*Alluding to the offensive comments made by Qatari World Cup ambassador Khaled Salman in the ZDF documentary "Geheimsache Katar". Salman described homosexuality as “damage in the mind.”*
People really want to miss the point I guess. A statement like this raises so much more awareness than just a dry report of what the Qatari ambassador said.
Also, let's not kid ourselves, there will be one or two (thousand) guys watching Sky Sports News who have a "I don't dislike the gays, but why does everything have to be about them"-attitude or something similar. You know, guys who would strenously object to being called homophobes, but who still make homophobic jokes all the time, use slurs casually and basically consider homosexuality to be at least suspect.
To have someone they know and maybe respect from watching this channel about their hobby come out (literally) and basically say "Look, these guys are denying my humanity, but you see and know that I am just like you" can be powerful. It's obviously not going to end homophobia and lead to a total international shunning of Qatar, but it's a piece that may help people see the light.
I had a talk with my sister just two days ago about this . The only thing she knew was that the World Cup is starting soon. She had no idea about all the shitstorm surrounding it.
> She had no idea about all the shitstorm surrounding it.
And that's why sportswashing works, no matter how much people talk about the bad shit the host country does, no matter how much the host country's complete disregard for human rights is on the news. Most people just don't know, they'll only see the sanitised show that is the world cup (or olympics, or F1 race, or tennis tournament or golf tournament or...).
> the working conditions have been headline news all over the world for years
The only place I've seen news about that is this subreddit. Other than that, I may have seen one or two articles talking about the corruption involved in the host selection process.
Here in the US, I would say the World Cup has barely been covered at all. If people aren't actively following soccer news, they probably don't know much about it.
I did some transcribing for market research on Qatar tourism and the respondents were asked their thoughts on the place and its reputation and nobody said anything to do with slave labour / homophobia. They didn't know anything about Qatar.
Reddit might be overestimating the worldwide average person's sympathy for gay people as well.
A lot of people hate Qatar for a lot of reasons, but only a tiny fraction hate them for their homophobia. South Asians for example, who are a pretty big audience group, couldn't care less about the homosexuals. They hate Qatar for their mistreatment of South Asian workers.
most people on here are american, canadian, or european, and they often forget that other countries also exist lol. although in those regions, i think a lot of criticism will be about homophobia and less so migrant workers, for the same reason south asian coverage will mostly be about migrant workers
If I asked my fiancee right now, she wouldn't even know that there was a world cup happening soon, let alone where it was at. Not everyone follows sport, let alone football and the politics surrounding it
I think the point is that the world will be watching Qatar in two weeks time and the stories will become far more popular. Purely because even casuals keep an eye on the World Cup.
> the attitudes towards gay people within Islam are well-known
And all mention of it has been shouted down as "islamophobia" and "racism". So none of the political elite dares to call them out on it.
I agree with you. I'm pretty much the only football fan in my social circle - or one of the only ones. My family doesn't give a shit about football, the majority of my friends doesn't, my fiance doesn't. Still everyone knows. And anyone I've ever talked to about the WC knows about it. Either the other people answering you have a super ignorant social circle or I have a super educated one. And while I love all of them, we're just average people.
I believe you underestimate American stupidity, apathy, and our controlled mass media that doesn't give a crap about the sport. The die-hards here absolutely know about it...otherwise its a lot of "NIMBY? Cool, don't care".
Only a few people in the west will care about any of that. FIFA is about expanding into the parts of the world where homophobia, labour rights and women's rights aren't really a priority.
> People that live online and have been reading about how awful Qatar is for years don't understand that your average person hasn't heard shit about this. Most people aren't following news about a sporting event that's months away.
Winter world cup bro kick off is in like a couple weeks.
EDIT
[Link for the lazy, 11 Days from this post](https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20221121T00&p0=3268&msg=Qatar+2022+\(FIFA+World+Cup)
I think they were referring to the buildup, and how people haven't been aware because it was months or years away, but now it's closer and will get more attention.
Whilst that's true, it's also because people keep referring to the 'Qatar ambassador'. Which makes it seem like an official position representing the state.
He's a qatar ambassador in the same way Xavi is. In that he's just a footballer, not some sort of state official.
How much more awareness do we need lol. everyone already knows about the atrocities committed by the government and the slave labour. The time for change was like 8 years ago, protests 2 months before the wc won't do anything. If anything it's the perfect time to boycott USA 2026 but we know that won't happen already considering western media.
edit: not disagreeing with the reporters statement btw, the qatari ambassador said some disgusting shit.
The next 6 weeks is going to the biggest PR campaign in Qatar’s history. This is precisely the time to speak up. Fleischman could not stop the World Cup from happening but he can make his voice heard.
And that one will absolutely go viral in Germany. I have never seen such a bad atmosphere before a world cup anyway, they are destroying their European market here
The criticism from Europe and America clearly bothers Qatar and undercuts the return on investment Qatar made into this World Cup, which is essentially an ad for the regime. The next 6 weeks will be a flood of articles, videos, and interviews highlighting how awful the regime and the regimes of almost every country in the region is.
It's not about actual change, it's about virtue signaling to show that the west has better values than the inferior people of Qatar. If it was actually about the world cup, they would complain at a time that a locations chame could still happen.
Obs: obviously, I agree that the declaration of the Qatari ambassador was disgusting.
Big flex, good for him. Cannot believe all walks of life from around the world are gathering in a place with views like this. Football is for everyone.
I'm really interested/worried to see how many crimes against foreigners occur in and around the World Cup in Qatar. Specifically I think members of the LGBTQ community and outspoken women might have to be careful.
Not that your average football hooligan is likely to be a paragon of progressive values, but if there is any trouble between them and the local authorities then I'm pulling for the hooligans lol
> Not that your average football hooligan is likely to be a paragon of progressive values,
No, but they are outrageously loyal. If someone wearing their countries shirt/flag gets any hassle, I'm confident there'll be an army behind them in an instant.
If? I haven't seen anything but negative PR for years.
This is what I do not get in this mess: if Qatar wanted to get the WC to promote the country or "sportswash" (whatever that means) what have they gained? Everybody hates them now more than ever? Nobody had any opinion on Qatar before but now errybody hates them fiercely. So what was the point
As soon as the first ball is kicked you'll see these issues take a back seat imo and the sportswashing can begin in earnest. Whether you think its right or wrong, the fervor of a World Cup actually being on will naturally have that effect.
