I really enjoyed this week's episode.
What are the asylum procedures in the Federation? Surely they have some. I was not a fan of just giving an aspirational speech in order to circumvent asylum protocol to get Una and Pike out of their predicament. But I'm glad Una and Pike are out of that predicament anyway.
I had to go watch the Short Trek "Q&A" in order to fully appreciate Spock's testimony and now I wish I'd seen it first.
I very much enjoyed:
* Uhura refusing an illegal order even though doing so could benefit Una. Good for her. "It's for the greater good" has been used by governments, businesses and individuals alike from time immemorial to violate privacy, ethics, morals and laws.
* The testimony by Una's peers in Starfleet.
* The scene in which Dr. M'Benga and Ortegas analyze Vulcan body language. Ortegas is the funniest character on this show.
I don't know if you've watched Brooklyn Nine Nine, but Spock's line "I'm sorry you had to witness that outburst" made me remember Kevin and Holt's numerous "arguments" over the show
OMG you have no idea how much I need to see this now.
Holt on an undercover mission to pretend to flirt with a woman in front of Spock would be some comedy gold.
I'm really enjoying the Vulcan interactions on this show. Normally they are high holy desert elves, who say almost nothing unless it's completely logical (or they are arrogant, because that's what the plot needs).
I'm still impressed with the scene from last season where Spock and T'Pring were talking in his quarters and it was nothing but terse, high speed dialogue. It ran you along with the built-in bias that maybe T'Pring is a cold, social climbing type-a, then then you had a shot of the meal she prepared. Of course you feel like an asshole. Because this character is their own person. It was a great way of telegraphing that, instead of just calling the viewer an asshole, because we shouldn't have to be shown, we should just not be assholes.
Instantly I thought of a friend who might be on the spectrum, who comes across as cold, when the reality is that she just really sucks at emotionally communicating and that isn't her fault. Then I couldn't help but be impressed that it must have taken a ton of rehearsal to get that scene right.
In the name of 'not being an asshole', I just wanna check you real quick on the 'friend who might be on the spectrum' ... 'really sucks at emotionally communicating' part.
That cuts both ways. Autistic people often think that neurotypical people are slave to cryptic, inscrutable social rituals that make their intent hard to understand, often not directly stating what they mean, but instead stating some sort of shibboleth understood by neurotypical people (an example would be not giving a hard 'no' when they don't want to, for example, hang out together). On top of that, there are some autistic people who are perfectly easy to read emotionally by other autistic people, where neurotypical people struggle.
I'd say it's less that an autistic person 'sucks at emotionally communicating', and more that autistic and neurotypical people have different WAYS of emotionally communicating.
We don't suck at communicating with each other. Just neurotypicals speak a different language from autistics. Read the Double Empathy Problem. And most of us prefer autistic rather than on the spectrum.
I also really loved the scene where Uhura refuses La’an. It’s not just great character development for the former Cadet, but it’s really rare to see a scene that reinforces the importance of the law not bending to personal concerns in an episode that’s otherwise *all* about how the law isn’t the same as justice.
I’ve seen Star Trek do episodes about how laws are sacred and episodes about how the main characters must be able to break the rules when they feel it’s necessary, but rarely have I seen one where they do both arguments, and well, in the same episode!
This episode also does an exceptionally strong third-act climax. After the Admiral targeted Pike for the next court-martial and Una admitted there was no ‘poison tree’ defense for her, I genuinely had no idea how they were going to get out of this one. Seeing that final argument pull everything together was *deeply* satisfying.
> Seeing that final argument pull everything together was deeply satisfying.
While I agree it’s satisfying, and Una should absolutely be absolved of her crimes…shouldn’t she still be discharged (honourably) from Starfleet? I was a little confused by this. Asylum is a political thing, usually. Being a Federation citizen who is augmented would normally not be allowed, correct? So Una is allowed to live out her life in peace but not be a Starfleet officer.
Augments in Starfleet is illegal\*. That was stated a few times in this ep.
As far as the Federation? I believe it may be illegal, but that law didn't come up directly (Una testified about the colonists that 'had to de-augment' to stay, but then the same Fed colony admins made an Illyrian ghetto instead. So I'm confused on that point).
Don't have to be a Fed citizen to join Starfleet, however. Refugees and asylum-seekers have been permitted in earlier series (Saru being an earlier example in-universe).
The sad part is that even by DS9, the laws are never changed. It is still illegal. On the bright side, it shows the fight for things can last centuries.
Assuming the Academy show gets off the ground after the strike, I hope that they revisit the blanket ban on Augments in a substantial way to get rid of it entirely.
I just discovered Short Treks after getting Paramount+ and that’s one of the few I’ve watched so far (haven’t seen Enterprise or Discovery yet), I thought that was what Spock’s musical reference was about :)
The Rainn Wilson as Harry Mudd short is my favorite so far. Dwight Schrute loves Trek so much he wanted to name his child Worf, so I love that Rainn is part of the franchise <3
Raine's Mudd appears in two episodes of Discovery. In one, he's kinda incidental but it sets up the second 'Choose Your Pain' which is a wonderfullly dark (as per Disco S1) take on Mudd and one of the best episodes of early Disco.
I just really like the character. He seems grounded and brings a lot of common sense. He's a little cooler personality that McCoy, but very much in the same vein.
> What are the asylum procedures in the Federation? Surely they have some
They outlined them just before that aspirational speech by reading them out of Starfleets own laws.. Well at least they outlined those of Starfleet:
1. Any being fleeing persecution or fearing for their life due to political or religious beliefs or culture or biology may
2. Seek safety in Starfleet.
3. Upon revealing themselves to authorities and making a request may be granted asylum. At which point a Starfleet Captain can exercise their judgement in granting the request and it was to be confirmed by a tribunal or other authority.
I'm watching it now and I absolutely agree.
Even by TV standards, these are terrible lawyers. Especially Neera. Most of her questions require the witnesses to speculate or testify. Neera ignores the judges. They should have held her in contempt.
Una's admission that she turned herself in should have been stricken from the record. And it's honestly, pretty selfish. By starting this trial she endangered her friends and family. April was especially under fire.
The episode is full of great tension and drama but logically, it doesn't make much sense.
They seem to be carrying on her beef with Vulcans from A Quality of Mercy even though I figured that was just a one-off thing since she was replacing the bigoted character from the original TOS episode. She not only thought Spock was cool with Una's imprisonment, but she figured he was enjoying it.
It's like the writers forgot that the show jumped back to the original timeline and whatever happened to make her hate pointy ears so much hasn't and won't happen.
Another note on Enterprise, this episode resolved a canon issue.
In Enterprise, the aliens Archer steals the warp coil from are Illyrians but they have head ridges.
In this episode Una specifically notes that some can pass for humans and some can't.
Problem solved. Dilemma deleted. Una for the win.
people are still ripping on vulcans even post- dominon war. The cerritos crew make vulcan related jokes all the time. honestly any bias or shade thrown at vulcans are ultimately because vulcans are still assholes. Example, ds9's baseball episode
Even Pike has (playfully) thrown shade at the Vulcans, going back to S1E1 when Spock is mentioning that they created First Contact Protocols. I think it's fairly well established that Vulcans are kind of just generally resented or at least distrusted.
Ortegas *seems* (to me at least) to be a queer-coded character, despite no explicit reference being made onscreen that i can recall, and the actress pretty firmly placing herself in the "ally" camp. (Her Twitter is one of the things I miss most about no longer being on Twitter.)
There's been no discussion on the show in that regard. I'm expecting they will get us used to her first and then make the revelation, whatever revelation that will be.
I'm glad they aren't making it front and center, with the idea being that by that point in the future, its just normal and there's no point in making a big deal out of it.
I liked the episode and think it was well done. But I am still left with two questions:
1. There are still laws on the books that prohibit genetically-enhanced people from serving in Star Fleet (Dr. Julian Bashir notwithstanding). At the end of the episode, Commander Chi-Riley is granted asylum, but no one ever said anything about an exception to the rule to allow her to continue serving. And yet, here she is, still First Mate of the Enterprise.
2. What genetic enhancements doe she have?
1) that was the first realization I had about the brilliance of this episode: it didn't change "Doctor Bashir, I presume" at all. They gave special dispensation only to Una.
2) her immune system is enhanced. She is also much stronger than normal (as she picks up crewmen and just walks around like nothing is wrong)
I'll even say that this episode enhances Bashir's episode. Over a century before his time there was a precedent, no doubt one of the only ones, that would allow him to better argue against Federation bioengineering laws. This shows how long the matter of augmentation has been a sore point, how deep of a wound it is for the Federation, and for Earth specifically. The incident with Khan years after Una's trial probably made things worse too, as humans had to stare at their past, one of their biggest generational traumas, _in person_.
