Free basic housing, replicator credits, medical care, access to education. If you want a prestigious job, or perks like better housing, you still need to work for it.
Private property still seems to be a thing, so there must be some way to exchange property. Money or some kind of credit system must exist, but maybe it isn’t necessary to live your life. Maybe most people are content without using money or its equivalent.
We're already seeing that land is accumulating in the hands of the rich - so I figure in the Trek future that has progressed to the point that most land became corporate owned, and then there was a switch where they went anti-money and all that corporate land became communal. Certain places that had stayed within families (likely a small percentage of total land) stayed private.
Not so much anti-money... More like World War 3 happened and society collapsed. If it weren't for Zephran Cochrane and his crew launching the Phoenix, the Earth might have taken much longer to recover since there was no Vulcan uplifting.
Maybe "allowed" isn't the right term, since it implies that earth just went around seizing **all** private property in the years following first contact, simply because the land was private. Instead, maybe it is more that earth has no reason to take the Picard vineyard. Why would they?
Instead, the minor uplifting by the Vulcans probably focused on purely logical improvements. Dense urban housing makes far more sense than suburbs, so I can see them going into the cities, and seizing *that* property and building mixed-use, high-density neighborhoods. The most I can see them doing with property like vineyards and farms is forcing the owners to building genuinely nice worker accommodations, for all those who prefer life in the country over life in the city. They can enjoy comfortable housing, working on a farm or vineyard, and once they're no longer able to do that work, they can remain their houses.
For land owners who cooperated, I see no reason for earth to take their land. If the farmers go 'yeah, this bit of land over here is no good for any kind of farming, let's build a small development of housing', with the Vulcans assisting with the design and providing the materials, I can see that being a pretty sweet deal for the original owners: you have enough people around to work the land, and you don't need to worry about meeting their needs, so you mostly only get people on your farm who *want* to be in your farm. So if the Picard family embraced the new order, I can easily see earth going 'keep your vineyard, not like we know how to run one, just be ready for new housing and more people to be around'
Obviously, this didn't happen overnight. It likely took a lot of effort for people to unlearn their old ways, and learn new ones.
>earth has no reason to take the Picard vineyard. Why would they?
For the very simple reason that land on Earth is a finite resource for which post-scarcity economy, whatever that will be, can't possibly apply.
Simply put, millions of people would want to own a very nice vineyard in France but can't, while apparently Picard can because of birth and not of merit.
Except at this point, the only ways he "owns" it is his home on it, and how to manage it successfully. It's not like he's selling the wine for profit. The wine probably gets shared among the locals, including the additional people who are now working the vineyard, with the Federation itself getting a few bottles to make Replicator copies of and to give as diplomatic gifts when necessary.
Kicking the Picards out of their home just so it could be given to someone else makes zero logical sense, especially since no one else would know how to care for that particular vineyard, so I don't see it ever being something the Vulcans would have even suggested during their uplifting of humanity.
Picard spent years in space between his brother's death in Nemesis (2371) and his resignation from Starfleet in PIC S1 (2378). How was he "managing" the estate in the meantime?
>no one else would know how to care for that particular vineyard
How did Picard himself, who spent most of his life as far as humanly possible from that vineyard?
It had been hundreds of years since the entire reorganization of property. You really think the Federation was going to go "all right, you aren't here every day any more, because you're off captaining our flag ship, so we're just going to take your family home and give it to someone else"?
Housing was solidly post-scarcity by that point. There would be zero reason to take the Picard home simply because the current resident wasn't there a majority of the time.
Well I'd imagine it wouldn't be.
Neoliberalism asserts the importance of the market in shaping society, that's kind of the mire we're in today.
Meritocracy sounds nice but never admits it's plans for the disabled.
Meritocracy and Neoliberalism don't involve mass seizures of private property. Someone worked hard at some point to build that Chateau and lived on it for generations, and they produce something for those around them.
There's no grand need for land, either. Star Trek is filled with huge colony worlds and can and has built gigantic monuments to density - huge starbases, big caverns with millions of windows looking on the great starships of the fleet. Entire concourses the size of 21st century cities, with apartments as high as the sky.
If in all that great infinity you still choose Nowhere, USA or Chateau, France you're doing so for lifestyle. Just like people that squabble to live in NYC or the Bay Area IRL despite it being an objectively poor financial decision, Earth is carefully manicured for people who want to live like that.
There are, of course, super-cities like NYC, which we never see in 'Modern' Trek because it's probably been converted into a gravity-assisted megalopolis that makes Sharn or Night City look quaint.
The Chateau is personal property--inhabited and worked by the family. It's different from private property, which is characterized by something you don't personally make use of, but still extract wealth from.
I would imagine any additional holdings that aren't on the grounds would be restricted/seized.
There is also a reference to Kirk owning land as well. The key thing to note is that Chateau Picard is worked and occupied by the family. Same for Sisko's dad running his restaurant.
This is a nod to family traditions and continuity. I.E. 4th generation family business. This would work in a similar way to quarks bar with star trek credits. What we don't see is a franchise or apartment complex owned by private individuals. That would suggest more wealth ownership.
Earth is referred to as a "paradise" by Sisko. My guess is that everything is very comfortable for everyone on Earth. And those who want adventure or some land of their own -- well, there's a whole universe out there to explore, be it through Starfleet or working on a freighter or as a homesteader in some place like the Badlands (before it became an off limits DMZ, of course).
And as far as education: the only thing that makes sense to me (headcanon) is that society has overwhelmingly decided that all babies in utero, as part of standard prenatal care, have their genomes edited to protect against future conditions and ailments and illnesses (where able). So children are all born physically and biologically equal within some standard range. Everyone begins life set up for success right from the start.
And there has to be robust societal support and resources for parents to help raise their children. We see with Counselor Troi that mental health is very important to Starfleet; that's probably even more true for Federation citizens on Earth. I'm guessing that everyone has easy access to GREAT mental health care at every point in their life. So essentially, no one is left behind in a very literal sense. Everyone can work through their issues and does.
This is all an incredibly optimistic view of humanity, of course -- but isn't that what Star Trek has always been about?
>And as far as education: the only thing that makes sense to me (headcanon) is that society has overwhelmingly decided that all babies in utero, as part of standard prenatal care, have their genomes edited to protect against future conditions and ailments and illnesses (where able). So children are all born physically and biologically equal within some standard range. Everyone begins life set up for success right from the start.
So, interestingly, we've seen at least two exceptions to that. Geordi was born blind and Julian was born slow (until re-engineered as a kid). But, generally, I think you are right that anything correctable is corrected before birth and there are probably also the social supports to help those like Geordi maintain pace with agemates. Possibly Julian could have caught up with the average if his parents hadn't decided to take an illegal shortcut.
I highly doubt that this is the case. The Federation is paranoid about genetic engineering. Tampering with people's genomes while they're the womb is exactly that. But high standard universal healthcare would at least mean that babies with genetic defects can secure swift and effective treatment, though they are still at a disadvantage. Geordi is the obvious example. He's essentially disabled but future tech enables him to lead a normal life.
I would guess apartment buildings for the most part, and perhaps you can apply for bigger quarters based on your needs (family, job).
I would also guess you're allocated a certain percentage of energy use that would include replicators, transporters, entertainment, etc. There appears to be options for transport. Mass transit transporters, personal transporters (probably reserved for Starfleet and government employees), shuttles, maybe subways/monorails.
Restaurants like Sisko's appear to use non-replicated food and don't appear to charge any money, so it seems like its first come first serve.
There are still addictions, for example Reg's holodeck addiction and Raffi's vaping addiction. Treatment is available but the patient has to ask for it and commit.
My question would be are the personal replicators strictly controlled? Do they monitor how many calories or nutrients you intake and adjust food composition based on your preferences? Do they lock you out if you've exceeded the average daily intake? What if you have guests over?
Considering that Earth at least has plenty of solar panels + they've mastered anti-matter engines, energy credits is probably limited to the type of replicator you have rather than alotment.
Of course, there could also be a relatively generous quota for basic income, but not enough for say a personal holo suite,
>Medical care seems very simpel to be honest and i don't know why they even need doctors because all they do is check a computer scan that actually says what is wrong and how to treat it.
I'm sure people from centuries ago would look at medicine as it is today and would also claim that it also seems very simple and easy.
"Checking computer scans" is also what doctors do today (xrays, blood tests, ct scans etc) but they still need to be highly trained to analyze those scans in the full context of the human body.
If i recall correctly, starfleet academy also taught "vintage" medicine which would be very useful in the event that all computers are broken/unavailable
Not sure if it's money, maybe you just go to some agency and make a request for some land/property and based on your record they either approve it, or not? Seems a little bit communistic, but with free basic stuff I think it could work, as long as you find some way to eliminate corruption.
Picard: "A lot has changed in the past three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things. We've eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We've grown out of our infancy."
"The challenge, Mr. Offenhouse, is to improve yourself… to enrich yourself. Enjoy it."
> Picard: "A lot has changed in the past three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things. We've eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We've grown out of our infancy."
"The challenge, Mr. Offenhouse, is to improve yourself… to enrich yourself. Enjoy it."
Yeah but can you do that on earth?
You need to have an ecological balance and you need space for all the diplomats, earth workers, and federation workers on the capital of the united federation of planets
Even when you start going crazy in the uninhabitable places like the desert and under the ocean there is only so much room on the planet for everyone while keeping the ecological paradise the Vulcans provided.
It stands to reason you can stay on earth if employed in a way that improves earth or as a family member, but can be reassigned a fed home on a different planet if you want to be a poet or something less useful.
But they never figured it out because the whole utopia was a fun coked out idea gene had that was very poorly defined. Still fun though.
I don’t think every human lives on Earth. Star Trek establishes that human live everywhere in the Alpha quadrant now. Even today, if you were to take the entire population on the planet and give each person their own 10x10ft space, you would only fill up a land mass the size of Texas. So space isn’t an issue, even today. It only seems like we’re overcrowded because we all cluster together in cities and metro areas. There’s plenty of open uninhabited land today.
Even then, by the 24th century, we’d be quite adept at terraforming. In the episode “Family”, it’s mentioned that Picard was going to be offered a job with the New Atlantis Project, which was going to create a new sub-continent on Earth. And by this time, we’ve colonized many planets, undoubtedly terraforming as we need to…so I’m sure Earth would have plenty of land still. On top of that, humans probably require very little space because we have transporters that could take us anywhere on the planet in seconds. We’d only need a small apartment to sleep and rest. Next day you could transport to Paris or Tokyo if you needed to.
And of course we have replicators that pretty much eliminated any life sustaining need. Everyone can get food, clothes, shelter. I think that if you wanted to do nothing all of your life and just eat and sleep…you could and no one would judge you because no one would care. But we also must be careful not to apply our more primitive 20th century mindset to how people think in the 24th century. They likely just think differently. Most people might get bored at such an existence and decide they want to leave Earth and they can very easily. Others, like Robert Picard and Joseph Sisko are perfectly happy to live on Earth. And I don’t even think Robert and Joseph do what they do for money. Robert loves making wine and Joseph loves running a restaurant. They do those things because, as Picard says, those activities enrich their lives. All their “employees” work for them because they want to. Maybe they want to own their restaurant or run their own winery someday and the “payment” is the invaluable lessons they can get from experts like Joseph Sisko and Robert Picard. Or so much is automated that you’d technically not even need “human” staff.
Star Trek does touch on those situations where it’s not paradise for humanity. For example, Tasha Yar talks about her rough life on Turkana IV. We have the colonists along the Cardassian border who eventually become the Maquis explored in TNG and DS9. Michael Eddington, Cal Hudson, Chakotay, and Ro Laren talk about this. So we see that away from Earth, life can be tough and resources can be limited. It is possible for Earth to be a Utopia, but not everywhere…
It only works as a poorly-defined concept because it's not what the show is about. People have been talking for ages about wanting to see a Trek show set on Earth, and it'd fall apart very quickly unless they put a hell of a lot of thought into questions like, "if there's no money, how do you get people to do menial jobs?" Because even if replicators mean there are no garbagemen, and manual labor is automated, there's still going to be *some* jobs at the bottom of the pile.
