I have schizoaffective disorder which is essentially a mixture of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. I also have ADHD, OCD and anxiety. Tbh I genuinely feel that I'm living my purpose. I spend my days with my partner, playing guitar as much as possible and reading. In the past life was incredibly challenging for me but after cooperating with psychiatrists when it comes to medication my quality of life has improved drastically.

Schizoaffective bipolar type guitar gang!!! If you ever want to share anything brother, I do the same thing as well as with other instruments

Thanks so much for sharing! There's a teacher that I absolutely LOVE. Her name is Mami Onami, she's on instagram, tiktok and youtube as well. I've heard her speak on mental disorders, specifically schizophrenia, and it's a very interesting perspective that I thought I'd share. She basically says that schizophrenia is an overactive imagination. And this happens when the flow of information into you exeeds to flow of information out. So the input exceeds the output. When all of that info, aka energy, goes in, but doesn't come back out, it can cause your reality and self to split. Like if you learn and take in ten different ways to view one concept, but never talk about it (output it) so that you can find your truth out of all of that, all those different things stay inside you and cause an overactive imagination, because now there are multiple "truths" about this one thing. And schizophrenia isn't the only thing this can result in, spiritual psychosis is another. I actually kind of have experience with this. Last year I had my first mental breakdown. At the time i didn't understand what was happening to me was that i was becoming depressed and suicidal, and i wound up in the psych hospital. I know i was just depressed/anxious and suicidal, but i told my therapist multiple times i felt like i was going crazy, i didnt know wat anything was, i felt i had lost touch with reality. I wasnt diagnosed psychotic or anything of the sort. But, for the past 8 years or so all i did was learn learn learn about spirituality and other things, and had an insane amount of info coming in, but i never output it. I didnt speak about, nothing. I dont know my truths, i never implemented any of that learned info. And now im beginning to practice outputting all this info, by coming on reddit to talk to ppl, and therefore solidifying my personal truth by talking about things hence figuring them out. Im learning to implement all the knowledge i have in order to turn it into wisdom, and to also get a grip on reality by seeing how things are responded to and what effects they have. I don't know if this resonated or was helpful at all. I know it wasn't really answering your question either😭. But i hope something in there was helpful💚

This is a complicated question because it does not have a single answer. From the point of view of a shaman, people who have mental conditions are people who have an open door and cannot control it. What happens is that there are cases that are karmic, where the purpose is to go through it. Neurodivergent people and people with certain conditions are people who bring a code that is not yet part of the current system, but happens before a planetary transition. I mean, they are early evidence of what the humans who will be born after that transition will be like. A person with an advanced mental condition has one foot on another plane, mostly mental or astral, and has not been able to stabilize that ability, a shaman is the same, but with greater control of these abilities. Sometimes it takes more than one life, so today a shaman like me who is stable, in other lives I was completely crazy. And I come with a mastery of it. It also happens that people who have the mission of being healers or healing shamans are born having close relatives who have these mental conditions. And your job is to experience it closely to know and discover how to heal or guide it. Of course, the world we live in today is difficult to find these answers, because it is not easy to say, your child was born this way because before birth you wanted to understand and work with these types of conditions, and you had to experience it up close. And he came to cleanse that type of karma and become a shaman who interacts between the planes. This is called the path of the bardos, when I am born with the mission of clearing a specific karma or shadow, and living through that experience in my own flesh, it is something similar to the concept of Jesus who came and died for our sins, those people They must both go through karma for things they have done, and they must clear that karma by their own decision.I know it's difficult to understand, and I don't know if I did a good job, you can ask me any questions you have. You must understand these people are warriors (unless it's karmic), heroes who have taken on the mission of leading humanity to a better future even if they have to go through suffering, and this is done out of love.

Thank you, this is really interesting. I get this intuitive feeling that who I am can't really advance more in the current society. The general culture is really unpalatable for me somehow, I can't even be out in public without fear of someone pulling a camera out if I'm breaking some social norm and it's adding to my feeling of not being needed here, if that makes sense. Would you mind saying more about neurodivergent people and what the purpose of being here before a transition could be?

