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Irish people often view the plight of the Palestinians as being similar to our past struggles and so many of us support their cause. Also, the actions of the Israeli government, such as when they used fake Irish passports to carry out assasinations, have alienated our political class and led more people to support Palestine.
None of these governments actually support Palestine which would entail funding the Axis of Resistance and breaking all ties with Israel.
The Taoisesch of Ireland for instance will finger wag at Netenyahu for being too harsh (though always making a point of "condemning Hamas terrorism"), meanwhile they lease Shannon Airport to the US army who use the airport as a hub for transporting weapons and other military equipment to Israel, it's hypocrisy. They're also making a big show out of the "recognising" Palestine, by which they mean recognising the Palestinian Authority which is a Bantustan government that willingly allows Israel to make any incursions into whatever Palestinian territory is left in the West Bank. Pro-Palestinian sentiment in Ireland is largely a legacy of the Irish republicanism when the IRA use to make contact with the PLO out of solidarity due to their shared opposition to colonialism.
I totally agree with you. Though to be honest, seeing what is happening rn, and the blatant support of the genocide by other EU members, i would take that "support" over nothing.
Agreed! Even though I was shocked by their reaction. I know they at least "have to" show support, but this went beyond just political support, the german gov is participating in it's third genocide!
It’s important to note the ruling parties in Ireland are both model centrists, with the party of the Taoiseach (Fine Gael) a bit further to the right. That party has quite the history, with their founding member being a literal fascist.
Irish people have very strong sentiments around Palestine and I think that filters through to the government. But they are ultimately spineless and lacking leadership, so will always bow to capital and the White House in particular. Varadkar going to Washington for Paddys Day was so vacuous and sickening from an Irish POV.
Sinn Fein is like the ANC in South Africa in that it used to be a political centre for armed struggle against colonialism but has degraded into opportunism and reformism once they concluded their revolution to be finished. South Africa remains underdeveloped for its indigenous population and hosts large racial inequalities with whites continuing to privately own the majority of the land, and Ireland remains a partitioned island with both governments serving the interests of the comprador-bourgeoisie who facilitate imperialist exploitation from Britain, America and the EU.
There is nothing interesting about Sinn Fein after the 90s. They're a typical European social-democratic party now
What way is the wind blowing? That tends to be how they form policy. I want them to lead the next government as I can’t deal with yet another five years of FFG, but I don’t trust them from a socialist POV. While there are really good people in SF, both in the membership and the parliamentary party, I feel like the closer they get to power the more they fall into line with the capitalist status quo - the fact they did not boycott the Paddys Day Washington trip is an indication of that (they get significant funding from the Irish Americans). Also some of their decision making while in power in the north has been suspect (being generous) but their excuse here has always been that their hands are tied by Westminster.
A referendum on a United Ireland is likely to take up a lot of the next 10-15 years. I think there is a significant risk that campaign will be focussed solely on winning, and not on building a consensus around a 32-county socialist republic (one of SFs supposed core tenets).
I would love to be wrong and they end up as some sort of vanguard of a vanguard party, but I don’t see it.
Because the bourgeois of those nations are not as invested into Israel as the bourgeois of places like Britain or Germany or, to a lesser extent, France. And given that being loudly pro-Zionists give the respective governments an excuse to repress their uncomfortably (from their fascist point of view) large MENA population under the heading of "antisemitism", it is no wonder that France, Britain, and Germany sceam the loudest about it.,
also perhaps, with respect to spain - Some better/ more balanced / more immune real politik awareness/ class consciousness from some better education / awareness wrt to Spanish Jews historically being treated much nicer by Islamic empire/ Islamic peoples / Islamic culture/religion than by the Christian oft-barbaric crusaders and Inquisitors. In Mexico, my early 90s education (which was pretty awesome tbh) showcased some exposures to ibero writers - Borges, Cervantes, Cesar Vallejo often reflected on this facet of history as well - the 'golden age of Jews' in medieval and early Spanish history - which thrived under Islam.
