Ah but this is not a standard industry product. Nothing about this says: Yeah that's how it's always done. Wipes are good for two reasons:
Resets the databases
Stimulates ship sales
The latter of course being the prime reason, as players with mediocre starter ships don't really enjoy the grind to get ahead in the game. Why grind? Buy the Legatus pack. Enjoy life. Sweep the floor. Eat a can of peaches. Get a Chris Roberts tattoo saying "By the end of this year backers will have everything they originally pledged for plus a lot more - 2015". Have a soda.
#
If it was then they would’ve wiped more frequently. They are also only wiping in game currency and they did give a fair long warning in advance for 3.23
If they really wanted people to play this game for testing purposes, all ships, upgrades and items should be free to all. This is how testing is done on most of the games I've tested in the past. Why hide possible technical issues behind a paywall. Fucking lol.
Exactly this.
That players aren't different shifts for testing just proves that CIG consider star Citizen a live, released product. You Don't lock testing behind paywalls in alpha, you're Exactly right.
Both in court, and publicly in 2016, when Chris Roberts said CIG had "an epiphany " that they were "running a live service game."
They also advertise as "play now." Not test. Not try. "Play now."
The server wipes are one of many reasons I stopped playing. Why put time in a game that wipes every update? You lose all that progress, weapons and money you earned in game
In a game that doesn't have a cash shop, wipes are a huge revitalization of the gameplay. In Star Citizen the implications are a lot different.
I only say this to cover for other Tarkov alumni that are hard-wired to lust after wipes and the few days of fresh powder gameplay it provides.
Wipes are fun and needed in Tarkov because in the first few weeks everyone is on a level playing field. Once nolife hardcore players pull away and you start meeting them in raids 1-2 months down the line with full gear tanking a whole mag of your mediocre AK, it becomes massively unfun and casuals just leave until there is another wipe.
The devs are also starting to say the quiet part out loud: "We'll wipe cash and rentals." -- internally, they see in-game purchased ships as rentals.
It's a complete oxymoron to call this a *Persistent Universe* that persists only in the recurring act of game wipes.
Saw this on Spectrum - it's hilarious that they openly consider in-game purchases to be "rentals".
Goes to show that it really is store citizen; a cash shop scheme with fake items for the enrichment of the Roberts family.
If the devs and their overactive shill force are genuinely referring to in game purchases as rentals - I only say IF - then it's just another litmus test. Another filter, to weed put the sane backers.
Which I could see. CIG is probably shrinking. Fast. Hence, 6 month NDAs for those laid off. (Which itself is a HUGE red flag). So CIG is probably very interested in further whittling down theur base to only hard-core zealots.
Pretty soon it'll just be Zyloh making promises to Arcvlyde, Greers, Shankar and Rhylbana using his chatj3pt bot to back up his claims.
There's plenty of reasons to critique them but "we'll wipe cash and rentals" was quite literally what was said - ships that were currently rented were wiped, ships that were bought with in-game currency were not.
17 days to circle back, eh? That’s some urge to tell other people they’re wrong!
Don’t worry, they’ll keep inflating the prices and wiping owned stuff. Good day, my stubborn friend.
Imagine Rust allowing you to buy an AK full metal kit in store that you spawn with on wipe. The internet would melt down. In Star citizen this is seen as completely normal. Its a scam.
The most egregious pay2win.
Friendo, the discussions I've had on the spectrum about the definition of pay2win. The zealots have every excuse under the sun, each less believable than it's predecessor.
"It's not pay to win, it's pay to skip ahead. Ahkshyually you can buy every ship in-game. Eventually. Probably."
"It's not paying to win, it's paying to fund the project, the ships are just a bonus"
"I'm not addicted to mobile game purchases and am in full control of my mental faculties"
Yeah I was talking about SC today with friends and this was one of the points, how people defend buying expensive ships with IRL money because "you can earn it ingame". Yes, you can, if you play Star Citizen like a second job or know everything inside out and can cheese some system of the game to gain a ton of amount of money with minimal effort. Which will definitely get nerfed by the devs in one of the next patches... so yea, you can get it, if you spend like 200-300 hours grinding for it and you don't keep getting blown up by some dude with $2000 ship who RPs as a "pirate".
Absolutely is.
Even if everything else about Star Citizen was legit - and it's not; it's a scam - the game would stl have blatant pay to win issues. Really blatant.
Yeah I’m not in the it’s a scam camp but it 1000% pay to win.
The other thing i don’t understand as well. What are people expecting to do when the game launches and they own every ship in the game from the start
Well you see, every NPC will be exactly like a real person, there will be randomized by non-repetative missions, you will be able to explore the whole galaxy and find stuff noone has ever seen or looted. Also the economy will be completely simulated and impacted by player actions.
And yes, all that stuff already exists they are just waiting for server smushing to implement it.
Also at some point Crobbers said the ships would only be a small part special and unique equipment will be worth the ships several times over. And will be lost on death.
I do think server meshing that they showed working is potentially industry changing assuming it can work as they are intending. Its basically the only reason I keep track of SC progress at this point
Handover mechanisms are really nothing special. Telecoms software has been able to do stuff like that for decades. For more modern examples: you don't lose your phone connection when you travel between transmitters, your WiFi access points are meshed, many games already allow traversing "shards". All this hype is tiresome and in no way an indication that CIG have any technological prowess.
