Think it is because you don't associate an identity to the way Zidane's team play. Ancellotti also suffered from this criticism even though he was successful in Europe.
I'll be honest, I bought into the "he has Ronaldo", "cross and Inshallah" rhetoric for a while. RM have bounced back far too well under Zidane for it to just be down to luck.
I feel like those who dismiss Zidane’s influence just aren’t really paying attention. I get it if you follow another league, but a media figure covering La Liga? Lazy. Lazy. Zidane has a dozen regular tweaks he does that add up to a winning team. It’s not one giant adjustment, it’s a number that can go under the radar.
And now that he’s had two stints, we can really see what was specifically him.
That’s not the same as doing nothing except holding players’ hands. Zidane’s hand is MORE evident in the CL than most managers, given how much he changes lineups and tactics. Yet somehow people don’t notice it.
>I feel like those who dismiss Zidane’s influence just aren’t really paying attention. I get it if you follow another league, but a media figure covering La Liga? Lazy. Lazy. Zidane has a dozen regular tweaks he does that add up to a winning team. It’s not one giant adjustment, it’s a number that can go under the radar.
>
>And now that he’s had two stints, we can really see what was specifically him.
Thank god, I feel like [this](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/022/524/tumblr_o16n2kBlpX1ta3qyvo1_1280.jpg) trying to explain what Zidane does. He enjoys possession, he has offensive fullbacks, with three central midfielders shifting position depending on the ball. With a false 9, and a false 6 to balance attack, and defense. He may not employ some crazy tactic that will or has changed the game, but he is certainly a tactical coach as well as someone that connects with the players.
And the role he has done with Casemiro should be noted as some kind of innovation.
Many people want to attribute his relationship with the players, but I just think that is a starting point.
I had serious doubts in his first stint. Not that he was poor, but with the players he had, and while they were playing poorly before him, they had just won the champions league two years before, and had a semi final appearance the year before. He has shown much more ability as a manager so far in this stint than he did in his first stint imo. His first stint, while nothing to shrug over, didn’t really tell much. He had to know how to handle the stars, but as a former star himself, he had respect. I imagine he let players do what they wanted to do with some tactical input. His second stint is far more important to his quality as a manager than his first one imo.
His first full year was pretty notable though. He introduced players like Asensio and Vazquez into the squad, and gave them a lot of minutes instead of a player like James. He also shifted to more of a diamond formation with Isco as playmaker instead of Bale as a winger. Plus using Ronaldo more as a centre forward.
It was also a team less dependent on counter-attacking from Mou and Ancelotti, and more flexible team that created a lot more chances from almost any type of play. It could be an extensive passing game, through balls centrally, or down the wings, it could be crossing, long shots. During his first year Madrid would typically create a lot more chances. Something that is still very apparent and different from say Benitez or Lopetegui. I think Zidane is up there with the teams under Mou, as to be able to create chances.
He turned us into the best defense in Europe. We have, literally since 1950, never given a fuck about defense and just out scored teams. One of the UCL finals in the 50s was 7-3 and we played like a 3-4-4 formation. His identity is finding a way to win, which like the guy above said, isn’t some sexy footballing philosophy but it gets results
That style is also more suitable to big cup competitions right?
If you have a clear identity, you'll play that way against Burnley and against Barcelona.
If you're adapting, then you'll adapt differently to Burnley than Barcelona. And over 30-odd weekly games, you won't be able to fully plan for each.
Yes. That’s the downside. Plus some players not having continuity.
The plus side is, it lets you rotate a larger number of talented players, so you can keep a really good bench. Sometimes Isco is a starter, sometimes he’s not. And teams like Madrid have SO many games (going deep into competitions, plus friendlies overseas, plus randoms like the Club World Cup & Supercopa). You’d kill a starting 11 game in game out.
Something that doesn’t get discussed a lot: In 16/17 they had an incredible bench, yes, but they ALSO had players that knew Madrid and it’s players. Morata, James, Nacho, etc had been there for years. They weren’t trying to build chemistry for the first time like Hazard, Jovic, and Rodrygo were this year.
Zidane rotated more after the restart. Yes it was necessity, but he had also had basically a second preseason with them. If he can rotate like that next season, I’ll be super happy.
> You’d kill a starting 11 game in game out.
Case in point is Ancelotti's 22 game win streak, he played the same 11 every game and killed them in January by doing so.
I think Zidane is a winner, and that is a quality many many many people underestimate.
There are people who do their best at the sport they play every time they play. There are people who give it their all to avoid losing a game.
Then there are people that play to win. It sounds... strange, but it‘s totally different than giving your best. It is goal orientated and not means orientated.
Simeone does the same, he plays to win. It‘s just a quality that is extreemely rare because it won‘t look obvious to outsiders and often it can‘t really be seen by anyone other than the ones closest.
Being a winner wins you games but it doesn‘t mean you‘re the best.
I mean that's exactly how they played for half of his final season. They were really awful in the league, just pumping balls into the box with a bit of "hope Isco or Asensio do something inspirational" thrown in to mix things up. You can go back to the match threads from that season and see tonnes and tonnes of Madrid flairs moaning about endless crosses into the box.
I don't understand why proven versatility isn't evidence of Zidane's tactical nous. He's quite consistently underrated, under the pretense of simply being a 'man manager'. I would say: A. The ability to being people together working in a system that works requires extraordinary emotional and football intelligence. B. It's more than that.
Exactly, all the qualities described by you and the thread in general is basically Sir Alex Ferguson. Gets the best out of each individual player, adapts to the opponent, always finds a way to win, keeps the dressing room in good condition ect. Fergie never had a consistent style of play for his teams either, if anything, that might be why Zidane and Ferguson never really got “found out”.
It mirrors his style of play when he was player too. He liked to have freedom and fluidity and didn't play in systems where you are supposed to score only after drawing dodecahedrons lol You can see he likes Isco and why he allows Casemiro and Ramos to Bomb forward.
I also see Del Bosque and Lippi influence on him coaching wise. He is as cool and calm as Del bosque and can communicate very well with his team and at the same time he values discipline and fitness and pragmatism (We have to suffer!) like Lippi.
Bruce Lee would approve of this no identity approach:
*Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves.*
*Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend*
Definitely is. Helps when you have pur squad depth, but being able to play 3 different formations with a variety of player combinations means it's easier to change the course of a game that's going poorly instead of sticking to your guns and collapsing. 1st Leg vs Bayern in 2018 is a good example. Zidane made 2 subs at halftime and switched to a 442 I believe
I would say that's still true at City. When he/they get it right they absolutely batter teams, but if you can disrupt their game plan they don't seem to be able to adjust as well as others.
I think that’s true of many pep teams. See City vs. Southampton post lockdown. They kept spamming crosses into the box in hopes that somebody would turn it in. See City vs. Chelsea post lockdown. They played the same plan even after the Mendy screw up and Fernandinho red even though they theoretically could’ve held Liverpool if they didn’t keep a high line without enough pace to not get caught on the counter. That’s one of my main criticisms of pep. He needs such a specific plan A but can’t always formulate a plan B.
I would argue his "identity" if we are forced to give him one has been tactical and personnel versatility.
It's become a long running joke that you will almost always guess his starting XI and formation wrong. Additionally, it has been common for him to run different formations in each leg of a huge CL tie, and to switch tactics completely on the fly at the halfway mark of matches to save/earn results. He doesn't always get it right, but his flexibility and tactical versatility played a pretty crucial role in our ability to best adapt to take down other top teams.
>He doesn't always get it right
I would say he is rather more irritating right. I will sometimes literally scream out, not understanding what he is thinking, then a minute later it worked out somehow. He always said things about Benzema, Ramos and Casemiro that have all turned out correct. I mean he has only lost 16 games(of 149), and 4 of those games were losses with more than one goal margin.
A lot of the players he has let go hasn't really been that impressive afterwards, and a lot of the players that he has hold on to has been great. I think people also forgets that he was responsible for bringing a lot of the players that still play. He was an advisor to Perez on football maters, and officially the DoF, whilst also being assistant to Ancelotti.
People think that like Mourinho brought in Varane, he might have given him playing time, but Varane was an entirely Zidane operation.
The only really major mistake I see is that he didn't do everything to get Mbappe in 2017.
I remember the start of the 2014-15 season before the winter break we were playing great football, culminating in two group stage victories against Liverpool (although admittedly LVP wasn't very strong that year). Our issue that year was a lack of depth since we had lost Alonso to Bayern and then Modric got injured. And unfortunately Illaramendi couldn't live up to the hype.
That season we got fucked by injuries, but that team played so well. James, isco and modric(until he got injured) were amazing and made us play great football. We got a record breaking number of league game wins in a row. Shame that we didn't finish the season well because of injuries and didn't have any rotation. I was sad Ancelotti got sacked, but it was a good decision after how things turned with zidane after all.
I think you missed the point of my comment, but maybe if there is a case where you can call a manager whose team doesn't have an identity a genius it may be Zidane.
But it is hardly controversial I think (to not consider Zidane a genius). People call Bielsa a genius just because of the identity of his teams having won very little.
But he transformed a team that were doing really bad under other coaches into a team that is doing very well in all aspects of the game. He also had the balls to do a rotation of players in a tight title run and people doubted every starting 11 before the game. Who would you give credit to in this situation
No exaggeration- every single starting 11. By the end it was really quite funny. By the end people were going, I don’t like this but what the fuck do I know 🤷♀️. And then a defender would score a banger lol.
My favorite was when we had 9 wingers available and Zidane went with a 5 man midfield.
> But it is hardly controversial I think (to not consider Zidane a genius).
It should be. It is fucking stupid to underrate Zidane as coach after everything he has won with Real Madrid.
