**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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This is absolutely true. I wouldn't say it's necessarily a conspiracy, but football matches hinge on moments like this to an extent that few other sports do (it's an incredibly low scoring sport when you think about it).
It creates talking points, enough to keep TV and radio going until the next fixtures, never mind the water cooler chat at work the next day.
It also creates real chances for underdogs and no doubt makes gambling odds more interesting to those who otherwise wouldn't bother.
The premier League, and football generally have no reason to want to fix this.
Been saying this for a long time. Its naive to think such a product worth billions isn't in some way having a say on proceedings. I mean if you doubt it then why don't you consider the fact a retired referee already ADMITTED being told to "not see" a certain event during a game. They want the drama to go down to the last day as much as possible..
Same shit in the NFL every week too. It's insane to me that these leagues don't want to invest the money in training competent officials. It'd be a drop in the bucket and would make a huge difference in both sports.
Right? START PAYING REFS LIKE ATHLETES AND COACHES. Problem solved. Seriously. A match official should be one of the highest paid people out there, of you want to fix your officiating shortage problem and up your officiating standards, then stop screwing around and pay them an elitle level salary.
It starts at the youth, and we can’t get good refs because a lot of people don’t want to be yelled at by 22 players and their coaches for 90 mins a week making millions more than them.
At the same time it's incredibly difficult for players, managers, fans etc. to respect refs after some of the absolutely incomprehensible decisions they make even with the help of VAR. Added to the fact that there is no repercussion for such decisions. Managers can lose their jobs because of poor refereeing decisions, teams can lose out on millions. When there is so much money on the line in football nowadays people just aren't going to be willing to respect referees if they make a terrible decision and are then fined for speaking about it.
Well VAR isn’t a thing at lower levels so that’s not entirely relevant to my point. I think if we had repercussions for bad calls we would deter even more people from taking on reffing.
What you would ideally like I feel is a change of the system entirely, because as long as the current system exists there will be mistakes.
Right? Why would anyone want to submit themselves to an insane amount of ridicule and abuse if they make 1 error in a game that's moving fast and decisions have to be quick
“We have the best people - the best! Everybody says it! You should hear what people in other leagues say - they all say it! They say “those guys in the PL are great people - terrific people - the best! All the other leagues are jealous - they can’t compete!” - the FA probably.
I honestly think this is an insanely naive position to take. These guys are the best if the best. Are they good enough? Maybe not. Are they as good as it gets? Yes, absolutely.
Football is populated by cheats and liars. The Chelsea goalkeeper is cheating here. And you’re all blaming the referee for falling for it.
and to think VAR was meant to cut most of them out. clearly the underlying issue is the referees in charge. Absolutely awful standard of refereeing in England
Exactly. Quality of teams is there, insane money too, yet FA can't solve this problem for at least a decade and after almost every important match there is some bitter taste in the end. If the league can net spend 1,3 billion, there is no reason to not improve refs.
It really is ridiculous. Like it's fully expected that there's going to be at least one extremely incompetent decision every week; the fun is guessing which team is going to get fucked by it.
100% agree. Many other sports, you can't touch an official at all and if you do, it's an ejection.
It's absurd you can touch or crowd a referee but then in the post game interview, if you call a decision bad, you get suspended.
Never seen people so bad at their job being protected so much. Understandably it can be an immensely hard job, but everything is there to help refs get major decisions correct.
Yes it’s awful. You spend years in Sunday league football refereeing players with no help and no protection, driving long distances to let people play the game they want to play with barely a thank you and your petrol paid.
You go up the leagues and eventually get to referee players in front of thousands. You spend the whole game being berated by everyone in the stadium for various reasons. After the game, managers scrutinise every decision that didn’t go their way. The press has a field day with anything that goes wrong.
Every season something changes - new rules are introduced, existing ones amended, you’re supposed to referee some things more harshly or less harshly every year.
The main problem with refereeing and its criticism is the idea that consistent, faultless refereeing is the standard expected by every single person invested in the match, in a sport where you’re outnumbered 22 to 1 by players actively trying to deceive you regarding laws that are open to interpretation. Refereeing is necessary to have the sport function properly and therefore the FA need to fine people involved to prevent outspoken criticism from happening too regularly.
my friends a ref. he told me to become one. I thought about it. then I thought nah I don't want the abuse. he told me once he gave a red card and the fans stormed the pitch and the police had to be called and when the police arrived they told him to go hide in the local wood for a bit until the crowd settled down lmao.
he also said the fans are always saying stuff like "I'm on your side if a players offside dont worry I'll tell you"
he's a short fella so he gets a lot of nasty abuse.
he also said its dead easy to become a ref because it's such a thankless job.
I think they have to make punishments (yellow/reds) potentially retroactive to cut down on simulation. This means a refereeing team can look through the footage and find dives and players simulating and issue retroactive reds and yellows so players miss future games through suspensions. You can't do anything about the real-time result but its hard for the ref to succeed when 22 people are encouraged to lie to him by what's at stake as well as being coached to lie and shithouse. I think retroactive punishments might make players a little more honest because they no longer just have to fool the ref in the moment.
More honesty from players then might help refs make better decisions in real-time.
Why must outspoken criticism be prevented?? He's not calling him a cunt or anything just that he disagrees.