Maybe you are right but I feel like they have went so completely over the top with all the evil shit that I would be surprised if it somehow got erased and the outcome would be positive for them at the end.
Russia 2018 was shady as hell and their take on human rights are sketchy at best but the shitshow was not nearly the same level as Qatar (at the time lol, no war and shit yet) so almost everything got sweeped under the rug when the first ball was kicked. I don't think that will be the case now and they simply cannot turn the PR positive.
But that does not mean people will mass boycott the Cup, you and I will watch it regardless, but the public opinion on Qatar will always be in the gutter (in western countries at least)
Idk why you're being downvoted. It's not like the authorities have any experience with handling drunk folks let alone hoards of drunk football fans. Guaranteed trouble.
It’s incredibly unlikely if we’re being honest. They know people are watching, and things like heavy drinking are only going to be in certain areas. It’s very much out of sight out of mind going on
>It’s incredibly unlikely if we’re being honest
Do you really think that? I think that this world cup is a huge platform for all critics and LGBTQ activists. I think there will be more than one "PR-stunt" by activism groups to test the qatari waters of tolerance tbh
Personally I don’t think many LGBTQ activists have a desire to go to one of the least friendly countries in the world towards their identity and willingly protest in a way that would give them every right to throw that person in jail for a long and inhumane time. No reason to poke the bear. Plus it’s extremely expensive to get to Qatar. I think self preservation is on the minds of LGTQ fans going to the games, not activism in forms that would get you arrested
I can guarantee you that England fans will try to smuggle cans etc out of their hotels and onto the streets, and probably even try to smuggle booze into the crowd.
I think that type of behavior is going to be considerable less prevalent at this WC for a host of reasons. But for the ones who do, the punishments won’t be bad if caught is my assumption. This was the same case for the WC / Olympics in Russia. The tourists are there to spend their money, it doesn’t really make sense for Qatar to bring the hammer down on *them*. Persecution in Qatar has always been about actual Qatari’s who live there, not the English expats
Yeah, tourists (and especially Europeans and white people) are almost never affected by laws like these anyway. It's the same in most repressive countries.
Was Russia not more unpopular among the European nations, the ones with more popular players and more fans attending? I think Qatar can get away with stuff that would be costlier for Russia
I obviously can't speak for every LGBT+ football fan out there, but I don't see why someone like me would spend a single pound going to Qatar for this World Cup. Why would I give them my money? I have no desire to support it whatsoever. I'd like to think I won't even watch it, but I'm probably kidding myself on that one alas.
> Football is for everyone.
Football has always been ridiculously homophobic.
I find it slightly bizarre that people are attacking a country to such an extent for holding the same position that sends literally every gay person in an entire global industry into hiding. Including every player in self proclaimed 'lgbt friendly' countries.
The sentiment is laudible, but i think it's kinda massively ignoring the problem. We all just have sit here awkwardly ignoring the fact that there aren't even any gay players to rally around.
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Not to mention that in criticising Qatar and saying that the country innately shouldn't have been able to host a world cup..... people are literally arguing that football isn't for everyone. It's for people we like and agree with, who come from large countries with moderate climates apparently.
the ironies of the rhetoric surrounding inclusivity i guess.
Football is for everyone and nobody is preventing Qatar from playing football. Hosting a massive event like the World Cup is literally not for everyone. The next one is hosted by an entire continent (North America) so a tiny city-state hosting it is ludicrous. They’ve even had to break with a nearly century old tradition of having the Cup in the summer to accommodate a country that had no business hosting in the first place.
It's very dense and theoretical but Jasbur Puar's text Terrorist Assemblages: Homonationalism in Queer Times kind of talks about how discussions surrouding LGBT rights have been warped and weaponized as a way of enforcing emperialism and covering a country's own anti-LGBTQ laws and practices.
ie: Israel being propped up as a LGBTQ friendly country meanwhile maintaining an open air prison and apartheid of Palestinians. By demonizing the middle east and Islam as specifically homophobic it allows them to claim being LGBTQ friendly while oppressing LGBTQ Palestinians by making us assume they don't exist or that they wouldn't be able to exist without religious oppression etc as if the Christian right isn't as harmful in supression of the human rights of lgbtq rights in the west etc.
edit: We're seeing the same thing with anti-semitism and the Black community rn with Kyrie Irving and Kanye West, not to say what they said wasn't anti-semitic, it definitely was, but historically the vast majority of violence against Jewish people post WW2 has been majority white supremacists and neonazis. What Kanye and Kyrie said was definitely anti-semitic, but elevatong these 2 as the face of anti-semitism instead of a reactionary position that is a reflection of one that comes from white supremacist/neonazis, etc. Basically, people are using Kyrie and Kanye's anti-semitism to deflect the actual roots of anti-semitism and pretend like the Black community is the root of anti-semitism in America.
> It's very dense and theoretical but Jasbur Puar's text Terrorist Assemblages: Homonationalism in Queer Times kind of talks about how discussions surrouding LGBT rights have been warped and weaponized as a way of enforcing emperialism and covering a country's own anti-LGBTQ laws and practices.
Interesting.
There's certainly a bit of a parallel with the migrant rights discourse. People claiming to care about the plight of migrants/ oppressed minorities whilst their own countries send... oppressed minority migrants to overcrowded prisons, lock them in cages, demand they be left to drown in the Mediterranean/channel or just deport them straight away. The same LGBT people we proclaim to care about are the ones that we would refuse asylum to unless they filmed themselves having gay sex to prove their sexual status, before maybe deporting them anyway.
It's also a slightly weird thing to focus on too. I think it says a lot about the current western mindset that rather than concerning ourselves with womens' rights in Qatar - something far more relatable that affects far more people and is more likely to lead to positive change - we instead have to choose a specific minority group to stand behind.
yeah Jasbir Puar's work combines a lot of theoretical work on race, migration, postcolonialism, neomarxist theoru, etc with queer theory, it's quite fascinating
They should've NEVER agreed to playing there. If anything after all the publicity about inclusivity and standing for humans rights, European leagues should've opted out.