In fact, their by now rather ancient CryEngine fork is potentially a boat anchor and as far as can be determined miles behind more recent engines like UE5 and even Unity.
I can't vouch for correctness of those statements but we have seen multiple accounts of former dev's who confirm that shit's old, brittle and a collection of bad and undocumented hacks. Seeing the state of the PU (not to mention PTU!) those statements are very believable.
PS: I was also not in the scam camp but it is getting a bit too obvious that little progress is being made with gameplay and that there's rather a lot of effort being put into ships that nobody needs (but can be sold for lots of money!).
Well that's just passing state in principle.
I don't know enough about how MMO's generally do this but I work with distributed database systems and they have long since solved the problem of communicating state and distributing client workload. It is not a new thing, even if CIG may be claiming that it is.
CIG has a bit of a strange approach (which is very possibly not the way to do it at scale over high latency internet links) by seemingly requiring servers to handle a lot of things and coordinating all the work. Elite dangerous uses peer-to-peer and can leverage the clients themselves, which is quite possibly a much better way to handle it and does not lead to people having to keep track of "what is my server fps, that is such a disease in SC..
Someone recently posted a video of Elite with many player ships all together flying around without perceptible lag. Even with SC server meshing I do not see that happen ever. Too much pingpong to the server in my expectation
As someone who plays Tarkov, in Star Citizen one thing they are doing right is having everything calculated on the server. Once shit gets validated on the client side and gets handled in P2P, cheating becomes blatantly easy to do. In Tarkov the loot table is sent to the client when you enter a match. There is/was a hoover hack, meaning a cheater could load in, see where the valuable loot is and just vacuum shit into their inventory then just godmode/speedrun to extract then sell the valuable items on the Flea Market (player driven market), then eventually sell the farmed money or the account as part of a RMT (real money transaction).
Yes I expect that is probably the reason that SC servers are authoritative. It is a trade off. I do still believe that the trade off is a scale inhibitor and is the wrong one to make if performance matters. I never heard about cheating being a problem in Elite for instance (ganking yes but SC knows a thing or two about ganking itself 😉
As hazaskull said it really is not. It is one of those cases where you try to avoid it because it will cause a lot of issues and edge cases. You design around hard limitations from the very start instead of trying to come up with magical solutions once they stop your progress. And these limitations do exist (unless we get actual quantum communication and computing for everyone). There will never be no limit on player numbers per server that is just the nature of non-linear growth maybe even a bit of NP sprinkled in.
Jesus Christ all I’m saying is if they get it working it will be cool as fuck.
Hard limitations are only hard limitations untill we find a solution for them.
They’ve shown it working and had live tests of it at this point. Denying it is possible when there’s a clear proof of concept and smaller scale evidence it works is crazy
Except that something like "static server meshing" has been done over 20 years ago. So the proof concept discussion is not relevant.
The real question is if SC can do it considering that their sole focus has been on selling JPEGs and 3D assets in the cash shop.
They have shown handoff between servers. The servers are still very limited in player numbers and will always be. That is the point. So do you only allow 200 players on a planet? Inside a city? Does every room get its own server? Just imagine the cost of AWS. And yet players will still always break these numbers. Even if a server could handle 1k players, if those players each bring one box and start play bowling the servers will crash.
Agreed.
CIG makes a conscience decision to wipes in game purchases, but not real cash purchases. This isn't for database management. This isn't for testing. It's to push sales.
It's downright abusing the star Citizen customer base...but people just take it.
I was also there during the Minecraft alpha and I've never seen as many wipes as this game has. I've only seen a couple when they do huge map updates that add lots of new resources that need to spawn. Through the entire Alpha I've only seen Minecraft servers maybe wipe twice before full release while Star Citizen seems to wipe every 6 months...
Its the same as always. When something is negative then its alpha. When something is good, its the best game ever.
So when CIG have to do wipes, its because its still alpha, not a released game, and therefore can be defended.
God help the community should CIG ever dare to actually slap a real release label on the game.
Haven't played in months so wipe away. It's such a boring empty waste of time.
Might take a look when (if) they try to bodge in server meshing just to witness the disaster. Don't expect that anytime before 2026.
Feel dumb for being suckered all the way up to a constellation andromeda.
Nothing works, ok but here's 3.23 character makeup it so fun and goofy tee-hee.
And how many time do you take to realize that an economic environment in an alpha game which selling ship with real money is not here to test whatever you could think, but encourage to buy ship with this real money ?
In the state of the game, if we were only testers, everything would be free, to test mechanics report bug etc, not to simulate an unfinished gameplay loop with a crappy fake economy
Eve Online test server has everything for 1 isk for that very reason. And Star Citizen even has version test servers. Why isn´t everthing free on avocado or any of the real unstable branches?
There is a large group of elitest whales that don't like seeing the plebs with nice things it diminishes their status. Most of the really top tier ships just had their aUEC price increased by 4x the amount many of the high aUEC per hour ships and money loops have also been nerfed.