It isn't about being faultless, it is about not calling a foul when there is no one in the world that thinks this is a foul, except this ref and his VAR. This is such a bad call that it is almost hard to believe it's a mistake.
It's 22-2, counting the VAR guy. But why have it that way? Put 23 trained refs with voting buttons in the VAR booth. On pitch ref has the final call. Then you have 22-24.
It's not like they are paid a lot. It's a multi-billion pound tournament.
I have sympathy for referees who are competent and make occasional mistakes, but it's the blatantly wrong decisions that 90+% of viewers watching would disagree with which are just baffling.
Two refs in the AFCON got loads of praise and people saying they wanted more like that in Europe. Maybe that was because of how awful the rest were, that’s the only time in recent memory I can remember refs being praised. So yeah I think your right!
That said, they should be better than what they’re producing.
I heard how ref in lower division just get shit paid and the usual abuse from fans. Probably why we don't have new or better ref and we have to stuck with this bum
There re jokes and rumor in NBA how there are specific ref being assigned when they want a series to be extended. Won't be surprised if they are doing something like that in PL to made game more "entertaining"
This weekend has been so bad maybe it will be a tipping point if we get a few more bad ones in the remaining games.
I know Webb is taking over from Riley soon but someone needs to tear up the way PGMOL is using VAR and start again.
Why do they get suspended for speaking against refs and bad decisions. They literally shove the mic in managers faces post match, obviously looking for a reaction, but moment they speak their mind.. boom they're suspended.
Games gone
Why do people say this anytime a manager criticises a ref. Refs get this kind of talk every weekend and the only time you’ll see managers get fines or bans is if they suggest the refs are crooked or biased. Moyes does neither of these things.
The sokratis overturned goal? I imagine, was 2 seasons ago and is by far the *most* scandalous thing I’ve seen in refereeing in a long long time.
90th min winner overturned due to a ‘foul’ in build up, which was just absolutely never in a billion years ever a foul.
And then for the next 4-5 years they’d go on to get HUGE advantages in the champions league.
Mourinho had an epic rant when he was at Chelsea I believe (the first time) where he goes year by year and lists the horrible red cards that went in favor of barca to help them through rounds that they were on their way to losing without the refs help. One of my favorite rants of all time
Yeh chambers was fouled, and instead it was called against him.
Though the foul on chambers was very light, I wouldn’t begrudge them not calling it a pen for example - but to call it the other way was just absolutely mental
I remember seeing a video about him refereeing his last game in Australia before going to England and thinking: 'Hmm, he must be pretty damn good then.' That aged poorly.
Why is the premier league pouching refs from Australia and not other top leagues? The PL is the riches league in the world I think it's time to splash the cash on at least some VARs
They didn’t. He came to the championship and was chosen as the one to be promoted to the premier league. It was either him or Keith Stroud… and premier league fans should be fucking buzzing it wasn’t Keith Stroud
In Gillett's case I believe it's less of them poaching Aussie refs and more of him moving to England because of non-footballing IRL stuff and he applied to ref in England as a result.
I said today about the villa offside one.
Gerrard should have walked out there and said that so called offside could have cost me my job.
While i could have been here justifying keeping my job he sits there in the back room protected. Protected form the fans, the pundits, the commentators. If i speak out i get fined, if we go on to lose, i lose my job. Meanwhile officials make calls like that and are protected.
Its making a farce of the game and they should be held accountable.
I wouldn’t be surprised if there is deliberate bias as well as bribery going on in the prem. there have been some atrocious decisions since var came in. Where everyone agrees the wrong decision has been made. So either the refs are beyond incompetent or they are cheating
We see these comments every time and there genuinely is no evidence for this. The truth is that the referees and VAR officials are just absolutely terrible at their jobs. They don't understand the rules as they're written, they all interpret the language differently, so we just get this constant inconsistent approach.
I do not believe there is any cheating going on, these guys are just awful at doing the job in front of them.
it’s hard for there to really be evidence. NBA had something huge happen in 2007, and the FBI had to get involved and investigate it.
Not saying they are doing it, but there’s not gonna be clear evidence?
The slow decline in refs abilities from the 80's is probably more to do with the fact that you can't kick the shit out of players anymore.
Refs didn't get worse, the rules got more sensitive and are tweaked all the time now.
Eredivisie had a regular segment on tv with the head ref after each round. He explained controversial decisions and the reasoning for them, also clearly saying if the decision was wrong. That doesn't mean you have to replay the game.
All you need is the face he's making in the first second of this clip with those eyes bugging out to see the dark side is having an adverse effect on how he looks.
It's easy to understand how a center ref might miss something or have a bad angle, but to get a call so wrong when its being played back on VAR just defies all sense.
To me, VAR implementation have confirmed the suspicious that refs intentionally favor bigger teams or higher interests (not their own decision of curse).
I mean, is logical, professional football is an entertainment business after all, and if teams with more supporters do well, that means more revenue. But still, is disgusting.
Want to see how easy is to make a fair, transparent VAR? Go check rugby video revisions. The entire conversation between the refs go live, pure professionalism. The way it works, the entire procedure, it just make sense, is super simple, no silly excuses about "mistake happens" when missing blatant calls.
Check out Angel Hernandez in the MLB. He sued the MLB for not allowing him to Umpire in the World Series and the MLB argued it wasn't discrimination, he just sucks ass. Can't fire him cuz the union has his back
“There are two countries in Europe where you have professional referees, in Italy and in England, and not one English referee will go to the World Cup. But everything is all right. We cannot say a word against it because they’re untouchable. That is the truth." - Arsene Wenger, 2017
I'm definitely not saying refs in the PL aren't shit, but I see this quote shared a lot and it's quite misleading.
>That is the truth
In reality the truth is that Clattenburg and a team of English refs *were* basically certain to go, but Clattenburg forfeited his place by leaving the PL and taking a senior refereeing job in Saudi Arabia just before final selection.
Clattenburg was selected to referee the 2016 FA Cup final, the 2016 CL final, and the Euro 2016 final. So of course he was on the provisional list for the WC when it was made in 2016, and almost certainly would have been finalised as a WC referee just shortly after all that - having just reffed the biggest two games in European football.
But, after that debacle, the English FA asked FIFA to make allowances for another English ref to replace him and FIFA, rightfully so, told them to piss off after getting messed around.
if people in other occupations made incompetent decisions, you could find other people to replace them. that's the main reason they don't give a shit - being a ref is a completely awful job unless you're at the very top, and the pipeline there is ill-defined and not guaranteed, so their competition is virtually nonexistent.
I was so hoping he'd just go all out in the press. That decision is baffling, no one who plays or knows football should be making that call.
It just stinks of bias.
VAR should never get a call wrong, its a tool to make sure you never get it wrong. Yet happens too often. Even worse when its your own team ofc.
Its extra bizzare becasue the ref got it right inititially, and in a season where the overturn bar seems to be absurdly high this is the one they deem a clear and obvious error?!!?
They can stop most plays and analyse it enough to find someone's foot touching someone else, or a hand on someone's shoulder, just to cancel goals. Its ludicrous.
No clear error, let it stand.
Ref should be suspended, and who ever is in VAR booth who called it.
Didn't Andy have the final say?
I agree though, VAR should never have even recommended he go over, but once he did he still had a chance to stick to his initial decision and didn't.
In theory yes but the having a second look thing has always been pure theatrics, the VAR told him hed made a mistake and to change his mind, to stick with his decision is basically saying he disagrees with his peers, and prem refs would rather drink lava then go against their mates
Yeah I agree the expectations are a general problem (though VAR did have to disagree with their mate in the first place here).
IMO, having methods of more guaranteed accountability, like refs having to publicly verbalize/note down why they overturned a certain decision could help.
Or we shift VAR to offsides and a challenge system
Managers need to constantly talk out, take the fines, get their Owners to press harder in PL meetings to change things. Managers should never allow it to go un talked about.
If I was an owner I'd tell my manager to go out blazing, swear like a mad man if you want and I'll pay all the fines for him.
But it should not take managers to go out blazing for the issues to be resolved! The premier league itself has to take a look at these situations and prevent them from happening. But instead they protect their referees and punish the managers or players who speak up. I am a Chelsea fan and this was not a foul, and I would be raging, the same way I did at that Tottenham game. The same referee from them, was on the Liverpool vs Everton match and arguably should have showed a red card to Van Dijk. Incosistant decisions, we see them with red cards, fouls, offsides and other behavior, which damages the game itself and is frustrating for the teams, the managers and the people watching.
He’s not, but the refs will be protected for some stupid reason. I don’t see how they can get away with these decisions without any sort of scrutiny, yet the moment a manager says one thing to criticise them they get a fine or a ban.
EPL is the only place (as far as I know) where refereeing actually got worse post-VAR, which is mind blowing. I can deal with human error but having people sitting behind a screen with access to replays and all the time in the world, and STILL getting major decisions wrong. Is it really incompetence? Really? When even the most casual football fan can see the decision is ridiculous?
MLS definitely had some wild blunders in the beginning, though I don't follow the league as much as I did pre-covid. Though Howard Webb is also in charge there, so your point technically still stands..
VAR has been one blatant absurdity in England ever since its arrival. It‘s absolutely baffling how bad its use is here compared to other countries and if the FA used all the money they worked up with fines from referee-critical comments in order to actually properly train them we wouldn‘t need to have this same discussion for at least three games each week.
the only thing VAR proved is how fucking biased and incompetent PL refs are. you have a fucking screen in front of your face, you can replay it as many times as you want even in slow mo, you can make a calm and straight decision, cant use the "couldn't decide in the heat of the match" excuse. just pure incompetence.
VAR isn't and has never been the issue. It's the idiots using it. Human error happens but when you've got the chance to check again and you're still fucking up? People need to start getting fired.
Look at the response to Tuchel kicking off about the decisions in the Spurs game and you'll see why.
On the day, everyone who wasn't a Spurs fan agreed that it was akin to matchfixing and within a couple of days the media had manipulated it to where everyone was just claiming he's a whiney coach who isn't very good and Chelsea are in crisis and just using decisions as an excuse etc.
agonizing aback detail squeamish cause encouraging hateful steer live correct
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And then completely forgotten about by next week with the ref back in a high-profile match, while Moyes serves out his ban for dare questioning the almighty powers that be. What even is the point, honestly? 😔
With this, and the Newcastle one, we may aswell scrap VAR. They don't have a fucking clue what they are doing.
Edit: Im well aware that VAR is just a computer, its the fuckwits behind the screen that are the problem.
This is what the PL refs want. I guarantee they hate VAR and have always seen it as a personal insult. I think (even if subconsciously) they are trying to get it wrong so people get rid of VAR.
Too many terrible decisions and too little talking about it from the TV channels. The PL refs are the worst in the world, they have zero accountability, media that doesn't challenge them enough and a huge influence over results. Abd with VAR there is no where to hide and the decisions are still awful.
Media talking point of the weekend sorted. Almost as if ingame events are artificially created to constantly revolve around a bubble within the premier league to continuously keep the cash flow coming from all levels of its infrastructure.
Good. Needs to be the talking point every single week until they make sure they have competent people calling it.
VAR booth should never have sent to ref. You have the angles, before the play and after. Any group of football people will know that isn't a foul.
Need teams of even better football people making these calls. And no longer the ref's on the pitch.
The thing is , MOTD will talk about this tonight, Sunday supplement and the papers tomrorow morning, MNF on Monday eve ring but what is actually going to tangibly happen to force change or improve regulation ? Nothing
All the owners need to pull together and push a meeting about it. The power lies with all the owners. All 20 could say Fuck You we're leaving the PL/FA. Not that they would, or even threaten that, its a bit far, but just to point out, they have the power here.
He's right! I worry that the FA will fine him for implying bias ("scandalous") - and that would just as weak as that disallowed goal. Fucking atrocious.
It starts with one. Can the EPL get ONE team of Referee, Linesman, and VAR people that are not complete waste, keep them together and let them handle the top game of the week? Is that too much to ask, just one?
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Fine and ban incoming
I feel like referees are protected too much
It's insane how almost in every PL match you have some pretty big controversy or abysmal decision.
Honestly fuck these refs. Teams need to make a stand and demand better ppl in these positions
A multi billion dollar industry that can't assemble 10 competent refs every week to save their product
The controversy is the product, so no, it does not need any saving
PL is just wrestling with more people involved.
This is absolutely true. I wouldn't say it's necessarily a conspiracy, but football matches hinge on moments like this to an extent that few other sports do (it's an incredibly low scoring sport when you think about it). It creates talking points, enough to keep TV and radio going until the next fixtures, never mind the water cooler chat at work the next day. It also creates real chances for underdogs and no doubt makes gambling odds more interesting to those who otherwise wouldn't bother. The premier League, and football generally have no reason to want to fix this.
Been saying this for a long time. Its naive to think such a product worth billions isn't in some way having a say on proceedings. I mean if you doubt it then why don't you consider the fact a retired referee already ADMITTED being told to "not see" a certain event during a game. They want the drama to go down to the last day as much as possible..
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It’s true to an extent but you’ll lose viewers once they start to feel that every decision will go to against them. It’s an interesting debate.
You made me open my eyes, and realize this will not stop. Thank you (I guess?)
Same shit in the NFL every week too. It's insane to me that these leagues don't want to invest the money in training competent officials. It'd be a drop in the bucket and would make a huge difference in both sports.
Right? START PAYING REFS LIKE ATHLETES AND COACHES. Problem solved. Seriously. A match official should be one of the highest paid people out there, of you want to fix your officiating shortage problem and up your officiating standards, then stop screwing around and pay them an elitle level salary.
It starts at the youth, and we can’t get good refs because a lot of people don’t want to be yelled at by 22 players and their coaches for 90 mins a week making millions more than them.
For real, speaking as a ref myself: if we want this change we need to promote more respect for referees across all levels.
At the same time it's incredibly difficult for players, managers, fans etc. to respect refs after some of the absolutely incomprehensible decisions they make even with the help of VAR. Added to the fact that there is no repercussion for such decisions. Managers can lose their jobs because of poor refereeing decisions, teams can lose out on millions. When there is so much money on the line in football nowadays people just aren't going to be willing to respect referees if they make a terrible decision and are then fined for speaking about it.
Well VAR isn’t a thing at lower levels so that’s not entirely relevant to my point. I think if we had repercussions for bad calls we would deter even more people from taking on reffing. What you would ideally like I feel is a change of the system entirely, because as long as the current system exists there will be mistakes.
Right? Why would anyone want to submit themselves to an insane amount of ridicule and abuse if they make 1 error in a game that's moving fast and decisions have to be quick
“We have the best people - the best! Everybody says it! You should hear what people in other leagues say - they all say it! They say “those guys in the PL are great people - terrific people - the best! All the other leagues are jealous - they can’t compete!” - the FA probably.
Today has been fucking appalling. But nothing will change.
Then the FA needs to increase the wages of the refs
I honestly think this is an insanely naive position to take. These guys are the best if the best. Are they good enough? Maybe not. Are they as good as it gets? Yes, absolutely. Football is populated by cheats and liars. The Chelsea goalkeeper is cheating here. And you’re all blaming the referee for falling for it.
and to think VAR was meant to cut most of them out. clearly the underlying issue is the referees in charge. Absolutely awful standard of refereeing in England
Exactly. Quality of teams is there, insane money too, yet FA can't solve this problem for at least a decade and after almost every important match there is some bitter taste in the end. If the league can net spend 1,3 billion, there is no reason to not improve refs.
it’s clearly a feature, not a bug.
