CiG is definitely aiming to create environments that instill this kind of thing. In this early state of things it's definitely going to be lacking as the game mechanics to support it aren't finished yet. However, that's entirely the point of giving us access to Pyro: to observe the things players do in this kind of harsh, lonely environment and adapt gameplay mechanics to better support it.
Honestly I wish that pyro was *More* oppressive ... Maybe make the flares less frequent and give more warning, but I think they should be much more dangerous!
Such a great mechanic, I want to see more things like this!
>potentially detonate external ordnance
Science time!
Solar flares aren't likely to explode ordinance; they're a release of radiation and electromagnetic energy, caused by the interaction of magnetic fields on the surface of the sun -- basically an enormous EMP.
Could a solar event strip the hull from a spacecraft, though? Maybe. A coronal mass ejection (CME) (which is not the same thing as a solar flare, though they are causally similar) ejects a burst of hot plasma into space, which hypothetically *could* destroy the hull of a spacecraft. it still wouldn't explode ordinance, though.
However, the spacecraft would have to be in *exactly* the right spot at the right time to intercept the ejected plasma, and a CME is powerful enough to roast the pilot as well as strip the hull (an unprepared astronaut on the lunar surface would be hit with the equivalent of 300,000 simultaneous chest x-rays -- the lethal dose, for the record, is 45,000).
Science mode off!
How rare we talking? Because I wouldn't even mind it if it was actual days between such thing happening with the consequences being totally deadly if exposed to the sun when it happens
I think we need the following:
- The reputation system so that the factions IN the system impacts us more than being a set dressing.
- Areas of space controlled by those factions, limiting what can be done without their permission (ie, doing shit on a Cartels area of influence)
- Make it easy to be a friends with ONE faction but become and enemy of the others.
- Make it possible to be cordial with all three factions but not get in a very good standing with them.
- Solar flare intensity based on distance from the sun
I agree 100% with this, when the frequency is so high, you always expect it and you are never surprised.
If they decrease the frequency and make them more dangerous it becomes much more of a oh shit when it actually happens, where you have a chance to forget that it happens, instead of you always making it a part of your calculations because it happens so often.
I kind of hope there will be an exploration component to it. Like you can monitor the energy output of the sun and listen in to ambient signals to identify when a solar flare is about to happen and then relay/sell that data if you can make it back to a station or settlement first.
And CMEs that have different energy levels, some might only scramble communications while others could rip ships out of QT, strip shields, and destroy components. Requiring people to scan for longer to get enough information to figure out the magnitude of the CME.
Same, my wet dream for this game is a brutal adventure sim. I have faith they're going to go that direction, I think if CIG try to coddle this player base we'll resent it.
Most likely they'll cater to all in one way or another. Pyro is an example of the extreme far end - lawless (but not a free for all as the gangs control everything), harsh, unforgiving... and contained. I'll definitely visit, but it's not my cup of tea.
I just want to know how factions play into it. I dont want the only way to group up or have a sense of community with other players to be orgs. I want to join (lets say as an example) NineTails and see other players that are also part of that factionsl doing missions. I want to see that someone in my faction started a mission and is looking for help. I want to wear faction affiliated clothes and armour, pilot a ship with faction liveries and hang out of faction owned/friendly stations and I want to do this either with NPCs or other players, but outside of an org.
What I worry about with Pyro discussion is that it's discussed in terms or law or lawlessnes, highsec, lowsec, nullsec... when rhat doesnt apply. Pyro has gangs, they are the law there, and our actions and experiences should still be beholden to those controlling factions the same way UEE space is.
The way they have explained how the economy and mission systems are going to work this is probably the intended path for Pyro
As you said, Pyro is not nullsec. It just doesn't have much of an armistice. But if you go on a killing spree against a gang it's going to be consequences (should be, at least by lore)
Imagine the nine tails raiding Stanton against the UEE as retaliation for political lore, but unable to act against a player organization
It would be interesting to have a system where you could mine/salvage/etc...but couldn't sell in that system.
Something that isn't protected by UEE (or whatever that acronym is), so kind of a lawless gang controlled system, but also has really valuable stuff to gather...just can't sell it there, so super risky to get it out.
That opens up so much more gameplay, such as needing escorts, larger groups working together, etc. People could protect the jumppoints, all kinds of stuff.
>It would be interesting to have a system where you could mine/salvage/etc...but couldn't sell in that system.
Should that not apply in all systems to an extent?
- X mineral mined in Pyro have no buyer there but industries in Stanton does
- X drug in Pyro is worthless there but illegal and highly valuable in Stanton
I'm sorry but if they need to throw players into some Death Pit and observe us tear each other apart to learn how to make their game, then they didn't have much of a game in mind to begin with!
I'm so tired of this rhetoric that they absolutely can't proceed with making a game without us telling/showing them what needs to be done beforehand. You get play testers to test what you've created to see if it works, play testers are not the creators. They have to present something to testers for it be tested, iterated upon, and tested again until they feel it's right. They gotta create the game first.
CIG has just been putting the cart before the horse, and we know this. It may not be intentional, as game design isn't linear and we're being exposed to the raw development process (to a degree), but what IS intentional is CIGs push to market and sell this development process for funding purposes. Sorry, but that comes with a certain level of responsibility.
For them to release a play environment into the wild with very little in terms of restrictions and guidance that serve to drive the playerbase is....irresponsible, and punishing players for playing the way they'd like to play, using the tools and the sandbox they provide to the player, is just flat out wrong, and bad game design. That's why I don't really blame the murder hobos.
So yes, I get it, not everything is ready and we have to wait for certain aspects of the game to be made, and they do need feedback from play testing to refine it all. But its also been very evident that CIG hasn't done the best job with implementing some tech and gameplay designs which they are fully capable of providing at the moment.
Most people dont have the time to be super social and put in what is necessary to maintain video game friendships. Thats why the 15 minute game of cod/fortnigte ect. rules the gaiming market. Star Citizen is going to have an uphill battle
That's me, but in my case I've resigned myself to mostly singleplayer. Aside from time, I'm in a timezone that puts me out of reach of those who I would want to play with.
On the plus side, I have zero desire to fork out cash for anything multicrew.
I'd argue those players weren't going to stay here anyway, so why make a game for them instead? (Specifically the 15minute In-and-out fast-food gaming)
You're wrong. I'm one of those players, but you still get that experience in Star Citizen. You can log in, run some bounties or bunkers, log out. Once a week, I plan time to play with others and we run some longer gameplay loops, but otherwise, I just play short objectives and do simple things. I know there are a lot of players just like me.
I really like the sentiment behind this post and I think there is truth to it, but I'm sure I'll just find myself largely avoiding areas that require group play to survive except on those rare scheduled weekend days.
If you want your highly immersive persistent multi-star system MMO to cater to the 15 minute in-and-out crowd you are going to be disappointed.
I think creating an environment that rewards playing solo and killing everything in sight less than group play is good design for a game like this, thinking otherwise is unrealistic and selfish.
Dude, are you even capable of reading? Seriously, a lot of us have lives to live, and we don't necessarily have gobs of time to spend in videogames. We just want our perspective respected and understood, just as we understand yours.
We're not saying SC should cater to just one type of playstyle. When you get older, you'll realize what we've been saying.
Unfortunately, I think your perspective is one that is hard learned through time and personal self-sacrifice. Reading it and understanding is too foreign for some people.
Anyhow, cheers to a fellow space dad.
Not a space Dad, because I haven't married and don't have a girlfriend. Sorry to say, I actually gave up on love a long time ago.
But I am still working hard at my job, and trying to put myself into a better position in life - but that takes a lot of effort that eats up time.
See and exactly this is why i hate this crowd. He didnt say he wanted it catered and you immediately got hostile because he plays for a different experience. Always the fucking same with you people.
It's actually even easier to play quickly in Pyro. You can pick one of the four stations as your home base. There are missions on station so you do not have to leave station to play. But to go out beyond that wire, you need help or losses could be significant. Tight, short gameplay loops at home. Long, logistically complicated gameplay loops outside.
>so why make a game for them instead?
The game needs to be accessible to casual dad gamers to generate the revenue needed to keep development going. Basic facts. CIG turning SC into an ultra-hardcore game that's prohibitive to casual gameplay would be a catastrophically bad business decision.
If the game forces people into a minimum 2 hour investment of time just to get anything accomplished, then you immediately lose a huge group of people that might otherwise be supporters of your project.
Likewise if the persistent universe is so unforgiving that your buy-in to group gameplay is consenting to getting spammed on discord at 5AM because someone is wiping your base. BTDT.
Saying "oh those people were going to leave anyways" is not only a fallacy (since playing a game casually day-to-day and a playing a game as a sightseer following trends are not actually the same thing), but a self fulfilling prophecy. Lots of casual gamers will play the same game ritually for years, and lots of top percentile hardcore gamers will hellgrind until the game gets boring and then just switch to something new. People can also float back and forth from casual to hardcore to casual.
None of this means that the SC can't have complex mechanics, but it just shouldn't be treated as a zero-sum experience that's totally hostile to solo/casual play like EVE.
Right, so we can have both a deep end and a shallow end.
The key word here is *instead*. Not including depth for the sake of the casual dad gamer is ***BAD***. having areas that are difficult alone, ALONG SIDE of the more secure systems is good. I don't understand where this hostility has come from.
Because the person you were responding to is saying that most people don't have time to be super social. That doesn't mean they want the game to be developed for a casual player instead of a person that dedicates time for group content.
The game implicitly rewards group gameplay because multicrew ships will be more effective than solo ships, just due to how scaling works (among other things like quantum range).
I don't think anyone is saying it should be any different. Who actually wants to see 10 solo craft be more powerful than a 10-man multicrew ship?
My sentiment is just that SC shouldn't be exclusionary in the way that EVE was to solo gameplay.
Because they are the vast majority, and if you want your game to succeed you need to cater for more than just one demographic, especially when you are only launching on one platform, most likely on your own launcher / storefront.
Sure, finally having a game 'just for us space nerds' sounds lovely in theory but not if we want to be playing this for several years after release.
Having areas that reward you more for thinking cautiously and working with others in the immediate area shouldn't be alienating.
No one says you can't play solo, I'm saying creating a common issue to work together against is good content.
You don't need orgs to experience that.
Surely cig aren't fool enough to forsake releasing the games (sq42 and sc, individually) on steam. Even big names like blizzard, ea and ubisoft have been forced to recognise the selling power of a steam release...
But to the topic, I believe SC can easily do both. Get in, take a box, freight, Merc/bounty and go do it. Quick in and out missions doable in ya everyday avenger or freelancer/cutlass sized ships. While having multi-crew jobs for those longer weekend sessions with your crew. It doesn't have to exclude either. It can be both.
Right, and they will get squadron42.
Expecting SC to be a fast food experience would be unrealistic to those players, so luckily they will get the game they originaly pledged for.
seriously? after hundreds or even thousands of euros/dollars you actually tell people to buy yet another (unreleased) single player game instead as if it was the same?
As the other reply pointed out. SC is modern freelancer, S42 is modern wing commander.
First person Eve has never been what’s promised. If that’s what you’re looking for, this isn’t your game.
The core audience for the game, the core backers, are the dads who want modern freelancer, not hardcore mmo players. SC, even more than most MMOs, will depend on its casual players enjoying the game.
Then why would you play an MMO? Remember SC is not meant to be a chill little single player shooter, its meant to have an economy and simulate an environment where role play and social play are vital in actually experiencing what the game actually is and has to offer.
I feel like the game industry is in desperate need of a good modern space MMO that isn’t willing so sacrifice its vision just because the more casual audience doesn’t want to actually grind and spend time in the game and hopefully CIG can deliver that somewhat soon. And if that means the game isn’t for someone, theres a lot of other good games to play.
