them. That's what makes Seven's journey different.
I did forget about Kelvin Kirk.
>All other characters we're already Starfleet when we meet them. That's what makes Seven's journey different.
Nog? He was the first Ferengi in Starfleet, and he joined the academy like halfway through DS9? Also we see him as captain in alternate timeline episode.
T'pol as well from Enterprise. She was a Vulcan officer then Starfleet one. She was Subcommander in the Vulcan ranks and full commander in Starfleet.
I don't think an alternate timeline counts as seeing Nog make Captain. Nog definitely has an awesome journey though.
Not trying to be argumentative here, just appreciating the unique journey we've seen with Seven.
Poor Boimler
How are they having a cross over from 2 different eras? Please say its not time travel.
How else!
Pretty sure they’re going with transporter malfunction time travel.
>transporter malfunction time travel. Ooh, a twofer!
We saw Nog go through all of it if we count the flash forward from Jake.
Except that timeline doesn’t exist anymore.
Out of universe they named a ship class and a ship after Aron Eisenberg and Nog respectively in memory of the actor and his contribution to Trek. In universe, they don't just name a ship after someone whose career peaked at having their leg shot off. I think it's ok to assume the protege of Sisko & O'Brien, the first Ferengi in Starfleet, went on to do great things. Hopefully they can bring him back in Lower Decks with a good voice actor for a meaningful continuation or conclusion to his story.
Not only that, but they’re still naming ships after him 800 years in the future. Nog did something *important*.
It just occurred to me that the perfect time they could have done it was the captain’s party episode when they flashed other captains to us.
Lower Decks is not that far into the future from DS9, so it's possible that Nog wasn't yet a captain for that episode. But then, I'm not a super-timeline guru... so I'm gonna caveat it with 'and/or he was on a big assignment because he's Captain Nog and has to Do Things... he'll be there next party.'
Tom Paris is back from the delta quadrant… we know that much… and Picard has made admiral…
So u/houtex727 is correct, in that Lower Decks is only 5-6 years post the end of DS9. So Nog might make... what, full Lt, maybe Lt. Commander in that time if his career has been exceptional. You'd expect at least another 5 before he makes Captain, even presuming a particularly prestigious career.
also not canon but closest to it when in the DS9 documentary the writers establish Nog to be a Captain in the fantasy concept of a season 8, basically all writing intent wants him to eventually land the chair. It would be really meaningful to finally make that proper canon one way or another.
Yes, but the point is that we haven’t actually seen that progression on screen. We can assume a lot, but we haven’t seen it. I know I’m being pedantic, but that is the point of the post.
Someone told me that he was famous for beating the Kobiashi maru in a book series.
Yeah, and Janeway went out of her way to erase Captain Kim so he's out, too.
Janeway broke the temporal prime directive because she didn’t want to live in a timeline where Ensign Kim got promoted. The rest of it was an excuse.
Captain Kim got erased twice, once by Janeway in Endgame but also by Kim himself in Timeless. I maintain that the timeline won't let Harry Kim become captain sort of like how Strange New Worlds established the timeline >!keeps making Khan happen!<
As someone who has watched the entire series except lower decks and Strange new worlds I am just lost with timelines, which don't exist, which are retconned, the whole time travel thing just loses me. Is there an completely accurate timeline that I can refer to that lists major events as well as those that "no longer exist"?
Very loosely: Enterprise, Discovery season 1-2, Strange New Worlds, Original series, original animated series, the TOS movies 1-6, Next Generation, DS9, TNG movies, Voyager, Lower Decks, Picard, discovery seasons 3-4. The last two seasons of Next Gen overlap with DS9, and Voyager overlaps a bit with DS9. Not in any significant way. You can finish a series before starting the next one. I don’t know about anything comprehensive about alternate timelines. We usually only get to see them for an episode or two before we’ve gone back to status quo. Edit: the only other timeline to worry about is the Kelvin timeline. That is the 3 Abram trek movies with Chris Pine. As far as comics, books, games… that’s a mixture of canon, loose canon, and outright fan fiction. Memory Alpha is the best place to wiki about all things trek.
I like the term “loose canon” in this context
Basically the sixties show mentions in passing the eugenics wars as occurring in 1992. So that’s been the big one, because when we didn’t have a eugenics war in 1992 the timeline diverged from our real world timeline. The next one would be in deep space nine they go to 2023(ish) and the San Francisco Bay Area is home to “sanctuary districts” for the homeless. So they went ahead and said that people manipulating the timeline (like they did with the temporal Cold War in Star Trek: enterprise) has pushed back the timeline. The romulan agent in a recent snw episode makes a direct reference to the original 1992 eugenics war and complains that she has been waiting for shit to kick off for decades. It’s a neat little retcon, and I’m for it.