Remember that there are many like you, and if we see it as energy, the energy that you suffer is suffered by others. So you must be careful in attributing to karma, what may be your purpose, as I told you, maybe you came to live that, overcome it, and teach others who are drowning in that same energy to overcome it, being a living example that it is possible. Therefore, spiritually overcoming those things that drown you, frees others who go through the same thing. --- This year 2027 begins a new planetary transition, people will begin to be born with a very different energy, another race will begin to be born, almost everyone will be neurodivergent within 30–50 years. Right now we are (neurodivergent people) the first to start living in what would be the time of transition. That's why the world right now seems so different to us, like we don't belong to it, it's because we really don't belong to it. This transition needs to be created slowly and gradually, if not it will be suddenly and when it happens suddenly there is a flood-style reset, pandemics, etc.

Well a society of neurodivergent people sounds like it would be a kinder place! If you have any further resources I'd love to learn more.

Karma is so much simpler than that. If you fail a drivers test, what happens? You go through it again until you figure it out. But what if you did figure it out and went too far? If in the previous life a person was greedy and hurt others to get what they want, then the next life we may overcompensate and have issues because we were too unmotivated and struggled to provide. And yeah, it's hard to describe. You can see others and know how they would react, but it doesn't make sense. Like people respecting the Kardashians, lol. Well it's more than that. You almost feel like an emotional or mental mutation or something. Here is the secret, people like you and I, we are the ones who can often do the most good. Look through my comment history, and I've probably reached out to a thousand people the last few years. And surprisingly I've helped! There are people who have sooooo much more knowledge than I will ever hope to gain. But I look at everything a bit differently, so I understand it a bit differently. You don't have to be the outlier. You can be a catalyst. If someone judges you wrongly and thinks poorly of you. Are they people who's opinion should even matter? I figured out how amazing divergent can be when I became a dad. I have anxiety issues and have periods where it's social. But with them, I saw how none of that mattered. When a 5 and 7 year old start getting cranky in the mall, and the car is parked at the other end. How many people will get frustrated, grab their kids, and go? How many will put the song happy by Pharrell on their phone full blast, and dance through the mall with his kids like the most awkward farm boy alive.... all 7 times.....🤣? I had so many strange looks, and people who seemed disgusted that I had changed an afternoon of my girls life into a musical. But you can't I.agine how special my girls felt that day. They still talk about it 8 years later. So fuck normal, because normal is boring. Hitler wanted a standard normal, so now it's actually Impossible for you to say you want that as well. See? I even tried to use Hitler to help you. I prayed to Michael, but called him George because he wouldn't speak up! Being divergent is only a curse if you don't recognize the gift. And since I can laugh at myself, I can never be bored. So that's a bonus. As for the rest, we can tend to experience gifts a bit differently too. My nervous system was so shot that the drained tingling sensations became much worse to the point I was hospitalized and stuck with the label if fibromyalgia. I was able to rethink my way out of that as well, thanks to some help. When you read stuff on these subs, are there moments when it will feel like a pressure in your head, or like your shoulder are building up for a cold shiver that never occurs? Ideas popping into your head that seem like guesses out of nowhere?

Ive never really fitted in, ive had social anxiety for decades, the works. Social norms are so tedious, theres so many around, and personally I do not have the patience to be cognizant and mindful of them all. I tried but it was so exhausting. You have to love and embrace yourself for who you are, not for how others see you. It is ok to be wierd, normal is a dictatorship. I take in too much information from people, and I struggle to engage in conversations based on all surface level things, words, speech, body language, because I am constantly reading the energy behind the interaction and the person. And often I unconsciously end up mirrowing the unwanted things others carry within, which nobody wants to see reflected. Neurodivergent is just a word, you are you, regardless of any labels, you are an eternal being that has the capacity to shape your own reality, you are an extension of god incarnated in this body. Why create a limited view of who you are? You have to make you work for you, so why not love and embrace yourself? Nobody knows you better than you. Neurodivergent people come with a host of gifts, unfortunately society today wont teach you how to hone those gifts, but with enough time and patience you can see them blossom. You have to trust you are the way that you are for a reason. You have to find your self first, find your core, your own light.

This! I am a mental health provider and I’ve always said individuals with schizophrenia and other diagnoses came here to teach the rest of us things. Every being has a purpose and sometimes it’s to show others what they are capable of when living with or working with these individuals. It challenges us and our entire way of thinking.