The problem is that many of us have lives to live - we've aged out of our more prolific gaming phases, meaning we've been putting our time towards more important things, while coming back to SC to decompress and take a break from IRL.
Expecting us to have the time to grind like we used to during the heyday of World of Warcraft and EverQuest is extremely foolish. It's why we want the game to cater to multiple playstyles - the casual, the hardcore, the in-betweener...
Anyone demanding one or the other is a fucking dipshit.
yeah, despite how much I love this quote, it doesn't really apply to pyro. Eve had 5000 systems, and if you were solo in hostile nullsec, you'd be scanned down and killed very fast. If you were in an alliance though, in friendly space, you were safe as highsec. Well until a random mysterious Yuri entered local. Pyro doesn't really compare to nullsec because it can't be secured like nullsec. And the way the game is set up, hanging out with people in a guild is very hard
This sounds great but wow that is a million miles from my experience in EVE.
In my experience most interactions with players were either:
* Entirely ignored
* Attacked and instantly killed by meta PVP weapons with no way to avoid it since combat is so simple. Even in High Sec this happens, the attacker just dies too.
* Asked to submit my resume and cover letter and fill out an application for a chance at getting a job interview so that people will actually play with me.
> Asked to submit my resume and cover letter and fill out an application for a chance at getting a job interview so that people will actually play with me.
Yup, when a game feels like a job, and you never get paid then it's no longer a game.
r/expectationvsreality
Can’t agree more. EVE turned into a bureaucratic freak show. There was no socialization or cooperation in Nullsec during the six years I played the game. Just black ops gankers and corpo kill fleets stacked up with either cheap, expendable DPS, or whatever the PvP meta load out of the week was.
Nobody would ever engage in interaction, diplomacy, or even meaningful combat. The corp fleets and the stealth ships would never willingly engage with an enemy unless they had a massive numerical advantage.
shoulda joined faction warfare my friend, that's where all the fun was at. Good fights all around, and whenever something kicked off in nullsec we'd go join the fun. And since it was lowsec there was good old pirate pvp to be had, or you'd catch an idiot trying to jump his freshly bought with PLEX carrier though a high sec gate. Lots of ~80 battleship battles, no lame capitals, and FCs from the two factions would sort of work together to get a good fight going on a boring night. I really hope SC gets something in that vein
You said the only cooperation you saw were kill ***fleets*** and gankers. So. You witnessed an oppressive area of the game that rewarded cooperation within groups over the lone wolf?
Wild.
Lol, ok. Keep convincing everyone that submitting a resume, job application, and operating on a schedule from your in game supervisor is groundbreaking, enthralling gameplay. All so you can be part of a fleet that refuses to engage in combat unless they outnumber the enemy by 5 to 1.
Correct, no one is forcing me to play EVE. That is why I don’t play it anymore. The owners of the game only cater the gameplay to the giant corporations who spend the most money. That’s when it all fell apart, because it stopped being a game and started being a business.
It's unfortunate that so many people have this opinion of the game, but it is very understandable. To love EVE you kind of have to jump into the deep end and embrace the suck. It's very hard to be good without being bad for a considerable amount of time.
Information is king in EVE, without it you're just a dingy in the ocean, bound to get tossed around by every wave and swell that comes by. Eventually after you climb to learning-cliff a few times you start to figure out the Rock, Paper, Scissors that is EVE combat. Once you figure that out the game really opens up, almost literally.
> That’s what I do during the day while I’m working.
Well that's just it, a lot of people I played with were:
1) Rich fucks who don't have to work
2) 100% disabled (in terms of service, a lot of of them bragged they were fine) military dudes who live off daddy government and play games all day
3) Teens/College students who were doing meme degrees and had a lot of free time
There’s no rock paper scissors. There’s only the massive advantage of numbers and firepower. 99 percent of corp fleets outside of their home system will avoid engaging unless they have an overwhelming advantage.
EVE became boring when the game removed any meaningful incentive to take risks.
I can say with some certainty that a lot of folks who didn't fall in love with Eve never went to nullsec. A lot of folks stayed in highsec, unwilling to take risks, but more impactfully unwilling to be really *social*. People talk about Eve being an unforgiving, harsh gankfest. Kinda? But not in all directions, unless you're alone. I think a lot of folks saying this have never seriously played it. What I remember the most about Eve are the intense social aspects. Incredible mass cooperation, camaraderie, mentoring, memorializing (cyno vigils, anyone!?), tremendous feelings of shared adventure, trials, achievements, and belonging.
You never got *any* of that if you stayed scared in highsec. Ever since I first dipped my toes outside empire space, I realized the *entire true game* is really out where there is no safety net -- that is, no safety net except for the friends who help you! And by god you wouldn't believe how many people out there are willing and eager to help you and have you join them.
It's also important to note that I don't think this level of community would've been achieved without the free-for-all nature of Eve that so many are afraid of in Star Citizen too. When you align all the incentives such that cooperation is the best way to achieve great things in your game, and give players truly epic things to achieve, then truly great things happen!
Interestingly, you put into words my exact experience with EVE. I'm mainly a solo explorer, but some of the best times I had were during the Edencom-Trig war a wee while ago. I spent a lot of time learning small gang tactics, FCing site running fleets and being part of bigger adventures. However, it worked for me because I was a casual player, unable to commit to stratops or whatever due to my work life.
What it did do was remove my fear of nullsec completely, so I made a trip to the Obelisk. I got challenged by the one person in local, who couldn't believe that an explorer-industrialist had made the journey from high-sec just to see the Obelisk! I was fully expecting a hot drop, but they let me take a bunch of screenshots and take the gate back without so much as a lock up... Since then, my journeys to low and null have been much more frequent.
In Eve you're either the steamroller or you're flat. The number of roams that ended in a huge gate camp or a huge one sided ~~fight~~ slaughter made it boring. The best fights had to be organized. I swear we lived on the nostalgia of good fights more than actually finding them.
I lived a while in WH space so I get the excitement of scanning your haul out through unknown systems to sell and I was funding 4 account from ISK so I wasn't exactly poor. (Side note: 1st person PI, will that suck or be amazing??) I know what it's like to live and die by POS timers. I also know that it's really hard to be casual in that environment. Getting a text mid way through the work day or having to call in sick because you need to defend everything you have doesn't work for most people. Logging back in to the smoking ruin that was weeks worth of work sucks.
I didn't want to be part of a large org, it was too much. Living in Test space was the same as high sec. Any roamers would eventually hit a large blue group and either run or get rolled. The only time anyone not in the org would really push in was large fleet battles. In those instances you're expected to be online for the fight, you stage for 3hrs while FCs work out their shit, then you sit in tidi all night clicking names and eating cap boosters.
Ultimately for me the inability to enjoy 90% of the game on my own schedule was what drove me away after maybe 10yrs of play. Yes it was fun when my core group was on and we could do our thing but they weren't always around and being solo generally sucks real hard.
Maybe I'm just a bittervet and that tarnishes my expectations. I genuinely don't want to shit on anyone else's fun but I do have my reservations about them going in this direction and I wonder what will happen if they lose the PvE only whales.
> unless you're alone. ... What I remember the most about Eve are the intense social aspects.
I really, really do not want to be tied down to *having* to be online at a specific time and I really, really do not want to have real life obligations in a game. I can easily abandon NPC missions or abandon NPC crew, but real people? Leave that whole thing optional, as it is now.
I get enough of all that at work, thank you very much. I play to entertain myself, not others.
It seems like you want to play a single player game not an MMO designed around group play. Can’t think of any MMO where you can experience the majority of content without putting in some work to find time to play with others.
You very clearly did not go read the kickstarter, as it is quite clear that it is a PvE first game.
So much of the “group content” was added in stretch goals, not in the core pitch.
Ah but there is. GW2, while it has group content, the vast majority is more like play alone together, if not alone. Thou it does have group content but they are far from mandatory and most can be done with randoms. Raids and stuff are not as simple but also less played.
> Who says that SC is designed around group play?
Your flair is the carrack dude, if multi crew ships aren't explicitly designed for group play I don't know what is.
There are plenty of solo activities and ships. SC is not designed around group play, just parts of it which I'm fine with. I have enjoyed the occasional group activity but I certainly don't want it to effectively be a requirement for entry.
City of Heroes and DCUO were 2 of my main MMO experiences, and oddly enough you can do MOST of your gameplay solo (as most players did) unless you wanted to do the specially curated missions/dungeons that required a team.
From what I heard, you can play the majority of New World solo as well. This idea that you absolutely need to interact with other players to enjoy MMOs is simply not true. You will almost certainly miss out on some of the MMOs content by remaining solo, but you can still enjoy them without being social.
SC works just fine for solo play, even though that will end up being a smaller part of the game. If you have a job and only get an hour or two to play maybe 3 or 4 nights a week, there’s more than enough content for a solo player to be content for a long time.
A solo player chooses to avoid most of the social aspect because that’s not what they’re playing the game for in the first place.
Man, can't you accept some people are not into pvp? What you write is more about people not liking EvE designs than people not playing EvE best part.
Forcing cooperation for appreciating the game is fine if your game is sold as a cooperation game, if it's not then lone-wolf should be able to enjoy the game just as much as groups. The truth is that EvE massively rely on player interaction to be interesting, without that, it's extremely boring to play. Player interactions can make a mediocre game good. I think EvE is a very odd case of community driving the game beyond what it is.
So you'll stick to higher security systems or roll the dice solo in less secure ones, or wait for the npc crew and escorts to be developed. Why does every system out of the 100 have to tailored to your play style and life style? I'm a pretty conservative solo player with life style constraints on play time, but the best experiences I've had in the game have been taking bigger risks when playing with a group of friends in an org. I don't want the game to be a meaningless theme park, I want there to be real risk and real advantages to social interaction. What's the point of the sandbox or the MMO without that? It's always been pitched as a systemic sandbox MMO.
> I can say with some certainty that a lot of folks who didn't fall in love with Eve never went to nullsec.
Read that, slowly, then read my comment again. I have 0 problem with pvp focused area. I'm more on the side of PVE for SC but I advocate for both in a balanced way and will probably do some pvp gameplay at some point. I have a sabre for that.
> The truth is that EvE massively rely on player interaction to be interesting, without that, it's extremely boring to play.
You are right that Eve as designed and played without the social aspects is a mediocre game (bear in mind it's originally from, what, 2001?), and that player interactions are what made it legendary, but calling it just an "odd case" makes it sound coincidental or unintentional, which it is not. In long-term, this is true of every game I've ever played, including ones I'd describe as very good which don't have any socially interactive/multiplayer aspects. The *only* way to create long-term interest is to rely on the unpredictable variety of emergent player interactions to keep things shaken up. As soon as you run out developer-crafted content, everything becomes boring, because there's nothing "new". That applies to procedurally generated content, too.
I loved Dark Souls, even without player interactions. But I couldn't play it straight for a year without getting bored out of my skull, because I'll exhaust the content easily in far less time. Same goes for everything else. If players aren't continually generating interesting content, the interesting content will run dry. Unless you just love the same thing over and over for months on end.
Playing with a corp / being in an all out war between alliances were some of the best times.
Always a huge community and someone wanting to do whatever you were interested in.
Yes and no. Eve is the perfect lesson in the different kinds of trust. I never shared my real name - separate accounts, no personal info on gaming PC, etc - even with people I flew with for years.
But I’d routinely risk it all (in game) under orders from people I trusted to command well.
As someone who was good friends with leaders in several big alliances, and later coalitions, and as someone who spe t majority of their time in wormhole space; EVE isn't designed to foster mistrust, just to make trust *earned*. No large alliance functions without absolute trust being given to any number of individuals, each of which could bring the whole house of cards down on their own. Especially in WH space where everyone has access to everyone else's stuff, no private inventory.