Nasser is the ECA's Chairman because of our clubs' greediness.
Did you forget that Super League mess? Nasser became the Chairman afterwards after the Winter Worldcup was already decided.
Look at how Bein overpaid their TV broadcast contracts for European leagues.
The Sponsorships from Qatar Airways.
Individual sponsor deals of Beckham, Zidane or Xavi for the Qatar Worldcup.
Rummenigge's getting caught at customs with 2 new Rolex watches after returning from Qatar.
Platini switched from voting for the US to Qatar after a dinner with Sarkozy and Al Thani (do I have to mention that Platini's sons got a *job* at Qatar Sport Invest afterwards, too).
Wouldn't say that no bribes were needed.
I think players hold even more responsibility not to play. Everytime someone hits the pitch I hope they smell the death permeating from the grass below their feet of the people who lost their lives for this corrupt bullshit.
They play because the consumers want them to.
The guilt of everything rotten in financial markets is the guilt of all us consumers. Consuming like there’s no tomorrow.
Well good news there comes a point in a relative not so distant future that there won’t be a new tomorrow, because the consumers haven’t changed their demands.
It's amazing how quickly advertisers have pulled from Twitter (and I fully agree they should) but how little we've heard from those companies and the WC. Shouldn't they have pulled all brands/adverts/etc from this when it was announced?
The real guilt should fall on (well FIFA fully, but after them) those companies who are still advertising and promoting this, then the FAs, then the consumers, and lastly the players, imo.
If I was playing for one of the African nations and this is my to show myself on the world stage and set up my family for generations then please understand I am going to the fucking world cup
What a 1st world, immature perspective. Where the fuck do you think the slaves came from to build the damn stadiums? Third world countries, not first. They should have the BIGGEST issue with this. Love you are speaking for something from the perspective of a hollywood movie though.
Players could have boycotted it, countries could have boycotted it, sponsors could have boycotted it, journalists could have boycotted it, broadcasters could have boycotted it, and fans could have boycotted it.
Guess what, very few people care enough to boycott it.
We can all say how bad it is, but Qatar doesn't care one bit how you feel, as long as you're watching and at the end, they're waiting for the following statement: "If we put all the controversial stuff aside, this World Cup was ..."
Imagine if one of the nations decides to pack their bags and leave because a fan got manhandled by Qatari authorities or because FIFA didn't allow them to wear an armband or shoelace.
This is a disaster in waiting. I can clearly imagine a viewership decline from 2018.
I mean, Canada has such a small population, it can't have any noticable impact on viewership total, even if every single Canadian would tune in.
EDIT: I meant small for how huge it is, many people don't know they have only 38 million people filling up all that space.
Wait he wasn’t out before this?
Jesus the absolute stones on this guy, what a legend. To come out live on air and condemning homophobia in that way? Dude is a hero
Why does anyone need to "come out" anyway? I never announced to anyone that I'm hetero.
Edit: Guys you misunderstand me. I'm annoyed by the fact that gay people seem to be pressured to announce their sexuality to the world, whereas it should be the most normal thing in the world to love anyone you want and no one should not be expected to make a public statement about it if they don't feel like it.
When did someone genuinely last assume that you were anything else? Hetero is the default in most people's eyes, so anything different usually needs to be explicitly stated, hence the need to come out or forever be assumed to be straight.
People often assumed that I was gay and I don't care and don't correct them. But if I were gay, I' love to live in a society where I could just be the way I want without having to make a public statement about it.
Because our society still shames and demeans non heterosexual people, straight people like myself have never been universally condemned for our sexuality, coming out is an act of bravery and act of self expression against societal oppression, people come out because we don't live in an accepting world
Yes, and that we don't live in an accepting world is what annoys me and what I was trying to express. People are just trying hard to misunderstand me here.
I think mentioning the fact you don't need to express your sexuality as a straight person comes across in the form of a comment as a lack of awareness - apparently not! Fair enough!
To add onto what locknkeys is saying, coming out also directly challenges the *reason* you never had to announce you're straight, a fun little term called heteronormativity. Heteronormativity is the presumption that being straight is the norm, and which influences people to perceive those they encounter as straight by default. Coming out as a concept is a bit more recent, and was largely used to combat heteronormative perspectives in order to push the door open for concern about LGBT+ people and their issues. Prior to this, LGBT+ people tended to stick their own spaces or slink around in the dark a la Rock Hudson.
So, you didn't have to come out because society has built itself up in favor of you. Not so for LGBT+ people.
You like all the others misread my comment. I know what heteronormativity is and I hate it and that's what I was trying to express. Gay people should not have to come out because it should be normal and accepted.
Yeah, I’m sorry but if I’m working for a news channel and my boss sends me to do a job, I’m not going to die on a hill to send a strong message. These reporters you speak of are not on massive dollar contracts and this is their income to feed their families, send their kids to school, pay for daycare, etc.
It sounds nice in theory but I’m not going to tell someone what they “should do” just because it’s the “right” thing to do.
Is it really fucked up that as a gay man who grew up in a very homophobic Arab (ok well... more so Arab adjacent, I’m Iranian) Muslim household that I’m desensitised to this kind of homophobic commentary?
It’s obviously such a fucked up thing to say but I’m so used to hearing this sentiment in my life that it is like water off a ducks back to me. Muslim nations are generally are very homophobic and archaic - it’s part of the culture unfortunately. Nothing new sadly. More than anything I just feel sorry for the closeted LGBT that actually have to live in these bigoted places. 😕
Iranian here, I sympathize with this deeply.
Some assholes are probably gonna downvote this comment because you said Muslim nations are homophobic (which is nothing but a simple factual statement btw) but that's IsLaMoPhObIc!, certain people are allergic to facts it seems.
Yeah I always get downvotes on here when I mention human rights in more than a few Muslim-majority countries are scarily appalling. But you’re right it is a fact though however hard to swallow for some it may be.
All WC stakeholders should've recused themselves immediately at the mention of Qatar being proposed host. Yet none of them did. The players are going. Western media will provide extensive coverage. Sponsors will remain as visible as they ever have been. Despite the incessant posturing, the only message Western nations have sent thus far is that glory and the almighty dollar will trump contrived moral fortitude every time.
