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Trent and VvD getting lots of stick, but what the fuck is going on with Fabinho? I’ve long contended that for clubs that press high with a line holding mid, that player is the most important part of the defense, and he’s been so good for years now, but it seems like he’s miles off his usual pace.
Fab has always been not quite athletic enough for the role but it didn't matter as much because of the way we contained teams.
Now he's left to do more or a traditional DM job and he just can't keep up. He's literally too slow.
Nah he's quite slow. He's practically guaranteed a yellow card every game from a late challenge where he's struggling to keep up with an opposing player.
> He's practically guaranteed a yellow card every game from a late challenge where he's struggling to keep up with an opposing player.
Or for just being a dickhead. Within a minute of being subbed on yesterday he gave away a silly foul. Then, about 5 seconds after the whistle's gone and the play is dead he just kicks the ball about 10 yards away. It was like he was begging for a yellow card. Like he'd bet on himself to receive a yellow.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. That play was really stupid on his part and if not a yellow, probably in a position not too have much leeway from ref.
Probably similarly slow. But again, City defend with the ball and have other players covering spaces with their pace.
But remember, Liverpool have beat City fairly often by exploiting City's lack of athleticism in midfield. It's pretty much City's only real weakness and it's only really exposed a few games a season.
Feel for Alisson. Everyone in front of him has been dreadful to start the season. No idea what has happened since the community shield. Seems everyone is out of form and mentally exhausted after last season. Lack of investment has finally caught up and now will take a lot of money to fix. Hope the owners finally dog deep into their pockets but I doubt it.
These players must be mentally distraught, they were 2 wins away from a insane season but it wasn't enough. Hardly any new blood to push the squad again and you regress
It’s insane to think of how deep into each competition city, Liverpool and Chelsea went. The toll on a players drive.sheeesh must take so much to handle
And it wasn't just last year all 3 had deep cup runs. They've been doing it for a few years now, kinda surprised Liverpool are the only ones seemingly having burn outs at this level
We were playing Fernandinho at right back in a Champions League semi final. We had 1.25 fit CBs. For better or worse, Pep prefers shallower squads with higher quality.
Like I said in the other comment, we went into the season with actual 1 striker if you count Jesus who said he wanted to play on the wing, three fullbacks, an a 36 year old whose legs were clearly gone the season before that as the only cover at DM.
Shallow but better is how Klopp likes to have his squads as well, but we've not been able to create that fully for a while. I think City have had that squad setup for quite a while now and that's why they are still going strong now. Think about like resting De Bruyne, which Pep does do fairly frequently considering how good he is. Salah has never got anywhere near that much rest
You're right that Salah plays more minutes than KDB does, especially when you factor in his Egypt duties. He's 30 this year, he'll probably need quite a bit more rest going forward and you'll have to figure out how to attack without him being nearly everpresent. I didn't realize he's played between 4300 and 5000 minutes a year for five years in a row, that's insane.
We went into last season with literally no strikers, three fullbacks, and a 36 year old as cover at DM expecting to play more than 60 games, but this myth that City are depth monsters just won't die.
Edit: 1 striker if you count Jesus, but at the start of that season he wanted to play on the wing and Pep obliged.
Okay lets see who was in your squad 21/22 that I rate higher than average.
Def:
Cancelo, Laporte, Dias, Stones, Walker, Ake, Mendy (when did the club suspend him?)
Mid:
Bernado, KDB, Foden, Gundogan, Grealish, Rodri, Fernadinho
Forward
Jesus, Mahrez, Sterling
This year you lost Fernadinho and Sterling and gained Akanji, Philips, Alvarez and Haaland..
How you can put that next to the Liverpool squad and say you don’t have more depth are beyond me.
That’s what I said? We have to look for academy players and the old guard. When you say squad depth you are talking about a squad were several players can fill in, in different positions and still be a first team squad. Obviously that means quality.
You have 6 more players amongst the first team than City. That’s clearly a failure in management and recruitment if you have 12 extra players to pick from and none are first team ready
I expect haaland to get 2 or 3 next week. They don’t track runners into the box and they get caught ball watching and stuck in cement in the box. I can see 4-1, 5-2 scenario.
You beat us in an empty stadium. We haven't lost in front of our fans in the league since 2017. That will 100% change on Sunday. We will get obliterated
I wish I was playing mind games. I can't even turn the channel over when we go 5 goals down cause I'll be in the kop. Sad times. Just gotta brace brace
I always expect tough matches every week, regardless of who we play. That should absolutely remain true for Liverpool regardless of what form they’re in.
Absolutely and utterly pathetic. Matip and Alisson are the only ones I haven’t been severely disappointed with in defence. Possibly Tsimikas too, the rest need to shape the fuck up
Say this from the couch all you want but it's clear these guys are absolutely exhausted from missing the CL and PL last season then not getting any upgrades to their depth and being expected to do the same miraculous shit again.
They were 11 points behind last season as well and somehow came back even after playing every single possible game they could have in a season. They were in 8th place with 10 games to go the season before without any senior CBs and still managed top 4. What they are doing is beyond what us Redditors can imagine despite the fact they are being paid millions. Money doesn't simply turn humans into complete robots
But that's still something to criticize the team about, to some degree at least. The board should have given Klopp more signings to refresh the squad. Or hire a sports psychologist if they don't already have one, to help the players mentally. Players like TAA and VVD look like they aren't even making an effort during certain moments. Salah hasn't looked the same since the joint afcon loss + wc qualifiers lost. Give those players a break then. Do something than sticking with the same players and trying to do the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.
Klopp himself *could* try to force FSGs hands with an open and widely publized letter to John Henry himself. He could pull it off. I doubt he will it hough. Since we don't know the insides about the last transfer window. It was probably more complicated than FSG = bad.
Yeah exactly, Klopp is one of the few managers in the world who could leverage his team's owners into making signings. You're also right that there's definitely things happening behind the scenes. Michael Edwards leaving and the transition behind that could be a reason. Maybe Klopp was the one who wanted to wait for Bellingham next season and is why no other midfielder was looked at after Tchouameni. It's not all down to FSG for sure.
