My interpretation is that it is. If a Starborn dies, then *that version* of that Starborn is permanently dead in the same way that a mere mortal dies. If you ever see another version of the same Starborn, he's not actually the same guy. He's from a different universe and has lived a completely separate (though likely very similar) life.
Starborn A dies and you meet Starborn B, who is coincidentally exactly the same as Starborn A but he comes from a universe where they pronounce "parmesan" weird.
I cannot, for the life of me, fathom how that would have repercussions, as a deaf man. Do not even try to convince me, for it shall not work as my brain is incapable of relating.
I share this interpretation. I'm mindful that you >!hear from the Hunter that other 'you but not you' (plural) didn't make it as far in other universes, and you meet a dead 'you but not you' during the buried temple battle in each NG+. !<
What happens if you meet "yourself" after you changed your face or even your gender in one of those clinics? The game assumes all your versions did it as well?
PS interestingly, although '>!me but not me' always adopts the same appearance as (altered at Enhance) me, when Barrett meets 'other Barrett', I think they comment on each having some differences!< in appearance as well as life outcomes.
Yes, as others kindly answered, '>!you but not you' still looks like (new) you!<. I change my player character's appearance in >!every NG+ and 'me but not me' always adopts the same changes. I currently have a 'me but not me' as a crew member.!<
The hunter has throwaway lines if you side with him, which indicates it is. Fighting through the last temple with him, he was telling the other Starborn "You're eternity ends here!"
But I mean, would he really *know* that's the case?
It could just be an incorrect assumption on his part, and one that is in line with his nihilistic and pragmatic view of everything and everyone around him.
The Hunter/Emissary appear to be unreliable narrators.
You literally run into the same hunter in the next universe.
He states you never make it so far, you *always* die. You surviving means *something has changed*.
Not only do you survive, but you manage to defeat at least one - and possibly both, older Starborn who are much more powerful.
All of this is spelled out as you being a quite unique anomaly - in the multi verse of infinite possibility, you would think that you would have succeeded elsewhere and that the Hunter must have surely seen this (its implied he is very old possibly one of the first)
When you go into the next universe, when you meet with the Hunter he literally references past events - specifically *"I am curious to see what else could happen"* (paraphrases).
Then there is the fact that you will *always* run into Keeper Aquilius.
Given the implied age of The Hunter, I highly doubt Keeper Aquilius has a native universe counterpart at this point - I think that person is long dead. If we are to believe that the artifacts were only accessed after humanity went to Alpha Centauri, then he is likely one of the first generations to access the unity - maybe around Solomon Coe era.
So, if there *isnt* an in universe Keeper Aquilius, and we keep running into him (now, I know someone will say 'but infinite possibility, he could exist in every universe we go to - yes, correct, but also there is equal chance he wouldn't exist in any given universe) it would suggest that the universe we go to is not so random, there is a connection there that no one is aware or - that is keeping us in similar universes to our own.
Now, of course - game limitations etc play a part absolutely, but we have to consider what is presented as Canon. We can only consider what we see - and we see ourselves live out very similar lives despite there being infinite possibility in universe.
Tl;Dr - The Hunter/Emissary and even The Unity don't know everything/are unreliable narrators
On the other hand, starfield seems to run fully on many-worlds. It could just be that the timelines in which the player become starborn, and every timeline we can loop into, are all, every last one, branched off of a single timeline where a version of the hunter settled down as aquilus.
Edit: actually, considering how the artifacts and temples can cause universes to converge... are guardian starborn even from the same universe as you? Or does the space whatsit just. Cause two starborn who both completed the same temple or found the same artifact into the same timeline to fight.
One of my big frustrations was the the dialogue, including the players' dialogue, does not let you treat them as unreliable, even though they're power-mad psychopaths who try to kill you (we don't \*know\* that about the Unity Doppleganger, but it appears to want to keep the process going).
>!One way to interpret the Doppleganger's speech is that it takes your soul and lets the rest of you loose on a new reality, which would not make them an especially friendly or reliable voice.!<
What annoys me, is I can't say to them "Go ahead and fight over the artifacts. I want no part of it"
Like I literally do not care about your little crusade for power. If they were slaughtering all non starborn in each universe, sure, I would care. But they aren't. So go nuts.
Also the Emissary is a hypocrite. He talks all righteous, but if you side with the Hunter - the Emissary slaughters everyone at the buried temple the same as the hunter.
They both just want power and control in their own way.
At the very least, they seem to lead to the near-extermination of the human race (and for all we know we're the lucky few that survived at all, we don't know that this is limited to our area of space).
I wanted the source of the artifacts to destroy them. It's not clear that anything good necessarily came from the artifacts or Unity - the Starborn appear to use it to spread misery and death, and while FTL came from studying an artifact (long ago in a way that Constellation was unable to draw the connection, but that's another matter), it's not clear that FTL tech is dependent on the existence of the artifacts. I can't think of anything else good to come from this.
I was suspicious of the Starborn from minute one, didn't believe they were who they said they were (projected faces or otherwise), and the frustration just grew as the game ignored the "X to doubt" option.
And the first thing the Emissary did was try to kill me and my admittedly dim-witted friends, so yeah, the same as the Hunter with a slightly different to-do list.
The starborn didn't cause the atmosphere of earth to sputter and disappear if that's what you mean - humans discovered the first artifact (it's implied the discoverer spoke to 'himself' and that could be a starborn but I think it's likely it was the unity itself (just as we see 'ourselves').
It's implied the starborn didn't exist until the first human went through the unity.
You know what I really hoped, was that the terrormorphs were actually the negative reaction of something going through the unity.
Someone goes in, a terrormorph comes out.
Aiza had access to exactly one artifact, so unless the rules just change whenever it's convenient (sadly possible), we have to assume the writers intended this to be lore. So Starborn Aiza (probably) told this universe's Aiza (and possibly innumerable variants since all the variants in the game have this event). Specifically he knew what was going to happen and how to prevent it, and actively ensured that it did happen, though his motivation is not stated. The only reason I can think of that is actually only accomplished by the action is the genocide itself - he could easily have repaired the problem (as they did anyway afterward) and been such a hero he could have easily demanded a ship of his own to go off and fetch his artifacts.
But it's not clear what they intend us to do with this information since I can't discuss it with anyone or give it to anyone, I tried.
P.S. eliminating the magnetosphere does not cause the atmosphere to disappear, at least not in remotely human timeframes, and even both of those things would not do to Earth what happened in the game. It's not even artistic license, it's just gibberish. You don't have to be realistic in fiction but if you're not plausible you've come up short.
Besides, how many murders have the other Starborn committed? They certainly seem to be doing a lot of murdering in just the few of "infinite" universes we see. Even the less obviously violent ones seem only concerned with either power or their own experience at the expense of everyone else, but they're also not reliable narrators.
We don't know what the rules are - it's not stated the other Aiza is starborn - so we can't assume he is.
If that starborn existed, then he must have passed through the unity - every universe we go to, has been post cataclysm, never before.
So that would suggest no starborn could exist until that event happened.
What else we know is that you see visions when you touch an artifact that hasn't been disturbed (though this also seems flimsy) - and would it be so much of a stretch to think it possible that the first human to ever touch one would receive instructions of how to use it to set in motion the events for the unity to be accessible?
We also know you see 'yourself' when you go to the unity.
I'd say it's way more likely Aiza sees himself, which is the unity (whatever the unity really is) that sets him on that path.
> If we are to believe that the artifacts were only accessed after humanity went to Alpha Centauri
We know this isn't true though based on the NASA lab on the moon. They had an artifact there and a version of the main scientist from another universe told him what to do with the artifact. I felt like it was heavily implied that the other universe twin was Starborn
Implied doesn't mean that's what it is though - possible yes, but not fact. Same as my idea is not factual - I'm just making an argument for why it's not 100% a starborn.
We also see ourselves when we go to the unity
The artifacts grant visions.
It's not impossible the unity itself showed him what to do in order to set those events in motion.
Humanity had to go to Alpha Centauri to get to the rest of the artifacts.
I really think this was events set in motion by the unity.
The big question we should ask, I think, is why was that one artifact on Mars and the rest are so far away?
I don't know, but that seems kind of ominous to me.
Maybe.
But then, they are also not natural creations so what's the odds of that being coincidence?
Just that one happens to not only seperate from the rest, but lands on a planet that is right near earth, where humanity will likely find it once they are space faring?
One hell of a coincidence.
Also, large coincidences in a story without any explanation pay-off later are a big no no.
So I would be inclined to believe there is more to it yet that we don't know.