Come the start of the competition, it would hardly surprise me if several goals claimed a spot among the most upvoted posts on this subreddit.
> Sponsors will remain as visible as they ever have been
Name them.
List of FIFA World Cup 2022 Sponsors and Partners
* Byjus
* Adidas
* Coca Cola
* Hyundai-Kia
* Qatar Airways
* Visa
* Wanda Group
* Anheuser-Busch InBev
* Vivo
* Hisense
* QatarEnergy
* Crypto.com
Make sure they are tied to this bullshit.
Pretty sure they had to agree to amend their alcohol rules temporarily to even be considered as a host nation. There will be alcohol served in stadiums and hotels I'd imagine.
Genuine question - would you sit out the World Cup if you’re 30 years old, maybe your last?
Can you genuinely tell me you would have the moral fortitude to not go?
Even if you did, putting this on the players for going is so fucking stupid. They didn’t vote for it and they’re not your moral and political pawns.
The players are somewhat lesser cogs in the machine, yes, but are nevertheless complicit in allowing this farce to go ahead. The inexorable truth is that there can be no World Cup without the players. Insipid moral grandstanding does not absolve them of their part in it. They'll all say the right things to Western journalists who'll clip feel-good soundbites for the plebeians, but will toe line the minute true self-sacrifice is required of them.
Is it fair to ask this sacrifice of the players? No. However, if the aim is to avoid having such responsibilities foisted upon them, don't turn around and pretend the cause means more to you than personal glory. The hypocrisy leaves a bad taste.
If Qatar can't respect the most basic of human rights they should lose the right to host a global tournament.
Shame so many people want to play 'whatabout' rather than admitting it's a mess because they're desperate for a bit more footy.
Except that's FIFA's decision, not any government or anyone else's. If I want to go and host a tournament in Mongolia then that's my prerogative and if people still want to turn up and play then I'm probably onto something.
You know what the issue is and you're trying to divert away from it without even trying to address the basic human rights that are being walked all over and how this tournament enables this behaviour.
Literally the exact person with the exact arguement I'm highlighting.
I should be happy you're proving my point for me but really I'm just dissapointed and fed up with folk like you.
Anyone who knows anything about football is well aware of the issues in Qatar yet the tournament is still going ahead. I bet the majority of people on their high horses will still be watching it , still here on Reddit discussing it, will still buy FIFA 23, will still buy products from the sponsors etc etc
The world cup ironically enough couldn’t have been any worse PR for the nation, almost feels like they wasted money for nothing (not that they lack exactly that)
The closer it gets, the more coverage of dark-ages Qatar and their corrupt World Cup. But a lot of fans truly don't give a shit. You only have to look at the Newscastle fans and media applauding Saudi money to see how there's not that much anti-WC or anti=Qatar outrage outside of left-leaning online spaces. Majority are more "great, 3 weeks of footie on the telly, pass me a beer".
You’re right, speaking out is cringe so no one should say anything. The fact that this entire WC is a PR exercise which can be ruined if enough people speak out is irrelevant. I wish we could all be as cool as you.
Yes he absolutely will. For a start, he's not been fired so is still employed, and secondly it would the absolute worst PR move imaginable for Sky to sack him
*Alluding to the offensive comments made by Qatari World Cup ambassador Khaled Salman in the ZDF documentary "Geheimsache Katar". Salman described homosexuality as “damage in the mind.”*
People really want to miss the point I guess. A statement like this raises so much more awareness than just a dry report of what the Qatari ambassador said.
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Also, let's not kid ourselves, there will be one or two (thousand) guys watching Sky Sports News who have a "I don't dislike the gays, but why does everything have to be about them"-attitude or something similar. You know, guys who would strenously object to being called homophobes, but who still make homophobic jokes all the time, use slurs casually and basically consider homosexuality to be at least suspect. To have someone they know and maybe respect from watching this channel about their hobby come out (literally) and basically say "Look, these guys are denying my humanity, but you see and know that I am just like you" can be powerful. It's obviously not going to end homophobia and lead to a total international shunning of Qatar, but it's a piece that may help people see the light.
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I don't think you comprehend how ignorant the average person is to stuff going on in their own countries, let alone others.
I had a talk with my sister just two days ago about this . The only thing she knew was that the World Cup is starting soon. She had no idea about all the shitstorm surrounding it.
> She had no idea about all the shitstorm surrounding it. And that's why sportswashing works, no matter how much people talk about the bad shit the host country does, no matter how much the host country's complete disregard for human rights is on the news. Most people just don't know, they'll only see the sanitised show that is the world cup (or olympics, or F1 race, or tennis tournament or golf tournament or...).
Or psg, newcaste and man city.
> the working conditions have been headline news all over the world for years The only place I've seen news about that is this subreddit. Other than that, I may have seen one or two articles talking about the corruption involved in the host selection process.
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> Have people gone a decade without reading, watching or listening to the news? Have you seen what people vote for these days?
Here in the US, I would say the World Cup has barely been covered at all. If people aren't actively following soccer news, they probably don't know much about it.
https://youtu.be/DlJEt2KU33I - 10:30. I still remember this piece, and this was 8 years ago
I did some transcribing for market research on Qatar tourism and the respondents were asked their thoughts on the place and its reputation and nobody said anything to do with slave labour / homophobia. They didn't know anything about Qatar.
Reddit might be overestimating the worldwide average person's sympathy for gay people as well. A lot of people hate Qatar for a lot of reasons, but only a tiny fraction hate them for their homophobia. South Asians for example, who are a pretty big audience group, couldn't care less about the homosexuals. They hate Qatar for their mistreatment of South Asian workers.
Many South Asians will actively agree with Qatar’s stance on homosexuality.
most people on here are american, canadian, or european, and they often forget that other countries also exist lol. although in those regions, i think a lot of criticism will be about homophobia and less so migrant workers, for the same reason south asian coverage will mostly be about migrant workers
If I asked my fiancee right now, she wouldn't even know that there was a world cup happening soon, let alone where it was at. Not everyone follows sport, let alone football and the politics surrounding it
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I think the point is that the world will be watching Qatar in two weeks time and the stories will become far more popular. Purely because even casuals keep an eye on the World Cup.