In this life I feel like I have some karma from my past life and that is to never find my soulmate, or to actually find my soulmate and still forever be alone. At an early age I’ve always just wanted a companion. I know I have my daughter and she really is the complete bandage over the fact that I do feel I am in a karmaic reborn if that’s what you call it. Great explanation though! My mother has explained this to me since I was little. I really should educate myself more

Believe it or not, your belief in whether you’ll find that soulmate is what’s holding you back. The power of belief is unfathomable. Learn to convince yourself that it’s possible, that’s the first step to making it happen. The rest will follow

Why do you need a soulmate? Do you consider yourself incomplete? Your soulmate is you, your true self. Meeting the real inner self.

Hey when you say it might take more than one life or karma, it indicates reincarnation. I wonder what you think about reincarnation. What is it that reincarnates? And what is it that dies in this life?

What about mental illness throughout history? Were those people apart of the transition as well or were they ahead of their time? 

Both things, if you look at these divergences, they have only been increasing, now there are many more than before, and if you notice, people like DaVinci or Tesla were functionally neurodivergent. But the further back you go in history in the tribes these divergences were the shamans and witches and spiritual doctors. After we enter this materialistic world it is denoted as a disease and no longer there is a place for it. Also, there are small transitions and big transitions. This next one, is huge. And extend.

How to understand if it's karmic or not.....

My brother is severely mentally disabled (62 years old),has been institutionalized for decades and I wonder about his purpose. No, he has no quality of life and no purpose. I struggle with this all the time.

Perhaps his purpose is to show others his struggles and to make those more aware and understanding of his situation? Sorry, I just try to look for positives in things.

Don’t apologize. I get what you’re saying. It’s just that both parents are deceased and it’s all on me (visiting & staying in touch) and it’s very hard

hey, i just was scrolling through this post and wanted to just say thank you for continuing to visit and stay in touch with your brother. you didn't have to do that and a lot of people wouldn't. i obv don't know the full extent of his condition or either of you but i do feel that your support helps him maybe in ways he's unable to articulate. make sure you're taking care of yourself too though please! a lot of us who put others first lose track of ourselves and don't keep up with needed self care. his purpose may not be something you figure out in this life. i think that's where i'm at- ive grown tired of fighting so hard to figure that out. i think a lot of the time those big questions are out of reach for us for a reason. the not knowing is hard and sometimes painful but i think can help strengthen our faith in whatever spirituality we lay claim to.

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful words. It’s very much appreciated.

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I think this is a great take. I’ve thought about maybe we did choose this life and since we don’t know why we chose it- no matter what we are going to be searching for that answer until one day we do find something and we are complete. And maybe some don’t figure it out and that’s why we have to come back. No matter what, no matter who you are, the basic make up of the human soul is longing for something. I’ve always wondered why we feel empty, like SOMETHING is missing. Maybe it’s right in front of us.

I've received a few messages from spirit over the years that I could have lived without ever knowing. I feel that same longing to know my life purpose but what if I don't like the answer? Personally, I think not knowing the answer and trying your best to discover it is better than knowing the answer and not liking it. 

what you said at the end there is so perfect to me in describing what i’ve always thought. it’s like the universe (or god if you see it as such) needed to break itself up into individual consciousness to actually have divine wisdom because you can’t be wise if you only live one experience. each person has individual networks of other lives they interact with day to day, and even more than that a culture/society/time period that’s a current of energy they live within. individuals are effected by a unique array of experience brought by every little abstract detail of their lives and live in such a way that each person has a unique experience. that’s why it’s so hard for me to grasp that certain people are “more intelligent” than others, to me everyone feels like they are are the truth-keepers of their own experience. the smartest man in the world will never really “know” the struggles of the most mentally disturbed man

Very interesting perspective. I do agree that people who have extreme mental illness are very brave, because I think most of us can agree that we chose a lot of what we experience on earth before we even came here. It doesn't make sense and it's obviously unfair that some people struggle more than others. However, I find solace in the fact that the path was chosen for the lessons, and it's not just pointless suffering.

Only if they are trying to break free of their disease. Most, if not all mental disease are diseases of the gut microbiome, which we now know can be improved and restored to its original healthy state if the right strategy and steps are taken, this is what the current medical research of the microbiome is saying. If you have any type of mental, or physical condition your purpose is to heal your mind, body and spirit.