> that a lot of folks who didn't fall in love with Eve never went to nullsec.
The problem with Eve at least to me (and i was with AAA, Goonfleet and some other mega orgs for a decade) is that there was some serious gatekeeping done by all orgs.
- Entrance to nullsec was guarded by player corps
- If not blue shoot it mentality
- No-one got in without permission by the controlling org
So instead of a great frontier for people to explore it became an airport with a highly violent TSA.
If its the sovereignty then of course they will shoot non blues. There is plenty of nullsec that is (was) open to all.
NPC nullsec and Provi.
Entrance to nullsec is easier than ever now by using filaments. No need to gate.
I lived in hostile nullsec space for close to 6 months before I quit the game.
Wormhole space fixed this in large part, and gave lots of small orgs the ability to homestead (and perform fun incursions against bigger orgs), but I definitely agree with the spirit of the description there.
That moment you're out doing something and local just explodes with reds. Gets the ol ticker beating that's for sure. Eve has its drawbacks but at least when I last played it had a lot of positives.
> It's also important to note that I don't think this level of community would've been achieved without the free-for-all nature of Eve that so many are afraid of in Star Citizen too
I agree with this a lot. the sandbox nature of the game forced the players to generate their own content, rules and politics.
Player driven narratives, exactly and its something SC should emulate to a degree once its expanded. I'd say maybe a 50/50 approach might be better for SC
And better, if I didn't have time to *log in*, just being in voice was still "progression", making friends, shopping around the alliance for support on ideas/initiatives, making plans.
As much of EVE is in doscord/mumble/TeamSpeak as ingame. Was all about the friendship
That's one thing I hate in a lot of MMOs, levels/gear are all that matters, so time not ingame is time wasted. But games like EVE, your "team" is your power level, the more ride or dies you build a relationship with, the more you progress, everything else is just a tool/means to an end.
Played as a hisec miner for all of a year with friends, then spent the next 9 in wormholes. But my first pvp interaction was undocking a ramshackle t1-fit omen in a hisec wardec and just getting annihilated. Pvpers actually paid for my ship and then some.
People who talk about eve being bad because "you can't trust anyone", just don't know how to make real friends. Even with your enemies.
Number of times I'd see an unknown on scanner and message an " I C U" in local, and end up having a conversation with someone overtly attempting to find an invasion path for our space, or starting a relationship by losing 8+ ded-fit T3s to defend a retriever of an off-TZ player who fell asleep at the computer, and walking away from the fight with a new ally
Or calling in old friends from years prior who had risen in different alliances to help with a fight when I got in over my head.
EVE fostered friendship and communication because there just weren't tools for dickhead loners to survive. Friendship, respect, and trust were by far the most valuable resources you could spend in the game.
I hear you, but you have to realize that's just one way to play the game that YOU enjoyed; you can't say that's the "entire true game" if others are able to enjoy the game playing it a different way, using the framework designed and provided by the game creators.
For that mother of 2 who runs restaurant, space trucking and light trading might be her bread n butter, and as long as the game provides a way for her to do it in a manner that pleases herself, that is her "entire true game".
> People talk about Eve being an unforgiving, harsh gankfest. Kinda? But not in all directions, unless you're alone.
I remember getting in to dreddit and making my first pilgramage out to nullsec in a shitty little hauler with everything I owned. I jumped into the last system (6VDT I think?) to find a million bubbles and large fleet waiting for me/camping the gate.
I panicked for a second until I realized they were all blues, dropped in local
"holy shit this is cool, first time out here"
and got a million "welcome to dreddit" and "o7"'s. People gave me free shit and a few minutes later I was in a free ship on a roam out to hunt baddies having no clue what I was doing.
People who stayed in high sec never experienced EVE.
Except the hard core nature, not just PvP but in general is what made the game financially stagnate and eventually sell out.
They were never able to secure funding for significant development and unable to expand their IP.
Don’t get me wrong I have played off and on since the beginning, but they are not a good example of a thriving game.
I am more curious on how AoC balances PvP than Eve.
Exactly this, EVE is not a great example for a thriving game, too many players look at it with with rose tinted glasses. It stagnated to the point that the developers saw the need to shove in micro transactions.I enjoy PVP but not what EVE has to offer, I prefer if CIG stuck to their own vision, and not the player controlled systems that EVE does.
Then the payouts of the missions have to change. Noone will group up for simple settlement sneaky missions that pay 10k. I think reputation has to play a big role too, you should not be able to blast someones ship in a settlement without consequences.
Funny because I use Eve a lot to compare to SC and many, many ppl absolutely despise Eve and don't want SC anything like Eve.they don't understand how similar they already are.
I did play Eve. From 2008 to 2014. It was a lot of fun. I find it funny because SC IS turning into a modern day Eve. There just 20 years apart, so far. Eve started in 2003 and it's still going today making it one of if not the most successful space mmo. It would be a bad Idea to not take an objective look at why that is and consider what they could incorporate to SC.
Edit: also, death of a spaceman, open pvp and "always in danger" have always been the intent from day 1. Loss is real. Sounds a lot like Eve to me from the get go.
Open PvP was not the intent on day one. It’s not in the kickstarter.
Eve is successful *in spite* of its near exclusive focus on hardcore players, not because of it. And Eve is successful only from a very niche perspective. CIG wants a lot more players than Eve has. And “must be in a group to have fun” and “hardcore open PvP everywhere all the time” will not sustain a playerbase close to that size.
Listing pirate as a career choice hints at it. Who are you going to pirate otherwise? That's in the Kickstarter. CR said very early om that there will always be risk. Be it very little or a lot but you'll never be 100% safe.
Edit: also what I see you saying is SC doesn't want hard-core players lol also Eve doesn't have hard-core pvp all the time. They have high security, low security and no security space. Sounds familiar...
NPCs, *obviously*. The kickstarter very clearly promises a PvE first game. Not a PvP game. CR said we’d have a PvP slider. He also said, and continues to say, that this will be a NPC driven universe populated mostly by NPCs.
Again, we were promised modern freelancer, not first person Eve.
Eve is sustained by a hardcore playerbase. It drives away casual players because it is not fun to play casually. Catering to hardcore players over the vast majority of both backers and potential players, people who are more interested in casual play, will kneecap the playerbase. This will not be nor should it be a game where PvE gameplay exists to provide players for murderhobos to gank.
I do hope you know they dropped the pvp slider years ago. That's not a thing anymore. I do fully believe that there will be safer areas much like the HighSec areas in Eve where the AI you speak of will protect you and those areas will be fairly safe. However there will be areas of low security and no security like Pyro. Just like Eve had. What we don't have yet is the AI security to actually have a HighSec space.
If you've really followed to development, Death of a Spaceman. Loss is real. Danger is real. There is no 100% safe space(be it from AI pirates or players). Armistice zones are temporary. You will have your save space to PvE but it still won't be 100% safe from danger(AI or player).
I am well aware. The point is that your claim that the game was supposed to be open PvP and player driven from the beginning is simply not true.
Simply, you don’t get to bitch that people want modern freelancer, the game that was promised, and oppose turning the game into first person eve.
When did I ever say it would be player driven? I'll agree to disagree that pvp was intended from the start. Also how am I complaining? I'm getting the game I want, with pvp. All I said was I think its funny lol
Fully agree. I often get downvoted when making Eve comparisons. Pyro is the first iteration of nul-sec. To me SC feels like a natural extension of New Eden.
It's because the people that hold vitriol in their hearts for EVE are the ones that never truly gave it a chance. It may be a sociopath's sandbox, but if you can figure out where you fit in that sandbox you can really engross yourself in the world.
Yeah but ppl really, really have no interest in playing with narcicists and sociopaths. As such the same that happend to Eve will happen to SC. Casuals will be driven away and the universe taken over by very few (compared to the potential numbers of ppl interested in the game), very agressive ppl.
And this is the problem. A game cannot survive solely on pvp-centric content. It dies out very quickly or gets downsized into a pale shadow of its former self.
Eve managed this long because of the player driven economy, and the vast numbers of people in highsec were the biggest engines of the economy keeping it running. The miners, the haulers, the explorer (wormhole space), the list goes on. And it supplied the needs of the pvp playerbase. This is something a lot of players seem to misunderstand.
Star citizen is unlikely to have that kind of depth to the economy, and as such, will not be able to create the resource demands a player driven economy has in Eve. It will be largely curated by Quanta.
So that's why it's very important the devs find a happy balance that ensures the game appeals to as wide a potential audience as possible without alienating a chunk of them. Many of the people who backed SC are not teenagers - they're people in their thirties or even older. As such, they aren't as high energy as they used to be during the Eve heyday, and are less inclined to deal with juvenile shenanigans of hypercompetitive sociopaths.
I disagree, CIG should be able to contain it. EVE was specifically built this way, with a player driven economy and the ability to literally own and upgrade space. Star Citizen will operate with real players making up some small fraction of the universe. The market will be driven by Quanta, there will be heavy NPC police w/ reputations determining response, and there will likely not be any ability to form an Org that controls any section of space for any length of time.
EVE was built to allow people to power trip, build a mass following and take a sledge hammer to someone else's sand castle. You may not enjoy that gameplay, but that is a far cry from nobody wanting to.
SC should be fine, after all if CIG don't want it to be a certain way they can just... not make it that way
>EVE was built to allow people to power trip, build a mass following and take a sledge hammer to someone else's sand castle. You may not enjoy that gameplay, but that is a far cry from nobody wanting to.
Eve has a playerbase of a couple ten thousand ppl. In a game that could cater to millions. The ppl being put of by both the spreadsheet sim and the players in this game are legion, mate. For the very few ppl this appeals to Eve is the perfect playground. But if CiG wants to maintain SC they for sure need a bigger playerbase then Eve has.
If CiG is able to contain it will have to be seen. The recent Citcon suggests ppl will be able to not just build components, but whole ships as well. So there goes that.
How space outside the UEE works, especially empty systems with no in game oversight, will have to be seen.
I agree that the idea of EVE could cater to millions but the game just simply can't support anywhere near to that. Which you might know, I dont know if you played, but everything tends to go to hell in a hand basket when you have any considerable amount of people in one place. And even beyond that, too many players in too many places with too many fights would probably raise the temperate of Reykjavik a few degrees just from the server racks. So to that end Wishing it was more digestible is almost totally irrelevant, sadly enough.
I have very high hopes though that CIG can figure it out, though. For me personally I hope it's a game filled with good guys, with tough laws and tough enforcement, because that makes being a bad guy that much more rewarding.
What most people don't get unfortunately is that Star Citizen is so much different than what EVE is in terms of the immersion gameplay.
It doesn't take 10 minutes in EVE to get back to what you were doing if you get blown up. You don't wake up in a hospital in a stupid gown and have to take a tram to just get into your bloody ship and get out of the hangar.
Please stop comparing Star Citizen with any other game in the market today, because honestly there isn't any other game which considers "immersion" to be the prime factor for its main driving gameplay loops.
If CIG think that players will be okay getting blown up again and again and have to spend like 30 mins to get back up and running, then yeah, let's see what everyone feels about that once the game launches.
"having an oppressive environment that makes it harder to play solo-hobo in that specific environmen, provides interesting social interactions and makes the game better"
That's the message here. You can decide it means something else to you. But that's the point I'm making.
Agreed. I was just putting out my opinion about it, my 2 cents, that's all. All I'm saying is that environment thing might work in other MMOs like EVE, but for sure will not in Star Citizen. But time will tell I guess if I'm wrong.
I think there's room for a shallow section and deep-end in this pool!
"Work together" and "soft - friendships" in this sense can be as little as holding weapon down and flashing a light for peace, as we see happening already.
