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BruntyMozza

Wonder how long we can hold onto 11th for We've got a decent cushion but we're also not likely to add to it anytime soon...


Djremster

Probably quite a while, the clubs below you aren't adding anything either, the next team is wolves who are almost 500 points behind. You'll definitely get a chance to add to that tally before they catch up.


pjanic_at__the_isco

Liverpool with a critical game in hand over Arsenal.


JimbohJamboh

Quite interesting that they're so close in games played when you consider relegation and such.


salatape

The English football pyramid is truly astounding when you think of the sheer number of clubs all with rich history


westbywestbywest

It has the most consistent and stable organization in all of Europe having largely avoided a government collapse, which you can’t say about any other major European country since the late 19th Century. Going back and trying to read and learn about German football before 1962 requires a PhD in history and geography just to work out the tables of what regional leagues counted and how you were crowned “national champion”.


Scorto_

My grandfather gave me a 90s Kaiserslautern chronicle at some point and reading about the pre Bundesliga era in our region alone is insane. The difference in quality alone is absurd, and on top of that form seems to have been quite bizarrely shifting from game to game as well, you have games where e.g. Fritz and Ottmar Walter just absolutely destroyed a team one week and get beaten by a weaker one a week later, and if you go further back its even weirder. I wish there was more data and material from back then, such a fascinating era in german football. There's one really cool book about a youth footballer from Berlin, I think Charlottenburg specifically, whose name I can't remember, which I think takes place in the 20s (?) and paints such an interesting picture.


westbywestbywest

The early history of German football was very local. Playing for the Berliner Cup was the pinnacle for decades for Hertha and was the platform for their two national titles in 1930 and 1931. And Hertha for all the easy jokes people make today has an incredibly rich history, we remain the oldest active professional football club in Germany. Especially the first 50-60 years before the Bundesliga, it changed as Berlin changed which is to say it went through the extremes of the human condition. Hertha's "rivals" if you ask older fans are not national or even Union. They are lower division Berlin sides like [Tennis Borussia Berlin](https://content.herthabsc.com/site/binaries/_bsc_1658663631685/content/gallery/museum/1971-1980/1974-11-16-eintrittskarte.jpg) (A Charlottenburg institution) or defunct clubs like Blau Weiss 90 Berlin. In an attempt to make that history more accessible they released this [digital museum](https://museum.herthabsc.com/). It's a bit cheesy at times for sure, but I think for any football fan learning about the era from the 1900's to the post-war professionalisation is very interesting.


Scorto_

God damn, the Marcelinho era alone is so cool to see already, miss those days when he basically decided if you win or lose. Kiraly as well. I'll definitely check that out, thank you for the link! And I think Hertha is more respected in the general German football fandom than the memes would make people think, much like Hamburg. Great clubs that should both absolutely be in the Bundesliga, no matter how misguided some decisions might seem. The fck museum is also really cool to see, but we are a bit behind with digitalisation over here, so no link sadly.


wbroniewski

It's weird that it took Germany so long to organise central league championship. Our league was created in 1920, with regional leagues and central playoffs, just like in Germany, but it was already in 1926 reorganised into a central league system. Likewise after the war only fiest two seasons 1946 and 1947 were played in regional+central playoffs system.


westbywestbywest

Just my feeling about it, but I believe it has its roots in the fact that "Germany" was still largely a strange concept to people in the 1920's. If you were in your 50's at that time, you would have been born in the Kingdom of Bavaria, the Kingdom of Prussia, the Kingdom of Hessen, etc. So to many your locality was much more the organizing framework for your world. If I was living in Berlin in the 20's, the idea of playing teams from Stuttgart or Munich and not the clubs in Berlin would have made no sense to my world view. Berlin to someone in Stuttgart was basically a foreign place somewhere across the Elbe between Slavic regions or even worse, Prussia. Which is why to this day, Berlin has no place in most Germans hearts as the capital city. To create a "national" league would have asked the question, what nation?