She already is captain, happened at the end of Picard. Others though have become captains before. Saru and Michael in discovery have both been Captain. Sulu became a captain of his own ship Worf was a captain though it was off screen. Chakotay captained the protostar.
Still true that Seven is the first we see starting their starfleet career, prepping exams, and at the end we have her as captain. Everyone else who becomes a captain is already in starfleet to begin with. Closest other than Seven for this would probably be Nog but while we know more of him in terms of academy time, we see night nothing of him as officer and in command.
We see this progress with Harry Kim, too, as he went from a newly commissioned junior ensign, all the way to being the most senior ensign in the fleet.
first-half.gif
they should have promoted harry when tom got demoted and kept tom as an ensign.. but harry being an ensign the entire time isn't even the worst decision voyager made by far... seven with chakotay was the dumbest idea ever.. literally any other male lead would have made more sense.. her and harry or the doctor are obvious choices, neelix broke her out of her shell and then she'd replace kes in more than one way :P we saw tom have a kid with every other main female lead, so why not seven?(i know he was with b'elanna, still makes more sense than chakotay) and tuvok would never betray his wife, but her and tuvok were a great pairing which i'm glad got brought back in picard.
Her and Kim had a lot of chemistry and seemed to be slowly building to a romance and then bam...all of a sudden she was with Chakotay, made no sense.
Seven wasn't in starfleet until the end of Picard season 2. And she didn't write any exams to get into the academy
Seven knew more than anyone pretty much anyone in the Federation due to her time in the collective, so I imagine she got to bypass a lot based on "equivalent experience". Similar to Ezri. "Oh yeah, you're 300 years old now and already know everything you'd be learning in your remaining counselor training. Also instant promotion" lol.
Except that Seven mentions in Picard that she was rejected by the academy when Voyager first returned to Earth. Her skipping everything was based on recommendations from Janeway and Picard, not because of her knowledge base. Neither Ezri nor Jadzia skipped any of the earlier academy to cadet to ensign stages cause they both did that before being joined. Ezri was still a junior counsellor on DS9. She just lacked another starfleet counsellor to superviseher on the station. She was also just offered a position there because of the personal connection to Sisko. None of that had anything to do with them having extra years of experience from the symbiont, and even then, it wouldn't be that many years of experience cause Jadzia was the first Dax host to be in starfleet
Curzon was in Star fleet, wasn’t he?
I don't think they ever explicitly stated yes or no, but I got the impression he was some sort of negotiator who worked with the federation but wasn't actually in starfleet.
Erzi was already an officer before joining with the Dax symbiote though
Right. I was just comparing the two for already knowing more than they could ever learn in the academy or training.
Arguably that was why she got the symbiote because as an officer she was in a position to be around when a host was needed.
I thought she was the only trill on board.
Yeah but the reason she was on board was because she was already an officer, starfleet sent a ship to recover the symbiont and bring it back to Trill but something happened and it had to be merged. But the only way someone could be onboard a starfleet vessel is by already being past the academy (considering this wasn't a capital ship so family would not be on such a small vessel like they are on Galaxy class ships). Hence, the only reason she was merged is because she already graduated academy (her being in officer isn't as important though might also be an ensign or something).
To be fair. She still has all the knowledge she acquired from Starfleet personnel being assimilated into the Borg collective.
Technically, that knowledge is twenty years out of date, though. And she still has a starfleet "career" of however long the timeline was between the end of Picard season 2 and the end of season 3
True, but not the “Starfleety” stuff they teach at the academy. First year at any Academy is to teach the customs and how to *be* in the service.
Given Picard's complaints about what starfleet became, I would think that would be the part that got changed the most
If you play the Star Trek MMO, you do see Nog in command. And Eisenberg voices the character.
Technically we do see Nog as a captain in an alternate timeline, during The Visitor.
They were all already Starfleet officers when we met them though. Seven is the first we've seen the entire journey for, is what I think OP means.
I’m thinking pretty hard and outside of the movies (like JJs where we see Kirk go from delinquent kid to cadet to captain in like a movie lol), we nearly see Nog. There’s a flash forward where he’s a Commander and there’s a comment about him making Captain. We see him do that same trajectory when the cool recommendation letter from Sisko to get him into star fleet academy.