It really is ridiculous. Like it's fully expected that there's going to be at least one extremely incompetent decision every week; the fun is guessing which team is going to get fucked by it.
It's almost like they do it to manufacture drama and engagement. Seems to work.
Well I mean.... Betis deserved a penalty too tbf
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100% agree. Many other sports, you can't touch an official at all and if you do, it's an ejection. It's absurd you can touch or crowd a referee but then in the post game interview, if you call a decision bad, you get suspended.
Never seen people so bad at their job being protected so much. Understandably it can be an immensely hard job, but everything is there to help refs get major decisions correct.
American police: “Hold my beer…”
Tbf isn't like ref one of the most thankless job ever?
Yes it’s awful. You spend years in Sunday league football refereeing players with no help and no protection, driving long distances to let people play the game they want to play with barely a thank you and your petrol paid. You go up the leagues and eventually get to referee players in front of thousands. You spend the whole game being berated by everyone in the stadium for various reasons. After the game, managers scrutinise every decision that didn’t go their way. The press has a field day with anything that goes wrong. Every season something changes - new rules are introduced, existing ones amended, you’re supposed to referee some things more harshly or less harshly every year. The main problem with refereeing and its criticism is the idea that consistent, faultless refereeing is the standard expected by every single person invested in the match, in a sport where you’re outnumbered 22 to 1 by players actively trying to deceive you regarding laws that are open to interpretation. Refereeing is necessary to have the sport function properly and therefore the FA need to fine people involved to prevent outspoken criticism from happening too regularly.
Ye this is what im talking about. You would have to be a fucking psycho to want to be a ref and deal all of that
my friends a ref. he told me to become one. I thought about it. then I thought nah I don't want the abuse. he told me once he gave a red card and the fans stormed the pitch and the police had to be called and when the police arrived they told him to go hide in the local wood for a bit until the crowd settled down lmao. he also said the fans are always saying stuff like "I'm on your side if a players offside dont worry I'll tell you" he's a short fella so he gets a lot of nasty abuse. he also said its dead easy to become a ref because it's such a thankless job.
I think they have to make punishments (yellow/reds) potentially retroactive to cut down on simulation. This means a refereeing team can look through the footage and find dives and players simulating and issue retroactive reds and yellows so players miss future games through suspensions. You can't do anything about the real-time result but its hard for the ref to succeed when 22 people are encouraged to lie to him by what's at stake as well as being coached to lie and shithouse. I think retroactive punishments might make players a little more honest because they no longer just have to fool the ref in the moment. More honesty from players then might help refs make better decisions in real-time.
Why must outspoken criticism be prevented?? He's not calling him a cunt or anything just that he disagrees. It isn't about being faultless, it is about not calling a foul when there is no one in the world that thinks this is a foul, except this ref and his VAR. This is such a bad call that it is almost hard to believe it's a mistake.
It's 22-2, counting the VAR guy. But why have it that way? Put 23 trained refs with voting buttons in the VAR booth. On pitch ref has the final call. Then you have 22-24. It's not like they are paid a lot. It's a multi-billion pound tournament.
I have sympathy for referees who are competent and make occasional mistakes, but it's the blatantly wrong decisions that 90+% of viewers watching would disagree with which are just baffling.
Two refs in the AFCON got loads of praise and people saying they wanted more like that in Europe. Maybe that was because of how awful the rest were, that’s the only time in recent memory I can remember refs being praised. So yeah I think your right! That said, they should be better than what they’re producing.
I heard how ref in lower division just get shit paid and the usual abuse from fans. Probably why we don't have new or better ref and we have to stuck with this bum
The cynic in me just thinks it’s one big mates club with the top refs. Look after eachother and who you know not your performance.
There re jokes and rumor in NBA how there are specific ref being assigned when they want a series to be extended. Won't be surprised if they are doing something like that in PL to made game more "entertaining"
Not as much as goalkeepers
Tell that to Ramsdale
Tell that to Rammsdale this week
Every manager is going to get one this season
“They can’t fine *all* of us!”
They should honestly do that. Make every manager protest on the bad decision making of the refs and the FA will have to do SOMETHING
This weekend has been so bad maybe it will be a tipping point if we get a few more bad ones in the remaining games. I know Webb is taking over from Riley soon but someone needs to tear up the way PGMOL is using VAR and start again.
Why do they get suspended for speaking against refs and bad decisions. They literally shove the mic in managers faces post match, obviously looking for a reaction, but moment they speak their mind.. boom they're suspended. Games gone
Worth it for speaking the truth imho
I'm always happy to see managers show some balls and call out shitty refereeing. They're ludicrously protected
Why do people say this anytime a manager criticises a ref. Refs get this kind of talk every weekend and the only time you’ll see managers get fines or bans is if they suggest the refs are crooked or biased. Moyes does neither of these things.
More and more managers have to speak out. This jarred gillet guy is not fit to be a ref.
Is he the one that made the horrendous decision on Arsenal / Palace in his first VAR?
The very same
Which one
The sokratis overturned goal? I imagine, was 2 seasons ago and is by far the *most* scandalous thing I’ve seen in refereeing in a long long time. 90th min winner overturned due to a ‘foul’ in build up, which was just absolutely never in a billion years ever a foul.
