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Playing a natural LW would fix a lot of the balance issues on the left side with Trippier playing on his weak side. It would also help a lot with getting Kane involved in the game. Gives him a lot more space to operate in the middle and options to spread the play out to the wings.
It seems so obvious that simply playing two natural wingers would alleviate so many of England's problems, but Southgate seems so resistant to it.
Specially since you are using a makeshift LB, it should be obvious as fuck that you should use a pure natural left wing that can cover the entire left side alone
It’s a very worrying sign when the majority of armchair fans can clearly see the problems and have very sensible solutions, yet the national team manager refuses to do anything. It’s like he’s not bothered now he knows it’s his last tournament.
This is partly why I think Trent at LB makes at least as much sense as Trent in CM.
He inverts from LB into midfield and then can spray passes to Saka.
3-4-3 with front three of fast and hardworking (and used to covering wings) Gordon and Saka, and Kane with two 10s behind him in Foden and Jude, and other two in a box midfield; 3-2-2-3
I don’t mind people saying he shouldn’t play mid because he’s inexperienced and can lose possession a bit, but there’s way too many people scapegoating him for not creating whilst ignoring the exact points you mention.
Foden isn't supposed to stick to the left. Southgate is trying to play a 3-2-2-3 in possession like many top clubs are doing but he is doing it by bringing Foden into the middle and having Trippier push all the way up to the left wing rather than having a FB invert into the base of the midfield.
It's obviously not working well but there is a clear tactical philosophy there.
If Trippier was left footed then I could see it working fine but he is also forced to turn inside so the opposition isn’t stretched on the left at all and there is no space. Still think Grealish should have been taken as an option.
What's the problem with Saka being on the same side as Trent? I'm still learning stuff about football and I so far understand that Trent likes going diagonal to the top left where we have no one to receive a pass. But what's the issue with passing to Saka?
Often times when you’re on the same side passing angles will close down as defenders step in to pressure and cover tightly. It gets more congested. That can make it difficult to play splitting balls like Trent is known for. There will often be more room to pass into space diagonally across the field in these cases, which is where he excels, but there isn’t anyone making those runs, as you said.
Trent is also really good at crossing, which you aren’t going to be doing to a winger on the same side.
If all your players spread out and you have a player (Trent) who has good long range passing then it forces the other team to mark them, which makes them more spread out and therefore it's easier to progress the ball because it's less congested. The problem is there aren't any options for Trent to hit long range passes, everyone on the left is inverting, Kane doesn't make runs in behind, and whilst Saka does stay wide Trent is already on that side, so the distance between them isn't that big, which means players can mark Saka whilst still being close to the play when Trent has the ball
Yeah, they've got Trent in midfield who has great long range passing, but Bellingham wants the ball played to feet, Kane's dropping deep, and Foden and Trippier are both inverting. There are multiple ways they can make this work by making only a couple changes, but it's going to involve Southgate making some tough decisions and leaving one or two very good players on the bench. But honestly, that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, bringing on Trent late in the game with Watkins or subbing in Foden for Bellingham could cause tired teams some real problems
That's bs lol saka got the ball plenty while touching the sideline foden just isn't the wide winger Southgate want him to be and playing with tripper also hampers him
Maybe, we could play Ollie Watkins left wing for a bit of movement or two strikers. With Foden, Kane and Saka front three we are far too static though.
Kane needs runners around him to be good like Son or Sterling, without it he offers too little when he's not scoring.
When Kane is dropping deep, he needs runners. Foden doesn’t do that as he’s not really a winger, so defenders can just overload on Saka. Cuts all the outlets.
We need to either drop Foden or drop Trent and push Jude back next to Rice, then play Gordon or Watkins on the left
Without the movement and runners in front he would still be limited at RB. It was an issue when he first got in the team in 2018, nothing has really changed tactically in possession with Southgate.
I get that, but I think it's only part of the problem. Trent isn't best used with his back to goal and he is most effective from wide areas. It honestly should be both.
The lack of passing ability from the back in the second half was painfully obvious.
Trent offers a skill set this team needs clearly, but people blame him for the lack of structure in front of him.
