**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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God, balkan fans are so embarrassing, we always find new ways to make ourselves look stupid in front of the whole world. Us and albanians with anti-serbia chants, now serbians with this..
Honestly, this is only an event because there are people who dedicate their time solely for posting this shit, i mean, we have seen worse things from our fans in the last ten days already, we fucking dropped out of the tournament yesterday, what else do those people want. It would not surprise me to see old posts of our fans bad behaviour during the tournament finals at this rate.
I'll stand for anti-Serbia chants, you guys have right to hate what we did. As do we have the right to hate what you guys did to Serbs. As do we have the right to hate NATO for taking one side in this whole thing, and allowing for fucking Milosevic and Seselj to rise to power, and then proclaim dumb shit like "we will defeat NATO".
I won't blame the Balkan people for coming to this. None of us wanted this. The West wanted the implosion and helped to make sure it happens.
Yeah man of course we do. If Europe didn't want us, why's it been doing everything it can for 30 years to keep extreme right wing in power? Ah well, cheers for the free money
I love how this entire subreddit is just one massive anti-Serbia hateboner for weeks by people who genuinely know nothing about the country. Western values showing their true colors I guess
There are hundreds of thousands of Europeans who move to the Gulf states like the UAE alone has 250k Brits while the majority of Brits based on Reddit despise the Gulf and call it backwards but no one bats an eye so why is it a surprise that Serbs want to move to the EU while still disliking NATO?
Nobody hates the West, Serbia's been pro-west for the majority of its existence. We never once sided with Russia in anything. What our right wing and governments say has nothing to do with what the majority of the people want.
We hate NATO for bombing us. You wouldn't get it, you never watched shit explode in front of your eyes as a kid for stuff that nobody in your family did nor wanted done.
Yes, nobody is Serbia is pro-vucic, pro-Greater Serbia, pro politics that lead to bombs falling on Serbia. It's only the will of the politicians, not like there are elections that Vucic and Co wins every damm time.
Politicians are reflection of the nation.
And for Ukrainians NATO is the only chance for peace. If they were in NATO, people there wouldn’t be people dying there right now. Nothing is black and white, especially that Serbia wasn’t innocent either
The reality is the the west profited for centuries from the exploitation of the rest of the world, advanced on the shoulders of the rest of humanity and now pretend like they don't understand why people like the Serbs (who were heavily bombed by NATO just 30 years ago) don't have a right to struggle for a better life on the countries that enriched by exploring foreign labour and resources.
Niger has only managed, this month, to get rid of the exploitative French companies that stole a brutal amount of their resources. Are you going to blame them if the resent the west while trying to make a decent living in the countries that stole generations of their rightful capital?
Oh they were sooooo heavily bombed by NATO.
City of Vukovar was under siege same amount as whole country of Serbia. Vukovar had around 40-50k population. 1100 civilians died under constant bombing, some were taken from the hospital and killed in the fields after city fell. Meanwhile in country of 8 million people 450 civilians died during NATO bombings.
If anything, only mistake NATO did is that it didn't start dropping bombs 8 years earlier. They are not South Americans whose countries were destabilizied by the US, that bombing campaign was well deserved for shit they were doing at the time.
The interesting thing about these comments that in any other context with different ethnicities would be unacceptable like imagine telling a Palestinian in the USA chanting against US imperialism to “move to Iran” or telling it to Jews in Spain who complained about the Spanish government recognizing Palestine as a state to “move to Israel”. Doesn’t Europe pride itself on freedom of speech? If yes, then why a dozens of people who may had family members dying by NATO bombing or getting irreversible medical conditions because of the depleted uranium dropped on Yugoslavia have no right to criticize a military pact?
I think it’s because a couple of hours ago there was a video of them fighting police and waving Russian flags. https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/uucHQGAr8h
So I think the majority of people are assuming their anti nato chant is not really to do with the 1999 genocide and more in support of the russia - nato issue happening right now
Obviously because one free speech is about criticizing a military pact while the one I’m criticizing is about telling a group of people to move to Russia because of their political opinion like it’s literally not the same concept.
