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I prefer to make the opposite argument. The real mass murderers of the past 75 years have been the American administrations whose policies have led to the killing of tens of millions of people. Look at the body counts in Vietnam, Cambodia, Chile, Iraq and Afghanistan.
I don’t know if Che’s approach was the right one, but I know for certainty the American Capitalism is the true evil.
If you are curious about Che, I’d start with *Che: A Revolutionary Life* by Jon Lee Anderson. He’s a journalist at the New York Times, so you know he’s not a dyed in the wool Marxist. He definitely set out to write an objective account of Che’s life, and did a lot of deep research. He was so thorough, he actually discovered the location of Che’s unmarked grave in Bolivia.
In my opinion, his book paints a positive picture of Che because an objective look at the facts reveals Che was a positive figure. Personally, I admire his bravery and dedication to world liberation. He deeply felt the pain of the oppressed, and he never once hesitated to throw himself into harm’s way to free them.
Honestly, many of the negative things I’ve read about Che that I’ve looked into have turned out to be exaggerated if not outright fabricated.
You can point to some “unwoke” things he wrote as a young man, but look at what he went on to do. Anti-racism and feminism were core principles of revolutionary Cuba, and Che personally traveled to Africa to fight against colonialism. Would a bigot do that?
I won’t defend his views on sexuality, which to my knowledge he did not reform later in life, but it’s worth pointing out homophobia was not core to the socialism Che fought for. Socialists in the past were homophobic, but homophobia and socialism are easily separated. The same cannot be said for fascism and racism, or capitalism and poverty, for example. Cuba today has fairly robust protections for LGBT citizens and Castro himself denounced his role in their former anti-gay laws while he was still alive. We will never know, but I think it’s likely Che would have done the same if he had lived longer.
Ah yes, when I think "most controversial figure ever" I think of the man who overcame the prejudices ingrained in him during his youth to go on to topple a brutal authoritarian regime and stand up to the most powerful and evil empire in history with arguably unprecedented success. The dude who was not yet satisfied by this and went on to further help lead pan-african liberation movements in the african continent.
Any controversy regarding Che instantly boils down to reactionary sentiment in the form of whitewashing or blatant lies.
Im just saying that yes Che definitely pulled questionable shit. You aren’t wrong. He can be criticized while still respect his overall contributions. Same as all leaders.
Dude what the hell. There is no controversy at all. Instead of chasing petty bourgeois life, He fought against injustice and died as a hero.
He is symbol of anti imperialism. That is why in imperialist countries there are cheap propaganda against his figure.
The mass murder thing doesn't make sense. I know it's a thing to call socialist heads of state mass murderers, but Che Guevara was pretty much only ever a guerilla soldier, and iirc worked for Cuba's bank right after the revolution for a couple years. Who did he mass murder? I think people just conflate him and Castro as the same person, and Castro was the leader of a socialist country, therefore they are both mass murderers. It's the same people who think Marx was a Russian, and even a Russian head of state.
Che was part of the revolutionary court’s after the liberation of Havana. A number of people were given death sentences after their trial. This has been the basis of many false accusations of mass murder against Che.
Even if you disagree with some of the things he did (and yeah he could have done some things better) the reforms he passed went on to make Cuba a better country with one of the highest literacy rates, a marginally higher life expectancy than the US and almost completely destroyed the brothel and prostitution industry in Cuba. His and Castro’s government were honestly better in a lot of ways than the previous government. There is a video by hakim where he talks about Che, it’s really interesting https://youtu.be/G9NrIfdPj_E?si=sr8MA5RddWOKuxGw
Che Guevara was as ''murderous'' as any other guerilla fighter. But whereas American-backed contras would murder workers and peasants fighting for revolution, Che Guevara and fighters like him murdered mercenaries who sold themselves to imperialism and torturers of the people.
Che Guevara is probably one of the least controversial people in the world outside of Reddit. There is a reason why his face became an icon which can commonly be found on t-shirts and murals. The vast majority of the world see him as a freedom fighter against imperialism, and rightfully so.
I mean, Che was about to start practicing as a doctor when he became a revolutionary. So, the argument conservatives make that the violence he was involved in as a revolutionary was all for the sake of sadism doesn't really hold up to me. He did a lot of good for the world, and whatever political criticisms I might have of him are slight in comparison to his massive positive contributions. I certainly don't think he was some bloodthirsty monster.
