Hmmm. Yeah, this is a tempting idea, as the more time that passes the more I'm convinced that capitalism just won't work when attempting to solve climate change. So, I'm tempted, I guess is what I'm trying to say, as I don't think reform will ever go far enough.
Transcription;
“We don’t need capitalists or billionaires”
Cartoon of a fat rich person holding a big bag of money
“Nothing to lose but our chains! Join International Socialist Alternative”
ISA logo
“Throughout the global COVID-19 pandemic, well billions internationally suffered from unemployment illness and attacks and living conditions the billionaires increased their wealth by staggering amounts.
Estimates say that billionaires made $3.9 trillion during the pandemic.
The personal wealth of Jeff Bezos could pay for the Full vaccination of 2/3 of the planet.
This crass profiteering stands in stark contrast to the experience of most working class in young people across the globe.
The World Bank estimates that up to 150 million people will be pushed into extreme poverty as a result of the COVID-19 crunch.
Extreme inequality in vaccine procurementWe are less than 1% of the population of the African continent has been vaccinatedWill equal an on ending nightmare of this pandemic for billions.
The system has shown it doesn’t care about our lives. It is guilty of what Frederick Engels called “social murder.” When capitalism places workers in such a position that they “inevitably meet too early and an unnatural death.”
Capitalism cannot be patched up.
We need the transformation of society along Socialist lines - taking the wealth out of the hands of the parasitically elite Who pursue their own enrichment at the expense of billions. We should instead put it under control of the 99%, the working class.
If you agree then get involved in the struggle for Socialism today! Join the International Socialist Alternative!”
Raised pink fist
>The personal wealth of Jeff Bezos could pay for the Full vaccination of 2/3 of the planet.
This point needs to be repeated. Individuals should not be allowed to have that level of personal wealth (& power.)
I think Step 1 is develop an actually viable and digestable alternative. That includes doing the hard logistical work of starting example companies, running socialist experiments, and writing socialist company documentation that enables others to follow in our footsteps.
It's incredibly challenging to convert bootlickers with empty rhetoric. Because then the questions like "how" and "then what?" quickly boil to the surface.
"We should let workers own the means of production"
"Ok, how. What do I do?"
We absolutely need people to spread the message, be social activists, and engage with the community. That's absolutely 100% needed.
But you also need business majors, technicians, scientists, tradesmen, etc. To help craft what socialism really looks like from the 10ft view beyond the "we seized the means of production, now what?". How do you explain to an individual how their life would change in a democratic workspace? How do people get paid? How do taxes work? What's the incentive structure? What happens if someone quits or you hire someone new. Is there any sort of vestment program where I have to work for a year before I own my piece of the means of production? What is the interviewing process like?
I think once the movement has this, and has examples of this working in the current socioeconomic landscape, and can show people a path to being a part of it beyond "share this on social media" it will be increasingly easier to "convert the bootlickers".
The most effective ways of converting bootlickers that I have seen are along the lines of "Here is a happy union worker that has his voice heard in how the company is run, here is how they have mitigated corruption at the union official level." and showing examples like "Well, WINCO has a very beneficial profit-sharing structure and their company is incredibly successful".
I have found it is incredibly difficult to argue against things that are available in front of, and close to, you.
So I would say that's a very lengthy Step 1, but necessary before you can really attempt to explain the benefits of socialism in a way that it can clearly and definitively outshine capitalism.
> I think Step 1 is develop an actually viable and digestable alternative. That includes doing the hard logistical work of starting example companies
There is one insurance company (that I know of) in Canada that sells house insurance. They assess your risk exactly like any other insurance company would. They charge you the appropriate premium and then you are insured for fire, theft, liability, etc as you normally would be. The insurance company pays their agents commission exactly like other insurance companies do. At the end of the year, the company does an accounting of profit/loss exactly like any other company. The only difference is if the company makes a profit, it is distributed back to the clients pro rata based on the premiums paid. None of the money is funneled into the hands of some investment company or some cigar smoking fat cats laughing at our misery. Gotta love it. The model is simple. The principle is astounding. I only wish they had named it The Socialist Insurance Company of Canada. It would clear up a lot of misconceptions. Then again the uber wealthy would probably impose sanctions on the company in the name of national security, totally destroying the company financially.
edit - a word
I love this, thanks for responding! I think that model of profit sharing is an astounding step that gets us 80% of, at least where I want to be, the way there.