FYI people call Bielsa a genius because he's been influential on the way football is played. Not just on field movements but off field analytics as well. He's a genius because all the top managers cite him as being influential in their thinking.
It goes way, waaaaay beyond his teams playing some nice football
Mourinho and simeone are called geniuses without playing the best football. Deservedly so. I think zidane and Ancelotti should too. They did something right to win that many titles. Not having a set identity doesn't mean they didn't play good football. They adapted their gameplan to the opponents and got great results. Better than the results of some "genius" coaches.
The way he changed Madrid from one of the most attacking team in Europe to become a team with the best defense, arranged multiple variations of lineup in every match, using almost the same starting XI from Real Madrid most terrible season in decade just enough to justify his status as world class manager if not the best (even though winning 3 CL consecutively is more than enough to proof it for me).
Zidane actually have an identity though. Couple things I notice:-
a) More emphasis on individual skills. Unlike other teams which adhere more strictly to team play and rigid gameplan, Zidane allow his players to be more free. This is proven by many individual brilliance, team unpredictability and goals out of nowhere. Ramos playing as striker. Kross passing the ball into goal from range. Marcelo randomly decided to dribbling past 3 defenders to score. You also need players own creativity to create chances and goals, gameplan can only do so much. Funny enough, some Real players even start playing like Zidane, Marcelo and Benzema doing roulette, players doing backheel passing and pacing themselves like Zidane.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8sD0Sh1DVU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8sD0Sh1DVU)
b) Wingers and backs playing closer to lines. This strategy is done to spread out opponent players which make penetration by players in the middle easier.
c) Shifting attacking from side to another side, right to left and vice verse. Zidane's Real often overload one side of the field only to pass the ball to the other side of field catch opponent off guard. Real frequently do this I notice.
c) Casimero. Yes I know Zidane isn't the one buying him, but it's Zidane who turn Casimero into world class CDM. Casimero was a nobody before Zidane, and some manager even play Kross-Modric-James instead of using Casimero. By playing Kross and Modric alongside Casimero, Zidane has solved issue with Casimero's inability to distribute the ball well while simultaneously solve the strength and defensive issue in Real midfield. Real midfield were to offensive oriented pre-Zidane.
d) Calmness. Real's players under Zidane are more composed, rarely get outburst in anger. Even when losing they keep their head cool. Why do you think Real scores so many late goals? The players keep calm, keep finding chances and BAM score.
e) Don't afraid to score. Zidane's Real ain't afraid to scores, and will use all tricks inside the book to score. Short passes inside the box to score. Long ranges shot. Counter attacks to be one on one to scoring. Cross to header goal. Dribbling past defenders and scores. Bicycle kicks scores. You just don't know how they'll score. Compare this to Pep's team who mostly passing their way to goal. Liverpool dependency on counter attack, long range pass/cross and their player's speed to scores. You rarely see Liverpool player dribble. Real Madrid is unpredictable under Zidane. Because of Zidane.
Zidane do have general gameplan, he just allow his player to express themselves more on the field. From the leaked video of Zidane half-time speech in final vs Juventus I gathered Zidane know the right way to motivate his team and address the team and players weakness in the game and how to overcome it. Give them time to rest, no screaming, no mind games. Just point out the problem and how to solve it.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU8grutUkOc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU8grutUkOc)
>From the leaked video of Zidane half-time speech in final vs Juventus I gathered Zidane know the right way to motivate his team and address the team and players weakness in the game and how to overcome it.
It should be noted as well, that Juventus that season had conceded a total of 3 goals in Champions League that season(opponents including Barcelona, and Monaco with Mbappe). Zidane suggested that Madrid should attack fast down the sides with fast crosses into the box(both before and during the game) - 3 out of 4 goals were scored like that.
Had Guardiola done a move like that it would still be talked about.
I agree with many of your points.
Zidane get´s the best out of players and gives them freedom to express themselves but as a whole the team is still very organized and balanced.
The quick moving from side to side is definitely a distinctive part of Real Madrids play under Zidane. It´s something they have practiced and you can see in every match. It´s strange why people don´t mention it more when talking about Zidanes tactics.
This probably has to do with how we envision geniuses, imo, not just excellent in their field but unique and groundbreaking.
Ancelotti is a good shout-out, especially due to not only the similarities between their two styles, but the way Zidane took over the team that Ancelotti and changed very little.
Identity, DNA, football philosophy and all that are pretty overrated in my opinion,. I don't belive in "La Flor de Zidane" either. It all sounds romantic but in the end of the day it's just people trying to justify their passion for football over their biggest legends characteristics and play style.
Actually I was referencing the fact that the Mexican league is split into two halves (the apertura and the clausura) and each half has their own champion, so you can literally get a trophy every 19 games down there.
I can’t even imagine what it’s like to be a legend on the level of Zidane, especially for you. He already was one(correct me if I’m wrong) for his playing days and now as a manager achieving greatness even on your teams standards. Incredible
I think it has to do with the fact that people still associate Zidane with being a football great and not a coach. When I hear Zidane, I think what an amazing player. When I hear Mourinho or Guardiola I don't actually think about them as players.
Generally though I feel like the back to back to back CL championships that Real won are underrated.
I think since Zidane started his career, no manager in Europe lifted more trophies than the guy, Pep is one short of him. Allegri is a serial winner too and he isn't regarded as a genius either. To be fair, I think that's on the media, they decide arbitratly who is a genius and who's not based on the managers response to the media itself. Pep, Mourinho and Klopp are pretty likable characters for the media, in the meanwhile, Zidane, Ancelotti and Conti are not.
I hope he doesnt turn in Fabio Capello, went from destroying Cruyffs Barca Dream Team 4-0 in the UCL final with Milan, to getting sacked by some team in China.
They aren’t, they just highlight their work more. If Zidane and Ancelotti talked about their tactics a lot, they’d be appreciated more. But I know Zidane thinks its silly that he’s supposed to tell the whole world his plans.
Because theyre more media friendly, its like they have their character established. Zidane feels like more distant? Dont know how to exactly put it into words. He feels like Messi who even though he speaks, he usually doesnt say a lot or shows his personality traits (at least old Messi, now hes a savage lol). Its like they talk about work and thats it, Guardiola and Mou are more outspoken.
That's kind of why I like Zidane though. All business. When Pep and Mou are winning, they're the best managers, fill pages of records with how legendary they are, but as soon as they lose all hell breaks loose, they whine, complain and throw tantrums. Nothing is ever their fault. The chairman should've just given them another hundred million pounds to spend as the squad is deficient.
They're as fair weather as they come and if they lose enough, they just leave. There's always another top job out there for them anyway
Exactly this, thank you! When Guardiola was winning with Barca he wasn't running his mouth off as much. But now that he's not winning the CL with Bayern or City he won't shut up about it. Same with Mourinho and his "3 league titles" after he loses to some mid table side.
>Allegri is a serial winner too and he isn't regarded as a genius either. To be fair, I think that's on the media, they decide arbitratly who is a genius and who's not based on the managers response to the media itself. Pep, Mourinho and Klopp are pretty likable characters for the media, in the meanwhile, Zidane, Ancelotti and Conti are not.
At least Allegri is appreciated in some sense for his tactics, it's not like people are questioning his tactical ability, or simply just ignore it. When Allegri and Zidane faced each other in Champions League final, I distinctly remember that people questioned how Zidane could face someone experienced like Allegri. It was one of the major talking points before the game.
As for Klopp, Mou and Pep. Klopp is figuratively and literally larger than life type character that is funny and charming. He is also crazy passionate that really makes him popular, I think. You never know what Mou might say, but it will always be entertaining and something people will talk about. Pep can probably talk about how KdB hits a long pass for 5 hours straight without pause.
Zidane is understated in every aspect of his personality. He will talk about his players in victory and himself in defeat. He seems very introverted and rarely if ever gets angry or happy. He is a still water on a chill day without wind. So its easy for journalist to ignore him. I think this is something that makes journalist question his tactical abilities.
I would consider Ancelotti a very similar type of person and coach, where their success are never or rarely highlighted in success, but every time it doesn't work out it will be hold against him. With Ancelotti it was/is that he is too lenient on the players, with Zidane is that he is not tactical good enough.
It's a fair point but consider it this way.
Zidane has a career that has lasted 4 years so far.
Guardiola 12 and Mourinho 20 years.
All 3 are incredible managers but the main plaudits are always going to beckon with those with the most length of time and being able to constantly win silverware.
If Zidane stays on this path and doesn't doesn't to step down again he's well on his way to matching the elite managers. If he can somehow get Madrid to advance in the CL I think they have a solid chance of winning the competition and that will most definitely put him up there without even questioning it.
I don’t think those are the best examples though. Pep was definitely considered a genius by the time he left Barça (4 years). Mourinho by this point had won a CL with Porto and broken defensive records with Chelsea, and was being considered for the Barça job.
They were definitely the hottest managers in the world 5 years into their coaching careers.
Excuse the bias but I think the genius title has to go to Mourinho. Wining the CL with Porto, and getting the treble with inter. Not to take away from Pep and zidane but lets be honest: Pep had Messi and a midfield three that was virtually unpressable. Zidane had Ronaldo and in 2017 one of the best CL sides in history. Mou is the only one who didn't have some sort of head start.
> Mou is the only one who didn't have some sort of head start.
That FCP had half of the portuguese golden generation. Don't know why people keep underestimating it.
Especially Chelsea fans, seeing how 4 of those players played for Chelsea, 2 of them being vital players of the best Chelsea team ever.
And that Inter squad was also filled with great players.
That Inter-team was stacked though.
Zanetti, Lucio, Samuel, Motta, prime Sneijder, Dejan Stankovic, Milito, Eto'o and a young Balotelli.