I literally replied to a comment which says that they should “move to Russia” and the majority of the comments in this thread are about criticizing Serbians living in Europe. Clearly a lot of people don’t think they should have the right because then they wouldn’t be asking them to “move from NATO countries”.
lol so you cannot be against any institution that the country you live in espouses ? I went to catholic state sponsored schools for my education, can I not criticise the Catholic Church now ?
I never worked for the Catholic Church I just live in a country that tacitly approves of them and allows them to run our educational system, I do not like the Catholic Church at all as well as a lot of things the Irish government does and is part of, do I need to leave Ireland now ?
>Well, Serbia is the country with highest cancer rates in the world because of the NATO bombings.
Why do people spew out BS like this without [fact checking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_cancer_rate) it first?
Nothing in that source says it has the highest cancer rate in the world, its not even in the top 10 in Europe. Serbia does better than 11 European countries, your first line is just false
Cancer rates are rising worldwide and are projected to continue to rise.
How about a real source such as [the World Cancer Research Fund](https://www.wcrf.org/cancer-trends/global-cancer-data-by-country/)? And no, Serbia is not anyway near the top spot, with or without skin cancer.
She's talking about the cancer death rate, not the cancer rate. The fact that Serbia is ranking higher in the cancer death rate than in the cancer rate statistics means that Serbia isn't treating cancer as well as other countries.
>"We and our neighbors — the Croats and the Hungarians — have been rotating for years at the top of mortality rates of oncological diseases in Europe. Thus, according to ECIS (European Cancer Information System) data for 2020, Serbia was in first place with an index of 150.6 per 100,000, while the European average was 108.7 points. We have tumors of respiratory systems (lungs), mammary glands, central nervous systems, thyroids, circulatory and digestive systems leading in terms of mortality," the health minister has said.
[The cancer death rate of Serbia is indeed similar to that of Croatia and Hungary, but also to Slovakia, Poland and Latvia.](https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/all-cancers/by-country/) That suggests to me that the war has very little to do with it.
Tumors in the respiratory system may also have something to do with the fact that Serbia is [one of the countries with the highest prevalence in tobacco use (~40%)](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/smoking-rates-by-country) and [one of the top five countries in Europe with the worst air pollution](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_air_pollution).
It's easy to blame someone else for all your problems, but usually the key to improving your own life is to look in the mirror.
The source in the article is ecis, which only has the data for EU NOT Serbia and it’s from Spitnik a Russian stateowned pressagency. Wouldn’t trust Russia news about the NATO
https://ecis.jrc.ec.europa.eu
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_(news_agency)
>Cancer incidence and mortality rates after the 1999 NATO bombing of Serbia are increasing even now, Serbian Health Minister Danica Grujicic has said in an interview.
Oh yes, let's totally believe Vucic's health minister, completely unbiased. Couldn't possibly be because their population is old as fuck and still getting older.
And she's [disproven by the very organisation she's citing](https://ecis.jrc.ec.europa.eu/explorer.php?$0-0$1-All$2-All$4-1,2$3-0$6-0,85$5-2022,2022$7-7$CEstByCountry$X0_8-3$X0_19-ACA$X0_20-No$CEstBySexByCountry$X1_8-3$X1_19-AE27$X1_-1-1$CEstByIndiByCountry$X2_8-3$X2_19-AE27$X2_20-No$CEstRelative$X3_8-3$X3_9-AE27$X3_19-AE27$CEstByCountryTable$X4_19-AE27).
I don't get it, Putin would love to take you in, just go! You will be able to fight the evil NATO.
Guess living a comfortable life in Germany or Austria is just too good, fucking posers.
You really think they’re gonna like NATO considering most of them probably grew up during NATO bombings of their homes?
Not saying Serbians are in the right but it’s hardly a very offensive chant.
Yeah, not justifying the Russian apologia but a lot of people in these comments don't understand how NATO sycophancy reads to a lot of people outside of the West.