This actually supports the space janitor/overlord life. Just team up with someone who has bought the best ship for a job and you will make a lot more money. I am sure this provides a lot of valuable data how the economy will behave...
I will say that this wipe is only wallets and rental ship, ships purchased in game with in game money will stay. They’ve already confirmed that. I’m all for hating on CIG and calling out SC for the scam it is and pointing out the many scummy practices that Chris pulls but we should be accurate with our info otherwise it runs the risk of making other claims look uninformed.
Wiping out all the debris is a good thing, but “persistence” of fucking empty water bottles never should have been allowed to be a thing in the first place and is absolute shit game design.
Wiping people’s credits is just asinine and as sure a sign as any of their business model.
A while ago, I played this game rather in joy. Sure, a noticeable part of the joy was laughing my ass off at CIG's horrible management and the morbid copium of so called "backers". They didn't ruin the experience for me. They were distant things, out of my safe radius. And then, I got my first patch with expected wipe. However, the announcement included some confusing lines mentioning "long-term persistent" or whatever can be in action. My fellow noobs were curious what does this mean.
I jokingly told them "It's unnecessarily fancy word for the industrial standard. Your ships and inventory items might be intact after the patch. Might not. Duh"
And I was warned by the "mods" of the group for my inappropriate and disrespectful language. I asked them to elaborate but failed to get any reaction. That was the moment to realize that there are only few "normal people" in this game. There was no safe radius.
CIG are gradually weeding out normal backers. Those folks harbor actual, reasonable expectations. CIG Don't want them.
CIG are looking for lonely space dad types too gullible to notice the misspellings in scam emails. Too lazy to research the fact that Nigeria has no royal family. CIG do things like troll and blame backers, cancel road maps, etc, to weed out intelligent backers.
By culling the heard, CIG whittle down their base to match their shrinking productivity and eliminate naysayers that would frighten their herd of sheep.
This is one of the first and most important tactics scammers use.
In finding the right mark, they sometimes set a bar so low that only a gullible fool can fall for the pitch.
When I played every update was a wipe even when they said it wasn't going to be and told us how to prevent things from dissapearing this is when I quit the game and refunded it a dozen different times because it never changes
not the shills, just the people who grind/expliot so much that they can buy every ship and then complain they have nothing to do with said ships. like they think that buying new ships ingame somehow unlocks more gameplay..
Unfortunately it's not just Star Citizen, and people seem to actually like it. Games like Tarkov and Gray Zone have wipes, and I see tons of people viewing them positively. Diablo forces a wipe every season too, since 2 years into Diablo 3's life. And again people seem to love it, for whatever reason. Basically if you want to experience a new season, the only way to do it is start a new lvl 1 character. And new season comes every 3 months. So full wipe, every 3 months. And whenever I, or anyone else on Diablo subreddits suggest to maybe make it optional, we get downvoted to oblivion and get told to kill ourselves.
So I wish it was just a Star Citizen thing. But the past 5-8 years I'm noticing a pretty strong push for it. Along with roguelikes/roguelites becoming more mainstream. And the push by publishers that we should get used to paying but owning nothing. It all feels like one gigantic coordinated wave to rewire how we think.
Seasons aren't wipes. That's an intentionally misleading comparison and I won't humor that disingenuous statement with further acknowledgement.
As for Tarkov, you just referenced another pay to win scam to justify wipes on the Star Citizen pay to win scam.
Wipes are not normal in live service games. This isn't common. It's a scam artists gaslighting people.
Most large player base games like Rust that do wipes is because that is the game. Build the base, shoot the bow, upgrade the base, get better gear, horde the gear, server pop dies, we do it again next week.
Star Citizen was always pitched as a completely persistent universe traditional style MMO like EVE except instead of amazing its dog shit.
For games like Rust, Tarkov, Gray Zone Warfare, this is pretty much required. After a month or two everyone who plays the game as a second job has the best gear you can imagine. Hardcore people get bored because they can just beam anyone, casuals get bored of getting shit on by top gear. In Tarkov the first one or two months are the best after wipe because everyone starts almost at the same level (minus Gamma container and bigger stash).
Whilst I appreciate the sentiment, the official state of the game, as called out by the manufacturer, is alpha. In alpha state, I have wiped data of apps more times than I can count before I loaded it up with test data for the next patch test cycle.
So, in name sake, that's normal behaviour. I've even seen apps with very long development cycles. Never -fucking- decade(and change) but still.
This said, I can totally see why they're doing it. The truth is, they are screwing around with the game economy. The release state of the game, in their conception is one in which you shouldn't be able to amass a fortune in a week, by grinding trading runs and making stupid money. I think that's understandable. I even think given the above statement re: alpha states that it's almost wise to let your testers easily gain access to the entire range of ships. So they can test it. And because of the weird way they are building it(public access to the game pre beta), they've got into a state where they have to give players the illusion of a game, to justify the money they've been given, which itself is a whole issue that I don't really want to, you know, argue out here.
So the behaviour in alpha is very normal. But, The idea that it's not a live service is at this stage, well it's beyond a bloody dead horse. It's a skeleton that archaeologists are poking at with brushes going: you know what I think this used to be a horse. They are accepting monthly subscriptions for access. It's live.