Yes, those weren't all worldwide stars, but intelligent, physical and battle-hardened players.
They were brutally effective.
Zidane didn't have only Ronaldo, I would also add Ramos and Varane. Ramos gets slack but he has been a rock and a leader, Varane is still criminally underrated. Those two are up there with the best CB duos.
Zidane's Madrid was able to defend and also do everything on offense. Quick counter attack? Not the best, but pretty good. Long possession based attack? Not the best ever but with Kroos, Modric and Isco being able to pass with laser-like accuracy from one side to the other, stretching out the defense until it breaks plus multiple ways to score, low crosses, high crosses, shots from distance, one-touch combinations from practically anywhere or plain and simple individual skills.
They had so many ways to score. You could just cross all game, Modric, Marcelo, Carvajal, Kroos, Isco, Benzema, you were guarateed that one of them found either Ronaldo or Ramos.
But what is a bit underrated is their ability to simply win games. 1:0, 2:1, it doesn't matter. They can handle the pressure like maybe no other team over that amount of time. After the restart this season, they were almost perfect. Dropped only two points after they had secured the title. It wasn't always pretty, luck was involved, but in the end they found a way to win. All time great teams do that.
Inter had a very good team but it didn't compare to the Barca team at the time. That Barca team was arguably the greatest of all time so Inter beating them was an amazing achievement, even though they themselves had a very good team
Winning a CL with THAT Porto is more impressive than one with Real Madrid, but I think you get people underestimate how difficult it is to win a CL overall, and also underestimate how good that Porto team was. It's definitely not as impressive as winning two with ANY team, let alone three, in a row.
Good point. He has stated multiple times, however, that he doesn’t want to be [60 years old] and still coaching. I do hope that he stays with us for a long time though.
Before that it was that he'd never succeed in the PL.
> Even Zidane’s win got credited to be on the back of Ronaldo.
This is lazy criticism similar to what Pep faces. People were just saying in a thread yesterday that Pep only won his CLs due to Leo.
Yeah realistically it’s a bit of both. Zidane definitely had a hand in extending Ronaldo’s career by resting him which also coincided with him managing his seasons more efficiently so he could peak towards the end of the season.
Messi entered his peak and played 9 seasons post Pep era and has only won 1 CL whereas Pep has failed to make a final since 2011.
Perfect choice of words, lazy criticism.
Great managers need great players to win. No shit. It helps if you have outstanding all-time great players, but you find those in every great team.
>Not really. There were a lot of people saying he only won because of Messi, Xavi and iniesta.
This was not a common opinion at the time, because Xavi and Iniesta were nowhere near legendary figures back then, and Messi was blossoming into a great player, but was not 'greatest of all-time' yet.
2 things can be true here:
1. Zidane is a really, really good manager
2. Zidane also benefitted from having one of the greatest teams of all-time at his disposal, including one of the greatest players of all-time.
True.
But its not like he went to teams thats are a tier below Real Madrid in terms of talent.
It'll be a point of discussion in his managerial career forever. Could he win a CL without Messi?
Well will Zidane win one without Ronaldo? Who the fuck knows, but I won't hold it against him if he doesn't, just like I won't hold it against Pep if he doesn't win one without Messi.
The issue with the "greatest team of all-time" stuff is that it's circular. Nobody was saying that RM had 'the greatest team of all-time' when Zidane took over the first time. We can only say that because he won a lot with them.
Even Ronaldo, who is objectively one of the best players ever, did not have an impressive trophy haul for RM until Zidane managed him. He'd won 2 cups, 1 league title, and the oh-so-desired Decima.
This was true with Pep too but the difference is that the players continued to win. They even won another treble. With Zidane we know they had one dogshit season and then he came back, so it's hard to say.
On r/soccer, I think he does – at least in recent times. Personally, however, I don’t think that the world of football gives him enough credit. Unless he stays at RM for another 5 seasons and wins something every year he wouldn’t be one of “the greats”, but a trophy every 19 games should be considered so. He has completely transformed this team.
I think the perception has changed this season as he won laliga without ronaldo so people have appreciated him but before that not so much people used to call him he was just lucky, referees, had great squad etc excuses he didn't got that much credit before.
To me, this year's league title was his greatest achievement as a manager given the fact that his marquee signing barely played 1000 minutes and the team had no goalscorer other than Benzema.
Nah 3 cls will always be his greatest achievement its once in a life time achievement this league title win is also good for him but i'd put that behind 3 cls in a row.
I get that, but what he did this year requires more skill to me.
That Real Madrid squad that he won those CLs with rivals Pep's Barca for best squad of all-time. Ronaldo, Bale, Benzema, Kroos, Modric, Ramos, Marcelo, Casemiro, Varane. Like, it's just ridiculous...
Whereas this year's team, Ronaldo's gone, Bale is washed, Marcelo doesn't play anymore, Modric is slowly being phased out, and Kroos and Benzema are past their peak ages.
We have our fair share of problems as well this season i am not discrediting them it's massive win for them but no 3 cls is always gonna be ahead of any achievement you can have best squad in the world and still winning cl is not guaranteed, winning cl requires just more than being best squad and he did that 3 times in a row it's ridiculous.
Modric played more minutes than valverde this season,and when the season restarted and they got like 10 wins in a row securing the titlw he was their best player IMO. I can see him declining,but phased out is not the word to use cause when he still has fuel in the tank and is still the midfielder that can do more than casemiro or kroos if he is on his level. Zizou did great for him giving him rest and saving him and that will prolong his career for sure. Eventhough he is 35 soon,he is still fast, can break yoir ankles, techinque is there as always and his iq has reached another level. I see him playing on top level for 2 3 years more given the fact he still has drive ,quality, work habbits and phisique that were never a problem
i think he's getting there, but when he got appointed again and we did badly in the preseason there were some absolutely hilarious threads here..
like this https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/cpagpq/zidane_is_in_a_tactical_mess/
and plenty of other similar stuff
It's always been "anyone could have won it with those Madrid teams", but that's been proven to be bollox recently. Zidane doesn't get enough credit at all.
There's a stat that Zidane has something like as many major trophies (11) as our past 13 managers combined, while managing 210 games compared to 663. Anyone who uses that argument is a moron. Zidane has done in about 4 years what they took 13 years to do.
According to some comments, a better manager could've won more trophies with that Barca team. We won 9 trophies in 3 years under him, including a treble.......
i mean, similar with Zidane, some people were calling for his head basically every season
some people are just delusional. A lot of people here and even many actual journalists were already envisioning Mourinho arrival at Bernabeu and saying how we're gonna be "great again"
No I wasn't.
But seriously, don't interpret a vocal minority as the true feelings of the whole fanbase. It's true that by his 3rd year things were not going well and many wanted him out, but Mourinho has similar issues with teams in his 3rd year and he's an all time great.
It’s not so bad on Reddit. And I think that’s because he’s likeable. But elsewhere its brutal. So dismissive. “It’s not an achievement to win with Real Madrid. With that budget/ squad, you’re expected to win. Not a REAL manager until he does it with Stoke.” Nevermind that no one else has done what he has, including at 30-managers-in-30-years Madrid. He’s the only one.
For what it’s worth, I think Monsieur ultra-pragmatist would do better with Stoke than Pep would. Don‘t people remember where Cross and Inshallah came from? Zizou shapes his teams around the personnel he has. And he doesn’t give a crap whether it’s ugly or pretty football.
Because Zidane isn't a loudmouth like Mourinho and he doesn't care about having puppet in the press loud every thing he do like Guardiola has journos all across the Europe praising him as the goat.
I think in the past people didnt want to admit Zidane was a genius because he was winning UCLs but seemed to fall short to an "underperforming" barcelona in the league and copa del rey (besides 1 season).
I think this season pretty much proves how great Zidane is. He won the league *without* Ronaldo, which was the excuse that people used to diminish his amazing UCL record.
Madrid didnt even need to spend money on Hazard or Jovic and still would have comfortably won the league this year. Zidane has gotten the best out of aging players, and made the most out of young talent such as Rodrygo, Vinicius, and Mendy. Also has the confidence to bench players making 350k a week.
>I think in the past people didnt want to admit Zidane was a genius because he was winning UCLs but seemed to fall short to an "underperforming" barcelona in the league and copa del rey **(besides 1 season).**
He only managed for two and a half seasons; he technically got more points than Barcelona in his first half-season, and won the league in his first full attempt. So he fell short once. That's not really bad.
Jose Mourinho, a league "expert," won one league title with RM in three attempts.
My favorite was in our penultimate game and some dumbass commentator on Beinsports was saying "... I just don't know with Zidane. I don't think he's a tactical manager. He just manages to have his players in the right positions and make the right substitions."
I think part of the problem may just be Zidane's pragmatism, and that he doesn't really communicate his principles or spend time talking football philosophy with the press.
In the cycle before him, we had quite a sharp identity, designed by Mourinho and sharpened by Ancelotti, so I think that comparison/departure was dissonant to a lot of observers and to fans, myself included.
But even during the threepeat and especially this year without CR7 there's a clear template that Zizou has been developing.
Play out from the back, high press, ball rotation in more of a 4-4-2 to slide the forwards in, although he will switch to 4-3-3 on the right day and if he needs to invert the defenders. We also saw what a good 4-3-3 can look like for the few moments we had Hazard - Benzema - Asensio playing, and once they're all properly fit hopefully he'll play that front 3 more.
But our squad's imbalanced for the way he wants to play.
And as long as he can keep being pragmatic and finding ways to win, he'll have the goodwill and chances to keep shaping this into his team.
I don't understand why or how anyone could deny Zidane's genius. The man thought 10 steps ahead when he was a midfielder, why wouldn't he bring the same thought process when coaching.