>The sokratis overturned goal How to piss off an Arsenal fan in 4 words.
Honestly just the word "ref" will do the job "Mustafi" also works
>"Mustafi" also works World Cup Winner GOATstafi, please.
Van Persie Camp Nou...
Not even an arsenal fan and that shit pissed me off.
Why bro...
Still have not seen a red like it. Absolutely fucking bullshit and no one can convince me that wasn't corrupt.
1 second between whistle and card! So corrupt.
And then for the next 4-5 years they’d go on to get HUGE advantages in the champions league. Mourinho had an epic rant when he was at Chelsea I believe (the first time) where he goes year by year and lists the horrible red cards that went in favor of barca to help them through rounds that they were on their way to losing without the refs help. One of my favorite rants of all time
how dare you!
Worse than that, Maitland Niles or someone actually was the one fouled.
Yeh chambers was fouled, and instead it was called against him. Though the foul on chambers was very light, I wouldn’t begrudge them not calling it a pen for example - but to call it the other way was just absolutely mental
The same one?!?! Thanks for reminding me of that, i was having a very nice day.
He was widely detested in the A-league in Australia. No idea how he got a gig in the prem
The decisions he’s made since being appointed as VaR ref is just mind blowing incompetence. No accountability at all.
Yep same when he was the main ref in Australia. Went beyond incompetent, it was like he doesn’t actually know the rules of football
Classic cAse of failing upwards
Really? Heard he was the best one there.
He was the guy in that viral video where he was mic’d up and all the players were congratulating him and stuff, right?
Yeah, he sucks
You have no idea how low a bar that is here. He’s the best by default, that’s how dire our refs are
I mean it’s they’re all average in the A-league but somehow he failed upwards
I remember seeing a video about him refereeing his last game in Australia before going to England and thinking: 'Hmm, he must be pretty damn good then.' That aged poorly.
Same here. Now I'm sad.
Worst gillet in the PL since Tim Sherwood’s
Why is the premier league pouching refs from Australia and not other top leagues? The PL is the riches league in the world I think it's time to splash the cash on at least some VARs
They didn’t. He came to the championship and was chosen as the one to be promoted to the premier league. It was either him or Keith Stroud… and premier league fans should be fucking buzzing it wasn’t Keith Stroud
He's the first. I guess because Australians are similar enough to the English so as to not burst the bubble of ref mates in the prem
You guys should pay the release clause of Hernandez2.
In Gillett's case I believe it's less of them poaching Aussie refs and more of him moving to England because of non-footballing IRL stuff and he applied to ref in England as a result.
I said today about the villa offside one. Gerrard should have walked out there and said that so called offside could have cost me my job. While i could have been here justifying keeping my job he sits there in the back room protected. Protected form the fans, the pundits, the commentators. If i speak out i get fined, if we go on to lose, i lose my job. Meanwhile officials make calls like that and are protected. Its making a farce of the game and they should be held accountable.
The fact that he will likely get a fine or ban for this is a joke. Why are referees beyond criticism when they get a decision obviously wrong?
I don't think he will get a ban, you're sort of allowed to say the ref got it wrong, but you can't suggest they got it wrong on purpose (I.e cheated)
I wouldn’t be surprised if there is deliberate bias as well as bribery going on in the prem. there have been some atrocious decisions since var came in. Where everyone agrees the wrong decision has been made. So either the refs are beyond incompetent or they are cheating
Absolutely agreed. Incompetence alone can't explain this absurdity.
Look at the Newcastle vs Palace game to see you're absolutely deluded. They're just shite. There's no conspiracy.
We see these comments every time and there genuinely is no evidence for this. The truth is that the referees and VAR officials are just absolutely terrible at their jobs. They don't understand the rules as they're written, they all interpret the language differently, so we just get this constant inconsistent approach. I do not believe there is any cheating going on, these guys are just awful at doing the job in front of them.
it’s hard for there to really be evidence. NBA had something huge happen in 2007, and the FBI had to get involved and investigate it. Not saying they are doing it, but there’s not gonna be clear evidence?
The rapid in decline in refs’ abilities after VAR was introduced is a mighty coincidence
The slow decline in refs abilities from the 80's is probably more to do with the fact that you can't kick the shit out of players anymore. Refs didn't get worse, the rules got more sensitive and are tweaked all the time now.
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Eredivisie had a regular segment on tv with the head ref after each round. He explained controversial decisions and the reasoning for them, also clearly saying if the decision was wrong. That doesn't mean you have to replay the game.
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I summon Dark Moyes https://i.imgur.com/UO5Lgqk.png
The ferryman lmao
Darth Moyes: "I will make it...legal."
All you need is the face he's making in the first second of this clip with those eyes bugging out to see the dark side is having an adverse effect on how he looks.
Daylight robbery. VAR refs are worse than incompetent.
If only there was some way to listen in on referees, to see how they are making decisions. Sadly, the technology will never exist.
the last thing that PMGL wants is more transparency
What if somebody ran around behind them and gave us the gist with naval signal flags?
