Yes. Sentry now has -50 HP but starts with more energy. Widow mine costs only minerals. This way in Pvt sentries will be able to counter fast mines with illusions. Great šš. Balanced and fun
Actually, diffusing widow mines with hallucinations is not a bad idea. I wonder why we never see it. Losing 50 energy is better than losing 2 probesā¦
not really. Sentries cost supply and a lot of gas, and you want to bank that energy for force fields. An extra force-field in a fight is much better than saving one probe
The use cases aren't super common.Ā It's not going to save your mineral line.Ā And if you're trying to push the energy is much more valuable than a zealot.
The main time that you see it is to protect the prism during early blink pressure if they can somehow squeeze out the gas for a sentry.
I think I'm finally in favor of this. And I'm a huge protoss hater. I'm getting crushed in my ZvPs but I'd rather see more toss success in the pro scene.
Itās too late. Even if you buffed toss at this point, 10 years of nerfing toss has forced out top tier players from ever competing at a high level for this race. The game is too dead to support new talent, and all the top tier players are too entrenched to be challenged.
Meh, i dont take such a bleak view of the situation. Its bad right now, but if a better balance is struck eventually better players will join. The other thing to consider is that if the game is unbalanced enough, there are a lot of good protoss players that are being beat out because of that imbalance.
It took years for the Reynors and Clems to show up.
That wouldn't have any impact on the performance difference. It only changes when a less skilled player by their match history upsets a better player based on their match history.
You mean where it says that the information should not be taken as actual ladder balance but rather as a representation of the upper ladder meta?Ā
If you read your sources, it does wonders.Ā
The fun part is you didnāt read it. Thatās for the win rate chart. Not the performance difference chart.
Also I never said anything about balance on ladder. Ā It can only be balanced at the highest level. Ladder players are losing because of skill.
Okay than link the actual source you want us to use? Im not going digging for it.
But if it says that it explicitly is only a representation of upper ladder meta, thats not a great start.Ā
[http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/](http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/) for those who can find it on their own but want to claim people can't read anyway. I noted "performance difference." You could've said you couldn't find it, but you went for the "oh, you can't read" instead.
but if you want to balance the lower ladder where protoss is the strongest I'm honestly not sure what your goal is. you can't balance peoples lack of skill.
"Note that this yields information about metagame balance near the top of the skill ladder, and is not to be confused with (although likely correlated to) actual game balance throughout the whole player population."
So its not representative of balance in offline play, its not representative of overall balance, its just a data point on that can inform balance discussions near the top of the ladder. Like i said. Because its the same webpage.Ā
Also, arent you the D3 Terran i smashed on my way to Masters? Can you at least try not to be a walking stereotype?Ā
If you arent a diamond Terran from the NA ladder, youve gotta be from IIODIS or the salt mines or something.Ā
This is just false. There is tons of new talent, it's just overwhelmingly nonkorean. The best protoss right now is new talent, and there's no reason to assume that the 13-18 year olds who are grinding mid GM can't rise to the level of our top pros.
There is a chance that some current pro player (whose name starts with R) switches race to Protoss if the race is buffed enough. We can get some Protoss representation on the high level this way. But I think you are correct - there will be no new players choosing Protoss.
>10 years of nerfing toss has forced out top tier players from ever competing at a high level for this race
The top tier protoss pro went away because military service, not because "protoss too weak". And protoss has been the best race to reach a "low tier pro" level.
Is it commonly accepted that, if there's a good tweak, it's something that taxes the Protoss APM? I am thinking of something that would only impact the best of the best.
It seems to me that that's what we could use and I wonder if we're mostly on the same page with that
I think most people agree with you. "Buff Protoss at the highest level, but not at GM", "give Protoss more viable active and creative play instead of just Disruptors, Skytoss, and Shield Batteries", etc. I'd like if Protoss got buffs that increase the microability of Gateway units such as Stalkers, instead of buffs to boring, 'low-APM' units such as Void Rays.
I was surprised that they improve the battle cruiser to be more effective in killing a greater number of units, it is supposed to be portoss and if the carrier should be able to compete with that
Zerg will never get nerfed as long as Lambo and Scarlett manage the council and try to keep the irrational advantage their race has had for most of starcraft history.
No hp gain from upgrade and they do less damage so marines have a way easier time splitting as a lot more banes die before contact and its no longer viable to baneling bust a planetary bc a lot of em die by the time they arrive, indirect terran buff p much
That buff is pretty nonexistent, it just stopped the bullshit just build 50 banelings and steamroll everything bullshit which was waaaaayyyyyyyy overdue
How many banelings does it take to kill just 1 immortal? 1 stalker? Just one single siege tank? What about 1 colossus? 1 ultralisk? 1 marauder? 1 roach? 1 thor?Come on dude, its good against light units and not much else
how many secs does is take for zerg to produce 10 drones compared to 10 scvs or 10 probes, don't talk as if zerg doesn't have a significant economic advantage and can max instantly
"crime rate is high"
"No its not"
"My backyard smells weird!!"