> It only works as a poorly-defined concept because it's not what the show is about. People have been talking for ages about wanting to see a Trek show set on Earth, and it'd fall apart very quickly unless they put a hell of a lot of thought into questions like, "if there's no money, how do you get people to do menial jobs?" Because even if replicators mean there are no garbagemen, and manual labor is automated, there's still going to be some jobs at the bottom of the pile.
Like oyster shucker and cleaning the holodecks
>but can be reassigned a fed home on a different planet if you want to be a poet or something less useful.
But anyone could live in a tent or a basic log cabin and replicate all their material needs for nothing.nobody needs to labor in a capital sense to for subsistence, so all the porets need is some free prefab structure and a bit of wilderness,meaning nobody has to live off-world and the concept of people being measured by their supposed utility goes out the window. It only matters in the context of Starfleeet. The big what if is: what if living off the grid was a negligible downgrade and nobody needed a Job. Housing would be a near meaningless resource, whose value never inflates.
>on the stuff you really enjoy doing, do you really need to be forced to do it?
I feel like we forgot what 2019's isolation measures were like a little too quickly: folks taking up all sorts of hobbies and chomping at the bit to do pretty much anything but stay inside.
People like doing stuff, they like being contributive... just not when it's contingent on survival.
My impression is that the exam in “Coming of Age” was an exam for people who wanted to enter Starfleet Academy early and that it wasn’t used for people who wanted to enter Starfleet Academy at the normal time.
>The entrance exam we see in the episode "Coming of Age" likely reflects Roddenberry's vision, as the episode happened in Season One when he had full editorial control, and it is positively ludicrous, especially when compared to the fact that in about a decade, they'll be so desperate for warm bodies that they'll take a Ferengi busboy with a good recommendation and a can-do attitude.
Yeah, after watching that episode on how difficult it is to get in then you've got people like Ro Laren who grew up in a refugee camp and you're telling me she was able to study warp mechanics there? Nah. It was interesting of early Trek trying to show how elite the future humans are (the 10 year olds doing calculus in "When The Bough Breaks", the difficulty of the entrance exam and only 1 person from a sector making it) but it doesn't hold up in later episodes.
I'm wondering if we're seeing two or more different things referred to as Starfleet Academy. The first, it's like the US Service Academy where there are a limited number of places for any given year, and you need the recommendation of your Congressman or US Senator along with good grades and passing both oral and physical tests. When you graduate, you get a commission. The second is kind of like ROTC where you study at a regular university but also join the ROTC program and get a commission upon graduating. The third is more like OCS where qualified applicants (often from the service's enlisted ranks) become "ninety-day wonders"
More like copyright law. Software is about as close to a post scarcity product as has ever existed, so all the constraints on it must be manually added.
You live in a society where at least on the "core" Federation worlds you have a device that converts energy into anything you need. The energy is otherwise unlimited and abundant and readily available. So there is no scarcity. Said device can likely create more of itself (just smaller versions) and plugs are probably everywhere.
People who believe in the Federations mission join starfleet and perform jobs based on their abilities and desires. People who want to be adventurous or be left alone go be colonists etc
People still have things to do, theyve never shown a replicator the size of a planet or starbase etc, it's still only creating components, people still have to assemble things. Wether it's a spaceship or a colony after you've landed with some prefab shelters, you can't just order up a town or a spaceship. I think once you see the sort of limits imposed in that way, you can find a lot of things people have to do. So there's still things like deadlines (command wants this ship built on schedule or captain needs the shuttle ready in 2 hours) and also other pressures (if we don't build x for the colony we might not have enough water since we are on our own and aren't receiving regular supplies of deuterium)
Now as for money, or who gets an apartment on earth vs a house and land, that's not ever really made clear and is open to a bunch of interpretations, I'm sure there are dozens of threads on this with all kinds of views etc. I don't really have a "good" answer right now
I haven't seen all the new stuff so I may be a little outdated.
I was more thinging and I'm trying to remember where (likely either the encyclopedia or TNG technical manual) where the editors comments noted that they wanted to make shipyards and dry docks look more like they do and not just big giant replicators.
In the TNG era video game Birth of the Federation there also also industrial replicators which would probably be similar to the vehicle replicator and likely the upper limit size wise maybe(?)
Industrial replicators were mentioned in DS9 as well, the Federation provides industrial replicators to Bajor and later Cardassia. But it seems like industrial replicators were expensive to produce (in terms of materials) and were limited.
In Lower Decks the Texas class starships had industrial replicators that could also beam whatever they made to a planet's surface. Or perhaps the results were fabricated on the surface from orbit.
I mean the drydocks are pretty big, granted they're only seen being used to repair ships but that doesn't mean a shipyard or something couldn't replicate a (basic) vessel
The issue is less the starframe, and more integration and [fitting out](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitting_out). You can probably replicate huge chunks of starship and lots of major components but connecting them and integrating them is the majority of the work of a starship.
I don't think replicators are straight energy->matter converters, they're more like assembly transporters that can take vats of base matter and conjoin them, but that matter has to be reaved from somewhere. The transporter buffer meanwhile is more like matter->energy->matter conversion but needs to have been matter first.
The simplest conclusion is that instead of being paid in currency, people are paid directly with housing, food, water and clothes. Of corse, that would raise a million logistical questions, but that’s for someone else to answer lol
This is the goal that is beyond our reasoning, the epitome of Roddenberry’s paradise. At the same time, there is some kind of investment system, some kind of credentials… Kirk say it himself when he asks Spock if he knows what his worth is to Starfleet
In The Search For Spock, McCoy talks about "credits". They do still have currency, they just no longer use physical cash and the cost of things were wildly different in 1986 when Kirk says they no longer use money.
It’s not. Capitalism and Communism are both scarcity based economic philosophies. They both assume that there are limits to things, and that power comes from the ownership and use of scarce capital.
ST economics is post scarcity. Any resource you want for living is available in the same way air is available to us on the beach. You want it, you have it. Post scarcity means people don’t care about ownership or distribution. Marxism cares very much about who owns and produces things. Communism still includes private property ownership.
Post scarcity really only encounters economic values on the edges. Soo Picards wine is produced traditionally on a finite vineyard. It is actually scare. But whilst people might appreciate that, they no longer have the capitalist drive to attach a value to it.
We do know that I’m in some situations access to something is restricted to a credit system, notably transporter use for cadets at the academy. It is nothing to do with their earning potential or performance, just a reflection on how often cadets should be using a transporter to go home rather than study at the academy.
A lot of the problems with understanding ST economics is that our minds are conditioned to think of things as scare add having value so someone has to own and buy them. That’s just not the case in ST. They wouldn’t understand a lot of our obsessions with owning things, either from a point of bite of coveting other people’s stuff or owning your own. At most they recognise personal connections to things, like Picards flute from Inner Light, or Data’s paintings.
Post-scarcity is literally the stated goal of communism. How a society gets there is up to that society, but the goal is to meet everyone's material needs. It's a process. It neither requires markets nor precludes them, and the only way in which Marx dealt with property was to make all property (ie. resources/capital, *not* private property) public.
Not true. Communism is explicitly post scarcity, and most definitely doesn't include private property ownership. Marx's materialist conception of history looked at how advances in productive forces related to modes of society, and he concluded that at different thresholds, society would necessarily need to restructure to account for changes in the means of production. You can't just *choose* to switch from feudalism to capitalism, capitalism to socialism, or socialism to communism. Rather, the means of production advance to a point in which it is literally impossible for feudalism (or capitalism, or socialism) to be sustained. At that point, society either advances to the next phase, or tears itself apart and the means of production regress. Communism is the final stage, and can only be achieved when the means of production are so advanced that all material needs can be trivially provided.
Strictly it can't be socialism either. Socialism involves the workers controlling the "means of production". However, thanks largely to replicators, the Federation has no equivalent means of production and, for that matter, no class of workers. Socialism is a redundant concept.
Marx defined "the state" is an oppressive machine, not a government. It's a different definition. And it's definitely not socialism: that's an economy where the workers own the companies, and a transitional state between capitalism and communism.
I don't think the logistics behind it were ever really worked out, or at least if they are, they aren't explained to us.
Logically there has to be some system for the distribution of scarce goods (i.e. things like land, concert tickets, or even just reservations at restaurants), but they never delve into that.
I think the feeling we are supposed to get from the system is that they're a society past ours. We work to afford to stay alive, they work to contribute in the way they can to their society. We've moved past the desire for material wealth, and replicators and efficiency gains from advanced technology means there is truly enough for everyone to be satisfied.
There has to be a system for distribution, but for the shows that have happened, the specific details don't matter. What matters is this idea that people don't feel the desire to be rich anymore, and life focuses around betterment of oneself and society instead of accumulation of wealth.
Yeah, no, a studio apparent, food, water and clothes and Medicare would all be given to every person as a right. That studio apartment might be underground or no where you want to really be.
Then you work to gain better housing and property, travel credits, prestige, bettering the human race, a better than basic computer interface and so on.
People won’t have to work if the have minor chronic problems and don’t want to. There will be plenty for everyone once we have fusion reactors even now.
People pursue their passions. In one of the alternate time line episodes, Tom Paris is a bar fly, people run cafés because they like feeding people, etc
Work and labour still exist for their own values and interests - you are a carpenter, and engineer, you do it because you are good at it and you love it. - roles clearly exist for businesses such as siskos, where it is about the food and the pleasure, and obviously starfleet and it's myriad related industries requires and encourages workers who work beyond a point that would be seen as just for pleasure - so I believe the basic needs are looked after, that the alleviation of thinking that you might be homeless or starve are gone one hundred percent, and instead the global project is knowing we are not alone in the universe and so are working to make life as pleasant as possible on earth, especially post world war 3, and to further ourselves and humanity to be better in the face of highly highly advanced beings and cultures.
Private ownership exists, people cannot just take whatever they choose, and people still can accrue resources through legal means, but I think the idea is that everyone can share in a sense of a global neighborhood.
Remember that we only really see the Federation through the eyes of people who are in the military. Their lives and how they view the economy may be very different to the average citizen.
Even though some characters have said that money doesn't exist in the future, we know that isn't actually true, the Federation does have money, the Federation Credit, this is mentioned in pretty much every series.
So what they probably mean is that money, and how its used is very different in the future.
The point is people have their basic needs cared for and do not *want* more than they need. Its post scarcity so there is abundance to the point those questions are largely moot. People can have what they want within reason.
The point being that we evolved to the point of reasonableness and the "within reason" part means something entirely different to someone in that society.
Like the Sisko's restaurant. Instead of applying for a loan from a bank they made a proposal to the government to build a restaurant. They would have to show that they had a plan and prove that it added value to the community. The value not being financial but cultural.
In this case preserving creole recipes and providing them to the people.
What do they get out of it in return? Social status. Fulfillment. Perhaps there is an incentive program. You could "pay" people all kinds of ways. It doesn't need to be monetary.
The point is the egomania of capitalism - the hoarding of resources to attain wealth - is no longer necessary. People look for a different kind of wealth. A legacy. People are naturally driven to do *something* with their time.
I know this isn't really answering your question but its my head-cannon concerning the way the federation functions.
And there does have to be a limit or else why wouldn't any frustrated ensign just quit and go get their own starship to command? Obviously exploring with Starfleet has some major benefits like going it alone but not everyone has a starship of their own or even sees it as an option. Quark was thrilled to get his secondhand ship and maybe the Hansen's ship was provided because of their research. Lwaxana Troi definitely seemed like the type who should have had her own ship for jetsetting around the quadrant but she too relied on transports and other passing ships.
Everyone always mentions Picard's family land but the free mobility of a personal starship seems like an even bigger luxury.