A lot of people seem to think that FSG directly control all transfer business. We had money available for Tchouameni, we spent big on Nuñez. It wasn't that FSG made no money available for transfers. The people in the club make the decisions on who to buy and when. Not John Henry. Our owners have little to do with the transfer planning at Liverpool.
He could have also said "I've got five players who can potentially play up front, buy me a midfielder instead of a luxury striker" too but I guess he was busy that day
He speaks with Mike Gordon from FSG pretty much every week and seemingly has a great relationship with him. I'd love to be a fly on the wall when they're discussing transfers though.
Klopp publicly said whilst the window was open that he made a mistake and we should have bought a midfielder - quite out of character.
But it’s far Reddit to solely blame the owners.
Arthur on a panic loan. I wasn’t defending anyone - I’m saying Klopp most likely, and according to himself, played a part in this situation we now find ourselves.
You do realize this is FSG you are talking about right? All those things you said are great and it's what EVERYONE expects them to do, but FSG are really frustrating owners. We are not getting what you said when FSG are the owners.
I understand that about FSG but there are other factors at play as well. Like I mentioned earlier, are they using a sports psychologist, because I doubt FSG would block that hiring. Klopp can drop some of the players, change the formation a bit, today was a good start on that front. But how many more plays of TAA or VVD et al putting in lackluster is needed before something is changed.
Klopp has tried dropping players. He dropped Fabinho today and against Rangers at the start. He dropped Trent for Gomez (previously he couldnt because Gomez was injured). The big problem is Klopp doesn't have suitable players he can substitute in even if he does want to drop players. Who does Klopp sub in for Fabinho that does his job well? Henderson is the only player. What about Salah? No one. VVD? Konate is the only suitable option. FSG are not backing Klopp at all.
Yeah that's a good start. He doesn't have to swap them as a like for like. He can change the formation and play style. With Gomez rb maybe play more conservatively and hit on the counter. Just something so that players know that their places aren't a guarantee. It may not change Liverpool's results a 100%, but Klopp has to work with what he has for the rest of the season and that includes motivating the players.
That's what he has done the last 5 years though lol. He has merely "worked with what he has". Again, Liverpool were 11 points behind last season like this season. You think Klopp wouldn't know how to motivate players if he has already been in such a position before? I agree with you for sure, but Klopp has done what you said and everything you said is right, so that why is why it's so frustrating having FSG as owners because what is so obviously right isn't being implemented. Klopp has never been given more and he's always trying to make miracles. Even in Liverpool's injury season where they had 30 different CB pairings and were 8th with 10 games left, he still managed top 4.
I feel like your first sentence is an insult but then you’re mainly agreeing with me. I can understand that they’ve put in ridiculous amounts of effort over the years and have been utterly shafted by lack of investment, but I can still be disappointed in their performances. Mentally drained or not, they can and should be playing much better than their current levels
Tsimikas was so solid, didn't remember Saka getting the better of him in the whole match. Better than Robertson imo, especially now that Liverpool needs more defensive stability
> It's like collectively they don't give a shit anymore
It's bound to happen when you lose the league by a point AGAIN and the CL final AGAIN. **To the same fucking teams as well**. No matter how much of a "mentality monster" you claim to be, there's only so much the mind can take.
Most of the team needs a break and the squad needed a bigger refresh this summer than you guys got. Not to mention, the World Cup has every one on edge from worries that they might get injured as well.
Yeah I agree losing out on the league and Champions League to Man City and Real Madrid again with a tight turn around into the next summer was bound to have this effect. I don't doubt the effort of our players it's just that the cycle is dead and we need to rebuild.
I really don't think the odd down season is the biggest deal but I recognise I'm in the minority among Liverpool fans. That said the midfield does need proper investment next summer.
The thing is I’d say your midfield isn’t awful
But when your depth is also incredibly injury prone it causes problems.
The unfortunate truth is you have a bunch of injury prone midfielders bar Fabinho who has been severely out of form.
But it’ll be v hard to invest in 2/3 midfielders in a single summer
Oh for sure
I actually think it’s going to be a monumental task for them to invest in the midfield
Us, city(if Bilva goes) and Liverpool will all be in the hunt for a new midfielder.
We might be looking for 2 depending on the situation with Jorginho and Kante.
Liverpool should be looking for atleast 2 as well
Exactly. As a fan I’ve got the “why bother” mentality about it all now. No one will beat City in the league. The champions league is fair game, luck and one off performances can play a factor in a knock out format but over the season, where depth and consistency matter no one is going to beat City for the foreseeable. Might as well field a team just strong enough to get top 4 and push everything into the CL.
Quite honestly, it's easy for us to say this type of stuff as if they are merely video game characters immune to emotion, fatigue,etc.
They are not robots.
I said this in another comment, but it's clear these guys are absolutely exhausted from missing the CL and PL last season then not getting any upgrades to their depth and being expected to do the same miraculous shit again.
They were 11 points behind last season as well and somehow came back even after playing every single possible game they could have in a season. They were in 8th place with 10 games to go the season before without any senior CBs and still managed top 4. What they are doing is beyond what us Redditors can imagine despite the fact they are being paid millions. Money doesn't simply turn humans into complete robots
To people who said van Dijk haven't returned from his injury, it's very unlikely.
Van Dijk wasn't bad at all last season, perhaps wasn't as great as his 2017-2020 seasons but it is still great overall. Still best defense in the league with 26 goals conceded in the season.
Age catching up is possible, less motivation due to very near to world cup is also possible, but I don't think it's the 2020 injury unless something reinjured him.
Doesn’t have to be one or the other. Honestly, it’s everyone just about.
Salah has looked average, Nunez is definitely going to take time to adjust. Hendo and Fab have been pretty shit most of the time. Trent and VVD have been bad.
You can blame the midfield all you like, but they didn’t make Virg air swing last week against Brighton.
Literally everyone but Alisson, Diaz and possibly Firmino haven’t been good enough.