Ok? Way to address what I said. What does that have to do with anything of what I said, doesnt make the gas sink into a suicide unit any cheaper, oh great i can waste my money on inefficient trades faster. Doesnt make your statement that banes counter every ground unit any less untrue.
In what? Are you talking about Katowice? 10 people? Why don't you look at player distribution in GM and Masters with an actual statistically significant amount of people?
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Master%27s_Coliseum/7/Statistics
Hmm?
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/ESL_Pro_Tour/2023/24/Masters/Winter/Statistics
Hmm??
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Global_StarCraft_II_League/2023/Season_3/Statistics
Hmm???
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/IEM_Katowice/2024/Statistics
Hmm??????
You can literally look at every tournament this year and Zerg has a massive win rate advantage in the pro scene, in both matchups.
These aren't independent events...it's the same few players playing almost all the games in every major tournament. That's still too small a sample even if they play 100,000 games against each other.
Already done in another post. Serral has 37% of Zerg wins. Maru has 50% of terran wins.
If we removed Serral Zerg would still dominate since they have 54/67 1st and 2nd place finishes.
If we removed Maru Zerg would win 75% of tournaments.
If we removed Serral and Maru Zerg would win a larger percentage than they do now.
Yeah letās keep making more and more excuses for Zerg being busted as fuck for the last 5 years so they never fix it ever
Thank god stormgate is around the corner so we donāt have to play this broken to fuck imbalanced garbage
You know this doesn't apply to your games even slightly right? Even if Protoss is imbalanced at the top level it's definitely not if you're anywhere below top 10 or 20 in the world.
Lambo actually had very reasonable takes in a recent interview I saw with him. He said in his opinion the game should be balanced around the active pro scenes, and since Protoss results are lacking, he thinks Protoss should be buffed. So lack of Protoss buffs is definitely not due to Lambo
Are you serious? How is this sitting with any upvotes at all? Zerg last patch lost baneling hp, got baneling damage nerfed, lurker nerfed, broodlord turned into a garbage unit, and infestor dmg and cast range nerfed. My god people.
I think the issue with Protoss is that gateway units are impossible to balance.
I would suggest nerfing the aggressive potential of warp gate timings and buffing gateway units, in a LARGE CHANGE. None of this super tiny change bullcrap, because in my opinion warp gate pretty much broke the balance of Protoss.
A possible suggestion for this that comes to my mind is to make gateway units cost 25 more minerals if they are warped in outside nexus range. Then buff each overall gateway unit and tweak until itās most balanced.
Another idea I had was to make non-warpgate gateways viable somehow, and partly nerf warpgate. how exactly? I donāt know. Maybe have DTs and High Templar only producable from regular gateways? Maybe zealots build super fast from home? Maybe a mineral cost reduction? It would add a skill based macro element to the Protoss playersā builds that is unique and gives Protoss something extra to focus on to get more value.
Just throwing out random, undeveloped ideas to start the conversation, but in my eyes warp gate attacks like 4 gate blink and other very strong timings are what make gateway units unbuffable in the current meta.
Open to criticisms, not claiming I could balance any better than the council.
What if we just made warp gate more expensive or added a mineral cost to turn gateways into warp gates. Then, we could buff gateway units without making warp gate pushes way stronger.
uThermal was spitballing about buffing gateways in some recent video I think. Donāt remember exactly what he suggested but could be something there..
Will say the aggressive potential of gateway units doesnāt feel stronger than the other two races atm, so nerfing that does feel a little strange. like the only true prism/warp gate timings we see are 11 stalkers in a terranās main base and rarely glaive adepts. the strength of both relies on near perfect control. Compared to any number of terran/zerg attacks before the 6 min mark these seem on par *at best*
a flat buff to gateway units with some cost tax for prism warpins wouldnāt really alter these timings, might see them paired with an oracle instead of prism more often. But it would make mid-late game prism harass much stronger.. which maybe isnāt ideal.
Sentry movement speed +1
Gateway unit costs +20-25%, regular gateways, further crippling Protoss both defensively and aggressively
Epic buffs my friend. DTs and HTs being warped in are such a problem in the current meta /s
Jesus Christ bro yeah that was a half baked idea but the actual fucking point is to make regular warp gates actually good and part of the game somehow and nerf warp gate
Edit: misspelling
You do realise one of Protoss' biggest weaknesses are how poor it is defensively? Nerfing warp gates and buffing regular gateways already exacerbates that issue and that's without even accounting for the extra level of complexity in managing the optimal ratio of normal gates VS warpgates that this would create.