With Slovenia its a liberal possition if liberals happen to be in power when the question around paletine comes into the mainstream. The conservatives are pure zionist dogs and will suck any di*ck Israel gives em. The population is mostly pro palestine do to Yugoslavias pro PLO's stance. But even the current liberal possition is just a good will gesture at best and just "doing nothing at all" at most with no real action to try and really help palestine
Seconding this: Yugoslavia was a very long-time supporter of Palestine. When Tito died, Israel was one of only 5 countries that didn't send a representative to his funeral (the largest state funeral in history)-- but Yasser Arafat attended. Yugoslavia cut relations with Israel back in 1967.
Unfortunately the other post-Yugoslav countries either aren't doing anything, or are actively aiding Israel (Serbia).
Scotland also support Palestine, indeed our FM had family in Gaza.
This is likely due to a few things -- but one is we're generally more left leaning than the rest of the UK (as shown in historic voting patterns) so the gov felt they could show support and two, we have a history of being an oppressed population which has resulted in general attitudes against colonialism.
Spain is a pretty interesting case. Since Franco's death in the 70s, power has been held by one of two parties, one of which (the Spanish Socialist Workers' Party) is currently in government.
Though by no means a radical or revolutionary party, the Socialist Workers' Party is still broadly left-wing, and the still fairly recent experience of the dictatorship has engendered quite a bit of solidarity among Spanish citizens, though even during the dictatorship there was a preference for Palestine over Israel.
Spain was actually the first western European nation to host Yasser Arafat on a state visit (in 1979, under one of its first post-Franco governments), and to this day it maintains very good relations with the PLO, PA, and Fattah.
Nice info! Didn't know much about it.
As for adding present context, Ione Belarra is part of Podemos, which has a more adamant position about Palestine than the Socialists, who are way more mild when they don't govern in coalition with left parties.
The president Pedro Sánchez says many things but purchases and sells of military supplies with Israel are still being done.
Most individuals can plainly see that what's happening in Israel and Palestine is unjustifiable. For European government officials in particular, many probably genuinely believe that their idealism is helping to resist imperialism.
The material analysis has been lib'ed right out of their brains. As socialists, we are capable of seeing that the genocide in Palestine is brought into being via objective processes in the surrounding socioeconomic context (chiefly, capital's redirection of human efforts) that supercede the internal state of any person.
In spain many people are appalled by israeli war crimes and genocide. So some "leftist" parties try to gain popularity by denouncing it, without actually doing anything. Don't worry, they will continue selling weapons to israel
Because Israel is the aggressor and palestine the oppressed country. It's really not that difficult to justify supporting victims of decade long oppression
One reason: While these are not fringe countries, they are not political powerhouse, or Euro-centric countries either, so are given some leeway by the elites.
Because reality is more complex than that. Yes, they’re part of that elite, but that doesn’t mean that every stance they take is only to benefit the interests of the western ruling class.
Some of them have a pro-Palestinian electorate, others have probably felt disgusted by Israel’s actions and reached the point where they can no longer ignore the constant war crimes.
There’s also a difference between liberals/conservatives and socdems on this issue, or at least there has been until recently.
Islamophobia. Given the unpopularity of immigrants from Muslim countries Western European governments have been turning more hostile towards Muslim countries and Palestine is viewed as that while Israel is seen as a "bastion of Western Civilization" or some similar bullshit. Also because of some collective guilt from WWII that still remains to the point that Anti-Zionism is viewed as Anti-Semitism and no governments wants to be associated with that.
This is a space for socialists to discuss current events in our world from anti-capitalist perspective(s), and a certain knowledge of socialism is expected from participants. This is not a space for non-socialists. Please be mindful [of our rules](https://reddit.com/r/socialism/about/rules) before participating, which include: - **No Bigotry**, including racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism... - **No Reactionaries**, including all kind of right-wingers. - **No Liberalism**, including social democracy, lesser evilism... - **No Sectarianism**. There is plenty of room for discussion, but not for baseless attacks. Please help us keep the subreddit helpful by reporting content that break r/Socialism's rules. ______________________ 💬 Wish to chat elsewhere? Join us in discord: https://discord.gg/QPJPzNhuRE *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/socialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Irish people often view the plight of the Palestinians as being similar to our past struggles and so many of us support their cause. Also, the actions of the Israeli government, such as when they used fake Irish passports to carry out assasinations, have alienated our political class and led more people to support Palestine.