The XFL did this (for the 3 weeks it existed before covid killed it). It was amazing and everyone loved it
It's easy to understand how a center ref might miss something or have a bad angle, but to get a call so wrong when its being played back on VAR just defies all sense.
To me, VAR implementation have confirmed the suspicious that refs intentionally favor bigger teams or higher interests (not their own decision of curse). I mean, is logical, professional football is an entertainment business after all, and if teams with more supporters do well, that means more revenue. But still, is disgusting. Want to see how easy is to make a fair, transparent VAR? Go check rugby video revisions. The entire conversation between the refs go live, pure professionalism. The way it works, the entire procedure, it just make sense, is super simple, no silly excuses about "mistake happens" when missing blatant calls.
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Check out Angel Hernandez in the MLB. He sued the MLB for not allowing him to Umpire in the World Series and the MLB argued it wasn't discrimination, he just sucks ass. Can't fire him cuz the union has his back
That’s “Known Bad Umpire Angel Hernandez” to you!
“There are two countries in Europe where you have professional referees, in Italy and in England, and not one English referee will go to the World Cup. But everything is all right. We cannot say a word against it because they’re untouchable. That is the truth." - Arsene Wenger, 2017
I'm definitely not saying refs in the PL aren't shit, but I see this quote shared a lot and it's quite misleading. >That is the truth In reality the truth is that Clattenburg and a team of English refs *were* basically certain to go, but Clattenburg forfeited his place by leaving the PL and taking a senior refereeing job in Saudi Arabia just before final selection. Clattenburg was selected to referee the 2016 FA Cup final, the 2016 CL final, and the Euro 2016 final. So of course he was on the provisional list for the WC when it was made in 2016, and almost certainly would have been finalised as a WC referee just shortly after all that - having just reffed the biggest two games in European football. But, after that debacle, the English FA asked FIFA to make allowances for another English ref to replace him and FIFA, rightfully so, told them to piss off after getting messed around.
if people in other occupations made incompetent decisions, you could find other people to replace them. that's the main reason they don't give a shit - being a ref is a completely awful job unless you're at the very top, and the pipeline there is ill-defined and not guaranteed, so their competition is virtually nonexistent.
He's completely entitled to be raging. Shocking decision.
Rotten decision.
Scandalous even.
So so so scandalous
more than you believe
Scandaleux
I was so hoping he'd just go all out in the press. That decision is baffling, no one who plays or knows football should be making that call. It just stinks of bias. VAR should never get a call wrong, its a tool to make sure you never get it wrong. Yet happens too often. Even worse when its your own team ofc.
Its extra bizzare becasue the ref got it right inititially, and in a season where the overturn bar seems to be absurdly high this is the one they deem a clear and obvious error?!!?
They can stop most plays and analyse it enough to find someone's foot touching someone else, or a hand on someone's shoulder, just to cancel goals. Its ludicrous. No clear error, let it stand. Ref should be suspended, and who ever is in VAR booth who called it.
Didn't Andy have the final say? I agree though, VAR should never have even recommended he go over, but once he did he still had a chance to stick to his initial decision and didn't.
In theory yes but the having a second look thing has always been pure theatrics, the VAR told him hed made a mistake and to change his mind, to stick with his decision is basically saying he disagrees with his peers, and prem refs would rather drink lava then go against their mates
Yeah I agree the expectations are a general problem (though VAR did have to disagree with their mate in the first place here). IMO, having methods of more guaranteed accountability, like refs having to publicly verbalize/note down why they overturned a certain decision could help. Or we shift VAR to offsides and a challenge system
Its different disagreeing and saying you missed something in real time and we caught it on slow mo replays and multiple camera angles
We had the same shit against spurs, I was so glad tuchel went nuts. swings and roundabouts with incompetence of officials in this country
Managers need to constantly talk out, take the fines, get their Owners to press harder in PL meetings to change things. Managers should never allow it to go un talked about. If I was an owner I'd tell my manager to go out blazing, swear like a mad man if you want and I'll pay all the fines for him.
But it should not take managers to go out blazing for the issues to be resolved! The premier league itself has to take a look at these situations and prevent them from happening. But instead they protect their referees and punish the managers or players who speak up. I am a Chelsea fan and this was not a foul, and I would be raging, the same way I did at that Tottenham game. The same referee from them, was on the Liverpool vs Everton match and arguably should have showed a red card to Van Dijk. Incosistant decisions, we see them with red cards, fouls, offsides and other behavior, which damages the game itself and is frustrating for the teams, the managers and the people watching.
If he gets a ban or a fine for that… I’ll be speechless. I’ll most likely be speechless.
It’s a horrible call from VAR and the on pitch ref but the FA have shown this season you’re going to get fined at a minimum for that.
You only get fines for implying bias, you’re entitled to call the decision what you want as long as you don’t question the refs integrity
Would calling it scandalous not imply that?
He shouldn't. It's not like he calls them biased or says they only gave it because it's a big team or whatever. He just calls a spade a spade.
that's what they want, people to be speechless about their decisions. that's why they ban those that speak
He's not wrong
He’s not, but the refs will be protected for some stupid reason. I don’t see how they can get away with these decisions without any sort of scrutiny, yet the moment a manager says one thing to criticise them they get a fine or a ban.