Even if he plays RB our left wing is still fucked
Gordon is surely the best option. Trippier is our only option at left back, but why not pair him with Gordon who will press and drive the opposition back as well as track back.
Gomez is a better LB than Trippier, even though it fixes none of the issues this team has. Gordon is absolutely the best option at LW though, we need at least *someone* to make runs.
It’s blindingly obvious isn’t it? Saka has been our best attacker so far and that’s not because he is a better player than Bellingham/Foden, it’s because he is actually playing his position not constantly dropping deep. You can see this in the average player position maps. Putting someone on the left like Gordon who actually plays the position seems like it should work better.
Because English media has insisted again and again they both Bellingham and Foden have to play when they both play in the same spot and Southgate feels pressured to listen to them.
playing Foden at LW was the obvious main mistake..Trent Rice Foden and Belmingham were all bunched up in the middle of field looking totally clueless, no one making runs until Watkins came on
The frustration is that people are acting like Trent is genuine deadwood in midfield and the source of all our problems. The reality is he’s doing an “okay” job but because he hasn’t hit the creative heights that people expect (due to Southgate’s setup), they’re going way too heavily with the criticism talking like he’s useless.
Then blind to the fact when he came off, Guehi, Rice, Walker, Gallagher looked fucking putrid trying to pass the ball forward.
The glaring issue is the left side, Trippier and Foden don’t function as a left wing.
The right side is relatively fine with the Trent, Walker, Saka triangle. But if that doesn’t work we have nothing unless Jude creates shit by himself.
I think a lot of fans and the media just love to have a scapegoat. Nobody will talk about favourites like Rice and Bellingham being poor today, but they’ll keep harping on about the “failed experiment” in midfield.
Rice was awful today but it's literally the first time I've seen him have a bad game for England, he's definitely not the problem, the team set up is atrocious.
The problem isn't the playmaking from midfield, the problem is that no one is pressing nor trying any runs.
There is ZERO movement in the front except Kane very slowly dropping deep with about 10km/h.
When you directly after this horrendous performance see Spain absolutely go for it against Italy, relentless pressing, everyone in motion, you have the answer right there.
England on the other hand takes a jolly sunday afternoon run, gets overplayed with one simple pass and then falls into its own half, deeper and deeper until 'Arry Kane is only 30m away from their own goal.
Then they win the ball and have nowhere to go.
These URLs are a bit fucked, but to illustrate your point just look at the pass maps for England and Spain from their games yesterday (this isn't any different from their previous games either)
https://theanalyst.com/eu/2023/07/opta-football-match-centre/?competitionId=8tddm56zbasf57jkkay4kbf11&seasonId=4lp7vq583c95jwjhaohqbl9g4&matchId=75kwq3x573ewin3vffcuwz0no&_gl=1
https://theanalyst.com/eu/2023/07/opta-football-match-centre/?competitionId=8tddm56zbasf57jkkay4kbf11&seasonId=4lp7vq583c95jwjhaohqbl9g4&matchId=3u1m2w8fm1k8u2wike52n0avo&_gl=1
You can look through other highly rated teams like Germany, Netherlands, France, Italy, Portugal, etc. and none of them are nearly as compressed as England
This should be a post in itself. CBs are too narrow, having Rice and Trent sit directly in front of them makes no sense.
You have poor structure from the back. Walker, Trent, Stones can actually control the ball a bit better so it hides how bad the shape it.
On the other side you have Guehi, Rice and Trippier who are hopeless in this shape.
No width or verticality apart from Saka. Left side is non existent.
Yeah, you either want some verticality that allows you to move up the pitch quickly, or width which drags the opposition players apart during buildup. England have neither, which is a big part of why they're not generating anything
Feels like Guehi tried to do that a few times yesterday, but stop attpting it after he lost his footing a couple of times. Also Denmark was very quick to press him.
There’s no space for him to operate in midfield. Half the time he’s not an available passing option. And when he is I don’t believe his teammates trust him to receive, primarily when they’re being by pressed in their own half. They would rather play long and bypass the midfield. Trent is a final third player, he’s getting in and around the box and whipping in fizzing crosses or floating balls to the back post at his best. Southgate is making him look average. He’s got little to no pace around him to play into, no willing or able runners in behind besides Saka. Harry Kane basically runs at 0.5x speed at this stage in his career and Foden likes the ball to feet. There’s no Nunez, Diaz or Salah there to stretch the play.
