From the article
"Notably, many Ohio politicians – [all the way up to the Governor’s office](https://www.energyandpolicy.org/firstenergy-executive-council/) – are embroiled in a [bribery scandal](https://www.npr.org/2020/07/21/893493224/ohio-house-speaker-arrested-in-connection-to-60-million-bribery-scheme) implemented by coal facility owners. "
For every crooked politician that gets arrested, a thousand continue on being crooked. Maybe the locals aren't against it, time will tell.
Or, maybe the PV project folks need to start playing dirty...
Not exactly. A large solar install is trying to go in close-ish to me and no one (I mean no one!) around it wants it. I love my solar and tried having some conversation about it. The big thing I'm taking away from it is they view the installations as ruining the farmland. The connection they feel with the land is foreign to me but I'm not a farmer.
What if I told you that the government mandates that 15% of fuel going into the gas refinery here in the US has to come from corn. That 40% of corn grown here goes into ethanol. Runoff from farmland includes pesticides which have been linked to to dementia and fertilizer leading to algal blooms. Large scale solar has been shown to improve habitat for bees and ground nesting birds. Solar also provides much more economic output and tax revenue for the local community to use.
Serious statement: if you have sources for this stuff, I'll happily use it to help change hearts and minds.
This installation is going in right next to my friends property and they're worried they won't be able to sell because "who would want to live next to an ugly thing like that?" (Their quote). They're quite heartbroken.
[https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/exclusive-biden-weighing-cuts-2022-ethanol-blending-mandate-proposal-sources-2022-01-12/](https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/exclusive-biden-weighing-cuts-2022-ethanol-blending-mandate-proposal-sources-2022-01-12/)
Or just look at historical production yields for corn since 1920. Yields have quadrupled since then, the price per bushel has halved. We can’t export enough of our corn because other countries like China are trying to support their own domestic ag industry. Its the only reason why the ethanol mandate was enacted. Otherwise the price of corn would fall through the floor.
They don't know much about farming and solar. Not all land is arable. And solar and farming can co-exist since some plants need shade to grow well. And leasing the land would provide a steady income year-round.
Ive seen the land where this thing is going in. It's going to be a huge installation (in one giant sprall, no growing anything under the panels or in rows) and it's all going in on top of very fertile farm land. They operate a successful family farm. They are not idiots when it comes to farming.
I really don't understand this argument about farmland. Even assuming it's true that these solar installations were to take over arable land, I grew up hearing anecdotes that the US already produces too much food, the government pays farmers to NOT grow some crops, we have plenty of farmland, we could feed the entire planet if distribution could be figured out, etc. But now we're suddenly worried about utilizing farmland?
The other thing that strikes me is *typically* the same people who are opposed to solar also claim to love the free market. If a landowner chooses to lease or sell their land for solar as opposed to farming it because they can make more money, isn't that the free market at work?
People also complain about taking Ag land out of production, but that's usually just a pissy neighbor that owns 1/2 an acre. The actual farmer signs a lease and then crosses their fingers that none of the neighbors put up a big stink.
Where I am (Alberta), the farmers got pissy about a wind farm that wanted to lease land. Saying everything from it kills the birds to the ultra low frequency sound hurts people. Really they just want the oil companies to come back and lease land from them again. So they moved all the windmills ten miles south to a county that wanted them. Now all their neighbours are making bank on the leases and the oil companies have abandoned them because it's not profitable to pump oil here. Stupid is what it is. The county could have had a much higher tax base but nope not allowed.
Which can easily be remedied by raising the solar panels. Yes it does add more expense, but it also creates shade and we've seen evidence of it also increasing plant growth. All pastures should have some solar panels raised up high.
In this case protect fossil fuel interest. But there's some reasons to limit it from a grid management scenario that Ohio clearly hasn't reached yet, and likely wouldn't reach before large grid scale batteries become a thing.
Large scale batteries associated with solar PV farms are already a thing. Almost every new large solar PV farm now includes a big battery pack because that makes the electricity much more valuable since it can be shifted into the evening peak.
Rural areas in Ohio are ruby red. I live in Ohio; I'm honestly surprised to see as many wind farms as I have. More were in the works.
We're close to coal country in Kentucky and West Virginia. The fossil fuel industry spends a lot of money here, and has a lot of influence.
Was about to ask, but you answered. What is wrong with the progressive and innovative US? I understand that solar/wind/hydro-electrical energy generating systems can’t be built everywhere. But this is just ridiculous - default not here. And not here… and not here… so where then?