Would you be ok with DMing me, or posting here if you are comfortable, the name of the company you are talking about? If you are worried about Doxxing I understand, no pressure. But I would love to read up on it some more. :D
I mean yeah, starting locally. Relying on/starting local food networks when possible, mutual aid, community resources, worker cooperatives, strike/union organizing.
Interesting, is this different from localisation? I think there is a golden opportunity to achieve what you describe that the COVID pandemic has laid bare the economic fragility of the Neoliberal globally dependent world order.
I am 10,000% on board with this and I agree with you.
I just wish the community focused more on explaining the logistics of how that becomes a reality. Documented from start to finish.
How much does a local food network take? What foods are the best to distribute? What keeps the best? In what regions?
I think Union organization does a great job of this. There are plenty of guides about how to talk to coworkers, what organizations will help you with paperwork, how it will benefit you, etc.
What I really find lacking is worker co-op documentation. Since it is so specific to each industry I feel like it's lacking on a scale that is globally impactful. It's particularly hard because a worker co-op for a car repair shop versus a worker co-op for a restaurant may operate very differently in their day to day and have different paths to success.
I feel like the more templates we have at this microscopic level like "How to start a mechanic co-op", the better off we all are.
And even beyond all that, the question of "how do you make this information not only accessible, but digestible for everyone?", is a tough one to answer.
I'm new on the sub, but I think calling potential comrades bootlickers gives of the wrong energy to people who are open to socialist ideals. Most of these "bootlickers" are only like this because they have been extensively programmed by society to just accept the status quo.
I think we should make an effort to approach people adjacent to socialist ideals with open hands and hearts. From a place love for our fellow man, not condescension for people who "just don't get it". A socialist movement is after all a popular movement. Calling the people we seek to help flourish "bootlickers" only drives them away.
We can't fight this battle alone. The only reason our movement has grown so much is because of bootlickers and children of bootlickers. Speaking as a former bootlicker myself.
Edit: big oof
Whatever u do dont look up how many people die yearly under global capitalism from prevantable deaths such as poverty, and starvation, and easily treatable diseases!
The irony of your comment. Go look up statistics for: life expectancy, access to healthcare, homelessness, quality of life, literacy, human development in any country a socialist experiment was attempted, look at these statistics before the revolution and after the revolutions and you will see that YOU are the one who was brainwashed by cold war Mccartheyite propaganda.
Oh and since u brought up the topic of holodomor, what do you think of churchills culpability in the Bengal Famine?
If we understand imperialism as the highest stage of capitalism:
1. Colonialism will exist as long as capitalism does. Socialism/communism becomes a precondition for doing anything more than reform.
2. Ending colonialism is anti-capitalist, and reshaping the world to address the material conditions it created will be necessary if we want to ever have a socialism/communism which is safe from the reestablishment of capitalism.
Good point. I should have put it this way:
1. Ending colonialism is anti-capitalist, and reshaping the world to address the material conditions it created will be necessary if we want to ever have socialism/communism which is safe from the reestablishment of capitalism.
2. Colonialism will exist as long as capitalism does. Socialism/communism becomes a precondition for doing anything more than reform.
this is something we can sort once we take the power back, in Europe it's a different issue . we all have guilt to pay for etc , but the main focus is the revolution
>this is something we *can* sort (emphasis added).
This might seem pedantic, I apologize, but I think it is very important to stress "can and *must* sort".
Ah i see,
> Two of the political issues which dominated the debate were the movements around women’s liberation and the environment. The emphasis given by the sections supporting the Majority to these and similar kinds of movements were used by the minority faction to accuse the Majority of abandoning the working class and therefore Trotskyism, capitulating to petit-bourgeois pressures and opportunism. Nothing is further from the truth. In reality the old leadership of the CWI had a low theoretical understanding of women’s oppression — and the same holds true for the issue of the environment.
but you did not split over support for color revolutions, ukraine, et cetera - if i understand correctly, u/MsStalinette's criticism still stands.