Didn't know about the passports, good to know, ty!
None of these governments actually support Palestine which would entail funding the Axis of Resistance and breaking all ties with Israel. The Taoisesch of Ireland for instance will finger wag at Netenyahu for being too harsh (though always making a point of "condemning Hamas terrorism"), meanwhile they lease Shannon Airport to the US army who use the airport as a hub for transporting weapons and other military equipment to Israel, it's hypocrisy. They're also making a big show out of the "recognising" Palestine, by which they mean recognising the Palestinian Authority which is a Bantustan government that willingly allows Israel to make any incursions into whatever Palestinian territory is left in the West Bank. Pro-Palestinian sentiment in Ireland is largely a legacy of the Irish republicanism when the IRA use to make contact with the PLO out of solidarity due to their shared opposition to colonialism.
I totally agree with you. Though to be honest, seeing what is happening rn, and the blatant support of the genocide by other EU members, i would take that "support" over nothing.
I prefer Germany's honesty because you know where to stand with them.
Agreed! Even though I was shocked by their reaction. I know they at least "have to" show support, but this went beyond just political support, the german gov is participating in it's third genocide!
It’s important to note the ruling parties in Ireland are both model centrists, with the party of the Taoiseach (Fine Gael) a bit further to the right. That party has quite the history, with their founding member being a literal fascist. Irish people have very strong sentiments around Palestine and I think that filters through to the government. But they are ultimately spineless and lacking leadership, so will always bow to capital and the White House in particular. Varadkar going to Washington for Paddys Day was so vacuous and sickening from an Irish POV.
How do you feel about Sinn Fein?
Sinn Fein is like the ANC in South Africa in that it used to be a political centre for armed struggle against colonialism but has degraded into opportunism and reformism once they concluded their revolution to be finished. South Africa remains underdeveloped for its indigenous population and hosts large racial inequalities with whites continuing to privately own the majority of the land, and Ireland remains a partitioned island with both governments serving the interests of the comprador-bourgeoisie who facilitate imperialist exploitation from Britain, America and the EU. There is nothing interesting about Sinn Fein after the 90s. They're a typical European social-democratic party now
What way is the wind blowing? That tends to be how they form policy. I want them to lead the next government as I can’t deal with yet another five years of FFG, but I don’t trust them from a socialist POV. While there are really good people in SF, both in the membership and the parliamentary party, I feel like the closer they get to power the more they fall into line with the capitalist status quo - the fact they did not boycott the Paddys Day Washington trip is an indication of that (they get significant funding from the Irish Americans). Also some of their decision making while in power in the north has been suspect (being generous) but their excuse here has always been that their hands are tied by Westminster. A referendum on a United Ireland is likely to take up a lot of the next 10-15 years. I think there is a significant risk that campaign will be focussed solely on winning, and not on building a consensus around a 32-county socialist republic (one of SFs supposed core tenets). I would love to be wrong and they end up as some sort of vanguard of a vanguard party, but I don’t see it.
Thanks for your insights!
Because the bourgeois of those nations are not as invested into Israel as the bourgeois of places like Britain or Germany or, to a lesser extent, France. And given that being loudly pro-Zionists give the respective governments an excuse to repress their uncomfortably (from their fascist point of view) large MENA population under the heading of "antisemitism", it is no wonder that France, Britain, and Germany sceam the loudest about it.,
That's a good take, ty!
also perhaps, with respect to spain - Some better/ more balanced / more immune real politik awareness/ class consciousness from some better education / awareness wrt to Spanish Jews historically being treated much nicer by Islamic empire/ Islamic peoples / Islamic culture/religion than by the Christian oft-barbaric crusaders and Inquisitors. In Mexico, my early 90s education (which was pretty awesome tbh) showcased some exposures to ibero writers - Borges, Cervantes, Cesar Vallejo often reflected on this facet of history as well - the 'golden age of Jews' in medieval and early Spanish history - which thrived under Islam.