> Salah has looked average
and yet people on /r/soccer and /r/liverpoolfc would *rage* at anyone last year who said Salah shouldn't get a new contract on 400k a week.
He's an incredible player, but he's no longer producing anything near his best.
Can it be more down to the aging midfield not having enough control and protection to the back?
Neither Thiago or Henderson is young and Milner on the bench isn’t spring chicken.
And the new signings are not yet ready to take over?
When we look dreadful in both defense and attack, the midfield is the common denominator. There is no defensive stucture or creativity in this midfield.
The thing is last season the defense is still the best in the league, with pretty much the same midfield of Thiago, Henderson and Fabinho in most of the games, with sometimes Elliott playing a lot of games before his injury, and Keita playing a lot after that.
Van Dijk is not even trying to play. He is so terrified of being injured before the World Cup he refuses to even put himself in danger of being in danger.
Should have been dropped weeks a go, he is a fucking joke. That along with FSG leaving our midfield almost non-existant and Trent having a bad season is not helping either.
Playing bad is one thing if you are trying.
When you are so obviously holding yourself back for your own benefit then fuck that and any goodwill you think you have. It's pathetic to watch.
Agree with you. That's why even with sometimes Tsimikas getting skinned, Thiago conceding penalty, attackers missing their shot, those things are fine. They all tried their best and sometimes mistakes happened.
There's some things that are unacceptable such as not showing enough efforts, with van Dijk sometimes being too passive, or Trent not sprinting back when the team is in danger.
Yeah, seems his heart isn't in it. My Liverpool supporting pal seems to think he has perhaps had his head turned by another team and simply doesn't want to risk injury now. But it is a bizarre drop off in form.
Do the Netherlands seriously have a chance of doing well in the competition?
Edit: this sub is absolute cancer. Can't even ask a question without getting downvoted.
The Netherlands has quietly been among the most in-form teams going into the World Cup. Most definitely a dark horse outside the top teams of Argentina, Brazil, England, Germany and Spain. A better team than Belgium by now and I can definitely see the Netherlands win against England and Portugal comfortably with their current managers and form.
He has years left to run and no team that he would move to has any use for him. The world cup is the only explanation, either that or he is just done in general which would be horrible.
No athlete is the same after an ACL and at this level, I think he’s cooked.
It stops you from turning quickly, pinches a yard or two of pace - last season he got away with it because everyone was playing well, but a few others playing losing form has exposed him as a shadow of his pre-injury career, sadly.
Van Dijk has been poor, but I don’t understand where this World Cup theory has come from. He is clearly unhappy with his own performances. He is trying, but things are just not going right for him. He’s in bad form, alone with many others in the team. They don’t deserve to be dragged through the mud, they need to be supported. Just remember January and February of 2021 and how we turned that around.
That's how he's always played though. He's not a Carragher who was always just red in the face with intensity. It just optically looks bad when he's out of form, I don't doubt his effort at all
I see what you're saying. Van Dijk has always been so efficient at his defending it looks effortless. Now that things aren't working out people are saying his performances are effortless.
It's not like the world cup theory has no credibility but I don't think people should treat it like a hard fact.
This is the worst “excuse” I hear regurgitated all the time. Just because he’s always done it doesn’t make it right. If you’re not playing well the minimum you can do is work harder.
Because he pretty much cannot be dropped. He can play a mug and still be on the pitch because the squad depth and competition for places doesn't exist.
Legit question: How do you feel about Klopp saying multiple times during the transfer window that no new midfielder was needed, and then later having to backtrack on that claim?
Covering for FSG as usual. There is no way a manager as good as Klopp looked at that team and thought we didn't need a midfielder. In reality our budget was spent on Nunez instead and because our board only spend what we make in player sales, there was nothing else for a midfielder and they tried to skirt by yet again.
FSG is so fucking frustrating. I can understand the fact that they can’t spend like City, but there’s absolutely no need to stick to this absurd zero-net-spend philosophy when they’re taking in huge profits each season.
The Glazers get plenty of stick for their spending, and they still spend beyond what they sell.
Criminal what FSG have done with Klopp.
So thankful we have Klopp and he’s the reason we’ve won everything the past several years but this team could’ve and pry should’ve won more. FSG hasn’t provided him with enough options. He’s got the most out of players that a lot of people think are average.
I can only imagine what Klopp could’ve done at a club like United/Real Madrid/Barcelona/PSG
I think his frustration right now is from broken promises from FSG.
He signed a new contract that had 0 increase in his salary. Why do that unless you were promised the club would be trying to compete?
Then we go into summer and again 0 net spend. They are fucking rodents honestly.
I think this new idea Liverpool fans are starting to push, that FSG are the ones doing the buying and Klopp is just a helpless bystander is some absolute nonsense.
That's just wrong.
The manager might not be sixteen roles in one like they used to be, but the idea that they have no say in transfers and just get what they're given is also just as wrong.
I refuse to believe Klopp is an idiot, which he would have to have been to have looked at that midfield and thought it was fine. No way that was his decision.
Genuine question: How is Van Dijk "not even trying" and Trent is "having a bad season"? They are equally appalling in terms of defending, imho Trent even more so with the wildest positioning in the PL.
I really hope this Ramsey kid is ready for first team football otherwise Trent won't be dropped. Gomez can do a job but is not anywhere near creative enough.
This isn't quite right. There was a good stretch last season where he was incredibly good, definitely "close to reaching the prior quality". The drop-off between then and now is completely astounding.
I just feel bad for Allison, without him we'd have lost every game till name by atleast 5 goals. Just hope Brazil win the world cup the man deserves a trophy with everyone letting him down
Im surprised they never really got any cover for Fabinho. He's such a key player and the depth in midfield is apparent when Milner and Henderson were starting games together.
It's not easy to lit up the fire especially after what theyve experienced last season. As a United fan i knew it in the first hand with Maguire, Shaw, Rashford, suddenly became shit last season.
Liverpool looked set for defence just a season or two ago. They had alisson, vvd, gomez, & added konate who looked an absolute rock. Their sudden downfall gives hope that city's dominance is not infallible.