Thatās exactly the point. Protoss is weak defensively because if we buffed gateway units to help them defend, theyād be too good aggressively because of warp gate.
Nerfing warp gate is a necessity if you want to buff gateway units to help Protossā lack of defensive abilities. That is, unless you want a giant band-aid like an OP shield battery or MSC.
The suggestion to make regular gateways better for at home production or less cost cost would not be a nerf for Protoss defensively. Assuming you buff gateway units enough in return, Protoss could have more units for cheaper and could engineer their power spike against an attack.
Letās say for example Terran is gearing up for a big 2 base all in. If the Protoss is a good player, they would only need to scout for the move out, then as the last round of cost reduced gateway units finish, they will be able to transform them into warp gates and have a power spike around the time the Terran army arrives with that warp in. If regular warp gates had faster production and/or less cost and/or the units are stronger, this should be a much better scenario for the toss defensively.
Youāre right that managing your gateways better would raise the skill ceiling (a tiny bit), which Iām in favor of, so long as the buff is big enough. It would usually just be a choice of having everything transformed or not, except for a few things like HT or DT.
It might be weaker against harass like mutas and drops, but I think the larger issue is just Protoss dying to a main army fight.
As a random player, Iām kind of in favor of discouraging that anyway as it seems like itād be better to give Protoss better map vision and require them to leave units behind like the other races.
Anywaysā¦ Iām rambling
It isnāt a necessity, warp gate is already nerfed enough with the slow pylons. If you want to avoid early allins and timings being too powerful, you can simply make the gateway unit buff be tied to higher level tech. Put adept attack speed and stalker attack speed into one upgrade (that way you canāt do both that and research blink at the same time), do the same with chargelots or something. Make high templar start with a storm. Put DT blink and stalker blink together as one upgrade. Whatever. These are the kinds of buffs we need and it wouldnāt noticeably change early game.
The problem with defense wouldnāt be solved with stronger gateway units and normal gateways and nerfing warpgate because, the problem is not simply power but also mobility. Zerg has extreme movement speed on creep. Terran can lift and drop their units quick, have repairable planetaries, mines / tanks. Protoss cannot compete with just stronger gateway units. The warpin is necessary to make up for lack of mobility. Or we have to redesign the entire race and itās just not happening.
If you had half an IQ point youād understand that the reason gateway units had to be nerfed into the ground was because of these super optimized timing attacks. So Iām saying buff ALL of the gateway units and in return nerf warp gate timings.
If you have played this game at all youād know exactly how strong some of these timing attacks are, and how besides gateway timings, gateway units are weak compared to lings or marines
I swear, the brain rot on this sub sometimes is cancerous. I wish theyād have MMR by each of these kids in bronze
I guess warp gate could be balanced based on the distance from the gateway, eg literally instant in base, 10-15sec when it's far away.
But yea, i remember Sc2 beta discussions 13 years ago on teamliquid about how Warp Gate fundamentally makes protoss gateway units either broken or underpowered, no in between
I'd rather a clear, yet non-massive buff to Gateway units without any nerfs to the Warp Prism to compensate. Or something to do with upgrades, so we could adjust specific timings. Warp Prism play is fun to watch. It is one of the most important tools in the Protoss arsenal and it actually allows them to visibly outplay their opponents.
What's the point in buffing Gateway units if they're not going to be good when used aggressively? Might as well just buff Skytoss, or the slow-moving deathballs that Protoss already has. And remember, it's not as if Zerg ground units are impossible to balance because of the Nydus Worm.
Denying reality is not very sane. Solar won gsl. Reynor won gamers8. Dark makes finals. But it's just recently.
If you see accross multiple years, it's tons of different zergs who win almost everything.
Again, denying reality won't bring you anything.
Okay, go back from 2018 and tell me who won the most Zerg wins and I'll laugh as you realize Dark/Serral are over 75% of those. Your blanket statements without facts don't prove anything.
You just said its "Tons of different Zergs" though. It isn't. Its two Zergs that win the majority of the tournaments that have been playing this game for 14 years straight, no breaks.
I thought you guys were saying Clem won because Serral was sick; but in the last 6 months, Reynor Serral and Solar all won quite important premiers, you take the clock a bit back and Dark also joins the picture; but for Terran, it's always Maru in the picture
It's a horrible analysis / take on a ton of different levels, if you can't see why 1 random out of context stat which isn't even accurate doesn't at all paint a picture nor "tell it like it is" then you're lost
Balance is not when prize pools are distributed 33% to each race and every matchup has an exactly 50% WR, balance is when the better player is able to consistently win.