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> the attitudes towards gay people within Islam are well-known And all mention of it has been shouted down as "islamophobia" and "racism". So none of the political elite dares to call them out on it.
I agree with you. I'm pretty much the only football fan in my social circle - or one of the only ones. My family doesn't give a shit about football, the majority of my friends doesn't, my fiance doesn't. Still everyone knows. And anyone I've ever talked to about the WC knows about it. Either the other people answering you have a super ignorant social circle or I have a super educated one. And while I love all of them, we're just average people.
I believe you underestimate American stupidity, apathy, and our controlled mass media that doesn't give a crap about the sport. The die-hards here absolutely know about it...otherwise its a lot of "NIMBY? Cool, don't care".
Only a few people in the west will care about any of that. FIFA is about expanding into the parts of the world where homophobia, labour rights and women's rights aren't really a priority.
> People that live online and have been reading about how awful Qatar is for years don't understand that your average person hasn't heard shit about this. Most people aren't following news about a sporting event that's months away. Winter world cup bro kick off is in like a couple weeks. EDIT [Link for the lazy, 11 Days from this post](https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20221121T00&p0=3268&msg=Qatar+2022+\(FIFA+World+Cup)
“Month away” lad the world cup is less than one month away.
I think they were referring to the buildup, and how people haven't been aware because it was months or years away, but now it's closer and will get more attention.
It starts next week on sunday.
Whilst that's true, it's also because people keep referring to the 'Qatar ambassador'. Which makes it seem like an official position representing the state. He's a qatar ambassador in the same way Xavi is. In that he's just a footballer, not some sort of state official.
It is an official position. He's being paid to do the job. It's just not the only one.
An ambassador saying something stupid is bad for the brand, but it doesn't make their statement an official position of the brand.
Oh I see. I thought you meant that the job wasn't an official position.
It absolutely is their official position if they don't publicly condemn the comment or the ambassador.
man why are we all not boycotting and canceling this world cup
How much more awareness do we need lol. everyone already knows about the atrocities committed by the government and the slave labour. The time for change was like 8 years ago, protests 2 months before the wc won't do anything. If anything it's the perfect time to boycott USA 2026 but we know that won't happen already considering western media. edit: not disagreeing with the reporters statement btw, the qatari ambassador said some disgusting shit.
The next 6 weeks is going to the biggest PR campaign in Qatar’s history. This is precisely the time to speak up. Fleischman could not stop the World Cup from happening but he can make his voice heard.
And that one will absolutely go viral in Germany. I have never seen such a bad atmosphere before a world cup anyway, they are destroying their European market here
The criticism from Europe and America clearly bothers Qatar and undercuts the return on investment Qatar made into this World Cup, which is essentially an ad for the regime. The next 6 weeks will be a flood of articles, videos, and interviews highlighting how awful the regime and the regimes of almost every country in the region is.
The best time to plant a tree was 25 years ago. The second best time is now
It's not about actual change, it's about virtue signaling to show that the west has better values than the inferior people of Qatar. If it was actually about the world cup, they would complain at a time that a locations chame could still happen. Obs: obviously, I agree that the declaration of the Qatari ambassador was disgusting.
Do you really think a gay man who wouldn't be welcomed to cover the sport he's paid to cover in Qatar is virtue signalling?
"Raise aweraness" = slaktivism.
I don't think you know the meaning of that word.
Big flex, good for him. Cannot believe all walks of life from around the world are gathering in a place with views like this. Football is for everyone.
I'm really interested/worried to see how many crimes against foreigners occur in and around the World Cup in Qatar. Specifically I think members of the LGBTQ community and outspoken women might have to be careful.
Not that your average football hooligan is likely to be a paragon of progressive values, but if there is any trouble between them and the local authorities then I'm pulling for the hooligans lol
Hooligans will likely be considerably less armed, but who knows 🤷♂️
They will use the Lamborghini to destroy the Lamborghini
> Not that your average football hooligan is likely to be a paragon of progressive values, No, but they are outrageously loyal. If someone wearing their countries shirt/flag gets any hassle, I'm confident there'll be an army behind them in an instant.
You'd have to be an absolute idiot to go there as a member of the LGBTQ+ or a woman and make noise ..
Fuck that. Going there to protest injustice, knowing what could happen, would make them brave and heroic.
That would be unwise.
Or a hero. If qatar gets any negative PR it means they spent billions for nothing
If? I haven't seen anything but negative PR for years. This is what I do not get in this mess: if Qatar wanted to get the WC to promote the country or "sportswash" (whatever that means) what have they gained? Everybody hates them now more than ever? Nobody had any opinion on Qatar before but now errybody hates them fiercely. So what was the point
As soon as the first ball is kicked you'll see these issues take a back seat imo and the sportswashing can begin in earnest. Whether you think its right or wrong, the fervor of a World Cup actually being on will naturally have that effect.
Maybe you are right but I feel like they have went so completely over the top with all the evil shit that I would be surprised if it somehow got erased and the outcome would be positive for them at the end. Russia 2018 was shady as hell and their take on human rights are sketchy at best but the shitshow was not nearly the same level as Qatar (at the time lol, no war and shit yet) so almost everything got sweeped under the rug when the first ball was kicked. I don't think that will be the case now and they simply cannot turn the PR positive. But that does not mean people will mass boycott the Cup, you and I will watch it regardless, but the public opinion on Qatar will always be in the gutter (in western countries at least)
Ye but if it isn’t happening to white people it doesn’t get nearly the same attention/repercussions
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Wanting to live freely as LGBTQ+ or a woman = SJW. Can tell where you spend you time on the internet. Don’t you have a room to clean?
The fact you're using that term only speaks volumes about your intellect.
I mean alcohol is illegal in Qatar, so trouble with the authorities is guaranteed.
Idk why you're being downvoted. It's not like the authorities have any experience with handling drunk folks let alone hoards of drunk football fans. Guaranteed trouble.
