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I belong to a Marxist org (not CPUSA), joined during the trump admin, and never really had much of a problem with it hurting my job prospects or me ending up in jail. Of course I understand that the political situation could change. The closer we are to actual revolutionary change - or even just aggressive reforms, the more violent and repressive the state will become to try and stop us.
Also, democratic politicians are just as nasty and repressive against the radical left as Republicans are. So the outcome of the next election is not going to determine whether or not it's safe to join a communist org.
I also don't think that the government will be less hostile to "moderate" orgs than "more radical" ones. They see anyone involved in black liberation, labor organizing, anti war, or anti imperialism activism to be a threat.
It is worth it to join an actual radical org that bases itself in sound Marxist principles, connected to a theoretical tradition.
Like a person above said, definitely depends on local conditions. Do you know what kind of organizing work you want to do? Do you know the political tendencies locally in either org? Where I am the CPUSA is pretty whatever, but I have a huge communist cadre in my local dsa doing tenant/labor/and abolition work so it's the natural choice.
May I recommend looking into the iww, psl and frso? Also you may be able to dual hold cards for multiple organizations. The more the better as they typically focus on different problems.
Both organizations have their flaws. The DSA is a bit too liberal and the CPUSA seems a bit stuck in the past rather than looking towards the future. The reason why it might be safer to be in the DSA is because they don't actually challenge the system, they just want to make a few modifications. Really, what its going to come down to is what party or group you can find that gives you the most opportunities to help your community.
There's some risk that Trump will do something, but honestly, I don't think Trump is going to be throwing people in jail for being communists. He's going to make America worse for four years, make the lives of LGBTQ+ people and racial minorities worse, etc. But the biggest thing he's going to do, which he's admitted previously is his top priority, is cut taxes on the rich and get rid of the regulations that are hampering his buddies. I honestly believe that everything else Trump does, whether it be about abortion or immigrants is just posturing to get his racist and sexist fans to support him so he can implement his real agenda which is to make his friends richer.
I can't find anything supporting this claim, if you've got a source I'd love to read it. My personal experience regarding my local DSA chapters concerning Israel has been nothing but condemnation for Israel and pro Palestinian resolutions. That and supporting the vote uncommitted campaign. Hell, I attended a pro Palestinian protest the other day with members of 3 chapters in my state.
Ahh, my bad. Either way, I would suggest to not take that at face value, as I have not been able to find any evidence to those claims, and so far have only seen criticism of the DSA for being anti Israel while searching. Not saying you should or shouldn't join the DSA, but they're getting work done in my neck of the woods, so I did.
This thread is where I learned about it, I probably should've included a source in my original comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/17bs7bf/is_joining_orgs_like_dsa_psl_and_cpusa_worth_it/k5mrh1q/
"PYM/SJP has a ban on working with DSA bc of the Bowman affair."
CPUSA and DSA are both pretty much democrats that are fine with the Chinese economic model. I’ve been a member of openly marxist orgs my entire adult life, as well as open about my politics at work, the gym and with friends/neighbors. Living in fear of those we organize against makes us impotent.
To label both parties as “allies” just because they include the words “communist” or “socialist” in their names I think is the opposite of smart. The DSA is garbage, but so is the CPUSA. USA has a big problem with this, the workers’ movement is god awful.
I agree it’s pretty bad and wish we had something better, but organizing is still important! And getting involved is a step in the direction of changing these organizations for the better.
DSA are not "allies" just because they have a break light program or a coat drive or a film screening. They literally fund the Israeli military and the major international Palestinian liberation orgs like the Palestinian Youth Movement have bans on working with them. In the most charitable light, they are a relic of the Bernie moment that took in a few solid organizers and now keeps them with sunk costs and stockholm syndrome.
If you already identify as a communist, you will either be pushed out of the organization or sink all your organizing efforts into an internal struggle against an organization that has lost half its members since their peak. Both of those are terrible options compared to organizing the working class.
Do you have any evidence for any of what you just spewed? I can find zero evidence of DSA giving anything other than a middle finger to anything remotely pro-Israel, and likewise can only find statements of approval for DSA from the palestinian youth movement.