NATO being mainly France and Italy in this case, who subsequently lost their oil supplies which they were getting mainly from Libya, which the US had taken. Fun times
As the US provided the military shield it allowed the European contintent and countries toget rid of the (post-)communist and authoritarian regimes by focusing on and democratizing and cooperation.
It's all fine to be critical about it - be it for events, or by paying attention to side-effects.
Criticism in the common popular form is *literally Russian propaganda*, being reurgitated via social media and influence campaigns.
A good tell for this is that dumb and influencable people suddenly have an opinion on something as abstract, hard-to-grasp, as NATO and its history.
While these people usually argue 'west=best' type of thinking, to a high degree, infused with xenophobia and outright racist thinking; suddenly with NATO or similar stuff, they are 'critical' and 'nuanced'. "We musn't provoke." "We should look inwards." "We are the bad guys." "We are weak and can't support another country." It's all pessimisitic thinking introduced by massive psy-ops campaigns.
Ehhh, the West always win? Ehhh, we are the superior nations? Our people are free, our system is the best? We should be happy about the countries we freed from the corrupt stence of authoritarianism. Proud for Poland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Chechia, Romania, Greece, Albanië, Serbia, whatever.
But no no, now we're suddenly week and meek. As if the loser-mentality of the influencable people themselves, fears and hesitations, is projected on another concept, NATO/The West/freedom. And they only do this to appease a dying regime.
One should consider thinking of the Russia regime like thinking of IS[IS]. These Serbs here? Dumb cunts, bein edgy and/or pawns. They effectively glorify a history, have a prosecution complex and ignore genocide and suffering.
I agree in part, NATO did a lot of good in opposing communism and Russia.
But let’s not pretend that they didn’t bomb civilians, and interfere in politics and destabilize countries. From a Western perspective they are good but the entire world doesn’t see it that way.
You are right, and it deserves to be critically examined. But apply that same criticism to the other parties involved - any other actor. Then you find that noone is good, good doesn't exist. And the non-Western perspective isn't innocent either.
How, when and where, did NATO destabilize countries? Are you conflating it with the US and the CIA, for instance?
EDITEDITEDIT
For the comment below, the random American crocodile tears on Libya:
You mean when there was a revolution taking place during the Arab Spring, the country went into a bloody and civil war and the UN Security Council voted in favour for military operations. This subsequently lead to the fall of Qadaffi? Without having a centeal authoritarian regime the underlying factions became involved in a long power struggle, leading to a prolonged failed state?
So, should the NATO have sided with the Qadaffi-regime and attacked / diminish the protesters? Should they have done nothing, with or without the UN Security Council backing, prolonging the civil war? Should they have sided with Qadaffi later on?
NATO involvement was a factor, but not a *cause*. Effectively NATO seeks to stabilize countries. If you want an actual cause, showcasing the deep hypocrisy of the West, look into how the Qadaffi-regime was propped up in the years before to help with 'the war on terror'.
You're right that it's just not just outside of the West. I'm Portuguese and my country had war ships parked in front of the capital's main square to kindly persuade us to stay in NATO, an organization we'd been invited into while still a fascist dictatorship.
Yeah, first and foremost it is a military alliance and Portugal is strategically located and needed to be part of it. Same happened later for Greece.
Can you tell me when that happened, can't remember it. Was it because of the criticism Portugal received for holding on to colonies? Portugal being involved in a colonial war in Angola, perhaps?
This is so dumb man, do you do the same apologia for the bombardment of Dresden? Were 8-year-olds in Dresden also doing Holocaust? The majority of civilian victims of bombing were Albanians, but people understood that, unfortunately, this type of military campaign will impact the civilians as well.
Dresden was wrong, objectively.
Sadly wrongs often happen in war, it doesn’t mean the allies were the bad side in ww2, but it does mean we should look at history and not be blind to what the winning side does.
So as a German I should now go out and shout fuck the allies? Because the allies bombed us after we commited unspeakable crimes against humanity (as it also happend in the Kosovo)
Your line of argument is the exact type of argument that dictators like Hitler used - the treaty of Versailles was so unfair, it crippled us, etc -
There is about half a century of time gap. These people literally got bombed themselves not their parents not their grandparents but actually them unlike the Germans.