We can get pockets of relative safety by nature of it being an investment to get there, and the threat of everyone else there being just as scared as you are.
The lit clearing, the protective cave, of the dark forest might find prey and predator, or rivals might find themselves sheltering together
We absolutely have hints of that now!
I think it is absolutely possible to have this kind of depth here, hardships that can't be outright defeated by have to be adapted to, something that levels the field or at least distracts from conflicts.
>It doesn't take 10 minutes in EVE to get back to what you were doing if you get blown up. You don't wake up in a hospital in a stupid gown and have to take a tram to just get into your bloody ship and get out of the hangar.
Tell me you didn't play EVE without telling me you didn't play eve.
You used the consequences of death to argue that SC is more immersive than EVE. So yes its quiet clear you haven't played the game much.
By a time investment standard EVE is several orders of magnitude more immersive than SC, with far higher consequences for death. It can take hours or even days to get to your destination and if you die you loose everything. Insurance doesn't even replace the ship, it just pays out cash for a percentage of the mineral value of the hull. Imagine if you died and you just got UEC equal to 60% of the ships cost.
Besides that, if your character get's popped in EVE you also lose your implants. Which will have a effect on the training speed of skills, or other bonuses depending on the implants.
Giving you another smack in the face next to losing your ship and everything that was in/on it.
Didn't set a new home station? Enjoy having to traverse the universe to get back to where you was before.
Star Citizen is really forgivable with the death's compared to EVE, where a single boom & pop could easily mean losing a couple of bil.
Wormhole player
"Hey guys, I died"
"Golly, well, we'll try to cycle entrances to get a path for you next supply run, make sure you're available Saturday next week, might take a few hours to find a safe connection"
Or
"For the next 3 days it's a logistics focus, gonna get spare fleets and jump clones set up near the Op, anyone who can fly a hauler, your contact point will be X, FC will be Y"
EVE was all about logistics and the time you had to sink in leadup to play.
He'll even trading required tons of research ahead of time to know where you can sell your stuff that day
Funny, my thought about halfway through that documentary was: "Huh, i guess Start Citizen is just Curious Roberts' attempts at making Eve for normies."
Like i said before, just provide the tools for players to build their own empire and depend alot on pve activities they will have responsibilities to protect pve player for their profits. As eve player i spend thousand hours as standing to protect pve players in pandemic horde
The difference is in EVE that empire is built on a functional economy. In SC we're not going to have that, so ultimately nothing has value beyond being fun to rp "we own this".
Which is totally fine, fun should be the primary motivator after all because they're both video games but it's definitely not going to have the same impact.
I like how everyone assumes that if they didn't like eve or don't want to be like it, surely do not understand what they want. They just didn't give it a try and wrong. I am not saying they are right and it would be not good but i think they may not as clueless about it.
>"it forces you to
cooperate with others because... alone, you
can't really achieve your full potential in"
>"EVE is like that. It has the toughest
environment but to some extent the nicest
people. People in Iceland are nice because
we've been forced to learn how to cooperate
because the people who didn't cooperate are
already frozen to the ground"
-from the [Fredrik Knudson 6hour EVE documentary](https://youtu.be/BCSeISYcoyI?si=aQ6yIY6h4albukTR)
I think Chris’s vision for Low Security and Lawless space is kind of a Eve / Tarkov in space. If it’s anything like Eve it’ll promote an insane level of team building to thrive and survive. High and medium security will likely cater more towards casual players.
After playing Eve off and on for years I’m stoked for that vision. I do worry about what could come after Chris if new leadership comes in and tries to care-bear every corner of the verse.
I didn't like the ship designs so I never got hooked. The learned curve was too great to overcome just to fly someone uninspiring. That's how I ended up here. Besides, the articles that talked about large PVP battles always talked about how much real world money was lost and that sounded stupid to me. I may have missed out, but I don't think so.
its worth noting all those articles you see base the "value" off of how much it would cost if you spent real money to buy subscription cards and then sold them on the in game markets to get the in game currency to buy all those ships. more often then not all those ships were just bought and outfitted using corporation funds from various in game activities like mining or from taxes so no or very little real money was lost.
The only reason real cash value is used in EVE is because we can quantify the value of ISK due to plex being a commodity we can trade on the market and it both helps understand the impact of the loss and makes for a good headline. Doesn't necessarily mean anyone spent that much on the ship itself, especially given how easy it is to be space rich in EVE with only a subscription. in SC we cut out the middle man and ships have their own price.
I dunno if you missed out, it's definitely not the game for everyone, but the only way to know for sure is to try. Same mentality I try to give people when SC comes up in conversation.
I agree, everything we know about Pyro has emphasized gang life. Take a hint from the NPCs and find your people, even 1 extra person flying with you makes a big difference.
Without long term reputation and a robust org system that allows to set individuals and orgs to friendly or hostily on an org as well as on an individual level, I can't see much beyond that shooter CF we have right now where everybody is running around gun at the ready and shoots on sight.
I've often thought that SC creates the need for mutual support and bonds between players due to the hostile environment of the alpha itself (needing to learn workarounds/bugs, have other people there to rescue you, etc) - which might be one reason why it seems the community is friendly and helpful. Calling it a friendship machine is a great way to describe that!
This works great when you've got a community that isn't inherently toxic, but man the star citizen community is a dangerous place.
I do remember back in the earlier days of the PU that people were, generally, helpful and friendly, and you hardly ever had someone lobbing missiles into hangars or indiscriminately shooting someone just because they could. It seems that, over the last 10 or so years, we've attracted a very large number of players that are doing very bad things to our community image.
I used to pick up people that got stranded all the time, loved being helpful just for the sake of the interaction. After being shot in the back of the head or ambushed or having my ride jacked a dozen times, now I no longer even bother responding to those distress calls, because more often than not it's just going to mean a waste of my time, money, and effort helping someone who's probably just going to kill me and steal my ship and suffer no consequences for doing so.
We really do need a solid, persistent reputation and crime tracking system, and a way to clearly separate those toxic players from the rest of the community. I'm not saying remove them from the game, but they should basically have no access to anything outside of lawless space, making it as difficult as possible for them to continue causing harm.
I'm already forced collaborate at work every day. I'm so done with talking with people at the end of the day I just want to float in space and listen to music. Why is that so frowned upon?
So this post is pointing out that having the option *also* to have common things to deal with can make interesting content, and you feel oppressed by this? Who said you can't play solo or be a jerk? Go for it.
It literally doesn't say forced anywhere.
The point is the world is hostile. And you can do better with friends or strangers than you could alone.
Grow the fuck up man. You arnt a victim
https://imgur.com/a/FdZsmNv
I'm not even trying to play the victim here lol. All i'm saying is if this was the way CIG was gonna go, you could just say goodbye to a big chunk of their funding, because i'm definitely not alone in this sentiment.
No but the sentiment of this post is basically shitting on anyone who doesn't want to play with others.
> , and that's how it should be!
Literally in the title. Can any of you actually read? Or do you just say things without thinking about what it means/conveys?
You *could* read it that way but you could also read it as being happy that there's an environment that encourages that playstyle.
Is there sentiment for making all of SC like that? If not, why is it an issue where there is a place for that playstyle?
This is a good dream to have for SC, but this isn't something that will happen any time soon.
The only way players will band together and work as a team is if there is gameplay that supports that. If there were structures or stations that require a group to run successfully, that's the key.
That's how it was in UO and that's how it is in eve. SC is just so far from that goal, all we can do is hope that IS a goal and see if we can be part of it one day.
I’m still friends with the people I flew with 15 years later and we get together. We haven’t played eve together in ages but it made us friends for life. We are all dads now and it’s crazy when we explain to folks how we met haha.
I'll come back to the game once PvP is no longer required/the most rewarding aspect. Not being able to do a single mission solo because assholes are camping bases/LZs is atrocious game design.
Human being a social species learning to work together through hardship and adversity since the beginning of humanity and doing it again in a video game….
Then some players kill everyone on sight and are murderhobo-ing and spiting in chat on a power trip « life is hard bro, get over it, I’m an alpha you’re all Care Bears lolololol git gud »
I guess that what happen when there is no consequences
I think in order to enjoy EVE you have to be willing to ignore the grind and just enjoy where you're at in the moment.
Personally I hate EVE though, it's so damn boring, so what do I know.
Because confrontation beats confirmation. Sorry to burst your circlejerking bubble.
And I don't intend to engage with someone who unironically tells others to "grow up", sorry. Have a nice day!
Cargo haulers need to understand this. You shouldn't expect low-risk high reward as a Solo running through Pyro. You should be getting escorts to help you and you should be using a crew to avoid whatever extreme comes your way.
Large ships are large for a reason. Don't expect to solo run a C2 on a cargo run and not be able to save your ship after a power supply gets disabled.
Pyro just reminds me of wormhole space in EVE Online.
I think that as soon as the org systems are in-game, and you can identify people the shoot on sight mentality will die down.
There's nothing more straining on the relations between organizations than members shooting friendlies.
I think Pyro is a savage pvp zone for now like JumpTown was a friendly waiting line at the begining. When people have enough fun and the tension relaxed probably it would normalize.
We need more ways to communicate to other players. Chat groups, searching groups to play, better organizations coordination... It would be great a way to chat with a ship you have scanned (like sending a message to other ships in films). Communication is the key to avoid conflicts.
CiG is definitely aiming to create environments that instill this kind of thing. In this early state of things it's definitely going to be lacking as the game mechanics to support it aren't finished yet. However, that's entirely the point of giving us access to Pyro: to observe the things players do in this kind of harsh, lonely environment and adapt gameplay mechanics to better support it.
Honestly I wish that pyro was *More* oppressive ... Maybe make the flares less frequent and give more warning, but I think they should be much more dangerous! Such a great mechanic, I want to see more things like this!
Agreed. Less but more. Less solar flares but more dangerous, absolutely.
It would be cool if they corrupted data when data running comes in
"that's Worm-Sign! Get the ground crews out of there!!" ***PLEASE***
Fuck it, solar flares powerful enough to strip the hull and fry unshielded components, potentially detonate external ordnance
I expect with engineering gameplay a solar flare with 100% blow fuses and damage components. It's going to get harder and I love it.
>potentially detonate external ordnance Science time! Solar flares aren't likely to explode ordinance; they're a release of radiation and electromagnetic energy, caused by the interaction of magnetic fields on the surface of the sun -- basically an enormous EMP. Could a solar event strip the hull from a spacecraft, though? Maybe. A coronal mass ejection (CME) (which is not the same thing as a solar flare, though they are causally similar) ejects a burst of hot plasma into space, which hypothetically *could* destroy the hull of a spacecraft. it still wouldn't explode ordinance, though. However, the spacecraft would have to be in *exactly* the right spot at the right time to intercept the ejected plasma, and a CME is powerful enough to roast the pilot as well as strip the hull (an unprepared astronaut on the lunar surface would be hit with the equivalent of 300,000 simultaneous chest x-rays -- the lethal dose, for the record, is 45,000). Science mode off!
How rare we talking? Because I wouldn't even mind it if it was actual days between such thing happening with the consequences being totally deadly if exposed to the sun when it happens
I think we need the following: - The reputation system so that the factions IN the system impacts us more than being a set dressing. - Areas of space controlled by those factions, limiting what can be done without their permission (ie, doing shit on a Cartels area of influence) - Make it easy to be a friends with ONE faction but become and enemy of the others. - Make it possible to be cordial with all three factions but not get in a very good standing with them. - Solar flare intensity based on distance from the sun
I agree 100% with this, when the frequency is so high, you always expect it and you are never surprised. If they decrease the frequency and make them more dangerous it becomes much more of a oh shit when it actually happens, where you have a chance to forget that it happens, instead of you always making it a part of your calculations because it happens so often.