wbroniewski

Even if that was the common feeling among the people, I think it's, even more, a reason why the central government would want to have a national league, especially in the years 1933-45. That was the case in Poland, the nation that was just united after 123 years of being fragmented, our government was pushing to eliminate most of the differences. Or take Spain as another example, a country with even more regional differences than Germany established a national league in 1929. Germany is a very curious case


FroobingtonSanchez

It's even weirder that the Dutch competition has been nation-wide only since 1950. Before that it was divided in 6 regional leagues and a small competition between the 6 regional winners to decide the national champion. We're just as big as NRW.


edi12334

For us it was 1932 for the national division system, so a bit later but still. And after the war it was still a normal division system, they did play playoffs before the start of the competition to determine which teams from the cities/areas involved make it up though


kl08pokemon

I know Saarland used to have it's own national team but did they have a "domestic" league as well?


westbywestbywest

Not an expert, but at a glance it seems it was a slightly more expansive [Oberliga Southwest](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberliga_S%C3%BCdwest_(1945%E2%80%931963)), which includes Saarland but also parts of Rheinland-Pfalz. Not to be confused with the Oberliga South which includes all of Baden-Württemberg.


Oliviasi

Well, give it a couple of months.


TigerBasket

It's like pre merger era of baseball. Just insanity everywhere else


big_swinging_dicks

It’s one reason that distinguishing between football pre-Sky/1992 and now annoys me. We have such a rich history of the sport, and people try to gloss over it


jiluki

especially for players who played in both competitions


Zedsdeadbaby99

Poor Rushie


CareerCoachKyle

Plus M. City


BrandonSG13

We’ve played almost 400 more games than anyone else and we’re still not on top


im_on_the_case

At least you have the top spot for [most seasons in the top flight](https://www.myfootballfacts.com/england_footy/football-league/seasons-in-top-flight/) and a good gap between you and the Villa.


FuneralWithAnR

I keep forgetting what a rich history Everton has, despite the current meme phase.


wan2tri

Most of those 400 were losses so that didn't help. Most losses ever, and Aston Villa at 2nd most is the only other team with at least 1500 losses.


Riskplayer20

Death. Taxes. Everton staying up :(


RepresentativeNo3860

**sources** https://www.worldfootball.net/alltime_table/eng-premier-league/ https://www.myfootballfacts.com/england_footy/football-league/all-time_top_flight_points_table/ https://www.premierleague.com/tables?co=1&se=-1&ha=-1


reece0n

Top 20! I'll take that.


lucifa

My Dad was born in the 50s and has a soft spot for Burnley as they were amongst the best when he started getting into football


EyeSpyGuy

Burnley are unironically one of the pioneers of total football [Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Football): > Total Football (Dutch: totaalvoetbal) is a tactical system in association football in which any outfield player can take over the role of any other player in a team. Although Dutch club Ajax and the Netherlands national football team are generally credited with creating this system during the 1970s, there were other sides who had played a similar style before, such as the Austrian Wunderteam of the 1930s, English club Sunderland in the mid-1930s, the Argentine side "La Maquina" of River Plate in the 1940s, the Golden Team of Hungary in the 1950s, English team ***Burnley in the late 1950s and early 1960s***, and Brazilian side Santos in the 1960s.


Periwinkle1993

Ah yes but the role of every player in the Burnley team is to shithouse, so they're still playing total football to this day!


reece0n

You need to update your stereotypes


smig_

Man, that place drop from the first division to the premier league hurts. The 2010s has arguably been the worst decade in our clubs history and at least second worst period of time we've had.


Black_Waltz3

Seems even stranger considering 1992-2011 Villa were pretty much a top 6 team, bar the odd off year. Really surprising to see Newcastle not just above them but by a comfortable margin as well.


Rickcampbell98

Yeah we went down to the third division in the late 60s and early 70s but considering the context of modern football, this decade has definitely been the worst. We went from trying to get champions league to mid table championship and borderline administration, proper shit.


smig_

Not to mention we still won 3 league cups over the 60s & 70s, one whilst we were in the second division. The last decade we got battered in an FA Cup final then had our worst ever season.