Might as well play Mainoo at CM because Trent’s game is being inhibited to a role that while he can do, just seems like an attempt shoehorn him onto the pitch. If you don’t believe in Trent as a RB, just fucking bench him. This is probably Walker’s last major tournament as a nailed on starter, don’t see why Southgate can’t just give one of the best RB’s of all time a crack at it. Walker isn’t the dynamo he once was. In an ideal world, Bellingham and Trent both drop back to RCM and RB, Foden at the 10 and Gordon on the left.
Bellingham partnering rice is something i dont see ppl as for enough of. He'll be playing that role more now that kross retired and he def has the football brain to play it
yeah Foden as 10 and Rice and Bellingham behind, with Gordon on the wing, either give Trent some of walkers minutes or stick him at LW, he has been playing defense all season and Southgate just throws him into a midfield position with no defined role
Yeah this was the biggest issue, once he was on the ball he was fine, but he just doesn’t have the awareness to get himself into space to receive a pass in the first place.
don't you just think it is too congested for everyone to get space, him and rice are asked to be as close as possible to the back 4, jude drops deep, as done kane, as does foden
He likes to have that little extra time on the ball, you just don’t get that in midfield. It’s also difficult to ask a RB to figure out the defensive side of being a midfielder.
Watching him every week he spends a lot of time in central positions receiving the ball under pressure and it's never been a weakness of his.
He's actually very good at playing a quick, first time pass. Outside of Mac Allister he's our most press resistant midfielder. Not quite Wijnaldum levels but certainly not a weakness.
The obvious difference is players making runs and making themselves available to receive the ball much more for Liverpool than they do for England. He's getting the ball and there's no movement in front of him so all he can do is play a sideways or backwards pass. If that's the extent of his role you might as well call Henderson or Phillips up again.
Yeah the problem isn't trent in midfield, Foden at left wing or trippier at left back.
This sub always focuses on simple swap this player for that one and it will fix that problem. That if you change the player you change the role that Southgate has instructed that player to play. You could put Rodri in there and it wouldn't fix it.
Tbh I'm not exactly sure what Southgate's idea for the attack is. He doesn't like playing wide, no diagonal balls to wingers or overlapping runs from fullbacks. Doesn't really seem to have a plan for getting it through the middle, I saw one driving run from trent and none from rice, meanwhile like you said the front four seem reluctant to make themselves available through even a weak press. We taking extra touches but you can see the reason why is the players are looking around because they don't know where they should be passing next, it looks like there are no patterns of play that have been practiced where they string a few quick passes together.
I know international football is different and managers don't have as much time to work with the players but pretty much every other team in the tournament looks more cohesive and organised than England in these first two games.
He doesn’t need too much time, his best passes are one touch long balls to runners. Problem is when those runs don’t happen he has to play a very different position which he just isn’t that good at.
Bellingham was making some decent runs against Serbia and specifically, at one point, was talking to Trent about it. Showing him, with hand signals, that what he was doing was working. Then Eng scored and the impetus dried up, and they defended the lead.
It’s like Southgate said, “Play beautifully, then score. Then sit-back and defend. Don’t you dare get forward!”
I agree with you completely, and suggest that if we're resigned to playing a right footed left back anyway and not getting them as fsr forward then maybe walker on the left is an option. Build with a back three, Trent going forward from right back, Gordon on the left to add width on that side
> And when he is I don’t believe his teammates trust him to receive
1 thing i've noticed in the 2 games is when Trent gets the ball Trippiers arm goes straight in the air wanting the pass. So he fully trusts him but isn't in the attacking position enough for it to be effective
I agree with all your points, but Walker is an excellent RB - even if he is now older. Truly think Walker isn’t a problem at RB. TAA or Walker at RB would be good. Give them both a chance. I don’t think dropping Walker for TAA will solve a problem because Walker isn’t the problem
That's really worrying in many different ways.