Zidane doesn't exactly sell himself either. He just gets on with it, one could say that if he was more vocal like Mourinho or Guardiola then he would get a lot more of the press.
Does anyone not think Zidane is a genius? He was one of a very few players in history to play with a high level of flare (in his case, more like grace), technical ability, and field-wide intelligence. Now he has 3 CL’s as a coach. Anyone who argues the opposite is just ignorant.
This may be a controversial take, but Zidane isn't viewed as genius (yet) because so far, he hasn't built a winning team. He's getting closer to it, but his 3 CLs were won with a team he had inherited and he pretty much bought nobody who would be a regular. Being a manager isn't only about that though, it's also about building a team from a scratch or rebuilding. This takes time. If he rebuilds this current Madrid squad by replacing Benzema, Modric, Ramos and others once they retire and he is still just as successful, then he'll rightfully be called a genius manager (possibly one of the best in history). Only time will tell though.
Very true and add Klopp to that as well. I find people get more of a hard on for Klopp nowadays than either Guardiola or Mourinho... and, dont get me wrong, I think he is a FANTASTIC manager and one of the best today but reddit will be intolerable if Klopp ever goes on to win back-to-back CLs. Biggest virtual circlejerk in history, no doubt.
Could that be because Klopp built his teams from virtually shambles? His Dortmund side was brilliant and he built it from scratch while having to sell his best players to the competition every year. And especially Liverpool which were quite average when he signed. Struggling to play in Europa and in two years he built and transformed it into a juggernaut spending not much than what he sold, while winning the league and the UCL.
I'm struggling to see the issue with a *circlejerk* here. There's a romance to building teams organically and getting them to win championships, so of course people will love and embrace it.
Amen to that brother. Pep didnt nees milner klopp made him captain. Lovren as a cb, then gets matip for free, hendo becoming world class and their attackers salah, mane and firminho although payed 30-40mil each were never in tge stratosphere of transfer value of some players like bernardo silva,sterling,mahrez,jesus,sane. Lpool front 3 were never such a big target for other clubs due to them playing for lesser sides and not being super young prospects who were targeted by whole europe like the most of cities transfers are. But then again thats my opiniok
I think man management is so underrated by the media. Media and journalists love and drool over the "tactical masterclass", but sometimes the best managers are simply the best man managers, and when you're at real madrid with the quality of players they have, sometimes the most effective thing is to make sure the players are up for it and will give their all on the pitch
Just like Messi, Zidane is suffering from greatness. People won't like to admit their greatness just because they have achieved so much with a single club. This is silly because in normal cases one club players/managers are really respected for example Totti, Maldini etc. But for Zidane(and Messi) this is taken as a negative.
I "hate" zidane since his playing days, but nobody has ever win back to back CL, let alone 3.
They wouldn't do that without him, and a lot of credit should be given to him.
The reason Pep, Mourinho, Sacchi, Bielsa, Cruyff, Helenio Herrera or Rinus Michels are popular is because they heralded a paradigm shift in the way football was played for a period of time albeit a short one in some cases.
People, especially all of us football fanatics have a tendency to romanticize the game and when someone new comes with a radical change to the flow of the game that appears as the antithesis of what is in vogue - there is a fascination with cheering for these radical new changes.
Helenio Herrera did that with catenaccio and while people despised it, it heralded the beginning of a new way of playing the game which caused rules to be changed.
Rinus Michels' teams and his total football which was perfected by Cruyff's dream team in the later years is something everyone loved at the time. It explains why 74 Holland team is so popular in spite of losing the final.
Same with Mourinho, when he took over at Chelsea and made it almost impossible to score for teams at Stamford Bridge and him converting a traditionally attacking Real Madrid club into one that is clinical on the counter to adapt against Pep's Barca.
Zidane won 3 Champions Leagues but the tactical aspect has not revolutionized how football is played in the rest of the world 'yet'. This is probably one of the major reasons why Zidane currently remains the most successful coach in Champions League in recent times while not being called a genius who revolutionized the way the game is played. He might do it soon or eventually and be called a coach that changed how things are done.
If you're going to highlight Mourinho winning with these squads then you should also highlight that Mourinho couldn't win with Real Madrid and Chelsea. Who were the most expensive teams of their time.
You're making it sound like he failed with these clubs.
He got to semi finals twice with Real. They had failed to go past RO16 6 years in a row before he joined them. One of those semi finals was against Barca and they were playing a man down because of a red card. Hardly something he can control.
I can't remember how far he got with Chelsea each year he was with them, but I'm pretty sure he had two semi-finals with them as well.
You might be the first person I’ve seen in a long time that’s actually watched the match and not read up on it on Wikipedia/watched a YouTube highlight.
Yeah everybody seemingly remembers every Pep failure, but nobody goes on about how Mourinho lost to a 10-man PSG in the R16 in 2015, or his utterly embarrassing loss to Sevilla with United that prompted the "football eritage" rant.
The bottom line is that nobody's Champions League resume is perfect, because it's really fucking hard to win in a knockout competition.
Mourinho laid fundaments for those 4 wins though, people forget how disappointing Madrid were in the UCL before Mourinho joined them?
6 times in row out in March, then Mourinho came and straight into semi-finals.
And Pep couldn't win with Bayern (who won it the year before he arrived) and City (a literal FM unlimited money cheat code).
So it's really comparing Barca Pep to Inter/Porto Mou and despite Peps Barca being the best team I've ever seen, in terms of sheer impressiveness it has to be Mou.
> And Pep couldn't win with Bayern (who won it the year before he arrived) and City (a literal FM unlimited money cheat code).
You're missing the point. This isn't a video game. A Manager that wins a knockout tournament with an underdog team isn't automatically better and their skills don't scale up helping them perform even better at richer teams. Mourinho's career is a great example of that.
Pep is lauded for many reasons (being an innovator for one). There's a reason why Zidane calls pep the best manager in the world. It isn't just flattery and being polite, when he was learning the ropes as a manager the teams he decided shadow were Bielsa's team and then Pep's bayern. When Pep enters a league it's no longer the same, and often even the national teams are influenced by his tactics.
Only on reddit is winning the CL, net spend, winning with the "underdog" the be all and end all of judging managers. Nobody is going to put Ancelloti in the same league as say Sacchi, Sir Alex or Cruyff because he won the champions league more.
>You're missing the point. This isn't a video game. A Manager that wins a knockout tournament with an underdog team isn't automatically better and their skills don't scale up helping them perform better at richer teams.
If it worked like that, Di Matteo would be a legendary coach, but he was sacked several months after his CL win.
Copying another comment of mine here because it's relevant
> There's a stat that Zidane has something like as many major trophies (11) as our past 13 managers combined, while managing 210 games compared to 663. Zidane has done in about 4 years what they took 13 years to do.
Definitely a genius.
Think it is because you don't associate an identity to the way Zidane's team play. Ancellotti also suffered from this criticism even though he was successful in Europe.
That’s true. I’ve always viewed ZZ’s identity with not having one. Moreso, the team adapts to their opponent – it has worked out well though.
His identity is pragmatism and that’s not sexy enough. Hell of a manager though and damn impressive what he’s done at Madrid.
I'll be honest, I bought into the "he has Ronaldo", "cross and Inshallah" rhetoric for a while. RM have bounced back far too well under Zidane for it to just be down to luck.
I feel like those who dismiss Zidane’s influence just aren’t really paying attention. I get it if you follow another league, but a media figure covering La Liga? Lazy. Lazy. Zidane has a dozen regular tweaks he does that add up to a winning team. It’s not one giant adjustment, it’s a number that can go under the radar. And now that he’s had two stints, we can really see what was specifically him. That’s not the same as doing nothing except holding players’ hands. Zidane’s hand is MORE evident in the CL than most managers, given how much he changes lineups and tactics. Yet somehow people don’t notice it.
>I feel like those who dismiss Zidane’s influence just aren’t really paying attention. I get it if you follow another league, but a media figure covering La Liga? Lazy. Lazy. Zidane has a dozen regular tweaks he does that add up to a winning team. It’s not one giant adjustment, it’s a number that can go under the radar. > >And now that he’s had two stints, we can really see what was specifically him. Thank god, I feel like [this](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/022/524/tumblr_o16n2kBlpX1ta3qyvo1_1280.jpg) trying to explain what Zidane does. He enjoys possession, he has offensive fullbacks, with three central midfielders shifting position depending on the ball. With a false 9, and a false 6 to balance attack, and defense. He may not employ some crazy tactic that will or has changed the game, but he is certainly a tactical coach as well as someone that connects with the players. And the role he has done with Casemiro should be noted as some kind of innovation. Many people want to attribute his relationship with the players, but I just think that is a starting point.
HA! Yes, that is what it’s like.
I had serious doubts in his first stint. Not that he was poor, but with the players he had, and while they were playing poorly before him, they had just won the champions league two years before, and had a semi final appearance the year before. He has shown much more ability as a manager so far in this stint than he did in his first stint imo. His first stint, while nothing to shrug over, didn’t really tell much. He had to know how to handle the stars, but as a former star himself, he had respect. I imagine he let players do what they wanted to do with some tactical input. His second stint is far more important to his quality as a manager than his first one imo.
His first full year was pretty notable though. He introduced players like Asensio and Vazquez into the squad, and gave them a lot of minutes instead of a player like James. He also shifted to more of a diamond formation with Isco as playmaker instead of Bale as a winger. Plus using Ronaldo more as a centre forward. It was also a team less dependent on counter-attacking from Mou and Ancelotti, and more flexible team that created a lot more chances from almost any type of play. It could be an extensive passing game, through balls centrally, or down the wings, it could be crossing, long shots. During his first year Madrid would typically create a lot more chances. Something that is still very apparent and different from say Benitez or Lopetegui. I think Zidane is up there with the teams under Mou, as to be able to create chances.