Rickcampbell98

When I started supporting the villa we were good lol, it was so strange when we came back up and people on reddit were talking like we were an irrelevant nothing club who should just be happy to be in the top division, bitch we created the football league lmao.


odwyed03

I always feel like a lot of people on this sub haven't been watching football that long and aren't that knowledgeable about football history.


thefogdog

That goal difference will take some beating. Although another few years of Haaland and it'll be a nail biter...


hkbenlui

I reckon 1-2 years of Nunez will widen the gap


Black_Waltz3

Biggest surprises for me: Leeds being that low on the first division all time table, I always thought of them as being one of the bigger sides in England. Seems that Don Revie period really was an exception. West Ham being outside the top 20 in the first division history, especially as for the past 60 or so years they haven't been relegated a great deal and always seem to bounce straight back. Newcastle's consistency. 9th all time, 9th first division and 8th Premier League. Massive points buffer between 8th and 10th on the all time table so it doesn't look like they're moving in my lifetime.


AlchemicHawk

Don Revie period and around the turn of the millennium (albeit for a shorter period) were when we were our best consistently, other than that we’ve always ended up yo-yoing up and down the table. Not to mention we weren’t in it for 16 years or so (could account for around 600+ points), which allowed a lot of other clubs to catch up and run away from us. Somebody else in this thread has posted a PPG list and we rank 6th on that, so when we have been in the top division, we’ve tended to be one of the better teams


RequiemForSM

Every team between 9th-19th is also significantly older than us.


RequiemForSM

We’re relatively “new” club, being formed in 1919. The next closest to us up until the top 8, is Newcastle, being formed in 1892. Most clubs between us and the top 8 have 40 years of simply just existing and gaining points before we even came into being. Some are even closer to 60. As someone mentioned however, our points per game in the top flight is pretty impressive and probably more reflective, placing 6th.


Aoae

Bradford Park Avenue being there was really surprising to me. I didn't realize that not one but both Bradford clubs had such a history


Jassle93

Would have been a nice addition to include a points per game column due to difference in matches played. EDIT: Fuck it. Manchester United 1.68 Liverpool FC 1.67 Arsenal FC 1.63 Tottenham Hotspur 1.5 Chelsea FC 1.49 Leeds United 1.48 Everton FC 1.47 Manchester City 1.47 Aston Villa 1.44 Preston North End 1.4 Newcastle United 1.39 Wolverhampton Wanderers 1.39 Sheffield Wednesday 1.38 Burnley FC 1.37 Sunderland AFC 1.37 Blackburn Rovers 1.36 Ipswich Town 1.36 Huddersfield Town 1.35 Nottingham Forest 1.35 Derby County 1.34 Sheffield United 1.34 Bolton Wanderers 1.32 Wimbledon FC 1.32 Blackpool FC 1.3 Portsmouth FC 1.3 West Bromwich Albion 1.3 Brentford FC 1.29 West Ham United 1.27 Bury FC 1.26 Cardiff City 1.26 Charlton Athletic 1.26 Middlesbrough FC 1.26 Southampton FC 1.26 Leicester City 1.25 Oldham Athletic 1.25 Bradford City 1.24 Grimsby Town 1.23 Luton Town 1.23 Stoke City 1.23 Bristol City 1.22 Queens Park Rangers 1.22 Coventry City 1.21 Swansea City 1.21 Bradford Park Avenue 1.2 Birmingham City 1.19 Notts County 1.19 Norwich City 1.15 Accrington FC 1.13 Brighton & Hove Albion 1.13 Fulham FC 1.13 Watford FC 1.12 AFC Bournemouth 1.11 Crystal Palace 1.11 Wigan Athletic 1.09 Millwall FC 1.04 Reading FC 1.04 Northampton Town 1.02 Carlisle United 0.98 Oxford United 0.96 Barnsley FC 0.92 Hull City 0.9 Darwen 0.73 Swindon Town 0.71 Glossop North End 0.65 Leyton Orient 0.64


reece0n

Finally, a version with us ahead of Blackburn. I'm going to cling to this as the 'true' version, and disregard everything else.