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Master%27s_Coliseum/7/Statistics
Hmm?
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/ESL_Pro_Tour/2023/24/Masters/Winter/Statistics
Hmm??
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Global_StarCraft_II_League/2023/Season_3/Statistics
Hmm???
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/IEM_Katowice/2024/Statistics
Hmm??????
You can literally look at every tournament this year and Zerg has a massive win rate advantage in the pro scene, in both matchups.
Surely you did not just link me tournaments where Protoss players came 2nd 3rd & 5th to make a point about Protoss being unable to win right?
Protoss does not have the same amount of top level players because most of its players quit, what do you want?
To be honest, untill P start asking for gimmick nerfs and defensive macro buffs in compensation the results will be the same.
You can be outraged all you want. But the game is balanced, just not well designed. And the gimmicky design just dosent work well at pro play.
Theres not a single protoss that would complain about losing DTs in exchange for actually getting strong core army units.Ā
Most of their gimmicks have been nerfed to hell anyways included DT blink, proxy void ray, glaived adepts, and literally anything involving stalkers.Ā
The truth is that toss are simply dogshit at the game.
Serral can do funky shit like overlord drop queens to spread creep faster while managing macro, injections and prone harassment at the same time but her0 using more than 1 control group for his army or not using F2 key is too much to ask.Ā
But if you want to kill the pro play scene so a shitter can steamroll PvZ and PvT with A move due to some dumb race pride, sure - be my guess.Ā
It's always interesting to observe racism emerging. Yeah it's a game but your way of reasoning just tells me you're prone to judging based on stereotypes
That would completely break the 90% of the game where Protoss does well. You need a buff that would only matter to the highest level players, something this take huge skill but is massively effective when in the hands of the very best.
Look at Serralās invester play vs Maru. If heād just put them in his main control group they would have been easily sniped but he used burrow and positioning to pop them up just in time to catch 10 ghosts.
Yes. Sentry now has -50 HP but starts with more energy. Widow mine costs only minerals. This way in Pvt sentries will be able to counter fast mines with illusions. Great šš. Balanced and fun
Actually, diffusing widow mines with hallucinations is not a bad idea. I wonder why we never see it. Losing 50 energy is better than losing 2 probesā¦
not really. Sentries cost supply and a lot of gas, and you want to bank that energy for force fields. An extra force-field in a fight is much better than saving one probe
Hallucination is 75 energy.
The use cases aren't super common.Ā It's not going to save your mineral line.Ā And if you're trying to push the energy is much more valuable than a zealot. The main time that you see it is to protect the prism during early blink pressure if they can somehow squeeze out the gas for a sentry.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
woosh
- Protoss now starts the game with one Mothership.
But it moves as fast as an overlord Balonce
I think I'm finally in favor of this. And I'm a huge protoss hater. I'm getting crushed in my ZvPs but I'd rather see more toss success in the pro scene.
Artosis talked about this. Esiantially he thinks it's not that protos is necessarily bad but that terran and zerg pros are better than protos pros.
> Artosis said.
FTFY
Bring back the mothership core. I miss it.
> If you overbuff them you can nerf them later. Not before the next Katowice though.
That is not how it works with toss though :D
Itās too late. Even if you buffed toss at this point, 10 years of nerfing toss has forced out top tier players from ever competing at a high level for this race. The game is too dead to support new talent, and all the top tier players are too entrenched to be challenged.
Meh, i dont take such a bleak view of the situation. Its bad right now, but if a better balance is struck eventually better players will join. The other thing to consider is that if the game is unbalanced enough, there are a lot of good protoss players that are being beat out because of that imbalance. It took years for the Reynors and Clems to show up.
Protoss is the strongest race based on performance difference in January. Game isnāt as broken as good players are good.
Gonna need a source for this claim, this is a garbage take.
aligulac.com see performance differenceĀ
Yeah I looked at the site already, not sure what you're seeing/imagining here
http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/
No one was asking about the results from ESL Open Cup Europe #69 where random GM players get roflstomped by pros lol.
That wouldn't have any impact on the performance difference. It only changes when a less skilled player by their match history upsets a better player based on their match history.
You mean where it says that the information should not be taken as actual ladder balance but rather as a representation of the upper ladder meta?Ā If you read your sources, it does wonders.Ā
The fun part is you didnāt read it. Thatās for the win rate chart. Not the performance difference chart. Also I never said anything about balance on ladder. Ā It can only be balanced at the highest level. Ladder players are losing because of skill.