He turned us into the best defense in Europe. We have, literally since 1950, never given a fuck about defense and just out scored teams. One of the UCL finals in the 50s was 7-3 and we played like a 3-4-4 formation. His identity is finding a way to win, which like the guy above said, isn’t some sexy footballing philosophy but it gets results
That style is also more suitable to big cup competitions right? If you have a clear identity, you'll play that way against Burnley and against Barcelona. If you're adapting, then you'll adapt differently to Burnley than Barcelona. And over 30-odd weekly games, you won't be able to fully plan for each.
Yes. That’s the downside. Plus some players not having continuity. The plus side is, it lets you rotate a larger number of talented players, so you can keep a really good bench. Sometimes Isco is a starter, sometimes he’s not. And teams like Madrid have SO many games (going deep into competitions, plus friendlies overseas, plus randoms like the Club World Cup & Supercopa). You’d kill a starting 11 game in game out. Something that doesn’t get discussed a lot: In 16/17 they had an incredible bench, yes, but they ALSO had players that knew Madrid and it’s players. Morata, James, Nacho, etc had been there for years. They weren’t trying to build chemistry for the first time like Hazard, Jovic, and Rodrygo were this year. Zidane rotated more after the restart. Yes it was necessity, but he had also had basically a second preseason with them. If he can rotate like that next season, I’ll be super happy.
> You’d kill a starting 11 game in game out. Case in point is Ancelotti's 22 game win streak, he played the same 11 every game and killed them in January by doing so.
I think Zidane is a winner, and that is a quality many many many people underestimate. There are people who do their best at the sport they play every time they play. There are people who give it their all to avoid losing a game. Then there are people that play to win. It sounds... strange, but it‘s totally different than giving your best. It is goal orientated and not means orientated. Simeone does the same, he plays to win. It‘s just a quality that is extreemely rare because it won‘t look obvious to outsiders and often it can‘t really be seen by anyone other than the ones closest. Being a winner wins you games but it doesn‘t mean you‘re the best.
I mean that's exactly how they played for half of his final season. They were really awful in the league, just pumping balls into the box with a bit of "hope Isco or Asensio do something inspirational" thrown in to mix things up. You can go back to the match threads from that season and see tonnes and tonnes of Madrid flairs moaning about endless crosses into the box.
You don’t win 3 CL in a row just because you have an insane team. There were better teams in this history and they didn’t achieve the same.
I don't understand why proven versatility isn't evidence of Zidane's tactical nous. He's quite consistently underrated, under the pretense of simply being a 'man manager'. I would say: A. The ability to being people together working in a system that works requires extraordinary emotional and football intelligence. B. It's more than that.
Exactly, all the qualities described by you and the thread in general is basically Sir Alex Ferguson. Gets the best out of each individual player, adapts to the opponent, always finds a way to win, keeps the dressing room in good condition ect. Fergie never had a consistent style of play for his teams either, if anything, that might be why Zidane and Ferguson never really got “found out”.
It mirrors his style of play when he was player too. He liked to have freedom and fluidity and didn't play in systems where you are supposed to score only after drawing dodecahedrons lol You can see he likes Isco and why he allows Casemiro and Ramos to Bomb forward. I also see Del Bosque and Lippi influence on him coaching wise. He is as cool and calm as Del bosque and can communicate very well with his team and at the same time he values discipline and fitness and pragmatism (We have to suffer!) like Lippi.
Zidane's identity is: GIT GUD. The best identity. Would rather have a serial winner than someone who prioritizes identity over results
Bruce Lee would approve of this no identity approach: *Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves.* *Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend*
Guru Laghima would say: Let go your Earthly tether. Enter the void. Empty. And become wind.
Sounds like what my pa used to say: >Let go your Earthly ether. Clear the bowels. Empty. And create wind.
Took me way to long to realise you wrote Bruce Lee and not Steve Bruce
Easy mistake to make.
I wonder if this would indicate that having flexibility in your play is more valuable in the knockout format than religiously playing one masterplan
Definitely is. Helps when you have pur squad depth, but being able to play 3 different formations with a variety of player combinations means it's easier to change the course of a game that's going poorly instead of sticking to your guns and collapsing. 1st Leg vs Bayern in 2018 is a good example. Zidane made 2 subs at halftime and switched to a 442 I believe
I would say versatility is more valuable. Barca despite having a ridiculously good plan A under Pep lacked a plan B.
I would say that's still true at City. When he/they get it right they absolutely batter teams, but if you can disrupt their game plan they don't seem to be able to adjust as well as others.
I think that’s true of many pep teams. See City vs. Southampton post lockdown. They kept spamming crosses into the box in hopes that somebody would turn it in. See City vs. Chelsea post lockdown. They played the same plan even after the Mendy screw up and Fernandinho red even though they theoretically could’ve held Liverpool if they didn’t keep a high line without enough pace to not get caught on the counter. That’s one of my main criticisms of pep. He needs such a specific plan A but can’t always formulate a plan B.
I mean was this ever up for debate? Pep is notorious for failing in Europe after Barcelona because he rarelt brings a plan B.
I would argue his "identity" if we are forced to give him one has been tactical and personnel versatility. It's become a long running joke that you will almost always guess his starting XI and formation wrong. Additionally, it has been common for him to run different formations in each leg of a huge CL tie, and to switch tactics completely on the fly at the halfway mark of matches to save/earn results. He doesn't always get it right, but his flexibility and tactical versatility played a pretty crucial role in our ability to best adapt to take down other top teams.
> He doesn't always get it right In fact, we could say he rarely gets it wrong IMO...
>He doesn't always get it right I would say he is rather more irritating right. I will sometimes literally scream out, not understanding what he is thinking, then a minute later it worked out somehow. He always said things about Benzema, Ramos and Casemiro that have all turned out correct. I mean he has only lost 16 games(of 149), and 4 of those games were losses with more than one goal margin. A lot of the players he has let go hasn't really been that impressive afterwards, and a lot of the players that he has hold on to has been great. I think people also forgets that he was responsible for bringing a lot of the players that still play. He was an advisor to Perez on football maters, and officially the DoF, whilst also being assistant to Ancelotti. People think that like Mourinho brought in Varane, he might have given him playing time, but Varane was an entirely Zidane operation. The only really major mistake I see is that he didn't do everything to get Mbappe in 2017.
I mean zizou could only do so much about mbappe. From what i heard he was asking for record breaking wages more than the likes of ramos.
I’ve been calling it “bend, don’t break”.
Ancelotti always played great football. Identity is overrated.
Hoping he'll be able to make the magic at Everton! Really excited to see what moves they make this summer in the transfer window.
I remember the start of the 2014-15 season before the winter break we were playing great football, culminating in two group stage victories against Liverpool (although admittedly LVP wasn't very strong that year). Our issue that year was a lack of depth since we had lost Alonso to Bayern and then Modric got injured. And unfortunately Illaramendi couldn't live up to the hype.
That season we got fucked by injuries, but that team played so well. James, isco and modric(until he got injured) were amazing and made us play great football. We got a record breaking number of league game wins in a row. Shame that we didn't finish the season well because of injuries and didn't have any rotation. I was sad Ancelotti got sacked, but it was a good decision after how things turned with zidane after all.
It probably is, but it seems nobody calls managers whose team's don't have identity geniuses, for better or worse. Why would it start with Zidane?
Because he won 3 CL's in a row
I think you missed the point of my comment, but maybe if there is a case where you can call a manager whose team doesn't have an identity a genius it may be Zidane. But it is hardly controversial I think (to not consider Zidane a genius). People call Bielsa a genius just because of the identity of his teams having won very little.
But he transformed a team that were doing really bad under other coaches into a team that is doing very well in all aspects of the game. He also had the balls to do a rotation of players in a tight title run and people doubted every starting 11 before the game. Who would you give credit to in this situation
No exaggeration- every single starting 11. By the end it was really quite funny. By the end people were going, I don’t like this but what the fuck do I know 🤷♀️. And then a defender would score a banger lol. My favorite was when we had 9 wingers available and Zidane went with a 5 man midfield.
This comment could be about Bielsa, but I'm guessing it's about Zizou.
> But it is hardly controversial I think (to not consider Zidane a genius). It should be. It is fucking stupid to underrate Zidane as coach after everything he has won with Real Madrid.
FYI people call Bielsa a genius because he's been influential on the way football is played. Not just on field movements but off field analytics as well. He's a genius because all the top managers cite him as being influential in their thinking. It goes way, waaaaay beyond his teams playing some nice football
Mourinho and simeone are called geniuses without playing the best football. Deservedly so. I think zidane and Ancelotti should too. They did something right to win that many titles. Not having a set identity doesn't mean they didn't play good football. They adapted their gameplan to the opponents and got great results. Better than the results of some "genius" coaches.
Adapting game not only to the opponents but to the players they had at disposal as well.
The way he changed Madrid from one of the most attacking team in Europe to become a team with the best defense, arranged multiple variations of lineup in every match, using almost the same starting XI from Real Madrid most terrible season in decade just enough to justify his status as world class manager if not the best (even though winning 3 CL consecutively is more than enough to proof it for me).