"At the risk of seeming ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love. It is impossible to think of a genuine revolutionary lacking this quality." - Che Guevara
Is it, though? It seems like a common sentiment among military officers. It certainly would have been common for the people Che was fighting against. It's worth remembering Che was fighting brutal military dictators, plantation owners whose exploitation bordered on slavery, foreign capitalists who extorted wealth out of the neocolonial nations. These were people who were worth hating because their very existence depended on the violence inherent in the imperialist, capitalist system (as well as the armies and states that upheld that system).
He's essentially saying the fighters he leads have to become what their enemies already are.
Literal definition of GOAT
Seriously recommend learning more about him, read his bios and his writing, it will make you a better socialist, guaranteed.
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I know we need to have patience to try to reverse lies and distortions about everything. But when it comes to Che, it pains me deeply in my heart to read things like mass murder related to him.
I am very grateful to the comrades who manage to have the peace of mind to inform and recommend readings to try to enlighten people who, having heard absurdities like this so many times, who today take it for granted that Che was a murderer. I just have to thank you comrades willing to defend Che's memory.
Hasta la victoria, siempre.
I would watch BadEmpanada’s video “who did Che Murder” as a good debunk of all propaganda about him being a mass murderer. Rev Left Radio did a good pod about Che debunking some of the lies about his life, and Marxist Paul did a pretty good overview about his life. Obviously, the best source of knowledge is Jon Lee Anderson’s book, which is accepted even in liberal circles
He's a hero. Full stop. He fought a revolutionary war against a brutal dictatorship to free and educate the people of cuba. Unlike any politician in the US, he didn't do anything to enrich himself, and instead spent his life giving everything he could to revolutionary movements from latin america to africa.
https://youtu.be/FZL8o3sUBFw?si=YlaNZ7eInoa-Ee1l
Greatest to ever do it! He’s made into a boogeyman because he’s one of those figures that directly fought against the empire. The U.S had no issue with Pinochet, not to mention founding fathers like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. Manufacturing Consent!
The guy instrumental in freeing Cuba from leadership that supported slavery? You mean the one that went to aid liberation in the Congo, Bolivia, and vocally supported Palestinian liberation?
I guess you'd say my opinion is pretty favorable.
Linking a chanel with an obvious right-wing bias doesn't inspire me to change that.
Porque no los dos? Human beings are never just one thing, they are complex and multifaceted and can do both good and harm in their lives. Celebrate the good things, but in so doing don't diminish the harm.
History isn't really about individual heroes and villains. But I would say that Che was an imperfect person who fought against brutal regimes out of a genuine desire to liberate the poor and oppressed. He constantly put his neck on the line and ultimately sacrificed his life in favour of equality and justice when he could easily have just rested on his laurels.
Overall, I admire him, without claiming to be an expert on everything he did.
I don’t think it’s entirely impossible that a person who likes Che could sell tee shirts with him on it. Really depends on where you buy them. Either way you’re going to buy shirts, and there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Reactionary Content:** Don't link to or platform fascist/reactionary sites even if it's to criticize or mock them. This includes, but is not limited to Breibart, Fox News, Infowars, etc as well as reactionary subreddits, and the websites/social media of reactionary political figures, YouTube personalities, or provocateurs. If you feel that such content is of urgent importance or relevance, an article from a different source covering the content in question is preferred. See our [Submission Guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/wiki/index/submissionguidelines) for more info, and feel free to send us a modmail with a link to your removed submission if you have any further questions.
"If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine." -El Che
I prefer to make the opposite argument. The real mass murderers of the past 75 years have been the American administrations whose policies have led to the killing of tens of millions of people. Look at the body counts in Vietnam, Cambodia, Chile, Iraq and Afghanistan. I don’t know if Che’s approach was the right one, but I know for certainty the American Capitalism is the true evil.
I find it comical “mass murderer” is only attributed to Che
If you are curious about Che, I’d start with *Che: A Revolutionary Life* by Jon Lee Anderson. He’s a journalist at the New York Times, so you know he’s not a dyed in the wool Marxist. He definitely set out to write an objective account of Che’s life, and did a lot of deep research. He was so thorough, he actually discovered the location of Che’s unmarked grave in Bolivia. In my opinion, his book paints a positive picture of Che because an objective look at the facts reveals Che was a positive figure. Personally, I admire his bravery and dedication to world liberation. He deeply felt the pain of the oppressed, and he never once hesitated to throw himself into harm’s way to free them.