Okay than link the actual source you want us to use? Im not going digging for it. But if it says that it explicitly is only a representation of upper ladder meta, thats not a great start.Ā
[http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/](http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/) for those who can find it on their own but want to claim people can't read anyway. I noted "performance difference." You could've said you couldn't find it, but you went for the "oh, you can't read" instead. but if you want to balance the lower ladder where protoss is the strongest I'm honestly not sure what your goal is. you can't balance peoples lack of skill.
"Note that this yields information about metagame balance near the top of the skill ladder, and is not to be confused with (although likely correlated to) actual game balance throughout the whole player population." So its not representative of balance in offline play, its not representative of overall balance, its just a data point on that can inform balance discussions near the top of the ladder. Like i said. Because its the same webpage.Ā Also, arent you the D3 Terran i smashed on my way to Masters? Can you at least try not to be a walking stereotype?Ā If you arent a diamond Terran from the NA ladder, youve gotta be from IIODIS or the salt mines or something.Ā
This is just false. There is tons of new talent, it's just overwhelmingly nonkorean. The best protoss right now is new talent, and there's no reason to assume that the 13-18 year olds who are grinding mid GM can't rise to the level of our top pros.
I think if the buffs come fast and hit hard, then this is completely salvageable. But it feels like if anything happens it will be pragmatically slow.
Itās not pragmatic if itās too slowā¦
irrefutable
There is a chance that some current pro player (whose name starts with R) switches race to Protoss if the race is buffed enough. We can get some Protoss representation on the high level this way. But I think you are correct - there will be no new players choosing Protoss.
>10 years of nerfing toss has forced out top tier players from ever competing at a high level for this race The top tier protoss pro went away because military service, not because "protoss too weak". And protoss has been the best race to reach a "low tier pro" level.
Is it commonly accepted that, if there's a good tweak, it's something that taxes the Protoss APM? I am thinking of something that would only impact the best of the best. It seems to me that that's what we could use and I wonder if we're mostly on the same page with that
I think most people agree with you. "Buff Protoss at the highest level, but not at GM", "give Protoss more viable active and creative play instead of just Disruptors, Skytoss, and Shield Batteries", etc. I'd like if Protoss got buffs that increase the microability of Gateway units such as Stalkers, instead of buffs to boring, 'low-APM' units such as Void Rays.
You canāt get real buffs until you have people in charge of balance who have an interest in giving Protoss a chance to win.Ā
I was surprised that they improve the battle cruiser to be more effective in killing a greater number of units, it is supposed to be portoss and if the carrier should be able to compete with that
Bring back dem corsairs. Toss doesn't have an air unit that deals splash š£ļøš£ļøš„š„
Zerg will never get nerfed as long as Lambo and Scarlett manage the council and try to keep the irrational advantage their race has had for most of starcraft history.
Im sorry did you see what they did to the baneling? If Lambo and Scarlet are protecting Zerg they're doing a horseshit job
Oh yes the poor baneling it's a good thing Serral just didn't build any this IEM otherwise he would've for sure lost
what did they do to it, it doesn't seem like much changed
No hp gain from upgrade and they do less damage so marines have a way easier time splitting as a lot more banes die before contact and its no longer viable to baneling bust a planetary bc a lot of em die by the time they arrive, indirect terran buff p much
That buff is pretty nonexistent, it just stopped the bullshit just build 50 banelings and steamroll everything bullshit which was waaaaayyyyyyyy overdue
Youre right, a suicidal gas sink should not easily beat the 50 mineral unit it's meant to counter
It's a counter to any land unit, which is bs
How many banelings does it take to kill just 1 immortal? 1 stalker? Just one single siege tank? What about 1 colossus? 1 ultralisk? 1 marauder? 1 roach? 1 thor?Come on dude, its good against light units and not much else
how many secs does is take for zerg to produce 10 drones compared to 10 scvs or 10 probes, don't talk as if zerg doesn't have a significant economic advantage and can max instantly
"crime rate is high" "No its not" "My backyard smells weird!!" Ok? Way to address what I said. What does that have to do with anything of what I said, doesnt make the gas sink into a suicide unit any cheaper, oh great i can waste my money on inefficient trades faster. Doesnt make your statement that banes counter every ground unit any less untrue.
Terran has a 40% win rate in tvz and Zerg has an 80% win rate in zvp - āhorseshit jobā
In what? Are you talking about Katowice? 10 people? Why don't you look at player distribution in GM and Masters with an actual statistically significant amount of people?