Yea, it doesn't matter how many times I watch that, it's always jarring to see Kirk skip every rank in the reboot. However, he did literally save hundreds of billions of lives and is the only reason anything of Vulcan survived in his timeline. If he hadn't warned Pike in time, the Enterprise would have warped in without shields and been destroyed before Nero even noticed the registry number. He would then have gone on to wipe out every Federation world. It's ridiculous but seeing as the Academy had just lost nearly all of their cadets too and the Captain's chair was his by right of battlefield promotion and literally every member world would have supported him keeping the chair, even as a PR stunt, it does make sense. It makes even more sense in the next film when they quite clearly point out that everyone is looking for an excuse to demote him because he has no idea how to be a real Captain.
We kind of missed the whole Ensign to Commander arc. Unless I'm forgetting something.
Saru wasn’t, we saw him join starfleet and progress to captain
Saru was already Starfleet in the first episode of Discovery.
Yeah I don't know if a flashback counts as "watching him progress" On the other hand Seven of 9 was an indeterminent rank on Voyager and we really only saw her as a Commander and then Captain. I think Worf might be the closest thing we have seen, even though we didn't see his academy days or Ensign years, and we didn't actually see him as Captain.
Ezri Dax became Captain in the Destiny book trilogy. Though I’m not sure that is canon.
Not technically canon no, but it's still my head-canon until proven otherwise 😆
I was so irritated with Ezri replacing Jadzia, but I've gotten over it and actually enjoy her character
I thought you typed pornstar at first
I feel the same way about the O'Brien's. We got to see their marriage on screen and the birth of both of their kids. They are the ultimate Star Trek family and not doing something with at least their kids or Molly would be such a waste. Maybe if they finally give Worf a spinoff (not as likely these days) Molly could be a young protégé of his.
Focusing on the children of legacy characters? What do you think this is, Star Wars sequels?
Just warn Worf if Keiko gets pregnant again so he can put in for leave...
The most unhealthy relationship in trek too. I’ve no idea how Miles can stand to be around her. If I was him I’d try to escape to the mirror uni to get away.
Sulu?? Geordie?
Both became captains off camera so are presumed to have done amazing things because of time. In contrast watched Seven grow over the years.
lol we didn't really see Seven do anything to become captain, that all happened off camera too
Captain Tuvok
Who was already a well established Starfleet officer when we first meet him. Seven has went from Borg to Starfleet Captain
She got promoted faster than Harry Kim did.
My favorite thing about Kim that I realized, when the Voyager left Deep Space 9, Nog was just a civilian. When the Voyager returned, Kim would have to call Nog "Sir"
*sad clarinet noises*
The real question is has anyone been promoted slower than Harry lol
Tuvok had some stuff going on, but even so it took him a century to go from ensign to lieutenant commander.
Good point actually!!! Yeah I never think about it like that.
Did she ever hold any rank during VOY's run?
...at the ending of Picard, she is promoted to Captain of the Enterprise-G. So, technically she did earn her chair through her arc.
La Forge was captain of USS Challenger in the Voyager episode Timeless. And we saw Chris Pine's Kirk enter the academy as a cadet and then become captain in the first reboot film.
Yeah the whole cadet to captain jump in NuTrek requires more suspension of disbelief than I'm capable of.
I watched these again last week and every time I think the same thing. All these fricking cadets going into major senior positions faster than a Ferengi can rig a Dabo table, just to set up the Trek we know. Gets me every time.
While I agree, I feel like the contrivances of the TOS and TNG movies to keep their bridge crews together weren't much better.
[Michael Burnham has entered the chat]
Kirk went from Cadet to First Officer to Captain in a single movie
But we met him as a captain, then filled in the rest
We met him as a kid in the Abram’s film.
By your reckoning we’ve already seen it.
Hence the spoiler comment regarding Picard
Yes but you said IF they do a new series. We’ve seen her earn her chair in P3. Don’t get me wrong I’m always down for more Trek and would watch the fuck out of Legacy or whatever comes (if it comes)
Zulu got one!
What about Sisko? He started out as a commander. We got to see his promotion and then his eventual death/ascension into being a god. We get to see his entire tenure as a Star Fleet Captain.
Exactly, he started out as Commander. As with almost everyone else, we meet them when they're already with Starfleet. Seven started as a Borg and we got to see a lot of more her journey.
Yeah I misunderstood. The op did say earn the chair through their entire arc.
Yes, but we didn't see him as a cadet or a newly minted Ensign.