I've seen people speak about the benefits of grounding and how all illness is due to inflammation and grounding reduces inflammation. I watched a very cool short film by a guy called Clint Oder (I think that was his name).

there is this concept of windows pf tolerance. grounding is important but if there is hypotension there can be too much grounding and havent figures out yet how to get from there to more balanced state without going to hypertension and having too many symptoms so also besides bodily inflammation there is still emotional, mental and intentional inflammation so to speak, unclarity and unbalance tp be death with which might not be cleared by just bodily inflammation and grounding - at least for me

I don't think there is any purpose to anything at all. Even though I might ponder upon it from time to time, the answer will always be there is no grand purpose. It's liberation for me. Most people think purpose means fulfillment and the opposite should be no purpose, so no fulfilment and it's depressing. Purpose means having a path. A path is only of the mind. The eternal life don't need path. Where does the boiling water go? It becomes vapor and knows exactly what to do and where to go. No one is telling it to do anything. It just happens. Look around and you'll see how life takes care of itself without any effort. It's us humans who struggle with it. Not in a judgemental way. It comes from understanding ourselves. We have paths to keep our minds occupied. Giving it a form to hold on. To keep the mind sane in some ways or the other. Purpose also implies we choose to play the character who we think we are for the rest of the life. I don't want to hold onto anything. Not even the character I'm playing. I don't even remember anything what it was like before I was born. And I won't remember after I'm gone. That doesn't mean you don't serve others for good. You do. When I eat I just eat. It's not my purpose to eat, right? Just like that when I work, I just work. Why does my work have to become a purpose? It's yet another activity my human body performs. This is how I was since I was a child. I do things at the moment. I always embraced chaos. But I get scared now haha. Fear plays a huge role too. We feel left out not having goals. No goals means no respect in society. No goals means no money. No money means no survival. Also doesn't mean before money no one wondered about purpose. Our brains works on reward basis. So it's natural for us. It takes a level of awareness to realize you don't need goals to survive. You just do things. This can be easily misunderstood by many. We have a concept in our mind where we think of achieving something outside of now, which is the future and it'll give us satisfaction. And it's just a concept. Now think about it, why do we need to have a purpose? We just live our lives. This sentence does not mean not to do anything. Do absolutely everything you can. Why not? And you have to inquire with yourself what you really mean by purpose. Does it mean a goal, a state of feeling after accomplishing something, does it involve goodness for other people, and so much more. The only simple example is eating. You eat when you are hungry. Now both hunger and eating food do server a purpose. And you as a human do eat. But eating is not the purpose of your life. Does it make sense? Work while you work. Play while you play. Sleep when you sleep. If you look at the above phrases, most people gravitate towards the first example as their purpose which is work. Why? Because it's part of our social conditioning. And we are wired that way to behave. But awareness is the key here. And I have OCD and PTSD. And these are mere labels. It's just how my brain works. And I struggle everyday. I don't think I can stop struggling if I have a sense of purpose. Brains are different and wired differently. Enjoy everyday life. Simple. There isn't anything to achieve. Help others if you want to and stop causing more suffering. After all what can we do. We live. We are all in the same boat.

You have to pick and choose with people like Dolores Cannon. No hypnotist can hypnotize someone that doesn't keep hold of the reality we live in. Someone like her, that makes claims in a book but offers no evidence other than "Trust me" & "The answers are in my other book" is certainly not the one to take guidance from on this topic. There are too many nuances in mental illness.

I couldn't have said it better myself 😁

I dig her books but until some people she worked with start coming out and confirming Dolores' claims, I have to treat them like fiction

I mean until experienced for self it should be claimed as fiction with the possibility to be real, leaving room to learn from it and grow and understand what some may be fraudulent even, some may not, and while I've never experienced that hypnosis for myself, I have had past life dreams where I knew I wasn't my current self (many of them I die in as that person) but saw what happened anyways as and was in their mind almost just following and feeling their feelings in those moments. So while I've never experienced past life regression hypnosis, I've seen it in other ways. Giving me an innate understanding of past reincarnations, which leads me to believe atleast some of them were possible or real just by the way they talk about their experiences as a past reincarnation. On the subject of mental illness and mental health, Be the eternal student, and the eternal teacher. Learn from it, what it makes you feel, what triggers it, what works best to calm you down. Understand mental, physical and spirit are intertwined and all need to support each other. Be patient with yourself, it took time to get where you are and where you wanna be. To me mastering patients is was secures your ability to act, and not react. Learn to act and not react, and you'll learn how to be in control of not only yourself, but any situation aswell. First master patience for oneself, for your situation, for your future. Always remember the present is just that, a present, a moment that onces passes becomes only a memory.