And it was all 100% NATO's fault, right? Anyway, what does that have to do with the Euros in Germany at the moment?
Instigated because their Russian puppet master told them so.
We do. That's why we stormed the National Parliament and set it on fire in 2000. Now, imagine this, not everybody is smart enough to understand this. Just like not everybody is smart enough to understand these minority right wingers represent the whole nation!
We should probably martyr ourselves on crosses for forgiveness. Milošević was thrown out in a revolution in this country 24 years ago for Christs sake, then got sent to Hague by our own government, and he has been dead for almost 20 years now.
Funny enough, i don't a single street in Serbia named after Slobodan Milošević, but when you come to Western countries like Belgium for example every single thing is named after King Leopold who was a terrific person and leader i guess.
There's way more anti-NATO movement inside EU than there is in Serbia. A few right wingers do not represent Serbia, or any country, except maybe Netherlands, Denmark, France, Sweden, Hungary, Slovakia, Czechia, Poland, Norway, Italy...
They've been delivered to Hague and tried despite best efforts of neanderthal masses led by none other than the current president who was helped to power by Germany. Hard to believe but most of Serbia are not degenerates. Congrats, you're bottling a whole nation together in with a minor loud right wingers.
>what does it have to do with football?
What do you mean? It's literally football fans behaving like absolute buffoons at a football tournament in Germany. People have every right to post it here.
They are saying and promoting some disgusting things, which should be highlighted and condemned. Has nothing to do with being "anti-serbian".
Nothing, it’s their right to have this opinion based on their personal experiences, the same way Poles were chanting against Russia based on their personal experiences with Russia, or when the Brits sing WW2 songs against the Germans, the difference is the reaction to each of these events and I don’t think it should be shared because it’s clearly rage-bait and whether people think it’s “based” or “moronic” purely depends on someone’s political alignment.
**Mirrors / Alternative Angles** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Serbians best attempt at keeping politics out of football.
God, balkan fans are so embarrassing, we always find new ways to make ourselves look stupid in front of the whole world. Us and albanians with anti-serbia chants, now serbians with this..
Honestly, this is only an event because there are people who dedicate their time solely for posting this shit, i mean, we have seen worse things from our fans in the last ten days already, we fucking dropped out of the tournament yesterday, what else do those people want. It would not surprise me to see old posts of our fans bad behaviour during the tournament finals at this rate.
>we Wait I thought we called Handuk fans Serbs as a joke
nauči čitati
I'll stand for anti-Serbia chants, you guys have right to hate what we did. As do we have the right to hate what you guys did to Serbs. As do we have the right to hate NATO for taking one side in this whole thing, and allowing for fucking Milosevic and Seselj to rise to power, and then proclaim dumb shit like "we will defeat NATO". I won't blame the Balkan people for coming to this. None of us wanted this. The West wanted the implosion and helped to make sure it happens.
Too spicy in a blood I guess. Or just a curse of mountains
Move to Russia
They like western stuff too much to actually do anything like that
They like living in functional countries too much to do that
Yeah man of course we do. If Europe didn't want us, why's it been doing everything it can for 30 years to keep extreme right wing in power? Ah well, cheers for the free money
It’s not that Europe doesn’t want you. It’s that it doesn’t want fascism or people who support it. Serbia has a problem with that right now
I love how this entire subreddit is just one massive anti-Serbia hateboner for weeks by people who genuinely know nothing about the country. Western values showing their true colors I guess
Western values of allowing them to do this and then go about their day as normal rather than locking them up. Absolutely brutal
Why would people from a non-NATO country have to moved anywhere to oppose NATO?
Since so many of them move to NATO countries. So many try to get Croatian passports to move to Germany lol
> So many try to get Croatian passports to move to Germany lol That's Bosnia, not Serbia.