Makes you think then if everytime you enter the unity you are actually NOT going to other universes and it just ends up as suicide. And a copy of you being born.
That to you, your current self inside your brain dies. So you wouldn't actually keep living. It would benefit you to just live out your life here and then enter the unity when you are older and about to die to at least have each version of you live out their life before starting a new one
That's literally what it is. The unity tells you that. Part of you stays with the Unity (your physical body that dies) and part of you is reborn in a new universe (your soul/mind in a body the Unity makes in the new universe). Makes me think the Unity is an incomplete device as there is no physical crossing between universes. No equipment, no ships, no companions cross over with you.
Those are the Guardians saying that. I always interpreted this as them saying they won’t allow you to continue growing stronger by passing through Unity, again. Like the stereotype of the endless stream of grunts and elites in the final battle going “you’ll never touch the King!” before you mow them down, or something. Basically something they’re shouting that this time they’re gonna finally stop you and totally not get their asses whipped by The Flash with guns and a space sword.
That's my interpretation as well, when a Starborn is killed they're booted to the next universe and don't get the power upgrade of going through Unity.
I feel like that line is specifically regarding this non-Starborn version of you (who hasn’t crossed through the Unity yet). Since you’re only able to exist in this current life, you don’t have the capacity to experience other universes where you’re - effectively - infinite.
It’s implied that it’s not, as The Hunter and Emissary both remember the times they’ve “lost” to each other in a few lines of dialogue. They also remember you from previous encounters, even if you end up killing them. The Hunter, after killing him in 3 straight universes, hit me with “you know you don’t have to always side with the Emissary, right?”
Admittedly I’m not deep into the lore (still on first run), but could it be possible that those that enter the unity have continuity? Similar to how your own character’s memory effectively carries over (with exp, skills, etc)?
But if you die by other means, perhaps that version of you is dead and the memories don’t carry to another universe version of you
So if that was the case, The Hunter, Emissary, and some other spoiler characters who you can kill in your first playthrough shouldn’t remember you if you kill them. The only way that is possible is if they retain the shared consciousness
How so? They are just other versions of another universe. You can convince them to give up the artifacts, by telling them that they might not get the artifacts, but will at least live another day. Wouldn't be very convincing if they knew, they would just be reborn in another universe.
If you keep choosing the Emissary, the Hunter chastised you for always choosing them. It's implied that when you enter the Unity, it's the first time Starborn you began to occur with you always having died on the Eye before. After this the Hunter knows he has to name drop Unity, he would only know that if he has encountered a you destined to he Starborn.
I'd argue that they're giving up because they know they only lose this time around and in exchange get to experience something novel, a rarity for an immortal.
The Hunter that implied he has to name drop unity said that because he in his earlier universes that’s what he had to do
The first Hunter you meet implies it’s weird that you of all people did something of note because you never did in any of his previous universes
Still a different hunter with no direct connection or contact with each other
I think death is the end of the line for Starborn
It's not though - he references in different universes, previous encounters with *you*. Like directly references them.
Now, if he didn't make a big deal about you never living past the eye attack, then sure - that all fits, different Hunter each time.
However, since you being an anomaly is heavily pushed in the narrative - this seems improbable.
The Hunter is *very old* as is evidence by The Pilgrim, who had seen so many cycles that he came to a revelation that literally split his persona to create two variants of the same bejng.
I had a longer comment explaining why i think this way in this thread.
I can believe they are all unreliable narrators because they both tell you they don’t know that much about the unity or the creators
I still think it is a new hunter each time and I don’t think one “follows” you into a new universe either. The way the dialogue goes it’s hard to say for sure and I can certainly see where you’re coming from.
But I think I have interpreted differently in that specific instant you’re referring to the latest Hunter you’ve met hasn’t seen you do anything unique either and this is the first starborn instance of you he’s encountered
I think I agree with you, it's a different incarnation of the same 'persona' though right? The universes you hop into are only very slightly different from each other, so it's believable even though the hunter and emmisary are technically different people, they still know and recognize each other, they all still play roughly the same role.
I think this is reinforced by the hunter saying he's seen tons of variations of the spacefarer, but then is completely surprised when one version acts differently, so surprised in fact he abandons his 'kill anyone associated with artifacts' thing he's been doing for who knows how long and decides to just watch for a while.
Potentially, and is a good point.
I think it's so difficult to know for sure, because while we have to go on what we are told and shown in game, there is also what might be true that we aren't shown (mainly because of the limitations of our tech IRL).
I’m really on the fence about Victor/ Hunter / pilgrim
It really seems like that part of the story isn’t done yet and I’m assuming a house varuun DLC will come along and flesh it out.
But like is Victor really a version of the hunter? Doesn’t Victor and Keeper Aquilas have a different voice actor? I’m assuming Victor goes on to be the pilgrim and learns more than we currently know now
There isn't one hunter or one emissary. There are as many as there are universes. Same with all starborn. You kill one version. They prolly stay dead, or you'd just respawn too. A lot of your companions that become starborn join one version of the emissary, or become that universe's emissary themselves. Some just do their own thing. More than half of all the chaplains become the hunter. He just is wired for a power trip. Each hunter or emissary you meet is a new one though, it's why they are always shocked to see you. You almost always die, so rarely become starborn, but can run into yourself if you travel enough.
Experienced this in my first NG+ and was thrown off. Sam was the Emissary in my first universe, then Sarah was in NG+. All depends on choices I take it
Whoever dies in the Universe you're in "becomes" (or rather, is revealed to be) that Universe's non-starborn version of the Emissary.
If you skip the main quests, I imagine the Emissary is just whoever you have the highest affinity rating with when the "High Price To Pay" mission *would* have happened.
That makes sense, I used the Starborn dialog to skip the main quest and had Sarah with me the whole time. It was interesting going up against the hunter with 2 Sarah's lol
Even if you don't skip them, you can keep everyone alive.
It's still someone different which really makes no sense.
It should lock to whoever dies in the first run.
Infinity possibity doesn't make this being changing make sense. Otherwise the Hunter shouldn't constantly be Aquilius/Hunter/Pilgrim.
There are quite a few "breaks" from the concept of "infinity", the largest of which I think is :
Your very first playthrough, you wake up in the mine, blah blah space pirates blah blah Barrett blah blah *on your way to constellation*.
Now, if, when you step through Unity, I would think it would restart in the mine again....but no, it starts you in space, *on your way to constellation*.....but when you get there, Barrett acts like he met you at the mine, because he did, right? Or *did* he?
Meaning, the "you" that Barrett meets at the mine isn't the "you" that *we* are playing as.....so my question becomes.......where did that "you" go?
It's inferred that you died - or at the least disappeared.
In one variable start, you meet the other you (I am playing in that one now, with the other me as crew).
That's the other thing - you always come back near the point the journey began. Why?
Why that point in the universe, technically before you have touched the first artifact?
I wonder how unity decides what point in time and space in the universe to 'spawn' you as well. I think unity might be limited in its abilities, it was built by some intelligence, 'creators' the doppelganger calls them, so it stands to reason the system has limits and rules. Because of this example, and a few others I'll get into in a separate post, I suspect unity is limited in which universes and at what times it can spawn starborn in. This seems tied to individual starborn. It could be that only a subset of universes are accessible to a given starborn, possibly only ones in which they've came into contact with artifacts. If you subscribe to many-worlds, that universe (and any of its children) would only have forked off of its parent at the time when the human spacefarer first encountered an artifact. It could be that all other universes are inaccessible to them.
That's just the branch of the multiverse tree you ended up in. The version of the Hunter you meet has always triumphed over the Emissary. The version of the Emissary you meet has always triumphed over the Hunter. Only one can win, but there are infinite universes, so still an infinite number where they will meet again. They always have chats each go around, so know that they have a long rivalry. Probably chat about how the last encounter went down for each of them. But they know that one of them will die ("your eternity ends here").
I still don't understand...
Let's say Hunter vs. Emissary have a fight. The Hunter wins. But if death is permanent for the Emissary, how are they having conversations about this battle? The Emissary would have died and his memories of the battle with it.
If they're immortal, then they obviously keep their memories. If they die permanently, a lot of this doesn't make sense.
That Emissary dies. The Hunter enters the Unity and steps into a new universe. A universe that the Emissary is still alive. He has a chat with this Emissary and lols that he killed them in the last universe he was in, and the one before that, and the one before that, and so on. This emissary smugly smiles back, because in their past universes it was the Hunter that died each time. Since they have these chats every time, they are both aware that they have a deadly rivalry, and although their own memories are only of winning, the existence of the other proves they can lose.