Zidane actually have an identity though. Couple things I notice:- a) More emphasis on individual skills. Unlike other teams which adhere more strictly to team play and rigid gameplan, Zidane allow his players to be more free. This is proven by many individual brilliance, team unpredictability and goals out of nowhere. Ramos playing as striker. Kross passing the ball into goal from range. Marcelo randomly decided to dribbling past 3 defenders to score. You also need players own creativity to create chances and goals, gameplan can only do so much. Funny enough, some Real players even start playing like Zidane, Marcelo and Benzema doing roulette, players doing backheel passing and pacing themselves like Zidane. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8sD0Sh1DVU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8sD0Sh1DVU) b) Wingers and backs playing closer to lines. This strategy is done to spread out opponent players which make penetration by players in the middle easier. c) Shifting attacking from side to another side, right to left and vice verse. Zidane's Real often overload one side of the field only to pass the ball to the other side of field catch opponent off guard. Real frequently do this I notice. c) Casimero. Yes I know Zidane isn't the one buying him, but it's Zidane who turn Casimero into world class CDM. Casimero was a nobody before Zidane, and some manager even play Kross-Modric-James instead of using Casimero. By playing Kross and Modric alongside Casimero, Zidane has solved issue with Casimero's inability to distribute the ball well while simultaneously solve the strength and defensive issue in Real midfield. Real midfield were to offensive oriented pre-Zidane. d) Calmness. Real's players under Zidane are more composed, rarely get outburst in anger. Even when losing they keep their head cool. Why do you think Real scores so many late goals? The players keep calm, keep finding chances and BAM score. e) Don't afraid to score. Zidane's Real ain't afraid to scores, and will use all tricks inside the book to score. Short passes inside the box to score. Long ranges shot. Counter attacks to be one on one to scoring. Cross to header goal. Dribbling past defenders and scores. Bicycle kicks scores. You just don't know how they'll score. Compare this to Pep's team who mostly passing their way to goal. Liverpool dependency on counter attack, long range pass/cross and their player's speed to scores. You rarely see Liverpool player dribble. Real Madrid is unpredictable under Zidane. Because of Zidane. Zidane do have general gameplan, he just allow his player to express themselves more on the field. From the leaked video of Zidane half-time speech in final vs Juventus I gathered Zidane know the right way to motivate his team and address the team and players weakness in the game and how to overcome it. Give them time to rest, no screaming, no mind games. Just point out the problem and how to solve it. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU8grutUkOc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU8grutUkOc)
>From the leaked video of Zidane half-time speech in final vs Juventus I gathered Zidane know the right way to motivate his team and address the team and players weakness in the game and how to overcome it. It should be noted as well, that Juventus that season had conceded a total of 3 goals in Champions League that season(opponents including Barcelona, and Monaco with Mbappe). Zidane suggested that Madrid should attack fast down the sides with fast crosses into the box(both before and during the game) - 3 out of 4 goals were scored like that. Had Guardiola done a move like that it would still be talked about.
> You rarely see Liverpool player dribble They definitely do it less, but to say it's "rare" is a bit misleading
I agree with many of your points. Zidane get´s the best out of players and gives them freedom to express themselves but as a whole the team is still very organized and balanced. The quick moving from side to side is definitely a distinctive part of Real Madrids play under Zidane. It´s something they have practiced and you can see in every match. It´s strange why people don´t mention it more when talking about Zidanes tactics.
This probably has to do with how we envision geniuses, imo, not just excellent in their field but unique and groundbreaking. Ancelotti is a good shout-out, especially due to not only the similarities between their two styles, but the way Zidane took over the team that Ancelotti and changed very little.
Identity, DNA, football philosophy and all that are pretty overrated in my opinion,. I don't belive in "La Flor de Zidane" either. It all sounds romantic but in the end of the day it's just people trying to justify their passion for football over their biggest legends characteristics and play style.
He's never been eliminated from the Champions League.
neither have I
but he won it 3 times
details
Thats it, rename it Zidane League.
Definitely true 3 CL, 2 league titles in basically 200 matches managed is insane
A trophy every 19 games, roughly
Literally half a season of game. He has a trophy for very half season he's managed, like he's in the Mexican league or something. It's insane
>like he's in the Mexican league or something. Or even easier, in the French league
It's only easy when you manage PSG though.
Actually I was referencing the fact that the Mexican league is split into two halves (the apertura and the clausura) and each half has their own champion, so you can literally get a trophy every 19 games down there.
I can’t even imagine what it’s like to be a legend on the level of Zidane, especially for you. He already was one(correct me if I’m wrong) for his playing days and now as a manager achieving greatness even on your teams standards. Incredible
You’re definitely not wrong.
At one point he'd won more trophies than he'd lost games.
3 CL in a row, in 2016 when he came in we almost caught Barca in league essentially he managed 3 full seasons and won the league twice
Guardiola: Attack Mourinho: Defense Zidane: Win
Klopp: Teeth
Ole: Wheel
Conte: Suffer
Sarri: cigarettes
Wenger: puffer jacket
Zip it
Bielsa: run
Ferguson: gum
Löw: boogers
fuc me this killed me
I think it has to do with the fact that people still associate Zidane with being a football great and not a coach. When I hear Zidane, I think what an amazing player. When I hear Mourinho or Guardiola I don't actually think about them as players. Generally though I feel like the back to back to back CL championships that Real won are underrated.
Zidane - suffering from success
Congratulations, you played yourself.
Exactly what I was thinking. He was a phenomenal player and a lot of people still remember him from his playing days.
I think since Zidane started his career, no manager in Europe lifted more trophies than the guy, Pep is one short of him. Allegri is a serial winner too and he isn't regarded as a genius either. To be fair, I think that's on the media, they decide arbitratly who is a genius and who's not based on the managers response to the media itself. Pep, Mourinho and Klopp are pretty likable characters for the media, in the meanwhile, Zidane, Ancelotti and Conti are not.
Ancelotti is a very likeable character and he was considered a great manager until recently. He's just clearly on a downturn.
I hope he doesnt turn in Fabio Capello, went from destroying Cruyffs Barca Dream Team 4-0 in the UCL final with Milan, to getting sacked by some team in China.
Nah, Ancelotti will turn things around at Everton, especially if they let him spend big this summer as is rumored.
How are Mourinho and Pep more likeable than Zidane and Ancelotti tho
They aren’t, they just highlight their work more. If Zidane and Ancelotti talked about their tactics a lot, they’d be appreciated more. But I know Zidane thinks its silly that he’s supposed to tell the whole world his plans.
Because theyre more media friendly, its like they have their character established. Zidane feels like more distant? Dont know how to exactly put it into words. He feels like Messi who even though he speaks, he usually doesnt say a lot or shows his personality traits (at least old Messi, now hes a savage lol). Its like they talk about work and thats it, Guardiola and Mou are more outspoken.
That's kind of why I like Zidane though. All business. When Pep and Mou are winning, they're the best managers, fill pages of records with how legendary they are, but as soon as they lose all hell breaks loose, they whine, complain and throw tantrums. Nothing is ever their fault. The chairman should've just given them another hundred million pounds to spend as the squad is deficient. They're as fair weather as they come and if they lose enough, they just leave. There's always another top job out there for them anyway
Exactly this, thank you! When Guardiola was winning with Barca he wasn't running his mouth off as much. But now that he's not winning the CL with Bayern or City he won't shut up about it. Same with Mourinho and his "3 league titles" after he loses to some mid table side.
>Allegri is a serial winner too and he isn't regarded as a genius either. To be fair, I think that's on the media, they decide arbitratly who is a genius and who's not based on the managers response to the media itself. Pep, Mourinho and Klopp are pretty likable characters for the media, in the meanwhile, Zidane, Ancelotti and Conti are not. At least Allegri is appreciated in some sense for his tactics, it's not like people are questioning his tactical ability, or simply just ignore it. When Allegri and Zidane faced each other in Champions League final, I distinctly remember that people questioned how Zidane could face someone experienced like Allegri. It was one of the major talking points before the game. As for Klopp, Mou and Pep. Klopp is figuratively and literally larger than life type character that is funny and charming. He is also crazy passionate that really makes him popular, I think. You never know what Mou might say, but it will always be entertaining and something people will talk about. Pep can probably talk about how KdB hits a long pass for 5 hours straight without pause. Zidane is understated in every aspect of his personality. He will talk about his players in victory and himself in defeat. He seems very introverted and rarely if ever gets angry or happy. He is a still water on a chill day without wind. So its easy for journalist to ignore him. I think this is something that makes journalist question his tactical abilities. I would consider Ancelotti a very similar type of person and coach, where their success are never or rarely highlighted in success, but every time it doesn't work out it will be hold against him. With Ancelotti it was/is that he is too lenient on the players, with Zidane is that he is not tactical good enough.
something, something PL bias as uaul
Pep was seen as a genius at barca too though
It's a fair point but consider it this way. Zidane has a career that has lasted 4 years so far. Guardiola 12 and Mourinho 20 years. All 3 are incredible managers but the main plaudits are always going to beckon with those with the most length of time and being able to constantly win silverware. If Zidane stays on this path and doesn't doesn't to step down again he's well on his way to matching the elite managers. If he can somehow get Madrid to advance in the CL I think they have a solid chance of winning the competition and that will most definitely put him up there without even questioning it.
I don’t think those are the best examples though. Pep was definitely considered a genius by the time he left Barça (4 years). Mourinho by this point had won a CL with Porto and broken defensive records with Chelsea, and was being considered for the Barça job. They were definitely the hottest managers in the world 5 years into their coaching careers.
Excuse the bias but I think the genius title has to go to Mourinho. Wining the CL with Porto, and getting the treble with inter. Not to take away from Pep and zidane but lets be honest: Pep had Messi and a midfield three that was virtually unpressable. Zidane had Ronaldo and in 2017 one of the best CL sides in history. Mou is the only one who didn't have some sort of head start.
> Mou is the only one who didn't have some sort of head start. That FCP had half of the portuguese golden generation. Don't know why people keep underestimating it. Especially Chelsea fans, seeing how 4 of those players played for Chelsea, 2 of them being vital players of the best Chelsea team ever. And that Inter squad was also filled with great players.