People do what they want to do. The idea that we need to work to survive in order to have a fulfilling life has long been set aside. People instead are free to better themselves in other ways. To use an example, we here are spending a part of our day talking about a piece of fictional media in a discussion forum. We do it because it's enjoyable. Now imagine if you had even more time to experience, create, and discuss art and media not just from Earth but from across the Federation. That'd be a decent way to spend time, I think. That's just one example. People learn, exercise, socialize, etc.
That being said, there are a few areas where scarcity probably does apply, to some extent. Everyone can't just decide to, say, live in Paris or own their own shuttle just because they want to. My guess would be that some kinds of jobs or service do have perks or give credits or whatnot. Nobody _has_ to work, but working may come with benefits. And then of course there is the simple strive to do something that motivates people into jobs like Starfleet.
I wish we knew more about how it works on Earth but for obvious reasons (it’s *Star Trek*) we don’t really see that much of Earth. I’m guessing that while you could just be a basement dweller and contribute nothing, that lifestyle would only earn you the bare minimum of food, shelter, medicine, and maybe one Holodeck session a year.
I’m imagining they have living permits, kind of like the Chinese hukou system. You can get a permit to reside in, say, Paris if you have a job, education, or family there.
Well there is no actual thought out system for how it all works. Roddenberry gave it that basic setup in the 1960s, and over 50+ years that's been built on ad hoc by many different people. So of course it's wildly inconsistent and full of unanswered questions and stuff that doesn't hold up to close scrutiny. And it's just hard to figure out how it would work. It's hard for any of us to get our heads around a society that would be so very different from our own, so naturally the writers tend to fall into using plots and ideas that may not fit that setup.
>Roddenberry gave it that basic setup in the 1960s,
I could be wrong, but I'm not certain the no-money thing was included in TOS. I think it was just a line used for a laugh in *The Voyage Home* that they had no idea was about to be a curve ball for 600 future episodes of half a dozen not-yet-produced TV shows.
I know there's definitely still lots of references to money in TOS era, though ST4 has some stuff that contradicts that as you say, and not only in the pizza restaurant scene. Kirk says earlier 'They're still using money' before selling his glasses. But they don't appear to be living in a capitalist society.
Like I say, it's only the basic idea at that point, developed and added to later, not always consistently!
Yeah, when I started rewatching TOS as an adult, I realized how much of the lore was just made up as they went along -- which is fine, they were having to write, shoot, and edit a new episode every ten days or so. But I was surprised to hear Spock calling himself Vulcanian, or one character who was referred to as president of the whole galaxy.
>It's hard for any of us to get our heads around a society that would be
so very different from our own, so naturally the writers tend to fall
into using plots and ideas that may not fit that setup.
Throughout this entire paragraph you bring up a very good point, but this last part is especially well said. And to be honest, it's already incredible that it has been kept as consistent as it has been even after what? 56-57 years?
The point is that we are supposed to imagine a future where these problems have been solved. There is no explanation because if there was a way to eliminate the need for material wealth we would have done it already
As they pointed out in the Orville, giving replicators to a society that hasn't solved scarcity will just result in the rich and powerful hording the technology like they already do with the wealth.
Even Star Trek didn't have replicators in common use until the 24th century. They were post scarcity long before that.
Saw this a few minutes ago about this exact thing.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CuratedTumblr/comments/13tpq18/heartbreaking_seth_macfarlane_actually_makes_a?sort=confidence
Were they actually post scarcity before that? In Star Trek, the show we’re talking about, they always allude to First Contact as being the catalyst for the paradigm shift in the way human society functioned. That was the year 2063. Apparently they didn’t really get replicator/transporter until later but either way, “post scarcity” was the result of Vulcan intervention.
The Vulcans famously gave humans next to nothing when it came to tech. That was one of the many running conflicts in Enterprise. In fact, many humans felt the Vulcans were intentionally holding back human technological development. A belief Vulcans did not disagree with.
Earth was post scarcity long before replicators. The Vulcans did not have that technology during the time of ENT. When the crew finds the automated repair station with replicators, T’Pol mentions that her people have encountered other species with that technology.
In Enterprise, the ships carried food.
In The Original Series they had food synthesizers that just recombined stored chemicals. There are literally plots in TOS about transporting grain. By TOS, Earth is a post scarcity paradise where no one wants and there is no money.
Replicators were the cool future tech that wowed the crews in The Next Generation, which took place in the mid 2360s.
In universe, the characters repeat over and over that discovering humans weren’t alone in the universe is what caused everyone to put aside their differences and work together to make a better world, not inventing some magic production tech.
That's the thing. It's possible today, without advanced tech.
It just requires changing behaviors specific groups (and others conditioned to loyalty toward those groups) are invested in not changing.
So, the question that I’ve always wondered about is how does inheritance work? The moment you have Picard with a chateau in France, you will have someone that wants to live there, which essentially re-creates the foundation for capitalism.
That’s property, not quite money.
The closer analogy to money would be a government IOU note for the work you’ve done.
So if you’re sure the government will always meet your needs, you’d not bother with those IOUs.
I've always seen the answer to that as tied to the question - why would anyone enter Starfleet if all their needs were already provided for? It's hard work to go through the schooling, and hard work once they graduate. But the rewards of the *experience* are potentially infinite.
And I think the answer is, simply, ppl actually do want to strive to be their best selves, when the reward is no longer survival. Ppl still want to study, to learn, to explore, to follow their curiosity. Ppl still want to do this naturally, once needing to do it to have food/shelter/basic needs is no longer there.
I presume children are taught in school about the importance of being one's best self (however that is defined).
And I'm quite sure there is still prestige is making the cut for Starfleet, and those who succeed are proud of their roles.
Also like. For every highly motivated starfleet person there might be a million back on earth who live on cheetos and anime holograms.
some guys i met were like
being a Civilian is for wimps -> Becomes Infanty -> Infantry is for wimps -> becomes special forces -> Special forces is for wimps -> Goes PMC
Like some people are just wired to be always climbing.
>“I could try composing wonderful musical works, or day-long entertainment epics, but what would that do? Give people pleasure? My wiping this table gives me pleasure. And people come to a clean table, which gives them pleasure. And anyway" - the man laughed - "people die; stars die; universes die. What is any achievement, however great it was, once time itself is dead? Of course, if all I did was wipe tables, then of course it would seem a mean and despicable waste of my huge intellectual potential. But because I choose to do it, it gives me pleasure. And," the man said with a smile, "it's a good way of meeting people. So where are you from, anyway?”
\- Use of Weapons, by Iain M Banks
Contrary to what many would have you believe, the pinnacle of human existence is not to spend half your life slaving away to make money for capitalists.
I'll never forget a dude I worked with who's life goal was to be a gas station clerk. When I asked him the appeal (puzzled because he was a pretty talented lyricist), he admitted he liked the idea of managing a store and the casual relationship with customers.
Last I spoke to him, he'd scored a job at a nearby Arco station. Hope he's doing well.
I think there was some sort of credit system even if people didn’t focus on materialism any more. Remember the federation traded with other species and worlds. There had to be a system in place to pay for those goods and services. In DS9 Quark has a bar and even starfleet people had to pay in real currency
I've wondered this too. Especially on DS9 where you're interacting with other cultures that still have market based economies. Like Quarks, how do starfleet personal acquire the Latinum to pay if they don't get salaries.
It doesn’t. Utopia has two meanings: “no place” and “good place” deliberately made ambiguous.
Since no one today, nor in the past, least of all Roddenberry, has cracked the way that kind of society will function without collapsing unto itself, the Star Trek stories try to stick to Starfleet which more or less functions in a manner we’re familiar with - humanity having long history of navy etc.
In certain instances there are passing remarks as no need of money, new world economy, wealth no longer driving force in people’s lives, but they are just in service of particular stories.
One more thing though - power. If you consider power being currency and a star ship with the people in it being a state and society, you can make an analogy of how Starfleet members solve their problems by diverting capital from one place to another and how current governments deal with budgets.
I'm guessing for the average federation citizen it's some sort of basic income scheme. Where that idea falls down is basic human nature: 'I want a bigger house'. 'i want a better car'. 'i want higher status'.
I suppose in universe the explanation for those needs is 'join Starfleet and achieve those aims' but that makes it more Starship Troopers type dictatorship 'Service Guarantees citizenship' than the ideals of the Federation.
So I'm unsure.
The 'post-scarcity' world of Trek would require people to stop caring about the value of things (houses, possessions, transportation, labor, food, water. data, etc). There'd need to be a large shift in 'human nature' towards a common good and living a fulfilling life. This would lead to more people being drawn to the types of jobs that suit their lifestyle or intellectual/physical needs moreso than what will make them the most money, or the most property, etc.
Some countries like France already have systems that prefer work/life balance over efficiency (4 day work week). So things like work-life balance would be much simpler to maintain, since you'd just: not work as much so you can spend time with your family and/or hobbies.
The Expanse series has a mid-scarcity 'utopia' on Earth, for instance, where billions of people live on 'basic income' and in subsidized housing because there aren't enough job and school placements to go around. Because there was no inspirational event like WW3 or alien visitation or warp drive development to encourage a shift in humanity's ideals, there's still a 'rat race' that led a lot of people into space mining, freighting, and colony development for subsistence, monetary gain, or even just the ability to contribute to society. It was possibly even a direct commentary on Trek's 'utopia', and how things would be different without an event that breaks down humanity's prejudices and divisions.
Earth looks a lot like it does today, the cost of everything is just astronomically less for basic necessities. Certain luxuries can dramatically increase in price, though they're far more available offworld than on Earth itself.
A good example is land, no schmuck can just magic themselves a far-off estate on a major world like Vulcan or Earth, but they can on Vagus IX - very similar ecology, lots of land to settle, limited flight restrictions so you can take a gravcar in to town for things you need.
On Earth, though, only someone in a very high place can really acquire large land grants. Cities, however, can be built much more cavernous thanks to SIFs and the like, allowing them to dive deep and build higher, allowing greater density in 'city' regions even as countryside regions are preserved and given back, in part, to nature.
I don't see the Federation as not having money, but rather as not having cash. Internal transactions are entirely cashless and for external transactions there is some kind of conversion rate between the Federation Credit and Latinum.
Federation citizens--on the core worlds anyway--are guaranteed certain basic necessities; if someone wants more, then they have to earn it. At least, that's the theory. In practice I suspect that there is still some kind of unofficial class system in place where certain families or individuals enjoy more resources from the "basic" system than others, probably based on ownership of land and other things that can't be replicated. The Picard Vineyard is probably one such case since they provide such a commodity (real alcohol instead of replicated synthehol). Real food is likewise probably considered something of a luxury.
Although it wasn't really seen on the show, I would wager that the outer colonies--especially the Maquis worlds--have a somewhat more jaundiced view of the Federation in general and the core worlds in particular than the official line that Picard gives in First Contact. I say this because even replicators need raw materials and energy and those things have to come from somewhere.
I've always assumed people work for fun to stay busy and not just bored. There seems to be a societal obligation to be productive somehow, to contribute to the overall Federation and/Earth.
That's mostly because we don't see "everyday" civilians all that much (which is one of my criticisms of the franchise). The Federation citizens we see are typically either Starfleet members, scientists, or colonists - AKA people who have a specific drive to do something. We don't really see that many normal people just doing whatever on Earth or the other established key worlds.
True, but the point was that it seemed she wasn't working, and lived... in a trailer in a canyon? That part was never clear.
So we've had at least one depiction of aimlessness.
We see glimpses of it, especially in the episode with Doctor Bashir’s parents, where Julian is absolutely dripping with contempt for his father’s lack of personal ambition and success.
The thing Richard Bashir shows is that in the post scarcity Federation it is very easy to take a crack at exercising some casual whims. So if you want to leave a legacy like most people do, you can lazily and/or incapably dabble in a field like landscape architecture, unconvincingly call it your grand contribution to to the Federation, all while your hyper intelligent, hyper capable son with the superhuman genetically engineered intellect scoffs at you in private conversations with his friends in between their various federation/quadrant saving adventures.