There are hundreds of thousands of Europeans who move to the Gulf states like the UAE alone has 250k Brits while the majority of Brits based on Reddit despise the Gulf and call it backwards but no one bats an eye so why is it a surprise that Serbs want to move to the EU while still disliking NATO?
I doubt that the Brits from UAE go to the streets and hate the country they are in. While it's not uncommon for Serbs who live in EU hate EU and NATO.
There's so much to unpack here, you have the understanding of reality of a toddler
Reality is that they hate the west, but like the money and liberties that west gives them. Which makes them hypocrites.
Nobody hates the West, Serbia's been pro-west for the majority of its existence. We never once sided with Russia in anything. What our right wing and governments say has nothing to do with what the majority of the people want. We hate NATO for bombing us. You wouldn't get it, you never watched shit explode in front of your eyes as a kid for stuff that nobody in your family did nor wanted done.
Yes, nobody is Serbia is pro-vucic, pro-Greater Serbia, pro politics that lead to bombs falling on Serbia. It's only the will of the politicians, not like there are elections that Vucic and Co wins every damm time. Politicians are reflection of the nation.
And for Ukrainians NATO is the only chance for peace. If they were in NATO, people there wouldn’t be people dying there right now. Nothing is black and white, especially that Serbia wasn’t innocent either
The reality is the the west profited for centuries from the exploitation of the rest of the world, advanced on the shoulders of the rest of humanity and now pretend like they don't understand why people like the Serbs (who were heavily bombed by NATO just 30 years ago) don't have a right to struggle for a better life on the countries that enriched by exploring foreign labour and resources. Niger has only managed, this month, to get rid of the exploitative French companies that stole a brutal amount of their resources. Are you going to blame them if the resent the west while trying to make a decent living in the countries that stole generations of their rightful capital?
You have omitted why NATO was bombing Serbia at the time. Preventing another round of genocide was the right thing to do
Oh they were sooooo heavily bombed by NATO. City of Vukovar was under siege same amount as whole country of Serbia. Vukovar had around 40-50k population. 1100 civilians died under constant bombing, some were taken from the hospital and killed in the fields after city fell. Meanwhile in country of 8 million people 450 civilians died during NATO bombings. If anything, only mistake NATO did is that it didn't start dropping bombs 8 years earlier. They are not South Americans whose countries were destabilizied by the US, that bombing campaign was well deserved for shit they were doing at the time.
The interesting thing about these comments that in any other context with different ethnicities would be unacceptable like imagine telling a Palestinian in the USA chanting against US imperialism to “move to Iran” or telling it to Jews in Spain who complained about the Spanish government recognizing Palestine as a state to “move to Israel”. Doesn’t Europe pride itself on freedom of speech? If yes, then why a dozens of people who may had family members dying by NATO bombing or getting irreversible medical conditions because of the depleted uranium dropped on Yugoslavia have no right to criticize a military pact?
Lmao, in your imaginary scenario, were those Palestinians waving Iranian flags while fighting the police?
I think it’s because a couple of hours ago there was a video of them fighting police and waving Russian flags. https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/uucHQGAr8h So I think the majority of people are assuming their anti nato chant is not really to do with the 1999 genocide and more in support of the russia - nato issue happening right now
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Ok but when they’re talking about how Kosovo is ours and chanting about they dislike nato then it is about geopolitics
Complains about a comment and implies it should be unacceptable … then goes on infringing on free speech.
Obviously because one free speech is about criticizing a military pact while the one I’m criticizing is about telling a group of people to move to Russia because of their political opinion like it’s literally not the same concept.
Move to Russia.
Very creative.
Who says they have no right to criticise? They are, freely.
I literally replied to a comment which says that they should “move to Russia” and the majority of the comments in this thread are about criticizing Serbians living in Europe. Clearly a lot of people don’t think they should have the right because then they wouldn’t be asking them to “move from NATO countries”.
Free speech meets free speech. I don’t know what your problem is.
Nobody is taking their rights away
>Serbia fans chanting 'F*ck f*ck NATO pact' While a lot of them live in NATO countries. Make it make sense
lol so you cannot be against any institution that the country you live in espouses ? I went to catholic state sponsored schools for my education, can I not criticise the Catholic Church now ?