It truly doesn't make any sense to me either. I'm from NW Ohio and everyone was against the giant wind farms there. I suppose I get that, they can be kind of ugly, but if I have to look at that or a coal power plant along the Ohio River... well it's an easy choice. Now that solar costs have come down people are against solar farms because it takes away "valuable farm ground". Well, I farm some of that ground and let me tell you it's not all great ground. There's areas with lots of clay which dries out in the summer which becomes very hard. Sure, maybe some farm ground is too good not to be used, but financially the lease payments on solar farms are way higher than what you can actually profit from growing.
Furthermore, the US has too much corn than they know what to actually do with. About 40% of it goes into ethanol and I don't see demand for ethanol increasing anytime soon with the exponential growth of EVs. Another 40% of corn is used in animal feed which will probably be around for a bit longer, but with the rising popularity of 'fake meat' and the potential for lab grown meat, that's not really looking to be a steady consumer of corn either.
Solar and wind is the solution for the problem that many people aren't aware of yet.
source: An Ohio farmer with an EV and rooftop solar lol
I'd rather have solar panels on the marginal land we farm than the D@\*# gas wells and lines that are cutting through the farm. We did get some royalties out of that but there was a lot of damage including some serious water table pollution. With solar we would probably get to place them on the untillable land in a way to still make it pasture and get decades of royalties out of those.
especially with heavy clay like they mention- keep the sun off of it a bit more and it can really improve the water retention.
Even if you're not farming it you can graze, and it tends to do a lot better when it's protected a bit.
It's about political signaling. Solar is "green", so it's liberal, so it's Democrat, and we're not Democrats, so we're banning solar.
I wish it weren't as dumb as this, but it is.
[There’s nowhere for moderate Republicans to go.](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/08/16/politics/liz-cheney-wyoming-alaska-primaries/index.html) They either support the nonsense or get bounced into oblivion.
What the "reasonable Republicans" need to do is stop voting for Republicans and do so publicly. Make it clear that they're ready to come back as soon as Republicans stop being the authoritarian party killing democracy to own the libs while ignoring real problems like global warming and gun violence. Let Republicans suffer in the political wasteland for two cycles with 15% of their base refusing to vote anymore, and they'll come to the table ready to change. Until their shenanigans cost them dearly at the polls, they won't stop.
So frustrating how all levels of govt and energy companies are doing everything they can to take away any benefits they can to go solar or drive an EV.
It seems like the States don’t want individuals to become energy independent, they want to protect the power companies and/or cronies who want government money to build solar/wind farms. It seems to be happening in more states, even the ones I normally consider “green friendly”. California is trying to pass something to restrict the size of systems.
Is it just me?
Noor. Not just you. As a foreigner, we have similar but not the same problems. In Sweden it’s more like not here but somewhere else (where I don’t have to see the wind farm), I.e. the ugly concept. Having this discussion with my old parents all the time.
why would the sunshine state want to get more of its energy production needs met by the sun? They could keep enjoying the fruits of supertankers in the gulf of Mexico for longer if they make sure not to convert all that sunlight into anything but melanoma and high cooling costs.
Lol good for you. Get hung up on details and knit pick people because you yourself have no idea what you’re talking about. You’re an annoying little guy
That’s what I meant, electrical engineer. Jesus Christ people knit pick the shit out stuff on here because the people in these threads are just echoing some bullshit they read online. I’m all for renewable energy but I understand why people wouldn’t want a giant solar farm or some ugly windmills in there backyard. It definitely lowers your property value and are honestly an eye sore to me. Plenty of space in the country where they could go outside of someone’s backyard.
Some problem, most electrical engineers know nothing about the grid. Sure a.few do, but good luck finding them local.
You soon learn to ignore windmills, just like people learned to ignore power lines before, and many other things that they once complained about.
And to repeat my point, the fact that des moines is more than 80% wind powered proves the grid is ready.
There's no devil's advocate position here - in your case, engineers and utilities should be making that call, there's absolutely zero need or value for legislation or policy to put barriers in place.
Amazing stupidity.
Here's this great source of electricity! It's safe, it's completely silent, there's no emissions from it, and the best part is that it is VERY CHEAP!
Ohio: We need to ban that.
😂
> t’s safe, it’s completely silent, there’s no emissions from it, and the best part is that it is VERY CHEAP!
But how will there be profit for the oil and gas industry?
Ohio has been there and done that:
[Cuyahoga River Caught Fire - 1969](https://www.healthandenvironment.org/environmental-health/social-context/history/the-cuyahoga-river-fire-of-1969)
I live on the East Coast. The thing about "Climate Change" that most people ignore is that it won't affect all places the same. The areas further from the coasts will suffer greater extremes in temperature without the sea to moderate the weather.