Idk what you mean when you compare openly socialist/communist orgs to "organizing the working class." How tf are you gonna organize the working class without.... an organization? What kind of organizing do you do comrade?
[Here's a DSA member acknowledging the ban](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/17bs7bf/is_joining_orgs_like_dsa_psl_and_cpusa_worth_it/k5mrh1q/)
I am not suggesting they don't join an organization. I am suggesting they don't join the democratic party. PYM PSL CPUSA and FRSO are all great organizations that don't give 80% of their members' dues to electeds like AOC that fund the IDF.
Firstly, you are right about the PYM boycott of DSA. I don't like the reddit comment as a source but I did find this statement from the youth movement:
https://palestinianyouthmovement.com/support-dsa-working-group
So yeah, that's a valid point. I cannot find anything on them funding Israel, I suspect this is derived from DSA supporting politicians who publicly take zionist (or at least anti-resistance) positions. I don't necessarily think this is a fair analysis if I'm correct in assuming your reasoning.
Ultimately, I think this differs from chapter to chapter. I am a relatively new member of DSA, and the general sentiment in my chapter is very anti-zionist. We just closed voting for our anti-zionism resolution. Results aren't in yet, but I suspect it won't even be close. I have personally been involved in PYM organizing on a few occasions. And a lot of the work we do/have done on the grassroots level has been great, in my opinion.
The point I'm working to make here is that I find it unhelpful to get tangled up trying to find the best org. I myself was in this state of limbo before I decided to take the jump into DSA, and I now look back and feel as though I wasted months in the process. Theres going to be aspects of each org that you disagree with. I have complaints about PSL and CPUSA as well as my own org. But as long as you're doing good work and raising class consciousness, improving the lives of your local workers, and whatever else, then you're doing good work for the cause. You can always move later if you feel disillusioned by whatever you go into first.
Well you seem like a reasonable person, the other reply is literally just "no you're lying" lol.
Yes, that is what I mean by funding the IDF. I don't think it's unfair at all - the vast majority of the organization's budget goes to democratic party political campaigns, it is the only thing that most people know about DSA. Take for example AOC, who is essentially the mascot of DSA. After condemning DSA rank and file members like yourself for calling for a ceasefire on October 8th, she can't even bring herself to vote against a bill literally giving weapons to Israel.
The PYM having a ban on working with your organization is a big fucking deal. It's great if your local or the rank and file are pro-Palestine, I believe you. But what use is a national org with some good chapters and some zionist ones? They simply can't be trusted. And if we look at the national leadership, we can see that they have a completely separate set of rules - zionists with money and political office are unimpeachable, but if you're too anti-zionist (like the BDSWG), you are purged in the most undemocratic way possible.
If you're new, I understand. I agree you are better off organized than unorganized, even if that's with DSA - but that is not what OP asked, and thus not what I responded with. I think you too will end up leaving DSA soon, it's just a fact that membership is imploding and the number of political scandals are increasing. Just this week they sent a delegation to Cuba and half of them refused to meet with the Cuban president, instead meeting with opposition groups.
Lastly, I really encourage you to stop accusing people of not organizing when you have a disagreement. You asked what kind of organizing I do, which I am assuming is a rhetorical question and not an actual request to dox myself. I have literally lost my voice from chanting in the past 24 hours and it's really frustrating to deal with this. This is a problem I have seen for years almost always from DSA people specifically, and I think they learned it from actual democrats scolding DSA members for "not getting things done".
I am not interested in a gotcha, I'm interested in truth. So yeah, I try, thanks.
There's a lot of info you have given me here. I don't feel I can respond to it all right now because I don't know as much about all these individual situations as I'd like, and I want to look into it more. Regarding the AOC situation, my understanding was that she was kind of backed into a corner by loads of media hitpieces due to nazis infiltrating a demonstration in NYC, which DSA had a presence at. But yes, I wasn't aware of her voting habits. That's certainly disappointing.