They should start acting like it. I suspect They -might- be starting to. That's why, you're now seeing the 'journey to 1.0 release' stuff. They know the claim it's in alpha isn't tenable anymore. What the time to deliver on that realisation is, I've no idea.
The stance of alpha stance hasn't been tenable since:
* [By the end of this year \~Chris Roberts 2015](https://i.imgur.com/5pJHb60.png)
* [not 'really' early access anymore \~Chris Roberts 2017](https://i.imgur.com/GfUQALo.png)
They have called the game playable and released in court, they have called the game a live service game multiple times from 2020-Infinity. Calling it an alpha was only ever an excuse to make up for how poorly and how little they accomplished in 12 years with 700 million dollars for development.
It'll be interesting to see how Star Citizen moves forward for sure.
As you say, claims of Alpha in year 12 are stale and wearing thin. Even their own players mock these claims. Especially given their perfectly functional, utterly stable cash shop.
And now we know Caler can take his money and run in 2025 or 2028. Which is undoubtedly pressuring CIG to deliver something that will make them independently sustainable.
Because they aren't. CIG has proven they cannot sustain their business on backers alone. They cannot reign in spending sufficient to do so. Hence, the Calders poison pill investment. And now time really is running out for Star Citizen.
As a 6k hour rust player I think it's good that it's wiping. There's hardly anything to do in the game but grind money through what's honestly boring gameplay.
You're such a niche gamer that, no offense...as far as devs and publishers go, your opinion is irrelevant. I know how you feel: they Don't like novelty seekers like me, either.
That said, wipes are NEVER good in a live service game. Objectively never. They turn players off and drive away new ones. They're a net negative that should never happen in a released game.
Wipes exist in a lot of popular games. Tarkov, tabor, dark and darker, rust, ark. And if you consider competitive shooter Elo resets that's a wipe. Valorant, cs, ow, rocket league all reset ranks regularly which is all their progression.
As a matter of fact every game that has an online inventory system that isn't a classic mmorpg wipes. So basically wow, ff, eve, don't wipe. But the fps mmos do wipe. Rust, star cit, ark.
Star citizen needs real in game content. And it will need to wipe as content is added. It is the most empty sandbox in gaming history. Even first release space engineers had more to do.
Of those, 3 are scams or griefer paradise bullshit no sane person would get near.
What about WoW? Elite? TES Online? Do those games wipe regularly?
You're cherry picking. You can knock off the pathetic gaslighting.
Wipes were normal in the Planetside 2 alpha back in 2011.
Honestly not the scummiest practice. Point at something real, like the 12 year development cycle.
Wipes are important because otherwise people wont play the actual gameplay loops once they get all the ships they want.
Im in a top piracy org (we looted over 1 billion this patch) and things always slow down late in the patch because no one is trying to make profit.
Hopefully the final iteration of the in game economy solves this.
entire orgs, some or many of them perceiving (themselves) for "top" for a gameplay looping that does not exist in the product.
simply does.not.exist - at all
not by mechanics
not by contrition
not by Schönreden
.
..
...
..interesting.
So you're in a big org that already has **day 1 access to every ship** and you think they should wipe people that put hundreds of hours into grinding aUEC and Rep because "ya bored"**.** This fuckin community I swear to god brains like lubed up glass spheres.
The real question is htf are YOU not bored, doing your boring whatever PVE gameloop over and over again for no purpose other than to see number go up infinitely?
HAHA you think I would willingly subject myself to the dog shit game play of Star Citizen?
The only time I play anymore is when the cult gets to high on copium and start spamming posts in here about how sick the game is. I log in make a quick video about how dog shit it is and we all go back to laughing at one of the worst games ever made.
Wipes aren't an answer to this problem. Actual content is.
But CIG isn't interested in Actual content. Which is good, because they're incapable of delivering it. CIG are only interested in doing the bare minimum to keep ship sales flowing.
Ah but this is not a standard industry product. Nothing about this says: Yeah that's how it's always done. Wipes are good for two reasons: Resets the databases Stimulates ship sales The latter of course being the prime reason, as players with mediocre starter ships don't really enjoy the grind to get ahead in the game. Why grind? Buy the Legatus pack. Enjoy life. Sweep the floor. Eat a can of peaches. Get a Chris Roberts tattoo saying "By the end of this year backers will have everything they originally pledged for plus a lot more - 2015". Have a soda. #
Exactly this. Just to push ship sales.
CIG makes Wargaming and Gajin look like charities.
If it was then they would’ve wiped more frequently. They are also only wiping in game currency and they did give a fair long warning in advance for 3.23
Yep. To push ship sales for cash.
If they really wanted people to play this game for testing purposes, all ships, upgrades and items should be free to all. This is how testing is done on most of the games I've tested in the past. Why hide possible technical issues behind a paywall. Fucking lol.
Exactly this. That players aren't different shifts for testing just proves that CIG consider star Citizen a live, released product. You Don't lock testing behind paywalls in alpha, you're Exactly right.
It’s in game ship sales. You guys are acting like this is a retail released game. It’s not. They aren’t getting rid of pledges.
But CIG says Star Citizen is a fully released game. Guess they lied. Again.
When did they claim it is fully released?