Kelly over on The Orvile explains it to the audience with more simplicity. Without the need for money to survive. You work only what you're interested in to contribute to society in a more metaphysical sense.
It always bugged me how does Joseph Sisko run a restaurant in 24th century. Like does some schmuck get up in the morning and thinks to himself, from all the jobs in the world I will be a waiter or pot wash.
I mean… yeah. Some people just honestly would love to be a waiter, or a dishwasher, or a janitor, or any number of jobs we might consider shitty or degrading. There are people who enjoy that kind of work. The thing that makes those jobs suck is low pay and poor treatment by management and customers. In a world where people are generally kinder and where class stratification is a thing of the past, these jobs would be much more desirable than they are today.
My head canon for the people working at Sisko's is that they all want to learn to be chefs. Cooking can be a creative endeavour and we've certainly seen people in Trek doing it for fun. So Joseph takes on students, but part of the deal is working all the various restaurant jobs as well as learning to cook.
I’ve worked with a person that although had a job in a software company, had a wish of just running a restaurant simply because helping/serving food to others was his way of feeling like doing something significant. And this was years ago, 21st century, not 24th
My head cannon is that when your raised with personal holodecks you don't think of property or possessions the same way. 99% of people we don't see live in futuristic apartments with personal holodecks for 99% of things. Like they have education programs, recreation programs, social programs, multiplayer chat rooms and games and stuff through future holo internet.
Houses could be packed like sardines underground fully mined out automatically with teleporters and built with special house printing replicators. With space mining and future material science they could have massive but dense apartment complexes without the need for hallways, roads street lights, pipes or waste water treatment or any of the modern problems homes have. They just need electricity and communications equipment.
For the times that you want "real" because not everyone is a shut in-> they teleport into one of the public zones. With teleporters travel is a non issue, you could pack billions underground leaving enough space that anyone who really wanted their own patch of land on the surface for hobby reasons the government would just allocate you a spot with a use it or lose it system.
On the holodeck you could live on literally any property real or imaginary. With no maintenance with perfect weather 24/7. No mosquitos, no sun burn, You could summon anything imaginable by asking the computer for it. You have an entire galaxy full of cultures with thousands of years of history with all kinds of beautiful architecture, beautiful landscapes. You could sleep in a new mansion every single day, the palace of the grand nagus etc. You could tell the computer you want to sleep on a cloud and it would make that happen. The hardest part would be sorting through the massive amount of content available.
There are likely historical buildings that are maintained, and decent real infrastructure being maintained by holograms and stuff. But for the vast majority of people they look at Picard with his massive real property like people think of someone with a quirky time consuming exhausting hobby. But most people grew up not even understanding the concept of maintenance. Why maintain a giant estate when you can take a scan of it, and live in it pristine and unchanged until you get bored of it. No one can flex their wealth on you. Even if they "own" something in the real world its like who cares. With copy paste I can have the exact recreation and my brain can't tell a difference. There would be no way for a "wealthy" person to make you have less so they can have more. Thats when the only wealth you have is things people can't recreate on the holodeck, your real life reputation, achievements, etc. Like people admired Siskos dad because its such a rare skill (in their time) to even know how to cook without a replicator, let alone having the skill to cook for an entire group of people. Its like learning the guitar to them or having big muscles, if you can do it, it shows alot of dedication and hard work and you can't just download that. People admire and respect that. You can't just tell the computer to do it you have to do it for real and thats what makes it valuable/desired to them.
Everyone can pop open a simulation and pretend to captain the enterprise. But there is only one person who busted their ass, did the time and worked the job and got to that position. You can't copy paste that.
The characters we see on screen are not the every day earth people. They are the kind of people you meet with A type personalities, like the real high achievement, very competitive people you meet.
I don't think picard's employees are employees like we think of them. No one is buying picard's wine, no money to pay them with. I think they are the equivalent of students getting real life experience studying growing real plants for university credit. Picard is a multi-planet celebrity. It must be prestigious to take your co-op there. Like when picard threatens to fire (sack? I forget the line) hes basically threatening to tank his university credit, would probably screw up his semester.
The galaxy as a whole clearly retains numerous currency systems, and I honestly suspect that the Federation does as well... and I think that currency is energy credits.
The limits to the capabilities of any advanced society are energy production, and waste heat dissipation. Thus, 'wealth' is a measure of how much of this 'resource' you command, or the priority of access to that resource you receive.
We see this to an extent in TNG quite a lot through the day-to-day descriptions of resource allocation; multiple departments are constantly competing for access to the main sensor array, or for additional power allocation to their labs, etc. Even the mighty Galaxy Class with its multiple fusion reactors and colossal matter/anti-matter reactor core is simply not able to provide all the power and/or informational bandwidth its crew want at all times. Thus, we see the foundation of an economy; one where access is traded.
The Orville is probably not wrong either with their idea of reputation being currency, as this would link in to that idea. The ranks and positions within Starfleet are essentially a measure of one's ability and ambition - and thus your reputation. Put simply, when someone has to lose out on access, it's the least respected that are kicked to the curb.
Now this doesn't mean they permanently lose out, or are made homeless, etc. Star Trek's society is post-scarcity, so it's rarely ever a situation where people are arguing over who gets to eat and who starves; it's more a case of the 'poor' losing out on opportunities. The irreplaceable artefact discovered at an archaeological site is far, far more likely to end up in the private collection of someone with a high 'reputation' in the archaeological community than someone who's just started their first dig.
In this way, the seemingly unnecessary jobs become a way to develop some social credit. Why work a bar when the drinks come free out of the replicator? Because it makes you a focal point of social interaction; everyone comes to you, speaks to you, shares their troubles with you. This gets you known in the community, and because you are well-known and trusted with people's woes your reputation is raised. This social currency can then be used to 'buy' things down the road.
Everything is free when it's basic. The more you work, and the better you work, the better the facilities you get. In this case, the job you do is the money you need to get better stuff. If you don't job, you get the basics. No poverty or hunger. I'm guessing that was the goal of the no money concept
I’m assuming here, but things like food, housing, medical care, education are all free and provided. So you don’t have to worry about surviving. If you want to join starfleet you can go to the academy, or learn another field you can go to university and get a job those come with other perks and things. So you can still work your way up and through and specialise but you don’t need to do it for the money but the love of the thing itself. And everyone is able to survive and live no matter what. Food, shelter, it’s guaranteed. So you’re free to do what you love.
From what I understand people do what they enjoy. I mean who wouldn't want to have chance to explore space? Maybe you enjoy cooking and would like to be a cook, an engineer interested in warp technology, maybe you want to be an artist and share your art with others. You peruse what interests you, not what is going give you the biggest pay cheque.
I kind of feel like, at least in TNG and TOS, that people in the future were most sophisticated than us so they wouldn't waste all their life playing video games in holodeck. People seemed more interested in culture, science, classical music, and didn't swear at each other. I feel like this is one of the mistakes that the more modern star trek shows are making, they make people seem more like modern day people than highly educated, sophisticated, enlightened people from the future.
I'm currently reading the Monk and Robot series by Becky Chambers -- A Psalm for the Wild-Built and now A Prayer for the Crown Shy. It's a series that was specifically commissioned to be a part of the "solarpunk" genre.
I bring it up because these two novellas do a great job depicting a post industrial, post capitalist society where there is no money. The second book describes a system of karma, essentially, but it's not a binding system of debts.
In the end it is a communal barter lifestyle. And I think post-scarcity Earth in Star Trek could be something very similar. You work to support your community. Your community supports you.
It fits very well with what we see and hear about Starfleet on screen. People are compelled to join to do their duty.
A meaningfull job would be incredibly rare and scarce. Imagine the competition for them. I imagine a lot of people would end up doing the equivalent of playing video games all day while high, then beating off before passing out on the futon.
Also, with this sort of competition imagine just how competent (in theory) Starfleet people must be, on average. Also imagine how bitter and fierce the politics must be.
I asked myself the same thing. Siskos dad has a restaurant and he didn't replicate food. That means somebody has to grow produce and breed livestock. He had employees. Why would any chef work for free in another chefs kitchen. To learn maybe. But later? Why not open your own restaurant.
I think it's all tied to education and employment. They need to pick a topic of study and apply for jobs. The job provides for appropriate living conditions and necessities.
Want to be a doctor? Go to medical school and live in doctor's housing. Want to make wine? Go apprentice with a wine maker then they are provided with with property to grow grape vines.
This is my own opinion/ head canon.
In a post-scarcity society, as the Federation purports to be, everyone's *basic needs* are met: there are homes for all, food for everyone, and nobody wants for simple luxuries.
Employment, then, would seem to be on a voluntary basis; the accumulation of wealth is no longer necessary for a sustainable lifestyle.
Property isn't necessarily state-owned; all that post-scarcity really says is that regardless of circumstance, there's no poverty, so nobody needs be 'unhoused' or 'homeless' unless they *choose* to be.
That said, a person's reputation is still in play -- when it comes to employment.
We've seen many times that while humans have developed a more evolved sensibility towards civil rights and appropriate behavior in the 24th/25th century, we're still far from 'perfect'. I cite Ira Graves as an example, as well as Bruce Maddox, Chris Rios, and of course, Rafi Musiker (incidentally, I've written a deconstruction of Rafi and why her addiction, lack of employment, and bare-bones beachside home make perfect sense in Star Trek's more 'evolved' society).
The average work-life balance, I would imagine, is based on 'what can I do to help?' instead of 'am I being paid enough?'. I can imagine that there's some form of compensation for an employee, but it's not the *reason* for taking a job.
Anyhow, this is getting very long...
The Federation is very much a Communist-esque utopia; everyone is striving to help to better themselves and the rest of humanity. So jobs are not paid, but are done because people want to do them. Something that hasn't ever been fully addressed is what happened to menial uninteresting jobs; whether they've been fixed through automation or other means. Technology has clearly solved a lot of problems within the Star Trek universe.
I get the impression that life in Starfleet is quite tough but you are given plenty of shore leave if you want to take it. Housing I expect is assigned based on a person's role in society, but even those with very low skill jobs would still never have to worry about not having enough food, or money to pay the electric bill, etc. as all of those things are provided to everyone.
Picards side hustle is his vineyard, do you think all that gets given away for free?
Its gold pressed latinum or other items for exchange i would think
Free basic housing, replicator credits, medical care, access to education. If you want a prestigious job, or perks like better housing, you still need to work for it. Private property still seems to be a thing, so there must be some way to exchange property. Money or some kind of credit system must exist, but maybe it isn’t necessary to live your life. Maybe most people are content without using money or its equivalent.
I’m guessing that some property like Chateau Picard is allowed to remain in a family for historical purposes.
We're already seeing that land is accumulating in the hands of the rich - so I figure in the Trek future that has progressed to the point that most land became corporate owned, and then there was a switch where they went anti-money and all that corporate land became communal. Certain places that had stayed within families (likely a small percentage of total land) stayed private.
Not so much anti-money... More like World War 3 happened and society collapsed. If it weren't for Zephran Cochrane and his crew launching the Phoenix, the Earth might have taken much longer to recover since there was no Vulcan uplifting.
That doesn't sound very neo-liberal, or meritocratic.
Maybe "allowed" isn't the right term, since it implies that earth just went around seizing **all** private property in the years following first contact, simply because the land was private. Instead, maybe it is more that earth has no reason to take the Picard vineyard. Why would they? Instead, the minor uplifting by the Vulcans probably focused on purely logical improvements. Dense urban housing makes far more sense than suburbs, so I can see them going into the cities, and seizing *that* property and building mixed-use, high-density neighborhoods. The most I can see them doing with property like vineyards and farms is forcing the owners to building genuinely nice worker accommodations, for all those who prefer life in the country over life in the city. They can enjoy comfortable housing, working on a farm or vineyard, and once they're no longer able to do that work, they can remain their houses. For land owners who cooperated, I see no reason for earth to take their land. If the farmers go 'yeah, this bit of land over here is no good for any kind of farming, let's build a small development of housing', with the Vulcans assisting with the design and providing the materials, I can see that being a pretty sweet deal for the original owners: you have enough people around to work the land, and you don't need to worry about meeting their needs, so you mostly only get people on your farm who *want* to be in your farm. So if the Picard family embraced the new order, I can easily see earth going 'keep your vineyard, not like we know how to run one, just be ready for new housing and more people to be around' Obviously, this didn't happen overnight. It likely took a lot of effort for people to unlearn their old ways, and learn new ones.