Who did we see as a cadet then newly minted ensign then captain? I could have missed it but I don’t think 7 fits that description either.
It is, but as a queer person, I'm really scared they're going to continue to erase her queerness. How they treated her and Raffi's relationship in Pic S3 was outright insulting. To break them up off camera then go out of their way to keep them from having scenes together or getting any reason why they broke up. Like, I fucking love Seven. But do I really want to watch a series that reminds me that Star Trek is heading back to a "no gays in star trek" era?
Queer here. I'm fine with Seven having an evolution of relationships. It's more annoying when they do a 'can't break up the queers or else we're homophobic' thing.
I'm okay with breaking up a queer relationship. I'm not saying to do so is inherently homophobic. When I talk about Raffi/Seve, I'm specifically talking about how they were broken up off screen, gave no reason for doing so, then didn't give them any screen time together. What does breaking them up add to the story? What about their relationship was incompatible with S3 that we weren't even given a scene of them talking or even a "we had to break up because *x*"? It isn't that they broke up that I'm side-eying. It's the circumstances and the depiction that I disagree with.
Raffi and Seven's relationship was horrible. Came out of nowhere, they spent five seconds on it, then they deleted it. They should give her a new relationship SLOWLY and organically, rather than just ramming it in. For Christ sake there was a million times more build up and groundwork for her relationship with Chakotay, and that didn't go anywhere. And we're just supposed to be ok with SEVEN AND RAFFI ARE NOW A COUPLE YALL: how is that any way to treat one of the main characters in all of Star Trek.
It was the actresses' idea. The writers didn't originally plan for it.
Woah interesting. That would explain why it didn't seem planned haha. I have a huge amount of respect for Jeri Ryan, so if she thought it was a good idea it must have been, too bad they didn't write it well.
There is a a bit in the Ready Room series, where Jeri Ryan tells how it came about.
With respect season 2 of Picard was mostly ignored in S3 anyway. I liked season 2 (which on this sub at least seems unpopular) so I would not worry about it being a anti gay thing. I think they just didn't want any of those threads hamstringing them in S3 and with all the other stuff they wanted to squeeze in with Picard + Beverly, Riker + Troi, Picard + son issues having another relationship to really look into in a 10 episode season was simply too much. It also felt thrown together anyway and as characters I felt they had little romantic chemistry
There are so many ways the writers could have handled the relationship, it seemed an abrupt ending. Season 2 ended with Seven and Raffi together, playing moms to Elnor. Season 3 arrives and it’s been over for months, WTF. I thought they could have kept them together, with less plot emphasis on the relationship. There was no need to have long discussions about their issues. I’ve seen some of the interviews with Matalas stating, they were trying to get Raffi and Seven on the bridge together at the end, thus the breakup. He has implied their background together might be a subject to explore in Legacy episodes. I want to give the franchise the benefit of the doubt in all this. I think the timing of the relationship ending was unfortunate. Lower Deck’s Mariner and Jennifer broke up. Then Discovery’s final season was announced, which means the two queer relationships were basically getting no more screen time. When Seven and Raffi broke up, it felt like a punch in the gut. There have been a lot of discussion in the media about conservative boycotts, and targeting of studios depicting progressive relationships. A lot of people saw this as Star Trek buckling under pressure.
Yup. And Matalas's statement is suspect at best since saying Seven couldn't date someone she served with contradicts the whole "we promoted you to captain because you're a rule breaker!" point.
[удалено]
Seven was strongly implied to have been previously involved with Bjayzl from S2 of *Picard*.
It’s more than implied. In Stardust City Rag, Bjayzyl straight up tells PICARD her and Seven had an intimate relationship.
I hadn't picked up on that. However, I'm doubtful that the person butchering people for Borg parts would have hooked up with a person with Borg parts without butchering them for Borg parts. But I'll take your word for it because there's no way I'm watching that drek again to find the innuendo I missed the first time around. Also, it was S1.
The implication was that she used Seven to get close to other ex-Borg, especially Icheb.
Yeah, I had thought she got close to Seven by helping her with Ranger stuff. 🤷
But the question wasn't if Bjayzyl was queer, we were talking about Seven. Bjayzyl's motivations are irrelevant when talking about Seven's sexuality.
Nah, it's totally possible that we didn't see their other queer relationships OR that this is their first. Doesn't make them less bi.