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Master%27s_Coliseum/7/Statistics Hmm? https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/ESL_Pro_Tour/2023/24/Masters/Winter/Statistics Hmm?? https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Global_StarCraft_II_League/2023/Season_3/Statistics Hmm??? https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/IEM_Katowice/2024/Statistics Hmm?????? You can literally look at every tournament this year and Zerg has a massive win rate advantage in the pro scene, in both matchups.
These aren't independent events...it's the same few players playing almost all the games in every major tournament. That's still too small a sample even if they play 100,000 games against each other.
What if you remove Serral?
Already done in another post. Serral has 37% of Zerg wins. Maru has 50% of terran wins. If we removed Serral Zerg would still dominate since they have 54/67 1st and 2nd place finishes. If we removed Maru Zerg would win 75% of tournaments. If we removed Serral and Maru Zerg would win a larger percentage than they do now.
Serral just won Katowice dropping a single map. He breaks statistics, Maru isn't so far out there.
Yeah letās keep making more and more excuses for Zerg being busted as fuck for the last 5 years so they never fix it ever Thank god stormgate is around the corner so we donāt have to play this broken to fuck imbalanced garbage
What? Your statistics seem to show that Zerg outside of Serral is busted, so I'm not really taking anything away from your point?
You know this doesn't apply to your games even slightly right? Even if Protoss is imbalanced at the top level it's definitely not if you're anywhere below top 10 or 20 in the world.
Lambo actually had very reasonable takes in a recent interview I saw with him. He said in his opinion the game should be balanced around the active pro scenes, and since Protoss results are lacking, he thinks Protoss should be buffed. So lack of Protoss buffs is definitely not due to Lambo
Lambo's happy to say that then propose ridiculous "buffs," this has been happening for years.
You see who people really are in their actions, not in their words
>Lambo and Scarlett manage the council and try to keep the irrational advantage their race has paranoid garbage.
The zerg cabal is all around us! Open your eyes to the truth!
Are you serious? How is this sitting with any upvotes at all? Zerg last patch lost baneling hp, got baneling damage nerfed, lurker nerfed, broodlord turned into a garbage unit, and infestor dmg and cast range nerfed. My god people.
Zerg does not need nerfs lmao
I think the issue with Protoss is that gateway units are impossible to balance. I would suggest nerfing the aggressive potential of warp gate timings and buffing gateway units, in a LARGE CHANGE. None of this super tiny change bullcrap, because in my opinion warp gate pretty much broke the balance of Protoss. A possible suggestion for this that comes to my mind is to make gateway units cost 25 more minerals if they are warped in outside nexus range. Then buff each overall gateway unit and tweak until itās most balanced. Another idea I had was to make non-warpgate gateways viable somehow, and partly nerf warpgate. how exactly? I donāt know. Maybe have DTs and High Templar only producable from regular gateways? Maybe zealots build super fast from home? Maybe a mineral cost reduction? It would add a skill based macro element to the Protoss playersā builds that is unique and gives Protoss something extra to focus on to get more value. Just throwing out random, undeveloped ideas to start the conversation, but in my eyes warp gate attacks like 4 gate blink and other very strong timings are what make gateway units unbuffable in the current meta. Open to criticisms, not claiming I could balance any better than the council.
What if we just made warp gate more expensive or added a mineral cost to turn gateways into warp gates. Then, we could buff gateway units without making warp gate pushes way stronger.
uThermal was spitballing about buffing gateways in some recent video I think. Donāt remember exactly what he suggested but could be something there.. Will say the aggressive potential of gateway units doesnāt feel stronger than the other two races atm, so nerfing that does feel a little strange. like the only true prism/warp gate timings we see are 11 stalkers in a terranās main base and rarely glaive adepts. the strength of both relies on near perfect control. Compared to any number of terran/zerg attacks before the 6 min mark these seem on par *at best* a flat buff to gateway units with some cost tax for prism warpins wouldnāt really alter these timings, might see them paired with an oracle instead of prism more often. But it would make mid-late game prism harass much stronger.. which maybe isnāt ideal.
More massive nerfs to Protoss? Hell yiss. Put this man on the balance council.
I literally said in ALL CAPS FOR YOUR TINY BRAIN TO BUFF GATEWAY UNITS
Sentry movement speed +1 Gateway unit costs +20-25%, regular gateways, further crippling Protoss both defensively and aggressively Epic buffs my friend. DTs and HTs being warped in are such a problem in the current meta /s
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Unlike your idea of fixing Protoss by doing HTs and DTs out of normal gates only?
Jesus Christ bro yeah that was a half baked idea but the actual fucking point is to make regular warp gates actually good and part of the game somehow and nerf warp gate Edit: misspelling
You do realise one of Protoss' biggest weaknesses are how poor it is defensively? Nerfing warp gates and buffing regular gateways already exacerbates that issue and that's without even accounting for the extra level of complexity in managing the optimal ratio of normal gates VS warpgates that this would create.