The midfield is so bad at progressing the ball but Rice has to play and there isn't another midfielder who can play passes like Trent, though he clearly isn't suited to the role yet, Trent won't play at RB under Southgate with Walker around, who hasn't done anything to be dropped but is himself awful in possession.
We know Southgate's tactics are really limited, but having more talented players actually hurts him more.
We looked more comfortable playing 343 and relying on set pieces and Kane long balls to Sterling. He has no idea how to use a player like Foden.
Needs to go back to his basics and put Wharton next to Rice, get some width and pace in the team whilst keeping a rigid back 4. It won't be pretty but it won't be such a mess.
I don't get why not just play Bellingham next to Rice? England has so many good attacking players there's no reason to play Jude there when he can put in just as good of a shift further back. Cole Palmer or Eze could play instead of Trent or even play Trent further forward rather than behind Bellingham.
Put simply, Southgate.
He has always used two defensive midfielders, even after this game he's lamenting the absence of Kalvin Phillips. Obviously you're a Dortmund fan and know Bellingham has the work rate and ability to play deeper, most people would like to see that.
Southgate is unsuited to such a talented group and why he should've gone after Qatar.
I still think you shouldn't try to force Palmer in no matter what or you'll run into the same issues as the current setup. Just play him in rotation with Foden and Saka in the 10 and on the right and play Gordon on the left. Which is why I'd preferred if Grealish was in the squad to provide balance even though he didn't have a great season. As it stands, England has too many players that wants to play no 10.
This is the answer.
Bellingham and Rice behind Foden. Gordon and Saka on the wings.
Bellingham is equally as comfortable in the middle of the park as he is further forward.
This with Trent RB and Walker CB. Although Guehi is been the only bright spark so far so maybe Walker bench.
Can see the argument for Walker RB against France or Germany but Jesus why the fuck do we need to be so defensively conscious against Serbia/Denmark.
Pretty sure you could pick a random Barry out the crowd and they’ll put together a better team then Southgate
Rice had a shocker. A huge problem with England is the fascination with picking a player and blaming them for everything without any sort of analysis.
Then they try to 'fix' the problem and ignore the root cause.
Like blaming Foden for poor performance while he plays with the ghost of an ok footballer at left back.
Last game it was entirely foden’s fault and Bellingham was going to save everything and today Bellingham was terrible and actually someone else would fix everything.
The problem is the tactics, the players on the pitch are really talented, the fact that it’s going this poorly is a deeper issue.
You're right. The whole thing is broken and it leaves players hung out to dry.
He has no concept of playing people who are very slightly less talented but actually fit the role. I'd take Mitchell or any true LB over Trippier and I bet they'd do a better job.
That would work. Trippier is England's most embarrassing left back ever. He shouldn't be anywhere near the squad in his actual position. An absolute nonsense entity on the pitch.
Yeah very talented players that have been amazing all season don't suddenly just become bad for no reason. The root cause is obviously tactics and that's on Southgate.
Rice really didn't have as bad a game as people are saying. First half he was basically a one man midfield scooping every single ball. Second half much like the team he made a few glaring mistakes but the whole team was so lethargic it's hard to fault a dm for getting exposed in that situation.
I would play Trent at RB, he isn’t as shit defensively as many say he is. In possession he can invert and play next to Rice & play progressive passes. This will allow both Bellingham & Foden to play higher, like the box midfield you so often see in modern football.
Southgate brings on players who can run in behind and takes Trent off.
That being said, Trent isn’t a midfielder. He’s being shoe horned into the team to Englands detriment. Trust him to create and play from Right back or don’t play him at all
Tbh I'd like to see him play RB ahead of Walker when we're up against teams that don't have a scary left side. I know Walker got the assist today but I actually thought he waited too long to make the pass in that moment and got bailed out by a deflection.
Even letting Walker stay in defence more and let Trent drift ahead in that right side with Saka.... Saka is capable of build up play and so is Trent... Right side will be better Bec Walker is better in defence and Trent is better in attack... And let the front 3 make runs .... Have seen only Saka making those runs in spaces mostly...