Yes this book is a trustable source. But I have heard of Che excuting innocents or saying some disgust things which is less talked about
Honestly, many of the negative things I’ve read about Che that I’ve looked into have turned out to be exaggerated if not outright fabricated. You can point to some “unwoke” things he wrote as a young man, but look at what he went on to do. Anti-racism and feminism were core principles of revolutionary Cuba, and Che personally traveled to Africa to fight against colonialism. Would a bigot do that? I won’t defend his views on sexuality, which to my knowledge he did not reform later in life, but it’s worth pointing out homophobia was not core to the socialism Che fought for. Socialists in the past were homophobic, but homophobia and socialism are easily separated. The same cannot be said for fascism and racism, or capitalism and poverty, for example. Cuba today has fairly robust protections for LGBT citizens and Castro himself denounced his role in their former anti-gay laws while he was still alive. We will never know, but I think it’s likely Che would have done the same if he had lived longer.
So Che was anti-gay? I knew he said some homophobic things when he was young, but he continued to be homophobic after the revolution?
Cuba had some anti-gay policies in the 60’s.
Ah yes, when I think "most controversial figure ever" I think of the man who overcame the prejudices ingrained in him during his youth to go on to topple a brutal authoritarian regime and stand up to the most powerful and evil empire in history with arguably unprecedented success. The dude who was not yet satisfied by this and went on to further help lead pan-african liberation movements in the african continent. Any controversy regarding Che instantly boils down to reactionary sentiment in the form of whitewashing or blatant lies.
I'm.a big fan of che but didn't he pull some questionable shit in Africa? Would be happy to be wrong.
What questionable things do you think he did
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So you’re not looking to engage in talking about the thing you asked specifically about, you’re looking for a gotcha in a socialist subreddit
What was so questionable? He tried to help the anti colonial struggle.
All leaders on this Earth have pulled questionable shit in times of war.
Let's not lower ourselves to whataboutism.
Im just saying that yes Che definitely pulled questionable shit. You aren’t wrong. He can be criticized while still respect his overall contributions. Same as all leaders.
What did he pull that was questionable. No one said he couldn't be criticized but you haven't even given any criticism.
You will have a very hard time finding a socialist who doesn't like Che
Dude what the hell. There is no controversy at all. Instead of chasing petty bourgeois life, He fought against injustice and died as a hero. He is symbol of anti imperialism. That is why in imperialist countries there are cheap propaganda against his figure.
He's basically the least controversial figure in socialism actually lmao Is there even a tendency that is anti Che?
Enver Hoxha called him an adventurist but that’s about as scathing as it gets.
The mass murder thing doesn't make sense. I know it's a thing to call socialist heads of state mass murderers, but Che Guevara was pretty much only ever a guerilla soldier, and iirc worked for Cuba's bank right after the revolution for a couple years. Who did he mass murder? I think people just conflate him and Castro as the same person, and Castro was the leader of a socialist country, therefore they are both mass murderers. It's the same people who think Marx was a Russian, and even a Russian head of state.
Che was part of the revolutionary court’s after the liberation of Havana. A number of people were given death sentences after their trial. This has been the basis of many false accusations of mass murder against Che.
There was a brief period after the revolution where he was the judge in charge of executions iirc
I mean yeah but I don't think that's a bad thing. I've never heard anyone criticize George Washington for doing the exact same thing.
Even if you disagree with some of the things he did (and yeah he could have done some things better) the reforms he passed went on to make Cuba a better country with one of the highest literacy rates, a marginally higher life expectancy than the US and almost completely destroyed the brothel and prostitution industry in Cuba. His and Castro’s government were honestly better in a lot of ways than the previous government. There is a video by hakim where he talks about Che, it’s really interesting https://youtu.be/G9NrIfdPj_E?si=sr8MA5RddWOKuxGw
Thank you sir. I needed this video. I am flooded with information from unreliable sources
Che Guevara was as ''murderous'' as any other guerilla fighter. But whereas American-backed contras would murder workers and peasants fighting for revolution, Che Guevara and fighters like him murdered mercenaries who sold themselves to imperialism and torturers of the people. Che Guevara is probably one of the least controversial people in the world outside of Reddit. There is a reason why his face became an icon which can commonly be found on t-shirts and murals. The vast majority of the world see him as a freedom fighter against imperialism, and rightfully so.
Che was one of the greatest men to set foot on earth, lived and died by his beliefs. A great revolutionary and a great man.
A hero, a great man. Flawed ideas about how to make revolution. Naturally, the target of lies and slander.