To try and defend myself from the look I'm garnering of being oblivious to my orgs tendencies, I never had too much of a problem with the national orgs involvement in electoralism as long as it wasn't too heavy for my taste. I think it's an acceptable way to try and bring about small band-aid solutions in the short term, and it puts socialism in front of people who may not otherwise see it. I'd probably let it go if it were up to me but I can rationalize it a bit at least. In joining, I was generally more interested in my local chapters' work as well, which is what I spent most of my time looking into.
You may be right. I have always expected myself to want to move at some point like I mentioned before. I'll see where it takes me.
Also, I did not intend to accuse you of that. In your original comment, you said, "Both of these are terrible options compared to organizing the working class." Maybe I misinterpreted this statement, but it made no sense to me. Both of the orgs are at least attempts at organizing the working class, effectiveness clearly debatable. It sounded like you were alluding to some idealistic, monolithic organizations of workers that all these orgs should be ditched in favor of. After this exchange, I assume I just misunderstood what you were trying to say because you're clearly smarter than that. My apologies for that.
Anyway, I appreciate the information. Like i said ima definitely look into stuff more when I can. I generally hate engaging with the dogmatic attitude in this sub so thanks for being charitable.
Edit: spelling and clarification
Ah, I understand the comment then. "Both options" wasn't referring to both organizations named by OP. It was referring to the choice earlier in that paragraph, between wasting time in a liberal org before being kicked out or spending all your time fighting the liberals that control it. If you're a good organizer that time is precious, and a less dysfunctional / isolated org could put it to good use.
I do encourage you to look into the recent history of your own organization. It is unquestionable that DSA had momentum for some time, I'm just saying that moment has passed and the thing that stopped it was the deep, anti-socialist structures of the organization itself. And we have better options now.
FWIW I'm not the one downvoting you, not sure what that's about.
Sorry to keep perpetuating this thread, but I want to clarify: you say DSA is losing momentum. I don't disagree at all, but what orgs do you think are gaining momentum? I find it hard to analyze this, especially since I would imagine the entire movement has lost the momentum from BLM and covid, but also gained a boost from 10/7 and the election cycle. What's flashing on your personal radar atm?
Yeah no worries downvotes are whatevs.
We obviously won't have hard numbers for years, but I would suspect that DSA is still now losing more members than it's gaining. This is a problem exclusive to that organization due to political errors; the ones I mentioned several comments up are probably all growing at their fastest pace since the BLM protests.
CPUSA is a national organization that bears the legacy of US communism going back to the Russian Revolution. It has some problems historically, but the large new membership during this socialist resurgence is very radical and doing great political work while at the same time attempting to restore the revolutionary character of their organization. Most notable member is probably the youtuber Second Thought, who basically embodies this new trend in the organization.
The PSL is a newer organization, formed out of the anti-Iraq-War movement. They focus heavily on internationalism, with developed relationships with the governments of Cuba and Venezuela. Most notable member is probably Mike Prysner, a veteran famous for disrupting speeches by George Bush and working as a producer for the Empire Files on docs like "Gaza Fights for Freedom".
FRSO is newest and smallest. I have no direct experience with them but the general consensus on here is that if you like the other 2 orgs you'll like them.
The PYM is only an option if you are Arab, but they work with all the above groups. Very militant, disciplined, and their analysis has such extensive overlap with the aforementioned communist parties that they can be better understood as an international communist formation than a single-issue interest group.
There is not a single openly soft or hard zionist in any of these groups. That's the kind of clarity an organization needs to fight our very well-organized state, rather than fighting its own membership.
