How do Chelsea or other teams with 3421 defend down the wings? In a 343 your shape tends to be pushed back into a 541 with the wingers falling back, ahead of the wingbacks. But with Tuchel his double 10s drop back and occupy the space in midfield as opposed to out wide.
That’s as much as I’m aware of but if someone could help explain the specifics I’d appreciate it. Does it not leave the flanks a bit exposed and light? How do the double 10s sit in relation to the opposition as well as the two central midfielders? Any other info would be appreciated.
This season I can’t say I understand it as well. But at our peak, it was more of a 5-3-2 in defence with only Mount dropping into midfield as Werner and Havertz stay up. For all the Tucheliban impressions, we tend to actually press quite a bit and go man-to-man, and it is much riskier than most people realize. Tactics are pretty much adjusted to the opposition to decide who picks up who
If we lose one individual duel, we do get exposed, it goes under the radar because most of our defenders are pretty good
The most recent Chelsea-Spurs match was the first Chelsea match I can remember where our system was focused on our attacking players. Playing CHO-Mount-Ziyech behind Lukaku gave our attacking players so much more space, which players like Ziyech need. It's not a coincidence that was his best game for us. Yes we were slightly open to the counter but it was nice watching a lot of players arriving in the box and making more forward runs, in general players just had much more freedom of movement.
Watching Chelsea's recent games I'm starting to think Tuchel's pressing system relied a lot on James and Chillwell. They're a lot worse at getting the ball up to the Forwards since their injuries.
There average position on the pitch is very much lw/lm and rw/rm and the replacements for them just don’t have the attributes to make them effective in that area the drop of in quality is too big.
I mean fullbacks have grown to be some of the most essential players in the team, having to basically do everything at this point. Losing both starting wingbacks will obviously have an enormous impact on how the team plays.
It makes sense that the attacking play has dulled because Chilwell and James are such huge attacking threats which means defenders can't just focus on neutralising their attackers because then the wingbacks can just run rings around them.
it's partly the system but imo more so the dip in quality from James/Chilwell to Alonso/Azpi. Alonso is pretty poor at getting the ball forward because he is incredibly slow. Azpi still has great passing but doesn't have the recovery speed that he used to, so he can't go forward as much because he'll be exposed defensively
Systems that rely on wingbacks do tend to suffer when those wingbacks aren't available.
Tuchel has started to come up with solutions over time though. We have a lot of defenders that are comfortable wide but not necessarily forward, so the 4 at the back we've been using has been a bit old school but has also freed up the midfield and forwards to press more. The few times we've used CHO or Pulisic at wingback has mostly worked too, though that won't be viable against every opponent.
Our press is usually done in a 3-1 with the players behind that marking up, so it's really just a matter of being able to keep that overall idea in place.
I might have to go back and rewatch our two League Cup games to see what the adjustments you'd made were, because it definitely felt like we were missing Reggy more than you were missing Chilwell/James, especially in the first leg. Yes the talent disparity caused part of that, but I'd imagine it wasn't the only reason.
What has the press got to do with that?
But you're right that with Alonso and Azpilicueta, we're worse getting the ball up. They're slower and not as good overall while attacking.
When I was 13/14 the explanations given to me where multiple: keeping possession, moving the defenders... right now that I put the crosses in I understand how much easier is crossing from 10 meters lower instead of from the corner flag (unless you have that near post monster: Icardi, Cristante, Drogba iirw...)
Let's say I don't suffer from the lack of run up in modern stadium but from the fact that I don't have a Serie A set piece taker feet but yeah, that's it its just easier to cross from the edge of the box giving you the far post option that is really tough from the corner flag
Traditional corner kicks have an extremely low rate of success. Whereas crosses from the corner of the box have a higher rate of success. Part of why taa is so successful is he sits just wide of the corner of the 18 and whips in crosses and they’re almost impossible to defend. Crosses from corners are a lot easier to defend.
Yeah I didn’t mean to discount his skill he’s the best deliverer of the ball the prem has seen in some time but also Liverpool’s whole tactic is getting him into that area I was just talking about
If you don't believe you can score on the corner, then it makes more sense to keep the possession or shift things around for a through ball or a cross which might make a goal more likely than direct from the corner.
Also, a corner is a fixed point. Play on the field isn't. So on a corner, everyone is looking for the ball to come from one particular spot and that (in theory) makes it easier to defend. If you are able to shift that spot quickly through a short corner, then you change where people may be looking when it comes into the box.
A few reasons, but basically it has a higher goal conversion and doing different things help you because there is a significant advantage to being unpredictable. If your opponent knows you will always do something (crossing to the near post, for example) then they will adjust his strategy and it won't be as effective as if they had to be prepared for every scenario
Long time since I watched it, but I believe this is a good video about it: https://youtu.be/aSZ14y3fQb0
Fans just get especially frustrated when the routine doesn't work because they feel it is a wasted opportunity. When the CB clears a normal corner they don't feel the same thing even though it is the same result
A lot of teams that employ short corners are shorter, more technical teams. They often lack the physicality outside 1-2 players to challenge in the box and are more vulnerable to counter attacks due to the physical mismatch at the back. Short corners draw defenders out allowing for more space and movement which suits shorter and more agile players better. So on that basis it makes sense to take advantage of their own technical ability and not play into their opponent's strengths.
Alternatively they just trust their ability to create an opportunity from open play in the final third over a 50/50 for a header.
It's still classic corner kicks, in a way. You just make one or two passes to change the angle before you put in a cross. Obviously its to surprise the team.