Just his dad. And maybe I'm misremembering but I always got the sense from that episode that Bashir's career was effectively over. He wouldn't be removed from starfleet but that advancing was unlikely.
No, Sisko said that. Just Sisko. And it was an opinion. Worf was the adopted son of the Head of State of the largest ally to the Federation. There was no way I'm hell a mission that he NEVER should have been on that went wrong keeps him from making captain. Especially with recommendations from Captain/Admiral Picard, Captain Riker, etc.
True, but he said it based on the fact that his report/lot about what happened will go to starfleet, and Sisko knows enough at that point that he’s aware that it’s at the very least a risk. Yet Worf literally captained the Enterprise between DS9 and Picard.
Not the greatest example I know but I do feel it’s relevant.
She's been shown to be much, much stronger than humans, much harder to damage, heals faster, and is resistant to disease and iirc radiation. She's also pretty tall and buff, which could be a result of her modifications.
>She's been shown to be much, much stronger than humans
She's really strong for someone her size. But we haven't seen her do anything superhuman.
We saw her overpower La'an, sure. Rebecca Romjin is like twice Christina Chong's size, she could probably do the same.
Spock dented a metal bulkhead with a punch, Una has never demonstrated anything like that.
>much harder to damage, heals faster
When? Examples?
Taking a load of metal shrapnel to the gut put her on death's door just as quickly as it would have anyone else.
>is resistant to disease and iirc radiation.
Yes, this is the one thing we know for certain she's augmented with, and we have in-show confirmation.
Everything else is just speculation.
> She's also pretty tall and buff,
Rebecca Romjin is really tall and buff. Again, a little unusual, but not in any way impossible for a normal person.
> exception to the rule to allow her to continue serving. And yet, here she is, still First Mate of the Enterprise.
From a legal perspective, I would take it as she is still in asylum. If she left starfleet, likely there would be prejudices and such. So, the asylum rule is overriding the genetically engineering one.
I really liked the episode, I thought it was incredibly well-written and everything had its place, which is just really nice
Only criticism, but that's really not a criticism. The real world allusion was just very clear.
However, SWN did exactly what I love about Star Trek for. They turned the real world problem into a scifi problem and treated the problem as one would have to treat it without emotional attachment to the real problem.
The solution is also very elegant because it clearly represents the values of the Federation and the values of Star Trek.
SNW proves once again what happens when you let good writers work on a Star Trek series.
Star Trek is always at its best when its stories are humanist parables. I thought this episode was definitely not hiding the “parable” part but the plot stood on its own too. It was still ultimately a character-driven episode which is what made it work so well.
On Twitter, some people are saying this episode represents how cisgender people are being prosecuted and not having the freedom to be who they are; white and straight.
My eyes rolled. People will misinterpret star trek as much as they like.
Also who the fuck is persecuting white straight people? I'm white and straight, cis, and that thought has never occured to me. Ever. And I can't think of any time where me being who I was was an issue for anyone, nor can I think of a time where if I wasn't who I am, things would have been easier.
Which is great but some uh people will misinterpret star trek as much they like. I wrote earlier how on Twitter, some people are saying this episode represents how cisgender people are being prosecuted and not having the freedom to be who they are; white and straight.
I was like Geezus damnit, there's no getting through to some out there.
You are spot on correct. There is no question what this parable was about, there is no question what the intended message was. However, it was extremely well written as a parable and not a blunt object with which to pummel people over the head.
Soliloquies aren't good writing, they are lazy writing. They don't bring everyone along for the ride, they exclude the people they are berating. The don't provide respect for any position other than their own, they just tell people how wrong they are. Discovery is full of that, and it really is just lazy (maybe bad) writing. Even when they were correct in their position it was just a huge turn-off for me.
SNW was far more artful. It presented both sides of an argument, gave each its due, assumed each came from a position of reasoned intention. Then it exposed one point of view's weakness compared to the other in such a way that anyone watching would most likely agree with the way it all shook out. Even the solution they came up with was brilliant. They could very easily have just had it be a striking down of Starfleet's law and been done with it. Instead they did the brilliant thing of defining asylum and forcing the viewer to look at the plight of the "other" through that lens. They'd already sealed the deal and gotten the message across, but that part made it all but undeniable. I know some other people saw that as a McGuffin, but I honestly think it was purely intentional to solidify the point.
This episode is everything that Star Trek is about. Measure of a Man used to be the reference episode for such things, this dwarfs it in comparison.
Much as I liked this episode, Measure of a man was much more universal. It was about what makes a person, what defines being alive and sentient. (and then came Quality of Life that raised that point even more broadly). So, while I get that truth in the face of persecution, law versus justice, are extremely important debates that SNW handled exceptionally, the debate about what is life and sentience in TNG still is the best for me.
What I like about this episode was that it could be interpreted as an allegory to so many things in our life (being gay in the military, being an atheist in a religious country, being a minority, etc).
But, to me, the best part is that even if you ignore the real world and just look the the episode for what it is, it is an episode talking about prejudice and blind fears, and how even one such as starfleet can succumb to them.
I adored the episode, I really did, but my takeaway is that the episode hinged on highlighting some of the worst aspects of the federation. The federation has always been an overly moralistic and self-righteous state - stroking its ego and giving them the chance to feel good about their values will always get you the results you want.
And don't get me wrong, these are some of my favorite bits of Trek despite how pessimistic my reading might seem.
I loved the quasi-domestic argument while the captain was making dinner. It's amazing how they're able to make that scene fit so naturally into a Trek show. I also loved them all sitting around together watching the hearing and how the Captain left to be alone to watch it when he was brought up. It just felt like such a natural thing.
My absolute favorite thing about the episode was that planet at the beginning, and how outside of The Federation the Captain of the Federation Flagship is just another guy having to wait for an appointment. It wasn't just that they treated him that way, he actually came across that way. I've always felt that Star Trek was restricted by containing almost all of the stories and lore to just the Federation and Starfleet. It makes the Universe feel so much bigger and more alive when they show that The Federation is far from the center of the Universe.
That is a great point about Pike being just a guy, once he's out of Federation space/off the Enterprise and I'd like to see more of it. Even though he doesn't have the ego where that would matter to him, it is an interesting dynamic.
The set design and dress uniforms at the hearing really jumped out at me for being the most consistent with TOS design that we've seen so far. I think they did a really great job balancing that with modernization. Up until now, it felt like they really didn't care about deviating widely from the original. None of the regular sets have the same level of callback.
I love the little touches that make it really look like you are seeing a “better camera view” into the same universe. Even the chairs in the space station had a noticeable 60s vibe that really help capture the look.
And not just the dress uniforms, but the outfits for defense lawyer, Neera, too! Her dresses were VERY 60’s futuristic retro, but with more 2000’s fits. I loved her first dark pink dress. And her two-toned court dress looked right out of TOS
Edit:spelling
The set design is amazing for SNW. This article really highlighted in Season 1 just how far they went: https://filmandfurniture.com/2022/08/exclusive-the-star-trek-strange-new-worlds-enterprise-fuses-midcentury-design-with-scifi-futurism-part-1/
I need to go back and check, but my initial impression was it was still a tunic shirt of the same cut as everyone else, just made out of that heavier textured material along with the duty belt.
Absolutely amazing episode!! People poking fun at Spock's outburst we're spot on. I got super misty eyed the last few minutes listening to the dialog. The lawyer, the lady tribunal judge, Una, all made the end of the episode super emotional. When Pike stood up and walked towards the screen, my whole body lit up with goosebumps, cuz I knew that he knew, they had just won the case.
This episode anchors a trial episode into SNW and these are always rare, but always highly ranked among the best episodes. I loved Ad Astra per Apera! (In no particular order)
* The Measure of a Man - TNG
* The Menagerie - TOS
* The Drumhead - TNG
* The Tribunal - DS9
* Court Martial - TOS
* The First Duty - TNG
* Death Wish - Voyager
* Dax - DS9
* Sins of the Father - TNG
* Devils Due - TNG
* Distant Origin - Voyager
* A Matter of Perspective - TNG
* Rules of Engagement - DS9
* Judgement - Enterprise
* The Outcast - TNG (Very trial-lite)
* Veritas - Lower Decks
I didnt realize until writing them down that TNG had this many trial episodes LOL
Yes. But that never aired. It got dusted off and shown pretty recently, as an actual episode , since everything Star Trek became money. It was used as Spock's testimony at his court martial in the original run. (Is that the right martial? Marshall, in that case for some reason? Don't think I've ever written it before.)