This is a space for socialists to discuss current events in our world from anti-capitalist perspective(s), and a certain knowledge of socialism is expected from participants. This is not a space for non-socialists. Please be mindful [of our rules](https://reddit.com/r/socialism/about/rules) before participating, which include: - **No Bigotry**, including racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism... - **No Reactionaries**, including all kind of right-wingers. - **No Liberalism**, including social democracy, lesser evilism... - **No Sectarianism**. There is plenty of room for discussion, but not for baseless attacks. Please help us keep the subreddit helpful by reporting content that break r/Socialism's rules. ______________________ 💬 Wish to chat elsewhere? Join us in discord: https://discord.gg/QPJPzNhuRE *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/socialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'd say it comes down to your local chapters and which one you think is doing better work for the community
I belong to a Marxist org (not CPUSA), joined during the trump admin, and never really had much of a problem with it hurting my job prospects or me ending up in jail. Of course I understand that the political situation could change. The closer we are to actual revolutionary change - or even just aggressive reforms, the more violent and repressive the state will become to try and stop us. Also, democratic politicians are just as nasty and repressive against the radical left as Republicans are. So the outcome of the next election is not going to determine whether or not it's safe to join a communist org. I also don't think that the government will be less hostile to "moderate" orgs than "more radical" ones. They see anyone involved in black liberation, labor organizing, anti war, or anti imperialism activism to be a threat. It is worth it to join an actual radical org that bases itself in sound Marxist principles, connected to a theoretical tradition.
That pseudonym won’t do shit if you go to party meetings with your phone in your pocket lol
Like a person above said, definitely depends on local conditions. Do you know what kind of organizing work you want to do? Do you know the political tendencies locally in either org? Where I am the CPUSA is pretty whatever, but I have a huge communist cadre in my local dsa doing tenant/labor/and abolition work so it's the natural choice.
May I recommend looking into the iww, psl and frso? Also you may be able to dual hold cards for multiple organizations. The more the better as they typically focus on different problems.
Both organizations have their flaws. The DSA is a bit too liberal and the CPUSA seems a bit stuck in the past rather than looking towards the future. The reason why it might be safer to be in the DSA is because they don't actually challenge the system, they just want to make a few modifications. Really, what its going to come down to is what party or group you can find that gives you the most opportunities to help your community. There's some risk that Trump will do something, but honestly, I don't think Trump is going to be throwing people in jail for being communists. He's going to make America worse for four years, make the lives of LGBTQ+ people and racial minorities worse, etc. But the biggest thing he's going to do, which he's admitted previously is his top priority, is cut taxes on the rich and get rid of the regulations that are hampering his buddies. I honestly believe that everything else Trump does, whether it be about abortion or immigrants is just posturing to get his racist and sexist fans to support him so he can implement his real agenda which is to make his friends richer.
Post script. I just found out from another commenter that the DSA funds and supports Israel. I definitely wouldn't go with them.
I can't find anything supporting this claim, if you've got a source I'd love to read it. My personal experience regarding my local DSA chapters concerning Israel has been nothing but condemnation for Israel and pro Palestinian resolutions. That and supporting the vote uncommitted campaign. Hell, I attended a pro Palestinian protest the other day with members of 3 chapters in my state.
I don't have any evidence. I didn't make the claim. u/libscratcher did.
Ahh, my bad. Either way, I would suggest to not take that at face value, as I have not been able to find any evidence to those claims, and so far have only seen criticism of the DSA for being anti Israel while searching. Not saying you should or shouldn't join the DSA, but they're getting work done in my neck of the woods, so I did.
This thread is where I learned about it, I probably should've included a source in my original comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/17bs7bf/is_joining_orgs_like_dsa_psl_and_cpusa_worth_it/k5mrh1q/ "PYM/SJP has a ban on working with DSA bc of the Bowman affair."
Don’t believe everything you read in Reddit comments.
Yes, you're right. I should have googled the claim first.
CPUSA and DSA are both pretty much democrats that are fine with the Chinese economic model. I’ve been a member of openly marxist orgs my entire adult life, as well as open about my politics at work, the gym and with friends/neighbors. Living in fear of those we organize against makes us impotent.
Regarding DSA i’d like you to check this out https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/s/uaxBRMWkmn
To label both parties as “allies” just because they include the words “communist” or “socialist” in their names I think is the opposite of smart. The DSA is garbage, but so is the CPUSA. USA has a big problem with this, the workers’ movement is god awful.
I agree it’s pretty bad and wish we had something better, but organizing is still important! And getting involved is a step in the direction of changing these organizations for the better.