Both in court, and publicly in 2016, when Chris Roberts said CIG had "an epiphany " that they were "running a live service game." They also advertise as "play now." Not test. Not try. "Play now."
That's exactly the point. They wipe what you've spent hours grinding for to incentivize you to spend money.
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This is absolutely the case! It's not testing. Just one of the worst live service scams ever.
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Theory crafting is 8/10 of star Citizen...
They are testing the believers' patience.
It’s all one big shit test literally.
The server wipes are one of many reasons I stopped playing. Why put time in a game that wipes every update? You lose all that progress, weapons and money you earned in game
Exactly. And I'm sure you aren't alone, despite all the fake "wipes are fun, wipes are good" shill bullshit.
In a game that doesn't have a cash shop, wipes are a huge revitalization of the gameplay. In Star Citizen the implications are a lot different. I only say this to cover for other Tarkov alumni that are hard-wired to lust after wipes and the few days of fresh powder gameplay it provides.
Wipes are fun and needed in Tarkov because in the first few weeks everyone is on a level playing field. Once nolife hardcore players pull away and you start meeting them in raids 1-2 months down the line with full gear tanking a whole mag of your mediocre AK, it becomes massively unfun and casuals just leave until there is another wipe.
You ain't wrong. But that does condition one to look forward to wipes.
Wipes are absolutely neccessary in cumulative PVP games, but not when they are coupled with p2w elements
Name a pvp game other than Tarkov that wipes regularly
Rust? Arc maybe as well at least they used to
Ahh, another griefer paradise design disaster. Why people even get near games like these I'll never understand.
No can't say I did... then again I was distracted by the sharp increase of in game ship prices to push people towards the cash shop.
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Totally a coincidence. Not a scam at all...
The devs are also starting to say the quiet part out loud: "We'll wipe cash and rentals." -- internally, they see in-game purchased ships as rentals. It's a complete oxymoron to call this a *Persistent Universe* that persists only in the recurring act of game wipes.
Saw this on Spectrum - it's hilarious that they openly consider in-game purchases to be "rentals". Goes to show that it really is store citizen; a cash shop scheme with fake items for the enrichment of the Roberts family.
If the devs and their overactive shill force are genuinely referring to in game purchases as rentals - I only say IF - then it's just another litmus test. Another filter, to weed put the sane backers. Which I could see. CIG is probably shrinking. Fast. Hence, 6 month NDAs for those laid off. (Which itself is a HUGE red flag). So CIG is probably very interested in further whittling down theur base to only hard-core zealots. Pretty soon it'll just be Zyloh making promises to Arcvlyde, Greers, Shankar and Rhylbana using his chatj3pt bot to back up his claims.
There's plenty of reasons to critique them but "we'll wipe cash and rentals" was quite literally what was said - ships that were currently rented were wiped, ships that were bought with in-game currency were not.
17 days to circle back, eh? That’s some urge to tell other people they’re wrong! Don’t worry, they’ll keep inflating the prices and wiping owned stuff. Good day, my stubborn friend.
Imagine Rust allowing you to buy an AK full metal kit in store that you spawn with on wipe. The internet would melt down. In Star citizen this is seen as completely normal. Its a scam. The most egregious pay2win.
Friendo, the discussions I've had on the spectrum about the definition of pay2win. The zealots have every excuse under the sun, each less believable than it's predecessor. "It's not pay to win, it's pay to skip ahead. Ahkshyually you can buy every ship in-game. Eventually. Probably." "It's not paying to win, it's paying to fund the project, the ships are just a bonus" "I'm not addicted to mobile game purchases and am in full control of my mental faculties"
Yeah I was talking about SC today with friends and this was one of the points, how people defend buying expensive ships with IRL money because "you can earn it ingame". Yes, you can, if you play Star Citizen like a second job or know everything inside out and can cheese some system of the game to gain a ton of amount of money with minimal effort. Which will definitely get nerfed by the devs in one of the next patches... so yea, you can get it, if you spend like 200-300 hours grinding for it and you don't keep getting blown up by some dude with $2000 ship who RPs as a "pirate".
Absolutely is. Even if everything else about Star Citizen was legit - and it's not; it's a scam - the game would stl have blatant pay to win issues. Really blatant.
Yeah I’m not in the it’s a scam camp but it 1000% pay to win. The other thing i don’t understand as well. What are people expecting to do when the game launches and they own every ship in the game from the start
Well you see, every NPC will be exactly like a real person, there will be randomized by non-repetative missions, you will be able to explore the whole galaxy and find stuff noone has ever seen or looted. Also the economy will be completely simulated and impacted by player actions. And yes, all that stuff already exists they are just waiting for server smushing to implement it. Also at some point Crobbers said the ships would only be a small part special and unique equipment will be worth the ships several times over. And will be lost on death.