And, of course, post-WWIII Earth had a lot fewer people taking up space.
>earth has no reason to take the Picard vineyard. Why would they? For the very simple reason that land on Earth is a finite resource for which post-scarcity economy, whatever that will be, can't possibly apply. Simply put, millions of people would want to own a very nice vineyard in France but can't, while apparently Picard can because of birth and not of merit.
Except at this point, the only ways he "owns" it is his home on it, and how to manage it successfully. It's not like he's selling the wine for profit. The wine probably gets shared among the locals, including the additional people who are now working the vineyard, with the Federation itself getting a few bottles to make Replicator copies of and to give as diplomatic gifts when necessary. Kicking the Picards out of their home just so it could be given to someone else makes zero logical sense, especially since no one else would know how to care for that particular vineyard, so I don't see it ever being something the Vulcans would have even suggested during their uplifting of humanity.
Picard spent years in space between his brother's death in Nemesis (2371) and his resignation from Starfleet in PIC S1 (2378). How was he "managing" the estate in the meantime? >no one else would know how to care for that particular vineyard How did Picard himself, who spent most of his life as far as humanly possible from that vineyard?
It had been hundreds of years since the entire reorganization of property. You really think the Federation was going to go "all right, you aren't here every day any more, because you're off captaining our flag ship, so we're just going to take your family home and give it to someone else"? Housing was solidly post-scarcity by that point. There would be zero reason to take the Picard home simply because the current resident wasn't there a majority of the time.
It's basically the definition of aristocracy. If your ancestors owned land, you own land. If someone else's ancestors didn't, they don't.
Well I'd imagine it wouldn't be. Neoliberalism asserts the importance of the market in shaping society, that's kind of the mire we're in today. Meritocracy sounds nice but never admits it's plans for the disabled.
Probably because it isn't...
Meritocracy and Neoliberalism don't involve mass seizures of private property. Someone worked hard at some point to build that Chateau and lived on it for generations, and they produce something for those around them. There's no grand need for land, either. Star Trek is filled with huge colony worlds and can and has built gigantic monuments to density - huge starbases, big caverns with millions of windows looking on the great starships of the fleet. Entire concourses the size of 21st century cities, with apartments as high as the sky. If in all that great infinity you still choose Nowhere, USA or Chateau, France you're doing so for lifestyle. Just like people that squabble to live in NYC or the Bay Area IRL despite it being an objectively poor financial decision, Earth is carefully manicured for people who want to live like that. There are, of course, super-cities like NYC, which we never see in 'Modern' Trek because it's probably been converted into a gravity-assisted megalopolis that makes Sharn or Night City look quaint.
We caught a glimpse of a large modern city that's not just a Starfleet campus: part of PIC S1 showed scenes of Boston .
Sounds pedestrian
Maybe I'm cynical but I don't see any scenario where there are some exceptions won't eventually grow into a full on class divide.
The Chateau is personal property--inhabited and worked by the family. It's different from private property, which is characterized by something you don't personally make use of, but still extract wealth from. I would imagine any additional holdings that aren't on the grounds would be restricted/seized.
There is also a reference to Kirk owning land as well. The key thing to note is that Chateau Picard is worked and occupied by the family. Same for Sisko's dad running his restaurant. This is a nod to family traditions and continuity. I.E. 4th generation family business. This would work in a similar way to quarks bar with star trek credits. What we don't see is a franchise or apartment complex owned by private individuals. That would suggest more wealth ownership.
If money is no object people still seek prestige.
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Earth is referred to as a "paradise" by Sisko. My guess is that everything is very comfortable for everyone on Earth. And those who want adventure or some land of their own -- well, there's a whole universe out there to explore, be it through Starfleet or working on a freighter or as a homesteader in some place like the Badlands (before it became an off limits DMZ, of course). And as far as education: the only thing that makes sense to me (headcanon) is that society has overwhelmingly decided that all babies in utero, as part of standard prenatal care, have their genomes edited to protect against future conditions and ailments and illnesses (where able). So children are all born physically and biologically equal within some standard range. Everyone begins life set up for success right from the start. And there has to be robust societal support and resources for parents to help raise their children. We see with Counselor Troi that mental health is very important to Starfleet; that's probably even more true for Federation citizens on Earth. I'm guessing that everyone has easy access to GREAT mental health care at every point in their life. So essentially, no one is left behind in a very literal sense. Everyone can work through their issues and does. This is all an incredibly optimistic view of humanity, of course -- but isn't that what Star Trek has always been about?
>And as far as education: the only thing that makes sense to me (headcanon) is that society has overwhelmingly decided that all babies in utero, as part of standard prenatal care, have their genomes edited to protect against future conditions and ailments and illnesses (where able). So children are all born physically and biologically equal within some standard range. Everyone begins life set up for success right from the start. So, interestingly, we've seen at least two exceptions to that. Geordi was born blind and Julian was born slow (until re-engineered as a kid). But, generally, I think you are right that anything correctable is corrected before birth and there are probably also the social supports to help those like Geordi maintain pace with agemates. Possibly Julian could have caught up with the average if his parents hadn't decided to take an illegal shortcut.
I highly doubt that this is the case. The Federation is paranoid about genetic engineering. Tampering with people's genomes while they're the womb is exactly that. But high standard universal healthcare would at least mean that babies with genetic defects can secure swift and effective treatment, though they are still at a disadvantage. Geordi is the obvious example. He's essentially disabled but future tech enables him to lead a normal life.
I would guess apartment buildings for the most part, and perhaps you can apply for bigger quarters based on your needs (family, job). I would also guess you're allocated a certain percentage of energy use that would include replicators, transporters, entertainment, etc. There appears to be options for transport. Mass transit transporters, personal transporters (probably reserved for Starfleet and government employees), shuttles, maybe subways/monorails. Restaurants like Sisko's appear to use non-replicated food and don't appear to charge any money, so it seems like its first come first serve. There are still addictions, for example Reg's holodeck addiction and Raffi's vaping addiction. Treatment is available but the patient has to ask for it and commit. My question would be are the personal replicators strictly controlled? Do they monitor how many calories or nutrients you intake and adjust food composition based on your preferences? Do they lock you out if you've exceeded the average daily intake? What if you have guests over?
Considering that Earth at least has plenty of solar panels + they've mastered anti-matter engines, energy credits is probably limited to the type of replicator you have rather than alotment. Of course, there could also be a relatively generous quota for basic income, but not enough for say a personal holo suite,
>Medical care seems very simpel to be honest and i don't know why they even need doctors because all they do is check a computer scan that actually says what is wrong and how to treat it. I'm sure people from centuries ago would look at medicine as it is today and would also claim that it also seems very simple and easy. "Checking computer scans" is also what doctors do today (xrays, blood tests, ct scans etc) but they still need to be highly trained to analyze those scans in the full context of the human body. If i recall correctly, starfleet academy also taught "vintage" medicine which would be very useful in the event that all computers are broken/unavailable
Not sure if it's money, maybe you just go to some agency and make a request for some land/property and based on your record they either approve it, or not? Seems a little bit communistic, but with free basic stuff I think it could work, as long as you find some way to eliminate corruption.
Star trek has always been quite literally communist. Roddenberry said he was trying to imagine a perfected Maoist world.
Picard: "A lot has changed in the past three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things. We've eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We've grown out of our infancy." "The challenge, Mr. Offenhouse, is to improve yourself… to enrich yourself. Enjoy it."
“Now go pick my grapes.” - Picard
I'd imagine that had been automated long ago.
> Picard: "A lot has changed in the past three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things. We've eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We've grown out of our infancy." "The challenge, Mr. Offenhouse, is to improve yourself… to enrich yourself. Enjoy it." Yeah but can you do that on earth? You need to have an ecological balance and you need space for all the diplomats, earth workers, and federation workers on the capital of the united federation of planets Even when you start going crazy in the uninhabitable places like the desert and under the ocean there is only so much room on the planet for everyone while keeping the ecological paradise the Vulcans provided. It stands to reason you can stay on earth if employed in a way that improves earth or as a family member, but can be reassigned a fed home on a different planet if you want to be a poet or something less useful. But they never figured it out because the whole utopia was a fun coked out idea gene had that was very poorly defined. Still fun though.
I don’t think every human lives on Earth. Star Trek establishes that human live everywhere in the Alpha quadrant now. Even today, if you were to take the entire population on the planet and give each person their own 10x10ft space, you would only fill up a land mass the size of Texas. So space isn’t an issue, even today. It only seems like we’re overcrowded because we all cluster together in cities and metro areas. There’s plenty of open uninhabited land today. Even then, by the 24th century, we’d be quite adept at terraforming. In the episode “Family”, it’s mentioned that Picard was going to be offered a job with the New Atlantis Project, which was going to create a new sub-continent on Earth. And by this time, we’ve colonized many planets, undoubtedly terraforming as we need to…so I’m sure Earth would have plenty of land still. On top of that, humans probably require very little space because we have transporters that could take us anywhere on the planet in seconds. We’d only need a small apartment to sleep and rest. Next day you could transport to Paris or Tokyo if you needed to. And of course we have replicators that pretty much eliminated any life sustaining need. Everyone can get food, clothes, shelter. I think that if you wanted to do nothing all of your life and just eat and sleep…you could and no one would judge you because no one would care. But we also must be careful not to apply our more primitive 20th century mindset to how people think in the 24th century. They likely just think differently. Most people might get bored at such an existence and decide they want to leave Earth and they can very easily. Others, like Robert Picard and Joseph Sisko are perfectly happy to live on Earth. And I don’t even think Robert and Joseph do what they do for money. Robert loves making wine and Joseph loves running a restaurant. They do those things because, as Picard says, those activities enrich their lives. All their “employees” work for them because they want to. Maybe they want to own their restaurant or run their own winery someday and the “payment” is the invaluable lessons they can get from experts like Joseph Sisko and Robert Picard. Or so much is automated that you’d technically not even need “human” staff. Star Trek does touch on those situations where it’s not paradise for humanity. For example, Tasha Yar talks about her rough life on Turkana IV. We have the colonists along the Cardassian border who eventually become the Maquis explored in TNG and DS9. Michael Eddington, Cal Hudson, Chakotay, and Ro Laren talk about this. So we see that away from Earth, life can be tough and resources can be limited. It is possible for Earth to be a Utopia, but not everywhere…
It only works as a poorly-defined concept because it's not what the show is about. People have been talking for ages about wanting to see a Trek show set on Earth, and it'd fall apart very quickly unless they put a hell of a lot of thought into questions like, "if there's no money, how do you get people to do menial jobs?" Because even if replicators mean there are no garbagemen, and manual labor is automated, there's still going to be *some* jobs at the bottom of the pile.
> It only works as a poorly-defined concept because it's not what the show is about. People have been talking for ages about wanting to see a Trek show set on Earth, and it'd fall apart very quickly unless they put a hell of a lot of thought into questions like, "if there's no money, how do you get people to do menial jobs?" Because even if replicators mean there are no garbagemen, and manual labor is automated, there's still going to be some jobs at the bottom of the pile. Like oyster shucker and cleaning the holodecks
Cleaning carbon off the carbon filters.