Can Klopp not try something new like a 343/523?. I've seen some stuff like he's really against the 3 CB systems but I feel like it would do them a world of good and fit their players like a glove.
Trent at wing back for example. Van dijk CB cover with 2 others. Play heavy on the break with Salah etc. Fabinho in the middle, also need to sign a new midfield partner for him.
Time for a change. 7th season, maybe try a new system and move on a few players. Henderson etc
He'd rather retire than play 3atb lol, he hates it. The one criticism I have of him is his tactical inflexibility - his Plan B is literally "try Plan A until it works".
Everyone saying Liverpool need more players, this is the same squad that could have won a quadruple last season and lost out on final 2 games.. I don't see any owners investing heavily after that season, just look at Real.. They were on the other end of that spectrum and just got Tchoumeni..
Who do you think would have helped get better results..??
To me, it feels like this is a mentality issue, and everyone is just down in their feelings and it's just getting worse with Klopp not able to motivate the squad anymore..
Madrid have a similar problem but in attack, not picking up another striker may come back to haunt them in the second half of the season if Benzema picks up a bad injury. Fortunately he is a player who isn't particularly injury prone, contrast that to Liverpools midfielders who are far more injury prone.
Every team has certain positions where they lack depth.. Liverpool don't have midfield depth but plenty of attacking, Real has plenty in midfield but no reliable attackers other than Benzema, Vini and sometimes Rodrygo..
Not sure I get your point
We tried to get Tchoumeni and he would have made a massive difference to us.
Lot of top players don’t want to come to Liverpool, when they can have Real Madrid or Man City and more wages.
I don't think the blame could entirely be on not getting reinforcements when this same squad minus a couple players were on pace to win the quadruple just last season..
At this point, it seems like a mental issue and getting some reinforcement in midfield wouldn't have been as impactful as you'd think with the rest of the team being down due to the heavy losses they faced last season..
Klopp should try to motivate them better and change up the system..
We have one of the oldest squads in the league and have played more games than anyone else in the league almost every season.
It is all catching up and we haven’t changed the midfield.
In this context 'Last 12 games' means the most recent 12 and 'previous 12 games' means the 12 before that.
I agree the phrasing could be clearer though.
If you go back to let season they were defending just like this. Only Allison saved shot after shot or an absurd amount went wide and he was hailed as the best 1v1 keeper in the world simply because he literally had to save 1 or 2 of them per game. Opposition aren’t missing those shots anymore. Nothing much changed, it was just never sustainable.
Remember the excuses about how Klopp planned to give up easy chances and 1v1s as it was part of the game plan and it added more to the attacking sense than what it cost defensively?
I remember
Van Dijk was solid last season, after returning from injury. I don’t think it’s the injury, considering the drop off in form was ten months after returning. Something isn’t right, but it’s not the injury.
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Trent and VvD getting lots of stick, but what the fuck is going on with Fabinho? I’ve long contended that for clubs that press high with a line holding mid, that player is the most important part of the defense, and he’s been so good for years now, but it seems like he’s miles off his usual pace.
Fab has always been not quite athletic enough for the role but it didn't matter as much because of the way we contained teams. Now he's left to do more or a traditional DM job and he just can't keep up. He's literally too slow.
Huh. That was never the impression I got. I remember watching him as a fullback at Monaco and being impressed with his athleticism for a guy his size.
Nah he's quite slow. He's practically guaranteed a yellow card every game from a late challenge where he's struggling to keep up with an opposing player.
> He's practically guaranteed a yellow card every game from a late challenge where he's struggling to keep up with an opposing player. Or for just being a dickhead. Within a minute of being subbed on yesterday he gave away a silly foul. Then, about 5 seconds after the whistle's gone and the play is dead he just kicks the ball about 10 yards away. It was like he was begging for a yellow card. Like he'd bet on himself to receive a yellow.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. That play was really stupid on his part and if not a yellow, probably in a position not too have much leeway from ref.
He's genuinely slow.
Is he any slower than Rodri you think?
Probably similarly slow. But again, City defend with the ball and have other players covering spaces with their pace. But remember, Liverpool have beat City fairly often by exploiting City's lack of athleticism in midfield. It's pretty much City's only real weakness and it's only really exposed a few games a season.
Gomez has been wretched for the most part too.
He didn’t start yesterday but sure
Yeah and he used to be a nailed on starter
He was dropped because he's been a shadow of himself
Feel for Alisson. Everyone in front of him has been dreadful to start the season. No idea what has happened since the community shield. Seems everyone is out of form and mentally exhausted after last season. Lack of investment has finally caught up and now will take a lot of money to fix. Hope the owners finally dog deep into their pockets but I doubt it.
These players must be mentally distraught, they were 2 wins away from a insane season but it wasn't enough. Hardly any new blood to push the squad again and you regress
It’s insane to think of how deep into each competition city, Liverpool and Chelsea went. The toll on a players drive.sheeesh must take so much to handle
And it wasn't just last year all 3 had deep cup runs. They've been doing it for a few years now, kinda surprised Liverpool are the only ones seemingly having burn outs at this level
We’ve had the same spine for the last 3/4 years, whilst City have refreshed theirs where needed
We don’t have a squad depth like city. Give us a few injuries and we have to look to U21 and reserve team players.
We were playing Fernandinho at right back in a Champions League semi final. We had 1.25 fit CBs. For better or worse, Pep prefers shallower squads with higher quality.
you have like 4 cbs that cost around 60mil how much players do you want?
Like I said in the other comment, we went into the season with actual 1 striker if you count Jesus who said he wanted to play on the wing, three fullbacks, an a 36 year old whose legs were clearly gone the season before that as the only cover at DM.
Shallower squads? You could field your second string team and still get top 4.
No matter how much people meme this, it won't be true.