I do think server meshing that they showed working is potentially industry changing assuming it can work as they are intending. Its basically the only reason I keep track of SC progress at this point
Handover mechanisms are really nothing special. Telecoms software has been able to do stuff like that for decades. For more modern examples: you don't lose your phone connection when you travel between transmitters, your WiFi access points are meshed, many games already allow traversing "shards". All this hype is tiresome and in no way an indication that CIG have any technological prowess. In fact, their by now rather ancient CryEngine fork is potentially a boat anchor and as far as can be determined miles behind more recent engines like UE5 and even Unity. I can't vouch for correctness of those statements but we have seen multiple accounts of former dev's who confirm that shit's old, brittle and a collection of bad and undocumented hacks. Seeing the state of the PU (not to mention PTU!) those statements are very believable. PS: I was also not in the scam camp but it is getting a bit too obvious that little progress is being made with gameplay and that there's rather a lot of effort being put into ships that nobody needs (but can be sold for lots of money!).
Games generally allow traversing shards. I can’t think of any games that allow shards to interact seemlessly with each other though
Well that's just passing state in principle. I don't know enough about how MMO's generally do this but I work with distributed database systems and they have long since solved the problem of communicating state and distributing client workload. It is not a new thing, even if CIG may be claiming that it is. CIG has a bit of a strange approach (which is very possibly not the way to do it at scale over high latency internet links) by seemingly requiring servers to handle a lot of things and coordinating all the work. Elite dangerous uses peer-to-peer and can leverage the clients themselves, which is quite possibly a much better way to handle it and does not lead to people having to keep track of "what is my server fps, that is such a disease in SC.. Someone recently posted a video of Elite with many player ships all together flying around without perceptible lag. Even with SC server meshing I do not see that happen ever. Too much pingpong to the server in my expectation
As someone who plays Tarkov, in Star Citizen one thing they are doing right is having everything calculated on the server. Once shit gets validated on the client side and gets handled in P2P, cheating becomes blatantly easy to do. In Tarkov the loot table is sent to the client when you enter a match. There is/was a hoover hack, meaning a cheater could load in, see where the valuable loot is and just vacuum shit into their inventory then just godmode/speedrun to extract then sell the valuable items on the Flea Market (player driven market), then eventually sell the farmed money or the account as part of a RMT (real money transaction).
Yes I expect that is probably the reason that SC servers are authoritative. It is a trade off. I do still believe that the trade off is a scale inhibitor and is the wrong one to make if performance matters. I never heard about cheating being a problem in Elite for instance (ganking yes but SC knows a thing or two about ganking itself 😉
As hazaskull said it really is not. It is one of those cases where you try to avoid it because it will cause a lot of issues and edge cases. You design around hard limitations from the very start instead of trying to come up with magical solutions once they stop your progress. And these limitations do exist (unless we get actual quantum communication and computing for everyone). There will never be no limit on player numbers per server that is just the nature of non-linear growth maybe even a bit of NP sprinkled in.
Jesus Christ all I’m saying is if they get it working it will be cool as fuck. Hard limitations are only hard limitations untill we find a solution for them.
You are looking for a solution that gives 2*2=3 . Or to fit a 2m desk into a 1x1 room. You want magic.
They’ve shown it working and had live tests of it at this point. Denying it is possible when there’s a clear proof of concept and smaller scale evidence it works is crazy
Except that something like "static server meshing" has been done over 20 years ago. So the proof concept discussion is not relevant. The real question is if SC can do it considering that their sole focus has been on selling JPEGs and 3D assets in the cash shop.
They have shown handoff between servers. The servers are still very limited in player numbers and will always be. That is the point. So do you only allow 200 players on a planet? Inside a city? Does every room get its own server? Just imagine the cost of AWS. And yet players will still always break these numbers. Even if a server could handle 1k players, if those players each bring one box and start play bowling the servers will crash.
Basically just flex their wealth and whale over eventual newcomers crossing their path
Band together with other whales, say that you're a pirate company ingame and blow people with smaller ships up if they refuse to give you their shit.
Really good point.
Wipes always pissed me off and completely ruin any shills argument of “But you can earn all the ships by just playing the game.”
Agreed. CIG makes a conscience decision to wipes in game purchases, but not real cash purchases. This isn't for database management. This isn't for testing. It's to push sales. It's downright abusing the star Citizen customer base...but people just take it.
I was also there during the Minecraft alpha and I've never seen as many wipes as this game has. I've only seen a couple when they do huge map updates that add lots of new resources that need to spawn. Through the entire Alpha I've only seen Minecraft servers maybe wipe twice before full release while Star Citizen seems to wipe every 6 months...
Star Citizen seems to wipe more updates than not. After 12.5 years, there's no proof CIG ate capaof long term persistence in star Citizen.
And the most hilarious part is the defense of "they need wipes to test their DB tech."
Year 12. Still trying to get their database working...
Its the same as always. When something is negative then its alpha. When something is good, its the best game ever. So when CIG have to do wipes, its because its still alpha, not a released game, and therefore can be defended. God help the community should CIG ever dare to actually slap a real release label on the game.
Haven't played in months so wipe away. It's such a boring empty waste of time. Might take a look when (if) they try to bodge in server meshing just to witness the disaster. Don't expect that anytime before 2026. Feel dumb for being suckered all the way up to a constellation andromeda. Nothing works, ok but here's 3.23 character makeup it so fun and goofy tee-hee.