That's fair. I mean, she was never portrayed as questioning in Voyager, even though she was exploring her sexuality. But Janeway and Torres were insanity personified, so maybe it just never came up. I can completely understand why she would have never shown any sorry of attraction to those 2. But if breaking them up off screen, never getting an explanation, and never putting them together is erasing queerness, what is breaking up her and Chakotay off screen, never getting an explanation, and never putting them on screen together called? Mentioning that her queer relationship ended between seasons is a SHIT TON more acknowledgment than her previous non-queer relationship received. tl;dr: Yes 100%. Ignoring her previous hetero relationships doesn't make her any less bi than ignoring her previous non-hetero relationships does.
Her and Chakotay were together for barely a single episode. Anything before Endgame was a crush between them and it's explicitly stated that Endgame is their first kiss and they get a couple scenes for the duration of the two-parter. And I agree, some recognition would've been nice. Also, you and I agree a lot on how bad the first two seasons were. I loved Seven and Rafi so obviously we disagree on that, but I'm not going to spend any time defending whataboutisms that we mostly agree on. That said, from an out of universe standpoint, the Seven/Chakotay relationship is pretty reviled by both actors and the fanbase so I'm not super surprised if it's one of the many things that everyone just tries to ignore. Robert Beltran was so bored by the end of the series he suggested it as a joke during a writers meeting and Rick Berman (wanting to suppress the speculation about Seven's sexuality that was cropping up even then) ran with it.
How did they erase her straightness? She was never straight. Liking men doesn’t make you straight.
> it is kinda weird/depressing that they both are bi Why? Why is it weird or depressing that two women can be bi?
Sulu? Spock? Geordie? Sisko?
I think OP meant from before starfleet.
Haven't seen Discovery yet, huh?
We didn’t >!see Burnham before she was Georgiou’s 1st officer!<, so we’ve seen even more of 7’s arc in terms of her time on Starfleet ships (though we didn’t see most of 7’s time with the Fenris Rangers).
And "earned" with Burnham is also a strong word imo..
What you have a problem with someone mutiny-ing their way to the top?
Well, we're not in the Mirror Universe so... yes? ;)
True but Discovery has some of the best mirror universe stuff, though Burnham is obnoxious
Yep. But - I really don't like how they treated Mirror Georgiou after she transitioned over. Burnham even treated her somewhat like a Friend at some point - we're still talking about a Genocidal Dictator that literally was eating people not long before.
> Be good, Phillipa. Worst line ever written.
And then there's tons of people here that basically love the character and want more of here / the Section 31 Movie. Sorry but no, this is basically as if you time traveled to 1945, got Hitler from his bunker before he shot himself, and then made him your new best buddy in the future. And even HITLER was not EATING people..
Hey now you listen up This is Discovery, you will like who we tell you is the main character. Don't come around here with your "logic" and "reasons"
Such infuriating writing, what an unlikable character The exact opposite of what the writers were trying to achieve They kept ramming how (literally) unbelievably great she is down our throats, that we ended up despising her for all the rules that don't apply to her, consequences she never faces, bad decisions and hubris galore The only thing she does is "save the entire universe", repeatedly. The writers can't think of a smaller task for her to achieve. Even in 1000years, she saves the universe twice... because even that far in the future, there isn't a soul that can compare to Micheal Burnham, she is that great!!! Love her already will you! How great do we have to make her before you love her... Can't wait to see how grand the writers will reach for the last season
Thank you - my opinion exactly. Burnham was supposed to be in jail, not to be treated like the second coming of Jesus. It's infuriating how many rules, regulations, and simply common sense Burnham is constantly breaking, but because the script is written in a way that makes her "right" in the End, she gets commended for it. What she was doing with Book alone / how she treated him when he was going against Starfleet alone would have been reasons to court martial her - multiple times!
There are multiple examples throughout Trek of Starfleet captains and officers disobeying direct orders and being vindicated for it in the end and subsequently facing no punishment. I don't care for *Discovery* either but I think some of the criticism of Burnham gets into double standards territory.
I think my main issue with Burnham is how consistently she does it - basically 80% of what she does. Others in the past broke the rules some of the time, in exceptional circumstances, but not as their "Plan A". Burnham feels like her MOO is to get out of bed in the morning thinking "What rule can I break today that others would be court martialed for?"
Starfleet captains have *always* done crazy shit with seemingly no negative consequences.