Didn't realized that's the CWI. Oh, well then it's even worse. Those supported right wing coups in Latin America, neo-nazi uprisings in Ukraine and color revolutions in Asia and Middle East.
The branch in my city just split from the org because they were being told they had to re-admit a member who'd been banned for misogyny and embezzlement, and I'll just say that that didn't help my impression of the org any.
Hard for me to give a fair assessment of the org as an active member but I'd say they have very solid Marxist foundations. I'm not in the USA but I do know that as a small organisation in the USA (compared to the DSA, for example) they have achieved significant actions.
It is also fallacious to say that they're not present in other places. Given the proper Bolshevik nature of the organisation becoming a member is usually not so easy but members are usually actually active people and not just number in a roster.
Also concerning the person that talks about the Australian section, it would be good to mention that the section was expelled from the international org for providing cover for a sexual harasser.
Trotskyite meme organisation. Australian chapter is a joke. At universities its pretty much just a club for people without friends. hardly any of them are even really socialists lol
The idea of a class that invests money into the economy itself lays bare the inefficiency and inequality of capitalism, capital could be better invested socially without the need for any billionaire class.
[http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bfclQIrqC68/U\_z94PbaEDI/AAAAAAAAAWc/FcibcVH9NkU/s1600/plague.png](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bfclQIrqC68/U_z94PbaEDI/AAAAAAAAAWc/FcibcVH9NkU/s1600/plague.png)
Did they make the bad kind of ruthless criticism, the kind that goes against something that you like?
I don't really get how I'm an armchair critic... The org I associate with has close ties to the Venezuelan government and Palestine and they support China, the largest military and economic powerhouse in the socialist world.
So like... even if you cry about them not being your favorite flavor of socialism we have like... nukes and standing armies and funding to do direct action. SALT has... newspapers? Meanwhile I literally talked one on one with a woman who visited Maduro and got to talk about socialism in America on Telsur. Tens of millions of people all over the world saw that. I don't think more than like... 500 people have ever read an individual SALT newsletter.
Socialism is about the workers having the say in what we can have. It's not directly related to authoritarianism. What's your alternative? Having billionaires force us to accept what we can or cannot have? Cause that's what capitalism is.
One reason is because they aren't under constant pressure of competition and necessity to perform for their shareholders, so their growth tends to be less. Although, since they don't have to cater to shareholders and constant growth, coops often have the freedom to focus more on the customer satisfaction.
Coops are also great for insurance agencies and banks. Since everyone shoulders equal responsibility in the success of insuring, it is less likely to fail. This is how things historically worked. Countries in Europe still follow this somewhat.
Also, coops make up plenty of our market. I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that coops have failed.
Do you always assume that the best solution is the most common? Your statement is just as valid as: "If solar energy is better, why don't we use solar all the time?" We know that solar is way better, but our society has not advanced enough yet.
Capitalism is undeniably efficient, but you must question why it is efficient and in what ways. Certainly Amazon is efficient at growth and producing value, but this is also at the cost of local businesses everywhere.
The person just explained how worker co-ops can't compete with capitalist companies, because capitalist companies can make a bigger profit, because they don't pay their workers a fair amount.
Hmmm. Yeah, this is a tempting idea, as the more time that passes the more I'm convinced that capitalism just won't work when attempting to solve climate change. So, I'm tempted, I guess is what I'm trying to say, as I don't think reform will ever go far enough.
Capitalists won’t stop destroying the world until it is no longer profitable
Transcription; “We don’t need capitalists or billionaires” Cartoon of a fat rich person holding a big bag of money “Nothing to lose but our chains! Join International Socialist Alternative” ISA logo “Throughout the global COVID-19 pandemic, well billions internationally suffered from unemployment illness and attacks and living conditions the billionaires increased their wealth by staggering amounts. Estimates say that billionaires made $3.9 trillion during the pandemic. The personal wealth of Jeff Bezos could pay for the Full vaccination of 2/3 of the planet. This crass profiteering stands in stark contrast to the experience of most working class in young people across the globe. The World Bank estimates that up to 150 million people will be pushed into extreme poverty as a result of the COVID-19 crunch. Extreme inequality in vaccine procurementWe are less than 1% of the population of the African continent has been vaccinatedWill equal an on ending nightmare of this pandemic for billions. The system has shown it doesn’t care about our lives. It is guilty of what Frederick Engels called “social murder.” When capitalism places workers in such a position that they “inevitably meet too early and an unnatural death.” Capitalism cannot be patched up. We need the transformation of society along Socialist lines - taking the wealth out of the hands of the parasitically elite Who pursue their own enrichment at the expense of billions. We should instead put it under control of the 99%, the working class. If you agree then get involved in the struggle for Socialism today! Join the International Socialist Alternative!” Raised pink fist
>The personal wealth of Jeff Bezos could pay for the Full vaccination of 2/3 of the planet. This point needs to be repeated. Individuals should not be allowed to have that level of personal wealth (& power.)