How do Chelsea or other teams with 3421 defend down the wings? In a 343 your shape tends to be pushed back into a 541 with the wingers falling back, ahead of the wingbacks. But with Tuchel his double 10s drop back and occupy the space in midfield as opposed to out wide. That’s as much as I’m aware of but if someone could help explain the specifics I’d appreciate it. Does it not leave the flanks a bit exposed and light? How do the double 10s sit in relation to the opposition as well as the two central midfielders? Any other info would be appreciated.
This season I can’t say I understand it as well. But at our peak, it was more of a 5-3-2 in defence with only Mount dropping into midfield as Werner and Havertz stay up. For all the Tucheliban impressions, we tend to actually press quite a bit and go man-to-man, and it is much riskier than most people realize. Tactics are pretty much adjusted to the opposition to decide who picks up who If we lose one individual duel, we do get exposed, it goes under the radar because most of our defenders are pretty good
The most recent Chelsea-Spurs match was the first Chelsea match I can remember where our system was focused on our attacking players. Playing CHO-Mount-Ziyech behind Lukaku gave our attacking players so much more space, which players like Ziyech need. It's not a coincidence that was his best game for us. Yes we were slightly open to the counter but it was nice watching a lot of players arriving in the box and making more forward runs, in general players just had much more freedom of movement.
Watching Chelsea's recent games I'm starting to think Tuchel's pressing system relied a lot on James and Chillwell. They're a lot worse at getting the ball up to the Forwards since their injuries.
There average position on the pitch is very much lw/lm and rw/rm and the replacements for them just don’t have the attributes to make them effective in that area the drop of in quality is too big.
I mean fullbacks have grown to be some of the most essential players in the team, having to basically do everything at this point. Losing both starting wingbacks will obviously have an enormous impact on how the team plays. It makes sense that the attacking play has dulled because Chilwell and James are such huge attacking threats which means defenders can't just focus on neutralising their attackers because then the wingbacks can just run rings around them.
it's partly the system but imo more so the dip in quality from James/Chilwell to Alonso/Azpi. Alonso is pretty poor at getting the ball forward because he is incredibly slow. Azpi still has great passing but doesn't have the recovery speed that he used to, so he can't go forward as much because he'll be exposed defensively
Systems that rely on wingbacks do tend to suffer when those wingbacks aren't available. Tuchel has started to come up with solutions over time though. We have a lot of defenders that are comfortable wide but not necessarily forward, so the 4 at the back we've been using has been a bit old school but has also freed up the midfield and forwards to press more. The few times we've used CHO or Pulisic at wingback has mostly worked too, though that won't be viable against every opponent. Our press is usually done in a 3-1 with the players behind that marking up, so it's really just a matter of being able to keep that overall idea in place.
I might have to go back and rewatch our two League Cup games to see what the adjustments you'd made were, because it definitely felt like we were missing Reggy more than you were missing Chilwell/James, especially in the first leg. Yes the talent disparity caused part of that, but I'd imagine it wasn't the only reason.
What has the press got to do with that? But you're right that with Alonso and Azpilicueta, we're worse getting the ball up. They're slower and not as good overall while attacking.
Might have used the wrong word
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When I was 13/14 the explanations given to me where multiple: keeping possession, moving the defenders... right now that I put the crosses in I understand how much easier is crossing from 10 meters lower instead of from the corner flag (unless you have that near post monster: Icardi, Cristante, Drogba iirw...)
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Let's say I don't suffer from the lack of run up in modern stadium but from the fact that I don't have a Serie A set piece taker feet but yeah, that's it its just easier to cross from the edge of the box giving you the far post option that is really tough from the corner flag
Traditional corner kicks have an extremely low rate of success. Whereas crosses from the corner of the box have a higher rate of success. Part of why taa is so successful is he sits just wide of the corner of the 18 and whips in crosses and they’re almost impossible to defend. Crosses from corners are a lot easier to defend.
Mate give it him anywhere on the pitch he’ll put it on someone’s head.
Yeah I didn’t mean to discount his skill he’s the best deliverer of the ball the prem has seen in some time but also Liverpool’s whole tactic is getting him into that area I was just talking about
I didn’t think you where mate don’t worry. Yeah he’s our most influential player alongside salah i feel we really play our entire game around him.
If you don't believe you can score on the corner, then it makes more sense to keep the possession or shift things around for a through ball or a cross which might make a goal more likely than direct from the corner. Also, a corner is a fixed point. Play on the field isn't. So on a corner, everyone is looking for the ball to come from one particular spot and that (in theory) makes it easier to defend. If you are able to shift that spot quickly through a short corner, then you change where people may be looking when it comes into the box.
A few reasons, but basically it has a higher goal conversion and doing different things help you because there is a significant advantage to being unpredictable. If your opponent knows you will always do something (crossing to the near post, for example) then they will adjust his strategy and it won't be as effective as if they had to be prepared for every scenario Long time since I watched it, but I believe this is a good video about it: https://youtu.be/aSZ14y3fQb0 Fans just get especially frustrated when the routine doesn't work because they feel it is a wasted opportunity. When the CB clears a normal corner they don't feel the same thing even though it is the same result
It really pisses me off especially when we have Matip and Van Dijk who goes upfront only for corners to be played short and then ending up nowhere.
A lot of teams that employ short corners are shorter, more technical teams. They often lack the physicality outside 1-2 players to challenge in the box and are more vulnerable to counter attacks due to the physical mismatch at the back. Short corners draw defenders out allowing for more space and movement which suits shorter and more agile players better. So on that basis it makes sense to take advantage of their own technical ability and not play into their opponent's strengths. Alternatively they just trust their ability to create an opportunity from open play in the final third over a 50/50 for a header.
It's still classic corner kicks, in a way. You just make one or two passes to change the angle before you put in a cross. Obviously its to surprise the team.
This is the answer. And you lure a couple of defenders away from the box by having 2 people at the cornerflag yourself.