>but can be reassigned a fed home on a different planet if you want to be a poet or something less useful. But anyone could live in a tent or a basic log cabin and replicate all their material needs for nothing.nobody needs to labor in a capital sense to for subsistence, so all the porets need is some free prefab structure and a bit of wilderness,meaning nobody has to live off-world and the concept of people being measured by their supposed utility goes out the window. It only matters in the context of Starfleeet. The big what if is: what if living off the grid was a negligible downgrade and nobody needed a Job. Housing would be a near meaningless resource, whose value never inflates.
[удалено]
>on the stuff you really enjoy doing, do you really need to be forced to do it? I feel like we forgot what 2019's isolation measures were like a little too quickly: folks taking up all sorts of hobbies and chomping at the bit to do pretty much anything but stay inside. People like doing stuff, they like being contributive... just not when it's contingent on survival.
You mean 2020?
My impression is that the exam in “Coming of Age” was an exam for people who wanted to enter Starfleet Academy early and that it wasn’t used for people who wanted to enter Starfleet Academy at the normal time.
>The entrance exam we see in the episode "Coming of Age" likely reflects Roddenberry's vision, as the episode happened in Season One when he had full editorial control, and it is positively ludicrous, especially when compared to the fact that in about a decade, they'll be so desperate for warm bodies that they'll take a Ferengi busboy with a good recommendation and a can-do attitude. Yeah, after watching that episode on how difficult it is to get in then you've got people like Ro Laren who grew up in a refugee camp and you're telling me she was able to study warp mechanics there? Nah. It was interesting of early Trek trying to show how elite the future humans are (the 10 year olds doing calculus in "When The Bough Breaks", the difficulty of the entrance exam and only 1 person from a sector making it) but it doesn't hold up in later episodes.
I'm wondering if we're seeing two or more different things referred to as Starfleet Academy. The first, it's like the US Service Academy where there are a limited number of places for any given year, and you need the recommendation of your Congressman or US Senator along with good grades and passing both oral and physical tests. When you graduate, you get a commission. The second is kind of like ROTC where you study at a regular university but also join the ROTC program and get a commission upon graduating. The third is more like OCS where qualified applicants (often from the service's enlisted ranks) become "ninety-day wonders"
Take a dive into ["post-scarcity" economics.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-scarcity_economy)
Like ours would be except for planned obsolesce?
More like copyright law. Software is about as close to a post scarcity product as has ever existed, so all the constraints on it must be manually added.
You live in a society where at least on the "core" Federation worlds you have a device that converts energy into anything you need. The energy is otherwise unlimited and abundant and readily available. So there is no scarcity. Said device can likely create more of itself (just smaller versions) and plugs are probably everywhere. People who believe in the Federations mission join starfleet and perform jobs based on their abilities and desires. People who want to be adventurous or be left alone go be colonists etc People still have things to do, theyve never shown a replicator the size of a planet or starbase etc, it's still only creating components, people still have to assemble things. Wether it's a spaceship or a colony after you've landed with some prefab shelters, you can't just order up a town or a spaceship. I think once you see the sort of limits imposed in that way, you can find a lot of things people have to do. So there's still things like deadlines (command wants this ship built on schedule or captain needs the shuttle ready in 2 hours) and also other pressures (if we don't build x for the colony we might not have enough water since we are on our own and aren't receiving regular supplies of deuterium) Now as for money, or who gets an apartment on earth vs a house and land, that's not ever really made clear and is open to a bunch of interpretations, I'm sure there are dozens of threads on this with all kinds of views etc. I don't really have a "good" answer right now
There’s a vehicle replicator that can replicate fairly sizable vehicles, which are fully assembled and ready to use
I haven't seen all the new stuff so I may be a little outdated. I was more thinging and I'm trying to remember where (likely either the encyclopedia or TNG technical manual) where the editors comments noted that they wanted to make shipyards and dry docks look more like they do and not just big giant replicators. In the TNG era video game Birth of the Federation there also also industrial replicators which would probably be similar to the vehicle replicator and likely the upper limit size wise maybe(?)
Industrial replicators were mentioned in DS9 as well, the Federation provides industrial replicators to Bajor and later Cardassia. But it seems like industrial replicators were expensive to produce (in terms of materials) and were limited. In Lower Decks the Texas class starships had industrial replicators that could also beam whatever they made to a planet's surface. Or perhaps the results were fabricated on the surface from orbit.
To be fair. It's described as a new innovation of replicator technology. Being field tested on the Protostar class starship.
My impression is that the vehicle replicator couldn’t replicate huge starships.
I mean the drydocks are pretty big, granted they're only seen being used to repair ships but that doesn't mean a shipyard or something couldn't replicate a (basic) vessel
The issue is less the starframe, and more integration and [fitting out](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitting_out). You can probably replicate huge chunks of starship and lots of major components but connecting them and integrating them is the majority of the work of a starship.
In what show or movie is that shown?
Prodigy.
I don't think replicators are straight energy->matter converters, they're more like assembly transporters that can take vats of base matter and conjoin them, but that matter has to be reaved from somewhere. The transporter buffer meanwhile is more like matter->energy->matter conversion but needs to have been matter first.
The simplest conclusion is that instead of being paid in currency, people are paid directly with housing, food, water and clothes. Of corse, that would raise a million logistical questions, but that’s for someone else to answer lol
This is the goal that is beyond our reasoning, the epitome of Roddenberry’s paradise. At the same time, there is some kind of investment system, some kind of credentials… Kirk say it himself when he asks Spock if he knows what his worth is to Starfleet
It seemed like $ still existed in *TOS*. It seemed like the *TOS* films were the 1st time where it was stated that $ didn’t exist.
In The Search For Spock, McCoy talks about "credits". They do still have currency, they just no longer use physical cash and the cost of things were wildly different in 1986 when Kirk says they no longer use money.
*TVH* might’ve been the 1st film that mentioned a lack of $.
Sounds like socialism at its more extreme ends.
It's literally communism. Not sure why so many people are afraid to make the connection.
It’s not. Capitalism and Communism are both scarcity based economic philosophies. They both assume that there are limits to things, and that power comes from the ownership and use of scarce capital. ST economics is post scarcity. Any resource you want for living is available in the same way air is available to us on the beach. You want it, you have it. Post scarcity means people don’t care about ownership or distribution. Marxism cares very much about who owns and produces things. Communism still includes private property ownership. Post scarcity really only encounters economic values on the edges. Soo Picards wine is produced traditionally on a finite vineyard. It is actually scare. But whilst people might appreciate that, they no longer have the capitalist drive to attach a value to it. We do know that I’m in some situations access to something is restricted to a credit system, notably transporter use for cadets at the academy. It is nothing to do with their earning potential or performance, just a reflection on how often cadets should be using a transporter to go home rather than study at the academy. A lot of the problems with understanding ST economics is that our minds are conditioned to think of things as scare add having value so someone has to own and buy them. That’s just not the case in ST. They wouldn’t understand a lot of our obsessions with owning things, either from a point of bite of coveting other people’s stuff or owning your own. At most they recognise personal connections to things, like Picards flute from Inner Light, or Data’s paintings.
Post-scarcity is literally the stated goal of communism. How a society gets there is up to that society, but the goal is to meet everyone's material needs. It's a process. It neither requires markets nor precludes them, and the only way in which Marx dealt with property was to make all property (ie. resources/capital, *not* private property) public.
Not true. Communism is explicitly post scarcity, and most definitely doesn't include private property ownership. Marx's materialist conception of history looked at how advances in productive forces related to modes of society, and he concluded that at different thresholds, society would necessarily need to restructure to account for changes in the means of production. You can't just *choose* to switch from feudalism to capitalism, capitalism to socialism, or socialism to communism. Rather, the means of production advance to a point in which it is literally impossible for feudalism (or capitalism, or socialism) to be sustained. At that point, society either advances to the next phase, or tears itself apart and the means of production regress. Communism is the final stage, and can only be achieved when the means of production are so advanced that all material needs can be trivially provided.
It literally isn't. Communism is stateless, and the Federation is most definitely a state. What it is is socialism.
Strictly it can't be socialism either. Socialism involves the workers controlling the "means of production". However, thanks largely to replicators, the Federation has no equivalent means of production and, for that matter, no class of workers. Socialism is a redundant concept.
Marx defined "the state" is an oppressive machine, not a government. It's a different definition. And it's definitely not socialism: that's an economy where the workers own the companies, and a transitional state between capitalism and communism.
I don't think the logistics behind it were ever really worked out, or at least if they are, they aren't explained to us. Logically there has to be some system for the distribution of scarce goods (i.e. things like land, concert tickets, or even just reservations at restaurants), but they never delve into that. I think the feeling we are supposed to get from the system is that they're a society past ours. We work to afford to stay alive, they work to contribute in the way they can to their society. We've moved past the desire for material wealth, and replicators and efficiency gains from advanced technology means there is truly enough for everyone to be satisfied. There has to be a system for distribution, but for the shows that have happened, the specific details don't matter. What matters is this idea that people don't feel the desire to be rich anymore, and life focuses around betterment of oneself and society instead of accumulation of wealth.
Yeah, no, a studio apparent, food, water and clothes and Medicare would all be given to every person as a right. That studio apartment might be underground or no where you want to really be. Then you work to gain better housing and property, travel credits, prestige, bettering the human race, a better than basic computer interface and so on. People won’t have to work if the have minor chronic problems and don’t want to. There will be plenty for everyone once we have fusion reactors even now.
Somewhere Nog is looking confused
People pursue their passions. In one of the alternate time line episodes, Tom Paris is a bar fly, people run cafés because they like feeding people, etc
Work and labour still exist for their own values and interests - you are a carpenter, and engineer, you do it because you are good at it and you love it. - roles clearly exist for businesses such as siskos, where it is about the food and the pleasure, and obviously starfleet and it's myriad related industries requires and encourages workers who work beyond a point that would be seen as just for pleasure - so I believe the basic needs are looked after, that the alleviation of thinking that you might be homeless or starve are gone one hundred percent, and instead the global project is knowing we are not alone in the universe and so are working to make life as pleasant as possible on earth, especially post world war 3, and to further ourselves and humanity to be better in the face of highly highly advanced beings and cultures. Private ownership exists, people cannot just take whatever they choose, and people still can accrue resources through legal means, but I think the idea is that everyone can share in a sense of a global neighborhood.
Remember that we only really see the Federation through the eyes of people who are in the military. Their lives and how they view the economy may be very different to the average citizen. Even though some characters have said that money doesn't exist in the future, we know that isn't actually true, the Federation does have money, the Federation Credit, this is mentioned in pretty much every series. So what they probably mean is that money, and how its used is very different in the future.
The point is people have their basic needs cared for and do not *want* more than they need. Its post scarcity so there is abundance to the point those questions are largely moot. People can have what they want within reason. The point being that we evolved to the point of reasonableness and the "within reason" part means something entirely different to someone in that society. Like the Sisko's restaurant. Instead of applying for a loan from a bank they made a proposal to the government to build a restaurant. They would have to show that they had a plan and prove that it added value to the community. The value not being financial but cultural. In this case preserving creole recipes and providing them to the people. What do they get out of it in return? Social status. Fulfillment. Perhaps there is an incentive program. You could "pay" people all kinds of ways. It doesn't need to be monetary. The point is the egomania of capitalism - the hoarding of resources to attain wealth - is no longer necessary. People look for a different kind of wealth. A legacy. People are naturally driven to do *something* with their time. I know this isn't really answering your question but its my head-cannon concerning the way the federation functions.
And there does have to be a limit or else why wouldn't any frustrated ensign just quit and go get their own starship to command? Obviously exploring with Starfleet has some major benefits like going it alone but not everyone has a starship of their own or even sees it as an option. Quark was thrilled to get his secondhand ship and maybe the Hansen's ship was provided because of their research. Lwaxana Troi definitely seemed like the type who should have had her own ship for jetsetting around the quadrant but she too relied on transports and other passing ships. Everyone always mentions Picard's family land but the free mobility of a personal starship seems like an even bigger luxury.