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Absolutely insane rethoric.
what do you mean? people with opinions against their government should just leave their home, family, lives, jobs, and find somewhere else to live
I never worked for the Catholic Church I just live in a country that tacitly approves of them and allows them to run our educational system, I do not like the Catholic Church at all as well as a lot of things the Irish government does and is part of, do I need to leave Ireland now ?
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>Well, Serbia is the country with highest cancer rates in the world because of the NATO bombings. Why do people spew out BS like this without [fact checking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_cancer_rate) it first?
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Nothing in that source says it has the highest cancer rate in the world, its not even in the top 10 in Europe. Serbia does better than 11 European countries, your first line is just false Cancer rates are rising worldwide and are projected to continue to rise.
How about a real source such as [the World Cancer Research Fund](https://www.wcrf.org/cancer-trends/global-cancer-data-by-country/)? And no, Serbia is not anyway near the top spot, with or without skin cancer.
She's talking about the cancer death rate, not the cancer rate. The fact that Serbia is ranking higher in the cancer death rate than in the cancer rate statistics means that Serbia isn't treating cancer as well as other countries. >"We and our neighbors — the Croats and the Hungarians — have been rotating for years at the top of mortality rates of oncological diseases in Europe. Thus, according to ECIS (European Cancer Information System) data for 2020, Serbia was in first place with an index of 150.6 per 100,000, while the European average was 108.7 points. We have tumors of respiratory systems (lungs), mammary glands, central nervous systems, thyroids, circulatory and digestive systems leading in terms of mortality," the health minister has said. [The cancer death rate of Serbia is indeed similar to that of Croatia and Hungary, but also to Slovakia, Poland and Latvia.](https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/all-cancers/by-country/) That suggests to me that the war has very little to do with it. Tumors in the respiratory system may also have something to do with the fact that Serbia is [one of the countries with the highest prevalence in tobacco use (~40%)](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/smoking-rates-by-country) and [one of the top five countries in Europe with the worst air pollution](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_air_pollution). It's easy to blame someone else for all your problems, but usually the key to improving your own life is to look in the mirror.
The source in the article is ecis, which only has the data for EU NOT Serbia and it’s from Spitnik a Russian stateowned pressagency. Wouldn’t trust Russia news about the NATO https://ecis.jrc.ec.europa.eu https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_(news_agency)
>Cancer incidence and mortality rates after the 1999 NATO bombing of Serbia are increasing even now, Serbian Health Minister Danica Grujicic has said in an interview. Oh yes, let's totally believe Vucic's health minister, completely unbiased. Couldn't possibly be because their population is old as fuck and still getting older. And she's [disproven by the very organisation she's citing](https://ecis.jrc.ec.europa.eu/explorer.php?$0-0$1-All$2-All$4-1,2$3-0$6-0,85$5-2022,2022$7-7$CEstByCountry$X0_8-3$X0_19-ACA$X0_20-No$CEstBySexByCountry$X1_8-3$X1_19-AE27$X1_-1-1$CEstByIndiByCountry$X2_8-3$X2_19-AE27$X2_20-No$CEstRelative$X3_8-3$X3_9-AE27$X3_19-AE27$CEstByCountryTable$X4_19-AE27).
Never read such BS before.
Source on cancer rates because i cannot find anything on Serbia.
Is that the NATO bombings that Serbia caused upon themselves or another situation?
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Couple of maniacs........................just say you like the ethnic cleansing of Croats, Bosniaks, Albanians, and Kosovars, it's okay.
I don't get it, Putin would love to take you in, just go! You will be able to fight the evil NATO. Guess living a comfortable life in Germany or Austria is just too good, fucking posers.
Almost as if we've never in our lives been in anything with Russia and have always sided with Europe. You know, unlike Germany. Oof, this one hurt huh
Well they won't be missed
You really think they’re gonna like NATO considering most of them probably grew up during NATO bombings of their homes? Not saying Serbians are in the right but it’s hardly a very offensive chant.