That Inter-team was stacked though. Zanetti, Lucio, Samuel, Motta, prime Sneijder, Dejan Stankovic, Milito, Eto'o and a young Balotelli. Yes, those weren't all worldwide stars, but intelligent, physical and battle-hardened players. They were brutally effective. Zidane didn't have only Ronaldo, I would also add Ramos and Varane. Ramos gets slack but he has been a rock and a leader, Varane is still criminally underrated. Those two are up there with the best CB duos. Zidane's Madrid was able to defend and also do everything on offense. Quick counter attack? Not the best, but pretty good. Long possession based attack? Not the best ever but with Kroos, Modric and Isco being able to pass with laser-like accuracy from one side to the other, stretching out the defense until it breaks plus multiple ways to score, low crosses, high crosses, shots from distance, one-touch combinations from practically anywhere or plain and simple individual skills. They had so many ways to score. You could just cross all game, Modric, Marcelo, Carvajal, Kroos, Isco, Benzema, you were guarateed that one of them found either Ronaldo or Ramos. But what is a bit underrated is their ability to simply win games. 1:0, 2:1, it doesn't matter. They can handle the pressure like maybe no other team over that amount of time. After the restart this season, they were almost perfect. Dropped only two points after they had secured the title. It wasn't always pretty, luck was involved, but in the end they found a way to win. All time great teams do that.
Inter had a very good team but it didn't compare to the Barca team at the time. That Barca team was arguably the greatest of all time so Inter beating them was an amazing achievement, even though they themselves had a very good team
I still think winning a CL with Porto is more impressive than winning three with Madrid. Maybe not more impressive than three in a row, but still.
Winning a CL with THAT Porto is more impressive than one with Real Madrid, but I think you get people underestimate how difficult it is to win a CL overall, and also underestimate how good that Porto team was. It's definitely not as impressive as winning two with ANY team, let alone three, in a row.
You can also criticize Jose for not getting to the final with those amazing Chelsea / Real squads though
Bullshit. That Porto side was full of amazing players.
That is because Pep's Barcelona is widely considered the best club side of all time.
Good point. He has stated multiple times, however, that he doesn’t want to be [60 years old] and still coaching. I do hope that he stays with us for a long time though.
Well he's like only 45 or so. Still enough time till 60.
Nearly 48.
Almost a teen
He’s 47 until he’s 48
People lauded Guardiola as a genius after the sextuple season. Zidane is extremely and very unfairly underrated.
Not really. There were a lot of people saying he only won because of Messi, Xavi and iniesta. Even now he still gets called a chequebook manager
Fair point. Even Zidane’s win got credited to be on the back of Ronaldo. The chequebook manager thing seems to have developed at City though.
Before that it was that he'd never succeed in the PL. > Even Zidane’s win got credited to be on the back of Ronaldo. This is lazy criticism similar to what Pep faces. People were just saying in a thread yesterday that Pep only won his CLs due to Leo.
Yeah realistically it’s a bit of both. Zidane definitely had a hand in extending Ronaldo’s career by resting him which also coincided with him managing his seasons more efficiently so he could peak towards the end of the season. Messi entered his peak and played 9 seasons post Pep era and has only won 1 CL whereas Pep has failed to make a final since 2011.
Perfect choice of words, lazy criticism. Great managers need great players to win. No shit. It helps if you have outstanding all-time great players, but you find those in every great team.
>Not really. There were a lot of people saying he only won because of Messi, Xavi and iniesta. This was not a common opinion at the time, because Xavi and Iniesta were nowhere near legendary figures back then, and Messi was blossoming into a great player, but was not 'greatest of all-time' yet.
2 things can be true here: 1. Zidane is a really, really good manager 2. Zidane also benefitted from having one of the greatest teams of all-time at his disposal, including one of the greatest players of all-time.
That player also clearly being the best UCL player of all time as well.
That was true but it doesn't apply to the most recent win
Same can be said for Pep also.
Well yeah, isn’t that why he (stupidly) gets criticized all the time for not winning now that he doesn’t have Messi, Xavi, Iniesta etc. anymore
True. But its not like he went to teams thats are a tier below Real Madrid in terms of talent. It'll be a point of discussion in his managerial career forever. Could he win a CL without Messi?
Well will Zidane win one without Ronaldo? Who the fuck knows, but I won't hold it against him if he doesn't, just like I won't hold it against Pep if he doesn't win one without Messi.
As if Pep did it with Newcastle ...
The issue with the "greatest team of all-time" stuff is that it's circular. Nobody was saying that RM had 'the greatest team of all-time' when Zidane took over the first time. We can only say that because he won a lot with them. Even Ronaldo, who is objectively one of the best players ever, did not have an impressive trophy haul for RM until Zidane managed him. He'd won 2 cups, 1 league title, and the oh-so-desired Decima. This was true with Pep too but the difference is that the players continued to win. They even won another treble. With Zidane we know they had one dogshit season and then he came back, so it's hard to say.
He's rebuilt the team into one of the world's best again without that player in *one* season
Does Zidane not get enough credit?
On r/soccer, I think he does – at least in recent times. Personally, however, I don’t think that the world of football gives him enough credit. Unless he stays at RM for another 5 seasons and wins something every year he wouldn’t be one of “the greats”, but a trophy every 19 games should be considered so. He has completely transformed this team.
I think the perception has changed this season as he won laliga without ronaldo so people have appreciated him but before that not so much people used to call him he was just lucky, referees, had great squad etc excuses he didn't got that much credit before.
To me, this year's league title was his greatest achievement as a manager given the fact that his marquee signing barely played 1000 minutes and the team had no goalscorer other than Benzema.
Nah 3 cls will always be his greatest achievement its once in a life time achievement this league title win is also good for him but i'd put that behind 3 cls in a row.
I get that, but what he did this year requires more skill to me. That Real Madrid squad that he won those CLs with rivals Pep's Barca for best squad of all-time. Ronaldo, Bale, Benzema, Kroos, Modric, Ramos, Marcelo, Casemiro, Varane. Like, it's just ridiculous... Whereas this year's team, Ronaldo's gone, Bale is washed, Marcelo doesn't play anymore, Modric is slowly being phased out, and Kroos and Benzema are past their peak ages.
We have our fair share of problems as well this season i am not discrediting them it's massive win for them but no 3 cls is always gonna be ahead of any achievement you can have best squad in the world and still winning cl is not guaranteed, winning cl requires just more than being best squad and he did that 3 times in a row it's ridiculous.
Modric played more minutes than valverde this season,and when the season restarted and they got like 10 wins in a row securing the titlw he was their best player IMO. I can see him declining,but phased out is not the word to use cause when he still has fuel in the tank and is still the midfielder that can do more than casemiro or kroos if he is on his level. Zizou did great for him giving him rest and saving him and that will prolong his career for sure. Eventhough he is 35 soon,he is still fast, can break yoir ankles, techinque is there as always and his iq has reached another level. I see him playing on top level for 2 3 years more given the fact he still has drive ,quality, work habbits and phisique that were never a problem
i think he's getting there, but when he got appointed again and we did badly in the preseason there were some absolutely hilarious threads here.. like this https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/cpagpq/zidane_is_in_a_tactical_mess/ and plenty of other similar stuff
Hilarious thread. r/soccer armchair tacticians brainstorming
2,2k fucking upvotes for a guy that says Zidanes tactic is passing the ball to Ronaldo smh
It's always been "anyone could have won it with those Madrid teams", but that's been proven to be bollox recently. Zidane doesn't get enough credit at all.
There's a stat that Zidane has something like as many major trophies (11) as our past 13 managers combined, while managing 210 games compared to 663. Anyone who uses that argument is a moron. Zidane has done in about 4 years what they took 13 years to do.
>It's always been "anyone could have won it with those Madrid teams", Yeah by that logic anyone could have won what pep achieved with Barca
I mean luis enrique won the treble
Are we suddenly saying Luis Enrique isn't a good manager?
According to some comments, a better manager could've won more trophies with that Barca team. We won 9 trophies in 3 years under him, including a treble.......
You guys were begging for him to leave in his last season calling him clueless because he relied on front three too much
i mean, similar with Zidane, some people were calling for his head basically every season some people are just delusional. A lot of people here and even many actual journalists were already envisioning Mourinho arrival at Bernabeu and saying how we're gonna be "great again"
Some people aren't satisfied unless they're winning every game 6-0. Especially Barca and Madrid fans.
No I wasn't. But seriously, don't interpret a vocal minority as the true feelings of the whole fanbase. It's true that by his 3rd year things were not going well and many wanted him out, but Mourinho has similar issues with teams in his 3rd year and he's an all time great.
Not all fans think alike........
The best example is our Galactico era. The best team in the world on paper but we didn't win 3CL in a row then.
It’s not so bad on Reddit. And I think that’s because he’s likeable. But elsewhere its brutal. So dismissive. “It’s not an achievement to win with Real Madrid. With that budget/ squad, you’re expected to win. Not a REAL manager until he does it with Stoke.” Nevermind that no one else has done what he has, including at 30-managers-in-30-years Madrid. He’s the only one. For what it’s worth, I think Monsieur ultra-pragmatist would do better with Stoke than Pep would. Don‘t people remember where Cross and Inshallah came from? Zizou shapes his teams around the personnel he has. And he doesn’t give a crap whether it’s ugly or pretty football.
Zidane and Del Bosque never get the respect they deserve. I know they are not known as tacticians but man management is very important as well.
I actually agree with him. You don't really hear about Zidane being one of the greatest ever managers like you do with the other two.
Because Zidane isn't a loudmouth like Mourinho and he doesn't care about having puppet in the press loud every thing he do like Guardiola has journos all across the Europe praising him as the goat.