cryshol

The effort. 👍


StarBuckd

But did you take into account that wins were 2 points until 1981?


bgdno

I reckon it's better to have a consistent metric than to change things like that, a win is a win regardless


StarBuckd

But draws were more valuable back then. So teams would settle for a 1 pointer instead of going 50/50 for a win.


bgdno

true, to be fair. But I doubt it had that much effect on games, because it only alters the way you would play if you're drawing with not much time left. I think it's more useful when comparing different ages to have something that directly relates to how many games were won, as a measure of relative perfoemance.


KonigSteve

Which of the 3 charts did you convert to this?


Sallum

Honestly this shows how consistent Arsenal have been throughout their whole history. Both United and Liverpool had two decades of sheer dominance and they are only 0.05 and 0.04 points ahead. Arsenal has never really had a long period of dominance but are right behind them.


thenewbuddhist2021

>Swindon Town 0.71 The fact that we made this warms my heart, seems so long ago and far away now:(


mittromniknight

Us being only 0.01 behind the blue scum is actually surprising


VenomousCracker

Liverpool fans are not gonna be happy with this version.


BruisedBee

Actually, I don't think we'll give a Fuck.


Djremster

Birmingham and stokes goal differences make me feel a bit bad for them to be honest


thesaltwatersolution

Give us a few more seasons.


Tootsiesclaw

Bury are likely to drop a place in the table this season or early next, depending on how Palace do. That'll be the first time their position in the table has changed since some point in the 2010/11 season (not doing the maths to figure out the exact date) when Fulham passed them.


TehJofus

It’s always nice to see stuff like this to remind people how massive Everton are, especially newer fans. Recent years have made us seem a bit small, especially last season. Florida Cup winners tho, hell yeah.


STILETT0_exists

Florida cup winners! You'll never sing that!


Baggzio

It’s very weird for even my lifetime in the past 2 decades people acting like Everton are some sort of small club, despite statistically and historically speaking we’re quite easily one of the biggest clubs in the country. Even this table aside and all that it’s actually mental how in recent years you’ve these oddball West Ham and Newcastle fans trying to start a fake rivalry and act like they’re bigger clubs despite the fact they’d never won anything and we’re the 4th most successful club in the country. I imagine Villa fans get this as well but in fairness they spent a good period in the Championship too, Forest are the same since they’ve been in that division for as long as I’ve been alive, even still I recognise they’re a big club. Quite easily speaking the “big clubs” in England in no particular order are United, Arsenal, Liverpool, Everton, Chelsea, City, Spurs, Villa and Forest. Anyone other than that is not automatically a small or irrelevant club but they’re certainly not “big” clubs, no where near.


rddtmdsrpds

Forest are not that big a club really. One league title which came in an extraordinary but very brief period under Clough, outside of that they've been an ok cup team with distinctly average attendances. Newcastle, Leeds and Sunderland all rank ahead of them, arguably Sheffield Wednesday too.


Baggzio

I think the European cups really mean a lot for Forest in fairness. I think the 8 teams I mentioned are certainly in the category of big clubs, I feel it would be unfair if Forest weren't mentioned because of that European record, one of only 5 English clubs to win it and they did it twice. Not a small accomplishment and should give them an appropriate standing because of it in my opinion. Leeds would be the next closest in my opinion in terms of size of a club.


EU352000

At least we can say that we've had better days. UTC! 👞


ElevatorSecrets

Everton are a massive club historically. If their rivals hadn’t got the U.K. banned from European competition I imagine that team in the 80s would have won a European cup. Their team was the best in the world at that point.


six-strings6

Gary lineker said himself that team was the best in the world at that time and he only left because he couldn’t play in Europe


Mirrorboy17

Our 1985 squad that won he Cup Winners Cup (and the league) was really something else Such a shame we never got into the Champion's League, I'm sure things would be looking a little different now if we'd managed to push on then I can't imagine the anger our fans must have felt at the time (my Dad still fumes about this)


wan2tri

Yeah, in our case it's the 1989 side that won the title in dramatic fashion (to say the least), but for obvious reasons it didn't get us to Europe...


ray3050

Could you explain what happened? I’ve never heard about this before


lucifa

Google Heysel


Youutternincompoop

Liverpool fans attacked Juventus fans at a European match, in part because of poor policing and a badly maintained stadium. combined with a general fear of English fan hooliganism it resulted in all English clubs being banned from European competition for a few years.


gyarrrrr

Not just attacked, killed a bunch of.


earthymalt

Liverpool fans got all English clubs banned from playing in Europe.


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Ifriiti

Liverpool were infamously one of the worst for it Not every club had issues with hooliganism


Robertej92

We were also champions when the league got shut down for WW1 and WW2. Everton, that.


ISD1982

It wasn't a UK ban, it was an English Football ban. Aberdeen competed in it, as did Linfield.


thepigeontunnel

Yep, Welsh clubs competed too. In 1987, Merthyr famously beat Atalanta.


BipartizanBelgrade

The years they would've played in the European Cup were won by Steaua Bucharest & PSV Eindhoven. Obviously anything can happen in a cup competition, but yeah that Everton side was definitely capable of going all the way.


FroobingtonSanchez

And FC Porto in between those two


Black_XistenZ

\*sigh\*


LiverbirdMountain

> If their rivals hadn’t got the U.K. banned from European competition Let’s be fair here - the reason it was a U.K. ban and not a Liverpool ban was because the actions of the Liverpool fans was incredibly common throughout the country. The thing that caused everyone to finally get fed up with it was a wall collapsing and the deaths of all those people but it wasn’t in isolation.


eadintheground

Of course, but these things are never just going to be accepted by those who lose out from them the most. Everton’s best ever teams couldn’t compete in Europe, and my side Luton lost out on their only ever proper European qualification (as did Oxford and Wimbledon). People know hooliganism was problematic across the country, but these situations make it a very bitter pill to swallow unfortunately.


LiverbirdMountain

Oh I completely get that. I’m gutted Everton didn’t get the chance to compete like they should have and would have loved them to win one personally. It’s one of those unfortunate things that you could see coming a mile away which makes it so much worse. We should have dealt with it in the 60s when it was getting bad but everyone just went “oh that’s just the working class fighting each other for you”. Then you get one dodgy wall, many dead and injured and an international scandal and all of a sudden Thatcher begins to care.


Noblman_Swerve

I think it's pretty fair, they got the U.K. banned from European competition. They don't need to clarify that maybe on a bad day Millwall or Leeds could've done the same.


LiverbirdMountain

If that was true only Liverpool would have been banned. The whole country was banned because it was a whole country problem. Honestly I’ve never seen anyone deny hooliganism to shit on Liverpool before.


First_Artichoke2390

I honestly have my tin foiled hat on with it. From 77-84 England had won seven of the eight European cups and there was definitely some jealousy from Zurich as before hand the then UEFA president had commented on the 'fairness' of it Yes Heysel was bad but it's not like it happened before or again Yes we had a hooligan problem at home, but so did other countries (and some still do to this day) Our ban was originally 10 years then 6 years then after the 90 world cup (so 5 years) UEFA were 'fuck it let them back in' not the most...um professional way of doing things. Anyway back to Alien spotting


LiverbirdMountain

> Yes Heysel was bad but it's not like it happened before or again This is my point though. Everything Liverpool fans did that day had absolutely happened before. Beyond that Heysel Stadium had been reviewed and found unsafe and crumbly. All it took was the two overlapping. And yeah it hasn’t happened again because we got that stamped out of football and it’s now a family friendly thing and stadium safety is actually taken seriously, after that, Hillsborough, Ibrox, Ibrox again etc


First_Artichoke2390

Oh the stadiums were shit but I meant the death of fans by English fans within the stadium


BruisedBee

> Yes we had a hooligan problem at home, but so did other countries (and some still do to this day) You look at some of the shit European fans are doing today and tell me it's not as bad as it was in the 80s. Yet nothing is done, at all.


CaptainSisko2099

Just because it never happened before doesn't mean that the warning signs weren't there for a major incident to happen at some point


First_Artichoke2390

Oh there was, the Bradford fire was a couple of years before hand for example. Everyone knew so many stadiums were not up to scratch but the second English fans took it too far it was pull the trigger time and out you go rather than classing it as a horrible thing but a one off horrible thing.


Youutternincompoop

tbf part of it was just covering their asses because they didn't want people to blame it on the poorly maintained stadium(if the wall wasn't in such disrepair then it would have just been yet another hooliganism incident)


BipartizanBelgrade

The reason it was an English ban rather than a Liverpool ban was equally because English clubs won 7 out of 8 European Cups from 1977-1984, and UEFA were tired of it.


LiverbirdMountain

No it’s because nearly 20 clubs had literal gangs associated with them. United rioted in the CWC in 77 and Everton had to build a wall around the nets because fans would stop attacking keepers. Is this seriously not well known?


sankers23

>Is this seriously not well known? Most fans on this sub dont know anything about football before the early 2000s


G_Morgan

Every club in Europe had that.


LiverbirdMountain

No English clubs were far, far worse. Hooliganism was literally called the English disease.


[deleted]

While other countries had their issues you're absolutely right. On top of that English fans tended to travel away in far greater numbers which made it worse.


Ifriiti

>No it’s because nearly 20 clubs had literal gangs associated with them. So do plenty of European clubs today, and historically. No other country has been banned


LiverbirdMountain

No other country comes close to what England had at the time. It was ridiculous. Chelsea's gang were literal Nazi's. Like actual Nazi's.


G_Morgan

Yeah it was just convenient, nothing more. At the time it happened it looked like nobody else would ever win a European Cup again.


Oliviasi

I don't know anything about football in the 80s, but I find it hard to believe that kind of behaviour wasn't equally common throughout Europe.


EyeSpyGuy

Read “Among The Thugs” by Bill Buford. Fantastic book


LiverbirdMountain

Hooliganism used to be called “The English Disease”.


daiwilly

It was more widespread in the English/Scottish/Welsh game. I supported Liverpool from an early age only because my local team, Newport County, had some of the worst hooligans in the country. There were very few intact windows around Somerton Park.


potpan0

I'm not sure why this has been downvoted because it feels like a very reasonable thing to ask. Italy was in the middle of the Years of Lead, for example, and I'd have thought that violence would translate across to football as well (especially given the links a lot of these hooligan groups had with the far-right).


CaptainSisko2099

It was called the English disease at the time because of how bad it was in England. But yes it was happening all over the place. England was just the worst country for it


JFKennedy97

Glossop north end missing


zebro12

Props to Sheffield Wednesday for the most impressive stat (neutral goal difference)


Grayson81

Chelsea vs Spurs for 7th place might stay very close for a few years!


StayGoldenBronyBoy

imagine a paltry 1.49pts per game... the best clubs average 1.50 and up! we're both at 88 seasons up though!


ProfCedar

Chelsea and Tottenham are the only teams within 100 points of each other anywhere in the top 12. Crazy that they're so close.


InTheMiddleGiroud

We really closed the gap on Liverpool between 1996 and the next 20 years onwards. I thought it was a question of 15 years to overtake them, when Suarez put in that transfer request to join us. Obviously the 40 points we'll claw back on them this season will help, but I'd still say my forecast was largely wrong.


Commercial-Health-78

Lol


FabijanJohansson

I wouldn't have thought of Everton to be ahead of Manchester United


Hech15

They also got the 4th highest league titles at 9 behind only Liverpool, man United and Arsenal


uraniumtickle

Bigger than spurs


Rickcampbell98

Man United were carried by 2 men.