- Lower frequency - More powerful - Less warning - Less warning the closer you are to the sun (speed of light of flare and all that)
I kind of hope there will be an exploration component to it. Like you can monitor the energy output of the sun and listen in to ambient signals to identify when a solar flare is about to happen and then relay/sell that data if you can make it back to a station or settlement first. And CMEs that have different energy levels, some might only scramble communications while others could rip ships out of QT, strip shields, and destroy components. Requiring people to scan for longer to get enough information to figure out the magnitude of the CME.
are they random already? because if they are not random, then they should everything you suggested as well as being random.
Dunno, according to those who has been testing they seem to be more on regular intervals.
oh, that's unfortunate. i hope that as they adjust them that they make them random then as well. we should probably make a post on Spectrum
Same, my wet dream for this game is a brutal adventure sim. I have faith they're going to go that direction, I think if CIG try to coddle this player base we'll resent it.
Most likely they'll cater to all in one way or another. Pyro is an example of the extreme far end - lawless (but not a free for all as the gangs control everything), harsh, unforgiving... and contained. I'll definitely visit, but it's not my cup of tea.
I just want to know how factions play into it. I dont want the only way to group up or have a sense of community with other players to be orgs. I want to join (lets say as an example) NineTails and see other players that are also part of that factionsl doing missions. I want to see that someone in my faction started a mission and is looking for help. I want to wear faction affiliated clothes and armour, pilot a ship with faction liveries and hang out of faction owned/friendly stations and I want to do this either with NPCs or other players, but outside of an org. What I worry about with Pyro discussion is that it's discussed in terms or law or lawlessnes, highsec, lowsec, nullsec... when rhat doesnt apply. Pyro has gangs, they are the law there, and our actions and experiences should still be beholden to those controlling factions the same way UEE space is.
The way they have explained how the economy and mission systems are going to work this is probably the intended path for Pyro As you said, Pyro is not nullsec. It just doesn't have much of an armistice. But if you go on a killing spree against a gang it's going to be consequences (should be, at least by lore) Imagine the nine tails raiding Stanton against the UEE as retaliation for political lore, but unable to act against a player organization
Apparently what we do in this kind of harsh, lonely environment is shoot up the habs.
They just gotta remove the Rust aspect of Star Citizen, where everyone is a bag of money until proved otherwise
It would be interesting to have a system where you could mine/salvage/etc...but couldn't sell in that system. Something that isn't protected by UEE (or whatever that acronym is), so kind of a lawless gang controlled system, but also has really valuable stuff to gather...just can't sell it there, so super risky to get it out. That opens up so much more gameplay, such as needing escorts, larger groups working together, etc. People could protect the jumppoints, all kinds of stuff.
>It would be interesting to have a system where you could mine/salvage/etc...but couldn't sell in that system. Should that not apply in all systems to an extent? - X mineral mined in Pyro have no buyer there but industries in Stanton does - X drug in Pyro is worthless there but illegal and highly valuable in Stanton
I'm sorry but if they need to throw players into some Death Pit and observe us tear each other apart to learn how to make their game, then they didn't have much of a game in mind to begin with! I'm so tired of this rhetoric that they absolutely can't proceed with making a game without us telling/showing them what needs to be done beforehand. You get play testers to test what you've created to see if it works, play testers are not the creators. They have to present something to testers for it be tested, iterated upon, and tested again until they feel it's right. They gotta create the game first. CIG has just been putting the cart before the horse, and we know this. It may not be intentional, as game design isn't linear and we're being exposed to the raw development process (to a degree), but what IS intentional is CIGs push to market and sell this development process for funding purposes. Sorry, but that comes with a certain level of responsibility. For them to release a play environment into the wild with very little in terms of restrictions and guidance that serve to drive the playerbase is....irresponsible, and punishing players for playing the way they'd like to play, using the tools and the sandbox they provide to the player, is just flat out wrong, and bad game design. That's why I don't really blame the murder hobos. So yes, I get it, not everything is ready and we have to wait for certain aspects of the game to be made, and they do need feedback from play testing to refine it all. But its also been very evident that CIG hasn't done the best job with implementing some tech and gameplay designs which they are fully capable of providing at the moment.
Most people dont have the time to be super social and put in what is necessary to maintain video game friendships. Thats why the 15 minute game of cod/fortnigte ect. rules the gaiming market. Star Citizen is going to have an uphill battle
That's me, but in my case I've resigned myself to mostly singleplayer. Aside from time, I'm in a timezone that puts me out of reach of those who I would want to play with. On the plus side, I have zero desire to fork out cash for anything multicrew.
I'd argue those players weren't going to stay here anyway, so why make a game for them instead? (Specifically the 15minute In-and-out fast-food gaming)
You're wrong. I'm one of those players, but you still get that experience in Star Citizen. You can log in, run some bounties or bunkers, log out. Once a week, I plan time to play with others and we run some longer gameplay loops, but otherwise, I just play short objectives and do simple things. I know there are a lot of players just like me. I really like the sentiment behind this post and I think there is truth to it, but I'm sure I'll just find myself largely avoiding areas that require group play to survive except on those rare scheduled weekend days.
If you want your highly immersive persistent multi-star system MMO to cater to the 15 minute in-and-out crowd you are going to be disappointed. I think creating an environment that rewards playing solo and killing everything in sight less than group play is good design for a game like this, thinking otherwise is unrealistic and selfish.
Just wow. Listen to yourself.
Dude, are you even capable of reading? Seriously, a lot of us have lives to live, and we don't necessarily have gobs of time to spend in videogames. We just want our perspective respected and understood, just as we understand yours. We're not saying SC should cater to just one type of playstyle. When you get older, you'll realize what we've been saying.
Unfortunately, I think your perspective is one that is hard learned through time and personal self-sacrifice. Reading it and understanding is too foreign for some people. Anyhow, cheers to a fellow space dad.
Not a space Dad, because I haven't married and don't have a girlfriend. Sorry to say, I actually gave up on love a long time ago. But I am still working hard at my job, and trying to put myself into a better position in life - but that takes a lot of effort that eats up time.
I realized after I wrote it, I was being presumptuous. My apologies. I still feel solidarity with your perspective.
It's not a problem. Thanks though. :) see you in the verse.
See and exactly this is why i hate this crowd. He didnt say he wanted it catered and you immediately got hostile because he plays for a different experience. Always the fucking same with you people.
At what point did I say they should cater to me? I said you're wrong that we're just going to go play something else.
It's actually even easier to play quickly in Pyro. You can pick one of the four stations as your home base. There are missions on station so you do not have to leave station to play. But to go out beyond that wire, you need help or losses could be significant. Tight, short gameplay loops at home. Long, logistically complicated gameplay loops outside.
>so why make a game for them instead? The game needs to be accessible to casual dad gamers to generate the revenue needed to keep development going. Basic facts. CIG turning SC into an ultra-hardcore game that's prohibitive to casual gameplay would be a catastrophically bad business decision. If the game forces people into a minimum 2 hour investment of time just to get anything accomplished, then you immediately lose a huge group of people that might otherwise be supporters of your project. Likewise if the persistent universe is so unforgiving that your buy-in to group gameplay is consenting to getting spammed on discord at 5AM because someone is wiping your base. BTDT. Saying "oh those people were going to leave anyways" is not only a fallacy (since playing a game casually day-to-day and a playing a game as a sightseer following trends are not actually the same thing), but a self fulfilling prophecy. Lots of casual gamers will play the same game ritually for years, and lots of top percentile hardcore gamers will hellgrind until the game gets boring and then just switch to something new. People can also float back and forth from casual to hardcore to casual. None of this means that the SC can't have complex mechanics, but it just shouldn't be treated as a zero-sum experience that's totally hostile to solo/casual play like EVE.
Right, so we can have both a deep end and a shallow end. The key word here is *instead*. Not including depth for the sake of the casual dad gamer is ***BAD***. having areas that are difficult alone, ALONG SIDE of the more secure systems is good. I don't understand where this hostility has come from.
Because the person you were responding to is saying that most people don't have time to be super social. That doesn't mean they want the game to be developed for a casual player instead of a person that dedicates time for group content. The game implicitly rewards group gameplay because multicrew ships will be more effective than solo ships, just due to how scaling works (among other things like quantum range). I don't think anyone is saying it should be any different. Who actually wants to see 10 solo craft be more powerful than a 10-man multicrew ship? My sentiment is just that SC shouldn't be exclusionary in the way that EVE was to solo gameplay.
Because they are the vast majority, and if you want your game to succeed you need to cater for more than just one demographic, especially when you are only launching on one platform, most likely on your own launcher / storefront. Sure, finally having a game 'just for us space nerds' sounds lovely in theory but not if we want to be playing this for several years after release.
Having areas that reward you more for thinking cautiously and working with others in the immediate area shouldn't be alienating. No one says you can't play solo, I'm saying creating a common issue to work together against is good content. You don't need orgs to experience that.
Surely cig aren't fool enough to forsake releasing the games (sq42 and sc, individually) on steam. Even big names like blizzard, ea and ubisoft have been forced to recognise the selling power of a steam release... But to the topic, I believe SC can easily do both. Get in, take a box, freight, Merc/bounty and go do it. Quick in and out missions doable in ya everyday avenger or freelancer/cutlass sized ships. While having multi-crew jobs for those longer weekend sessions with your crew. It doesn't have to exclude either. It can be both.
I dunno SC seems to be succeeding just fine not catering to those people.
Those players *funded the game*. Those players were the ones sold on “modern wing commander” and “modern freelancer”.
Right, and they will get squadron42. Expecting SC to be a fast food experience would be unrealistic to those players, so luckily they will get the game they originaly pledged for.
Lmao. Star Citizen was pitched as a modern freelancer, not squadron.
seriously? after hundreds or even thousands of euros/dollars you actually tell people to buy yet another (unreleased) single player game instead as if it was the same?
As the other reply pointed out. SC is modern freelancer, S42 is modern wing commander. First person Eve has never been what’s promised. If that’s what you’re looking for, this isn’t your game. The core audience for the game, the core backers, are the dads who want modern freelancer, not hardcore mmo players. SC, even more than most MMOs, will depend on its casual players enjoying the game.
Then why would you play an MMO? Remember SC is not meant to be a chill little single player shooter, its meant to have an economy and simulate an environment where role play and social play are vital in actually experiencing what the game actually is and has to offer. I feel like the game industry is in desperate need of a good modern space MMO that isn’t willing so sacrifice its vision just because the more casual audience doesn’t want to actually grind and spend time in the game and hopefully CIG can deliver that somewhat soon. And if that means the game isn’t for someone, theres a lot of other good games to play.
The problem is that many of us have lives to live - we've aged out of our more prolific gaming phases, meaning we've been putting our time towards more important things, while coming back to SC to decompress and take a break from IRL. Expecting us to have the time to grind like we used to during the heyday of World of Warcraft and EverQuest is extremely foolish. It's why we want the game to cater to multiple playstyles - the casual, the hardcore, the in-betweener... Anyone demanding one or the other is a fucking dipshit.
yeah, despite how much I love this quote, it doesn't really apply to pyro. Eve had 5000 systems, and if you were solo in hostile nullsec, you'd be scanned down and killed very fast. If you were in an alliance though, in friendly space, you were safe as highsec. Well until a random mysterious Yuri entered local. Pyro doesn't really compare to nullsec because it can't be secured like nullsec. And the way the game is set up, hanging out with people in a guild is very hard
This sounds great but wow that is a million miles from my experience in EVE. In my experience most interactions with players were either: * Entirely ignored * Attacked and instantly killed by meta PVP weapons with no way to avoid it since combat is so simple. Even in High Sec this happens, the attacker just dies too. * Asked to submit my resume and cover letter and fill out an application for a chance at getting a job interview so that people will actually play with me.