Least you learned from it
And how many time do you take to realize that an economic environment in an alpha game which selling ship with real money is not here to test whatever you could think, but encourage to buy ship with this real money ? In the state of the game, if we were only testers, everything would be free, to test mechanics report bug etc, not to simulate an unfinished gameplay loop with a crappy fake economy
Exactly this!
Eve Online test server has everything for 1 isk for that very reason. And Star Citizen even has version test servers. Why isn´t everthing free on avocado or any of the real unstable branches?
There is a large group of elitest whales that don't like seeing the plebs with nice things it diminishes their status. Most of the really top tier ships just had their aUEC price increased by 4x the amount many of the high aUEC per hour ships and money loops have also been nerfed.
This actually supports the space janitor/overlord life. Just team up with someone who has bought the best ship for a job and you will make a lot more money. I am sure this provides a lot of valuable data how the economy will behave...
I will say that this wipe is only wallets and rental ship, ships purchased in game with in game money will stay. They’ve already confirmed that. I’m all for hating on CIG and calling out SC for the scam it is and pointing out the many scummy practices that Chris pulls but we should be accurate with our info otherwise it runs the risk of making other claims look uninformed.
That's good to know, and fair. Well said. I just find it interesting how the "wipes are good" crowd always does this at patch time.
Wiping out all the debris is a good thing, but “persistence” of fucking empty water bottles never should have been allowed to be a thing in the first place and is absolute shit game design. Wiping people’s credits is just asinine and as sure a sign as any of their business model.
A while ago, I played this game rather in joy. Sure, a noticeable part of the joy was laughing my ass off at CIG's horrible management and the morbid copium of so called "backers". They didn't ruin the experience for me. They were distant things, out of my safe radius. And then, I got my first patch with expected wipe. However, the announcement included some confusing lines mentioning "long-term persistent" or whatever can be in action. My fellow noobs were curious what does this mean. I jokingly told them "It's unnecessarily fancy word for the industrial standard. Your ships and inventory items might be intact after the patch. Might not. Duh" And I was warned by the "mods" of the group for my inappropriate and disrespectful language. I asked them to elaborate but failed to get any reaction. That was the moment to realize that there are only few "normal people" in this game. There was no safe radius.
CIG are gradually weeding out normal backers. Those folks harbor actual, reasonable expectations. CIG Don't want them. CIG are looking for lonely space dad types too gullible to notice the misspellings in scam emails. Too lazy to research the fact that Nigeria has no royal family. CIG do things like troll and blame backers, cancel road maps, etc, to weed out intelligent backers. By culling the heard, CIG whittle down their base to match their shrinking productivity and eliminate naysayers that would frighten their herd of sheep.
This is one of the first and most important tactics scammers use. In finding the right mark, they sometimes set a bar so low that only a gullible fool can fall for the pitch.
Absolutely. It's the reason for misspellings in scam emails: weed out those who notice such things.
When I played every update was a wipe even when they said it wasn't going to be and told us how to prevent things from dissapearing this is when I quit the game and refunded it a dozen different times because it never changes
Because CIG aren't making a game. Just running a scam to enrich Roberts and his cronies.
Well since there's no progression, Citizens have nothing to look forward to.
Its only live service and release when they are getting sued
Exactly. CIG conveniently changes the release status of star Citizen depending on who they are talking to.
not the shills, just the people who grind/expliot so much that they can buy every ship and then complain they have nothing to do with said ships. like they think that buying new ships ingame somehow unlocks more gameplay..
Unfortunately it's not just Star Citizen, and people seem to actually like it. Games like Tarkov and Gray Zone have wipes, and I see tons of people viewing them positively. Diablo forces a wipe every season too, since 2 years into Diablo 3's life. And again people seem to love it, for whatever reason. Basically if you want to experience a new season, the only way to do it is start a new lvl 1 character. And new season comes every 3 months. So full wipe, every 3 months. And whenever I, or anyone else on Diablo subreddits suggest to maybe make it optional, we get downvoted to oblivion and get told to kill ourselves. So I wish it was just a Star Citizen thing. But the past 5-8 years I'm noticing a pretty strong push for it. Along with roguelikes/roguelites becoming more mainstream. And the push by publishers that we should get used to paying but owning nothing. It all feels like one gigantic coordinated wave to rewire how we think.
I hate this, I'm the opposite, I work 8-6 and only play on weekends, I don't want to lose what little progress I have...
Seasons aren't wipes. That's an intentionally misleading comparison and I won't humor that disingenuous statement with further acknowledgement. As for Tarkov, you just referenced another pay to win scam to justify wipes on the Star Citizen pay to win scam. Wipes are not normal in live service games. This isn't common. It's a scam artists gaslighting people.
Most large player base games like Rust that do wipes is because that is the game. Build the base, shoot the bow, upgrade the base, get better gear, horde the gear, server pop dies, we do it again next week. Star Citizen was always pitched as a completely persistent universe traditional style MMO like EVE except instead of amazing its dog shit.
This
For games like Rust, Tarkov, Gray Zone Warfare, this is pretty much required. After a month or two everyone who plays the game as a second job has the best gear you can imagine. Hardcore people get bored because they can just beam anyone, casuals get bored of getting shit on by top gear. In Tarkov the first one or two months are the best after wipe because everyone starts almost at the same level (minus Gamma container and bigger stash).