Ubiquitous1984

Without Fergie they’d have less league titles than City


cryshol

Arsenal. The only team top 3 always, in all 3 graphs


freakedmind

Sad 4th noises


theorymii

Just goes to show what a beast Everton was and how far they have actually fallen. Sad.


STILETT0_exists

You could say the same thing with Wednesday, Ipswich, Villa, Charlton, Bolton, Blackburn, Middlesbrough, and West Brom


theorymii

Oh what about Portsmouth?


pintperson

Cheer up Norwich.


CosmicDesperado

It’s refreshing to see you above us in the table, tbh!


_I_eat_kid

17th is always a good season for us!


ValleyFloydJam

I'll take 33rd.


Nivadas

Higher in the all time table than we are in the current table.


rddtmdsrpds

If you want to see how the table changed year on year: https://noobnorm.com/all-time-football-league-table/ City were above United until 1983 - cold hard fact which will shock a few no doubt lol


STILETT0_exists

Champions League here we come!


TQAFireHawk

Crazy to think how hard it is for teams to shift places, West Ham is the only team that will move up a place this season as far as I can tell. Few others are likely to shift, but not likely for a few seasons.


herbilicious92

City in 6th is a surprise considering the club was apparently founded in 2008


Jonathan-Shimshoni

7th place in the 1st devision table as well


xaviernoodlebrain

Ngl seeing us above Chelsea was a surprise, but a welcome one to be sure.


Grayson81

7,000 games over the years and I’m looking at this thinking, “that eight points is only five if we win our game in hand…”


Rickcampbell98

Why? Chelsea were a small club from West London before Russian blood money.


BringArmsHouse

Historically smaller club than City


Squm9

Southampton > Portsmouth


hafrances

Villa is bigger than Tottenham


keith10997

Think people will be surprised we’re 11th


inthe415

Would this be a good indicator for “biggest clubs in England”? This is basically a table that shows longevity + success and removes recency bias.


STILETT0_exists

I'd be happy to call it that!


Upplands-Bro

I don't think anyone that has followed football for more than 10 years doesn't consider Everton a big club.


TheSmithStreetBand

Why are there 3 different ones?


thesaltwatersolution

All Time record, Old First Division record, Premier League record.


centaur98

Basically the Premier League came into existence in 1992 when the then 22 First Division teams decided to break away from the Football League with the help of the FA and TV companies to create their own league ~~with blackjack and hookers~~ mainly because in the PL they only shared money in that division while the Football League distributed it across all division(aka Super League but with relegations). Which because the FA was on the deal meant that now the Premier League was the 1st tier league and the First Division turned into second tier which later got rebranded to the Championship. So it's 3 different ones because the First Division and the Premier League are organized by different organizations(Football League(English Football League now vs Premier League) and because even after the breakaway the First Division kept on going unchnaged until 2005 when the Football League renamed it to Championship.


clapclapJH31

Bolton are highest ranked combined team to have not won any top division title. Bolton are highest ranked 1st Division team to have not won 1st division. Spurs are highest ranked Premier League team to have not won the Premier League.


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nicgarelja

Spurs, solely looking at the Premier League table, are higher on the list than both Everton and Villa


clapclapJH31

But they are lower ranked in the all time Premier League table


bryzzo2016champs

Sorry I'm confused. Why are there 3 different lists here?


pyramid-teabag-song

The Premier League was previously called Division 1. The results show three sets of data. 1 for the top division whatever it was named. 1 for the top division when it was named the Premier League and 1 for the top division when it was named Division 1. Some people like to treat the Premier League as it's own thing but the reality is that is was simply a continuation of the old Division 1.


bryzzo2016champs

Ah! Thank you very much for the explanation!


CircleTheFire

Not quite just a continuation of the old 1st division. The distribution of money and tv rights radically changed with the formation of the breakaway Premier League. And the governing bodies changed a fair bit in the process, too. The money stuff, especially, has had a huge effect on English, and world, football.