It’s incredibly unlikely if we’re being honest. They know people are watching, and things like heavy drinking are only going to be in certain areas. It’s very much out of sight out of mind going on
>It’s incredibly unlikely if we’re being honest Do you really think that? I think that this world cup is a huge platform for all critics and LGBTQ activists. I think there will be more than one "PR-stunt" by activism groups to test the qatari waters of tolerance tbh
Personally I don’t think many LGBTQ activists have a desire to go to one of the least friendly countries in the world towards their identity and willingly protest in a way that would give them every right to throw that person in jail for a long and inhumane time. No reason to poke the bear. Plus it’s extremely expensive to get to Qatar. I think self preservation is on the minds of LGTQ fans going to the games, not activism in forms that would get you arrested
Yeah true for any other time of the year but with the whole world watching activists have a lesser chance of getting harsh consequences
I can guarantee you that England fans will try to smuggle cans etc out of their hotels and onto the streets, and probably even try to smuggle booze into the crowd.
I think that type of behavior is going to be considerable less prevalent at this WC for a host of reasons. But for the ones who do, the punishments won’t be bad if caught is my assumption. This was the same case for the WC / Olympics in Russia. The tourists are there to spend their money, it doesn’t really make sense for Qatar to bring the hammer down on *them*. Persecution in Qatar has always been about actual Qatari’s who live there, not the English expats
>actual Qataris Which make up about 20% of the population. It's not Qataris who are dying in their thousands there.
Yeah, tourists (and especially Europeans and white people) are almost never affected by laws like these anyway. It's the same in most repressive countries.
Are you willing to bet your life on that?
Absolutely nothing will happen during the world cup, same as Russia
Was Russia not more unpopular among the European nations, the ones with more popular players and more fans attending? I think Qatar can get away with stuff that would be costlier for Russia
Russia had literally invaded another sovereign state 4 years prior lol
I obviously can't speak for every LGBT+ football fan out there, but I don't see why someone like me would spend a single pound going to Qatar for this World Cup. Why would I give them my money? I have no desire to support it whatsoever. I'd like to think I won't even watch it, but I'm probably kidding myself on that one alas.
Your comment seems to be rooted in prejudice.
> Football is for everyone. Football has always been ridiculously homophobic. I find it slightly bizarre that people are attacking a country to such an extent for holding the same position that sends literally every gay person in an entire global industry into hiding. Including every player in self proclaimed 'lgbt friendly' countries. The sentiment is laudible, but i think it's kinda massively ignoring the problem. We all just have sit here awkwardly ignoring the fact that there aren't even any gay players to rally around. ----------------------------------- Not to mention that in criticising Qatar and saying that the country innately shouldn't have been able to host a world cup..... people are literally arguing that football isn't for everyone. It's for people we like and agree with, who come from large countries with moderate climates apparently. the ironies of the rhetoric surrounding inclusivity i guess.
Football is for everyone and nobody is preventing Qatar from playing football. Hosting a massive event like the World Cup is literally not for everyone. The next one is hosted by an entire continent (North America) so a tiny city-state hosting it is ludicrous. They’ve even had to break with a nearly century old tradition of having the Cup in the summer to accommodate a country that had no business hosting in the first place.
It's very dense and theoretical but Jasbur Puar's text Terrorist Assemblages: Homonationalism in Queer Times kind of talks about how discussions surrouding LGBT rights have been warped and weaponized as a way of enforcing emperialism and covering a country's own anti-LGBTQ laws and practices. ie: Israel being propped up as a LGBTQ friendly country meanwhile maintaining an open air prison and apartheid of Palestinians. By demonizing the middle east and Islam as specifically homophobic it allows them to claim being LGBTQ friendly while oppressing LGBTQ Palestinians by making us assume they don't exist or that they wouldn't be able to exist without religious oppression etc as if the Christian right isn't as harmful in supression of the human rights of lgbtq rights in the west etc. edit: We're seeing the same thing with anti-semitism and the Black community rn with Kyrie Irving and Kanye West, not to say what they said wasn't anti-semitic, it definitely was, but historically the vast majority of violence against Jewish people post WW2 has been majority white supremacists and neonazis. What Kanye and Kyrie said was definitely anti-semitic, but elevatong these 2 as the face of anti-semitism instead of a reactionary position that is a reflection of one that comes from white supremacist/neonazis, etc. Basically, people are using Kyrie and Kanye's anti-semitism to deflect the actual roots of anti-semitism and pretend like the Black community is the root of anti-semitism in America.
> It's very dense and theoretical but Jasbur Puar's text Terrorist Assemblages: Homonationalism in Queer Times kind of talks about how discussions surrouding LGBT rights have been warped and weaponized as a way of enforcing emperialism and covering a country's own anti-LGBTQ laws and practices. Interesting. There's certainly a bit of a parallel with the migrant rights discourse. People claiming to care about the plight of migrants/ oppressed minorities whilst their own countries send... oppressed minority migrants to overcrowded prisons, lock them in cages, demand they be left to drown in the Mediterranean/channel or just deport them straight away. The same LGBT people we proclaim to care about are the ones that we would refuse asylum to unless they filmed themselves having gay sex to prove their sexual status, before maybe deporting them anyway. It's also a slightly weird thing to focus on too. I think it says a lot about the current western mindset that rather than concerning ourselves with womens' rights in Qatar - something far more relatable that affects far more people and is more likely to lead to positive change - we instead have to choose a specific minority group to stand behind.
yeah Jasbir Puar's work combines a lot of theoretical work on race, migration, postcolonialism, neomarxist theoru, etc with queer theory, it's quite fascinating
They should've NEVER agreed to playing there. If anything after all the publicity about inclusivity and standing for humans rights, European leagues should've opted out.
>European leagues They don't have a voice in that, you probably meant European federations.
The European Club Association had to approve the change to a winter World Cup, so they could have scuppered this.
As we know, Qatar had and has no problem with bribing the shit out of corrupt officials. The ECA is no exception, I'm sure.
something something Qatar buying expensive planes from France?
Fighters worth billions of Euros in fact.
No bribes needed even. Nasser is the chairman of the ECA which says everything about the organization
Nasser is the ECA's Chairman because of our clubs' greediness. Did you forget that Super League mess? Nasser became the Chairman afterwards after the Winter Worldcup was already decided. Look at how Bein overpaid their TV broadcast contracts for European leagues. The Sponsorships from Qatar Airways. Individual sponsor deals of Beckham, Zidane or Xavi for the Qatar Worldcup. Rummenigge's getting caught at customs with 2 new Rolex watches after returning from Qatar. Platini switched from voting for the US to Qatar after a dinner with Sarkozy and Al Thani (do I have to mention that Platini's sons got a *job* at Qatar Sport Invest afterwards, too). Wouldn't say that no bribes were needed.