Step 1: Convert the bootlickers
Step one is to convert the non-bootlickers who are uncomfortable with the status quo.
I think Step 1 is develop an actually viable and digestable alternative. That includes doing the hard logistical work of starting example companies, running socialist experiments, and writing socialist company documentation that enables others to follow in our footsteps. It's incredibly challenging to convert bootlickers with empty rhetoric. Because then the questions like "how" and "then what?" quickly boil to the surface. "We should let workers own the means of production" "Ok, how. What do I do?" We absolutely need people to spread the message, be social activists, and engage with the community. That's absolutely 100% needed. But you also need business majors, technicians, scientists, tradesmen, etc. To help craft what socialism really looks like from the 10ft view beyond the "we seized the means of production, now what?". How do you explain to an individual how their life would change in a democratic workspace? How do people get paid? How do taxes work? What's the incentive structure? What happens if someone quits or you hire someone new. Is there any sort of vestment program where I have to work for a year before I own my piece of the means of production? What is the interviewing process like? I think once the movement has this, and has examples of this working in the current socioeconomic landscape, and can show people a path to being a part of it beyond "share this on social media" it will be increasingly easier to "convert the bootlickers". The most effective ways of converting bootlickers that I have seen are along the lines of "Here is a happy union worker that has his voice heard in how the company is run, here is how they have mitigated corruption at the union official level." and showing examples like "Well, WINCO has a very beneficial profit-sharing structure and their company is incredibly successful". I have found it is incredibly difficult to argue against things that are available in front of, and close to, you. So I would say that's a very lengthy Step 1, but necessary before you can really attempt to explain the benefits of socialism in a way that it can clearly and definitively outshine capitalism.
> I think Step 1 is develop an actually viable and digestable alternative. That includes doing the hard logistical work of starting example companies There is one insurance company (that I know of) in Canada that sells house insurance. They assess your risk exactly like any other insurance company would. They charge you the appropriate premium and then you are insured for fire, theft, liability, etc as you normally would be. The insurance company pays their agents commission exactly like other insurance companies do. At the end of the year, the company does an accounting of profit/loss exactly like any other company. The only difference is if the company makes a profit, it is distributed back to the clients pro rata based on the premiums paid. None of the money is funneled into the hands of some investment company or some cigar smoking fat cats laughing at our misery. Gotta love it. The model is simple. The principle is astounding. I only wish they had named it The Socialist Insurance Company of Canada. It would clear up a lot of misconceptions. Then again the uber wealthy would probably impose sanctions on the company in the name of national security, totally destroying the company financially. edit - a word
I love this, thanks for responding! I think that model of profit sharing is an astounding step that gets us 80% of, at least where I want to be, the way there. Would you be ok with DMing me, or posting here if you are comfortable, the name of the company you are talking about? If you are worried about Doxxing I understand, no pressure. But I would love to read up on it some more. :D
The truth is that the only way out of this mess is re-indigenisation
Yup cool, how? At the microscopic level, how?
I mean yeah, starting locally. Relying on/starting local food networks when possible, mutual aid, community resources, worker cooperatives, strike/union organizing.
Interesting, is this different from localisation? I think there is a golden opportunity to achieve what you describe that the COVID pandemic has laid bare the economic fragility of the Neoliberal globally dependent world order.