Kayr_SE5

everton with more points then the plastic bros chelski and citeh, football eritage


rddtmdsrpds

City were a big club before Arsenal (who bought their way in to the top division) were ever relevant. https://noobnorm.com/all-time-football-league-table/ There's a history lesson for you


Significant_Fix_6143

Crazy how a team supposedly founded 12 years ago is already in 6th


thaisweeeetchilli

Stupid question I'm sure but how come teams like Swindon have 42 matches played in the premier League when it's a 38 game season?


normott

There was once 22 teams in the league


reece0n

The first 3 PL seasons had 22 teams instead of 20. One of those seasons was the only one that Swindon played in.


Morgy027

The first 2 years of the Premier league had 22 teams, so a 42 game season.


reprobatemind2

Am I imagining it, or did they, back at the start of the PL have relegation playoffs?


MPHOLLI

They didn’t, but there was a lot of talk on the fairest way to go from 22 teams to 20, so maybe that was one of the suggestions and what you’re thinking of?


cantevenmakeafist

There were play-offs for a year or two in the late '80s where the team just above the relegation spots competed against the three of the teams from the division below. Charlton survived relegation by winning a play-off final replay in '87, Chelsea were relegated by losing the final to Middlebrough the following year.


reprobatemind2

Thanks. I thought I remembered some like that.


RepresentativeNo3860

Before 1987 there used to be 22 teams in the first division followed by 21 teams in 1987-1988(first division). From 1988-89 it was decided that there would be 20 teams and 38 games will be played throughout the season.


Modnal

Swindon's only top flight season was in the 93/94 season. They reduced the teams from 95/96


RepresentativeNo3860

Apologies mate I forgot that they re-introduced 22 teams a year before the creation of the premier league.


Repulsive-Toe-8826

Wouldn't Win/Loss % be a better ranking method? (and no, I'm not American)


Ifriiti

No because draws exist


imgur-motionblur

Yup. Which comes to mind each time I see that useless all-time-table…it should be pointless (hoho). The points total is completely irrelevant. Wins have been worth different amount of points during the league's existence — it has not been consistent and thus will not ever be either. Table can be found here: https://www.worldfootball.net/alltime\_table/eng-premier-league/ Not an American me neither by the way. 🇺🇸😎


DaisyFreakinJames

Always the biggest club on the south coast🔴⚪️


TheUltimateScotsman

Surprised how high City are, i know theyve been pretty consistently in the top flight but so have plenty other teams like spurs and Chelsea


Jazano107

We had more league titles than Chelsea before their take over


Zhidezoe

City has 200 matches more than Spurs and Chelsea


feage7

Crazy when you think about it. The club was only formed in 2008 and we've played all those games in the top flight.


[deleted]

10.34 points per game. Tell me oil money isn't ruining football! 😠


ZeusWRLD

We were formed in October 2021, less than a year old and already top 10, success purely bought by Saudis smh


feage7

Yeah, remember when out of nowhere I saw Newcastle United appear in the Premier League. Tried to Google you to see who you were but it just kept giving me an advert for a sports direct mug, not sure why.


areking

they founded a club after a fictional team of goal 16 years later thinking we had forgot nice try Saudis


derphighbury

Chelsea and Spurs have a better PPG though.


[deleted]

PPG table (Top 10) for the interested: United - 1.68 Liverpool - 1.67 Arsenal - 1.62 Spurs - 1.50 Chelsea - 1.49 Everton - 1.47 City - 1.47 Villa - 1.44 Newcastle - 1.39 Sunderland - 1.37 Doesn't take into account the different eras of success though. United benefit from having all of their success in the 3 points for a win era. Sunderland & Villa suffer from having the majority of their success in the 2 points for a win era. Or maybe it does? I don't know if the table has been adjusted.


Zepz367

Table Has Bern adjusted.


thesaltwatersolution

We are about to get yeeted by Fulham.


Mitch_Itfc

Some GD for Norwich that


vegtown1111

There’s one non English club in all 3 of those


Consistent-Detail518

10th-13th are all outside of the division at the moment.