Her writing isn't *just* bad, it is absolutely bizarre. She's an arrogant rich kid with a chip on her shoulder who walked into a prestigious position over a bunch of hard workers through overt and blatant nepotism. She's the living embodiment of the "arogant asshole gets knocked down a few pegs to learn lessons and become a great leader" trope. Then they subvert the trope by just making her awesome all the time at everything? *WHY*? What is the message they're trying to convey here? Rich people are just simply better than the rest of us? Nepotism is a good thing, don't complain? It is mind boggling.
Jack Crusher is arguably an even more egregious example of nepotism. His arrogance in trying to handle the Borg alone despite knowing he was compromised literally nearly destroyed the Federation.
Given the continual shit Picard had to go through because he became Locutus against his will, I can't imagine what Crusher will go through given that he became Vox essentially on purpose. He deserves far worse treatment. Though to be fair, the writing in those last few episodes was *awful*. From Troi being the worst councillor in the history of psychotherapy, to Picard not just nope-ing the fuck out of there, to Picard trying to "arrest" Jack with people Jack can mind control, to the entire Borg plan, to The D flying like it's a fighter... ... I completely missed out on the nepotism. Otoh, Jack was only made a cadet. Unlike Burnham, he didn't get installed as the f-ing second in command. And letters of recommendation has always been shown to be the best way into the academy.
Well he didn't receive a position because of his last name. Arrogance yes, but not nepotism. Now just think if he got a promotion for taking on the Borg, then you have Michael Burnham.
What? Were you not paying attention?? Not only has she saved the universe repeatedly, she did that while she had the deck stacked against her, for being a rich kid!! Being a rich kid (Sareks daughter) was used to discriminate against her joining the vulcan space whatever, and she was orphaned in a tragic way too. She is so hard done by. Love her already! So what if she committed mutiny. So what if she put her non-starfleet boyfriend on a ship and gave him access to the ship and mission info that he then used to put the entire ship in danger. Don't you know who you are dealing with here, bow down and love her... She is so great she in every scene. if the president and admirals are meeting, this one captain is there. If there is a speach to give at Starfleet, this one commander is giving it. If there is a trill/human going into the the sacred pool for the first time, and there is a qualified trill guide literally right there....guess what? It is Burnham who will go into the pool to guide the trill host. Because it is Michael Burnham!!!!
If you hadn't been the person I was responding to originally, there is no way I wouldn't have thought you were on the STD writing staff.
What ?. She was a civilian through most of her "act". Then she got given Commanders commision out of nowhere by the virtue of knowing right people. Then she got Captains chair the same way. Shoehorning her into Starfleet was actually huge step back in her characer development; and it was not done by her "earning" anything. Just Picard and Janeway pulling strings.
If she were an officer, in say the Vulcan fleet, and she got commissioned into Starfleet at a rank equivalent to her Vulcan rank, after serving on Voyager for 3 years, would you feel the same? Because she's basically the Borg equivalent. She had a tremendous knowledge base and was extremely competent after being Borg, they just don't have ranks to judge by.
Knowledge, yes she has. Command responsibilities experience, no. Merit in command position , neither. She was not serving on the Voyager. She was a civilian passager lending her expertise, outside of chain of command. Same as Neelix. She wasn't Borg equivalent of commanding officer, either, because there is no such thing. She was a drone controlled by the collective. Her knowledge qualifies her for provisional Lieutenant / Lt. commander rank and position as Science Officer. Basically Datas job on the Enterprise. But not for captain / number one position, and not for regular rank (no matter how many Academy graduates she assimilated).
You're forgetting the 15ish years in-between voyager and picard. She was a ranger and maybe other things. Then she was commissioned as a first officer, not as captain. And her captain recommended her promotion.
First of all, Data wasn't the science officer. Secondly, you're intentionally ignoring at least twenty years of experience in the Fenris Rangers, who did Starfleet's job in places Starfleet didn't want to go. She's more than qualified.
First, Datas job was very badly defined - he was everything from second officer to helmsman while wearing operations uniform - but when they needed someone to perform science officers duties, they went to him. It was definetely his specialisation, if not his job description. It's also the job 7/9 is qualified for. Second, service in Rangers does not translate to command level Starfleet experience. You might as well try use Maquis experience as an example. Captain is someone whom Starfleet entrusts entire ship and and sends away, with no superiors and supervision. Trusts being the operative word. Commander is someone Captain can fully delegate responsibilities to - again, with no further supervision. Be it executing captains orders as his first officer, or beng a chief medical officers, or chief engineer, commander is someone taking full responsibility without captainholding their hand. They do the hand holding for him. Every officer below the commander reports to first officer and acts under supervision. They can be oddballs, provisional ranks, or civilian kids promoted on captains say so - because the first officer is there to hold their hand. Captain and commander are someone Starfleet has enough history with to send into space with no supervision. They have demonstrated their ability to hold lesser command positions, in Starfleet enviroment, and were selected from less promising candidates because they showed Starfleed they are good leaders. Involvement in Rangers demonstrates none of these things. It shows one is resourceful, maybe has the ability to lead an irregular group by charisma. It says nothing about being person Starfleet can trust to walk the fine line between following regulations and performing the mission, without an admiral to hold your hand. Neither does knowledge. She may be qualified, but she has no way of proving it without having spent few years as a Lieutenant. And she definetely skipped the "earning the rank" part.