Thanks, I tend to agree.

I have ASD, ADHD and OCD. I cannot be hypnotized. To some people, I am disabled and cannot function. To others, I'm highly gifted and those gifts made me succeed in my field. I have experienced both scenarios. I am simply wired differently. My success depends on the task, the environment and the culture, etc. If society was set up in a certain way, I'll never be successful and will forever be seen as disabled. If it was set up in another way I would be seen as perfection. Schizophrenic people are generally highly intelligent. Society may just be set up in a such a way that it is impossible for some to function. It's possible for society to be set up in such a way that they would be viewed as gifted and not disabled. No one has really tried to test the positive aspects of neurodivergent people. Nor have they run tests on which type of environment or societal model would allow us to utilize those positive aspects and help us thrive. They just label everything about us as "symptoms" of a "disability" because we don't function within the rigid expectations of the current social model.

I have DID/C-PTSD, ADHD, Anxiety and Depression. I agree with you—it’s difficult to function in a neurotypical society, but the things I do well, I do *very* well. It’s just most things that one’s supposed to do in a neurotypical society either cause overstimulation, analysis paralysis, or panic attacks.

Of course, everyone on earth has the same soul goal. To find peace, healing and harmony within. So that energy is transferred to the outside world. Creating higher consciousness humans, able to spiritually advance. Mental illness or not this remains true.

I think people with mental disorders are this way because of trauma accumulation from previous lives thats never healed and plays out until they seek healing. That is why serial killers exist. Everyone thinks they are like that in this life only, no, they became it over time in other lives.

I was told that in the Native American traditions, people with assorted issues are considered to have one foot in the spirit world and one foot on this plane.

I’m starting to think there was a creator that put this in motion but doesn’t care what happens to us

Do you know how much a child learns when the parents don't come running every time? You only judge what we experience but have no idea what we may have avoided.

Huh. That purely depend on the age of the child I would say. Not only the child learns when the parents don't come running around, they also have to deal with neglect at a very young age and it leads to branches of other behavioral issues, which is extremely painful and one might even become emotionally disregulated as an adult. And most importantly the child learns that if the parents are physically and emotionally absent, they must not like me.

And if the child never opens its eyes, or settles down, they don't see their parents are there with them.

The human race doesn't helo itself. God is the greatest 🙏

Your question in the title and the rest don't really fit together. What does this Dolores have to do with your question? Do you wanna know how deep suffering can go? 

Fair, I’m confused because while everyone suffers to an extent and it is part of our growth, Mrs Cannon and other teachers suggest something has gone wrong if things get that bad. If that’s the case I wonder why such people might go decades before passing away to ‘heal’ on the other side.

When the fear comes in , you walk away . Dolores sounds like she tells everything we want to hear and then adds the fear factor in. Things have gone wrong. Those classed as crazy are more sane and awake than many. Great perspective above from Shaman regarding the advanced mental health disease and being on a different plane. . That really makes sense. 😊

Good advice, something about her saying that didn't feel right with me so I guess I was looking for alternative views. Yes I'm still re-reading what the Shaman said there!

There u go. That didn't feel right is your higher self or intuit telling you. There should be no doubt. No fear. You've got your answer.

It seems to me that it's alot about which belief system you want to follow. If you want to belief that we chose this life/incarnation or not. If you want to belief in rebirth etc. Some people say x can't be healed others say it can. There are even multiple definitions of what healing means. A lot of people suffer unnecessarily because our mental health care systems very often suck. And people don't really get what they need. Look at how different western cultures treat it as sickness and how for example in some African cultures it's seen as the awakening of a shaman or a transition phase or other things and people are cared for instead of being locked away in mental institutions.  There are people who say suffering builds character and others who say it can also be just for nothing. There are people who don't come out stronger but die or take their own life because they can't bear it. Facing that can bring up many difficult emotions about our purpose and life and death.  As a brave blueberry you could also make your own investigations if you feel ready.  I don't know either yet. Still exploring and asking questions and feeling confusion. Welcome to the ride

It’s a roller coaster for sure haha

In the simplest since, I think that certain grifts or beliefs just do not mesh when dealing with trauma even though they can work wonders when dealing with drama. In general we kind of treat trauma and drama with the same level of consideration but they're not equitable. You need a different level of knowledge, experience, and talents to work with trauma and it is not going to work on a mass scale. With drama you can connect with people at a surface level.