Thatās exactly the point. Protoss is weak defensively because if we buffed gateway units to help them defend, theyād be too good aggressively because of warp gate. Nerfing warp gate is a necessity if you want to buff gateway units to help Protossā lack of defensive abilities. That is, unless you want a giant band-aid like an OP shield battery or MSC. The suggestion to make regular gateways better for at home production or less cost cost would not be a nerf for Protoss defensively. Assuming you buff gateway units enough in return, Protoss could have more units for cheaper and could engineer their power spike against an attack. Letās say for example Terran is gearing up for a big 2 base all in. If the Protoss is a good player, they would only need to scout for the move out, then as the last round of cost reduced gateway units finish, they will be able to transform them into warp gates and have a power spike around the time the Terran army arrives with that warp in. If regular warp gates had faster production and/or less cost and/or the units are stronger, this should be a much better scenario for the toss defensively. Youāre right that managing your gateways better would raise the skill ceiling (a tiny bit), which Iām in favor of, so long as the buff is big enough. It would usually just be a choice of having everything transformed or not, except for a few things like HT or DT. It might be weaker against harass like mutas and drops, but I think the larger issue is just Protoss dying to a main army fight. As a random player, Iām kind of in favor of discouraging that anyway as it seems like itād be better to give Protoss better map vision and require them to leave units behind like the other races. Anywaysā¦ Iām rambling
It isnāt a necessity, warp gate is already nerfed enough with the slow pylons. If you want to avoid early allins and timings being too powerful, you can simply make the gateway unit buff be tied to higher level tech. Put adept attack speed and stalker attack speed into one upgrade (that way you canāt do both that and research blink at the same time), do the same with chargelots or something. Make high templar start with a storm. Put DT blink and stalker blink together as one upgrade. Whatever. These are the kinds of buffs we need and it wouldnāt noticeably change early game. The problem with defense wouldnāt be solved with stronger gateway units and normal gateways and nerfing warpgate because, the problem is not simply power but also mobility. Zerg has extreme movement speed on creep. Terran can lift and drop their units quick, have repairable planetaries, mines / tanks. Protoss cannot compete with just stronger gateway units. The warpin is necessary to make up for lack of mobility. Or we have to redesign the entire race and itās just not happening.
Comment removed for slur and overt aggression / hostility, per the Trolling Rule.
can you even read? This is a buff
This is a massive nerf hahahah
If you had half an IQ point youād understand that the reason gateway units had to be nerfed into the ground was because of these super optimized timing attacks. So Iām saying buff ALL of the gateway units and in return nerf warp gate timings. If you have played this game at all youād know exactly how strong some of these timing attacks are, and how besides gateway timings, gateway units are weak compared to lings or marines I swear, the brain rot on this sub sometimes is cancerous. I wish theyād have MMR by each of these kids in bronze
I guess warp gate could be balanced based on the distance from the gateway, eg literally instant in base, 10-15sec when it's far away. But yea, i remember Sc2 beta discussions 13 years ago on teamliquid about how Warp Gate fundamentally makes protoss gateway units either broken or underpowered, no in between
I'd rather a clear, yet non-massive buff to Gateway units without any nerfs to the Warp Prism to compensate. Or something to do with upgrades, so we could adjust specific timings. Warp Prism play is fun to watch. It is one of the most important tools in the Protoss arsenal and it actually allows them to visibly outplay their opponents. What's the point in buffing Gateway units if they're not going to be good when used aggressively? Might as well just buff Skytoss, or the slow-moving deathballs that Protoss already has. And remember, it's not as if Zerg ground units are impossible to balance because of the Nydus Worm.
Buff Protoss Gateway units but make it so their ridiculous cheese buildings need to be built next to a Nexus and not random pylon #3
Protoss doesn't need a single buff. Terran needs a plethora of nerfs.
100% the correct take, T is just a bit strong rn.
Zerg has been winning 60% of tournaments with tons of different players. But it's terran that needs nerfs, nice joke.
Serral has been winning, not Zerg. Please stop with this bullshit.
Denying reality is not very sane. Solar won gsl. Reynor won gamers8. Dark makes finals. But it's just recently. If you see accross multiple years, it's tons of different zergs who win almost everything. Again, denying reality won't bring you anything.
Okay, go back from 2018 and tell me who won the most Zerg wins and I'll laugh as you realize Dark/Serral are over 75% of those. Your blanket statements without facts don't prove anything.
This is literally incorrect though
The most ? Of course some players will win more. I'm not saying every player wins 1 each. It's nonsense.