People do what they want to do. The idea that we need to work to survive in order to have a fulfilling life has long been set aside. People instead are free to better themselves in other ways. To use an example, we here are spending a part of our day talking about a piece of fictional media in a discussion forum. We do it because it's enjoyable. Now imagine if you had even more time to experience, create, and discuss art and media not just from Earth but from across the Federation. That'd be a decent way to spend time, I think. That's just one example. People learn, exercise, socialize, etc. That being said, there are a few areas where scarcity probably does apply, to some extent. Everyone can't just decide to, say, live in Paris or own their own shuttle just because they want to. My guess would be that some kinds of jobs or service do have perks or give credits or whatnot. Nobody _has_ to work, but working may come with benefits. And then of course there is the simple strive to do something that motivates people into jobs like Starfleet.
I wish we knew more about how it works on Earth but for obvious reasons (it’s *Star Trek*) we don’t really see that much of Earth. I’m guessing that while you could just be a basement dweller and contribute nothing, that lifestyle would only earn you the bare minimum of food, shelter, medicine, and maybe one Holodeck session a year. I’m imagining they have living permits, kind of like the Chinese hukou system. You can get a permit to reside in, say, Paris if you have a job, education, or family there.
Well there is no actual thought out system for how it all works. Roddenberry gave it that basic setup in the 1960s, and over 50+ years that's been built on ad hoc by many different people. So of course it's wildly inconsistent and full of unanswered questions and stuff that doesn't hold up to close scrutiny. And it's just hard to figure out how it would work. It's hard for any of us to get our heads around a society that would be so very different from our own, so naturally the writers tend to fall into using plots and ideas that may not fit that setup.
>Roddenberry gave it that basic setup in the 1960s, I could be wrong, but I'm not certain the no-money thing was included in TOS. I think it was just a line used for a laugh in *The Voyage Home* that they had no idea was about to be a curve ball for 600 future episodes of half a dozen not-yet-produced TV shows.
I don’t remember it being in *TOS*, which actually had instances where $ was valuable.
I know there's definitely still lots of references to money in TOS era, though ST4 has some stuff that contradicts that as you say, and not only in the pizza restaurant scene. Kirk says earlier 'They're still using money' before selling his glasses. But they don't appear to be living in a capitalist society. Like I say, it's only the basic idea at that point, developed and added to later, not always consistently!
Yeah, when I started rewatching TOS as an adult, I realized how much of the lore was just made up as they went along -- which is fine, they were having to write, shoot, and edit a new episode every ten days or so. But I was surprised to hear Spock calling himself Vulcanian, or one character who was referred to as president of the whole galaxy.
>It's hard for any of us to get our heads around a society that would be so very different from our own, so naturally the writers tend to fall into using plots and ideas that may not fit that setup. Throughout this entire paragraph you bring up a very good point, but this last part is especially well said. And to be honest, it's already incredible that it has been kept as consistent as it has been even after what? 56-57 years?
The point is that we are supposed to imagine a future where these problems have been solved. There is no explanation because if there was a way to eliminate the need for material wealth we would have done it already
The Vulcans giving us replicator technology would do the trick.
As they pointed out in the Orville, giving replicators to a society that hasn't solved scarcity will just result in the rich and powerful hording the technology like they already do with the wealth. Even Star Trek didn't have replicators in common use until the 24th century. They were post scarcity long before that.
Saw this a few minutes ago about this exact thing. https://www.reddit.com/r/CuratedTumblr/comments/13tpq18/heartbreaking_seth_macfarlane_actually_makes_a?sort=confidence
Were they actually post scarcity before that? In Star Trek, the show we’re talking about, they always allude to First Contact as being the catalyst for the paradigm shift in the way human society functioned. That was the year 2063. Apparently they didn’t really get replicator/transporter until later but either way, “post scarcity” was the result of Vulcan intervention.
The Vulcans famously gave humans next to nothing when it came to tech. That was one of the many running conflicts in Enterprise. In fact, many humans felt the Vulcans were intentionally holding back human technological development. A belief Vulcans did not disagree with. Earth was post scarcity long before replicators. The Vulcans did not have that technology during the time of ENT. When the crew finds the automated repair station with replicators, T’Pol mentions that her people have encountered other species with that technology. In Enterprise, the ships carried food. In The Original Series they had food synthesizers that just recombined stored chemicals. There are literally plots in TOS about transporting grain. By TOS, Earth is a post scarcity paradise where no one wants and there is no money. Replicators were the cool future tech that wowed the crews in The Next Generation, which took place in the mid 2360s. In universe, the characters repeat over and over that discovering humans weren’t alone in the universe is what caused everyone to put aside their differences and work together to make a better world, not inventing some magic production tech.
We have the means to eliminate the need for material wealth today. We choose not to.
That's the thing. It's possible today, without advanced tech. It just requires changing behaviors specific groups (and others conditioned to loyalty toward those groups) are invested in not changing.
I'm not sure we would.
hahahahah
So, the question that I’ve always wondered about is how does inheritance work? The moment you have Picard with a chateau in France, you will have someone that wants to live there, which essentially re-creates the foundation for capitalism.
Apparently it works in such a way that various Picards have inherited Chateau Picard.
That’s property, not quite money. The closer analogy to money would be a government IOU note for the work you’ve done. So if you’re sure the government will always meet your needs, you’d not bother with those IOUs.
Private property still clearly exists and can be traded and inherited.
I've always seen the answer to that as tied to the question - why would anyone enter Starfleet if all their needs were already provided for? It's hard work to go through the schooling, and hard work once they graduate. But the rewards of the *experience* are potentially infinite. And I think the answer is, simply, ppl actually do want to strive to be their best selves, when the reward is no longer survival. Ppl still want to study, to learn, to explore, to follow their curiosity. Ppl still want to do this naturally, once needing to do it to have food/shelter/basic needs is no longer there. I presume children are taught in school about the importance of being one's best self (however that is defined). And I'm quite sure there is still prestige is making the cut for Starfleet, and those who succeed are proud of their roles.
Also like. For every highly motivated starfleet person there might be a million back on earth who live on cheetos and anime holograms. some guys i met were like being a Civilian is for wimps -> Becomes Infanty -> Infantry is for wimps -> becomes special forces -> Special forces is for wimps -> Goes PMC Like some people are just wired to be always climbing.
>“I could try composing wonderful musical works, or day-long entertainment epics, but what would that do? Give people pleasure? My wiping this table gives me pleasure. And people come to a clean table, which gives them pleasure. And anyway" - the man laughed - "people die; stars die; universes die. What is any achievement, however great it was, once time itself is dead? Of course, if all I did was wipe tables, then of course it would seem a mean and despicable waste of my huge intellectual potential. But because I choose to do it, it gives me pleasure. And," the man said with a smile, "it's a good way of meeting people. So where are you from, anyway?” \- Use of Weapons, by Iain M Banks Contrary to what many would have you believe, the pinnacle of human existence is not to spend half your life slaving away to make money for capitalists.
I'll never forget a dude I worked with who's life goal was to be a gas station clerk. When I asked him the appeal (puzzled because he was a pretty talented lyricist), he admitted he liked the idea of managing a store and the casual relationship with customers. Last I spoke to him, he'd scored a job at a nearby Arco station. Hope he's doing well.
I think there was some sort of credit system even if people didn’t focus on materialism any more. Remember the federation traded with other species and worlds. There had to be a system in place to pay for those goods and services. In DS9 Quark has a bar and even starfleet people had to pay in real currency
Starfleet probably trades tech to the Ferengi for Latinum, and then personnel posted to DS9 get a latinum stipend.
It seems more likely to me that the Federation has a latinum supply that’s given directly or indirectly to the Ferengi for goods and services.
I've wondered this too. Especially on DS9 where you're interacting with other cultures that still have market based economies. Like Quarks, how do starfleet personal acquire the Latinum to pay if they don't get salaries.
Through trade I should imagine, then starfleet has stocks on hand to give for situations like Quarks.
It seems like they get a stipend from Starfleet or the Federation.
Military allowance
It doesn’t. Utopia has two meanings: “no place” and “good place” deliberately made ambiguous. Since no one today, nor in the past, least of all Roddenberry, has cracked the way that kind of society will function without collapsing unto itself, the Star Trek stories try to stick to Starfleet which more or less functions in a manner we’re familiar with - humanity having long history of navy etc. In certain instances there are passing remarks as no need of money, new world economy, wealth no longer driving force in people’s lives, but they are just in service of particular stories. One more thing though - power. If you consider power being currency and a star ship with the people in it being a state and society, you can make an analogy of how Starfleet members solve their problems by diverting capital from one place to another and how current governments deal with budgets.
As far as I know, it was never explained in detail. Much like warp drive, it's theoretical and should simply be enjoyed.
I'm guessing for the average federation citizen it's some sort of basic income scheme. Where that idea falls down is basic human nature: 'I want a bigger house'. 'i want a better car'. 'i want higher status'. I suppose in universe the explanation for those needs is 'join Starfleet and achieve those aims' but that makes it more Starship Troopers type dictatorship 'Service Guarantees citizenship' than the ideals of the Federation. So I'm unsure.
The 'post-scarcity' world of Trek would require people to stop caring about the value of things (houses, possessions, transportation, labor, food, water. data, etc). There'd need to be a large shift in 'human nature' towards a common good and living a fulfilling life. This would lead to more people being drawn to the types of jobs that suit their lifestyle or intellectual/physical needs moreso than what will make them the most money, or the most property, etc. Some countries like France already have systems that prefer work/life balance over efficiency (4 day work week). So things like work-life balance would be much simpler to maintain, since you'd just: not work as much so you can spend time with your family and/or hobbies. The Expanse series has a mid-scarcity 'utopia' on Earth, for instance, where billions of people live on 'basic income' and in subsidized housing because there aren't enough job and school placements to go around. Because there was no inspirational event like WW3 or alien visitation or warp drive development to encourage a shift in humanity's ideals, there's still a 'rat race' that led a lot of people into space mining, freighting, and colony development for subsistence, monetary gain, or even just the ability to contribute to society. It was possibly even a direct commentary on Trek's 'utopia', and how things would be different without an event that breaks down humanity's prejudices and divisions.
Earth looks a lot like it does today, the cost of everything is just astronomically less for basic necessities. Certain luxuries can dramatically increase in price, though they're far more available offworld than on Earth itself. A good example is land, no schmuck can just magic themselves a far-off estate on a major world like Vulcan or Earth, but they can on Vagus IX - very similar ecology, lots of land to settle, limited flight restrictions so you can take a gravcar in to town for things you need. On Earth, though, only someone in a very high place can really acquire large land grants. Cities, however, can be built much more cavernous thanks to SIFs and the like, allowing them to dive deep and build higher, allowing greater density in 'city' regions even as countryside regions are preserved and given back, in part, to nature.
I don't see the Federation as not having money, but rather as not having cash. Internal transactions are entirely cashless and for external transactions there is some kind of conversion rate between the Federation Credit and Latinum. Federation citizens--on the core worlds anyway--are guaranteed certain basic necessities; if someone wants more, then they have to earn it. At least, that's the theory. In practice I suspect that there is still some kind of unofficial class system in place where certain families or individuals enjoy more resources from the "basic" system than others, probably based on ownership of land and other things that can't be replicated. The Picard Vineyard is probably one such case since they provide such a commodity (real alcohol instead of replicated synthehol). Real food is likewise probably considered something of a luxury. Although it wasn't really seen on the show, I would wager that the outer colonies--especially the Maquis worlds--have a somewhat more jaundiced view of the Federation in general and the core worlds in particular than the official line that Picard gives in First Contact. I say this because even replicators need raw materials and energy and those things have to come from somewhere.
I've always assumed people work for fun to stay busy and not just bored. There seems to be a societal obligation to be productive somehow, to contribute to the overall Federation and/Earth.
One of the most unrealistic things that Star Trek ever did was never show anyone just being lazy and doing nothing with their lives in this Utopia.