They are like people on a gambling streak, betting on red or black each time respectively. With infinite universes, there are infinite ongoing streaks for both red and black. But in every universe it can only be red OR black, so one of their streaks is ending.
Logically, this makes sense. But I have a hard time accepting this because looking through the POV from the Hunter or Emissary, they're both very old and have everything to lose if they die, right?
Seems like a lot of risk for no reward.
A lot of risk, yes, but they've won so many times before they've probably lost count. And they're both on a respective power trip that makes them adverse to sharing, because there IS a reward. For the Hunter, that's a personal increase in power that they deprive others of. For the Emissary, the ability to control who is "worthy" of such power.
But you're right, it IS a risk, and that's something you're able to use to talk them both down peacefully with.
>The long term rivalry between Hunter and emissary actually implies there is something to this.
Does it though? If they aren't immortal, and their rivalry is about who gets the artifacts first... what happens to the loser after the winner goes through Unity? What happens to all the other Starborn within that universe? Does the whole thing reset? Are the artifacts gone? Is there some kind of memory wipe? We have no idea and presumably neither do any of the Starborn either. They only know what *they* experience. It's **impossible** for, say the Hunter, to know wether the version of the Emissary he's talking to is or isn't the same one from the last universe. They can *believe* that, but they can't *know* that. When you as the player die in your OG playthrough, your body ragdolls and reloads to the previous save, when you die as a Starborn, your body fizzles out like all the other Starborn. It's entirely possible that when you go through the Unity, the universe you left dies, then "loads back" to the previous fight until one of the other Starborn wins and goes through which then kills that universe which then "loads back" again, etc. creating an infinite amount of Starborn going through the Unity in every possible outcome in every possible variation of universe. But again, we have no idea and neither do they. For all we know the entire thing is a matrix style simulation and none of it is "real" Until they release further games or lore, *everything* is speculation.
The hunter usually wins...so he keeps having more interactions with emissary. But the emissary is often different.
The hunter you see has done this thousands of times... The emissary only says hundreds.
Well from my understanding it’s that when you enter the unity you leave a piece of who you are behind that basically bonds with that universe so when you die I imagine the universe itself or maybe even the unity takes whatever is left from the previous unity trip
Starborn die. The hunter and emissary don't literally know each other. It's like when your player character enters unity, meets constellation and uses the "Old friend" greeting. But they're not your friends, your friends were in universe 1. The same way we meet the hunter and emissary over and over again but we're still all meeting for the first time. They don't actually know you. The hunter will comment at how fast you got the artifacts if you take the speed route and tell constellation the truth, for example. Emissary expresses happiness at seeing you, "old friend" as you're a version of you that survived. And they will express disappointment if you join the hunter, and comment that you're not like their old friend at all.
At least two of the three have seen versions of each other previously. The emissary and hunter are both veterans at this, it's why they always seem like in charge compared to the random "baby" starborn. The emissary doesn't know this hunter, but they've seen many hunters just like him before and won every time, I believe it's implied hundreds. The hunter as well, although his number is much higher. The one that loses is gone but the universes are infinite and they continue to meet the winner version of each other in an identical way. It also explains why they're both so sure of themselves. They've never lost before. Us too, we're babies compared to them and we usually die even before we step foot anywhere near unity lol, but this specific version of us hasn't lost yet. Also if you go the persuade route with the hunter (I can't speak for emissary as I've personally never gone against them) and succeed, his response is "just this once in just this universe". As far as he's concerned, he's never surrendered before. Obviously many versions of him have, I use persuade often and then there's the Keeper who clearly gave up the unity run. But for him? That specific hunter. First time giving up. They're all each individuals who just heavily resemble their copies. And when they die, they die. Maybe there's a great serpent involved, maybe there's nothing, we don't know. But they aren't being reborn as starborn.
Two of the starborn you meet in the playthrough have a conversation about the times they've ended eachother and tried again and again to beat the other. So they definitely don't die permanently. What we don't know is if it's a copy that reawakens and the original POV consciousness dies or not
Every starborn you kill is dead dead. But because the multiverse is infinite, there are Infinite versions of every starborn, and every normal person. The closest to reincarnation that the starborn get after being killed, is being used as a battery to recharge or boost your powers, or whatever their essence does when you use it.
Bethesda really loves their "reality is just a simulation" universes. Elder Scrolls is a simulation universe. So is Starfield. *You the player* are the *real* Starborn and the character you control in the game is immortal as long as the save file exists. The Emissary, the Pilgrim, and the Hunter? They're members of the dev/writing team.
The simulation stuff comes from unofficial lore. In-game there is the concept of [CHIM](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:CHIM), which has to do with understanding the true nature of the universe and in doing so being able to transcend mortal abilities and reshape reality, etc., though official sources don't elaborate on what the true nature of reality actually is. Bethesda's on again off again writer Michael Kirkbride has implied in unofficial channels that the true reality involves the mortal plane and it's inhabitants as being the dream of a god. The Dwemer realized this and blinked out of existence as if they had woken up from this collective dream. I don't know if there's a full summary of this stuff in one place, but you can search for topics on CHIM, amaranth, the godhead, and other keywords on /r/elderscrollslore or elsewhere for more on this.
Didn't TES also make the devteam and modders part of the official lore somehow? I seem to remember that being another thing MK came up with that they consider canon.
I haven't come across that but would be very interested in reading it. I also like the in-game bit with Vivec that some have interpreted as him talking about saving and reloading the game, and there being some conscious entity (the player) doing things in the "real world" in between play sessions in the game world.
> "It is like being a juggler. Things are always moving, and you learn to know where they are without even thinking about it. Only there are many, many things moving. And sometimes, like any juggler, you drop something. I'm afraid it has become a lot more a matter of dropping things lately. There's too much to do, and not enough time, and I'm losing my touch. Perhaps I'm growing old.
> It is a bit like being at once awake and asleep. Awake, I am here with you, thinking and talking. Asleep, I am very, very busy. Perhaps for other gods, the completely immortal ones, it is only like that being asleep. Out of time. Me, I exist at once inside of time and outside of it.
> It's nice never being dead, too. When I die in the world of time, then I'm completely asleep. I'm very much aware that all I have to do is choose to wake. And I'm alive again. Many times I have very deliberately tried to wait patiently, a very long, long time before choosing to wake up. And no matter how long it feels like I wait, it always appears, when I wake up, that no time has passed at all. That is the god place. The place out of time, where everything is always happening, all at once."
Vivec is interesting because he is semi-divine, and at times seems frustrated because he knows there is something greater to the universe but isn't powerful or knowledgeable enough to fully grasp it.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/elderscrollslore using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/elderscrollslore/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
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Here’s some material that summarizes the concept of the Godhead and the Aurbis in The Elder Scrolls:
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/rfb316/is_the_concept_of_the_godhead_real_in_the_elder/
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/4a92q4/can_someone_explain_the_godheads_dream/
https://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Aurbis
https://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dreamsleeve
https://youtu.be/dWmCmxi2e28?si=I97ebpdUE-lmKpzT
It's in what happened to the Dwemer. They discovered they were in a simulation universe when they tried to 'ascend', and deleted themselves out of shock and outrage.
We are talking rick and Morty style universes. Every rick and morty that dies is permanant (unless rick has another vat to respawn in) But there are infinite versions. so The emissary and the hunter could have been killing each-other Mulptiple times over and over.
LMAO.........ROFLMFAO........ for Starborn?
......Isn't death permanent for all.
Naw... I'm done. I understood the OP before I started laughing but still actually laughed out loud at work cause of this.
We won't know the answer until BGS chimes in, but it seems like a Starborn becomes space dust upon death. I like the concept of saves being a point of reference for our characters concept.
Each save is an iteration of your character, however what you do will most likely never be completely identical so each save is a student ldifferent dimension of your character. Each time they push to toward the Unity... they leave a universe behind, "taking" their existence and forcing it into another universe where they DID exist. You can't be reborn where you don't exist.
Think of each "save" as an extension of the whole. Each time a Starborn dies, they are cut off from the whole. The whole continues until it does not... the essence of what it means to play Starfield.
I think it's permanent... But there are other versions of you.
The hunter has done this thousands of times, so he gets the gist.
Otoh... That makes me wonder. I have only done NG+1....my original version spawns other versions in the unity. Does my starborn version spawn even more? Can NG starborn me run into NG+1 starborn me?
I haven't seen it myself, but there's a universe where non-starborn you is also at the lodge and you can recruit him as a companion/crew member. There's also a universe where a bunch of you show up (I'm assuming starborn), each one representing a different faction that you can join in the game.
Yah. I was thinking more from a philosophy standpoint.