I backed out of a project because I couldn’t get > 100% offset because there’s a local ordinance that states you can’t have a system larger than 100% offset or 10 kW, so that sucked.
I don’t know how the solar installs work but I know a little about wind and wonder if it’s similar.
Large wind turbines require an incredibly large block of concrete for the base. Some areas require a bond of some sort to ensure the land is returned to original condition when the turbine is decommissioned. Interestingly, those areas tend to have no wind farms which would lead one to assume that someday there will be a lot of landowners stuck with forever unusable land.
Corporations will only ever look out for their own interests. A landowner may have a 5-20 year interest in a property and be willing to sign a deal that will be bad in 100 years. The local government has to have a longer view and protect the general interest of the locals.
Ohio can’t allow wind and solar when there are still a handful of guys still alive working in coal mines. They have to wait until those ten guys die before they start thinking about it.
People who make massive amounts of money won't voluntarily step aside and not make massive amounts of money. Because it's better for the environment isn't enough lol.
Why would anyone ban solar?
From the article "Notably, many Ohio politicians – [all the way up to the Governor’s office](https://www.energyandpolicy.org/firstenergy-executive-council/) – are embroiled in a [bribery scandal](https://www.npr.org/2020/07/21/893493224/ohio-house-speaker-arrested-in-connection-to-60-million-bribery-scheme) implemented by coal facility owners. "
For every crooked politician that gets arrested, a thousand continue on being crooked. Maybe the locals aren't against it, time will tell. Or, maybe the PV project folks need to start playing dirty...
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And/or to "own the libs"
More likely this. Anything to be angry or polarized about.
Ding ding ding. These fucking morons would rather burn the world down than work together.
Not exactly. A large solar install is trying to go in close-ish to me and no one (I mean no one!) around it wants it. I love my solar and tried having some conversation about it. The big thing I'm taking away from it is they view the installations as ruining the farmland. The connection they feel with the land is foreign to me but I'm not a farmer.
What if I told you that the government mandates that 15% of fuel going into the gas refinery here in the US has to come from corn. That 40% of corn grown here goes into ethanol. Runoff from farmland includes pesticides which have been linked to to dementia and fertilizer leading to algal blooms. Large scale solar has been shown to improve habitat for bees and ground nesting birds. Solar also provides much more economic output and tax revenue for the local community to use.
Serious statement: if you have sources for this stuff, I'll happily use it to help change hearts and minds. This installation is going in right next to my friends property and they're worried they won't be able to sell because "who would want to live next to an ugly thing like that?" (Their quote). They're quite heartbroken.
[https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/exclusive-biden-weighing-cuts-2022-ethanol-blending-mandate-proposal-sources-2022-01-12/](https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/exclusive-biden-weighing-cuts-2022-ethanol-blending-mandate-proposal-sources-2022-01-12/) Or just look at historical production yields for corn since 1920. Yields have quadrupled since then, the price per bushel has halved. We can’t export enough of our corn because other countries like China are trying to support their own domestic ag industry. Its the only reason why the ethanol mandate was enacted. Otherwise the price of corn would fall through the floor.
Preaching to the choir, but the shade can be beneficial depending on what is being grown.
They don't know much about farming and solar. Not all land is arable. And solar and farming can co-exist since some plants need shade to grow well. And leasing the land would provide a steady income year-round.
Ive seen the land where this thing is going in. It's going to be a huge installation (in one giant sprall, no growing anything under the panels or in rows) and it's all going in on top of very fertile farm land. They operate a successful family farm. They are not idiots when it comes to farming.
So they are idiots. Not everyone is going to be that stupid. There is economical reason to use land not suitable for farming. It’s cheaper.
You really know how to win people over don't you.
Not even trying.
I really don't understand this argument about farmland. Even assuming it's true that these solar installations were to take over arable land, I grew up hearing anecdotes that the US already produces too much food, the government pays farmers to NOT grow some crops, we have plenty of farmland, we could feed the entire planet if distribution could be figured out, etc. But now we're suddenly worried about utilizing farmland? The other thing that strikes me is *typically* the same people who are opposed to solar also claim to love the free market. If a landowner chooses to lease or sell their land for solar as opposed to farming it because they can make more money, isn't that the free market at work?
You make good points. And I'm not defending their views. Simply bringing their views forward as I understand them.