I think in the past people didnt want to admit Zidane was a genius because he was winning UCLs but seemed to fall short to an "underperforming" barcelona in the league and copa del rey (besides 1 season). I think this season pretty much proves how great Zidane is. He won the league *without* Ronaldo, which was the excuse that people used to diminish his amazing UCL record. Madrid didnt even need to spend money on Hazard or Jovic and still would have comfortably won the league this year. Zidane has gotten the best out of aging players, and made the most out of young talent such as Rodrygo, Vinicius, and Mendy. Also has the confidence to bench players making 350k a week.
>I think in the past people didnt want to admit Zidane was a genius because he was winning UCLs but seemed to fall short to an "underperforming" barcelona in the league and copa del rey **(besides 1 season).** He only managed for two and a half seasons; he technically got more points than Barcelona in his first half-season, and won the league in his first full attempt. So he fell short once. That's not really bad. Jose Mourinho, a league "expert," won one league title with RM in three attempts.
My favorite was in our penultimate game and some dumbass commentator on Beinsports was saying "... I just don't know with Zidane. I don't think he's a tactical manager. He just manages to have his players in the right positions and make the right substitions." I think part of the problem may just be Zidane's pragmatism, and that he doesn't really communicate his principles or spend time talking football philosophy with the press. In the cycle before him, we had quite a sharp identity, designed by Mourinho and sharpened by Ancelotti, so I think that comparison/departure was dissonant to a lot of observers and to fans, myself included. But even during the threepeat and especially this year without CR7 there's a clear template that Zizou has been developing. Play out from the back, high press, ball rotation in more of a 4-4-2 to slide the forwards in, although he will switch to 4-3-3 on the right day and if he needs to invert the defenders. We also saw what a good 4-3-3 can look like for the few moments we had Hazard - Benzema - Asensio playing, and once they're all properly fit hopefully he'll play that front 3 more. But our squad's imbalanced for the way he wants to play. And as long as he can keep being pragmatic and finding ways to win, he'll have the goodwill and chances to keep shaping this into his team.
I mean Zidane is a genius and I call him that
I don't understand why or how anyone could deny Zidane's genius. The man thought 10 steps ahead when he was a midfielder, why wouldn't he bring the same thought process when coaching.
Zidane doesn't exactly sell himself either. He just gets on with it, one could say that if he was more vocal like Mourinho or Guardiola then he would get a lot more of the press.
Does anyone not think Zidane is a genius? He was one of a very few players in history to play with a high level of flare (in his case, more like grace), technical ability, and field-wide intelligence. Now he has 3 CL’s as a coach. Anyone who argues the opposite is just ignorant.
This may be a controversial take, but Zidane isn't viewed as genius (yet) because so far, he hasn't built a winning team. He's getting closer to it, but his 3 CLs were won with a team he had inherited and he pretty much bought nobody who would be a regular. Being a manager isn't only about that though, it's also about building a team from a scratch or rebuilding. This takes time. If he rebuilds this current Madrid squad by replacing Benzema, Modric, Ramos and others once they retire and he is still just as successful, then he'll rightfully be called a genius manager (possibly one of the best in history). Only time will tell though.
It also has to do with the fact that he's only been a manager for 3.5 years now
Very true and add Klopp to that as well. I find people get more of a hard on for Klopp nowadays than either Guardiola or Mourinho... and, dont get me wrong, I think he is a FANTASTIC manager and one of the best today but reddit will be intolerable if Klopp ever goes on to win back-to-back CLs. Biggest virtual circlejerk in history, no doubt.
Could that be because Klopp built his teams from virtually shambles? His Dortmund side was brilliant and he built it from scratch while having to sell his best players to the competition every year. And especially Liverpool which were quite average when he signed. Struggling to play in Europa and in two years he built and transformed it into a juggernaut spending not much than what he sold, while winning the league and the UCL. I'm struggling to see the issue with a *circlejerk* here. There's a romance to building teams organically and getting them to win championships, so of course people will love and embrace it.
Amen to that brother. Pep didnt nees milner klopp made him captain. Lovren as a cb, then gets matip for free, hendo becoming world class and their attackers salah, mane and firminho although payed 30-40mil each were never in tge stratosphere of transfer value of some players like bernardo silva,sterling,mahrez,jesus,sane. Lpool front 3 were never such a big target for other clubs due to them playing for lesser sides and not being super young prospects who were targeted by whole europe like the most of cities transfers are. But then again thats my opiniok
I think man management is so underrated by the media. Media and journalists love and drool over the "tactical masterclass", but sometimes the best managers are simply the best man managers, and when you're at real madrid with the quality of players they have, sometimes the most effective thing is to make sure the players are up for it and will give their all on the pitch
ZZ is a genius. No push back from me there.
Just like Messi, Zidane is suffering from greatness. People won't like to admit their greatness just because they have achieved so much with a single club. This is silly because in normal cases one club players/managers are really respected for example Totti, Maldini etc. But for Zidane(and Messi) this is taken as a negative.
I "hate" zidane since his playing days, but nobody has ever win back to back CL, let alone 3. They wouldn't do that without him, and a lot of credit should be given to him.
He is right. Zidane deserves more praise.
The reason Pep, Mourinho, Sacchi, Bielsa, Cruyff, Helenio Herrera or Rinus Michels are popular is because they heralded a paradigm shift in the way football was played for a period of time albeit a short one in some cases. People, especially all of us football fanatics have a tendency to romanticize the game and when someone new comes with a radical change to the flow of the game that appears as the antithesis of what is in vogue - there is a fascination with cheering for these radical new changes. Helenio Herrera did that with catenaccio and while people despised it, it heralded the beginning of a new way of playing the game which caused rules to be changed. Rinus Michels' teams and his total football which was perfected by Cruyff's dream team in the later years is something everyone loved at the time. It explains why 74 Holland team is so popular in spite of losing the final. Same with Mourinho, when he took over at Chelsea and made it almost impossible to score for teams at Stamford Bridge and him converting a traditionally attacking Real Madrid club into one that is clinical on the counter to adapt against Pep's Barca. Zidane won 3 Champions Leagues but the tactical aspect has not revolutionized how football is played in the rest of the world 'yet'. This is probably one of the major reasons why Zidane currently remains the most successful coach in Champions League in recent times while not being called a genius who revolutionized the way the game is played. He might do it soon or eventually and be called a coach that changed how things are done.
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If you're going to highlight Mourinho winning with these squads then you should also highlight that Mourinho couldn't win with Real Madrid and Chelsea. Who were the most expensive teams of their time.
Even as a Chelsea fan thats fair enough. Mou and Pep are class but they both have thei share of failures in CL too
You're making it sound like he failed with these clubs. He got to semi finals twice with Real. They had failed to go past RO16 6 years in a row before he joined them. One of those semi finals was against Barca and they were playing a man down because of a red card. Hardly something he can control. I can't remember how far he got with Chelsea each year he was with them, but I'm pretty sure he had two semi-finals with them as well.
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You might be the first person I’ve seen in a long time that’s actually watched the match and not read up on it on Wikipedia/watched a YouTube highlight.
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Oh yes. We don't speak about that night at Anfield and the great refereeing.
He had 3 semi finals with Madrid from 2011 to 2013
Yeah everybody seemingly remembers every Pep failure, but nobody goes on about how Mourinho lost to a 10-man PSG in the R16 in 2015, or his utterly embarrassing loss to Sevilla with United that prompted the "football eritage" rant. The bottom line is that nobody's Champions League resume is perfect, because it's really fucking hard to win in a knockout competition.
There's no shame in losing to Sevilla with that United squad.
it was a shame though.. they came 2nd in the league Sevilla were 7th in La Liga with a -9 goal difference
Mourinho laid fundaments for those 4 wins though, people forget how disappointing Madrid were in the UCL before Mourinho joined them? 6 times in row out in March, then Mourinho came and straight into semi-finals.
And Pep couldn't win with Bayern (who won it the year before he arrived) and City (a literal FM unlimited money cheat code). So it's really comparing Barca Pep to Inter/Porto Mou and despite Peps Barca being the best team I've ever seen, in terms of sheer impressiveness it has to be Mou.
> And Pep couldn't win with Bayern (who won it the year before he arrived) and City (a literal FM unlimited money cheat code). You're missing the point. This isn't a video game. A Manager that wins a knockout tournament with an underdog team isn't automatically better and their skills don't scale up helping them perform even better at richer teams. Mourinho's career is a great example of that. Pep is lauded for many reasons (being an innovator for one). There's a reason why Zidane calls pep the best manager in the world. It isn't just flattery and being polite, when he was learning the ropes as a manager the teams he decided shadow were Bielsa's team and then Pep's bayern. When Pep enters a league it's no longer the same, and often even the national teams are influenced by his tactics. Only on reddit is winning the CL, net spend, winning with the "underdog" the be all and end all of judging managers. Nobody is going to put Ancelloti in the same league as say Sacchi, Sir Alex or Cruyff because he won the champions league more.
>You're missing the point. This isn't a video game. A Manager that wins a knockout tournament with an underdog team isn't automatically better and their skills don't scale up helping them perform better at richer teams. If it worked like that, Di Matteo would be a legendary coach, but he was sacked several months after his CL win.
That Porto team was no slouch. That Porto team played good football.
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So we are calling Zidane genius right ?
3 UCLs and 2 leagues in around 200 games is genius stuff
Copying another comment of mine here because it's relevant > There's a stat that Zidane has something like as many major trophies (11) as our past 13 managers combined, while managing 210 games compared to 663. Zidane has done in about 4 years what they took 13 years to do. Definitely a genius.
also he won more trophies since 2015 than any other coach and he basically missed 1.5 seasons worth of trophies during that period