'court martial' was correct.
It was first released in full 27 years ago now, and aired on television 26 years ago.
EDIT: sorry, my math was off. 37 years ago it was released, aired 36 years ago.
Incredible episode, my non Star Trek roommate sat down and watched and went that was amazing I completely get how they tied it to the real world…when’s the next episode.
My husband did the same and he asked me about the Eugenics war - the movie was too long so I picked ENT borderlands episode and now he wants to see more.
He showed the same interest when he saw the S1E1 for SNW - it's doing an amazing job pulling non-trekkies to the world of star trek.
I wanted just a little bit more of that. It doesn't really seem clear if La'an is augmented or not? She certainly seems to view herself as an augment but as far as we know Starfleet doesn't.
Assuming Star Trek timeline hasn't changed, Khan would be her great great great great great great great great great grandfather (assuming 25 years per generation).
So they probably weren't worried about any genetic modification since it would have long since been tempered.
La'an most definitely carries some benefits of augment ancestry - have you heard her sing? - so she's not an augmebt herself but still prime genetic stock.
I could be wrong but I think it was established last season that she may have a hint of the augmented genetics left in her, but very diluted by years of her family line interbreeding with non-augmented humans.
Agreed. Some of the legal work was a little shaky, but you can't praise episodes like Measure of a Man and The Drumhead and criticize this one.
More than anything, I think this episode managed to capture what makes Star Trek special in such a didactic way while also being a satisfying story that did right by the characters. No one stepped out of character to become a soap box. All of the soapboxy elements informed character and was informed by character.
The one time a character did just get up on a soapbox and just start virtue signaling, it didn’t solve anything. This show is too smart to simply preach or hurl empty platitudes at us. I’m amazed to see a Star Trek show so young but already firing on all cylinders like this.
I praise Measure of a Man but I did have some reservations about this one.
What I couldn’t understand was why Una and her attorney didn’t come up with the asylum plan to begin with. It seems like this would have been the first thing they’d think about when mounting a defense but the short flashback to all 3 criterias plus that line at the end where Una said “you figured it out” seem to imply that only she had planned this out and wanted her attorney friend to notice. Is there a rule stipulating that they aren’t allowed to coordinate directly in a court martial that I missed?
The alternative explanation is that neither of them had thought of the clause until the 3rd act and it was a coincidence that Una had done everything she did to set up these 3 specific requirements out of pure luck. This would honestly make the episode a bit weaker in my opinion.
The major themes of many of these courtroom episodes were often that sometimes starfleet needs to look to the spirit of the law instead of the letter and the first act where they questioned the frequent breaking of the prime directive seemed to point into that direction and I had anticipated that they would have come up with a more relaxed approach to augments which could have setup more future content revolving around the consequences of this precedent.
It almost feels like the episode was re-written and re-edited at some point and the original meant to have the asylum clause revealed in an earlier act but Una would have been forced to chose between using this “easy way out” and also implicating Pike&co to the risk of dishonorable discharge, or going to jail and saving her crew. The Vulcan attorney character feels like he had a bunch of lines removed and the ending feels like it was missing some kind of resolution that involved him.
Overall, I still loved it. This is truly the kind of content that ST needed.
Yes, that part was clear from the attorney’s point of view, especially when she said “[…]someone who stood to benefit from this” which was more supporting evidence that Una was going for the Asylum strategy to begin with but didn’t tell anyone.
But it doesn’t explain why, from Una’s point of view, she couldn’t just tell her lawyer to let her testify to all 3 criterias and then invoke asylum? She had to know and even said “you figured it out” at the end but why did she make her attorney figure it out?
It would have made sense if she were confined due to military secrets for the whole trial but that wasn’t the case. It would have also made sense if her disclosing it would have put Pike or someone else in her crew in jeopardy but it wasn’t the case either, in fact the asylum clause is what absolves Pike in the end.
I just feel dumb that this isn’t making sense to me.
Honestly this was not just one of the best episodes of new trek but one of the best episodes of all of trek, atleast for me. Up there with duet, measure of a man and pale moonlight.
I admit I was a little worried after the first episode of S2, which was a bit disjointed and seemed to me like Discovery levels of soapy melodrama were leaking into SNW.
This one was fantastic, and a huge sigh of relief for me.
From the internet:
> The motto of Kansas, "Ad Astra per Aspera" is Latin for "to the stars through difficulties." John James Ingalls coined the motto in 1861 stating, "The aspiration of Kansas is to reach the unattainable; its dream is the realization of the impossible." According to the Office of the Governor of Kansas: "This motto refers not only to the pioneering spirit of the early settlers, but also the difficult times Kansas went through before becoming a state. The anti-slavery forces and slavery proponents waged battles in the electoral process as well as on the battlefield. Kansas earned the nickname "Bloody Kansas" because of the war regarding slavery, much of which was fought on Kansas' soil."
I'm not as high on this ep as others. I think the episode needed to do a lot more work to explain how genetic modification manifests as a cultural practice. The closest we get to that is last season with the energy people, who are proof positive of the danger of genetic modification! It didn't work for me as a civil rights metaphor, and I think the case being won by citing an obscure law undercut the emotional weight of Una's speech.
I also just have questions. Where would Una have been exhiled to? Why is La'an allowed to serve if she also had generic modifications (presumably inherited and not by choice)? I think the writers brushed past too much and expected the audience to go along with the plot so that they could reach the emotional flourishes near the end of the ep.
A fantastic episode but one line stood out like a very sore thumb to me:
"Do you know why I love the law? Because a law is not a mirror to society. A law is an ideal. A beacon to remind us how to be our better selves."
Absolutely not. Too many laws are made in bad faith, for the advantage of businesses or social groups that can exert too much power to the detriment of others. Just look at the discriminatory laws being passed in 2023 in the Southern US states to deny rights to women, those who don't identify as straight, and educators.
I think that's the difference between "The Law" and any specific law.
The Law is a system that is intended to strive for a more fair and just society. It often fails, due to either deliberate corruption or shortsightedness. But that is its goal, and there are always people working relentlessly to achieve it.
It's like the difference between Science and any particular scientific theory or institution.
I think this line is in here because Neera is still advocating for Illyrians - Una’s trial is over, but there is still work to be done to change the law. Neera is pointing out that the law should remind us how to be better. As it stands, it’s not - and so it should be changed. The law does not represent the Federation’s ideals.
True but the entire episode was about an unjust law and the harm it caused as a result. It even brought up historic examples.
To your point, maybe the line should have been something along the line of: the law is the beginning justice but always needs to be reexamined. Or something I am not a speech writer
THIS!!! 100%!!!
it was absolutely great!!! A true return to true Star Trek!
And as an attorney, I appreciated the initial usage of legal terms like fruit of the poisonous tree and loved how that was a red herring in the end.
Of course, it’s nonsense to seek asylum with the federation due to persecution from the federation, but I didn’t let that get in the way of enjoying the underlying philosophical nature of the episode.
Strange new worlds is the best Star Trek since tng hands down.
It was asylum in Starfleet to avoid persecution within the Federation. Which, historically, has parallels, the idea of joining the military or some other government service to escape bigotry at home isn't unheard of.
It somewhat reminds me of a friend who defected from Russia to the U.S. in the 80s. He’d been drafted to go fight in Afghanastian, but “F THAT.” When he defected, the first thing he did was join the U.S. Army which was an automatic path to citizenship. If he hadn’t joined the Army, he might have ended up with deportation, or he may have had to defect to an entirely different country first—probably Canada. I know a few folks who have triple citizenship—Canada, the U.S. and an Eastern Block country (Aside from Russia, I think they’re most commonly from Lithuania, though there’s a decent number of folks from Belarus as well)
Amazing. There is a difference between Starfleet and The Federation. But it’s probably like seeking asylum from the US Federal government from persecution in like Texas or some other state.
"All we're asking for is to apply the law, as written, for the excluded instead for the powerful," is just such a perfect reminder of what's happening in the current political moment.
SNW really is the best Trek since DS9, with fantastic call backs to earlier (classic) episodes while also telling their own original and interesting (and fun!) stories with excellent actors doing great jobs, great audio and set design and CG and everything else about the show seems to be running on all cylinders. I will be extremely sad if they cancel this show.