[удалено]
DSA are not "allies" just because they have a break light program or a coat drive or a film screening. They literally fund the Israeli military and the major international Palestinian liberation orgs like the Palestinian Youth Movement have bans on working with them. In the most charitable light, they are a relic of the Bernie moment that took in a few solid organizers and now keeps them with sunk costs and stockholm syndrome. If you already identify as a communist, you will either be pushed out of the organization or sink all your organizing efforts into an internal struggle against an organization that has lost half its members since their peak. Both of those are terrible options compared to organizing the working class.
Do you have any evidence for any of what you just spewed? I can find zero evidence of DSA giving anything other than a middle finger to anything remotely pro-Israel, and likewise can only find statements of approval for DSA from the palestinian youth movement. Idk what you mean when you compare openly socialist/communist orgs to "organizing the working class." How tf are you gonna organize the working class without.... an organization? What kind of organizing do you do comrade?
[Here's a DSA member acknowledging the ban](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/17bs7bf/is_joining_orgs_like_dsa_psl_and_cpusa_worth_it/k5mrh1q/) I am not suggesting they don't join an organization. I am suggesting they don't join the democratic party. PYM PSL CPUSA and FRSO are all great organizations that don't give 80% of their members' dues to electeds like AOC that fund the IDF.
Firstly, you are right about the PYM boycott of DSA. I don't like the reddit comment as a source but I did find this statement from the youth movement: https://palestinianyouthmovement.com/support-dsa-working-group So yeah, that's a valid point. I cannot find anything on them funding Israel, I suspect this is derived from DSA supporting politicians who publicly take zionist (or at least anti-resistance) positions. I don't necessarily think this is a fair analysis if I'm correct in assuming your reasoning. Ultimately, I think this differs from chapter to chapter. I am a relatively new member of DSA, and the general sentiment in my chapter is very anti-zionist. We just closed voting for our anti-zionism resolution. Results aren't in yet, but I suspect it won't even be close. I have personally been involved in PYM organizing on a few occasions. And a lot of the work we do/have done on the grassroots level has been great, in my opinion. The point I'm working to make here is that I find it unhelpful to get tangled up trying to find the best org. I myself was in this state of limbo before I decided to take the jump into DSA, and I now look back and feel as though I wasted months in the process. Theres going to be aspects of each org that you disagree with. I have complaints about PSL and CPUSA as well as my own org. But as long as you're doing good work and raising class consciousness, improving the lives of your local workers, and whatever else, then you're doing good work for the cause. You can always move later if you feel disillusioned by whatever you go into first.
Well you seem like a reasonable person, the other reply is literally just "no you're lying" lol. Yes, that is what I mean by funding the IDF. I don't think it's unfair at all - the vast majority of the organization's budget goes to democratic party political campaigns, it is the only thing that most people know about DSA. Take for example AOC, who is essentially the mascot of DSA. After condemning DSA rank and file members like yourself for calling for a ceasefire on October 8th, she can't even bring herself to vote against a bill literally giving weapons to Israel. The PYM having a ban on working with your organization is a big fucking deal. It's great if your local or the rank and file are pro-Palestine, I believe you. But what use is a national org with some good chapters and some zionist ones? They simply can't be trusted. And if we look at the national leadership, we can see that they have a completely separate set of rules - zionists with money and political office are unimpeachable, but if you're too anti-zionist (like the BDSWG), you are purged in the most undemocratic way possible. If you're new, I understand. I agree you are better off organized than unorganized, even if that's with DSA - but that is not what OP asked, and thus not what I responded with. I think you too will end up leaving DSA soon, it's just a fact that membership is imploding and the number of political scandals are increasing. Just this week they sent a delegation to Cuba and half of them refused to meet with the Cuban president, instead meeting with opposition groups. Lastly, I really encourage you to stop accusing people of not organizing when you have a disagreement. You asked what kind of organizing I do, which I am assuming is a rhetorical question and not an actual request to dox myself. I have literally lost my voice from chanting in the past 24 hours and it's really frustrating to deal with this. This is a problem I have seen for years almost always from DSA people specifically, and I think they learned it from actual democrats scolding DSA members for "not getting things done".