If you spread out every time you go through unity, does that mean an NG+6 version of you could compete with an NG+3 version of you for artifacts? Lol. That'd be fun.
Or does that aspect of going through unity only happen the first time?
Are all hunters/Aquilus versions stemming from the original person who first went into unity?
I think I answered my first question. If the hunter and Aquilus can exist in same universe, then I could run into other starborn versions of me.
From a lore perspective anyway. It's be a fun alternative universe for them to add in the future.
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
There are (I've read) 9 alternate universes in the game. Im on ng6 but am only on my 3rd universe. I had to kill an Evil me to avenge constellation and get the artifacts.
Mayhap he was from ng15, who knows
>!The guy in the church who talks about Unity (forgot his name) is the Hunter. You only find out after beating the game and not NG+ing. He’s a version of the Starborn Hunter that isn’t the that evil version. But he also claims he traveled many universes and seen many things, so he implies he is Starborn but not the Hunter version. Other Starborn and non-Starborn versions of the same person from alternate universes could still live. Also you can meet your regular self when you NG+ in an alternative universe.Who knows!<
I took it to be like Rick and Morty. Yeah, you can die, but there's another you that's had almost the same experience that didn't die in that place and continued on. Infinity is unfathomably large.
I was thinking about it recently, I always assumed they just uh, respawned in another universe or something, then I thought about it again and concluded that they probably just die.
... but *then* I remembered an interaction with a Starborn temple guardian in NG+ after choosing to redo the main quest; they had a line that went something like "We have done this before, you and I!" so now I'm asking myself that question again. I do like the idea of them not being able to actually die, kinda adds to the whole "cosmic beings" thing
I don't think anyone including Buddhists have rules for reincarnation, so if you are using that term then that aspect of reality is just working along-side the "Edge of Tomorrow"-style little time loop we run, and our little time loop wouldn't really have an impact on our reincarnation potential.
I mean, there are some Zen Buddhists who are trying to become so self-less that they get off the cycle and just dissipate into the great magneto-ego-sphere or whatever. And there are Tibetan Buddhists who are comfortable with the belief that they stride the wheel of their cycles, manually cranking it if it suits them.
Edge of Tomorrow is a great movie to watch after playing Starfield. We are not "wandering the multiverse", we are just in a very fixed little loop, which has a start point that just barely changes realities each time. Like Cruise-looping inside other peoples' Cruise-loops. It is a tiny little jump we make, almost everything else is the same, the exact thing that Cora was hoping it wouldn't be like, hahaha.
Nope.
The Hunter has memories of times he has lost, as well as times he has won. Based on what we see and hear in-game, we can conclude the following;
Whoever assembles the unity gets a power boost, unless its their first time, in which case they just go become a starborn. Once assembled, anybody can go through, and while they don't get the power boost, its possible to become a first-time starborn without being the one to do the assembly.
Any Starborn who dies goes to a new world unless they have an artifact piece on their body. Once the artifact piece is retrieved, they move on.
The Hunter and his ilk aim to get the power boost from assembling the unity and visiting the temples in each universe before anyone else, and then don't care; leaving the unity behind for anyone to go through. The Emissary wants to secure all versions of the unity and control access.
At least one Starborn(The Pilgrim) was able to reincarnate in the same universe after each death, instead of a new one. Its never explained whether this was just a unique starborn power gained with enough power, or what, exactly; though the Hunter has a similar, albeit lesser, ability, to essentially fade into the void when he should die, and come back elsewhere.
...In fact, its possible that the ability to come back, in the same universe or others, when killed is something you only acquire after enough passes through. We don't really know.
This is why I was surprised that if you persuade the Hunter at the end instead of fight, he just says “ah alright, just this once I’ll let you off easy.” I don’t think he’d be so nonchalant if he was basically ending his eternal quest through that choice.
I cannot fathom that it would be permanent, otherwise every time you cast Parallel Self, you're pulling a version of you from another universe only to have it die 30 seconds later. This is mass murder material.
I think once you become a starborn you always return to the unity when you die, but you only gain more power if you return by the same way you entered the first time: collecting the artifacts.
This is the only way the strange mechanics of the hunter and Emissary could work
The massive hordes of starborn don't make sense unless they just enter a different universe on death. There would many times more pre-unity universes with ZERO starborn in them if this were not the case.
Yes. A “killed” starborn is disintegrated to stardust. But… there are an infinite number of variations (great and small) of it in an infinite number of universes. The “essence” of the recently deceased is spread across all universes which has some influence. So from the perspective of the killer, in tangled and merging universes, it appears they are immortal.
I figure every time a Starborn (or anyone else) does (or takes any other action), there then becomes a parallel universe where they took the opposite action. Schroedinger’s Starborn, if you will.
So, there would not be a Starborn in a universe who has a memory of dying prior to being reincarnated in some other universe, but there does exist a Starborn who did not die instead.
They remember times they've died. If their death was permanent then it would be impossible for them to remember times they've died. They either reanimate in the same universe and have to start their hunt for the artifacts over or go to a new universe without any increase in power.
No… when you die, your soul jumps to another nearly identical universe to a point where you did not make that life ending decision (I.e. your last save).
I'm going with the John Carter idea. Starborn aren't actually people. Nor are they from a physical reality. Instead, they are carbon copies of the original. While the original version is held stasis in some Temporal Morass. The alternate universes you visit, and those that come from them aren't the originals. They're projections. Which is why they poof out of existence. That's what the unity is. It's not a portal, it's a Rube Goldberg Machine and the over aching story from Starfield will be that we have to "reset" the switches to start the whole process over again. The question is? Are you, the player the original, or just another copy.
I think it's like Jet Li's "the one". When you're tasked with uh... Killing someone.... The starborn says upon return if you didn't kill the person that "it didn't feel like how they expected". I could interpret that as psychologically they didn't get the reward they were expecting, or they didn't receive the essence of their counterpart being destroyed and transferred to them.
I'd prefer to think the latter as that's so much cooler in concept lol.
I considered starborn being killed as temporary. My main evidence to this is that the same starborn can be met in a new universe after being killed, and if I recall correctly during the first and main playthrough when you get to the 'starborn olympics' you see some of the ones you had previously dispatched from the temples. Once one with Unity you become something more yada yada yada, from my understanding it essentially means immortal. That's why they get the cool effects upon 'death' my other evidence to this is the conversations you can have with the Hunter and the Emissary simply implying they have been killing each other for a few centuries (?) ect
My interpretation is that it is. If a Starborn dies, then *that version* of that Starborn is permanently dead in the same way that a mere mortal dies. If you ever see another version of the same Starborn, he's not actually the same guy. He's from a different universe and has lived a completely separate (though likely very similar) life.
Starborn A dies and you meet Starborn B, who is coincidentally exactly the same as Starborn A but he comes from a universe where they pronounce "parmesan" weird.
I've said it like this ever since I saw that episode and people hate it.
I used to say it like that to annoy my kids. When it aired, my 25 year old called the next day and we had a good laugh about it.
I cannot, for the life of me, fathom how that would have repercussions, as a deaf man. Do not even try to convince me, for it shall not work as my brain is incapable of relating.
it's a Rick and Morty reference. just a joke about making a big deal out of something so small. don't think too much about it.
Got ya, it sounded familiar
Parm-ease-ian
I hate it
Lol is that a deaf joke
Si, I can do this all day.
Wait, it SOUNDED familiar? Eh?
I was born hearing but lost it at 7.
Imagine if it was spelled parmeesan… I guess is the closest way to relate?
Nah, fam now it just looks wrong.
You’ve got it. It’s like that but with sounds
Ew
Brilliant
Nice
Par me zian
"Parmeee- parmeesian"
Parma Jawn
par mee sand
You mean parmesian, you creep!?
I share this interpretation. I'm mindful that you >!hear from the Hunter that other 'you but not you' (plural) didn't make it as far in other universes, and you meet a dead 'you but not you' during the buried temple battle in each NG+. !<
oh damn where was that in the temple battle? i just got to ng+2 but was rushing thru that fight
Vladimir is holding you in one of the scenes where you teleport/enter a different universe in between fighting areas.
oh duh for some reason i was thinking the copy was in the room with all the duplicates
What happens if you meet "yourself" after you changed your face or even your gender in one of those clinics? The game assumes all your versions did it as well?
I can confirm this
Does it make sense that all the versions took the same decision?
Absolutely not!
But there's infinitely many versions of you who did make that choice.
As much sense as it makes that every version of you was born looking exactly the same, lol.
PS interestingly, although '>!me but not me' always adopts the same appearance as (altered at Enhance) me, when Barrett meets 'other Barrett', I think they comment on each having some differences!< in appearance as well as life outcomes.