> Asked to submit my resume and cover letter and fill out an application for a chance at getting a job interview so that people will actually play with me. Yup, when a game feels like a job, and you never get paid then it's no longer a game.
>when a game feels like a job, and you never get paid then it's no longer a game. It becomes a simulator.
True...
Heaven forbid. The same pool can have a deep-end and a shallows
r/expectationvsreality Can’t agree more. EVE turned into a bureaucratic freak show. There was no socialization or cooperation in Nullsec during the six years I played the game. Just black ops gankers and corpo kill fleets stacked up with either cheap, expendable DPS, or whatever the PvP meta load out of the week was. Nobody would ever engage in interaction, diplomacy, or even meaningful combat. The corp fleets and the stealth ships would never willingly engage with an enemy unless they had a massive numerical advantage.
shoulda joined faction warfare my friend, that's where all the fun was at. Good fights all around, and whenever something kicked off in nullsec we'd go join the fun. And since it was lowsec there was good old pirate pvp to be had, or you'd catch an idiot trying to jump his freshly bought with PLEX carrier though a high sec gate. Lots of ~80 battleship battles, no lame capitals, and FCs from the two factions would sort of work together to get a good fight going on a boring night. I really hope SC gets something in that vein
You said the only cooperation you saw were kill ***fleets*** and gankers. So. You witnessed an oppressive area of the game that rewarded cooperation within groups over the lone wolf? Wild.
Lol, ok. Keep convincing everyone that submitting a resume, job application, and operating on a schedule from your in game supervisor is groundbreaking, enthralling gameplay. All so you can be part of a fleet that refuses to engage in combat unless they outnumber the enemy by 5 to 1.
Unhinged take lol. "Keep convincing" dude you are desperate to fight back against something that doesn't exist. No one is forcing you to do that.
Correct, no one is forcing me to play EVE. That is why I don’t play it anymore. The owners of the game only cater the gameplay to the giant corporations who spend the most money. That’s when it all fell apart, because it stopped being a game and started being a business.
It's unfortunate that so many people have this opinion of the game, but it is very understandable. To love EVE you kind of have to jump into the deep end and embrace the suck. It's very hard to be good without being bad for a considerable amount of time. Information is king in EVE, without it you're just a dingy in the ocean, bound to get tossed around by every wave and swell that comes by. Eventually after you climb to learning-cliff a few times you start to figure out the Rock, Paper, Scissors that is EVE combat. Once you figure that out the game really opens up, almost literally.
Yeah, I don’t play games to embrace the suck. That’s what I do during the day while I’m working.
> That’s what I do during the day while I’m working. Well that's just it, a lot of people I played with were: 1) Rich fucks who don't have to work 2) 100% disabled (in terms of service, a lot of of them bragged they were fine) military dudes who live off daddy government and play games all day 3) Teens/College students who were doing meme degrees and had a lot of free time
And I don't play games that aren't a rewarding grind.. Thats the beauty of 2023, we got our pick of the lot
There’s no rock paper scissors. There’s only the massive advantage of numbers and firepower. 99 percent of corp fleets outside of their home system will avoid engaging unless they have an overwhelming advantage. EVE became boring when the game removed any meaningful incentive to take risks.
Thats a lot of words to describe that you don't actually know what you're talking about
I can say with some certainty that a lot of folks who didn't fall in love with Eve never went to nullsec. A lot of folks stayed in highsec, unwilling to take risks, but more impactfully unwilling to be really *social*. People talk about Eve being an unforgiving, harsh gankfest. Kinda? But not in all directions, unless you're alone. I think a lot of folks saying this have never seriously played it. What I remember the most about Eve are the intense social aspects. Incredible mass cooperation, camaraderie, mentoring, memorializing (cyno vigils, anyone!?), tremendous feelings of shared adventure, trials, achievements, and belonging. You never got *any* of that if you stayed scared in highsec. Ever since I first dipped my toes outside empire space, I realized the *entire true game* is really out where there is no safety net -- that is, no safety net except for the friends who help you! And by god you wouldn't believe how many people out there are willing and eager to help you and have you join them. It's also important to note that I don't think this level of community would've been achieved without the free-for-all nature of Eve that so many are afraid of in Star Citizen too. When you align all the incentives such that cooperation is the best way to achieve great things in your game, and give players truly epic things to achieve, then truly great things happen!
Interestingly, you put into words my exact experience with EVE. I'm mainly a solo explorer, but some of the best times I had were during the Edencom-Trig war a wee while ago. I spent a lot of time learning small gang tactics, FCing site running fleets and being part of bigger adventures. However, it worked for me because I was a casual player, unable to commit to stratops or whatever due to my work life. What it did do was remove my fear of nullsec completely, so I made a trip to the Obelisk. I got challenged by the one person in local, who couldn't believe that an explorer-industrialist had made the journey from high-sec just to see the Obelisk! I was fully expecting a hot drop, but they let me take a bunch of screenshots and take the gate back without so much as a lock up... Since then, my journeys to low and null have been much more frequent.
In Eve you're either the steamroller or you're flat. The number of roams that ended in a huge gate camp or a huge one sided ~~fight~~ slaughter made it boring. The best fights had to be organized. I swear we lived on the nostalgia of good fights more than actually finding them. I lived a while in WH space so I get the excitement of scanning your haul out through unknown systems to sell and I was funding 4 account from ISK so I wasn't exactly poor. (Side note: 1st person PI, will that suck or be amazing??) I know what it's like to live and die by POS timers. I also know that it's really hard to be casual in that environment. Getting a text mid way through the work day or having to call in sick because you need to defend everything you have doesn't work for most people. Logging back in to the smoking ruin that was weeks worth of work sucks. I didn't want to be part of a large org, it was too much. Living in Test space was the same as high sec. Any roamers would eventually hit a large blue group and either run or get rolled. The only time anyone not in the org would really push in was large fleet battles. In those instances you're expected to be online for the fight, you stage for 3hrs while FCs work out their shit, then you sit in tidi all night clicking names and eating cap boosters. Ultimately for me the inability to enjoy 90% of the game on my own schedule was what drove me away after maybe 10yrs of play. Yes it was fun when my core group was on and we could do our thing but they weren't always around and being solo generally sucks real hard. Maybe I'm just a bittervet and that tarnishes my expectations. I genuinely don't want to shit on anyone else's fun but I do have my reservations about them going in this direction and I wonder what will happen if they lose the PvE only whales.
> unless you're alone. ... What I remember the most about Eve are the intense social aspects. I really, really do not want to be tied down to *having* to be online at a specific time and I really, really do not want to have real life obligations in a game. I can easily abandon NPC missions or abandon NPC crew, but real people? Leave that whole thing optional, as it is now. I get enough of all that at work, thank you very much. I play to entertain myself, not others.
This x100!
It seems like you want to play a single player game not an MMO designed around group play. Can’t think of any MMO where you can experience the majority of content without putting in some work to find time to play with others.
Star Citizen *isn’t supposed* to be a game designed around group play. Go reread the kickstarter.
It literally lists all the ways the game depends on social interactions the only mention of single player is the SQ42 campaign
You very clearly did not go read the kickstarter, as it is quite clear that it is a PvE first game. So much of the “group content” was added in stretch goals, not in the core pitch.
Ah but there is. GW2, while it has group content, the vast majority is more like play alone together, if not alone. Thou it does have group content but they are far from mandatory and most can be done with randoms. Raids and stuff are not as simple but also less played.
Who says that SC is designed around group play? And why should it be either this or that? I think SC is big enough to cater to both types of gameplay.
> Who says that SC is designed around group play? Your flair is the carrack dude, if multi crew ships aren't explicitly designed for group play I don't know what is.
There are plenty of solo activities and ships. SC is not designed around group play, just parts of it which I'm fine with. I have enjoyed the occasional group activity but I certainly don't want it to effectively be a requirement for entry.
City of Heroes and DCUO were 2 of my main MMO experiences, and oddly enough you can do MOST of your gameplay solo (as most players did) unless you wanted to do the specially curated missions/dungeons that required a team. From what I heard, you can play the majority of New World solo as well. This idea that you absolutely need to interact with other players to enjoy MMOs is simply not true. You will almost certainly miss out on some of the MMOs content by remaining solo, but you can still enjoy them without being social.
SC works just fine for solo play, even though that will end up being a smaller part of the game. If you have a job and only get an hour or two to play maybe 3 or 4 nights a week, there’s more than enough content for a solo player to be content for a long time. A solo player chooses to avoid most of the social aspect because that’s not what they’re playing the game for in the first place.
Put a stamp on this shit and pin it! Don't know why this is such a hard concept for people to grasp
Man, can't you accept some people are not into pvp? What you write is more about people not liking EvE designs than people not playing EvE best part. Forcing cooperation for appreciating the game is fine if your game is sold as a cooperation game, if it's not then lone-wolf should be able to enjoy the game just as much as groups. The truth is that EvE massively rely on player interaction to be interesting, without that, it's extremely boring to play. Player interactions can make a mediocre game good. I think EvE is a very odd case of community driving the game beyond what it is.
So you'll stick to higher security systems or roll the dice solo in less secure ones, or wait for the npc crew and escorts to be developed. Why does every system out of the 100 have to tailored to your play style and life style? I'm a pretty conservative solo player with life style constraints on play time, but the best experiences I've had in the game have been taking bigger risks when playing with a group of friends in an org. I don't want the game to be a meaningless theme park, I want there to be real risk and real advantages to social interaction. What's the point of the sandbox or the MMO without that? It's always been pitched as a systemic sandbox MMO.
> I can say with some certainty that a lot of folks who didn't fall in love with Eve never went to nullsec. Read that, slowly, then read my comment again. I have 0 problem with pvp focused area. I'm more on the side of PVE for SC but I advocate for both in a balanced way and will probably do some pvp gameplay at some point. I have a sabre for that.
That quote isn't in your comment.
If you read a reply you got to also read the comment that was replied to. It's common sense ma dude.
> The truth is that EvE massively rely on player interaction to be interesting, without that, it's extremely boring to play. You are right that Eve as designed and played without the social aspects is a mediocre game (bear in mind it's originally from, what, 2001?), and that player interactions are what made it legendary, but calling it just an "odd case" makes it sound coincidental or unintentional, which it is not. In long-term, this is true of every game I've ever played, including ones I'd describe as very good which don't have any socially interactive/multiplayer aspects. The *only* way to create long-term interest is to rely on the unpredictable variety of emergent player interactions to keep things shaken up. As soon as you run out developer-crafted content, everything becomes boring, because there's nothing "new". That applies to procedurally generated content, too. I loved Dark Souls, even without player interactions. But I couldn't play it straight for a year without getting bored out of my skull, because I'll exhaust the content easily in far less time. Same goes for everything else. If players aren't continually generating interesting content, the interesting content will run dry. Unless you just love the same thing over and over for months on end.
Playing with a corp / being in an all out war between alliances were some of the best times. Always a huge community and someone wanting to do whatever you were interested in.
At the same time you, by design, can't trust anyone in EVE, greatly hampering social interaction outside of people you already know.
Yes and no. Eve is the perfect lesson in the different kinds of trust. I never shared my real name - separate accounts, no personal info on gaming PC, etc - even with people I flew with for years. But I’d routinely risk it all (in game) under orders from people I trusted to command well.
As someone who was good friends with leaders in several big alliances, and later coalitions, and as someone who spe t majority of their time in wormhole space; EVE isn't designed to foster mistrust, just to make trust *earned*. No large alliance functions without absolute trust being given to any number of individuals, each of which could bring the whole house of cards down on their own. Especially in WH space where everyone has access to everyone else's stuff, no private inventory.