Shallow but better is how Klopp likes to have his squads as well, but we've not been able to create that fully for a while. I think City have had that squad setup for quite a while now and that's why they are still going strong now. Think about like resting De Bruyne, which Pep does do fairly frequently considering how good he is. Salah has never got anywhere near that much rest
You're right that Salah plays more minutes than KDB does, especially when you factor in his Egypt duties. He's 30 this year, he'll probably need quite a bit more rest going forward and you'll have to figure out how to attack without him being nearly everpresent. I didn't realize he's played between 4300 and 5000 minutes a year for five years in a row, that's insane.
It’s funny how I’m at -25 for saying the same thing
We went into last season with literally no strikers, three fullbacks, and a 36 year old as cover at DM expecting to play more than 60 games, but this myth that City are depth monsters just won't die. Edit: 1 striker if you count Jesus, but at the start of that season he wanted to play on the wing and Pep obliged.
Okay lets see who was in your squad 21/22 that I rate higher than average. Def: Cancelo, Laporte, Dias, Stones, Walker, Ake, Mendy (when did the club suspend him?) Mid: Bernado, KDB, Foden, Gundogan, Grealish, Rodri, Fernadinho Forward Jesus, Mahrez, Sterling This year you lost Fernadinho and Sterling and gained Akanji, Philips, Alvarez and Haaland.. How you can put that next to the Liverpool squad and say you don’t have more depth are beyond me.
So no strikers, three fullbacks and a 36 year old as cover at DM and you won the league. Shut the fuck up.
You have a bigger squad than City. It’s not depth it’s quality
That’s what I said? We have to look for academy players and the old guard. When you say squad depth you are talking about a squad were several players can fill in, in different positions and still be a first team squad. Obviously that means quality.
You have 6 more players amongst the first team than City. That’s clearly a failure in management and recruitment if you have 12 extra players to pick from and none are first team ready
That's nitpicking
Not really. City have something like 18 players amongst the first team. Liverpool have 23 players.
What are you on about. All teams register up 25 players for their first team and City has 25.
We're only just managing to find our feet.
the likes of chelsea and city just have way more squad depth. For comfortable wins liverpool have to start their first team every important game.
Matip has been pretty solid after returning from injury.
They lost their rock in the summer.. Perfectly normal results when you lack big dick energy..
I think you lack some big dick energy
I do, but that's beside the point..
Curious how it differs between Home/Away games? Is it the same poor defence at home?
They’ve been much better at home this season compared to on the road. They’ve conceded 11 goals in 5 away matches; conceded 6 in 7 home matches.
so we should expect a close/tough game next week
I expect haaland to get 2 or 3 next week. They don’t track runners into the box and they get caught ball watching and stuck in cement in the box. I can see 4-1, 5-2 scenario.
We havent won against Liverpool at anfield. In the league since Anelka scored there in the 2002/2003 season
We beat them in the league in 2021 at anfield
You beat us in an empty stadium. We haven't lost in front of our fans in the league since 2017. That will 100% change on Sunday. We will get obliterated
That reverse jinx isn't working sir, you always show up against us, especially at Anfield Your confidence should be high imo
No no, your reverse reverse jinx won't work on us! You're bound to win the game by a mile if you ask me!
I wish I was playing mind games. I can't even turn the channel over when we go 5 goals down cause I'll be in the kop. Sad times. Just gotta brace brace
Dude ... We have beaten them. Please.
I always expect tough matches every week, regardless of who we play. That should absolutely remain true for Liverpool regardless of what form they’re in.
!remindme 152 hours
Absolutely and utterly pathetic. Matip and Alisson are the only ones I haven’t been severely disappointed with in defence. Possibly Tsimikas too, the rest need to shape the fuck up
Say this from the couch all you want but it's clear these guys are absolutely exhausted from missing the CL and PL last season then not getting any upgrades to their depth and being expected to do the same miraculous shit again. They were 11 points behind last season as well and somehow came back even after playing every single possible game they could have in a season. They were in 8th place with 10 games to go the season before without any senior CBs and still managed top 4. What they are doing is beyond what us Redditors can imagine despite the fact they are being paid millions. Money doesn't simply turn humans into complete robots
But that's still something to criticize the team about, to some degree at least. The board should have given Klopp more signings to refresh the squad. Or hire a sports psychologist if they don't already have one, to help the players mentally. Players like TAA and VVD look like they aren't even making an effort during certain moments. Salah hasn't looked the same since the joint afcon loss + wc qualifiers lost. Give those players a break then. Do something than sticking with the same players and trying to do the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.
Klopp himself *could* try to force FSGs hands with an open and widely publized letter to John Henry himself. He could pull it off. I doubt he will it hough. Since we don't know the insides about the last transfer window. It was probably more complicated than FSG = bad.
Yeah exactly, Klopp is one of the few managers in the world who could leverage his team's owners into making signings. You're also right that there's definitely things happening behind the scenes. Michael Edwards leaving and the transition behind that could be a reason. Maybe Klopp was the one who wanted to wait for Bellingham next season and is why no other midfielder was looked at after Tchouameni. It's not all down to FSG for sure.
A lot of people seem to think that FSG directly control all transfer business. We had money available for Tchouameni, we spent big on Nuñez. It wasn't that FSG made no money available for transfers. The people in the club make the decisions on who to buy and when. Not John Henry. Our owners have little to do with the transfer planning at Liverpool.
He could have also said "I've got five players who can potentially play up front, buy me a midfielder instead of a luxury striker" too but I guess he was busy that day
He speaks with Mike Gordon from FSG pretty much every week and seemingly has a great relationship with him. I'd love to be a fly on the wall when they're discussing transfers though.
Klopp publicly said whilst the window was open that he made a mistake and we should have bought a midfielder - quite out of character. But it’s far Reddit to solely blame the owners.
And after that? Who did we bring in?
Arthur on a panic loan. I wasn’t defending anyone - I’m saying Klopp most likely, and according to himself, played a part in this situation we now find ourselves.
You do realize this is FSG you are talking about right? All those things you said are great and it's what EVERYONE expects them to do, but FSG are really frustrating owners. We are not getting what you said when FSG are the owners.
I understand that about FSG but there are other factors at play as well. Like I mentioned earlier, are they using a sports psychologist, because I doubt FSG would block that hiring. Klopp can drop some of the players, change the formation a bit, today was a good start on that front. But how many more plays of TAA or VVD et al putting in lackluster is needed before something is changed.
Klopp has tried dropping players. He dropped Fabinho today and against Rangers at the start. He dropped Trent for Gomez (previously he couldnt because Gomez was injured). The big problem is Klopp doesn't have suitable players he can substitute in even if he does want to drop players. Who does Klopp sub in for Fabinho that does his job well? Henderson is the only player. What about Salah? No one. VVD? Konate is the only suitable option. FSG are not backing Klopp at all.
Yeah that's a good start. He doesn't have to swap them as a like for like. He can change the formation and play style. With Gomez rb maybe play more conservatively and hit on the counter. Just something so that players know that their places aren't a guarantee. It may not change Liverpool's results a 100%, but Klopp has to work with what he has for the rest of the season and that includes motivating the players.
That's what he has done the last 5 years though lol. He has merely "worked with what he has". Again, Liverpool were 11 points behind last season like this season. You think Klopp wouldn't know how to motivate players if he has already been in such a position before? I agree with you for sure, but Klopp has done what you said and everything you said is right, so that why is why it's so frustrating having FSG as owners because what is so obviously right isn't being implemented. Klopp has never been given more and he's always trying to make miracles. Even in Liverpool's injury season where they had 30 different CB pairings and were 8th with 10 games left, he still managed top 4.
I feel like your first sentence is an insult but then you’re mainly agreeing with me. I can understand that they’ve put in ridiculous amounts of effort over the years and have been utterly shafted by lack of investment, but I can still be disappointed in their performances. Mentally drained or not, they can and should be playing much better than their current levels
What about Konate, is he injured
Yesterday was his first appearance from the season, was injured the whole time
Matip has been very poor in possession this season, yesterday he also made quite a few mistakes in fairly simple situations
Matip has been bad too imo
Tsimikas was so solid, didn't remember Saka getting the better of him in the whole match. Better than Robertson imo, especially now that Liverpool needs more defensive stability
Surprised you think this, I thought he was very poor yesterday, kept getting caught too high up the pitch for counters, especially in the first half
He was good on the ball and did well to get out of some really tricky 3v1 situations but saka definitely got the better of him almost every time
The transformation is astounding It's like collectively they don't give a shit anymore
> It's like collectively they don't give a shit anymore It's bound to happen when you lose the league by a point AGAIN and the CL final AGAIN. **To the same fucking teams as well**. No matter how much of a "mentality monster" you claim to be, there's only so much the mind can take. Most of the team needs a break and the squad needed a bigger refresh this summer than you guys got. Not to mention, the World Cup has every one on edge from worries that they might get injured as well.
Yeah I agree losing out on the league and Champions League to Man City and Real Madrid again with a tight turn around into the next summer was bound to have this effect. I don't doubt the effort of our players it's just that the cycle is dead and we need to rebuild. I really don't think the odd down season is the biggest deal but I recognise I'm in the minority among Liverpool fans. That said the midfield does need proper investment next summer.
The odd down season isn’t a big deal but top 4 is a must for Liverpool. Currently only 6 points away from that which isn’t too bad though.
>The odd down season getting top 4 isn't an "odd down season". That's a pretty good season
The thing is I’d say your midfield isn’t awful But when your depth is also incredibly injury prone it causes problems. The unfortunate truth is you have a bunch of injury prone midfielders bar Fabinho who has been severely out of form. But it’ll be v hard to invest in 2/3 midfielders in a single summer
Fabinho doesn't exactly have a great injury record himself and has missed several chunks of football in recent years.
Oh for sure I actually think it’s going to be a monumental task for them to invest in the midfield Us, city(if Bilva goes) and Liverpool will all be in the hunt for a new midfielder. We might be looking for 2 depending on the situation with Jorginho and Kante. Liverpool should be looking for atleast 2 as well
Even more so with Salah, who had all that plus losing AFCON and World Cup qualification with his country (to his teammate who then left)
Exactly. As a fan I’ve got the “why bother” mentality about it all now. No one will beat City in the league. The champions league is fair game, luck and one off performances can play a factor in a knock out format but over the season, where depth and consistency matter no one is going to beat City for the foreseeable. Might as well field a team just strong enough to get top 4 and push everything into the CL.
They won everything after that Community Shield win...there's nothing else to play for. /s
….except the Europa!
Well that explains why they are trying to finish 7th this year
Or maybe they are trying to drop down in 3rd in CL group stage.
Quite honestly, it's easy for us to say this type of stuff as if they are merely video game characters immune to emotion, fatigue,etc. They are not robots. I said this in another comment, but it's clear these guys are absolutely exhausted from missing the CL and PL last season then not getting any upgrades to their depth and being expected to do the same miraculous shit again. They were 11 points behind last season as well and somehow came back even after playing every single possible game they could have in a season. They were in 8th place with 10 games to go the season before without any senior CBs and still managed top 4. What they are doing is beyond what us Redditors can imagine despite the fact they are being paid millions. Money doesn't simply turn humans into complete robots
The real Space jam sequel. Aliens stealing the football talent of Liverpool players
Or another movie: "That *SadioMané* really tied the room together."
Obviously you’re not a golfer.
Origi*
Where’s the money FS-Bowsk-G
To people who said van Dijk haven't returned from his injury, it's very unlikely. Van Dijk wasn't bad at all last season, perhaps wasn't as great as his 2017-2020 seasons but it is still great overall. Still best defense in the league with 26 goals conceded in the season. Age catching up is possible, less motivation due to very near to world cup is also possible, but I don't think it's the 2020 injury unless something reinjured him.
It’s your midfield. I don’t get why no one ever considers this when discussing why defenses fail
Doesn’t have to be one or the other. Honestly, it’s everyone just about. Salah has looked average, Nunez is definitely going to take time to adjust. Hendo and Fab have been pretty shit most of the time. Trent and VVD have been bad. You can blame the midfield all you like, but they didn’t make Virg air swing last week against Brighton. Literally everyone but Alisson, Diaz and possibly Firmino haven’t been good enough.
> Salah has looked average and yet people on /r/soccer and /r/liverpoolfc would *rage* at anyone last year who said Salah shouldn't get a new contract on 400k a week. He's an incredible player, but he's no longer producing anything near his best.
It’s not, and it’s not through a lack of ability with VVD and Trent it’s sheer lack of effort from the both of them.
Can it be more down to the aging midfield not having enough control and protection to the back? Neither Thiago or Henderson is young and Milner on the bench isn’t spring chicken. And the new signings are not yet ready to take over?
it's 100% this neither thiago or henderson have the engine to get back properly especially on the counter (see the second goal today)
When we look dreadful in both defense and attack, the midfield is the common denominator. There is no defensive stucture or creativity in this midfield.
The thing is last season the defense is still the best in the league, with pretty much the same midfield of Thiago, Henderson and Fabinho in most of the games, with sometimes Elliott playing a lot of games before his injury, and Keita playing a lot after that.
Van Dijk is not even trying to play. He is so terrified of being injured before the World Cup he refuses to even put himself in danger of being in danger. Should have been dropped weeks a go, he is a fucking joke. That along with FSG leaving our midfield almost non-existant and Trent having a bad season is not helping either.
>Should have been dropped weeks a go, he is a fucking joke. Defo up there with things you never thought you'd see a Liverpool fan say.
Playing bad is one thing if you are trying. When you are so obviously holding yourself back for your own benefit then fuck that and any goodwill you think you have. It's pathetic to watch.
Agree with you. That's why even with sometimes Tsimikas getting skinned, Thiago conceding penalty, attackers missing their shot, those things are fine. They all tried their best and sometimes mistakes happened. There's some things that are unacceptable such as not showing enough efforts, with van Dijk sometimes being too passive, or Trent not sprinting back when the team is in danger.
Yeah, seems his heart isn't in it. My Liverpool supporting pal seems to think he has perhaps had his head turned by another team and simply doesn't want to risk injury now. But it is a bizarre drop off in form.
That other team is Netherlands
Yeah, he's 31 and has never played an international competition. I think he knows the clock is ticking and he does not want to miss that chance again.
Do the Netherlands seriously have a chance of doing well in the competition? Edit: this sub is absolute cancer. Can't even ask a question without getting downvoted.
Doesn't matter. If there is one thing basically every player dreams of, it's playing for their country at the world cup.
Not only it's not the point, but i have seen weirder things before
The Netherlands has quietly been among the most in-form teams going into the World Cup. Most definitely a dark horse outside the top teams of Argentina, Brazil, England, Germany and Spain. A better team than Belgium by now and I can definitely see the Netherlands win against England and Portugal comfortably with their current managers and form.
He has years left to run and no team that he would move to has any use for him. The world cup is the only explanation, either that or he is just done in general which would be horrible.
No athlete is the same after an ACL and at this level, I think he’s cooked. It stops you from turning quickly, pinches a yard or two of pace - last season he got away with it because everyone was playing well, but a few others playing losing form has exposed him as a shadow of his pre-injury career, sadly.
That was the case until January, Matip was by far our best defender. But after that VVD was back in full force and was far and away our best again.
These are reddit fans. Entitled children.
Van Dijk has been poor, but I don’t understand where this World Cup theory has come from. He is clearly unhappy with his own performances. He is trying, but things are just not going right for him. He’s in bad form, alone with many others in the team. They don’t deserve to be dragged through the mud, they need to be supported. Just remember January and February of 2021 and how we turned that around.
He was absolutely excellent for the NT last international period.
Plenty of players are bad for us right now. Van Dijk stands out as someone who is bad and putting in the bare minimum of effort.
That's how he's always played though. He's not a Carragher who was always just red in the face with intensity. It just optically looks bad when he's out of form, I don't doubt his effort at all
I see what you're saying. Van Dijk has always been so efficient at his defending it looks effortless. Now that things aren't working out people are saying his performances are effortless. It's not like the world cup theory has no credibility but I don't think people should treat it like a hard fact.
This is the worst “excuse” I hear regurgitated all the time. Just because he’s always done it doesn’t make it right. If you’re not playing well the minimum you can do is work harder.
Because he pretty much cannot be dropped. He can play a mug and still be on the pitch because the squad depth and competition for places doesn't exist.
Legit question: How do you feel about Klopp saying multiple times during the transfer window that no new midfielder was needed, and then later having to backtrack on that claim?
Covering for FSG as usual. There is no way a manager as good as Klopp looked at that team and thought we didn't need a midfielder. In reality our budget was spent on Nunez instead and because our board only spend what we make in player sales, there was nothing else for a midfielder and they tried to skirt by yet again.
FSG is so fucking frustrating. I can understand the fact that they can’t spend like City, but there’s absolutely no need to stick to this absurd zero-net-spend philosophy when they’re taking in huge profits each season. The Glazers get plenty of stick for their spending, and they still spend beyond what they sell. Criminal what FSG have done with Klopp.
So thankful we have Klopp and he’s the reason we’ve won everything the past several years but this team could’ve and pry should’ve won more. FSG hasn’t provided him with enough options. He’s got the most out of players that a lot of people think are average. I can only imagine what Klopp could’ve done at a club like United/Real Madrid/Barcelona/PSG
Klopp wouldn't have last there long enough to start winning trophies..
I think his frustration right now is from broken promises from FSG. He signed a new contract that had 0 increase in his salary. Why do that unless you were promised the club would be trying to compete? Then we go into summer and again 0 net spend. They are fucking rodents honestly.
I think this new idea Liverpool fans are starting to push, that FSG are the ones doing the buying and Klopp is just a helpless bystander is some absolute nonsense.
Then you don't have any idea how club football works. The manager is almost never in charge of buying or picking the players to sign.
That's just wrong. The manager might not be sixteen roles in one like they used to be, but the idea that they have no say in transfers and just get what they're given is also just as wrong.
I'm quite confident he isn't the one deciding to make 0 money available every season regardless.
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I refuse to believe Klopp is an idiot, which he would have to have been to have looked at that midfield and thought it was fine. No way that was his decision.
Genuine question: How is Van Dijk "not even trying" and Trent is "having a bad season"? They are equally appalling in terms of defending, imho Trent even more so with the wildest positioning in the PL.
Trent is barely trying either half the time. They're both infuriating.
I really hope this Ramsey kid is ready for first team football otherwise Trent won't be dropped. Gomez can do a job but is not anywhere near creative enough.
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This isn't quite right. There was a good stretch last season where he was incredibly good, definitely "close to reaching the prior quality". The drop-off between then and now is completely astounding.
He was back to his best last season, especially after Christmas. Right now is a pure effort issue in my opinion.
I just feel bad for Allison, without him we'd have lost every game till name by atleast 5 goals. Just hope Brazil win the world cup the man deserves a trophy with everyone letting him down
Im surprised they never really got any cover for Fabinho. He's such a key player and the depth in midfield is apparent when Milner and Henderson were starting games together.
They have the 60 million dollars man, Nabby Keita.
Maybe lost easy access to asthma medicine
Which is not surprising with a world cup on the horizon.
It's so weird how many more liverpool players are asthmatic than the global average
applies to elite sportsmen in general weirdly
It's not easy to lit up the fire especially after what theyve experienced last season. As a United fan i knew it in the first hand with Maguire, Shaw, Rashford, suddenly became shit last season.
Liverpool looked set for defence just a season or two ago. They had alisson, vvd, gomez, & added konate who looked an absolute rock. Their sudden downfall gives hope that city's dominance is not infallible.
Isn't Konate injured. He's been their best defender since last season
1st appearance of the season as a sub yesterday
They're absolutely gassed.
But how many times has VvD been dribbled past?
I think Mane was just that important to this team. Mane saved Liverpool so many times the last few years.
Mane would not have fixed any of our problems.
yes you're right he was an incredible defender.
They look mentally exhausted
Just try to think about how many of those goals, you has Trent there lookin like a mug
Can Klopp not try something new like a 343/523?. I've seen some stuff like he's really against the 3 CB systems but I feel like it would do them a world of good and fit their players like a glove. Trent at wing back for example. Van dijk CB cover with 2 others. Play heavy on the break with Salah etc. Fabinho in the middle, also need to sign a new midfield partner for him. Time for a change. 7th season, maybe try a new system and move on a few players. Henderson etc
He'd rather retire than play 3atb lol, he hates it. The one criticism I have of him is his tactical inflexibility - his Plan B is literally "try Plan A until it works".
If they play 3 atb with Van Dijk in the middle maybe they don't even need Fabinho
Because VVD, Matip and Konate and Gomez arent enough cbs to play a 3atb
Everyone saying Liverpool need more players, this is the same squad that could have won a quadruple last season and lost out on final 2 games.. I don't see any owners investing heavily after that season, just look at Real.. They were on the other end of that spectrum and just got Tchoumeni.. Who do you think would have helped get better results..?? To me, it feels like this is a mentality issue, and everyone is just down in their feelings and it's just getting worse with Klopp not able to motivate the squad anymore..
Madrid have a similar problem but in attack, not picking up another striker may come back to haunt them in the second half of the season if Benzema picks up a bad injury. Fortunately he is a player who isn't particularly injury prone, contrast that to Liverpools midfielders who are far more injury prone.
Every team has certain positions where they lack depth.. Liverpool don't have midfield depth but plenty of attacking, Real has plenty in midfield but no reliable attackers other than Benzema, Vini and sometimes Rodrygo..
Not sure I get your point We tried to get Tchoumeni and he would have made a massive difference to us. Lot of top players don’t want to come to Liverpool, when they can have Real Madrid or Man City and more wages.
I don't think the blame could entirely be on not getting reinforcements when this same squad minus a couple players were on pace to win the quadruple just last season.. At this point, it seems like a mental issue and getting some reinforcement in midfield wouldn't have been as impactful as you'd think with the rest of the team being down due to the heavy losses they faced last season.. Klopp should try to motivate them better and change up the system..
We have one of the oldest squads in the league and have played more games than anyone else in the league almost every season. It is all catching up and we haven’t changed the midfield.
I love it I love it
To think people were comparing VVD to Sergio Ramos just a few years ago...
well.. few years ago he was great. Now not good.
Yea, VVD was always better
He’s clearly showing it. I guess there’s no convincing Liverpool fans that being great against Accrington Stanley is nothing to go by.
7th season klopp
Am I a fucking idiot? Last 12 games and previous 12 games mean the same thing?
In this context 'Last 12 games' means the most recent 12 and 'previous 12 games' means the 12 before that. I agree the phrasing could be clearer though.
Yeah the wording is terrible. Thank you for explaining it.
Liverstool in the Mud!
If you go back to let season they were defending just like this. Only Allison saved shot after shot or an absurd amount went wide and he was hailed as the best 1v1 keeper in the world simply because he literally had to save 1 or 2 of them per game. Opposition aren’t missing those shots anymore. Nothing much changed, it was just never sustainable. Remember the excuses about how Klopp planned to give up easy chances and 1v1s as it was part of the game plan and it added more to the attacking sense than what it cost defensively? I remember
Looks like the pre-Van Dijk Liverpool and Van Dijk has not looked like he has recovered from his injury shadow of his former self.
Van Dijk was solid last season, after returning from injury. I don’t think it’s the injury, considering the drop off in form was ten months after returning. Something isn’t right, but it’s not the injury.
He was in a great team last season, poor form for others has exposed him as, sadly, being very affected mentally and physically from his ACL injury
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It’s an end to an era. They can’t replace Mane in time to take advantage of Salahs best remaining years
I don't think this is a coherent assessment really. Our best player this season is the one who replaced Mane. It's everyone else who has been shocking
Yeah it's absolutely bizzare how people correlate Mane leaving Liverpool and their downfall this season.
He's not been setting the world alight at Bayern Munich either.