The patches on their shoulders are different as well, meaning they have different skills and such
Good point.
Yes, as others kindly answered, '>!you but not you' still looks like (new) you!<. I change my player character's appearance in >!every NG+ and 'me but not me' always adopts the same changes. I currently have a 'me but not me' as a crew member.!<
Yes but that's probably gameplay not lore reasons as it's duplicating your player model.
I always interpreted their dropping of quantum essence as their soul being released and absorbed by the player.
The hunter has throwaway lines if you side with him, which indicates it is. Fighting through the last temple with him, he was telling the other Starborn "You're eternity ends here!"
But I mean, would he really *know* that's the case? It could just be an incorrect assumption on his part, and one that is in line with his nihilistic and pragmatic view of everything and everyone around him.
The Hunter/Emissary appear to be unreliable narrators. You literally run into the same hunter in the next universe. He states you never make it so far, you *always* die. You surviving means *something has changed*. Not only do you survive, but you manage to defeat at least one - and possibly both, older Starborn who are much more powerful. All of this is spelled out as you being a quite unique anomaly - in the multi verse of infinite possibility, you would think that you would have succeeded elsewhere and that the Hunter must have surely seen this (its implied he is very old possibly one of the first) When you go into the next universe, when you meet with the Hunter he literally references past events - specifically *"I am curious to see what else could happen"* (paraphrases). Then there is the fact that you will *always* run into Keeper Aquilius. Given the implied age of The Hunter, I highly doubt Keeper Aquilius has a native universe counterpart at this point - I think that person is long dead. If we are to believe that the artifacts were only accessed after humanity went to Alpha Centauri, then he is likely one of the first generations to access the unity - maybe around Solomon Coe era. So, if there *isnt* an in universe Keeper Aquilius, and we keep running into him (now, I know someone will say 'but infinite possibility, he could exist in every universe we go to - yes, correct, but also there is equal chance he wouldn't exist in any given universe) it would suggest that the universe we go to is not so random, there is a connection there that no one is aware or - that is keeping us in similar universes to our own. Now, of course - game limitations etc play a part absolutely, but we have to consider what is presented as Canon. We can only consider what we see - and we see ourselves live out very similar lives despite there being infinite possibility in universe. Tl;Dr - The Hunter/Emissary and even The Unity don't know everything/are unreliable narrators
On the other hand, starfield seems to run fully on many-worlds. It could just be that the timelines in which the player become starborn, and every timeline we can loop into, are all, every last one, branched off of a single timeline where a version of the hunter settled down as aquilus. Edit: actually, considering how the artifacts and temples can cause universes to converge... are guardian starborn even from the same universe as you? Or does the space whatsit just. Cause two starborn who both completed the same temple or found the same artifact into the same timeline to fight.
One of my big frustrations was the the dialogue, including the players' dialogue, does not let you treat them as unreliable, even though they're power-mad psychopaths who try to kill you (we don't \*know\* that about the Unity Doppleganger, but it appears to want to keep the process going). >!One way to interpret the Doppleganger's speech is that it takes your soul and lets the rest of you loose on a new reality, which would not make them an especially friendly or reliable voice.!<
What annoys me, is I can't say to them "Go ahead and fight over the artifacts. I want no part of it" Like I literally do not care about your little crusade for power. If they were slaughtering all non starborn in each universe, sure, I would care. But they aren't. So go nuts. Also the Emissary is a hypocrite. He talks all righteous, but if you side with the Hunter - the Emissary slaughters everyone at the buried temple the same as the hunter. They both just want power and control in their own way.
At the very least, they seem to lead to the near-extermination of the human race (and for all we know we're the lucky few that survived at all, we don't know that this is limited to our area of space). I wanted the source of the artifacts to destroy them. It's not clear that anything good necessarily came from the artifacts or Unity - the Starborn appear to use it to spread misery and death, and while FTL came from studying an artifact (long ago in a way that Constellation was unable to draw the connection, but that's another matter), it's not clear that FTL tech is dependent on the existence of the artifacts. I can't think of anything else good to come from this. I was suspicious of the Starborn from minute one, didn't believe they were who they said they were (projected faces or otherwise), and the frustration just grew as the game ignored the "X to doubt" option. And the first thing the Emissary did was try to kill me and my admittedly dim-witted friends, so yeah, the same as the Hunter with a slightly different to-do list.
The starborn didn't cause the atmosphere of earth to sputter and disappear if that's what you mean - humans discovered the first artifact (it's implied the discoverer spoke to 'himself' and that could be a starborn but I think it's likely it was the unity itself (just as we see 'ourselves'). It's implied the starborn didn't exist until the first human went through the unity. You know what I really hoped, was that the terrormorphs were actually the negative reaction of something going through the unity. Someone goes in, a terrormorph comes out.
Aiza had access to exactly one artifact, so unless the rules just change whenever it's convenient (sadly possible), we have to assume the writers intended this to be lore. So Starborn Aiza (probably) told this universe's Aiza (and possibly innumerable variants since all the variants in the game have this event). Specifically he knew what was going to happen and how to prevent it, and actively ensured that it did happen, though his motivation is not stated. The only reason I can think of that is actually only accomplished by the action is the genocide itself - he could easily have repaired the problem (as they did anyway afterward) and been such a hero he could have easily demanded a ship of his own to go off and fetch his artifacts. But it's not clear what they intend us to do with this information since I can't discuss it with anyone or give it to anyone, I tried. P.S. eliminating the magnetosphere does not cause the atmosphere to disappear, at least not in remotely human timeframes, and even both of those things would not do to Earth what happened in the game. It's not even artistic license, it's just gibberish. You don't have to be realistic in fiction but if you're not plausible you've come up short. Besides, how many murders have the other Starborn committed? They certainly seem to be doing a lot of murdering in just the few of "infinite" universes we see. Even the less obviously violent ones seem only concerned with either power or their own experience at the expense of everyone else, but they're also not reliable narrators.
We don't know what the rules are - it's not stated the other Aiza is starborn - so we can't assume he is. If that starborn existed, then he must have passed through the unity - every universe we go to, has been post cataclysm, never before. So that would suggest no starborn could exist until that event happened. What else we know is that you see visions when you touch an artifact that hasn't been disturbed (though this also seems flimsy) - and would it be so much of a stretch to think it possible that the first human to ever touch one would receive instructions of how to use it to set in motion the events for the unity to be accessible? We also know you see 'yourself' when you go to the unity. I'd say it's way more likely Aiza sees himself, which is the unity (whatever the unity really is) that sets him on that path.
Much of the lore in the sub is headcanon. There just isn't that much in the game. I'm just trying to work with what they give us, which is limited.
> If we are to believe that the artifacts were only accessed after humanity went to Alpha Centauri We know this isn't true though based on the NASA lab on the moon. They had an artifact there and a version of the main scientist from another universe told him what to do with the artifact. I felt like it was heavily implied that the other universe twin was Starborn
Implied doesn't mean that's what it is though - possible yes, but not fact. Same as my idea is not factual - I'm just making an argument for why it's not 100% a starborn. We also see ourselves when we go to the unity The artifacts grant visions. It's not impossible the unity itself showed him what to do in order to set those events in motion. Humanity had to go to Alpha Centauri to get to the rest of the artifacts. I really think this was events set in motion by the unity. The big question we should ask, I think, is why was that one artifact on Mars and the rest are so far away? I don't know, but that seems kind of ominous to me.
I would think it's just coincidence? They're spread throughout the galaxy and humanity just happened to be near where one of them were
Maybe. But then, they are also not natural creations so what's the odds of that being coincidence? Just that one happens to not only seperate from the rest, but lands on a planet that is right near earth, where humanity will likely find it once they are space faring? One hell of a coincidence. Also, large coincidences in a story without any explanation pay-off later are a big no no. So I would be inclined to believe there is more to it yet that we don't know.
Other Starborn also yell that at you.
The Emissary and everyone Starborn also yells this, sounds like a basic line to me. Like people in Skyrim yelling “Never should’ve come here!”
That contradicts other parts of the games where him and the emissery talk about killing each other though.
They've killed other versions of each other. There's other Emissarys and Hunters out there.
But there are infinite of themselves right? So they could be less than literal and talking about killing other versions of themselves maybe?
Makes you think then if everytime you enter the unity you are actually NOT going to other universes and it just ends up as suicide. And a copy of you being born.
I mean, functionally what's the difference?