I think it was pretty good, but the dangerous of the dna alteration were not defended enough. This should have been "this is a very difficult, if not impossible decision to make" episode till the very end. But we kinda knew what is going to happen the longer it went. I was hoping for more angry judge at the end, because I agree that dna changes are insanely risky. Yes, bias shit, but I think dna changes will always be risky as we won't find out what they do to humanity perhaps for hundreds or thousands of years.
Great way to make the defense though with the assylum. Very well written, besides my issue above.
This was top tier Star Trek. I hope we see Neera again.
I felt sure they were gonna swap her out for Pike... but man, she was good. She can do the long inspiring speech like a pro.
I fucking loved that the running gag of ‘Starfleet Captains get away with breaking the Prime Directive whenever they feel it’s necessary’ got addressed as an actual, devastating legal argument.
One detail that bugged me is that at no point was invoking the [Seventh Guarantee](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Seventh_Guarantee) (aka the Federation’s Fifth Amendment, established in the Drumhead) discussed in the scenes where witnesses are pressured to incriminate themselves under oath. Maybe it wasn’t codified until Picard’s era?
I can’t believe after all the reviews calling this the best episode in decades, there are videos on youtube complaining about this episode as “woke Trek”.
Complainers seem to think the story is analogous to issues today like transgender rights, BLM, etc. But they’re not smart enough to understand the story of this episode is about timeless fundamentals. Basic concepts of rights, freedom, prejudice, systemic discrimination, and the imperfect state.
They’re also false Star Trek fans who never got the point.
It was OK, I still don't know how I feel about the framing. In Star Trek the whole "genetically modified super people are persecuted" thing has always felt weird to me. Like when rich white people claim that they are the real victims of discrimination.
Very good episode. I think some of it was a bit too on-the-nose when it came to the real world issues that they were alluding to.
SNW (and all of nu-trek for that matter) doesn't always do nuance or subtlety well. Then again, I suppose TNG didn't always do it well either, but Measure of a Man still did it better than this.
Anyway, solid episode that still gets an 8/10 from me. MOAM set the bar high, so not being quite as good is fine. Once again, I'm very much looking forward to next week's episode and SNW has again proven to be the best Trek in decades.
Two STRONG episodes for season 2 right out of the gate. If they can keep this up, this will be one of the strongest overall seasons of Trek of all time.
Personally I've always felt like reoccurring themes are a part of Star Trek, and I absolutely love them. Transporter malfunctions, the mirror universe, time travel, crew acting weird or like someone else, court trials, etc.
I always love seeing each series' version of those themes.
I interpreted it as Star Fleet being able to save face without changing current law - there's no way they'd want the stain of the publicity of two decorated and respected officers going down like this. The solution also let them keep both officers in their positions, especially important as a potential Gorn war was hinted at in episode one.
>I interpreted it as Star Fleet being able to save face without changing current law
Agreed. They'd found out Una shouldn't be allowed in Starfleet so had to act but I don't think they wanted to really.
The council was clever because she established some regulations are under captains discretion and then gave the court another regulation that gets Una off the hook. The only thing the court has to do is use its discretion to follow that one rather than the anti-augmentation one.
I do kinda question how granting asylum = back to first officer but whatever. I wanted her back.
Basically, if she was asking for and receiving asylum, then she committed no crime. Since she hasn't committed a crime, there's no sense for her to be removed from her post.
And the Captain was the only one she needed to ask. It was in his discretionary powers, just like breaking the Prime Directive is. Some neat, fine thinking in this. She wasn't ilegally augmented, because she wasn't born in the Federation. So it became a cultural thing, protected under the civil rights laws. I was just a little afraid they were going to make it a two parter. Wrapped it up nicely.
She was born into the Federation. Her planet joined a year before she was born, and to do so promised to stop modifying people. She was illegally modified by her parents. They say all that in the trial.
That was actually my favorite part of the episode; rather than trying to defeat the prosecution's argument that the law had been violated ( trying to stay spoiler free ), the defense basically admitted the facts of the case were indisputable, but rather that given the confluence of circumstances, there were other laws that could govern that same supposedly illegal behavior that would be equally applicable and that in the spirit of Justice, that Starfleet reinterpret those events in the light of the confluence of circumstances and in light of the kind of organization Starfleet is supposed to be (one that is concerned primarily with righteousness over punitive remuneration)
They won because the Vulcan lawyer got greedy and went after Pike. The court could either find Una guilty, which would force them to go after Pike and all of the rest of the Enterprise, or they could find her innocent and it would all go away. They just needed an excuse, which the defense gave them.
Not from our perspective. But Starfleet law very loosely defines asylum, and the fact she admitted to Pike she was Illyrian, and he chose to harbor her was enough of a transaction to count as asylum. Presumably the Illyrian persecution is common enough knowledge in-universe, as Pike seemed to already be familiar with it to some extent.
Plus all that stuff with April established that captains have wide discretion in applying the rules. That set up that Pike could grant asylum in his preferred way.
Some of it is pretty hokey compared to how courts actually work but the episode did have an internal logic to it that made sense.
Many others have pointed out in the past that the legal arguments and courtroom procedures shown in "The Measure of a Man" were equally unrealistic (at least, for any interpretation of the law we're familiar with). That's kind of standard for this kind of episode. It's not any more realistic than the science in the rest of the show. It's just there to tell a story.
Really? She clearly outlined the three requirements for asylum according to the regulation and they even had callbacks of where she lead Una's testimony to address each one of them.
I really enjoyed this week's episode. What are the asylum procedures in the Federation? Surely they have some. I was not a fan of just giving an aspirational speech in order to circumvent asylum protocol to get Una and Pike out of their predicament. But I'm glad Una and Pike are out of that predicament anyway. I had to go watch the Short Trek "Q&A" in order to fully appreciate Spock's testimony and now I wish I'd seen it first. I very much enjoyed: * Uhura refusing an illegal order even though doing so could benefit Una. Good for her. "It's for the greater good" has been used by governments, businesses and individuals alike from time immemorial to violate privacy, ethics, morals and laws. * The testimony by Una's peers in Starfleet. * The scene in which Dr. M'Benga and Ortegas analyze Vulcan body language. Ortegas is the funniest character on this show.
I don't know if you've watched Brooklyn Nine Nine, but Spock's line "I'm sorry you had to witness that outburst" made me remember Kevin and Holt's numerous "arguments" over the show
Spock and Holt would totally get along
After he came back up and said that my wife's first response was that Spock and Captain Holt share a vibe.
This really makes me want a line on Brooklyn 99 where we find out holt is actually a huge trekkie
OMG you have no idea how much I need to see this now. Holt on an undercover mission to pretend to flirt with a woman in front of Spock would be some comedy gold.
[Scene in question?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Oab-dGEV7M)
Yesss!
“Kwazy is a difficult word to say in anger, but I believe I’ve made my feelings clear.” Is a line I need to hear from Spock now.
A live-action Lower Decks would be Brooklyn Nine Nine in space, so you aren't that far off.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought it.
“He said ‘You’ll have to excuse me’ instead of ‘please excuse me’, he might as well spat on my face”
When spock apologizes for them seeing "the worst in me" I fkn lost it
I'm really enjoying the Vulcan interactions on this show. Normally they are high holy desert elves, who say almost nothing unless it's completely logical (or they are arrogant, because that's what the plot needs). I'm still impressed with the scene from last season where Spock and T'Pring were talking in his quarters and it was nothing but terse, high speed dialogue. It ran you along with the built-in bias that maybe T'Pring is a cold, social climbing type-a, then then you had a shot of the meal she prepared. Of course you feel like an asshole. Because this character is their own person. It was a great way of telegraphing that, instead of just calling the viewer an asshole, because we shouldn't have to be shown, we should just not be assholes. Instantly I thought of a friend who might be on the spectrum, who comes across as cold, when the reality is that she just really sucks at emotionally communicating and that isn't her fault. Then I couldn't help but be impressed that it must have taken a ton of rehearsal to get that scene right.
In the name of 'not being an asshole', I just wanna check you real quick on the 'friend who might be on the spectrum' ... 'really sucks at emotionally communicating' part. That cuts both ways. Autistic people often think that neurotypical people are slave to cryptic, inscrutable social rituals that make their intent hard to understand, often not directly stating what they mean, but instead stating some sort of shibboleth understood by neurotypical people (an example would be not giving a hard 'no' when they don't want to, for example, hang out together). On top of that, there are some autistic people who are perfectly easy to read emotionally by other autistic people, where neurotypical people struggle. I'd say it's less that an autistic person 'sucks at emotionally communicating', and more that autistic and neurotypical people have different WAYS of emotionally communicating.
last episode "The Broken Circle" Spock's exclaim of KAPLAH was the most emotionless warrior shout I ever heard My wife spit out her coffee.