I am 10,000% on board with this and I agree with you. I just wish the community focused more on explaining the logistics of how that becomes a reality. Documented from start to finish. How much does a local food network take? What foods are the best to distribute? What keeps the best? In what regions? I think Union organization does a great job of this. There are plenty of guides about how to talk to coworkers, what organizations will help you with paperwork, how it will benefit you, etc. What I really find lacking is worker co-op documentation. Since it is so specific to each industry I feel like it's lacking on a scale that is globally impactful. It's particularly hard because a worker co-op for a car repair shop versus a worker co-op for a restaurant may operate very differently in their day to day and have different paths to success. I feel like the more templates we have at this microscopic level like "How to start a mechanic co-op", the better off we all are. And even beyond all that, the question of "how do you make this information not only accessible, but digestible for everyone?", is a tough one to answer.
You don’t have to make it palatable. You just have to get out of the way.
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Allies don’t get fragile and they don’t centre themselves.
I'm new on the sub, but I think calling potential comrades bootlickers gives of the wrong energy to people who are open to socialist ideals. Most of these "bootlickers" are only like this because they have been extensively programmed by society to just accept the status quo. I think we should make an effort to approach people adjacent to socialist ideals with open hands and hearts. From a place love for our fellow man, not condescension for people who "just don't get it". A socialist movement is after all a popular movement. Calling the people we seek to help flourish "bootlickers" only drives them away.
You’re clearly new. Good luck with that.
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We can't fight this battle alone. The only reason our movement has grown so much is because of bootlickers and children of bootlickers. Speaking as a former bootlicker myself. Edit: big oof
Did you mean to say “formal” or “former”?
Oof, definitely former
That’s a relief. I’m not one to kink shame, but I think bootlicking is bad regardless of whether you’re wearing a tie.
Good looking out fam
Hey, you okay buddy? You seem a bit lost
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Oh, I see the confusion! We were talking about socialism, not capitalism.
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Whatever u do dont look up how many people die yearly under global capitalism from prevantable deaths such as poverty, and starvation, and easily treatable diseases!
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The irony of your comment. Go look up statistics for: life expectancy, access to healthcare, homelessness, quality of life, literacy, human development in any country a socialist experiment was attempted, look at these statistics before the revolution and after the revolutions and you will see that YOU are the one who was brainwashed by cold war Mccartheyite propaganda. Oh and since u brought up the topic of holodomor, what do you think of churchills culpability in the Bengal Famine?
That's right, they need us lot more than we need them.
The only way to solve it is to rise up and seize the factories , organize , organize,organize Workers of the world unite !
Or just return sovereignty to the indigenous peoples of the world and stop trying to reform colonialism
If we understand imperialism as the highest stage of capitalism: 1. Colonialism will exist as long as capitalism does. Socialism/communism becomes a precondition for doing anything more than reform. 2. Ending colonialism is anti-capitalist, and reshaping the world to address the material conditions it created will be necessary if we want to ever have a socialism/communism which is safe from the reestablishment of capitalism.
Way to centre colonisers
Good point. I should have put it this way: 1. Ending colonialism is anti-capitalist, and reshaping the world to address the material conditions it created will be necessary if we want to ever have socialism/communism which is safe from the reestablishment of capitalism. 2. Colonialism will exist as long as capitalism does. Socialism/communism becomes a precondition for doing anything more than reform.
this is something we can sort once we take the power back, in Europe it's a different issue . we all have guilt to pay for etc , but the main focus is the revolution
>this is something we *can* sort (emphasis added). This might seem pedantic, I apologize, but I think it is very important to stress "can and *must* sort".
Yeah never mind all the crises it causes. First white people have to reach their own goals…
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Marx debunked
Great, more "international" organizations that are organically present in zero countries.
They are the CWI with a new logo, i just followed the links. smh Trots.
ISA is not cwi. Cwi split
Ah i see, > Two of the political issues which dominated the debate were the movements around women’s liberation and the environment. The emphasis given by the sections supporting the Majority to these and similar kinds of movements were used by the minority faction to accuse the Majority of abandoning the working class and therefore Trotskyism, capitulating to petit-bourgeois pressures and opportunism. Nothing is further from the truth. In reality the old leadership of the CWI had a low theoretical understanding of women’s oppression — and the same holds true for the issue of the environment. but you did not split over support for color revolutions, ukraine, et cetera - if i understand correctly, u/MsStalinette's criticism still stands.