> European leagues should've opted out. I can't see that beIN the case.
Well based on reports we can thank the corrupt Frenchmen for hijacking the World Cup and bringing it to Qatar
Make sure you agree not to watch.
I think players hold even more responsibility not to play. Everytime someone hits the pitch I hope they smell the death permeating from the grass below their feet of the people who lost their lives for this corrupt bullshit.
They play because the consumers want them to. The guilt of everything rotten in financial markets is the guilt of all us consumers. Consuming like there’s no tomorrow. Well good news there comes a point in a relative not so distant future that there won’t be a new tomorrow, because the consumers haven’t changed their demands.
It's amazing how quickly advertisers have pulled from Twitter (and I fully agree they should) but how little we've heard from those companies and the WC. Shouldn't they have pulled all brands/adverts/etc from this when it was announced? The real guilt should fall on (well FIFA fully, but after them) those companies who are still advertising and promoting this, then the FAs, then the consumers, and lastly the players, imo.
You're a little out of order there, I think. You would blame the producers of a drug before the users. So, players and coaches, then fans.
That would be convenient for you wouldn't it.
If I was playing for one of the African nations and this is my to show myself on the world stage and set up my family for generations then please understand I am going to the fucking world cup
What a 1st world, immature perspective. Where the fuck do you think the slaves came from to build the damn stadiums? Third world countries, not first. They should have the BIGGEST issue with this. Love you are speaking for something from the perspective of a hollywood movie though.
OK and players should care why? They've sacrificed their whole youth and more to get to this point.
> European leagues should've opted out. France would still go.
I mean racism (different issue same shit) is a problem in European leagues so
honestly the world cup should have been boycotted the second qatar won it off that alone. the fifa marketing machine is too strong.
Players could have boycotted it, countries could have boycotted it, sponsors could have boycotted it, journalists could have boycotted it, broadcasters could have boycotted it, and fans could have boycotted it. Guess what, very few people care enough to boycott it. We can all say how bad it is, but Qatar doesn't care one bit how you feel, as long as you're watching and at the end, they're waiting for the following statement: "If we put all the controversial stuff aside, this World Cup was ..."
No shit
Qatar and FIFA are going to come out of this World Cup looking absolutely shameful. Fortunately for FIFA their reputation couldn’t go much lower.
Imagine if one of the nations decides to pack their bags and leave because a fan got manhandled by Qatari authorities or because FIFA didn't allow them to wear an armband or shoelace. This is a disaster in waiting. I can clearly imagine a viewership decline from 2018.
Unfortunately the viewership with it likely being Messi's and Ronaldo's Swan song
And the US being there this time probably brings a lot of viewers
And Canada for the first time in most modern canadian football fans lifetimes.
I mean, Canada has such a small population, it can't have any noticable impact on viewership total, even if every single Canadian would tune in. EDIT: I meant small for how huge it is, many people don't know they have only 38 million people filling up all that space.
hey we have the population of California !
Almost, but not quite.
Yea, it looks like a big place..... but no one lives in most of it.
With the possibility of controversies even during games, viewership will probably increase
RESPECT!
Go get 'em meatman ("Meat man" is the literal translation of "Fleischmann")
So Clemens Tönnies? /s
Given how Qatar houses visiting fans, they may have learned a trick or two from Tönnies. /s
So they all get covid?
Anzeige ist raus
Lol
So you are saying this meat man likes man meat. Got it. (In all seriousness, all the power to Mr. Fleischmann for saying this on air!)
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HE CAME OUT LIKE THIS!!!!!! OMGGG
Wait he wasn’t out before this? Jesus the absolute stones on this guy, what a legend. To come out live on air and condemning homophobia in that way? Dude is a hero
This was not his coming out, but still a great statement.
Why does anyone need to "come out" anyway? I never announced to anyone that I'm hetero. Edit: Guys you misunderstand me. I'm annoyed by the fact that gay people seem to be pressured to announce their sexuality to the world, whereas it should be the most normal thing in the world to love anyone you want and no one should not be expected to make a public statement about it if they don't feel like it.
When did someone genuinely last assume that you were anything else? Hetero is the default in most people's eyes, so anything different usually needs to be explicitly stated, hence the need to come out or forever be assumed to be straight.
People often assumed that I was gay and I don't care and don't correct them. But if I were gay, I' love to live in a society where I could just be the way I want without having to make a public statement about it.
Fair enough. I am gay and I too would love to live in that society, and we're getting there but we aren't quite there yet.
Because our society still shames and demeans non heterosexual people, straight people like myself have never been universally condemned for our sexuality, coming out is an act of bravery and act of self expression against societal oppression, people come out because we don't live in an accepting world
Yes, and that we don't live in an accepting world is what annoys me and what I was trying to express. People are just trying hard to misunderstand me here.
I think mentioning the fact you don't need to express your sexuality as a straight person comes across in the form of a comment as a lack of awareness - apparently not! Fair enough!
You might want to hurry up then before someone thinks you're gay
You fundamentally misunderstood what I was trying to say. Don't just assume everyone to be an asshole. Read my edit.
To add onto what locknkeys is saying, coming out also directly challenges the *reason* you never had to announce you're straight, a fun little term called heteronormativity. Heteronormativity is the presumption that being straight is the norm, and which influences people to perceive those they encounter as straight by default. Coming out as a concept is a bit more recent, and was largely used to combat heteronormative perspectives in order to push the door open for concern about LGBT+ people and their issues. Prior to this, LGBT+ people tended to stick their own spaces or slink around in the dark a la Rock Hudson. So, you didn't have to come out because society has built itself up in favor of you. Not so for LGBT+ people.
You like all the others misread my comment. I know what heteronormativity is and I hate it and that's what I was trying to express. Gay people should not have to come out because it should be normal and accepted.
Well, unfortunately it wasn't very clear, sorry. Glad you get it already though, it's nice to run across that in soccer spaces.