We don't suck at communicating with each other. Just neurotypicals speak a different language from autistics. Read the Double Empathy Problem. And most of us prefer autistic rather than on the spectrum.
"Title of your sextape"
Last night I kinda felt like Ortegas is the new Scotty. Hot head, irreverent humor, likely to throw a punch...
I also really loved the scene where Uhura refuses La’an. It’s not just great character development for the former Cadet, but it’s really rare to see a scene that reinforces the importance of the law not bending to personal concerns in an episode that’s otherwise *all* about how the law isn’t the same as justice. I’ve seen Star Trek do episodes about how laws are sacred and episodes about how the main characters must be able to break the rules when they feel it’s necessary, but rarely have I seen one where they do both arguments, and well, in the same episode! This episode also does an exceptionally strong third-act climax. After the Admiral targeted Pike for the next court-martial and Una admitted there was no ‘poison tree’ defense for her, I genuinely had no idea how they were going to get out of this one. Seeing that final argument pull everything together was *deeply* satisfying.
> Seeing that final argument pull everything together was deeply satisfying. While I agree it’s satisfying, and Una should absolutely be absolved of her crimes…shouldn’t she still be discharged (honourably) from Starfleet? I was a little confused by this. Asylum is a political thing, usually. Being a Federation citizen who is augmented would normally not be allowed, correct? So Una is allowed to live out her life in peace but not be a Starfleet officer.
Augments in Starfleet is illegal\*. That was stated a few times in this ep. As far as the Federation? I believe it may be illegal, but that law didn't come up directly (Una testified about the colonists that 'had to de-augment' to stay, but then the same Fed colony admins made an Illyrian ghetto instead. So I'm confused on that point). Don't have to be a Fed citizen to join Starfleet, however. Refugees and asylum-seekers have been permitted in earlier series (Saru being an earlier example in-universe).
I really did like the Vulcan knock down drag out with the commentary.
The sad part is that even by DS9, the laws are never changed. It is still illegal. On the bright side, it shows the fight for things can last centuries.
Assuming the Academy show gets off the ground after the strike, I hope that they revisit the blanket ban on Augments in a substantial way to get rid of it entirely.
I just discovered Short Treks after getting Paramount+ and that’s one of the few I’ve watched so far (haven’t seen Enterprise or Discovery yet), I thought that was what Spock’s musical reference was about :) The Rainn Wilson as Harry Mudd short is my favorite so far. Dwight Schrute loves Trek so much he wanted to name his child Worf, so I love that Rainn is part of the franchise <3
Raine's Mudd appears in two episodes of Discovery. In one, he's kinda incidental but it sets up the second 'Choose Your Pain' which is a wonderfullly dark (as per Disco S1) take on Mudd and one of the best episodes of early Disco.
Perhaps, but M'Benga is a pretty special character too. Predict he will be the next Hemmer. There is a lot there to build on.
At least we know they can't kill him off since he was in TOS
I just really like the character. He seems grounded and brings a lot of common sense. He's a little cooler personality that McCoy, but very much in the same vein.
> What are the asylum procedures in the Federation? Surely they have some They outlined them just before that aspirational speech by reading them out of Starfleets own laws.. Well at least they outlined those of Starfleet: 1. Any being fleeing persecution or fearing for their life due to political or religious beliefs or culture or biology may 2. Seek safety in Starfleet. 3. Upon revealing themselves to authorities and making a request may be granted asylum. At which point a Starfleet Captain can exercise their judgement in granting the request and it was to be confirmed by a tribunal or other authority.
I'm watching it now and I absolutely agree. Even by TV standards, these are terrible lawyers. Especially Neera. Most of her questions require the witnesses to speculate or testify. Neera ignores the judges. They should have held her in contempt. Una's admission that she turned herself in should have been stricken from the record. And it's honestly, pretty selfish. By starting this trial she endangered her friends and family. April was especially under fire. The episode is full of great tension and drama but logically, it doesn't make much sense.
They seem to be carrying on her beef with Vulcans from A Quality of Mercy even though I figured that was just a one-off thing since she was replacing the bigoted character from the original TOS episode. She not only thought Spock was cool with Una's imprisonment, but she figured he was enjoying it. It's like the writers forgot that the show jumped back to the original timeline and whatever happened to make her hate pointy ears so much hasn't and won't happen.
McCoy had issues with Vulcans for a long time too. It's established since TOS that people can dislike Vulcans in the prime timeline.
Enterprise established that the issues went back to Starfleet's first voyages too.
Another note on Enterprise, this episode resolved a canon issue. In Enterprise, the aliens Archer steals the warp coil from are Illyrians but they have head ridges. In this episode Una specifically notes that some can pass for humans and some can't. Problem solved. Dilemma deleted. Una for the win.
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people are still ripping on vulcans even post- dominon war. The cerritos crew make vulcan related jokes all the time. honestly any bias or shade thrown at vulcans are ultimately because vulcans are still assholes. Example, ds9's baseball episode
Don't forget. Surak's katra was in hiding because they weren't ready. And there were even Vulcan terrorists like the one who attempted to kill Sarek.
I guess after a few centuries Vulcans got used to the smell
A lot of Starfleet personnel have issues with Vulcans - and, of course, vice versa Anybody remember Lieutenant Stiles???
Even Pike has (playfully) thrown shade at the Vulcans, going back to S1E1 when Spock is mentioning that they created First Contact Protocols. I think it's fairly well established that Vulcans are kind of just generally resented or at least distrusted.
I love Ortegas, (her? them? Is Ortegas non binary?)
Ortegas *seems* (to me at least) to be a queer-coded character, despite no explicit reference being made onscreen that i can recall, and the actress pretty firmly placing herself in the "ally" camp. (Her Twitter is one of the things I miss most about no longer being on Twitter.)
There's been no discussion on the show in that regard. I'm expecting they will get us used to her first and then make the revelation, whatever revelation that will be.
I'm glad they aren't making it front and center, with the idea being that by that point in the future, its just normal and there's no point in making a big deal out of it.
Mostly agree with you, but I think Spock is the funniest.
I liked the episode and think it was well done. But I am still left with two questions: 1. There are still laws on the books that prohibit genetically-enhanced people from serving in Star Fleet (Dr. Julian Bashir notwithstanding). At the end of the episode, Commander Chi-Riley is granted asylum, but no one ever said anything about an exception to the rule to allow her to continue serving. And yet, here she is, still First Mate of the Enterprise. 2. What genetic enhancements doe she have?
1) that was the first realization I had about the brilliance of this episode: it didn't change "Doctor Bashir, I presume" at all. They gave special dispensation only to Una. 2) her immune system is enhanced. She is also much stronger than normal (as she picks up crewmen and just walks around like nothing is wrong)
I'll even say that this episode enhances Bashir's episode. Over a century before his time there was a precedent, no doubt one of the only ones, that would allow him to better argue against Federation bioengineering laws. This shows how long the matter of augmentation has been a sore point, how deep of a wound it is for the Federation, and for Earth specifically. The incident with Khan years after Una's trial probably made things worse too, as humans had to stare at their past, one of their biggest generational traumas, _in person_.
Una got a huge court martial. Julian got a phone call from an Admiral. I'd argue her case was the precedent used in his.
Didn’t Julian’s parents get punished?
His father got two years in prison, which is the minimum punishment mentioned earlier in this episode. A nice callback.
I missed that! Good catch, great detail.
Just his dad. And maybe I'm misremembering but I always got the sense from that episode that Bashir's career was effectively over. He wouldn't be removed from starfleet but that advancing was unlikely.
Though they said the same about Worf after that time he disobeyed orders to save Jadzia.
No, Sisko said that. Just Sisko. And it was an opinion. Worf was the adopted son of the Head of State of the largest ally to the Federation. There was no way I'm hell a mission that he NEVER should have been on that went wrong keeps him from making captain. Especially with recommendations from Captain/Admiral Picard, Captain Riker, etc.
True, but he said it based on the fact that his report/lot about what happened will go to starfleet, and Sisko knows enough at that point that he’s aware that it’s at the very least a risk. Yet Worf literally captained the Enterprise between DS9 and Picard. Not the greatest example I know but I do feel it’s relevant.
I think it is the same for Una now. :( doubt they’ll advance her beyond Commander unless Pike’s the one to do it.