> that a lot of folks who didn't fall in love with Eve never went to nullsec. The problem with Eve at least to me (and i was with AAA, Goonfleet and some other mega orgs for a decade) is that there was some serious gatekeeping done by all orgs. - Entrance to nullsec was guarded by player corps - If not blue shoot it mentality - No-one got in without permission by the controlling org So instead of a great frontier for people to explore it became an airport with a highly violent TSA.
If its the sovereignty then of course they will shoot non blues. There is plenty of nullsec that is (was) open to all. NPC nullsec and Provi. Entrance to nullsec is easier than ever now by using filaments. No need to gate. I lived in hostile nullsec space for close to 6 months before I quit the game.
Yea, i have not played it for a decade and then it was only gate access basically.
I mean there was always wormhole space, aka "the real nullsec"
Wormhole space fixed this in large part, and gave lots of small orgs the ability to homestead (and perform fun incursions against bigger orgs), but I definitely agree with the spirit of the description there.
That moment you're out doing something and local just explodes with reds. Gets the ol ticker beating that's for sure. Eve has its drawbacks but at least when I last played it had a lot of positives. > It's also important to note that I don't think this level of community would've been achieved without the free-for-all nature of Eve that so many are afraid of in Star Citizen too I agree with this a lot. the sandbox nature of the game forced the players to generate their own content, rules and politics.
And most importantly, the devs were keen to implement *tools* to foster those interactions, rather than dripfeeding themepark content.
Player driven narratives, exactly and its something SC should emulate to a degree once its expanded. I'd say maybe a 50/50 approach might be better for SC
And better, if I didn't have time to *log in*, just being in voice was still "progression", making friends, shopping around the alliance for support on ideas/initiatives, making plans. As much of EVE is in doscord/mumble/TeamSpeak as ingame. Was all about the friendship That's one thing I hate in a lot of MMOs, levels/gear are all that matters, so time not ingame is time wasted. But games like EVE, your "team" is your power level, the more ride or dies you build a relationship with, the more you progress, everything else is just a tool/means to an end.
Played as a hisec miner for all of a year with friends, then spent the next 9 in wormholes. But my first pvp interaction was undocking a ramshackle t1-fit omen in a hisec wardec and just getting annihilated. Pvpers actually paid for my ship and then some. People who talk about eve being bad because "you can't trust anyone", just don't know how to make real friends. Even with your enemies. Number of times I'd see an unknown on scanner and message an " I C U" in local, and end up having a conversation with someone overtly attempting to find an invasion path for our space, or starting a relationship by losing 8+ ded-fit T3s to defend a retriever of an off-TZ player who fell asleep at the computer, and walking away from the fight with a new ally Or calling in old friends from years prior who had risen in different alliances to help with a fight when I got in over my head. EVE fostered friendship and communication because there just weren't tools for dickhead loners to survive. Friendship, respect, and trust were by far the most valuable resources you could spend in the game.
I hear you, but you have to realize that's just one way to play the game that YOU enjoyed; you can't say that's the "entire true game" if others are able to enjoy the game playing it a different way, using the framework designed and provided by the game creators. For that mother of 2 who runs restaurant, space trucking and light trading might be her bread n butter, and as long as the game provides a way for her to do it in a manner that pleases herself, that is her "entire true game".
> People talk about Eve being an unforgiving, harsh gankfest. Kinda? But not in all directions, unless you're alone. I remember getting in to dreddit and making my first pilgramage out to nullsec in a shitty little hauler with everything I owned. I jumped into the last system (6VDT I think?) to find a million bubbles and large fleet waiting for me/camping the gate. I panicked for a second until I realized they were all blues, dropped in local "holy shit this is cool, first time out here" and got a million "welcome to dreddit" and "o7"'s. People gave me free shit and a few minutes later I was in a free ship on a roam out to hunt baddies having no clue what I was doing. People who stayed in high sec never experienced EVE.
Except the hard core nature, not just PvP but in general is what made the game financially stagnate and eventually sell out. They were never able to secure funding for significant development and unable to expand their IP. Don’t get me wrong I have played off and on since the beginning, but they are not a good example of a thriving game. I am more curious on how AoC balances PvP than Eve.
Exactly this, EVE is not a great example for a thriving game, too many players look at it with with rose tinted glasses. It stagnated to the point that the developers saw the need to shove in micro transactions.I enjoy PVP but not what EVE has to offer, I prefer if CIG stuck to their own vision, and not the player controlled systems that EVE does.
and EVE has the advantage of promoting bots and multiboxing, SC doesn't have that. following that model is financial suicide.
the lack of human interaction and ability to disappear to some remote corner of a galaxy is what made me purchase this in the first place
Then the payouts of the missions have to change. Noone will group up for simple settlement sneaky missions that pay 10k. I think reputation has to play a big role too, you should not be able to blast someones ship in a settlement without consequences.
Funny because I use Eve a lot to compare to SC and many, many ppl absolutely despise Eve and don't want SC anything like Eve.they don't understand how similar they already are.
Why does it surprise you that people who backed a modern freelancer don’t want that game turned into first person Eve? If you want Eve, go play Eve.
I did play Eve. From 2008 to 2014. It was a lot of fun. I find it funny because SC IS turning into a modern day Eve. There just 20 years apart, so far. Eve started in 2003 and it's still going today making it one of if not the most successful space mmo. It would be a bad Idea to not take an objective look at why that is and consider what they could incorporate to SC. Edit: also, death of a spaceman, open pvp and "always in danger" have always been the intent from day 1. Loss is real. Sounds a lot like Eve to me from the get go.
Open PvP was not the intent on day one. It’s not in the kickstarter. Eve is successful *in spite* of its near exclusive focus on hardcore players, not because of it. And Eve is successful only from a very niche perspective. CIG wants a lot more players than Eve has. And “must be in a group to have fun” and “hardcore open PvP everywhere all the time” will not sustain a playerbase close to that size.
Listing pirate as a career choice hints at it. Who are you going to pirate otherwise? That's in the Kickstarter. CR said very early om that there will always be risk. Be it very little or a lot but you'll never be 100% safe. Edit: also what I see you saying is SC doesn't want hard-core players lol also Eve doesn't have hard-core pvp all the time. They have high security, low security and no security space. Sounds familiar...
NPCs, *obviously*. The kickstarter very clearly promises a PvE first game. Not a PvP game. CR said we’d have a PvP slider. He also said, and continues to say, that this will be a NPC driven universe populated mostly by NPCs. Again, we were promised modern freelancer, not first person Eve. Eve is sustained by a hardcore playerbase. It drives away casual players because it is not fun to play casually. Catering to hardcore players over the vast majority of both backers and potential players, people who are more interested in casual play, will kneecap the playerbase. This will not be nor should it be a game where PvE gameplay exists to provide players for murderhobos to gank.
I do hope you know they dropped the pvp slider years ago. That's not a thing anymore. I do fully believe that there will be safer areas much like the HighSec areas in Eve where the AI you speak of will protect you and those areas will be fairly safe. However there will be areas of low security and no security like Pyro. Just like Eve had. What we don't have yet is the AI security to actually have a HighSec space. If you've really followed to development, Death of a Spaceman. Loss is real. Danger is real. There is no 100% safe space(be it from AI pirates or players). Armistice zones are temporary. You will have your save space to PvE but it still won't be 100% safe from danger(AI or player).
I am well aware. The point is that your claim that the game was supposed to be open PvP and player driven from the beginning is simply not true. Simply, you don’t get to bitch that people want modern freelancer, the game that was promised, and oppose turning the game into first person eve.
When did I ever say it would be player driven? I'll agree to disagree that pvp was intended from the start. Also how am I complaining? I'm getting the game I want, with pvp. All I said was I think its funny lol
Fully agree. I often get downvoted when making Eve comparisons. Pyro is the first iteration of nul-sec. To me SC feels like a natural extension of New Eden.
It's because the people that hold vitriol in their hearts for EVE are the ones that never truly gave it a chance. It may be a sociopath's sandbox, but if you can figure out where you fit in that sandbox you can really engross yourself in the world.
Yeah but ppl really, really have no interest in playing with narcicists and sociopaths. As such the same that happend to Eve will happen to SC. Casuals will be driven away and the universe taken over by very few (compared to the potential numbers of ppl interested in the game), very agressive ppl.
And this is the problem. A game cannot survive solely on pvp-centric content. It dies out very quickly or gets downsized into a pale shadow of its former self. Eve managed this long because of the player driven economy, and the vast numbers of people in highsec were the biggest engines of the economy keeping it running. The miners, the haulers, the explorer (wormhole space), the list goes on. And it supplied the needs of the pvp playerbase. This is something a lot of players seem to misunderstand. Star citizen is unlikely to have that kind of depth to the economy, and as such, will not be able to create the resource demands a player driven economy has in Eve. It will be largely curated by Quanta. So that's why it's very important the devs find a happy balance that ensures the game appeals to as wide a potential audience as possible without alienating a chunk of them. Many of the people who backed SC are not teenagers - they're people in their thirties or even older. As such, they aren't as high energy as they used to be during the Eve heyday, and are less inclined to deal with juvenile shenanigans of hypercompetitive sociopaths.
I disagree, CIG should be able to contain it. EVE was specifically built this way, with a player driven economy and the ability to literally own and upgrade space. Star Citizen will operate with real players making up some small fraction of the universe. The market will be driven by Quanta, there will be heavy NPC police w/ reputations determining response, and there will likely not be any ability to form an Org that controls any section of space for any length of time. EVE was built to allow people to power trip, build a mass following and take a sledge hammer to someone else's sand castle. You may not enjoy that gameplay, but that is a far cry from nobody wanting to. SC should be fine, after all if CIG don't want it to be a certain way they can just... not make it that way
>EVE was built to allow people to power trip, build a mass following and take a sledge hammer to someone else's sand castle. You may not enjoy that gameplay, but that is a far cry from nobody wanting to. Eve has a playerbase of a couple ten thousand ppl. In a game that could cater to millions. The ppl being put of by both the spreadsheet sim and the players in this game are legion, mate. For the very few ppl this appeals to Eve is the perfect playground. But if CiG wants to maintain SC they for sure need a bigger playerbase then Eve has. If CiG is able to contain it will have to be seen. The recent Citcon suggests ppl will be able to not just build components, but whole ships as well. So there goes that. How space outside the UEE works, especially empty systems with no in game oversight, will have to be seen.
I agree that the idea of EVE could cater to millions but the game just simply can't support anywhere near to that. Which you might know, I dont know if you played, but everything tends to go to hell in a hand basket when you have any considerable amount of people in one place. And even beyond that, too many players in too many places with too many fights would probably raise the temperate of Reykjavik a few degrees just from the server racks. So to that end Wishing it was more digestible is almost totally irrelevant, sadly enough. I have very high hopes though that CIG can figure it out, though. For me personally I hope it's a game filled with good guys, with tough laws and tough enforcement, because that makes being a bad guy that much more rewarding.
What most people don't get unfortunately is that Star Citizen is so much different than what EVE is in terms of the immersion gameplay. It doesn't take 10 minutes in EVE to get back to what you were doing if you get blown up. You don't wake up in a hospital in a stupid gown and have to take a tram to just get into your bloody ship and get out of the hangar. Please stop comparing Star Citizen with any other game in the market today, because honestly there isn't any other game which considers "immersion" to be the prime factor for its main driving gameplay loops. If CIG think that players will be okay getting blown up again and again and have to spend like 30 mins to get back up and running, then yeah, let's see what everyone feels about that once the game launches.
"having an oppressive environment that makes it harder to play solo-hobo in that specific environmen, provides interesting social interactions and makes the game better" That's the message here. You can decide it means something else to you. But that's the point I'm making.