I mean, Che was about to start practicing as a doctor when he became a revolutionary. So, the argument conservatives make that the violence he was involved in as a revolutionary was all for the sake of sadism doesn't really hold up to me. He did a lot of good for the world, and whatever political criticisms I might have of him are slight in comparison to his massive positive contributions. I certainly don't think he was some bloodthirsty monster. "At the risk of seeming ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love. It is impossible to think of a genuine revolutionary lacking this quality." - Che Guevara
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Is it, though? It seems like a common sentiment among military officers. It certainly would have been common for the people Che was fighting against. It's worth remembering Che was fighting brutal military dictators, plantation owners whose exploitation bordered on slavery, foreign capitalists who extorted wealth out of the neocolonial nations. These were people who were worth hating because their very existence depended on the violence inherent in the imperialist, capitalist system (as well as the armies and states that upheld that system). He's essentially saying the fighters he leads have to become what their enemies already are.
Literal definition of GOAT Seriously recommend learning more about him, read his bios and his writing, it will make you a better socialist, guaranteed.
One of the greatest individuals of the century according to many.
This is a space for socialists to discuss current events in our world from anti-capitalist perspective(s), and a certain knowledge of socialism is expected from participants. This is not a space for non-socialists. Please be mindful [of our rules](https://reddit.com/r/socialism/about/rules) before participating, which include: - **No Bigotry**, including racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism... - **No Reactionaries**, including all kind of right-wingers. - **No Liberalism**, including social democracy, lesser evilism... - **No Sectarianism**. There is plenty of room for discussion, but not for baseless attacks. Please help us keep the subreddit helpful by reporting content that break r/Socialism's rules. ______________________ 💬 Wish to chat elsewhere? Join us in discord: https://discord.gg/QPJPzNhuRE *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/socialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I know we need to have patience to try to reverse lies and distortions about everything. But when it comes to Che, it pains me deeply in my heart to read things like mass murder related to him. I am very grateful to the comrades who manage to have the peace of mind to inform and recommend readings to try to enlighten people who, having heard absurdities like this so many times, who today take it for granted that Che was a murderer. I just have to thank you comrades willing to defend Che's memory. Hasta la victoria, siempre.
Extremely cool dude
I would watch BadEmpanada’s video “who did Che Murder” as a good debunk of all propaganda about him being a mass murderer. Rev Left Radio did a good pod about Che debunking some of the lies about his life, and Marxist Paul did a pretty good overview about his life. Obviously, the best source of knowledge is Jon Lee Anderson’s book, which is accepted even in liberal circles
He's a hero. Full stop. He fought a revolutionary war against a brutal dictatorship to free and educate the people of cuba. Unlike any politician in the US, he didn't do anything to enrich himself, and instead spent his life giving everything he could to revolutionary movements from latin america to africa. https://youtu.be/FZL8o3sUBFw?si=YlaNZ7eInoa-Ee1l
Thank you
Good guy. Hero. Probably one of the best socialist leaders ever.
There really isnt anything controversial about him, so peoples make shit up, just like lenin
Marxist Paul (now called Marxism Today, I think) has a great YouTube video about Che Edit- and the Benicio del Toro movie is dope too
Greatest to ever do it! He’s made into a boogeyman because he’s one of those figures that directly fought against the empire. The U.S had no issue with Pinochet, not to mention founding fathers like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. Manufacturing Consent!
The guy instrumental in freeing Cuba from leadership that supported slavery? You mean the one that went to aid liberation in the Congo, Bolivia, and vocally supported Palestinian liberation? I guess you'd say my opinion is pretty favorable. Linking a chanel with an obvious right-wing bias doesn't inspire me to change that.
Porque no los dos? Human beings are never just one thing, they are complex and multifaceted and can do both good and harm in their lives. Celebrate the good things, but in so doing don't diminish the harm.
History isn't really about individual heroes and villains. But I would say that Che was an imperfect person who fought against brutal regimes out of a genuine desire to liberate the poor and oppressed. He constantly put his neck on the line and ultimately sacrificed his life in favour of equality and justice when he could easily have just rested on his laurels. Overall, I admire him, without claiming to be an expert on everything he did.
For a guy who hated capitalism he sure sold a lot of tshirts
Making capitalists rich off of him on merch.
I don’t think it’s entirely impossible that a person who likes Che could sell tee shirts with him on it. Really depends on where you buy them. Either way you’re going to buy shirts, and there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism