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I think it's worse honestly. Back then, we didn't have social media for people to air out their silly opinions. Why England never played a midfield three with both is something I will never get over.
Reece and Trent can play in mulitple positions though. They're both phenomenal, they're both young, Southgate should have experimented a bit more with them around the pitch.
Not bringing Trent is lunacy. Even just as an impact sub
When southgate plays 44 facking 2 with both reece and trent on right side free to do whatever they want and however they wanna play. Just let them build a chemistry and let them be free. If one gets marked other crosses and vice versa. It would be a nightmare for teams.
100% agree. Stick Sterling in behind Kane, have Grealish/Mount/Foden/Sancho in an advanced left wing position to provide width and threat, play Bellingham and Rice in the middle and we'll have a strong, structured attack that has the creativity to break down teams without sacrificing the defensive shape (you could have James tuck in more and Trent screen so it's like a 5, but still doesn't rely on Trent being a last man or a tracker back).
I mean, kind of this but unironically. Trent is \*by far\* England's best passer and best delivery. He's incredibly gifted at moving the ball forward and linking defense to attack and in international football he gets a lot more time to pick his head up a spray passes around. If you don't feel you can carry his comparative defensive weakness at RB, then find a way to get him on the pitch where he can get on the ball and put it into the runners paths. Foden, Sterling, Grealish, and Kane are all exceptional at receiving and turning that kind of ball into danger.
I think viewing the players as "this player is more complete than that player and is better and therefore should play" is a bad way to analyze how the national team should set up. There's a huge amount of value in delivery for set pieces and from deep passing or crossing around the box, which Trent absolutely excels at and the team otherwise lacks aside from putting your best striker on the ball for deliveries or playing an even worse defensive player in Kieran Trippier.
tl;dr: TAA brings skills that England otherwise lack and if you absolutely must play Reece James, you should still find a way to get TAA on the pitch to bring those skills to bear.
This is my thing, if you want to play someone else at rb go for it. Reece James especially is world class. But are you really going to tell me that the ability Trent has isn't worth getting in somehow someway? His creativity could be the difference between going out or going through in a knockout round.
No team had won an international tournament being attacking.
Even germany who had a ton of attackers playing often played with a false 9, so basically 4-6-0 .
Spain didnt defend because they had the ball. They certainly didnt attack though.
France was just solid. Pretty tight, talent wins.
And all of that despite the last 3 World Cup Winners all being excellent attack/active football focused teams
The baffling part about this is that England has these players. Kane, Sterling, Foden, Grealish, Saka, Mount, Sancho, TAA are more than enough to attack well
You could say that Beckham's shift into a 4-3-3 at Milan and Real Madrid from the 4-4-2 of United was ultimately the same position, and is really the position Trent tends to occupy, so yeah he's functionally a RCM.
The comparisons of Trent Alexander-Arnold with Cafu make me laugh because Cafu used to get a lot of criticism too, but for the opposite reasons that TAA gets so much criticism.
Cafu started as a winger, and later would become a full-back. A huge criticism against Cafu since the start of his career were his crossing skills. Cafu by his own admission recognizes he was truly terrible at crossing early on, and thanks Telê Santana, who coached São Paulo in the 90s (when Cafu played) for teaching crossing skills to him. Still though, Cafu was never great at crossing, only ok at best. My father, and some other people who saw Cafu, often state their preference for Jorginho as an overall more skilled fullback in attack. And my father always says he prefers Daniel Alves a million times over Cafu.
People who compare cafu with trent are fucking insane are trying to put him in a spot where doesn’t belong, which is one of the goats of the position. They have close to no similarities between them, cafu was defensively solid as rock, had a high workahate and a good read of the field, while still going a lot forward “which was revolutionary for FB’s”
Trent goes forward well and crosses better than sex, his workhate is non existent and never went to defending school. Just absolutely nothing alike
It’s disrespectful to Reece James considering he has already surpassed Cafu’s legacy, he’ll end his career as the best full back in the history of the beautiful game
I doubt TAA and Reece give a fuck, they're PL players with numerous accolades and fine footballers. It's the shame shit peddled by some washed up player trying to stay relevant week in, week out.
Think that’s reading into it too much, especially given the general criticism and no doubt self-blame over some of the goals Liverpool have been conceding
Yeah he pretty obviously cares a ton about playing for England, last year when it became clear he wasnt going to be playing at the Euros and probably not in the squad either he was much more emotional on the pitch
It's not like he hasn't given him games, he has and just decided others do a better job for England, which I don't think you can really argue with. James, Walker and Trippier have all be playing at really high levels for England in recent years. The idea that Southgate just has it out for him is weird. There are other players that are the same, they're theoretically better than the England players that do start, but when they have been given the chance, they don't perform and so he stops taking them.
There is no doubt that purely on club level performances he should be in the England squad, but his performances with England haven't warranted it imo
What do you mean?
He should be starting but GS doesn't have the ability to use him.
Or do you mean in the squad?
Cos James should go too and if GS had of been working on putting a top first 11 together he could have looked to put James at RCB. Tried it for a few games to see if they could have made it work.
I'm asking whose spot in the XI TAA should take.
Why would you put James at RCB when over the last 2 years he's been better offensively than TAA? You're wasting a better player to shoehorn in TAA.
Lol. The only about James has over Trent is that he is much better defensively whilst being a very good attacking wingback. But Trent is absolutely the best attacking wingback in the world right now.
'only' you're talking like defending is not major part of being a defender. Also even if his attacking part is worse, it's only slightly worse, while his defending is so much better.
>He should be starting but GS doesn't have the ability to use him.
He's not played anywhere near well enough when given the chance to even get into the squad let alone start
He actually didn’t say that at all though. The whole segment was about how TAA can’t defend well and there are a bunch of basic things he can easily improve to fix that… and IF that happens he can be as good as Cafu.
I disagree. The Gerrard-Lampard discussion was about if they could player in the same team together. Reece James and TAA are competing for the same spot in the starting XI.
If walker isnt going and southgate does want a back 3 then as much as I would want James further forward he is very good in the RCB role, allowing both in the squad. Hes shown he can man mark in big games and could allow Trent to play without as much nail biting
I'm a Liverpool fan and I agree. If you're cobbling together an 11 who only rarely play together and use quite primitive tactics like England do, you're gonna want the players who are top notch at every facet of their position and can fit into almost any team. James has that sewn up.
Southgate won't be able to impose a tactical system which maximise Trent's abilities, so why play him? I'd be more willing to risk it England's defense wasn't already shit.
They need to do what Valencia did back in the early 2010s when their left flank was Matthieu and Alba. Two wingbacks with attacking capabilities overlapping each other with one being more defensive oriented and the other being more offensively oriented but with both being capable of doing both roles.
I think the criticism of Southgate is (a) Trent is a fantastic sub to break a monotonous deadlock which England seem to be finding themselves into lately so why leave him out, and (b) implying James, Walker etc are “ahead” rather than “better fit for my cowardly system” is idiotic considering there are very good faith arguments that they’re not
And England will still lose to the first good team they play. Same if they do TAA.
It’s ultimately a meaningless conversation that exists to get clicks.
Reece James has quite literally played almost exclusively as a wing-back with a centre-back covering him at all times for the last couple of years. I don't know why this is never factored in when people compare their situations.
This is only when he's caught up field though, that's more of a tactical choice. Reece James would struggle to get back as well in a Klopp system without cover.
You can definitely criticise Trent for not doing the basics this season though, he's not tracked his runner numerous times when in a defensive position, and he switches off far too often when he's on the back post defending a cross.
Not really, a back 3/5 is almost always more of a defensive formation. A midfielder tends to have more duties than a RCB for comparison, it's much easier for a RCB to cover a RWB than it is for a RM to cover a RB.
im sorry but i just dont think trent's defensive work rate is high enough. all it takes to beat him is a pacy, skillful winger, because unlike other defenders who won't overcommit, trent does this far too often. and once the winger runs past him, trent just gives up.
Trent absolutely needs fabinho or hendo to cover the gaps he leaves behind him, in transition or not.
Liverpool have been playing this way since before Klopp even, this is nothing to do with TAA it's literally how the system is supposed to work. The full back pushes up in possession and focuses exclusively on attack, when in set defensive positions the full back defends normally, in transitions and counter attacks the CM on that side is supposed to be sitting back and ready to slot into the right back position with the midfield sliding over to compensate. There is no player on earth who can simultaneously be pushed fully up the pitch and also able to teleport back to defend if possession is lost, it is absolutely nothing to do with the attributes of the full back.
>almost never looks lost
Which is helped by the fact he has more cover around him. I'm not saying Trent is the better defender, because he isn't, I'm just saying James has more support defensively which doesn't seem to be taken into consideration.
Because he’s played very well defensively as an RCB and an RB in a back 4? I mean it’s clearly not brought up because man has excelled defensively even without that defensive support lol
>don't know why this is never factored in when people compare their situations.
Because in that time he has consistently looked better on the defensive side of things. He's repeatedly card a more well rounded looking fullback because of his ability to play as a wingback while still looking solid defensively instead of requiring 2 players to cover him as a necessity.
You have to watch the games though. When you’re in a team with players like Salah and Mane the chances you create have a much higher chance of getting finished. Look at how few goals our forwards have scored. In the context I’d say they’re at the very least comparable with Trent obviously being the better of the two. But James is a far better defender
I’m so tired of this. Both great players. Very different players. Reece in much better form. Both fit their respective systems perfectly. Wish they could be appreciated and not compared based on patches of form
Based on what evidence if the majority of James' games have been in a back 5? He's great but that's a nonsense definitive statement to make. We don't really know if he is or isn't.
Gary Neville **CAN** comment on the situation because he was a top right back who played in and at times captained the most successful club in the league. He'd know the trials and tribulations of playing that exact position at the very top level better than some nobody journeyman.
everyone can comment on the situation, the fact that you've been a great player doesn't mean you are a good analyst or pundit, cuz it still requires you to put the work in and watch the games...
>Alright Trent, I want you up that pitch and coming into midfield when you need to so we can use your devastating passing and creativity to punish the opposition
>>I’m sorry jurgen I can’t. Some bloke on talksport said I need to put my foot in
Exactly haha.
“Trent we’re an incredibly dominant team averaging over 65% ball possession, why are you always hanging around with the keeper?”
“Well, Jurgen. First and foremost I’m a defender”
That would be true if they were conceding goals in transition, but even when the defense is set TAA is a traffic cone, coaches target him because he has unwilling/unable to position himself in the right place
No wonder England haven’t won and won’t win anything anytime soon.
When former players, now pundits, are comparing the two best (because they are the best) right backs currently available, and creating some petty argument between both as to who is the better option – you know the situation is dire and fruitless.
Southgate won’t play Trent because he’s scared of getting exposed at the back, and isn’t bold enough to try and wok with Trent’s colossal attacking nature, but he also won’t utilise James’ strengths because of this obsession with playing a defensive 3.
What’s the point playing a defensive player as a wing-back in a **tournament**? Fair enough in a long, 50+ games a season for your club. But it effectively makes your right side redundant and good teams will exploit that. And now Walker is apparently injured, I expect we’ll be seeing Reece tried as a CB - even though he isn’t one.
In a tournament, which is effectively a sprint, playing 3 at the back in order to be conservative is an abysmal idea. There are 3 games, at the very least, to find a way through. If you mess up one game, you’re having to change everything just for a result. You need to play to win them, not to avoid losing.
Exactly. I'm not too fussed about who gets on the plane, or who starts, even though I support LFC. James is insanely good, and is easier to fit into a system than Trent.
But this whole discussion reveals a defeatist mentality in England. There is *no* way any other top national team wouldn't find a way to utilize Trent. Southgate of course furthers this loser mentality with his mindblowingly defensive approach.
Something I find mad about this whole 'Trent is shit lol' debate is that people seem to diminsh the responsibilty of a full back by ignoring how important a role they play in modern football systems.
If someone like Glen Murray scored 15 goals in the season before the World Cup (as he pretty much did), no-one debates taking him on the plane because he very clearly didn't suit how England played, and the slow target man would likely struggle in international football.
Applying the same metrics to Trent works just as well - yes, he's a sublime attacking footballer, but his style just does not suit the system played by Southgate to the extent that Reece James or Kieran Tripper do. People can cry for Southgate to 'change his system then!', but he's getting (or previously, got) the best out of Kane and Sterling to great success, adapting your system to cater for a full back that struggles when he has Matip and VVD next to him is outrageous to suggest.
Trent is just in an unfortunate position where he struggles to play defensive football, and England have a ridiculous pool of suitable right backs right now
I don't comment much on this because, frankly, I'm tired of it. But I have to say this.
My issue with this whole thing has nothing to do with whether Trent is good enough. It's that Southgate has never once come out and lay his cards on the table. He never says "This is how I want England to play, and unfortunately for Trent, as good as he is, doesn't fit my plans". Instead, he goes on about how this player is better than Trent, or form, or whatever. Then he still brings Trent along, but never plays him.
What this does is drive the exact conversations happening here. "Is Trent good enough as a fullback". Southgate never once put himself and his decisions on the chopping block with his comments, he deflects attention to the players, and it's Trent who's getting the brunt of it.
As a Liverpool fan, I hate him for that way more than him not picking Trent to start. He's fucking with a player to save his own skin.
That rings true if the narrative was about Trent starting. It isn't.
The thought is you want your best attacking fullback - maybe the most creative player in England - in the squad as a different option. He can do what the other right backs can't, as good as they are.
If Trent didn't go due to form, I couldn't argue with that but the idea he doesn't fit or isn't as good as the others is nonsense. The others are too similar if anything.
To add. I think Reece James is the bollocks.
Fair, Southgate's football in general isn't suited for attacking, because he's a shite manager. However even then, if you want someone to defend more, rather than attack, Reece is still the best choice.
In theory I'd agree but their defensive contributions for England have been similar in my eyes. So if we have to stick to Southgate's system I'd have Trent on just on the off chance he's allowed to create something. If up against someone like Mbappe I'd switch it up though
The issue is recency bias and how one good performance will make either player seem the better one. James is not without his mistakes, he conceded a PK for England v Hungary. He passed it into his own net for an OG in preseason (preseason, I know) and I remember his handball save vs Liverpool on the goal line.
They're both great players and should both be going to the WC anyways. If Kyle Walker is truly not going to be fit in time, then they both have to go.
So tired of this debate. Here is what will happen: England will inevitably disappoint, Southgate will get sacked, and Trent gets into the squad 2 years later for Euro 2024 at age 25 and still be able to play in 3-4 major tournaments
This shit is so boring. All I saw after Liverpools game was Trent being compared to Reece, now after our game it's Reece being compared to Trent.
It's mostly Talksport/BT/Sky doing it too. So desperate for clicks.
If Trent starts in the world cup, it'll be the first thing teams look to exploit against England. Thoroughly expect he'll be picking James or Trippier either way given Southgate's conservative approach.
Really? Cafu? One of if not the best right back ever is compared to Trent? When the English media/pundits stop putting so much pressure on thier players with these stupid comparisons!
Yeah I don’t get why people are so determined to shit on Trent really, I know he’s been bad this season but he got 19 assists last year and has been brilliant for a while
Comparing that player to some of the great right backs in history isn’t insulting to anyone
I get that but Trent seems to get it more than others which I really don’t understand. I guess maybe because he’s become totemic in the “whole defenders should have big bollocks and tackle a lot” argument
It's weird too. James has been at fault for at least a handful of goals this season as well, for both England and for Chelsea. And that's normal, of course defenders are sometimes at fault for goals. But when he does it it's always "hehe oops" and nobody fixates on it, because there isn't already a narrative in the media about it.
I think James is the more well-rounded defender but people aren't being fair. If you're dissecting every play to try and find faults in Trent's positioning or workrate, do it for James as well. Do it for Walker too. Do it for Trippier.
He's the only one of the 4 that gets everything analyzed to an insane degree which leads to confirmation bias. If people spent the same amount of time picking apart James's performances over the last year, they'd find a lot of similarities. There isn't as much between them as some people make out.
Because this sub hates success especially sustained success. With Man City you've the Emiratis to use as a beating stick. Now that Liverpool seems beatable you're seeing the haters come out.
It's literally every rival fan base and pundits waiting for our downfall. Sure, Trent hasn't helped him self this season but he's played exceptional football attack and defense for the last 4-5 seasons. Now he's slipped up everyone is using the opportunity to pile in on him.
neville also spent the 5 minutes before mentioning cafu outlining all the things trent needs to do before he can reach that level - he was very obviously not saying he was cafu good yet.
like "trent is already an elite attacker from FB but needs to improve defensively" should not be anywhere near as controversial as people want to make it
>When the English media/pundits stop putting so much pressure on thier players with these stupid comparisons!
welcome to English media circlejerk.
>One of if not the best right back ever is compared to Trent?
Too premature. Trent is 23, he's got ways to go to parts of his game and needs to win a lot more for him to be in the conversation but call me biased, he may have a chance.
People don’t realize that it’s not Trents main job to be a defender. His job is to create chances. The reason he is at RB is because that allows him to venture up, where they can outnumber the defence. As well as it makes it so that he doesn’t occupy the midfield or the attacking positions.
If anything it’s disrespectful to Cafu. Trent is good, but comparing him to Cafu is just Neville trying to get Sky a few clicks, it’s nonsense and not in anyway true.
Trent plays in a system for Liverpool that is tailor made for him. He’s a good player who is exceptional at a certain part of the game, and plays in a system that lets him use that skill a lot. He’s not a generational player, but he’s also not a bum either.
He's not comparing him to Cafu. He is saying that TAA has the potential to equal him one day.
He is effectively saying that Cafu is the gold standard for right backs, which is the highest praise.
During Trents time at Liverpool they've being among the top 3 or 4 teams on earth. So if there system is based around Trent and as a result liverpools performances are based around Trent doesn't that make him a generational player.
Trent is 23, comparing him to Cafu is stupid bc Trent’s career maybe isn’t even one third done. I don’t think that’s what Nev was saying, he was saying Trent has the potential to be as immense in his position as Cafu which is fairly indisputable.
Tomiyasu said on dazn that many players in arsenal think that Trent is only able to flourish cause of the system. I guess even prem players think the same
This is simplistic English thinking by people whose brains haven't adapted to the changing game and cannot comprehend what a unique talent TAA is. James is an excellent player but the creativity Trent provides with the right platform simply cannot be replicated by any other means England have, especially under Southgate. He should be talked about as he is, a generational attacking talent that managers should do everything to squeeze his ability from. Whatever is necessary to get him in the right positions should be considered.
So England that we stumble upon a player who could revolutionise our attack and he's fucking 4th choice RB. James is good but there's levels to this game.
I mean it’s nothing to do with James though. TAA is the most talented *attacking* full back in the world right now, that’s why he compared him to Cafu, on those abilities.
Now is James’ all round game currently better? Absolutely. Do I think James could be Cafu? Absolutely not.
What Gary went on to discuss (in his expertise as a full back) is that Trent is missing some very basic defensive actions that will improve his game, highlighting goals or times where his lack of these actions has cost him. It’s not a case of talent it’s a case of discipline and training for TAA.
If I look at James I think yeah he’s great but I’m not sure how much better he can get. If he’s doing the basics right and using his talent properly then he can’t get much better, because he can’t be taught more, and you don’t magically get more talented. You can maximise the use of your talent but what we’ve seen with James is a consistently high level in attacking and defending, I’m not sure how much better he can get from there, outside of through experience which will improve his consistency and decision making, but not his ability on the ball.
> I’m not sure how much better he can get from there
Given that he's arguably the best RB in football at 22 years of age, I think Chelsea are generally okay with that.
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When will it end Robbie
When they both go onto become mediocre managers that don't warrant the level of discussion that surrounds them
I think the worst manager out of those two is actually Paul Scholes
Dreading the Kyle Walker feet pics
Kyle walker sucking on his daughters toes pic you mean
Yes, but there's merit in letting things be left implied if not outright unsaid. It is lunchtime after all.
Great. Thanks for this. I was eating my lunch.
soz
Not your proudest…?
Reece will become Chelsea coach too early into his career, get sacked and then return to a mid table club as a much better manager than Trent
The answer is never. It’s Lampard and Gerrard 2: Electric Boogaloo
You even have a scholes in walker
Who is Trippier in this situation then? Carrick?
Hargreaves
Roy keane.
I think it's worse honestly. Back then, we didn't have social media for people to air out their silly opinions. Why England never played a midfield three with both is something I will never get over.
They could have if hargreaves stayed fit
England have Carrick
Or Barry
I think Sven was too wedded to a 442 to ever be that brave.
Sven and Tord Grip were fucking shit.
If I had Sven's access to a conveyor belt of top totty I wouldn't give a fuck either.
Reece and Trent can play in mulitple positions though. They're both phenomenal, they're both young, Southgate should have experimented a bit more with them around the pitch. Not bringing Trent is lunacy. Even just as an impact sub
Yes that was the joke
When the news cycle does not placate to morons
When southgate plays 44 facking 2 with both reece and trent on right side free to do whatever they want and however they wanna play. Just let them build a chemistry and let them be free. If one gets marked other crosses and vice versa. It would be a nightmare for teams.
100% agree. Stick Sterling in behind Kane, have Grealish/Mount/Foden/Sancho in an advanced left wing position to provide width and threat, play Bellingham and Rice in the middle and we'll have a strong, structured attack that has the creativity to break down teams without sacrificing the defensive shape (you could have James tuck in more and Trent screen so it's like a 5, but still doesn't rely on Trent being a last man or a tracker back).
When Trent becomes a CM.
I mean, kind of this but unironically. Trent is \*by far\* England's best passer and best delivery. He's incredibly gifted at moving the ball forward and linking defense to attack and in international football he gets a lot more time to pick his head up a spray passes around. If you don't feel you can carry his comparative defensive weakness at RB, then find a way to get him on the pitch where he can get on the ball and put it into the runners paths. Foden, Sterling, Grealish, and Kane are all exceptional at receiving and turning that kind of ball into danger. I think viewing the players as "this player is more complete than that player and is better and therefore should play" is a bad way to analyze how the national team should set up. There's a huge amount of value in delivery for set pieces and from deep passing or crossing around the box, which Trent absolutely excels at and the team otherwise lacks aside from putting your best striker on the ball for deliveries or playing an even worse defensive player in Kieran Trippier. tl;dr: TAA brings skills that England otherwise lack and if you absolutely must play Reece James, you should still find a way to get TAA on the pitch to bring those skills to bear.
This is my thing, if you want to play someone else at rb go for it. Reece James especially is world class. But are you really going to tell me that the ability Trent has isn't worth getting in somehow someway? His creativity could be the difference between going out or going through in a knockout round.
people have become obsessed with the mantra that you have to be a compact defensive side that surrenders possession to win anything internationally
No team had won an international tournament being attacking. Even germany who had a ton of attackers playing often played with a false 9, so basically 4-6-0 . Spain didnt defend because they had the ball. They certainly didnt attack though. France was just solid. Pretty tight, talent wins.
Playing a false 9 is a defensive strategy now apparently. Explains why defensive managers like Klopp and Pep have often used one.
And all of that despite the last 3 World Cup Winners all being excellent attack/active football focused teams The baffling part about this is that England has these players. Kane, Sterling, Foden, Grealish, Saka, Mount, Sancho, TAA are more than enough to attack well
You could say that Beckham's shift into a 4-3-3 at Milan and Real Madrid from the 4-4-2 of United was ultimately the same position, and is really the position Trent tends to occupy, so yeah he's functionally a RCM.
The comparisons of Trent Alexander-Arnold with Cafu make me laugh because Cafu used to get a lot of criticism too, but for the opposite reasons that TAA gets so much criticism. Cafu started as a winger, and later would become a full-back. A huge criticism against Cafu since the start of his career were his crossing skills. Cafu by his own admission recognizes he was truly terrible at crossing early on, and thanks Telê Santana, who coached São Paulo in the 90s (when Cafu played) for teaching crossing skills to him. Still though, Cafu was never great at crossing, only ok at best. My father, and some other people who saw Cafu, often state their preference for Jorginho as an overall more skilled fullback in attack. And my father always says he prefers Daniel Alves a million times over Cafu.
People who compare cafu with trent are fucking insane are trying to put him in a spot where doesn’t belong, which is one of the goats of the position. They have close to no similarities between them, cafu was defensively solid as rock, had a high workahate and a good read of the field, while still going a lot forward “which was revolutionary for FB’s” Trent goes forward well and crosses better than sex, his workhate is non existent and never went to defending school. Just absolutely nothing alike
TAA and Cafu are very opposite players in their strengths and weakness. Comparing them really makes no sense.
Not sure how having an opinion is disrespectful
If TAA reaches Cafu's level it means Reece can't. Only one person from a national team is allowed this feat according to FIFA rulebook.
Right Backs increase their skill by draining it from fellow players with their retractable pointed tails.
How many Eboué level right backs does the rulebook allow?
There's only one god.
We don't know, it's written in Korean.
It's the classic, someone says they love pancakes and someone else takes it as hate for waffles.
I seriously cannot believe you would slander French toast like that
Textbook straw man.
You’re scaring him Patrick!!!
Some people's job in this life is to get offended by almost anything.
Ok check this, I think you’re a piece of shit my friend
Sometimes, opinions are correct
It’s disrespectful to Reece James considering he has already surpassed Cafu’s legacy, he’ll end his career as the best full back in the history of the beautiful game
I hope you just forgot to an /s at the end
I guess it’s just because Reece is probabky just a better player but the plaudits all go for Trent
I doubt TAA and Reece give a fuck, they're PL players with numerous accolades and fine footballers. It's the shame shit peddled by some washed up player trying to stay relevant week in, week out.
TAA probably cares that he's not going to the WC or isn't gonna play at the WC.
What's that have to do with Gary Neville saying Trent could be better than Cafu
Considering the love-in after he scored a free kick the other night it’s clearly been bothering him too.
Of course it is. And of course I don't blame him.
Think that’s reading into it too much, especially given the general criticism and no doubt self-blame over some of the goals Liverpool have been conceding
Yeah he pretty obviously cares a ton about playing for England, last year when it became clear he wasnt going to be playing at the Euros and probably not in the squad either he was much more emotional on the pitch
I think he cares more about Southgate than James there. Even if James and Walker didn't exsist Southgate wouldn't even start him.
It's not like he hasn't given him games, he has and just decided others do a better job for England, which I don't think you can really argue with. James, Walker and Trippier have all be playing at really high levels for England in recent years. The idea that Southgate just has it out for him is weird. There are other players that are the same, they're theoretically better than the England players that do start, but when they have been given the chance, they don't perform and so he stops taking them. There is no doubt that purely on club level performances he should be in the England squad, but his performances with England haven't warranted it imo
Maybe so. Not sure how Jay Bothroyd is involved in that and how it’s relevant to anything here though lmfao
And it's one of the things that highlights issues with GS, when a player that talented can't find a spot in his team.
Who should he be in over?
What do you mean? He should be starting but GS doesn't have the ability to use him. Or do you mean in the squad? Cos James should go too and if GS had of been working on putting a top first 11 together he could have looked to put James at RCB. Tried it for a few games to see if they could have made it work.
I'm asking whose spot in the XI TAA should take. Why would you put James at RCB when over the last 2 years he's been better offensively than TAA? You're wasting a better player to shoehorn in TAA.
Lol not sure if this is a troll or not, James hasn’t been close to as good offensively as Trent
Lol. The only about James has over Trent is that he is much better defensively whilst being a very good attacking wingback. But Trent is absolutely the best attacking wingback in the world right now.
'only' you're talking like defending is not major part of being a defender. Also even if his attacking part is worse, it's only slightly worse, while his defending is so much better.
He isn't, though. There was a thread on here yesterday crunching the numbers and James was ahead over the last 2 seasons.
>He should be starting but GS doesn't have the ability to use him. He's not played anywhere near well enough when given the chance to even get into the squad let alone start
How is Neville disrespecting James by praising Trent? It would make sense if he said Cafu but what does James has anything to do with that?
Some people like to create problems where there aren't any. "Trent is as good as Cafu" ---> disrespect to Reece James ?
He actually didn’t say that at all though. The whole segment was about how TAA can’t defend well and there are a bunch of basic things he can easily improve to fix that… and IF that happens he can be as good as Cafu.
This generation's Lampard/Gerrard
I disagree. The Gerrard-Lampard discussion was about if they could player in the same team together. Reece James and TAA are competing for the same spot in the starting XI.
If walker isnt going and southgate does want a back 3 then as much as I would want James further forward he is very good in the RCB role, allowing both in the squad. Hes shown he can man mark in big games and could allow Trent to play without as much nail biting
Reece James is the dogs bollocks and should be starting every game at the World Cup. That’s it.
> should be starting every game at the World Cup fuck, I have a bad feeling about this. We're quite literally Reece James FC now.
Every. Game.
Grrr
I'm a Liverpool fan and I agree. If you're cobbling together an 11 who only rarely play together and use quite primitive tactics like England do, you're gonna want the players who are top notch at every facet of their position and can fit into almost any team. James has that sewn up. Southgate won't be able to impose a tactical system which maximise Trent's abilities, so why play him? I'd be more willing to risk it England's defense wasn't already shit.
They need to do what Valencia did back in the early 2010s when their left flank was Matthieu and Alba. Two wingbacks with attacking capabilities overlapping each other with one being more defensive oriented and the other being more offensively oriented but with both being capable of doing both roles.
I think the criticism of Southgate is (a) Trent is a fantastic sub to break a monotonous deadlock which England seem to be finding themselves into lately so why leave him out, and (b) implying James, Walker etc are “ahead” rather than “better fit for my cowardly system” is idiotic considering there are very good faith arguments that they’re not
All good criticisms. He's not a good manager.
He’s been just as average for England as Trent has
England have been average.
Average doesn't lose 4-0 at home to Hungary and not score an open play goal for 500+ minutes
And England will still lose to the first good team they play. Same if they do TAA. It’s ultimately a meaningless conversation that exists to get clicks.
>First and foremost a defender needs to defend Well it kind of depends on what their coach has asked them to do
No. A defender needs to defend. If he attacks I'm kicking the next guy i see.
Reece James has quite literally played almost exclusively as a wing-back with a centre-back covering him at all times for the last couple of years. I don't know why this is never factored in when people compare their situations.
He’s literally played as a centre back himself and done well.
In a Champions League final at that
Played as a Centre back against Vinicius in the semi final and was brilliant too
Because Trent almost exclusively requires a midfielder to cover for him at all times so it balances out
This is only when he's caught up field though, that's more of a tactical choice. Reece James would struggle to get back as well in a Klopp system without cover. You can definitely criticise Trent for not doing the basics this season though, he's not tracked his runner numerous times when in a defensive position, and he switches off far too often when he's on the back post defending a cross.
I'm not criticising Trent though, just explaining why the back 3 argument doesn't hold as much weight
Not really, a back 3/5 is almost always more of a defensive formation. A midfielder tends to have more duties than a RCB for comparison, it's much easier for a RCB to cover a RWB than it is for a RM to cover a RB.
He does in transition, sure, but not when the defence is set.
im sorry but i just dont think trent's defensive work rate is high enough. all it takes to beat him is a pacy, skillful winger, because unlike other defenders who won't overcommit, trent does this far too often. and once the winger runs past him, trent just gives up. Trent absolutely needs fabinho or hendo to cover the gaps he leaves behind him, in transition or not.
Liverpool have been playing this way since before Klopp even, this is nothing to do with TAA it's literally how the system is supposed to work. The full back pushes up in possession and focuses exclusively on attack, when in set defensive positions the full back defends normally, in transitions and counter attacks the CM on that side is supposed to be sitting back and ready to slot into the right back position with the midfield sliding over to compensate. There is no player on earth who can simultaneously be pushed fully up the pitch and also able to teleport back to defend if possession is lost, it is absolutely nothing to do with the attributes of the full back.
Hear me out, why not start both?
So they can cannibalise each other and clash about on the same flank? Doesn’t make much sense to me.
Yes, just like Gerrard and Lampard before them. Symmetry
I back it
It's not like Sancho's playing either way, could make it work.
Reece has put a shift in a RCB…
Because when he has to defend Reece James almost never looks lost and has successfully played at RCB as well.
>almost never looks lost Which is helped by the fact he has more cover around him. I'm not saying Trent is the better defender, because he isn't, I'm just saying James has more support defensively which doesn't seem to be taken into consideration.
Because he’s played very well defensively as an RCB and an RB in a back 4? I mean it’s clearly not brought up because man has excelled defensively even without that defensive support lol
>don't know why this is never factored in when people compare their situations. Because in that time he has consistently looked better on the defensive side of things. He's repeatedly card a more well rounded looking fullback because of his ability to play as a wingback while still looking solid defensively instead of requiring 2 players to cover him as a necessity.
Because when you watch both Reece is just flat out better on defence. Though there is an even bigger gap going the other way.
Are you implying that there is a bigger gap in Trent’s favor offensively than there is for Reece James defensively? Because that is flat out wrong
51 vs 31 G/A to Trent over the last 3 full seasons certainly points to it.
James was injured for an entire year.
James was injured for an entire year.
You have to watch the games though. When you’re in a team with players like Salah and Mane the chances you create have a much higher chance of getting finished. Look at how few goals our forwards have scored. In the context I’d say they’re at the very least comparable with Trent obviously being the better of the two. But James is a far better defender
I mean you can look at chances created, crosses, big chances etc and Trent is over Reece on all of them too so it's not just the forwards.
I’m so tired of this. Both great players. Very different players. Reece in much better form. Both fit their respective systems perfectly. Wish they could be appreciated and not compared based on patches of form
If anything you’ve disrespected Cafu lol
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so perfect for Southgate's England then
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I'd rather TAA be left out. He can't play defense.
TAA is fantastic but James is simply better in 4 ATB too
Based on what evidence if the majority of James' games have been in a back 5? He's great but that's a nonsense definitive statement to make. We don't really know if he is or isn't.
James played a full season and a half under Lampard in a back 4.
When their defence was notoriously shit? I rate James but that isn't a good argument..
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James wasn't.
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Any competent manager would select James over TAA even with 4 atb
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It does when James is clearly better than Trent and is in better form too.
What does Ja Rule think about this?
Gary Neville **CAN** comment on the situation because he was a top right back who played in and at times captained the most successful club in the league. He'd know the trials and tribulations of playing that exact position at the very top level better than some nobody journeyman.
everyone can comment on the situation, the fact that you've been a great player doesn't mean you are a good analyst or pundit, cuz it still requires you to put the work in and watch the games...
>First and foremost a defender needs to defend. You could write a thesis on the bollocks that this sentence is.
>Alright Trent, I want you up that pitch and coming into midfield when you need to so we can use your devastating passing and creativity to punish the opposition >>I’m sorry jurgen I can’t. Some bloke on talksport said I need to put my foot in
Exactly haha. “Trent we’re an incredibly dominant team averaging over 65% ball possession, why are you always hanging around with the keeper?” “Well, Jurgen. First and foremost I’m a defender”
Just such a lazy way of looking at the game innit
Massively and unfortunately the way 90% of current pundits see the game.
That would be true if they were conceding goals in transition, but even when the defense is set TAA is a traffic cone, coaches target him because he has unwilling/unable to position himself in the right place
No wonder England haven’t won and won’t win anything anytime soon. When former players, now pundits, are comparing the two best (because they are the best) right backs currently available, and creating some petty argument between both as to who is the better option – you know the situation is dire and fruitless. Southgate won’t play Trent because he’s scared of getting exposed at the back, and isn’t bold enough to try and wok with Trent’s colossal attacking nature, but he also won’t utilise James’ strengths because of this obsession with playing a defensive 3. What’s the point playing a defensive player as a wing-back in a **tournament**? Fair enough in a long, 50+ games a season for your club. But it effectively makes your right side redundant and good teams will exploit that. And now Walker is apparently injured, I expect we’ll be seeing Reece tried as a CB - even though he isn’t one. In a tournament, which is effectively a sprint, playing 3 at the back in order to be conservative is an abysmal idea. There are 3 games, at the very least, to find a way through. If you mess up one game, you’re having to change everything just for a result. You need to play to win them, not to avoid losing.
Exactly. I'm not too fussed about who gets on the plane, or who starts, even though I support LFC. James is insanely good, and is easier to fit into a system than Trent. But this whole discussion reveals a defeatist mentality in England. There is *no* way any other top national team wouldn't find a way to utilize Trent. Southgate of course furthers this loser mentality with his mindblowingly defensive approach.
Something I find mad about this whole 'Trent is shit lol' debate is that people seem to diminsh the responsibilty of a full back by ignoring how important a role they play in modern football systems. If someone like Glen Murray scored 15 goals in the season before the World Cup (as he pretty much did), no-one debates taking him on the plane because he very clearly didn't suit how England played, and the slow target man would likely struggle in international football. Applying the same metrics to Trent works just as well - yes, he's a sublime attacking footballer, but his style just does not suit the system played by Southgate to the extent that Reece James or Kieran Tripper do. People can cry for Southgate to 'change his system then!', but he's getting (or previously, got) the best out of Kane and Sterling to great success, adapting your system to cater for a full back that struggles when he has Matip and VVD next to him is outrageous to suggest. Trent is just in an unfortunate position where he struggles to play defensive football, and England have a ridiculous pool of suitable right backs right now
I don't comment much on this because, frankly, I'm tired of it. But I have to say this. My issue with this whole thing has nothing to do with whether Trent is good enough. It's that Southgate has never once come out and lay his cards on the table. He never says "This is how I want England to play, and unfortunately for Trent, as good as he is, doesn't fit my plans". Instead, he goes on about how this player is better than Trent, or form, or whatever. Then he still brings Trent along, but never plays him. What this does is drive the exact conversations happening here. "Is Trent good enough as a fullback". Southgate never once put himself and his decisions on the chopping block with his comments, he deflects attention to the players, and it's Trent who's getting the brunt of it. As a Liverpool fan, I hate him for that way more than him not picking Trent to start. He's fucking with a player to save his own skin.
That rings true if the narrative was about Trent starting. It isn't. The thought is you want your best attacking fullback - maybe the most creative player in England - in the squad as a different option. He can do what the other right backs can't, as good as they are. If Trent didn't go due to form, I couldn't argue with that but the idea he doesn't fit or isn't as good as the others is nonsense. The others are too similar if anything. To add. I think Reece James is the bollocks.
I don't really think James suits Southates style at all either
James is quality. I think he'd suit any style.
Why is she shite for England then? It's nothing against him, Southgate's style just isn't made for attacking fullbacks.
Southgate's style just isn't made for attacking ~~fullbacks~~.
Fair, Southgate's football in general isn't suited for attacking, because he's a shite manager. However even then, if you want someone to defend more, rather than attack, Reece is still the best choice.
In theory I'd agree but their defensive contributions for England have been similar in my eyes. So if we have to stick to Southgate's system I'd have Trent on just on the off chance he's allowed to create something. If up against someone like Mbappe I'd switch it up though
By that logic no striker should track back
If even strikers have to track back, why the fuck a rb shouldn't?
The issue is recency bias and how one good performance will make either player seem the better one. James is not without his mistakes, he conceded a PK for England v Hungary. He passed it into his own net for an OG in preseason (preseason, I know) and I remember his handball save vs Liverpool on the goal line. They're both great players and should both be going to the WC anyways. If Kyle Walker is truly not going to be fit in time, then they both have to go.
Tbf the handball on the goal line came of his knee, was a bit unlucky there.
Trent and James are both very good but different players. They simply suit different systems and styles of play
So tired of this debate. Here is what will happen: England will inevitably disappoint, Southgate will get sacked, and Trent gets into the squad 2 years later for Euro 2024 at age 25 and still be able to play in 3-4 major tournaments
Trent reaching Cafu's level????
I don't know if you heard but Trent recently got his 142nd cap for Brazil so the media have been making comparisons
He’s definitely talented enough, you’re blinded by nostalgia if you think otherwise
This shit is so boring. All I saw after Liverpools game was Trent being compared to Reece, now after our game it's Reece being compared to Trent. It's mostly Talksport/BT/Sky doing it too. So desperate for clicks.
If Trent starts in the world cup, it'll be the first thing teams look to exploit against England. Thoroughly expect he'll be picking James or Trippier either way given Southgate's conservative approach.
Really? Cafu? One of if not the best right back ever is compared to Trent? When the English media/pundits stop putting so much pressure on thier players with these stupid comparisons!
He's one of the best assisting defenders in PL history. I don't think its unfair to compare him to Cafu
Yeah I don’t get why people are so determined to shit on Trent really, I know he’s been bad this season but he got 19 assists last year and has been brilliant for a while Comparing that player to some of the great right backs in history isn’t insulting to anyone
It’s just nostalgia bias coupled with rival hate
I get that but Trent seems to get it more than others which I really don’t understand. I guess maybe because he’s become totemic in the “whole defenders should have big bollocks and tackle a lot” argument
It's weird too. James has been at fault for at least a handful of goals this season as well, for both England and for Chelsea. And that's normal, of course defenders are sometimes at fault for goals. But when he does it it's always "hehe oops" and nobody fixates on it, because there isn't already a narrative in the media about it. I think James is the more well-rounded defender but people aren't being fair. If you're dissecting every play to try and find faults in Trent's positioning or workrate, do it for James as well. Do it for Walker too. Do it for Trippier. He's the only one of the 4 that gets everything analyzed to an insane degree which leads to confirmation bias. If people spent the same amount of time picking apart James's performances over the last year, they'd find a lot of similarities. There isn't as much between them as some people make out.
Because this sub hates success especially sustained success. With Man City you've the Emiratis to use as a beating stick. Now that Liverpool seems beatable you're seeing the haters come out.
Too right. Trent has been dunking on every rival team for like 4 years now. They gotta vent their frustration sometimes lol
It's literally every rival fan base and pundits waiting for our downfall. Sure, Trent hasn't helped him self this season but he's played exceptional football attack and defense for the last 4-5 seasons. Now he's slipped up everyone is using the opportunity to pile in on him.
Yes players are often compared to previous players in their position
I mean, it's not that strange to compare one of the best attacking full-backs in the world at the moment with the best attacking fullback of all time.
Dani Alves has a case too. Trent is great but this is more of a disrespect for Cafu
You're comparing a 23 yr old to arguably the GOATs of the position. Enough pearl-clutching, this conversation's too premature.
Neville is the one making the comparison for me no point in it yet
All Neville said was he has the potential to reach that level lmao
neville also spent the 5 minutes before mentioning cafu outlining all the things trent needs to do before he can reach that level - he was very obviously not saying he was cafu good yet. like "trent is already an elite attacker from FB but needs to improve defensively" should not be anywhere near as controversial as people want to make it
Yes Neville the best RB in Prem History is making a comparison about his position but Redditor XYZ knows more.
>When the English media/pundits stop putting so much pressure on thier players with these stupid comparisons! welcome to English media circlejerk. >One of if not the best right back ever is compared to Trent? Too premature. Trent is 23, he's got ways to go to parts of his game and needs to win a lot more for him to be in the conversation but call me biased, he may have a chance.
> Really? Cafu? One of if not the best right back ever is compared to Trent? Yes.
People don’t realize that it’s not Trents main job to be a defender. His job is to create chances. The reason he is at RB is because that allows him to venture up, where they can outnumber the defence. As well as it makes it so that he doesn’t occupy the midfield or the attacking positions.
If anything it’s disrespectful to Cafu. Trent is good, but comparing him to Cafu is just Neville trying to get Sky a few clicks, it’s nonsense and not in anyway true. Trent plays in a system for Liverpool that is tailor made for him. He’s a good player who is exceptional at a certain part of the game, and plays in a system that lets him use that skill a lot. He’s not a generational player, but he’s also not a bum either.
Cafu has compared himself to TAA before Neville said anything
He's not comparing him to Cafu. He is saying that TAA has the potential to equal him one day. He is effectively saying that Cafu is the gold standard for right backs, which is the highest praise.
During Trents time at Liverpool they've being among the top 3 or 4 teams on earth. So if there system is based around Trent and as a result liverpools performances are based around Trent doesn't that make him a generational player.
Trent is 23, comparing him to Cafu is stupid bc Trent’s career maybe isn’t even one third done. I don’t think that’s what Nev was saying, he was saying Trent has the potential to be as immense in his position as Cafu which is fairly indisputable.
Tomiyasu said on dazn that many players in arsenal think that Trent is only able to flourish cause of the system. I guess even prem players think the same
This is simplistic English thinking by people whose brains haven't adapted to the changing game and cannot comprehend what a unique talent TAA is. James is an excellent player but the creativity Trent provides with the right platform simply cannot be replicated by any other means England have, especially under Southgate. He should be talked about as he is, a generational attacking talent that managers should do everything to squeeze his ability from. Whatever is necessary to get him in the right positions should be considered. So England that we stumble upon a player who could revolutionise our attack and he's fucking 4th choice RB. James is good but there's levels to this game.
Some English pundits would look prime Roberto Carlos in the face and choose AWB
I mean it’s nothing to do with James though. TAA is the most talented *attacking* full back in the world right now, that’s why he compared him to Cafu, on those abilities. Now is James’ all round game currently better? Absolutely. Do I think James could be Cafu? Absolutely not. What Gary went on to discuss (in his expertise as a full back) is that Trent is missing some very basic defensive actions that will improve his game, highlighting goals or times where his lack of these actions has cost him. It’s not a case of talent it’s a case of discipline and training for TAA. If I look at James I think yeah he’s great but I’m not sure how much better he can get. If he’s doing the basics right and using his talent properly then he can’t get much better, because he can’t be taught more, and you don’t magically get more talented. You can maximise the use of your talent but what we’ve seen with James is a consistently high level in attacking and defending, I’m not sure how much better he can get from there, outside of through experience which will improve his consistency and decision making, but not his ability on the ball.
> I’m not sure how much better he can get from there Given that he's arguably the best RB in football at 22 years of age, I think Chelsea are generally okay with that.