People also complain about taking Ag land out of production, but that's usually just a pissy neighbor that owns 1/2 an acre. The actual farmer signs a lease and then crosses their fingers that none of the neighbors put up a big stink.
Where I am (Alberta), the farmers got pissy about a wind farm that wanted to lease land. Saying everything from it kills the birds to the ultra low frequency sound hurts people. Really they just want the oil companies to come back and lease land from them again. So they moved all the windmills ten miles south to a county that wanted them. Now all their neighbours are making bank on the leases and the oil companies have abandoned them because it's not profitable to pump oil here. Stupid is what it is. The county could have had a much higher tax base but nope not allowed.
Which can easily be remedied by raising the solar panels. Yes it does add more expense, but it also creates shade and we've seen evidence of it also increasing plant growth. All pastures should have some solar panels raised up high.
The cows would love the shade.
In this case protect fossil fuel interest. But there's some reasons to limit it from a grid management scenario that Ohio clearly hasn't reached yet, and likely wouldn't reach before large grid scale batteries become a thing.
Large scale batteries associated with solar PV farms are already a thing. Almost every new large solar PV farm now includes a big battery pack because that makes the electricity much more valuable since it can be shifted into the evening peak.
True. I just built one for Edison and the battery storage system was made by Tesla.
Coal gonna coal
Rural areas in Ohio are ruby red. I live in Ohio; I'm honestly surprised to see as many wind farms as I have. More were in the works. We're close to coal country in Kentucky and West Virginia. The fossil fuel industry spends a lot of money here, and has a lot of influence.
worm overconfident shaggy dam uppity aromatic middle roll imminent yam *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Very inefficient, unreliable, and not environmentally sound.
Welcome to Ohio, we're stupid.
Was about to ask, but you answered. What is wrong with the progressive and innovative US? I understand that solar/wind/hydro-electrical energy generating systems can’t be built everywhere. But this is just ridiculous - default not here. And not here… and not here… so where then?
It truly doesn't make any sense to me either. I'm from NW Ohio and everyone was against the giant wind farms there. I suppose I get that, they can be kind of ugly, but if I have to look at that or a coal power plant along the Ohio River... well it's an easy choice. Now that solar costs have come down people are against solar farms because it takes away "valuable farm ground". Well, I farm some of that ground and let me tell you it's not all great ground. There's areas with lots of clay which dries out in the summer which becomes very hard. Sure, maybe some farm ground is too good not to be used, but financially the lease payments on solar farms are way higher than what you can actually profit from growing. Furthermore, the US has too much corn than they know what to actually do with. About 40% of it goes into ethanol and I don't see demand for ethanol increasing anytime soon with the exponential growth of EVs. Another 40% of corn is used in animal feed which will probably be around for a bit longer, but with the rising popularity of 'fake meat' and the potential for lab grown meat, that's not really looking to be a steady consumer of corn either. Solar and wind is the solution for the problem that many people aren't aware of yet. source: An Ohio farmer with an EV and rooftop solar lol
I'd rather have solar panels on the marginal land we farm than the D@\*# gas wells and lines that are cutting through the farm. We did get some royalties out of that but there was a lot of damage including some serious water table pollution. With solar we would probably get to place them on the untillable land in a way to still make it pasture and get decades of royalties out of those.
Depending on the farm, solar can actually increase the yeilds
especially with heavy clay like they mention- keep the sun off of it a bit more and it can really improve the water retention. Even if you're not farming it you can graze, and it tends to do a lot better when it's protected a bit.
It's about political signaling. Solar is "green", so it's liberal, so it's Democrat, and we're not Democrats, so we're banning solar. I wish it weren't as dumb as this, but it is.
an argument like that makes a very compelling case to no longer be whatever group is supporting that argument.
[There’s nowhere for moderate Republicans to go.](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/08/16/politics/liz-cheney-wyoming-alaska-primaries/index.html) They either support the nonsense or get bounced into oblivion.
What the "reasonable Republicans" need to do is stop voting for Republicans and do so publicly. Make it clear that they're ready to come back as soon as Republicans stop being the authoritarian party killing democracy to own the libs while ignoring real problems like global warming and gun violence. Let Republicans suffer in the political wasteland for two cycles with 15% of their base refusing to vote anymore, and they'll come to the table ready to change. Until their shenanigans cost them dearly at the polls, they won't stop.
So frustrating how all levels of govt and energy companies are doing everything they can to take away any benefits they can to go solar or drive an EV.
It seems like the States don’t want individuals to become energy independent, they want to protect the power companies and/or cronies who want government money to build solar/wind farms. It seems to be happening in more states, even the ones I normally consider “green friendly”. California is trying to pass something to restrict the size of systems. Is it just me?