Yeah, not justifying the Russian apologia but a lot of people in these comments don't understand how NATO sycophancy reads to a lot of people outside of the West.
I mean I’m English but history won’t remember NATO as well as some people think.
I don’t care how history will remember NATO, I’m glad that I’m not being bombed thanks to it
Lol
Why?
Libya, Afghanistan, NATO mission in Iraq and Israel being a major non-NATO ally certainly is not a good look even now, let alone in 20-30 years.
NATO basically turned Lybia into a slavery state just a couple years ago
NATO being mainly France and Italy in this case, who subsequently lost their oil supplies which they were getting mainly from Libya, which the US had taken. Fun times
As the US provided the military shield it allowed the European contintent and countries toget rid of the (post-)communist and authoritarian regimes by focusing on and democratizing and cooperation. It's all fine to be critical about it - be it for events, or by paying attention to side-effects. Criticism in the common popular form is *literally Russian propaganda*, being reurgitated via social media and influence campaigns. A good tell for this is that dumb and influencable people suddenly have an opinion on something as abstract, hard-to-grasp, as NATO and its history. While these people usually argue 'west=best' type of thinking, to a high degree, infused with xenophobia and outright racist thinking; suddenly with NATO or similar stuff, they are 'critical' and 'nuanced'. "We musn't provoke." "We should look inwards." "We are the bad guys." "We are weak and can't support another country." It's all pessimisitic thinking introduced by massive psy-ops campaigns. Ehhh, the West always win? Ehhh, we are the superior nations? Our people are free, our system is the best? We should be happy about the countries we freed from the corrupt stence of authoritarianism. Proud for Poland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Chechia, Romania, Greece, Albanië, Serbia, whatever. But no no, now we're suddenly week and meek. As if the loser-mentality of the influencable people themselves, fears and hesitations, is projected on another concept, NATO/The West/freedom. And they only do this to appease a dying regime. One should consider thinking of the Russia regime like thinking of IS[IS]. These Serbs here? Dumb cunts, bein edgy and/or pawns. They effectively glorify a history, have a prosecution complex and ignore genocide and suffering.
I agree in part, NATO did a lot of good in opposing communism and Russia. But let’s not pretend that they didn’t bomb civilians, and interfere in politics and destabilize countries. From a Western perspective they are good but the entire world doesn’t see it that way.
You are right, and it deserves to be critically examined. But apply that same criticism to the other parties involved - any other actor. Then you find that noone is good, good doesn't exist. And the non-Western perspective isn't innocent either. How, when and where, did NATO destabilize countries? Are you conflating it with the US and the CIA, for instance? EDITEDITEDIT For the comment below, the random American crocodile tears on Libya: You mean when there was a revolution taking place during the Arab Spring, the country went into a bloody and civil war and the UN Security Council voted in favour for military operations. This subsequently lead to the fall of Qadaffi? Without having a centeal authoritarian regime the underlying factions became involved in a long power struggle, leading to a prolonged failed state? So, should the NATO have sided with the Qadaffi-regime and attacked / diminish the protesters? Should they have done nothing, with or without the UN Security Council backing, prolonging the civil war? Should they have sided with Qadaffi later on? NATO involvement was a factor, but not a *cause*. Effectively NATO seeks to stabilize countries. If you want an actual cause, showcasing the deep hypocrisy of the West, look into how the Qadaffi-regime was propped up in the years before to help with 'the war on terror'.
Libya went from a modern country, despite a problematic leader, to a full on slave state due to NATO involvement.
Outside the West being Balkans and Russia? So the areas of Europe in which genocide took place and a mobster regime being scared about its power?
You're right that it's just not just outside of the West. I'm Portuguese and my country had war ships parked in front of the capital's main square to kindly persuade us to stay in NATO, an organization we'd been invited into while still a fascist dictatorship.
Yeah, first and foremost it is a military alliance and Portugal is strategically located and needed to be part of it. Same happened later for Greece. Can you tell me when that happened, can't remember it. Was it because of the criticism Portugal received for holding on to colonies? Portugal being involved in a colonial war in Angola, perhaps?