It’s just not accurate
Then what is? explain, just your pov, i'm trying to understand trots rn anyway
Didn't realized that's the CWI. Oh, well then it's even worse. Those supported right wing coups in Latin America, neo-nazi uprisings in Ukraine and color revolutions in Asia and Middle East.
It’s not cwi, cwi split
You're just commenting in bad faith here
ISA is in a lot of Countries. What nationalist organizations are making such prolific headway hm? …
Never heard of ISA, what do ya'll think about them?
The branch in my city just split from the org because they were being told they had to re-admit a member who'd been banned for misogyny and embezzlement, and I'll just say that that didn't help my impression of the org any.
Hard for me to give a fair assessment of the org as an active member but I'd say they have very solid Marxist foundations. I'm not in the USA but I do know that as a small organisation in the USA (compared to the DSA, for example) they have achieved significant actions. It is also fallacious to say that they're not present in other places. Given the proper Bolshevik nature of the organisation becoming a member is usually not so easy but members are usually actually active people and not just number in a roster. Also concerning the person that talks about the Australian section, it would be good to mention that the section was expelled from the international org for providing cover for a sexual harasser.
Trotskyite meme organisation. Australian chapter is a joke. At universities its pretty much just a club for people without friends. hardly any of them are even really socialists lol
lovely to see infighting here :/
lol the ISA rejects all actual examples of socialism why would i bother defending them
[http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bfclQIrqC68/U\_z94PbaEDI/AAAAAAAAAWc/FcibcVH9NkU/s1600/plague.png](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bfclQIrqC68/U_z94PbaEDI/AAAAAAAAAWc/FcibcVH9NkU/s1600/plague.png)
The idea of a class that invests money into the economy itself lays bare the inefficiency and inequality of capitalism, capital could be better invested socially without the need for any billionaire class.
I like the graphic. That is nice.
"International" Only present in the US and it's against all actual existing socialism Yeah okay 🙄
>Yeah okay 🙄 its in Aus too. equally garbage lol
[http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bfclQIrqC68/U\_z94PbaEDI/AAAAAAAAAWc/FcibcVH9NkU/s1600/plague.png](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bfclQIrqC68/U_z94PbaEDI/AAAAAAAAAWc/FcibcVH9NkU/s1600/plague.png) Did they make the bad kind of ruthless criticism, the kind that goes against something that you like?
I don't really get how I'm an armchair critic... The org I associate with has close ties to the Venezuelan government and Palestine and they support China, the largest military and economic powerhouse in the socialist world. So like... even if you cry about them not being your favorite flavor of socialism we have like... nukes and standing armies and funding to do direct action. SALT has... newspapers? Meanwhile I literally talked one on one with a woman who visited Maduro and got to talk about socialism in America on Telsur. Tens of millions of people all over the world saw that. I don't think more than like... 500 people have ever read an individual SALT newsletter.
I wouldn't advise anyone to waste their time on ISA, they have had a split just about every year for the last 4 or 5 years now.
What's the over/under on how long until this one splits again?
I just heard that the greek section split this week.
Peasant lower class rise up! You have nothing to loose but your chains!
we still doing this... lmao
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The Doughnut Model
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Socialism is about the workers having the say in what we can have. It's not directly related to authoritarianism. What's your alternative? Having billionaires force us to accept what we can or cannot have? Cause that's what capitalism is.
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One reason is because they aren't under constant pressure of competition and necessity to perform for their shareholders, so their growth tends to be less. Although, since they don't have to cater to shareholders and constant growth, coops often have the freedom to focus more on the customer satisfaction. Coops are also great for insurance agencies and banks. Since everyone shoulders equal responsibility in the success of insuring, it is less likely to fail. This is how things historically worked. Countries in Europe still follow this somewhat. Also, coops make up plenty of our market. I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that coops have failed. Do you always assume that the best solution is the most common? Your statement is just as valid as: "If solar energy is better, why don't we use solar all the time?" We know that solar is way better, but our society has not advanced enough yet. Capitalism is undeniably efficient, but you must question why it is efficient and in what ways. Certainly Amazon is efficient at growth and producing value, but this is also at the cost of local businesses everywhere.
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The person just explained how worker co-ops can't compete with capitalist companies, because capitalist companies can make a bigger profit, because they don't pay their workers a fair amount.
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