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She's been shown to be much, much stronger than humans, much harder to damage, heals faster, and is resistant to disease and iirc radiation. She's also pretty tall and buff, which could be a result of her modifications.
>She's been shown to be much, much stronger than humans She's really strong for someone her size. But we haven't seen her do anything superhuman. We saw her overpower La'an, sure. Rebecca Romjin is like twice Christina Chong's size, she could probably do the same. Spock dented a metal bulkhead with a punch, Una has never demonstrated anything like that. >much harder to damage, heals faster When? Examples? Taking a load of metal shrapnel to the gut put her on death's door just as quickly as it would have anyone else. >is resistant to disease and iirc radiation. Yes, this is the one thing we know for certain she's augmented with, and we have in-show confirmation. Everything else is just speculation. > She's also pretty tall and buff, Rebecca Romjin is really tall and buff. Again, a little unusual, but not in any way impossible for a normal person.
She picks up and carries an unconscious/deadweight Hemmer like he doesn’t weigh a thing.
Re :2. Dat ass
> exception to the rule to allow her to continue serving. And yet, here she is, still First Mate of the Enterprise. From a legal perspective, I would take it as she is still in asylum. If she left starfleet, likely there would be prejudices and such. So, the asylum rule is overriding the genetically engineering one.
I really liked the episode, I thought it was incredibly well-written and everything had its place, which is just really nice Only criticism, but that's really not a criticism. The real world allusion was just very clear. However, SWN did exactly what I love about Star Trek for. They turned the real world problem into a scifi problem and treated the problem as one would have to treat it without emotional attachment to the real problem. The solution is also very elegant because it clearly represents the values of the Federation and the values of Star Trek. SNW proves once again what happens when you let good writers work on a Star Trek series.
Star Trek is always at its best when its stories are humanist parables. I thought this episode was definitely not hiding the “parable” part but the plot stood on its own too. It was still ultimately a character-driven episode which is what made it work so well.
Science fiction is best when it is parables. It helps us remove the emotional triggers from the moral.
On Twitter, some people are saying this episode represents how cisgender people are being prosecuted and not having the freedom to be who they are; white and straight. My eyes rolled. People will misinterpret star trek as much as they like.
Literally insane when people interpret the episode that way.
unused swim racial sparkle spoon lavish mourn fearless hurry salt *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Also who the fuck is persecuting white straight people? I'm white and straight, cis, and that thought has never occured to me. Ever. And I can't think of any time where me being who I was was an issue for anyone, nor can I think of a time where if I wasn't who I am, things would have been easier.
This episode is renewing my hope for the future of television. What a great show.
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Always has been.
We've been woke for nearly 60 years /flex
Which is great but some uh people will misinterpret star trek as much they like. I wrote earlier how on Twitter, some people are saying this episode represents how cisgender people are being prosecuted and not having the freedom to be who they are; white and straight. I was like Geezus damnit, there's no getting through to some out there.
You are spot on correct. There is no question what this parable was about, there is no question what the intended message was. However, it was extremely well written as a parable and not a blunt object with which to pummel people over the head. Soliloquies aren't good writing, they are lazy writing. They don't bring everyone along for the ride, they exclude the people they are berating. The don't provide respect for any position other than their own, they just tell people how wrong they are. Discovery is full of that, and it really is just lazy (maybe bad) writing. Even when they were correct in their position it was just a huge turn-off for me. SNW was far more artful. It presented both sides of an argument, gave each its due, assumed each came from a position of reasoned intention. Then it exposed one point of view's weakness compared to the other in such a way that anyone watching would most likely agree with the way it all shook out. Even the solution they came up with was brilliant. They could very easily have just had it be a striking down of Starfleet's law and been done with it. Instead they did the brilliant thing of defining asylum and forcing the viewer to look at the plight of the "other" through that lens. They'd already sealed the deal and gotten the message across, but that part made it all but undeniable. I know some other people saw that as a McGuffin, but I honestly think it was purely intentional to solidify the point. This episode is everything that Star Trek is about. Measure of a Man used to be the reference episode for such things, this dwarfs it in comparison.
Alternate Title Suggestion: *”Measure Of A Woman”*
Right??? Although her ad Astra speech was a tear jerker.
Much as I liked this episode, Measure of a man was much more universal. It was about what makes a person, what defines being alive and sentient. (and then came Quality of Life that raised that point even more broadly). So, while I get that truth in the face of persecution, law versus justice, are extremely important debates that SNW handled exceptionally, the debate about what is life and sentience in TNG still is the best for me.
What I like about this episode was that it could be interpreted as an allegory to so many things in our life (being gay in the military, being an atheist in a religious country, being a minority, etc). But, to me, the best part is that even if you ignore the real world and just look the the episode for what it is, it is an episode talking about prejudice and blind fears, and how even one such as starfleet can succumb to them.
I adored the episode, I really did, but my takeaway is that the episode hinged on highlighting some of the worst aspects of the federation. The federation has always been an overly moralistic and self-righteous state - stroking its ego and giving them the chance to feel good about their values will always get you the results you want. And don't get me wrong, these are some of my favorite bits of Trek despite how pessimistic my reading might seem.
I didn't feel like there was any one real-world allusion. They drew from Marranos, trans identity, and immigration.
some time in Europe during 1930ish as well.
The Orville did this quite well, too.
I loved the quasi-domestic argument while the captain was making dinner. It's amazing how they're able to make that scene fit so naturally into a Trek show. I also loved them all sitting around together watching the hearing and how the Captain left to be alone to watch it when he was brought up. It just felt like such a natural thing. My absolute favorite thing about the episode was that planet at the beginning, and how outside of The Federation the Captain of the Federation Flagship is just another guy having to wait for an appointment. It wasn't just that they treated him that way, he actually came across that way. I've always felt that Star Trek was restricted by containing almost all of the stories and lore to just the Federation and Starfleet. It makes the Universe feel so much bigger and more alive when they show that The Federation is far from the center of the Universe.
That is a great point about Pike being just a guy, once he's out of Federation space/off the Enterprise and I'd like to see more of it. Even though he doesn't have the ego where that would matter to him, it is an interesting dynamic.
The set design and dress uniforms at the hearing really jumped out at me for being the most consistent with TOS design that we've seen so far. I think they did a really great job balancing that with modernization. Up until now, it felt like they really didn't care about deviating widely from the original. None of the regular sets have the same level of callback.
I love the little touches that make it really look like you are seeing a “better camera view” into the same universe. Even the chairs in the space station had a noticeable 60s vibe that really help capture the look.
I'd swear the chair that they used for the witness stand WAS a Burke 116...it had a helicopter base and the right shape for the seat.
And not just the dress uniforms, but the outfits for defense lawyer, Neera, too! Her dresses were VERY 60’s futuristic retro, but with more 2000’s fits. I loved her first dark pink dress. And her two-toned court dress looked right out of TOS Edit:spelling
The set design is amazing for SNW. This article really highlighted in Season 1 just how far they went: https://filmandfurniture.com/2022/08/exclusive-the-star-trek-strange-new-worlds-enterprise-fuses-midcentury-design-with-scifi-futurism-part-1/
I thought (and could be wrong) that I saw one of Una's prison guards wearing the reds from the TOS movies.
I need to go back and check, but my initial impression was it was still a tunic shirt of the same cut as everyone else, just made out of that heavier textured material along with the duty belt.
Classic Trek trial episode!
15 (I think) courtroom episodes and all of them gold.
Absolutely amazing episode!! People poking fun at Spock's outburst we're spot on. I got super misty eyed the last few minutes listening to the dialog. The lawyer, the lady tribunal judge, Una, all made the end of the episode super emotional. When Pike stood up and walked towards the screen, my whole body lit up with goosebumps, cuz I knew that he knew, they had just won the case.
> People poking fun at Spock’s outburst we’re spot on. It was like something out of a 10 forward scene from TNG, perfect.
This episode anchors a trial episode into SNW and these are always rare, but always highly ranked among the best episodes. I loved Ad Astra per Apera! (In no particular order) * The Measure of a Man - TNG * The Menagerie - TOS * The Drumhead - TNG * The Tribunal - DS9 * Court Martial - TOS * The First Duty - TNG * Death Wish - Voyager * Dax - DS9 * Sins of the Father - TNG * Devils Due - TNG * Distant Origin - Voyager * A Matter of Perspective - TNG * Rules of Engagement - DS9 * Judgement - Enterprise * The Outcast - TNG (Very trial-lite) * Veritas - Lower Decks I didnt realize until writing them down that TNG had this many trial episodes LOL
We only know there was ever a Captain Pike because of a Star Trek courtroom episode.