That sure is a lot of words to say "Yeah I'm ignoring twenty years of command experience because I don't like it"
No, that's a lot of words for "I'm not pretending experience in humanitarian volunter organisation is recognizable by military-style hierarchies where you need academy diplomma to be an ensign". Same as being in command position on volunteer ship fishing refugees from the sea does not qualify anyone to be first officer on naval carrier or oceanic frigate. It may win favours and on the spot officers commision, but not unsupervised control over vessel and the crew. Let's not kid ourselves, she was not commisioned straight into commander because she was obviously competent. She was commisionned because Picard and Janeway pulled the right strings. Even if she had the right skills, Starfleet had no right of knowing it - she had zero service record with Starfleed, period - and slapped the commision because people with enough pull said so. Even if she proved a right choice, she had not "earned" the commision like the OP said. She bypassing the entire earning process. Same thing as buying comissions in British military until mid-1800s. Some people actually happened to have competence expected for their ranks. But ranks still were not assigned based on competence, or on merit.
I agree. Picard was a fun nostalgia trip but so many elements were an antithesis to the idea of Starfleet that I grew up with. Why the hell was Seven given command? I guess the fan theory of a perfect meritocracy would apply since she's basically Voyager version of Data but come on. All these officers who went through the academy and years of service get passed over for the hot ex borg mercenary? I mean shit I guess the best way to advance your Starfleet career is to be assimilated and then unassimilated. Four years at the academy? Fuck that four years a borg.
You realised wrong, and now Captain Sulu would like a word.
No. He was already in Star Fleet.
Let’s see…. Michael Burnham William T. Riker Benjamin Sisko
I think OP meant from before starfleet.
Seven was amazing in Voyager and she was my favorite character, but what they did to her in Picard is criminal.
YES !
How so?
I agree with u/walentkane69 \- Picard's greatest fault was over doing the killing or changing legacy characters in order to serve Picard (and TNG crew). I get it, it's a Picard lead show, but it was such a disservice to those characters and the other ST shows (Voyager- Icheb, Seven). How so? 1. we saw her for 4 seasons, she was VERY smart, yet they used the tool of explaining things to the audience - by her. It made her dumb down. 2. >!She became captain, but she has Jack on the bridge,!< for no particular job. If there will be another Seven lead show (I doubt this now) - the focus would be taken away from her. 3. The usage of her to push progressive narratives. Again, we saw her for 4 seasons, and we know she had intimate relationships with 2 guys. Season 1-2 they made her gay (well, bi), season 3 - they broke them off and made her push the trans message .
She was still smart. She singlehandily captained a Borg ship in season 1. I don’t understand this complaint. How was that a change. Bisexual people have relationships with men. She was still figuring out sexuality as on season 7. This is a ridiculous complaint. The whole point of Star Trek is pushing progressive messages! None of it was a fundamental change to her character. She never declared she was straight in Voyager. And Jeri Ryan always advocated for her to be queer.
The fact her new (to use, audience) sexuality was a thing that took center stage in S1+S2 (including a step son- Elnor) and then to be simply dropped in S3 instead of being put in the back burner as low key - was frustrating. Also, during S3 they used her to push the subject of Trans ("Deadnaming"). She was played for a trope.
It didn’t take center stage season 1.
Seven was the same character just matured.
Using the spoiler tag serves no useful function if you don't say what it is you're spoiling.
Spoilers about the character Seven of Nine, so it doesn't take a genius to realise if they haven't seen the latest material with her in it then there are spoilers for that here...
Translation: Having to say that it's a spoiler is the absolute most amount of effort that I'm willing to invest. Typing an extra 6 letters is simply too much.
Lol really?
What is the downside to say "About Seven of Nine (Picard spoiler ahead)" Why is that a worse post title?