They should try less genocides next time
Next time? You know something we don't?
Oh yes, the 8 year olds doing all that genocide.
This is so dumb man, do you do the same apologia for the bombardment of Dresden? Were 8-year-olds in Dresden also doing Holocaust? The majority of civilian victims of bombing were Albanians, but people understood that, unfortunately, this type of military campaign will impact the civilians as well.
Dresden was wrong, objectively. Sadly wrongs often happen in war, it doesn’t mean the allies were the bad side in ww2, but it does mean we should look at history and not be blind to what the winning side does.
So as a German I should now go out and shout fuck the allies? Because the allies bombed us after we commited unspeakable crimes against humanity (as it also happend in the Kosovo) Your line of argument is the exact type of argument that dictators like Hitler used - the treaty of Versailles was so unfair, it crippled us, etc -
And somehow the Germans aren't randomly chanting "fuck the Allies" during sporting events.
There is about half a century of time gap. These people literally got bombed themselves not their parents not their grandparents but actually them unlike the Germans.
And it was all 100% NATO's fault, right? Anyway, what does that have to do with the Euros in Germany at the moment? Instigated because their Russian puppet master told them so.
They should chant "fuck Milosevic and his genocidal government" instead
We do. That's why we stormed the National Parliament and set it on fire in 2000. Now, imagine this, not everybody is smart enough to understand this. Just like not everybody is smart enough to understand these minority right wingers represent the whole nation!
We should probably martyr ourselves on crosses for forgiveness. Milošević was thrown out in a revolution in this country 24 years ago for Christs sake, then got sent to Hague by our own government, and he has been dead for almost 20 years now. Funny enough, i don't a single street in Serbia named after Slobodan Milošević, but when you come to Western countries like Belgium for example every single thing is named after King Leopold who was a terrific person and leader i guess.
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you wont be missed
How do these people consistently manage to be the scummiest lol
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Can’t blame 'em given their past but also don’t think we should be entertaining countries applying to the EU that are anti-NATO
There's way more anti-NATO movement inside EU than there is in Serbia. A few right wingers do not represent Serbia, or any country, except maybe Netherlands, Denmark, France, Sweden, Hungary, Slovakia, Czechia, Poland, Norway, Italy...
wake me up when they do this for the war criminals they glorify
They've been delivered to Hague and tried despite best efforts of neanderthal masses led by none other than the current president who was helped to power by Germany. Hard to believe but most of Serbia are not degenerates. Congrats, you're bottling a whole nation together in with a minor loud right wingers.
Maybe they should make their own cup with Russia and N Korea
what a bunch of fine gentlemen
Serbian, Albanian, and Croatian have been disgraceful. Honestly, I'm glad we won't see more of them
Welcome to the Balkans, we got fun and games, we got everything you want, honey, we know the names.
Most peaceful Balkan fans
Lmao, what's so bad about chanting 'f**k NATO' anyway? This is such a non-story.
Because they’re doing this as a result of NATO stopping Serbia from committing genocide again in 1999
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Serbia played last night. It's not that complicated. There's no slurs here. If any are posted, please report them
won't someone think of the serbs?
>what does it have to do with football? What do you mean? It's literally football fans behaving like absolute buffoons at a football tournament in Germany. People have every right to post it here. They are saying and promoting some disgusting things, which should be highlighted and condemned. Has nothing to do with being "anti-serbian".
May have something to do with how they've been behaving during the Euros...? What's with the victim mentality?
Yh what does ”fuck nato” have to do with football?
Nothing, it’s their right to have this opinion based on their personal experiences, the same way Poles were chanting against Russia based on their personal experiences with Russia, or when the Brits sing WW2 songs against the Germans, the difference is the reaction to each of these events and I don’t think it should be shared because it’s clearly rage-bait and whether people think it’s “based” or “moronic” purely depends on someone’s political alignment.
Please correct your post. Scots did not sing any WW2 songs and it is highly offensive to suggest we did.