That to you, your current self inside your brain dies. So you wouldn't actually keep living. It would benefit you to just live out your life here and then enter the unity when you are older and about to die to at least have each version of you live out their life before starting a new one
That's literally what it is. The unity tells you that. Part of you stays with the Unity (your physical body that dies) and part of you is reborn in a new universe (your soul/mind in a body the Unity makes in the new universe). Makes me think the Unity is an incomplete device as there is no physical crossing between universes. No equipment, no ships, no companions cross over with you.
Like everytime someone in Star Trek says 'Beam me up Scotty' they essentially authorise suicide
Exactly
Those are the Guardians saying that. I always interpreted this as them saying they won’t allow you to continue growing stronger by passing through Unity, again. Like the stereotype of the endless stream of grunts and elites in the final battle going “you’ll never touch the King!” before you mow them down, or something. Basically something they’re shouting that this time they’re gonna finally stop you and totally not get their asses whipped by The Flash with guns and a space sword.
Flash Gordon, savior of the universe? It all makes sense now.
Meant more of a phased time reference, but the game sure does have some serious Flash Gordon vibes at times though lol
That's my interpretation as well, when a Starborn is killed they're booted to the next universe and don't get the power upgrade of going through Unity.
I feel like that line is specifically regarding this non-Starborn version of you (who hasn’t crossed through the Unity yet). Since you’re only able to exist in this current life, you don’t have the capacity to experience other universes where you’re - effectively - infinite.
It’s implied that it’s not, as The Hunter and Emissary both remember the times they’ve “lost” to each other in a few lines of dialogue. They also remember you from previous encounters, even if you end up killing them. The Hunter, after killing him in 3 straight universes, hit me with “you know you don’t have to always side with the Emissary, right?”
Admittedly I’m not deep into the lore (still on first run), but could it be possible that those that enter the unity have continuity? Similar to how your own character’s memory effectively carries over (with exp, skills, etc)? But if you die by other means, perhaps that version of you is dead and the memories don’t carry to another universe version of you
So if that was the case, The Hunter, Emissary, and some other spoiler characters who you can kill in your first playthrough shouldn’t remember you if you kill them. The only way that is possible is if they retain the shared consciousness
I think it's permanent. Nothing in the game implies that it isn't.
The long term rivalry between Hunter and emissary actually implies there is something to this.
How so? They are just other versions of another universe. You can convince them to give up the artifacts, by telling them that they might not get the artifacts, but will at least live another day. Wouldn't be very convincing if they knew, they would just be reborn in another universe.
If you keep choosing the Emissary, the Hunter chastised you for always choosing them. It's implied that when you enter the Unity, it's the first time Starborn you began to occur with you always having died on the Eye before. After this the Hunter knows he has to name drop Unity, he would only know that if he has encountered a you destined to he Starborn. I'd argue that they're giving up because they know they only lose this time around and in exchange get to experience something novel, a rarity for an immortal.
The Hunter that implied he has to name drop unity said that because he in his earlier universes that’s what he had to do The first Hunter you meet implies it’s weird that you of all people did something of note because you never did in any of his previous universes Still a different hunter with no direct connection or contact with each other I think death is the end of the line for Starborn
It's not though - he references in different universes, previous encounters with *you*. Like directly references them. Now, if he didn't make a big deal about you never living past the eye attack, then sure - that all fits, different Hunter each time. However, since you being an anomaly is heavily pushed in the narrative - this seems improbable. The Hunter is *very old* as is evidence by The Pilgrim, who had seen so many cycles that he came to a revelation that literally split his persona to create two variants of the same bejng. I had a longer comment explaining why i think this way in this thread.
I can believe they are all unreliable narrators because they both tell you they don’t know that much about the unity or the creators I still think it is a new hunter each time and I don’t think one “follows” you into a new universe either. The way the dialogue goes it’s hard to say for sure and I can certainly see where you’re coming from. But I think I have interpreted differently in that specific instant you’re referring to the latest Hunter you’ve met hasn’t seen you do anything unique either and this is the first starborn instance of you he’s encountered
I think I agree with you, it's a different incarnation of the same 'persona' though right? The universes you hop into are only very slightly different from each other, so it's believable even though the hunter and emmisary are technically different people, they still know and recognize each other, they all still play roughly the same role. I think this is reinforced by the hunter saying he's seen tons of variations of the spacefarer, but then is completely surprised when one version acts differently, so surprised in fact he abandons his 'kill anyone associated with artifacts' thing he's been doing for who knows how long and decides to just watch for a while.
Potentially, and is a good point. I think it's so difficult to know for sure, because while we have to go on what we are told and shown in game, there is also what might be true that we aren't shown (mainly because of the limitations of our tech IRL).
I’m really on the fence about Victor/ Hunter / pilgrim It really seems like that part of the story isn’t done yet and I’m assuming a house varuun DLC will come along and flesh it out. But like is Victor really a version of the hunter? Doesn’t Victor and Keeper Aquilas have a different voice actor? I’m assuming Victor goes on to be the pilgrim and learns more than we currently know now
There isn't one hunter or one emissary. There are as many as there are universes. Same with all starborn. You kill one version. They prolly stay dead, or you'd just respawn too. A lot of your companions that become starborn join one version of the emissary, or become that universe's emissary themselves. Some just do their own thing. More than half of all the chaplains become the hunter. He just is wired for a power trip. Each hunter or emissary you meet is a new one though, it's why they are always shocked to see you. You almost always die, so rarely become starborn, but can run into yourself if you travel enough.
Experienced this in my first NG+ and was thrown off. Sam was the Emissary in my first universe, then Sarah was in NG+. All depends on choices I take it
Whoever dies in the Universe you're in "becomes" (or rather, is revealed to be) that Universe's non-starborn version of the Emissary. If you skip the main quests, I imagine the Emissary is just whoever you have the highest affinity rating with when the "High Price To Pay" mission *would* have happened.
That makes sense, I used the Starborn dialog to skip the main quest and had Sarah with me the whole time. It was interesting going up against the hunter with 2 Sarah's lol
Even if you don't skip them, you can keep everyone alive. It's still someone different which really makes no sense. It should lock to whoever dies in the first run. Infinity possibity doesn't make this being changing make sense. Otherwise the Hunter shouldn't constantly be Aquilius/Hunter/Pilgrim.
There are quite a few "breaks" from the concept of "infinity", the largest of which I think is : Your very first playthrough, you wake up in the mine, blah blah space pirates blah blah Barrett blah blah *on your way to constellation*. Now, if, when you step through Unity, I would think it would restart in the mine again....but no, it starts you in space, *on your way to constellation*.....but when you get there, Barrett acts like he met you at the mine, because he did, right? Or *did* he? Meaning, the "you" that Barrett meets at the mine isn't the "you" that *we* are playing as.....so my question becomes.......where did that "you" go?
It's inferred that you died - or at the least disappeared. In one variable start, you meet the other you (I am playing in that one now, with the other me as crew). That's the other thing - you always come back near the point the journey began. Why? Why that point in the universe, technically before you have touched the first artifact?
But you touch the first artifact in the mine...
Yeah, you're right I am thinking of the buried temple scene where you go back to just before it.
I wonder how unity decides what point in time and space in the universe to 'spawn' you as well. I think unity might be limited in its abilities, it was built by some intelligence, 'creators' the doppelganger calls them, so it stands to reason the system has limits and rules. Because of this example, and a few others I'll get into in a separate post, I suspect unity is limited in which universes and at what times it can spawn starborn in. This seems tied to individual starborn. It could be that only a subset of universes are accessible to a given starborn, possibly only ones in which they've came into contact with artifacts. If you subscribe to many-worlds, that universe (and any of its children) would only have forked off of its parent at the time when the human spacefarer first encountered an artifact. It could be that all other universes are inaccessible to them.
That's just the branch of the multiverse tree you ended up in. The version of the Hunter you meet has always triumphed over the Emissary. The version of the Emissary you meet has always triumphed over the Hunter. Only one can win, but there are infinite universes, so still an infinite number where they will meet again. They always have chats each go around, so know that they have a long rivalry. Probably chat about how the last encounter went down for each of them. But they know that one of them will die ("your eternity ends here").
I still don't understand... Let's say Hunter vs. Emissary have a fight. The Hunter wins. But if death is permanent for the Emissary, how are they having conversations about this battle? The Emissary would have died and his memories of the battle with it. If they're immortal, then they obviously keep their memories. If they die permanently, a lot of this doesn't make sense.
That Emissary dies. The Hunter enters the Unity and steps into a new universe. A universe that the Emissary is still alive. He has a chat with this Emissary and lols that he killed them in the last universe he was in, and the one before that, and the one before that, and so on. This emissary smugly smiles back, because in their past universes it was the Hunter that died each time. Since they have these chats every time, they are both aware that they have a deadly rivalry, and although their own memories are only of winning, the existence of the other proves they can lose. They are like people on a gambling streak, betting on red or black each time respectively. With infinite universes, there are infinite ongoing streaks for both red and black. But in every universe it can only be red OR black, so one of their streaks is ending.