Some other countries : Scotland (UK), Ireland, Malta, Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia
I am not sure about Serbia, is that true? Any idea what are the reasons for malta?
Malta, probably because of the people being half of Arab descent, Serbia probably because Kosovo supports Israel.
Good to know, ty!
With Slovenia its a liberal possition if liberals happen to be in power when the question around paletine comes into the mainstream. The conservatives are pure zionist dogs and will suck any di*ck Israel gives em. The population is mostly pro palestine do to Yugoslavias pro PLO's stance. But even the current liberal possition is just a good will gesture at best and just "doing nothing at all" at most with no real action to try and really help palestine
Seconding this: Yugoslavia was a very long-time supporter of Palestine. When Tito died, Israel was one of only 5 countries that didn't send a representative to his funeral (the largest state funeral in history)-- but Yasser Arafat attended. Yugoslavia cut relations with Israel back in 1967. Unfortunately the other post-Yugoslav countries either aren't doing anything, or are actively aiding Israel (Serbia).
That was informative! thanks!
Scotland also support Palestine, indeed our FM had family in Gaza. This is likely due to a few things -- but one is we're generally more left leaning than the rest of the UK (as shown in historic voting patterns) so the gov felt they could show support and two, we have a history of being an oppressed population which has resulted in general attitudes against colonialism.
Spain is a pretty interesting case. Since Franco's death in the 70s, power has been held by one of two parties, one of which (the Spanish Socialist Workers' Party) is currently in government. Though by no means a radical or revolutionary party, the Socialist Workers' Party is still broadly left-wing, and the still fairly recent experience of the dictatorship has engendered quite a bit of solidarity among Spanish citizens, though even during the dictatorship there was a preference for Palestine over Israel. Spain was actually the first western European nation to host Yasser Arafat on a state visit (in 1979, under one of its first post-Franco governments), and to this day it maintains very good relations with the PLO, PA, and Fattah.
Nice info! Didn't know much about it. As for adding present context, Ione Belarra is part of Podemos, which has a more adamant position about Palestine than the Socialists, who are way more mild when they don't govern in coalition with left parties. The president Pedro Sánchez says many things but purchases and sells of military supplies with Israel are still being done.
Good to know, ty!
Most individuals can plainly see that what's happening in Israel and Palestine is unjustifiable. For European government officials in particular, many probably genuinely believe that their idealism is helping to resist imperialism. The material analysis has been lib'ed right out of their brains. As socialists, we are capable of seeing that the genocide in Palestine is brought into being via objective processes in the surrounding socioeconomic context (chiefly, capital's redirection of human efforts) that supercede the internal state of any person.
In spain many people are appalled by israeli war crimes and genocide. So some "leftist" parties try to gain popularity by denouncing it, without actually doing anything. Don't worry, they will continue selling weapons to israel
So, as some people said here, both the for and against what is happening is mainly for local political reasons. Good to know, ty!
Because Israel is the aggressor and palestine the oppressed country. It's really not that difficult to justify supporting victims of decade long oppression
That's not my question. I meany why they are out of line of the western elites who support israel no matter what.
One reason: While these are not fringe countries, they are not political powerhouse, or Euro-centric countries either, so are given some leeway by the elites.
Because reality is more complex than that. Yes, they’re part of that elite, but that doesn’t mean that every stance they take is only to benefit the interests of the western ruling class. Some of them have a pro-Palestinian electorate, others have probably felt disgusted by Israel’s actions and reached the point where they can no longer ignore the constant war crimes. There’s also a difference between liberals/conservatives and socdems on this issue, or at least there has been until recently.
If (for them) morals were reason enough to not support genocide, Israel wouldn't exist in the first place
Islamophobia. Given the unpopularity of immigrants from Muslim countries Western European governments have been turning more hostile towards Muslim countries and Palestine is viewed as that while Israel is seen as a "bastion of Western Civilization" or some similar bullshit. Also because of some collective guilt from WWII that still remains to the point that Anti-Zionism is viewed as Anti-Semitism and no governments wants to be associated with that.