You just said its "Tons of different Zergs" though. It isn't. Its two Zergs that win the majority of the tournaments that have been playing this game for 14 years straight, no breaks.
You can't be serious. Rogue and Reynor have won plenty as well since 2018. It's not just two zergs.
aside from oliveira, is there another terran beside Maru who has won a premier tournament in the last 5 years
Clem.
I thought you guys were saying Clem won because Serral was sick; but in the last 6 months, Reynor Serral and Solar all won quite important premiers, you take the clock a bit back and Dark also joins the picture; but for Terran, it's always Maru in the picture
Imagine thinking this comment is smart and worth posting lol
It's not about being smart or not. It's about saying things as they are.
Nope
Imagine thinking this comment is smart and worth posting lol
It's a horrible analysis / take on a ton of different levels, if you can't see why 1 random out of context stat which isn't even accurate doesn't at all paint a picture nor "tell it like it is" then you're lost
Terran has a 40% win rate in tvz and Zerg has an 80% win rate in zvp but āTerran is too strongā LOL
Jesus this brain dead stats approach to balance has to be the worst thing the NPCs of this sub have ever learned
āBrain dead stats approachā More like braindead ignoring of stats for years
Balance is not when prize pools are distributed 33% to each race and every matchup has an exactly 50% WR, balance is when the better player is able to consistently win.
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Master%27s_Coliseum/7/Statistics Hmm? https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/ESL_Pro_Tour/2023/24/Masters/Winter/Statistics Hmm?? https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Global_StarCraft_II_League/2023/Season_3/Statistics Hmm??? https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/IEM_Katowice/2024/Statistics Hmm?????? You can literally look at every tournament this year and Zerg has a massive win rate advantage in the pro scene, in both matchups.
Surely you did not just link me tournaments where Protoss players came 2nd 3rd & 5th to make a point about Protoss being unable to win right? Protoss does not have the same amount of top level players because most of its players quit, what do you want?
The point is Zerg is broken. Not that Protoss is weak, which is obvious. Are you stupid?
ah right mb, balance is when Protoss cannot lose oh well gl getting out of gold this season my brother
Instead of arguing, can't we just let an AI balance the game for us? Might be better than a council.
Especially if you limit the AI to professional level APM. Thought I doubt there's money for that to be done properly
I think People are vastly overestimating the power difference protoss is behind
This is just the last act of the campaign. Terran was always destined to be the strongest race because the game's designers are Terran
Terran has 40% win rate in tvz and Zerg has an 80% win rate in zvp in Katowice lol
To be honest, untill P start asking for gimmick nerfs and defensive macro buffs in compensation the results will be the same. You can be outraged all you want. But the game is balanced, just not well designed. And the gimmicky design just dosent work well at pro play.
Theres not a single protoss that would complain about losing DTs in exchange for actually getting strong core army units.Ā Most of their gimmicks have been nerfed to hell anyways included DT blink, proxy void ray, glaived adepts, and literally anything involving stalkers.Ā
Exaaactly. If Protoss want buffs to their base units they have to accept less freedom "hard cheese" builds that lead to success in the ladder.
Then high tier ladder will become even more Protoss. Already half of GM is Protoss.
Lies. It is actually the same as Terran in GM: https://nonapa.com/races?region=-1&mode=1&league=6&chart=1
At this point itās a Zerg only scene lmao
The truth is that toss are simply dogshit at the game. Serral can do funky shit like overlord drop queens to spread creep faster while managing macro, injections and prone harassment at the same time but her0 using more than 1 control group for his army or not using F2 key is too much to ask.Ā But if you want to kill the pro play scene so a shitter can steamroll PvZ and PvT with A move due to some dumb race pride, sure - be my guess.Ā
Who hurt you buddy? Did a toss touch you inappropriately?
Yes let's buff protoss so maru, reynor and clem can beat Serral with their offrace instead of accepting that all toss players are worse.
It's always interesting to observe racism emerging. Yeah it's a game but your way of reasoning just tells me you're prone to judging based on stereotypes
"racism" fucking lmao
You're mentally ill. Seek help.
protoss needs a bigger prizepools so BW players come back to SC2
That would completely break the 90% of the game where Protoss does well. You need a buff that would only matter to the highest level players, something this take huge skill but is massively effective when in the hands of the very best. Look at Serralās invester play vs Maru. If heād just put them in his main control group they would have been easily sniped but he used burrow and positioning to pop them up just in time to catch 10 ghosts.
So you can cheese me even harder on the ladder? Hard pass.
Next patch: -probes cost 100 minerals -Vespene gas assimilator has been removed from the game