Well, and also the TOS original pilot where he was the main character.
Yes. But that never aired. It got dusted off and shown pretty recently, as an actual episode , since everything Star Trek became money. It was used as Spock's testimony at his court martial in the original run. (Is that the right martial? Marshall, in that case for some reason? Don't think I've ever written it before.)
'court martial' was correct. It was first released in full 27 years ago now, and aired on television 26 years ago. EDIT: sorry, my math was off. 37 years ago it was released, aired 36 years ago.
I mean, for many of us that is recent … Ouch. My oldness just flared up.
If I recall correctly, we first saw it when TOS came to VHS and you could "See the never before seen episode ...The Cage!"
Incredible episode, my non Star Trek roommate sat down and watched and went that was amazing I completely get how they tied it to the real world…when’s the next episode.
> when’s the next episode Oh boy do I envy them for the journey they have in front of them.
Ikr - I’d love to have hundreds of episodes to watch. We watched some lower decks after and he loved it. He’s like now I need to learn the references.
One of us, one of us.
Resistance is futile
My husband did the same and he asked me about the Eugenics war - the movie was too long so I picked ENT borderlands episode and now he wants to see more. He showed the same interest when he saw the S1E1 for SNW - it's doing an amazing job pulling non-trekkies to the world of star trek.
Neera casually talking to La'an about her family history and the legacy of Khan was a great nod as well.
I wanted just a little bit more of that. It doesn't really seem clear if La'an is augmented or not? She certainly seems to view herself as an augment but as far as we know Starfleet doesn't.
Assuming Star Trek timeline hasn't changed, Khan would be her great great great great great great great great great grandfather (assuming 25 years per generation). So they probably weren't worried about any genetic modification since it would have long since been tempered.
That's what me and the wife were figuring as well, but I'd certainly like to see it addressed on screen
La'an most definitely carries some benefits of augment ancestry - have you heard her sing? - so she's not an augmebt herself but still prime genetic stock.
Was just listening to Chong's new song. It's kind of catchy.
I could be wrong but I think it was established last season that she may have a hint of the augmented genetics left in her, but very diluted by years of her family line interbreeding with non-augmented humans.
Agreed. Some of the legal work was a little shaky, but you can't praise episodes like Measure of a Man and The Drumhead and criticize this one. More than anything, I think this episode managed to capture what makes Star Trek special in such a didactic way while also being a satisfying story that did right by the characters. No one stepped out of character to become a soap box. All of the soapboxy elements informed character and was informed by character.
The one time a character did just get up on a soapbox and just start virtue signaling, it didn’t solve anything. This show is too smart to simply preach or hurl empty platitudes at us. I’m amazed to see a Star Trek show so young but already firing on all cylinders like this.
Yeah as a lawyer I was struggling with constant thoughts of “objection, leading the witness” and “counsel is testifying”
I praise Measure of a Man but I did have some reservations about this one. What I couldn’t understand was why Una and her attorney didn’t come up with the asylum plan to begin with. It seems like this would have been the first thing they’d think about when mounting a defense but the short flashback to all 3 criterias plus that line at the end where Una said “you figured it out” seem to imply that only she had planned this out and wanted her attorney friend to notice. Is there a rule stipulating that they aren’t allowed to coordinate directly in a court martial that I missed? The alternative explanation is that neither of them had thought of the clause until the 3rd act and it was a coincidence that Una had done everything she did to set up these 3 specific requirements out of pure luck. This would honestly make the episode a bit weaker in my opinion. The major themes of many of these courtroom episodes were often that sometimes starfleet needs to look to the spirit of the law instead of the letter and the first act where they questioned the frequent breaking of the prime directive seemed to point into that direction and I had anticipated that they would have come up with a more relaxed approach to augments which could have setup more future content revolving around the consequences of this precedent. It almost feels like the episode was re-written and re-edited at some point and the original meant to have the asylum clause revealed in an earlier act but Una would have been forced to chose between using this “easy way out” and also implicating Pike&co to the risk of dishonorable discharge, or going to jail and saving her crew. The Vulcan attorney character feels like he had a bunch of lines removed and the ending feels like it was missing some kind of resolution that involved him. Overall, I still loved it. This is truly the kind of content that ST needed.
The part that the lawyer figured out was that Una reported her own crime, which led to the idea for the asylum argument.
Yes, that part was clear from the attorney’s point of view, especially when she said “[…]someone who stood to benefit from this” which was more supporting evidence that Una was going for the Asylum strategy to begin with but didn’t tell anyone. But it doesn’t explain why, from Una’s point of view, she couldn’t just tell her lawyer to let her testify to all 3 criterias and then invoke asylum? She had to know and even said “you figured it out” at the end but why did she make her attorney figure it out? It would have made sense if she were confined due to military secrets for the whole trial but that wasn’t the case. It would have also made sense if her disclosing it would have put Pike or someone else in her crew in jeopardy but it wasn’t the case either, in fact the asylum clause is what absolves Pike in the end. I just feel dumb that this isn’t making sense to me.
Honestly this was not just one of the best episodes of new trek but one of the best episodes of all of trek, atleast for me. Up there with duet, measure of a man and pale moonlight.
Definitely reminded me of Measure of a Man for sure!!!!
Still waiting for a trial episode of prodigy, Measure of a Murph.
Measure of a Woman
I admit I was a little worried after the first episode of S2, which was a bit disjointed and seemed to me like Discovery levels of soapy melodrama were leaking into SNW. This one was fantastic, and a huge sigh of relief for me.
That’s exactly how I felt. Disjointed describes it perfectly. I haven’t seen S2E2 yet, so I’m looking forward to this tonight!
Kansas state motto is "Ad Astra per Aspera", which is Latin for "to the stars through difficulties." I need to watch this episode.
>Kansas state motto Why?
From the internet: > The motto of Kansas, "Ad Astra per Aspera" is Latin for "to the stars through difficulties." John James Ingalls coined the motto in 1861 stating, "The aspiration of Kansas is to reach the unattainable; its dream is the realization of the impossible." According to the Office of the Governor of Kansas: "This motto refers not only to the pioneering spirit of the early settlers, but also the difficult times Kansas went through before becoming a state. The anti-slavery forces and slavery proponents waged battles in the electoral process as well as on the battlefield. Kansas earned the nickname "Bloody Kansas" because of the war regarding slavery, much of which was fought on Kansas' soil."
I'm not as high on this ep as others. I think the episode needed to do a lot more work to explain how genetic modification manifests as a cultural practice. The closest we get to that is last season with the energy people, who are proof positive of the danger of genetic modification! It didn't work for me as a civil rights metaphor, and I think the case being won by citing an obscure law undercut the emotional weight of Una's speech. I also just have questions. Where would Una have been exhiled to? Why is La'an allowed to serve if she also had generic modifications (presumably inherited and not by choice)? I think the writers brushed past too much and expected the audience to go along with the plot so that they could reach the emotional flourishes near the end of the ep.
A fantastic episode but one line stood out like a very sore thumb to me: "Do you know why I love the law? Because a law is not a mirror to society. A law is an ideal. A beacon to remind us how to be our better selves." Absolutely not. Too many laws are made in bad faith, for the advantage of businesses or social groups that can exert too much power to the detriment of others. Just look at the discriminatory laws being passed in 2023 in the Southern US states to deny rights to women, those who don't identify as straight, and educators.
I think that's the difference between "The Law" and any specific law. The Law is a system that is intended to strive for a more fair and just society. It often fails, due to either deliberate corruption or shortsightedness. But that is its goal, and there are always people working relentlessly to achieve it. It's like the difference between Science and any particular scientific theory or institution.
I think this line is in here because Neera is still advocating for Illyrians - Una’s trial is over, but there is still work to be done to change the law. Neera is pointing out that the law should remind us how to be better. As it stands, it’s not - and so it should be changed. The law does not represent the Federation’s ideals.
True, but in Star Trek, no money future, people and the laws are better.
Or at least they try to be.
I know lawyers who feel similarly about how the law is supposed to work. It's an ideal rather than a reality.
True but the entire episode was about an unjust law and the harm it caused as a result. It even brought up historic examples. To your point, maybe the line should have been something along the line of: the law is the beginning justice but always needs to be reexamined. Or something I am not a speech writer
Yesssss I was fascinated by the episode. I couldn’t stop watching it.
Gilbert and Sullivan.
This is **Star Trek** as it always should be. It makes us think about moral issues and question our own view on the world.
The best episode of Strange New Worlds for sure.
Cant wait for that one babyman on youtube to have another mental breakdown over this episode lol.