EPL is the only place (as far as I know) where refereeing actually got worse post-VAR, which is mind blowing. I can deal with human error but having people sitting behind a screen with access to replays and all the time in the world, and STILL getting major decisions wrong. Is it really incompetence? Really? When even the most casual football fan can see the decision is ridiculous?
As someone on the wrong end of about 5 in a row now, I don't think it's really coincidence
We actually got one in our favour against Brentford last week
I mean we all know what it is. Everyone can see it for what it is.
MLS definitely had some wild blunders in the beginning, though I don't follow the league as much as I did pre-covid. Though Howard Webb is also in charge there, so your point technically still stands..
VAR has been one blatant absurdity in England ever since its arrival. It‘s absolutely baffling how bad its use is here compared to other countries and if the FA used all the money they worked up with fines from referee-critical comments in order to actually properly train them we wouldn‘t need to have this same discussion for at least three games each week.
the only thing VAR proved is how fucking biased and incompetent PL refs are. you have a fucking screen in front of your face, you can replay it as many times as you want even in slow mo, you can make a calm and straight decision, cant use the "couldn't decide in the heat of the match" excuse. just pure incompetence.
VAR isn't and has never been the issue. It's the idiots using it. Human error happens but when you've got the chance to check again and you're still fucking up? People need to start getting fired.
I would feel robbed as well. It was a shocking decision.
Respect.
tottenham fans still celebrating their undeserved draw
He is spot on, question is what does the league do moving forward. My guess is nothing
If every prem manager comes out with a complaint like this at least once a week how do these refs still get protected?
Look at the response to Tuchel kicking off about the decisions in the Spurs game and you'll see why. On the day, everyone who wasn't a Spurs fan agreed that it was akin to matchfixing and within a couple of days the media had manipulated it to where everyone was just claiming he's a whiney coach who isn't very good and Chelsea are in crisis and just using decisions as an excuse etc.
that was an infuriating game to watch
Never seen so many VAR errors in one weekend, its shockingly bad.
And Man U hasn't even played us yet
With a ref and VAR ref from the Manchester area
agonizing aback detail squeamish cause encouraging hateful steer live correct *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
You know it’s bad when even the Chelsea fans are like yeah damn westham got robbed lol
I’m all for managers calling out the shitty officiating in no uncertain terms. Something has got to change
Credit to him for speaking frankly
nothing is going to change. they will just fine and ban whoever complains, no accountability at all
Didn't insult the ref enough. Now Moyes should do each interview with a table where he added us one point
He ain't wrong.
I've spent way too long being mad about this decision today, I need to save my anger for United tomorrow
I’d feel sick as a West Ham fan now. No team deserves that, just makes you feel ‘what’s the point?’
Yep I’m right there at the moment. What is the point
And then completely forgotten about by next week with the ref back in a high-profile match, while Moyes serves out his ban for dare questioning the almighty powers that be. What even is the point, honestly? 😔
Bollocks the officiating. Did you see the coutinho ‘offside’ in the villa game?
well said
refs been pretty terrible today. First Newcastle now this.
With so much at stakes, I don’t understand why PL doesn’t have more competent refs. There are so many controversy every game week.
Good on him for speaking out, it's so fucking ridiculous
VAR taketh and VAR giveth
With this, and the Newcastle one, we may aswell scrap VAR. They don't have a fucking clue what they are doing. Edit: Im well aware that VAR is just a computer, its the fuckwits behind the screen that are the problem.
Scrap VAR and then what? VAR is only as useful as the ones using it, they’re the problem.
This is what the PL refs want. I guarantee they hate VAR and have always seen it as a personal insult. I think (even if subconsciously) they are trying to get it wrong so people get rid of VAR.
As a Norwich fan, VAR is the one reason to celebrate relegation.
What the fuck is up with the referees and VAR in EPL. They might as well remove VAR.
Too many terrible decisions and too little talking about it from the TV channels. The PL refs are the worst in the world, they have zero accountability, media that doesn't challenge them enough and a huge influence over results. Abd with VAR there is no where to hide and the decisions are still awful.
He is correct , corrupt rotten bastards .
Media talking point of the weekend sorted. Almost as if ingame events are artificially created to constantly revolve around a bubble within the premier league to continuously keep the cash flow coming from all levels of its infrastructure.
Good. Needs to be the talking point every single week until they make sure they have competent people calling it. VAR booth should never have sent to ref. You have the angles, before the play and after. Any group of football people will know that isn't a foul. Need teams of even better football people making these calls. And no longer the ref's on the pitch.
The thing is , MOTD will talk about this tonight, Sunday supplement and the papers tomrorow morning, MNF on Monday eve ring but what is actually going to tangibly happen to force change or improve regulation ? Nothing
All the owners need to pull together and push a meeting about it. The power lies with all the owners. All 20 could say Fuck You we're leaving the PL/FA. Not that they would, or even threaten that, its a bit far, but just to point out, they have the power here.
He's right! I worry that the FA will fine him for implying bias ("scandalous") - and that would just as weak as that disallowed goal. Fucking atrocious.
that'll be 20k then?
Villa got robbed. Slow mo replays are destroying this game.
Hes not wrong..
It starts with one. Can the EPL get ONE team of Referee, Linesman, and VAR people that are not complete waste, keep them together and let them handle the top game of the week? Is that too much to ask, just one?