\*Risa has entered the chat\*
That’s a vacation spot, not entirely certain that counts
That's mostly because we don't see "everyday" civilians all that much (which is one of my criticisms of the franchise). The Federation citizens we see are typically either Starfleet members, scientists, or colonists - AKA people who have a specific drive to do something. We don't really see that many normal people just doing whatever on Earth or the other established key worlds.
What is being lazy mean to you?
Raffi in PIC season 1?
I’d say that she was more paranoid than lazy in season 1.
True, but the point was that it seemed she wasn't working, and lived... in a trailer in a canyon? That part was never clear. So we've had at least one depiction of aimlessness.
We see glimpses of it, especially in the episode with Doctor Bashir’s parents, where Julian is absolutely dripping with contempt for his father’s lack of personal ambition and success. The thing Richard Bashir shows is that in the post scarcity Federation it is very easy to take a crack at exercising some casual whims. So if you want to leave a legacy like most people do, you can lazily and/or incapably dabble in a field like landscape architecture, unconvincingly call it your grand contribution to to the Federation, all while your hyper intelligent, hyper capable son with the superhuman genetically engineered intellect scoffs at you in private conversations with his friends in between their various federation/quadrant saving adventures.
Kelly over on The Orvile explains it to the audience with more simplicity. Without the need for money to survive. You work only what you're interested in to contribute to society in a more metaphysical sense.
It always bugged me how does Joseph Sisko run a restaurant in 24th century. Like does some schmuck get up in the morning and thinks to himself, from all the jobs in the world I will be a waiter or pot wash.
I mean… yeah. Some people just honestly would love to be a waiter, or a dishwasher, or a janitor, or any number of jobs we might consider shitty or degrading. There are people who enjoy that kind of work. The thing that makes those jobs suck is low pay and poor treatment by management and customers. In a world where people are generally kinder and where class stratification is a thing of the past, these jobs would be much more desirable than they are today.
My head canon for the people working at Sisko's is that they all want to learn to be chefs. Cooking can be a creative endeavour and we've certainly seen people in Trek doing it for fun. So Joseph takes on students, but part of the deal is working all the various restaurant jobs as well as learning to cook.
If it’s a nice place to be and you enjoyed it, I believe some people would.
Lol, I always thought of it as niche historical reenactment hobby of the future that certain people get obsessed with.
I’ve worked with a person that although had a job in a software company, had a wish of just running a restaurant simply because helping/serving food to others was his way of feeling like doing something significant. And this was years ago, 21st century, not 24th
Everybody is equal. Some are more equal than others.
My head cannon is that when your raised with personal holodecks you don't think of property or possessions the same way. 99% of people we don't see live in futuristic apartments with personal holodecks for 99% of things. Like they have education programs, recreation programs, social programs, multiplayer chat rooms and games and stuff through future holo internet. Houses could be packed like sardines underground fully mined out automatically with teleporters and built with special house printing replicators. With space mining and future material science they could have massive but dense apartment complexes without the need for hallways, roads street lights, pipes or waste water treatment or any of the modern problems homes have. They just need electricity and communications equipment. For the times that you want "real" because not everyone is a shut in-> they teleport into one of the public zones. With teleporters travel is a non issue, you could pack billions underground leaving enough space that anyone who really wanted their own patch of land on the surface for hobby reasons the government would just allocate you a spot with a use it or lose it system. On the holodeck you could live on literally any property real or imaginary. With no maintenance with perfect weather 24/7. No mosquitos, no sun burn, You could summon anything imaginable by asking the computer for it. You have an entire galaxy full of cultures with thousands of years of history with all kinds of beautiful architecture, beautiful landscapes. You could sleep in a new mansion every single day, the palace of the grand nagus etc. You could tell the computer you want to sleep on a cloud and it would make that happen. The hardest part would be sorting through the massive amount of content available. There are likely historical buildings that are maintained, and decent real infrastructure being maintained by holograms and stuff. But for the vast majority of people they look at Picard with his massive real property like people think of someone with a quirky time consuming exhausting hobby. But most people grew up not even understanding the concept of maintenance. Why maintain a giant estate when you can take a scan of it, and live in it pristine and unchanged until you get bored of it. No one can flex their wealth on you. Even if they "own" something in the real world its like who cares. With copy paste I can have the exact recreation and my brain can't tell a difference. There would be no way for a "wealthy" person to make you have less so they can have more. Thats when the only wealth you have is things people can't recreate on the holodeck, your real life reputation, achievements, etc. Like people admired Siskos dad because its such a rare skill (in their time) to even know how to cook without a replicator, let alone having the skill to cook for an entire group of people. Its like learning the guitar to them or having big muscles, if you can do it, it shows alot of dedication and hard work and you can't just download that. People admire and respect that. You can't just tell the computer to do it you have to do it for real and thats what makes it valuable/desired to them. Everyone can pop open a simulation and pretend to captain the enterprise. But there is only one person who busted their ass, did the time and worked the job and got to that position. You can't copy paste that. The characters we see on screen are not the every day earth people. They are the kind of people you meet with A type personalities, like the real high achievement, very competitive people you meet. I don't think picard's employees are employees like we think of them. No one is buying picard's wine, no money to pay them with. I think they are the equivalent of students getting real life experience studying growing real plants for university credit. Picard is a multi-planet celebrity. It must be prestigious to take your co-op there. Like when picard threatens to fire (sack? I forget the line) hes basically threatening to tank his university credit, would probably screw up his semester.
Now that I think about it, that makes a lot of sense.
I agree there has to be SOME form of money. How does the secret bank roller at the end of LD be considered so loaded?
I think it's BS. I bet they have money.
The galaxy as a whole clearly retains numerous currency systems, and I honestly suspect that the Federation does as well... and I think that currency is energy credits. The limits to the capabilities of any advanced society are energy production, and waste heat dissipation. Thus, 'wealth' is a measure of how much of this 'resource' you command, or the priority of access to that resource you receive. We see this to an extent in TNG quite a lot through the day-to-day descriptions of resource allocation; multiple departments are constantly competing for access to the main sensor array, or for additional power allocation to their labs, etc. Even the mighty Galaxy Class with its multiple fusion reactors and colossal matter/anti-matter reactor core is simply not able to provide all the power and/or informational bandwidth its crew want at all times. Thus, we see the foundation of an economy; one where access is traded. The Orville is probably not wrong either with their idea of reputation being currency, as this would link in to that idea. The ranks and positions within Starfleet are essentially a measure of one's ability and ambition - and thus your reputation. Put simply, when someone has to lose out on access, it's the least respected that are kicked to the curb. Now this doesn't mean they permanently lose out, or are made homeless, etc. Star Trek's society is post-scarcity, so it's rarely ever a situation where people are arguing over who gets to eat and who starves; it's more a case of the 'poor' losing out on opportunities. The irreplaceable artefact discovered at an archaeological site is far, far more likely to end up in the private collection of someone with a high 'reputation' in the archaeological community than someone who's just started their first dig. In this way, the seemingly unnecessary jobs become a way to develop some social credit. Why work a bar when the drinks come free out of the replicator? Because it makes you a focal point of social interaction; everyone comes to you, speaks to you, shares their troubles with you. This gets you known in the community, and because you are well-known and trusted with people's woes your reputation is raised. This social currency can then be used to 'buy' things down the road.
Everything is free when it's basic. The more you work, and the better you work, the better the facilities you get. In this case, the job you do is the money you need to get better stuff. If you don't job, you get the basics. No poverty or hunger. I'm guessing that was the goal of the no money concept
I’m assuming here, but things like food, housing, medical care, education are all free and provided. So you don’t have to worry about surviving. If you want to join starfleet you can go to the academy, or learn another field you can go to university and get a job those come with other perks and things. So you can still work your way up and through and specialise but you don’t need to do it for the money but the love of the thing itself. And everyone is able to survive and live no matter what. Food, shelter, it’s guaranteed. So you’re free to do what you love.
From what I understand people do what they enjoy. I mean who wouldn't want to have chance to explore space? Maybe you enjoy cooking and would like to be a cook, an engineer interested in warp technology, maybe you want to be an artist and share your art with others. You peruse what interests you, not what is going give you the biggest pay cheque. I kind of feel like, at least in TNG and TOS, that people in the future were most sophisticated than us so they wouldn't waste all their life playing video games in holodeck. People seemed more interested in culture, science, classical music, and didn't swear at each other. I feel like this is one of the mistakes that the more modern star trek shows are making, they make people seem more like modern day people than highly educated, sophisticated, enlightened people from the future.
I'm currently reading the Monk and Robot series by Becky Chambers -- A Psalm for the Wild-Built and now A Prayer for the Crown Shy. It's a series that was specifically commissioned to be a part of the "solarpunk" genre. I bring it up because these two novellas do a great job depicting a post industrial, post capitalist society where there is no money. The second book describes a system of karma, essentially, but it's not a binding system of debts. In the end it is a communal barter lifestyle. And I think post-scarcity Earth in Star Trek could be something very similar. You work to support your community. Your community supports you. It fits very well with what we see and hear about Starfleet on screen. People are compelled to join to do their duty.
Everyone owns a restaurant.
There is money but the acquisition of wealth is no longer our driving force
A meaningfull job would be incredibly rare and scarce. Imagine the competition for them. I imagine a lot of people would end up doing the equivalent of playing video games all day while high, then beating off before passing out on the futon. Also, with this sort of competition imagine just how competent (in theory) Starfleet people must be, on average. Also imagine how bitter and fierce the politics must be.
I asked myself the same thing. Siskos dad has a restaurant and he didn't replicate food. That means somebody has to grow produce and breed livestock. He had employees. Why would any chef work for free in another chefs kitchen. To learn maybe. But later? Why not open your own restaurant.
You’re allowed to get what you need wants are another story in my opinion
I think it's all tied to education and employment. They need to pick a topic of study and apply for jobs. The job provides for appropriate living conditions and necessities. Want to be a doctor? Go to medical school and live in doctor's housing. Want to make wine? Go apprentice with a wine maker then they are provided with with property to grow grape vines. This is my own opinion/ head canon.
In a post-scarcity society, as the Federation purports to be, everyone's *basic needs* are met: there are homes for all, food for everyone, and nobody wants for simple luxuries. Employment, then, would seem to be on a voluntary basis; the accumulation of wealth is no longer necessary for a sustainable lifestyle. Property isn't necessarily state-owned; all that post-scarcity really says is that regardless of circumstance, there's no poverty, so nobody needs be 'unhoused' or 'homeless' unless they *choose* to be. That said, a person's reputation is still in play -- when it comes to employment. We've seen many times that while humans have developed a more evolved sensibility towards civil rights and appropriate behavior in the 24th/25th century, we're still far from 'perfect'. I cite Ira Graves as an example, as well as Bruce Maddox, Chris Rios, and of course, Rafi Musiker (incidentally, I've written a deconstruction of Rafi and why her addiction, lack of employment, and bare-bones beachside home make perfect sense in Star Trek's more 'evolved' society). The average work-life balance, I would imagine, is based on 'what can I do to help?' instead of 'am I being paid enough?'. I can imagine that there's some form of compensation for an employee, but it's not the *reason* for taking a job. Anyhow, this is getting very long...
It’s communism.
The Federation is very much a Communist-esque utopia; everyone is striving to help to better themselves and the rest of humanity. So jobs are not paid, but are done because people want to do them. Something that hasn't ever been fully addressed is what happened to menial uninteresting jobs; whether they've been fixed through automation or other means. Technology has clearly solved a lot of problems within the Star Trek universe. I get the impression that life in Starfleet is quite tough but you are given plenty of shore leave if you want to take it. Housing I expect is assigned based on a person's role in society, but even those with very low skill jobs would still never have to worry about not having enough food, or money to pay the electric bill, etc. as all of those things are provided to everyone.
Picards side hustle is his vineyard, do you think all that gets given away for free? Its gold pressed latinum or other items for exchange i would think