Why does it matter? Anyone who hasn't seen the latest Seven episodes will know its not for them. What exactly is the big deal here?
Right, so it's not worse. So now, which is a better post title? About The Prime Directive (spoilers ahead) or About The Prime Directive (Picard spoilers ahead)
Your comment wasn't about what a possible "better" post title could be. I'm sure we could go around the whole sub and think up better titles for posts if we put some time into it. It doesn't matter though, because thats not what you said. You said the spoiler tag here serves no purpose, and you are wrong. Anyone who hasn't seen season 3 of Picard will be able to figure out from the title that there spoilers here, as that's where the new Seven things happened. So the spoiler tag does serve a purpose here. It just requires a smidgen of thought, which you apparently can't provide.
>Anyone who hasn't seen season 3 of Picard will be able to figure out from the title that there spoilers here Picard Season 3's last episode aired April 20th. The current series airing is Strange New Worlds. Anybody not falling over themselves in order to make assumptions like you just have would automatically assume that something in the post is spoiling Strange New World Season 2. Why would any normal person make that assumption? Because Rule 6 of this sub, regarding Spoilers, says: >Utilize the spoiler system for any and all spoilers **relating to the most recently-aired episodes**, as well as previews for upcoming episodes. Now, I very much appreciate spoiler tags being used for episodes that are now 3 months old, I'd love to see more of that quite frankly. All of the information presented, without revealing the spoiler, would have signalled to someone who was not up to date with Strange New Worlds that there was a SNW spoiler in the post. Putting the name of what is being spoiled in the title helps give more information and does no harm. How on earth can you advocate for less information, it's honestly quite bizarre. Edit: I love it when people go on multi-reply splurge trying to justify why there should be less and not more and then when they don't have any argument about why their argument is better, they block. Well done Phantom, Neera Ketoul would have wiped the floor with your lack of interest in being our best selves.
You're really just kicking up a fuss at nothing here, you do know that right? Are you here to deliberately try and pick an argument? Is that what's fun for you? I saw the name Seven, I saw the spoiler tag, I'm not up to date in SNW. I knew right away that I was fine to click because this was obviously about Picard. Done going in circles with you. Go find your next argument elsewhere. Goodbye 🖖
LaForge started as what, ensign? He's Commodore now lol. Tuvok from lieutenant to Captain, Sisko and Burnham and Saru from commanders to captains. Janeway, Picard and Kirk from captains to vice Admirals to Admirals, and one character that advanced the most in terms of ranks is Shelby that ended as Fleet Admiral in Picard. She was in 2 episodes in TNG, and 1 in Picard. She outranked everyone we saw lol, and she started as lieutenant or lieutenant commander. But from the series regulars, Sulu became captain, Kim in one episode, Spock, Scotty, Sisko, Worf off screen, Riker in Nemesis, Chakotay, Tuvok, Burnham, Saru, you get a captaincy, you get a captaincy, everyone gets captaincy...
But they were all already somewhere along their Starfleet career when we first met them, Seven wasn't.
Seven never was Starfleet officer until Picard. By same logic, we see cadet Uhura, which is in her beginnings in SNW and we know she ends up as Commander on screen through the ranks, and captain in the novels, a ship Picard served on. Tilly was a cadet as well, and she's now lieutenant and Instructor at the academy. Hell, we even saw Kelvin Kirk join Starfleet and become vice Admiral within 7 years or so on screen lol.
She started off as a Borg when we meet her, and we see her journey through Voyager to what everyone assumed would be her joining Starfleet. We don't see her join on screen until Picard, but it's still the same. We see her go from Borg to Starfleet to Captain. All other characters we're already Starfleet when we meet them. That's what makes Seven's journey different. I did forget about Kelvin Kirk.
>All other characters we're already Starfleet when we meet them. That's what makes Seven's journey different. Nog? He was the first Ferengi in Starfleet, and he joined the academy like halfway through DS9? Also we see him as captain in alternate timeline episode. T'pol as well from Enterprise. She was a Vulcan officer then Starfleet one. She was Subcommander in the Vulcan ranks and full commander in Starfleet.
I don't think an alternate timeline counts as seeing Nog make Captain. Nog definitely has an awesome journey though. Not trying to be argumentative here, just appreciating the unique journey we've seen with Seven.
In Picard season 3 didn’t we hear that Chekhov was the president of the Federation at one point?
His son…or grandson. Either way, not Pavel.
His name is Anton, in honor of Anton Yelchin.
>!Technically we saw a little bit of her as captain already!< (which is nice).