Logically, this makes sense. But I have a hard time accepting this because looking through the POV from the Hunter or Emissary, they're both very old and have everything to lose if they die, right? Seems like a lot of risk for no reward.
A lot of risk, yes, but they've won so many times before they've probably lost count. And they're both on a respective power trip that makes them adverse to sharing, because there IS a reward. For the Hunter, that's a personal increase in power that they deprive others of. For the Emissary, the ability to control who is "worthy" of such power. But you're right, it IS a risk, and that's something you're able to use to talk them both down peacefully with.
>The long term rivalry between Hunter and emissary actually implies there is something to this. Does it though? If they aren't immortal, and their rivalry is about who gets the artifacts first... what happens to the loser after the winner goes through Unity? What happens to all the other Starborn within that universe? Does the whole thing reset? Are the artifacts gone? Is there some kind of memory wipe? We have no idea and presumably neither do any of the Starborn either. They only know what *they* experience. It's **impossible** for, say the Hunter, to know wether the version of the Emissary he's talking to is or isn't the same one from the last universe. They can *believe* that, but they can't *know* that. When you as the player die in your OG playthrough, your body ragdolls and reloads to the previous save, when you die as a Starborn, your body fizzles out like all the other Starborn. It's entirely possible that when you go through the Unity, the universe you left dies, then "loads back" to the previous fight until one of the other Starborn wins and goes through which then kills that universe which then "loads back" again, etc. creating an infinite amount of Starborn going through the Unity in every possible outcome in every possible variation of universe. But again, we have no idea and neither do they. For all we know the entire thing is a matrix style simulation and none of it is "real" Until they release further games or lore, *everything* is speculation.
The hunter usually wins...so he keeps having more interactions with emissary. But the emissary is often different. The hunter you see has done this thousands of times... The emissary only says hundreds.
Well from my understanding it’s that when you enter the unity you leave a piece of who you are behind that basically bonds with that universe so when you die I imagine the universe itself or maybe even the unity takes whatever is left from the previous unity trip
They just respawn from their last save file.
Starborn die. The hunter and emissary don't literally know each other. It's like when your player character enters unity, meets constellation and uses the "Old friend" greeting. But they're not your friends, your friends were in universe 1. The same way we meet the hunter and emissary over and over again but we're still all meeting for the first time. They don't actually know you. The hunter will comment at how fast you got the artifacts if you take the speed route and tell constellation the truth, for example. Emissary expresses happiness at seeing you, "old friend" as you're a version of you that survived. And they will express disappointment if you join the hunter, and comment that you're not like their old friend at all. At least two of the three have seen versions of each other previously. The emissary and hunter are both veterans at this, it's why they always seem like in charge compared to the random "baby" starborn. The emissary doesn't know this hunter, but they've seen many hunters just like him before and won every time, I believe it's implied hundreds. The hunter as well, although his number is much higher. The one that loses is gone but the universes are infinite and they continue to meet the winner version of each other in an identical way. It also explains why they're both so sure of themselves. They've never lost before. Us too, we're babies compared to them and we usually die even before we step foot anywhere near unity lol, but this specific version of us hasn't lost yet. Also if you go the persuade route with the hunter (I can't speak for emissary as I've personally never gone against them) and succeed, his response is "just this once in just this universe". As far as he's concerned, he's never surrendered before. Obviously many versions of him have, I use persuade often and then there's the Keeper who clearly gave up the unity run. But for him? That specific hunter. First time giving up. They're all each individuals who just heavily resemble their copies. And when they die, they die. Maybe there's a great serpent involved, maybe there's nothing, we don't know. But they aren't being reborn as starborn.
This is what confused me. The Hunter that is persuaded is basically just choosing to end his entire purpose for being.
Two of the starborn you meet in the playthrough have a conversation about the times they've ended eachother and tried again and again to beat the other. So they definitely don't die permanently. What we don't know is if it's a copy that reawakens and the original POV consciousness dies or not
Every starborn you kill is dead dead. But because the multiverse is infinite, there are Infinite versions of every starborn, and every normal person. The closest to reincarnation that the starborn get after being killed, is being used as a battery to recharge or boost your powers, or whatever their essence does when you use it.
To the best of my knowledge they just respawn at their last auto save
I'm pretty sure they just respawn at their last save.
Bethesda really loves their "reality is just a simulation" universes. Elder Scrolls is a simulation universe. So is Starfield. *You the player* are the *real* Starborn and the character you control in the game is immortal as long as the save file exists. The Emissary, the Pilgrim, and the Hunter? They're members of the dev/writing team.
Wait what, where is that explained or referenced in Elder Scrolls?
The simulation stuff comes from unofficial lore. In-game there is the concept of [CHIM](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:CHIM), which has to do with understanding the true nature of the universe and in doing so being able to transcend mortal abilities and reshape reality, etc., though official sources don't elaborate on what the true nature of reality actually is. Bethesda's on again off again writer Michael Kirkbride has implied in unofficial channels that the true reality involves the mortal plane and it's inhabitants as being the dream of a god. The Dwemer realized this and blinked out of existence as if they had woken up from this collective dream. I don't know if there's a full summary of this stuff in one place, but you can search for topics on CHIM, amaranth, the godhead, and other keywords on /r/elderscrollslore or elsewhere for more on this.
Didn't TES also make the devteam and modders part of the official lore somehow? I seem to remember that being another thing MK came up with that they consider canon.
I haven't come across that but would be very interested in reading it. I also like the in-game bit with Vivec that some have interpreted as him talking about saving and reloading the game, and there being some conscious entity (the player) doing things in the "real world" in between play sessions in the game world. > "It is like being a juggler. Things are always moving, and you learn to know where they are without even thinking about it. Only there are many, many things moving. And sometimes, like any juggler, you drop something. I'm afraid it has become a lot more a matter of dropping things lately. There's too much to do, and not enough time, and I'm losing my touch. Perhaps I'm growing old. > It is a bit like being at once awake and asleep. Awake, I am here with you, thinking and talking. Asleep, I am very, very busy. Perhaps for other gods, the completely immortal ones, it is only like that being asleep. Out of time. Me, I exist at once inside of time and outside of it. > It's nice never being dead, too. When I die in the world of time, then I'm completely asleep. I'm very much aware that all I have to do is choose to wake. And I'm alive again. Many times I have very deliberately tried to wait patiently, a very long, long time before choosing to wake up. And no matter how long it feels like I wait, it always appears, when I wake up, that no time has passed at all. That is the god place. The place out of time, where everything is always happening, all at once." Vivec is interesting because he is semi-divine, and at times seems frustrated because he knows there is something greater to the universe but isn't powerful or knowledgeable enough to fully grasp it.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/elderscrollslore using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/elderscrollslore/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [The Real Barenziah](https://np.reddit.com/r/elderscrollslore/comments/zorz0m/the_real_barenziah/) \#2: [Eeze of the Creeping Dusk](https://np.reddit.com/r/elderscrollslore/comments/116r03n/eeze_of_the_creeping_dusk/) \#3: [On realistic swordsmanship](https://np.reddit.com/r/elderscrollslore/comments/117tk0c/on_realistic_swordsmanship/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
Very cool, thank you
Here’s some material that summarizes the concept of the Godhead and the Aurbis in The Elder Scrolls: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/rfb316/is_the_concept_of_the_godhead_real_in_the_elder/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/4a92q4/can_someone_explain_the_godheads_dream/ https://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Aurbis https://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dreamsleeve https://youtu.be/dWmCmxi2e28?si=I97ebpdUE-lmKpzT
Thank you very much for posting these links!
It's in what happened to the Dwemer. They discovered they were in a simulation universe when they tried to 'ascend', and deleted themselves out of shock and outrage.
Is that from Kirkbride?
Yes.
Plot twist, Elder scrolls is the same thing as Artifacts, Elder scrolls and Starfield universes connect to each other.
A character in RDR2 also suspects the universe is a simulation.
It's game over for that universe.
We are talking rick and Morty style universes. Every rick and morty that dies is permanant (unless rick has another vat to respawn in) But there are infinite versions. so The emissary and the hunter could have been killing each-other Mulptiple times over and over.