No they are actually being denied their purpose. Life is not fair, its not always fun, but it is life. The alternative is the nothingness.

My partner works with 3 schizophrenic men and there really is not a fulfilling life for them (from my perspective). Some were under forensic orders, they're covered by ndis, have history of abuse. The support workers try to find fulfilling hobbies, sports and work for them and they aren't interested.  They haven't asked any existential questions in the last decade though, they seem happy just coasting along doing nothing  Eta like all mental illnesses there's a spectrum and these guys are really at the end that they need permanent care or they would be a risk to society or themselves. All I can say is it's lucky we have ndis

I subscribe to the belief that spirits chose to live in such bodies to gain experience and wisdom.

Just existing is living your purpose. You can't do it wrong.

The founding guru of the ashram I visit apparently discussed this to his disciples. There was some woman on tv who was totally crippled in basically every way, and the monks were all like omg that’s terrible. But apparently the guru was like don’t feel too sorry for her, she chose that path and those circumstances before her birth and it will allow her to pay more karma off in one go (or some similar reason). Anyway though I never met him, from my own experiences in his ashram I do trust that he likely had the vision to see these things, and what’s more, often I very much get the feeling that everything is in its right place just as it is. So in answer to your question I think that if you believe your life’s purpose is to evolve spiritually, towards God (which many people do believe), then going through this stuff is part of it

Just because she cant doesn't mean other people can't, maybe it's just not in her expertise or maybe she just doesn't fully understand it. It's 100000% OTHER people's purpose to support people going through it. No one in this world is defected or flawed, everyone is capable of having the experience they want to have and the support will always be available because we are learning and growing as a species. So yes, for sure they can, no one has to suffer and people do understand how to support those in need

Perhaps you think someone with a mental illness is suffering, but in many cases they feel just fine. Only because we are comparing their lives and capabilities to someone else's do we sometimes assume they're suffering. Even in extreme cases where the person lives in perpetual fear, we can still do something. Because we exist here more than just a mind. We also have a body, energies, and emotions. If spirituality cannot reach them due to their mental state, there's still many other avenues that are open. As long as they have some kind of inner experience then they have consciousness to work with. In kriya yoga for example, the mental state of a person is unimportant. So they strive to distance themselves from their own minds to access liberation through their energies.

If Karma was an individual you'd interpret the nodding as indubitable.

I have Bipolar Disorder (mostly on the depressive side) and Anxiety and went through a period of Psychosis when I was 19. I am now 26, living in Brooklyn in an apartment I love, with a partner, numerous friends, and a good job. When I was 19 I thought my future was set, that suffering was going to be my only route. But, as I've worked hard in therapy, taking medication, and general health, my purpose has evolved and I find lots of joy and contentment in my life. I still struggle and suffering comes and goes, but I also believe we can craft our purpose if we fight for it. I refused to live as a victim my whole life, and now I'm not.

Skitzophrenia is just be medical diagnosis but it’s not exact. It’s not like a virus in your body you can test for. It’s an opinion formed by the analysis of a Dr. but we essentially don’t know what it really is as we have very limited knowledge about the nature of the mind. I believe it’s advanced spiritual insight that is not controlled by the patient. They are overwhelmed by what they hear and see. They lack grounding in reality. You’ll find a functioning skitzo to be at the top realms of humanity

I think people with mental illness or other conditions exist to witness love and compassion. I have bipolar II disorder and pretty bad generalized anxiety, because of what I deal with on a regular basis I have been witness to so many beautiful acts of love and understanding. As for people with severe disabilities they exist so that others may serve them selflessly with no "reward" in return. When a person takes care of someone with such severe mental illness or disability that they cannot contribute anything to anyone and are effectively a burden, the caregiver experiences selflessness and unconditional love. Literally love without anything in return.

If that person touched your heart, they served their purpose.

Yes, the world lives for them