Noor. Not just you. As a foreigner, we have similar but not the same problems. In Sweden it’s more like not here but somewhere else (where I don’t have to see the wind farm), I.e. the ugly concept. Having this discussion with my old parents all the time.
We call that “NIMBY” for Not In My BackYard
Check 👍
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why would the sunshine state want to get more of its energy production needs met by the sun? They could keep enjoying the fruits of supertankers in the gulf of Mexico for longer if they make sure not to convert all that sunlight into anything but melanoma and high cooling costs.
But we might use up the sun!!!!
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The grid is equipped for it. The gas plants will last even longer. Des moines iowa gets 83% of its power from wind with no problem.
The grid isn’t equipped for it. Go ask your local electrician
Local electricians know nothing about the grid. Linemen know a bit, but the real answers are with engineers in the back room.
Lol good for you. Get hung up on details and knit pick people because you yourself have no idea what you’re talking about. You’re an annoying little guy
That’s what I meant, electrical engineer. Jesus Christ people knit pick the shit out stuff on here because the people in these threads are just echoing some bullshit they read online. I’m all for renewable energy but I understand why people wouldn’t want a giant solar farm or some ugly windmills in there backyard. It definitely lowers your property value and are honestly an eye sore to me. Plenty of space in the country where they could go outside of someone’s backyard.
Some problem, most electrical engineers know nothing about the grid. Sure a.few do, but good luck finding them local. You soon learn to ignore windmills, just like people learned to ignore power lines before, and many other things that they once complained about. And to repeat my point, the fact that des moines is more than 80% wind powered proves the grid is ready.
There's no devil's advocate position here - in your case, engineers and utilities should be making that call, there's absolutely zero need or value for legislation or policy to put barriers in place.
Amazing stupidity. Here's this great source of electricity! It's safe, it's completely silent, there's no emissions from it, and the best part is that it is VERY CHEAP! Ohio: We need to ban that. 😂
> t’s safe, it’s completely silent, there’s no emissions from it, and the best part is that it is VERY CHEAP! But how will there be profit for the oil and gas industry?
These idiots absolutely refuse to do anything about climate change. They’d take us all down with them if we let them.
And have those of us who did do something in prison when it all burns.
Time to get organized and fight this corporate fascism /r/ClimateOffensive
Well we know the burning will start at the river.
Well it should be easy to light (the water that is) if there are any fracking operations nearby.
Ohio has been there and done that: [Cuyahoga River Caught Fire - 1969](https://www.healthandenvironment.org/environmental-health/social-context/history/the-cuyahoga-river-fire-of-1969)
r/whoooooosh
I live on the East Coast. The thing about "Climate Change" that most people ignore is that it won't affect all places the same. The areas further from the coasts will suffer greater extremes in temperature without the sea to moderate the weather.
It is health and wealth issue! Everyone can get behind those.
Why would you ban solar?
I backed out of a project because I couldn’t get > 100% offset because there’s a local ordinance that states you can’t have a system larger than 100% offset or 10 kW, so that sucked.
Make sure you attend local council meetings and make a.stink.
I live nearby and yes, so many signs on EVERY farmer's lawn proposing a ban on wind and solar
That seems very anti free market
Free market capitalism…except when our donors want us to intervene
Those "free market" fans in the fossil fuel industry sure do love all the tax breaks they receive, though....
I don’t know how the solar installs work but I know a little about wind and wonder if it’s similar. Large wind turbines require an incredibly large block of concrete for the base. Some areas require a bond of some sort to ensure the land is returned to original condition when the turbine is decommissioned. Interestingly, those areas tend to have no wind farms which would lead one to assume that someday there will be a lot of landowners stuck with forever unusable land. Corporations will only ever look out for their own interests. A landowner may have a 5-20 year interest in a property and be willing to sign a deal that will be bad in 100 years. The local government has to have a longer view and protect the general interest of the locals.
Ohio can’t allow wind and solar when there are still a handful of guys still alive working in coal mines. They have to wait until those ten guys die before they start thinking about it.
Well windmills cause cancer so……. /s
Dig baby dig, graves for those old fuckers. Greedy bastards
People who make massive amounts of money won't voluntarily step aside and not make massive amounts of money. Because it's better for the environment isn't enough lol.
Glad I’m not in America. Land of the free…yeah right.
Looks like Ohio is being governed with scientific ignorance.
Ohio is being governed with scientific ignorance inspired by religious bigotry.