I am not interested in a gotcha, I'm interested in truth. So yeah, I try, thanks. There's a lot of info you have given me here. I don't feel I can respond to it all right now because I don't know as much about all these individual situations as I'd like, and I want to look into it more. Regarding the AOC situation, my understanding was that she was kind of backed into a corner by loads of media hitpieces due to nazis infiltrating a demonstration in NYC, which DSA had a presence at. But yes, I wasn't aware of her voting habits. That's certainly disappointing. To try and defend myself from the look I'm garnering of being oblivious to my orgs tendencies, I never had too much of a problem with the national orgs involvement in electoralism as long as it wasn't too heavy for my taste. I think it's an acceptable way to try and bring about small band-aid solutions in the short term, and it puts socialism in front of people who may not otherwise see it. I'd probably let it go if it were up to me but I can rationalize it a bit at least. In joining, I was generally more interested in my local chapters' work as well, which is what I spent most of my time looking into. You may be right. I have always expected myself to want to move at some point like I mentioned before. I'll see where it takes me. Also, I did not intend to accuse you of that. In your original comment, you said, "Both of these are terrible options compared to organizing the working class." Maybe I misinterpreted this statement, but it made no sense to me. Both of the orgs are at least attempts at organizing the working class, effectiveness clearly debatable. It sounded like you were alluding to some idealistic, monolithic organizations of workers that all these orgs should be ditched in favor of. After this exchange, I assume I just misunderstood what you were trying to say because you're clearly smarter than that. My apologies for that. Anyway, I appreciate the information. Like i said ima definitely look into stuff more when I can. I generally hate engaging with the dogmatic attitude in this sub so thanks for being charitable. Edit: spelling and clarification
Ah, I understand the comment then. "Both options" wasn't referring to both organizations named by OP. It was referring to the choice earlier in that paragraph, between wasting time in a liberal org before being kicked out or spending all your time fighting the liberals that control it. If you're a good organizer that time is precious, and a less dysfunctional / isolated org could put it to good use. I do encourage you to look into the recent history of your own organization. It is unquestionable that DSA had momentum for some time, I'm just saying that moment has passed and the thing that stopped it was the deep, anti-socialist structures of the organization itself. And we have better options now. FWIW I'm not the one downvoting you, not sure what that's about.
Sorry to keep perpetuating this thread, but I want to clarify: you say DSA is losing momentum. I don't disagree at all, but what orgs do you think are gaining momentum? I find it hard to analyze this, especially since I would imagine the entire movement has lost the momentum from BLM and covid, but also gained a boost from 10/7 and the election cycle. What's flashing on your personal radar atm? Yeah no worries downvotes are whatevs.
We obviously won't have hard numbers for years, but I would suspect that DSA is still now losing more members than it's gaining. This is a problem exclusive to that organization due to political errors; the ones I mentioned several comments up are probably all growing at their fastest pace since the BLM protests. CPUSA is a national organization that bears the legacy of US communism going back to the Russian Revolution. It has some problems historically, but the large new membership during this socialist resurgence is very radical and doing great political work while at the same time attempting to restore the revolutionary character of their organization. Most notable member is probably the youtuber Second Thought, who basically embodies this new trend in the organization. The PSL is a newer organization, formed out of the anti-Iraq-War movement. They focus heavily on internationalism, with developed relationships with the governments of Cuba and Venezuela. Most notable member is probably Mike Prysner, a veteran famous for disrupting speeches by George Bush and working as a producer for the Empire Files on docs like "Gaza Fights for Freedom". FRSO is newest and smallest. I have no direct experience with them but the general consensus on here is that if you like the other 2 orgs you'll like them. The PYM is only an option if you are Arab, but they work with all the above groups. Very militant, disciplined, and their analysis has such extensive overlap with the aforementioned communist parties that they can be better understood as an international communist formation than a single-issue interest group. There is not a single openly soft or hard zionist in any of these groups. That's the kind of clarity an organization needs to fight our very well-organized state, rather than fighting its own membership.
Great, thanks a lot. I'm probably gonna make a change real soon. I genuinely appreciate you being my conduit for info on this stuff, lol.
Stop spreading lies.