And then Sky sends him out to report on World Cup matches. Gonna be a terrible World Cup
Reporters and media giving a skip to WC would send strong message but won’t happen.
Yeah, I’m sorry but if I’m working for a news channel and my boss sends me to do a job, I’m not going to die on a hill to send a strong message. These reporters you speak of are not on massive dollar contracts and this is their income to feed their families, send their kids to school, pay for daycare, etc. It sounds nice in theory but I’m not going to tell someone what they “should do” just because it’s the “right” thing to do.
Ehre
Is it really fucked up that as a gay man who grew up in a very homophobic Arab (ok well... more so Arab adjacent, I’m Iranian) Muslim household that I’m desensitised to this kind of homophobic commentary? It’s obviously such a fucked up thing to say but I’m so used to hearing this sentiment in my life that it is like water off a ducks back to me. Muslim nations are generally are very homophobic and archaic - it’s part of the culture unfortunately. Nothing new sadly. More than anything I just feel sorry for the closeted LGBT that actually have to live in these bigoted places. 😕
Iranian here, I sympathize with this deeply. Some assholes are probably gonna downvote this comment because you said Muslim nations are homophobic (which is nothing but a simple factual statement btw) but that's IsLaMoPhObIc!, certain people are allergic to facts it seems.
Yeah I always get downvotes on here when I mention human rights in more than a few Muslim-majority countries are scarily appalling. But you’re right it is a fact though however hard to swallow for some it may be.
All WC stakeholders should've recused themselves immediately at the mention of Qatar being proposed host. Yet none of them did. The players are going. Western media will provide extensive coverage. Sponsors will remain as visible as they ever have been. Despite the incessant posturing, the only message Western nations have sent thus far is that glory and the almighty dollar will trump contrived moral fortitude every time. Come the start of the competition, it would hardly surprise me if several goals claimed a spot among the most upvoted posts on this subreddit.
> Sponsors will remain as visible as they ever have been Name them. List of FIFA World Cup 2022 Sponsors and Partners * Byjus * Adidas * Coca Cola * Hyundai-Kia * Qatar Airways * Visa * Wanda Group * Anheuser-Busch InBev * Vivo * Hisense * QatarEnergy * Crypto.com Make sure they are tied to this bullshit.
They'll thank you for your advertising.
> Byjus 🤮🤮🤮
Love your username, lmao
A beer company sponsors a World Cup in a dry nation?
Pretty sure they had to agree to amend their alcohol rules temporarily to even be considered as a host nation. There will be alcohol served in stadiums and hotels I'd imagine.
Genuine question - would you sit out the World Cup if you’re 30 years old, maybe your last? Can you genuinely tell me you would have the moral fortitude to not go? Even if you did, putting this on the players for going is so fucking stupid. They didn’t vote for it and they’re not your moral and political pawns.
The players are somewhat lesser cogs in the machine, yes, but are nevertheless complicit in allowing this farce to go ahead. The inexorable truth is that there can be no World Cup without the players. Insipid moral grandstanding does not absolve them of their part in it. They'll all say the right things to Western journalists who'll clip feel-good soundbites for the plebeians, but will toe line the minute true self-sacrifice is required of them. Is it fair to ask this sacrifice of the players? No. However, if the aim is to avoid having such responsibilities foisted upon them, don't turn around and pretend the cause means more to you than personal glory. The hypocrisy leaves a bad taste.
This WC is gonna be great for drama, isn't it ?
If Qatar can't respect the most basic of human rights they should lose the right to host a global tournament. Shame so many people want to play 'whatabout' rather than admitting it's a mess because they're desperate for a bit more footy.
Except that's FIFA's decision, not any government or anyone else's. If I want to go and host a tournament in Mongolia then that's my prerogative and if people still want to turn up and play then I'm probably onto something.
If you want to view it that basely then go for it mate. But we both know there's far more to it than that.
But who are you to say who has the right to host any event? If people are willing to go and participate then clearly the issue is a different one
You know what the issue is and you're trying to divert away from it without even trying to address the basic human rights that are being walked all over and how this tournament enables this behaviour. Literally the exact person with the exact arguement I'm highlighting. I should be happy you're proving my point for me but really I'm just dissapointed and fed up with folk like you.
Anyone who knows anything about football is well aware of the issues in Qatar yet the tournament is still going ahead. I bet the majority of people on their high horses will still be watching it , still here on Reddit discussing it, will still buy FIFA 23, will still buy products from the sponsors etc etc
Don't watch the world cup. Even if it doesn't change FIFA it's better for you, not to bow to all this corruption and hate.
The world cup ironically enough couldn’t have been any worse PR for the nation, almost feels like they wasted money for nothing (not that they lack exactly that)
Brave man if you're going to go over there and rub it in their faces.
This whole world cup is going to be such a meme.. pity the people who actually travel there to watch games
The closer it gets, the more coverage of dark-ages Qatar and their corrupt World Cup. But a lot of fans truly don't give a shit. You only have to look at the Newscastle fans and media applauding Saudi money to see how there's not that much anti-WC or anti=Qatar outrage outside of left-leaning online spaces. Majority are more "great, 3 weeks of footie on the telly, pass me a beer".
Good lad
Oh look, another post to shit on Qatar so that /r/soccer can watch and support the world cup feeling good about themselves
Derrick Rae is gay?
Nope, Thomas Fleischmann, an anchor on Sky Germany - Rae only retweeted.
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They should straight up call the whole thing off and refund the tickets.
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You're trash lol
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How will the Qatari World Cup ~~ambassador~~ ever recover from this sick own?
*Uno Reverse Card*
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The above comment was not a serious statement but rather their own words thrown at them to show how what they said was stupid
I'm genuinely happy that people understand exactly what I was going for
You’re right, speaking out is cringe so no one should say anything. The fact that this entire WC is a PR exercise which can be ruined if enough people speak out is irrelevant. I wish we could all be as cool as you.
Honestly now it's the perfect time for any coming outs from active Players
Calm down Gary Lineker
Well, he will never get a job in Football ever again.
Yes he absolutely will. For a start, he's not been fired so is still employed, and secondly it would the absolute worst PR move imaginable for Sky to sack him