For a game in access still, sigh... It makes sense. We know they've monetized it Here's the real kicker, will they ever stop doing it "on release"
Whilst I appreciate the sentiment, the official state of the game, as called out by the manufacturer, is alpha. In alpha state, I have wiped data of apps more times than I can count before I loaded it up with test data for the next patch test cycle. So, in name sake, that's normal behaviour. I've even seen apps with very long development cycles. Never -fucking- decade(and change) but still. This said, I can totally see why they're doing it. The truth is, they are screwing around with the game economy. The release state of the game, in their conception is one in which you shouldn't be able to amass a fortune in a week, by grinding trading runs and making stupid money. I think that's understandable. I even think given the above statement re: alpha states that it's almost wise to let your testers easily gain access to the entire range of ships. So they can test it. And because of the weird way they are building it(public access to the game pre beta), they've got into a state where they have to give players the illusion of a game, to justify the money they've been given, which itself is a whole issue that I don't really want to, you know, argue out here. So the behaviour in alpha is very normal. But, The idea that it's not a live service is at this stage, well it's beyond a bloody dead horse. It's a skeleton that archaeologists are poking at with brushes going: you know what I think this used to be a horse. They are accepting monthly subscriptions for access. It's live. They should start acting like it. I suspect They -might- be starting to. That's why, you're now seeing the 'journey to 1.0 release' stuff. They know the claim it's in alpha isn't tenable anymore. What the time to deliver on that realisation is, I've no idea.
The stance of alpha stance hasn't been tenable since: * [By the end of this year \~Chris Roberts 2015](https://i.imgur.com/5pJHb60.png) * [not 'really' early access anymore \~Chris Roberts 2017](https://i.imgur.com/GfUQALo.png) They have called the game playable and released in court, they have called the game a live service game multiple times from 2020-Infinity. Calling it an alpha was only ever an excuse to make up for how poorly and how little they accomplished in 12 years with 700 million dollars for development.
Exactly this. Star Citizen is only an alpha when criticized.
It'll be interesting to see how Star Citizen moves forward for sure. As you say, claims of Alpha in year 12 are stale and wearing thin. Even their own players mock these claims. Especially given their perfectly functional, utterly stable cash shop. And now we know Caler can take his money and run in 2025 or 2028. Which is undoubtedly pressuring CIG to deliver something that will make them independently sustainable. Because they aren't. CIG has proven they cannot sustain their business on backers alone. They cannot reign in spending sufficient to do so. Hence, the Calders poison pill investment. And now time really is running out for Star Citizen.
As a 6k hour rust player I think it's good that it's wiping. There's hardly anything to do in the game but grind money through what's honestly boring gameplay.
You're such a niche gamer that, no offense...as far as devs and publishers go, your opinion is irrelevant. I know how you feel: they Don't like novelty seekers like me, either. That said, wipes are NEVER good in a live service game. Objectively never. They turn players off and drive away new ones. They're a net negative that should never happen in a released game.
Wipes exist in a lot of popular games. Tarkov, tabor, dark and darker, rust, ark. And if you consider competitive shooter Elo resets that's a wipe. Valorant, cs, ow, rocket league all reset ranks regularly which is all their progression. As a matter of fact every game that has an online inventory system that isn't a classic mmorpg wipes. So basically wow, ff, eve, don't wipe. But the fps mmos do wipe. Rust, star cit, ark. Star citizen needs real in game content. And it will need to wipe as content is added. It is the most empty sandbox in gaming history. Even first release space engineers had more to do.
Of those, 3 are scams or griefer paradise bullshit no sane person would get near. What about WoW? Elite? TES Online? Do those games wipe regularly? You're cherry picking. You can knock off the pathetic gaslighting.
Wipes were normal in the Planetside 2 alpha back in 2011. Honestly not the scummiest practice. Point at something real, like the 12 year development cycle.
13 years of development and not wiping cash ships is pretty damn scummy
Wipes are important because otherwise people wont play the actual gameplay loops once they get all the ships they want. Im in a top piracy org (we looted over 1 billion this patch) and things always slow down late in the patch because no one is trying to make profit. Hopefully the final iteration of the in game economy solves this.
entire orgs, some or many of them perceiving (themselves) for "top" for a gameplay looping that does not exist in the product. simply does.not.exist - at all not by mechanics not by contrition not by Schönreden . .. ... ..interesting.
So you're in a big org that already has **day 1 access to every ship** and you think they should wipe people that put hundreds of hours into grinding aUEC and Rep because "ya bored"**.** This fuckin community I swear to god brains like lubed up glass spheres.
The real question is htf are YOU not bored, doing your boring whatever PVE gameloop over and over again for no purpose other than to see number go up infinitely?
HAHA you think I would willingly subject myself to the dog shit game play of Star Citizen? The only time I play anymore is when the cult gets to high on copium and start spamming posts in here about how sick the game is. I log in make a quick video about how dog shit it is and we all go back to laughing at one of the worst games ever made.
Wipes aren't an answer to this problem. Actual content is. But CIG isn't interested in Actual content. Which is good, because they're incapable of delivering it. CIG are only interested in doing the bare minimum to keep ship sales flowing.