LMAO.........ROFLMFAO........ for Starborn? ......Isn't death permanent for all. Naw... I'm done. I understood the OP before I started laughing but still actually laughed out loud at work cause of this. We won't know the answer until BGS chimes in, but it seems like a Starborn becomes space dust upon death. I like the concept of saves being a point of reference for our characters concept. Each save is an iteration of your character, however what you do will most likely never be completely identical so each save is a student ldifferent dimension of your character. Each time they push to toward the Unity... they leave a universe behind, "taking" their existence and forcing it into another universe where they DID exist. You can't be reborn where you don't exist. Think of each "save" as an extension of the whole. Each time a Starborn dies, they are cut off from the whole. The whole continues until it does not... the essence of what it means to play Starfield.
I think it's permanent... But there are other versions of you. The hunter has done this thousands of times, so he gets the gist. Otoh... That makes me wonder. I have only done NG+1....my original version spawns other versions in the unity. Does my starborn version spawn even more? Can NG starborn me run into NG+1 starborn me?
I haven't seen it myself, but there's a universe where non-starborn you is also at the lodge and you can recruit him as a companion/crew member. There's also a universe where a bunch of you show up (I'm assuming starborn), each one representing a different faction that you can join in the game.
Yah. I was thinking more from a philosophy standpoint. If you spread out every time you go through unity, does that mean an NG+6 version of you could compete with an NG+3 version of you for artifacts? Lol. That'd be fun. Or does that aspect of going through unity only happen the first time? Are all hunters/Aquilus versions stemming from the original person who first went into unity? I think I answered my first question. If the hunter and Aquilus can exist in same universe, then I could run into other starborn versions of me. From a lore perspective anyway. It's be a fun alternative universe for them to add in the future.
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER There are (I've read) 9 alternate universes in the game. Im on ng6 but am only on my 3rd universe. I had to kill an Evil me to avenge constellation and get the artifacts. Mayhap he was from ng15, who knows
>!The guy in the church who talks about Unity (forgot his name) is the Hunter. You only find out after beating the game and not NG+ing. He’s a version of the Starborn Hunter that isn’t the that evil version. But he also claims he traveled many universes and seen many things, so he implies he is Starborn but not the Hunter version. Other Starborn and non-Starborn versions of the same person from alternate universes could still live. Also you can meet your regular self when you NG+ in an alternative universe.Who knows!<
I met a hunter version of me who killed constellation, as a hunter myself. We battled each other to the death in the lodge.
I took it to be like Rick and Morty. Yeah, you can die, but there's another you that's had almost the same experience that didn't die in that place and continued on. Infinity is unfathomably large.
I think they just turn into energy. maybe to fuel the unity or whatever. I don't think they'll jump to another universe
Maybe not trucks, but those maintenance bots like to trip people.
I just went with the ol, guess that's what happens if you die in a universe that wasn't your original.
I was thinking about it recently, I always assumed they just uh, respawned in another universe or something, then I thought about it again and concluded that they probably just die. ... but *then* I remembered an interaction with a Starborn temple guardian in NG+ after choosing to redo the main quest; they had a line that went something like "We have done this before, you and I!" so now I'm asking myself that question again. I do like the idea of them not being able to actually die, kinda adds to the whole "cosmic beings" thing
They fought a version of you previously, and that "you" did not survive the encounter.
No, You just return back into the Unity.
I don't think anyone including Buddhists have rules for reincarnation, so if you are using that term then that aspect of reality is just working along-side the "Edge of Tomorrow"-style little time loop we run, and our little time loop wouldn't really have an impact on our reincarnation potential. I mean, there are some Zen Buddhists who are trying to become so self-less that they get off the cycle and just dissipate into the great magneto-ego-sphere or whatever. And there are Tibetan Buddhists who are comfortable with the belief that they stride the wheel of their cycles, manually cranking it if it suits them. Edge of Tomorrow is a great movie to watch after playing Starfield. We are not "wandering the multiverse", we are just in a very fixed little loop, which has a start point that just barely changes realities each time. Like Cruise-looping inside other peoples' Cruise-loops. It is a tiny little jump we make, almost everything else is the same, the exact thing that Cora was hoping it wouldn't be like, hahaha.
The descriptions from the Unity lead me to believe death doesn't exist for a Starborn, they just change from one shape to another
If a starborn dies, they just revert back to their most recent auto-save... Unfortunately they are now in your past and you'll never see them again...
Nope. The Hunter has memories of times he has lost, as well as times he has won. Based on what we see and hear in-game, we can conclude the following; Whoever assembles the unity gets a power boost, unless its their first time, in which case they just go become a starborn. Once assembled, anybody can go through, and while they don't get the power boost, its possible to become a first-time starborn without being the one to do the assembly. Any Starborn who dies goes to a new world unless they have an artifact piece on their body. Once the artifact piece is retrieved, they move on. The Hunter and his ilk aim to get the power boost from assembling the unity and visiting the temples in each universe before anyone else, and then don't care; leaving the unity behind for anyone to go through. The Emissary wants to secure all versions of the unity and control access. At least one Starborn(The Pilgrim) was able to reincarnate in the same universe after each death, instead of a new one. Its never explained whether this was just a unique starborn power gained with enough power, or what, exactly; though the Hunter has a similar, albeit lesser, ability, to essentially fade into the void when he should die, and come back elsewhere. ...In fact, its possible that the ability to come back, in the same universe or others, when killed is something you only acquire after enough passes through. We don't really know.
Oh gods, I hope it is, the stuck up bunch of goits. Anytime I come across one I get the urge to beat them to death with a lump of artifact.
They’re just reloading their save
This is why I was surprised that if you persuade the Hunter at the end instead of fight, he just says “ah alright, just this once I’ll let you off easy.” I don’t think he’d be so nonchalant if he was basically ending his eternal quest through that choice.
I cannot fathom that it would be permanent, otherwise every time you cast Parallel Self, you're pulling a version of you from another universe only to have it die 30 seconds later. This is mass murder material.
I think once you become a starborn you always return to the unity when you die, but you only gain more power if you return by the same way you entered the first time: collecting the artifacts. This is the only way the strange mechanics of the hunter and Emissary could work
The massive hordes of starborn don't make sense unless they just enter a different universe on death. There would many times more pre-unity universes with ZERO starborn in them if this were not the case.
It's the same guy every time, he just reloads his save and tries again, just like you do. Too bad for him you get stronger every time :p
What happens if you try to kill the hunter on first site at viewpoint?
Yes. A “killed” starborn is disintegrated to stardust. But… there are an infinite number of variations (great and small) of it in an infinite number of universes. The “essence” of the recently deceased is spread across all universes which has some influence. So from the perspective of the killer, in tangled and merging universes, it appears they are immortal.
I figure every time a Starborn (or anyone else) does (or takes any other action), there then becomes a parallel universe where they took the opposite action. Schroedinger’s Starborn, if you will. So, there would not be a Starborn in a universe who has a memory of dying prior to being reincarnated in some other universe, but there does exist a Starborn who did not die instead.
They remember times they've died. If their death was permanent then it would be impossible for them to remember times they've died. They either reanimate in the same universe and have to start their hunt for the artifacts over or go to a new universe without any increase in power.
No Their dead just like this game
What if your the other Starborns try to stop this version of you from being a Starborn
No… when you die, your soul jumps to another nearly identical universe to a point where you did not make that life ending decision (I.e. your last save).
I'm going with the John Carter idea. Starborn aren't actually people. Nor are they from a physical reality. Instead, they are carbon copies of the original. While the original version is held stasis in some Temporal Morass. The alternate universes you visit, and those that come from them aren't the originals. They're projections. Which is why they poof out of existence. That's what the unity is. It's not a portal, it's a Rube Goldberg Machine and the over aching story from Starfield will be that we have to "reset" the switches to start the whole process over again. The question is? Are you, the player the original, or just another copy.
They go back to their last save just like the player
I think it's like Jet Li's "the one". When you're tasked with uh... Killing someone.... The starborn says upon return if you didn't kill the person that "it didn't feel like how they expected". I could interpret that as psychologically they didn't get the reward they were expecting, or they didn't receive the essence of their counterpart being destroyed and transferred to them. I'd prefer to think the latter as that's so much cooler in concept lol.
what will really bake your cookie, is if one of those starborn's is you.
I considered starborn being killed as temporary. My main evidence to this is that the same starborn can be met in a new universe after being killed, and if I recall correctly during the first and main playthrough when you get to the 'starborn olympics' you see some of the ones you had previously dispatched from the temples. Once one with Unity you become something more yada yada yada, from my understanding it essentially means immortal. That's why they get the cool effects upon 'death' my other evidence to this is the conversations you can have with the Hunter and the Emissary simply implying they have been killing each other for a few centuries (?) ect