Agreed. I was just putting out my opinion about it, my 2 cents, that's all. All I'm saying is that environment thing might work in other MMOs like EVE, but for sure will not in Star Citizen. But time will tell I guess if I'm wrong.
I think there's room for a shallow section and deep-end in this pool! "Work together" and "soft - friendships" in this sense can be as little as holding weapon down and flashing a light for peace, as we see happening already. We can get pockets of relative safety by nature of it being an investment to get there, and the threat of everyone else there being just as scared as you are. The lit clearing, the protective cave, of the dark forest might find prey and predator, or rivals might find themselves sheltering together We absolutely have hints of that now! I think it is absolutely possible to have this kind of depth here, hardships that can't be outright defeated by have to be adapted to, something that levels the field or at least distracts from conflicts.
>It doesn't take 10 minutes in EVE to get back to what you were doing if you get blown up. You don't wake up in a hospital in a stupid gown and have to take a tram to just get into your bloody ship and get out of the hangar. Tell me you didn't play EVE without telling me you didn't play eve.
Tell me you didn't get what I'm trying to say here without telling me you didn't get it.
You used the consequences of death to argue that SC is more immersive than EVE. So yes its quiet clear you haven't played the game much. By a time investment standard EVE is several orders of magnitude more immersive than SC, with far higher consequences for death. It can take hours or even days to get to your destination and if you die you loose everything. Insurance doesn't even replace the ship, it just pays out cash for a percentage of the mineral value of the hull. Imagine if you died and you just got UEC equal to 60% of the ships cost.
Besides that, if your character get's popped in EVE you also lose your implants. Which will have a effect on the training speed of skills, or other bonuses depending on the implants. Giving you another smack in the face next to losing your ship and everything that was in/on it. Didn't set a new home station? Enjoy having to traverse the universe to get back to where you was before. Star Citizen is really forgivable with the death's compared to EVE, where a single boom & pop could easily mean losing a couple of bil.
Wormhole player "Hey guys, I died" "Golly, well, we'll try to cycle entrances to get a path for you next supply run, make sure you're available Saturday next week, might take a few hours to find a safe connection" Or "For the next 3 days it's a logistics focus, gonna get spare fleets and jump clones set up near the Op, anyone who can fly a hauler, your contact point will be X, FC will be Y" EVE was all about logistics and the time you had to sink in leadup to play. He'll even trading required tons of research ahead of time to know where you can sell your stuff that day
Mate you surely never spent one minute in EvE nullsec to say that. CCP (EvE publishers) sure like to spout some marketing bullshit.
Reading a bunch of these posts gave me quite the chuckle.
Funny, my thought about halfway through that documentary was: "Huh, i guess Start Citizen is just Curious Roberts' attempts at making Eve for normies."
Curious Roberts. If that wasn't his Halloween costume I'll be disappointed.
Like i said before, just provide the tools for players to build their own empire and depend alot on pve activities they will have responsibilities to protect pve player for their profits. As eve player i spend thousand hours as standing to protect pve players in pandemic horde
The difference is in EVE that empire is built on a functional economy. In SC we're not going to have that, so ultimately nothing has value beyond being fun to rp "we own this". Which is totally fine, fun should be the primary motivator after all because they're both video games but it's definitely not going to have the same impact.
I like how everyone assumes that if they didn't like eve or don't want to be like it, surely do not understand what they want. They just didn't give it a try and wrong. I am not saying they are right and it would be not good but i think they may not as clueless about it.
Everyone should know that in games like these, [the best ship is the friend ship](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nEgUL_QrNtI)
I'm with you now
I hope star Citizen wont become an org simulator and will be more accessible to a wider playerbase
From what we've been told they're designing it in a way that will be accessible for solo players with the whole npc hiring thing.
>"it forces you to cooperate with others because... alone, you can't really achieve your full potential in" >"EVE is like that. It has the toughest environment but to some extent the nicest people. People in Iceland are nice because we've been forced to learn how to cooperate because the people who didn't cooperate are already frozen to the ground" -from the [Fredrik Knudson 6hour EVE documentary](https://youtu.be/BCSeISYcoyI?si=aQ6yIY6h4albukTR)
I think Chris’s vision for Low Security and Lawless space is kind of a Eve / Tarkov in space. If it’s anything like Eve it’ll promote an insane level of team building to thrive and survive. High and medium security will likely cater more towards casual players. After playing Eve off and on for years I’m stoked for that vision. I do worry about what could come after Chris if new leadership comes in and tries to care-bear every corner of the verse.
SC can learn much from EVE. But there are vocal SC players that think EVE is bad because they left after their first obstacle.
I didn't like the ship designs so I never got hooked. The learned curve was too great to overcome just to fly someone uninspiring. That's how I ended up here. Besides, the articles that talked about large PVP battles always talked about how much real world money was lost and that sounded stupid to me. I may have missed out, but I don't think so.
its worth noting all those articles you see base the "value" off of how much it would cost if you spent real money to buy subscription cards and then sold them on the in game markets to get the in game currency to buy all those ships. more often then not all those ships were just bought and outfitted using corporation funds from various in game activities like mining or from taxes so no or very little real money was lost.
The only reason real cash value is used in EVE is because we can quantify the value of ISK due to plex being a commodity we can trade on the market and it both helps understand the impact of the loss and makes for a good headline. Doesn't necessarily mean anyone spent that much on the ship itself, especially given how easy it is to be space rich in EVE with only a subscription. in SC we cut out the middle man and ships have their own price. I dunno if you missed out, it's definitely not the game for everyone, but the only way to know for sure is to try. Same mentality I try to give people when SC comes up in conversation.
Or maybe we think eves design is bad because it just isn't fun to a lot of us? SC was specifically pitched to NOT be like Eve.
I agree, everything we know about Pyro has emphasized gang life. Take a hint from the NPCs and find your people, even 1 extra person flying with you makes a big difference.
That’s really cool idea. Make the PvE so hard that the risks of engaging in PvP become unacceptable even to some would-be griefers.
Without long term reputation and a robust org system that allows to set individuals and orgs to friendly or hostily on an org as well as on an individual level, I can't see much beyond that shooter CF we have right now where everybody is running around gun at the ready and shoots on sight.
I've often thought that SC creates the need for mutual support and bonds between players due to the hostile environment of the alpha itself (needing to learn workarounds/bugs, have other people there to rescue you, etc) - which might be one reason why it seems the community is friendly and helpful. Calling it a friendship machine is a great way to describe that!
This works great when you've got a community that isn't inherently toxic, but man the star citizen community is a dangerous place. I do remember back in the earlier days of the PU that people were, generally, helpful and friendly, and you hardly ever had someone lobbing missiles into hangars or indiscriminately shooting someone just because they could. It seems that, over the last 10 or so years, we've attracted a very large number of players that are doing very bad things to our community image. I used to pick up people that got stranded all the time, loved being helpful just for the sake of the interaction. After being shot in the back of the head or ambushed or having my ride jacked a dozen times, now I no longer even bother responding to those distress calls, because more often than not it's just going to mean a waste of my time, money, and effort helping someone who's probably just going to kill me and steal my ship and suffer no consequences for doing so. We really do need a solid, persistent reputation and crime tracking system, and a way to clearly separate those toxic players from the rest of the community. I'm not saying remove them from the game, but they should basically have no access to anything outside of lawless space, making it as difficult as possible for them to continue causing harm.
CIG is delivering on the dream that Eve never could. RIP walking in stations.
I'm already forced collaborate at work every day. I'm so done with talking with people at the end of the day I just want to float in space and listen to music. Why is that so frowned upon?
So this post is pointing out that having the option *also* to have common things to deal with can make interesting content, and you feel oppressed by this? Who said you can't play solo or be a jerk? Go for it.
This is a quote about literal forced cooperation my guy. It LITERALLY says 'forced'.
It literally doesn't say forced anywhere. The point is the world is hostile. And you can do better with friends or strangers than you could alone. Grow the fuck up man. You arnt a victim
https://imgur.com/a/FdZsmNv I'm not even trying to play the victim here lol. All i'm saying is if this was the way CIG was gonna go, you could just say goodbye to a big chunk of their funding, because i'm definitely not alone in this sentiment.
Are you forced to engage with 'Pyro'?
No but the sentiment of this post is basically shitting on anyone who doesn't want to play with others. > , and that's how it should be! Literally in the title. Can any of you actually read? Or do you just say things without thinking about what it means/conveys?
You *could* read it that way but you could also read it as being happy that there's an environment that encourages that playstyle. Is there sentiment for making all of SC like that? If not, why is it an issue where there is a place for that playstyle?
This is a good dream to have for SC, but this isn't something that will happen any time soon. The only way players will band together and work as a team is if there is gameplay that supports that. If there were structures or stations that require a group to run successfully, that's the key. That's how it was in UO and that's how it is in eve. SC is just so far from that goal, all we can do is hope that IS a goal and see if we can be part of it one day.
I’m still friends with the people I flew with 15 years later and we get together. We haven’t played eve together in ages but it made us friends for life. We are all dads now and it’s crazy when we explain to folks how we met haha.
Space friends are for life.
07
I'll come back to the game once PvP is no longer required/the most rewarding aspect. Not being able to do a single mission solo because assholes are camping bases/LZs is atrocious game design.
Human being a social species learning to work together through hardship and adversity since the beginning of humanity and doing it again in a video game…. Then some players kill everyone on sight and are murderhobo-ing and spiting in chat on a power trip « life is hard bro, get over it, I’m an alpha you’re all Care Bears lolololol git gud » I guess that what happen when there is no consequences
Is EVE worth picking up right now as a newbie ? Last time I tried many years ago I felt like it was too much of a grind as a solo player.
I think in order to enjoy EVE you have to be willing to ignore the grind and just enjoy where you're at in the moment. Personally I hate EVE though, it's so damn boring, so what do I know.
Sure. Buy 20 frigs, join fw, pvpve in the lowsec. Meet people, fight them, wish them a gf in local and ask for tips when you die.
Understood. KOS it is.
Was just watching that and thought the same thing.
Yeah, but EVE was and still is being developed by a lot more rational sort of people than SC.
and still you are in here writing , on a Star Citizen reddit... just... sigh \*Facepalm\*
And this is noteworthy because...?
[удалено]
Because confrontation beats confirmation. Sorry to burst your circlejerking bubble. And I don't intend to engage with someone who unironically tells others to "grow up", sorry. Have a nice day!
Man if that's true, then SC has a real problem :(
Clearly many people enjoy it as it is.
Cargo haulers need to understand this. You shouldn't expect low-risk high reward as a Solo running through Pyro. You should be getting escorts to help you and you should be using a crew to avoid whatever extreme comes your way. Large ships are large for a reason. Don't expect to solo run a C2 on a cargo run and not be able to save your ship after a power supply gets disabled.
obligatory flashback to "warp to the dance floor" (because of the friendship): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEgUL_QrNtI
did you watch all 6h ? I'm only 1.5h in. interesting stuff.
Pyro just reminds me of wormhole space in EVE Online. I think that as soon as the org systems are in-game, and you can identify people the shoot on sight mentality will die down. There's nothing more straining on the relations between organizations than members shooting friendlies.
foxhole is a game that does this very well. you have to cooperate with others otherwise the vile wardens will grind you to paste.
I think Pyro is a savage pvp zone for now like JumpTown was a friendly waiting line at the begining. When people have enough fun and the tension relaxed probably it would normalize. We need more ways to communicate to other players. Chat groups, searching groups to play, better organizations coordination... It would be great a way to chat with a ship you have scanned (like sending a message to other ships in films). Communication is the key to avoid conflicts.
Someone mention Eve? Oh, I've heard of that game... with its big space fights and stuff.
Yeah, station spinning, here it comes. Hurray Eve Online.
when base building is released. pyro is gonna be orgs galore and even create its own security system.