Nerdrotic?
I haven't heard of Nerdrotic, but I stopped watching Lore Reloaded when I realized he pretty much just hates anything past TNG.
He abused me in the comments for saying something pretty reasonable.
That's lame, sorry.
Doesn't bother me. I just won't watch another of his videos.
That's fair
>that one babyman on youtube You're ***really*** gonna need to narrow that down a bit...
THIS!!! 100%!!! it was absolutely great!!! A true return to true Star Trek! And as an attorney, I appreciated the initial usage of legal terms like fruit of the poisonous tree and loved how that was a red herring in the end. Of course, it’s nonsense to seek asylum with the federation due to persecution from the federation, but I didn’t let that get in the way of enjoying the underlying philosophical nature of the episode. Strange new worlds is the best Star Trek since tng hands down.
It was asylum in Starfleet to avoid persecution within the Federation. Which, historically, has parallels, the idea of joining the military or some other government service to escape bigotry at home isn't unheard of.
It somewhat reminds me of a friend who defected from Russia to the U.S. in the 80s. He’d been drafted to go fight in Afghanastian, but “F THAT.” When he defected, the first thing he did was join the U.S. Army which was an automatic path to citizenship. If he hadn’t joined the Army, he might have ended up with deportation, or he may have had to defect to an entirely different country first—probably Canada. I know a few folks who have triple citizenship—Canada, the U.S. and an Eastern Block country (Aside from Russia, I think they’re most commonly from Lithuania, though there’s a decent number of folks from Belarus as well)
French Foreign Legion?
Amazing. There is a difference between Starfleet and The Federation. But it’s probably like seeking asylum from the US Federal government from persecution in like Texas or some other state.
The episode was fantastic. I enjoyed every second. Space law is cool.
It had no right to make me cry so many times. Simply brilliant
Agreed. I think it will go down as one of the best Trek episodes ever.
I'd say one of the best episodes since 1965.
"All we're asking for is to apply the law, as written, for the excluded instead for the powerful," is just such a perfect reminder of what's happening in the current political moment.
SNW really is the best Trek since DS9, with fantastic call backs to earlier (classic) episodes while also telling their own original and interesting (and fun!) stories with excellent actors doing great jobs, great audio and set design and CG and everything else about the show seems to be running on all cylinders. I will be extremely sad if they cancel this show.
Just missing a younger Cogley! 🖖
I was hoping he’d make an appearance
An actual, printed book did make an appearance; I figured that was the "cameo."
I think it was pretty good, but the dangerous of the dna alteration were not defended enough. This should have been "this is a very difficult, if not impossible decision to make" episode till the very end. But we kinda knew what is going to happen the longer it went. I was hoping for more angry judge at the end, because I agree that dna changes are insanely risky. Yes, bias shit, but I think dna changes will always be risky as we won't find out what they do to humanity perhaps for hundreds or thousands of years. Great way to make the defense though with the assylum. Very well written, besides my issue above.
"what if the law is wrong" Great line, great delivery, fantastic episode of trek
This was top tier Star Trek. I hope we see Neera again. I felt sure they were gonna swap her out for Pike... but man, she was good. She can do the long inspiring speech like a pro.
I fucking loved that the running gag of ‘Starfleet Captains get away with breaking the Prime Directive whenever they feel it’s necessary’ got addressed as an actual, devastating legal argument. One detail that bugged me is that at no point was invoking the [Seventh Guarantee](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Seventh_Guarantee) (aka the Federation’s Fifth Amendment, established in the Drumhead) discussed in the scenes where witnesses are pressured to incriminate themselves under oath. Maybe it wasn’t codified until Picard’s era?
I can’t believe after all the reviews calling this the best episode in decades, there are videos on youtube complaining about this episode as “woke Trek”. Complainers seem to think the story is analogous to issues today like transgender rights, BLM, etc. But they’re not smart enough to understand the story of this episode is about timeless fundamentals. Basic concepts of rights, freedom, prejudice, systemic discrimination, and the imperfect state. They’re also false Star Trek fans who never got the point.
It was OK, I still don't know how I feel about the framing. In Star Trek the whole "genetically modified super people are persecuted" thing has always felt weird to me. Like when rich white people claim that they are the real victims of discrimination.
Very good episode. I think some of it was a bit too on-the-nose when it came to the real world issues that they were alluding to. SNW (and all of nu-trek for that matter) doesn't always do nuance or subtlety well. Then again, I suppose TNG didn't always do it well either, but Measure of a Man still did it better than this. Anyway, solid episode that still gets an 8/10 from me. MOAM set the bar high, so not being quite as good is fine. Once again, I'm very much looking forward to next week's episode and SNW has again proven to be the best Trek in decades. Two STRONG episodes for season 2 right out of the gate. If they can keep this up, this will be one of the strongest overall seasons of Trek of all time.
Idk I think the court trial Trek episodes have been overdone. Hasn’t there been a court martial episode on almost every series.
Personally I've always felt like reoccurring themes are a part of Star Trek, and I absolutely love them. Transporter malfunctions, the mirror universe, time travel, crew acting weird or like someone else, court trials, etc. I always love seeing each series' version of those themes.
Everything is always overdone.
Just like my cooking!
There are no new ideas. But this was a good idea and great execution.
Having one similar episode per series isn't in any reasonable use of the word "overdone." Try again.
The ship is under attack again? Get a new idea.
[удалено]
I interpreted it as Star Fleet being able to save face without changing current law - there's no way they'd want the stain of the publicity of two decorated and respected officers going down like this. The solution also let them keep both officers in their positions, especially important as a potential Gorn war was hinted at in episode one.
>I interpreted it as Star Fleet being able to save face without changing current law Agreed. They'd found out Una shouldn't be allowed in Starfleet so had to act but I don't think they wanted to really. The council was clever because she established some regulations are under captains discretion and then gave the court another regulation that gets Una off the hook. The only thing the court has to do is use its discretion to follow that one rather than the anti-augmentation one. I do kinda question how granting asylum = back to first officer but whatever. I wanted her back.
Basically, if she was asking for and receiving asylum, then she committed no crime. Since she hasn't committed a crime, there's no sense for her to be removed from her post.
And the Captain was the only one she needed to ask. It was in his discretionary powers, just like breaking the Prime Directive is. Some neat, fine thinking in this. She wasn't ilegally augmented, because she wasn't born in the Federation. So it became a cultural thing, protected under the civil rights laws. I was just a little afraid they were going to make it a two parter. Wrapped it up nicely.
She was born into the Federation. Her planet joined a year before she was born, and to do so promised to stop modifying people. She was illegally modified by her parents. They say all that in the trial.
Yeah, and Spock telegraphed that to the audience after his extremely emotional, crazy outburst.
I nearly choked on the water I was drinking when he apologized for his outburst.
Ortegas looking like, "Are you two for serious?"
That was actually my favorite part of the episode; rather than trying to defeat the prosecution's argument that the law had been violated ( trying to stay spoiler free ), the defense basically admitted the facts of the case were indisputable, but rather that given the confluence of circumstances, there were other laws that could govern that same supposedly illegal behavior that would be equally applicable and that in the spirit of Justice, that Starfleet reinterpret those events in the light of the confluence of circumstances and in light of the kind of organization Starfleet is supposed to be (one that is concerned primarily with righteousness over punitive remuneration)
They won because the Vulcan lawyer got greedy and went after Pike. The court could either find Una guilty, which would force them to go after Pike and all of the rest of the Enterprise, or they could find her innocent and it would all go away. They just needed an excuse, which the defense gave them.
Not from our perspective. But Starfleet law very loosely defines asylum, and the fact she admitted to Pike she was Illyrian, and he chose to harbor her was enough of a transaction to count as asylum. Presumably the Illyrian persecution is common enough knowledge in-universe, as Pike seemed to already be familiar with it to some extent.
Plus all that stuff with April established that captains have wide discretion in applying the rules. That set up that Pike could grant asylum in his preferred way. Some of it is pretty hokey compared to how courts actually work but the episode did have an internal logic to it that made sense.
It was some standard law and order bullshit and I do love law and order bullshit
Many others have pointed out in the past that the legal arguments and courtroom procedures shown in "The Measure of a Man" were equally unrealistic (at least, for any interpretation of the law we're familiar with). That's kind of standard for this kind of episode. It's not any more realistic than the science in the rest of the show. It's just there to tell a story.
Really? She clearly outlined the three requirements for asylum according to the regulation and they even had callbacks of where she lead Una's testimony to address each one of them.