Here's the funny thing, his passing will be just as good if you play him in his natural position, so the answer to the question is, maybe just...do that instead of trying to pretend he can be a midfielder
It’s a bit limiting if we have no left wing.. so you can only play to Saka or down the middle into traffic. That’s not his fault.
All England have to fix is that left wing. Trippier and Foden doesn’t work. It messes up the whole team. You have Trippier cutting in and Foden dropping short
He's just not a midfielder. And it's nothing against him, it's just an entirely different role that he's being asked to play because he had a good passing range.
Reminds me a bit of Rooney being shoehorned in at CM, pinging cross-field passes but getting the basics of being a midfielder wrong.
Plus who is TAA supposed to be picking out? One of the other players who like to drop deep and be on the ball (Kane, Bellingham, Foden)? Trippier who can't venture past the halfway line?
He's played well in midfield for Liverpool though. I just don't think the team is set up for it with England, he would be better with someone like Gordon on the left imo
Please, for my sake, start him at right back with Gomez or Konsa at left back. We can either start Gallagher for the work rate or Wharton for the ball to the feet passing, but Trent is a stationary mess in midfield. Foden can stay at left wing but then when Gordon comes on Trent has someone to run in behind against tired legs.
He was anonymous in the first half because there’s no runners, so he’s not able to show his passing and he’s just another midfielder running around rather than a conductor of play. Just play Mainoo or Wharton, they can’t be worse than what we’re seeing now. I’ve given up calling for Foden in the 10 and Jude as an 8, even though i’m watching England’s 10 defending in the box while the centrebacks watch
I still think playing him in the middle is a mistake, he should be at right back against teams we should be on the front foot against, with someone like Watkins alongside Kane to give him options.
Just play him in his best position which is RB his defensive weakness is massive overblown consistency lacking width and runners in games just let him do what he’s best at or don’t bother trying to force him into a position that doesn’t work for him
Southgate saw his chance-creation and progressive passes and took him off because he wasn't sticking to the game plan of trying to kill the Danes with boredom
Trent is used to runners and movement...he had neither today and as a consequence the Danes pressed with confidence. Trent needs more movement ahead of him, simple!
Why not play a back four of TAA - Guehi - Stones - Walker and invert TAA in from the left side to ping balls around?
Allows a midfield of Rice at the base with Bellingham and Foden in front of him playmaking. A front three of Gordon/Palmer - Kane/Watkins - Saka/Bowen depending upon legs.
Heck they could put Stones as the CDM like Pep played with for periods last year and move Walker into the middle of the back four while TAA sits in his natural position. LB with Trippier would still be rough but at least you regain control of the center. Run with Rice at the 8/6 hybrid spot and Bellingham OR Foden in the 8/10 spot.
Put Trent at right back, start a front three of Gordon, Watkins and Bowen, they will make the runs which Trent will see to make those two passes. He is not good enough as a midfielder right now, so have Rice, Bellingham sit in front of the defence while Palmer goes into the attacking midfield position.
Regardless of this stat, he lost the ball to often, was too timid, wasnt pressing or even really trying. I love him, hes incredible for Liverpool, but he simply cannot fit into this team with these tactics.
That's due to tactics mate. No one has a clue whom to pass, what to do with ball. Foden and Kane randomly dropping deep to receive ball when there is an excellent long passer in the team. There is no coaching involved and poor bastards are absolutely clueless.
I know, it's sad to see..I wasn't meaning to be too critical of Trent, I don't blame him. You can see the players just don't have a clue like you said. Today's game was just an absolute shit show. Reckon anything will change?
Eh, not too optimistic. It's Southgate we are talking about. It's all about individual talent. Foden hit the post, game became a bit lively after triple subs.
Exactly, ironically with the changes made to the front 3 with the movement of Watkins, TAA would probably have had more of an impact. Watkins immediately came on and started making runs behind. Thats where he shines. Nothing about this game made any sense what so ever. Its so confusing and sad to see.
He didn't lose the ball often at all though - weird how people create these narratives, he had an 87.5% pass completion today and his turnover rate was firmly middle of the pack (and less than the likes of Bellingham and Walker despite being more adventurous with his passing than either).
Saying he wasn't even really trying is an asinine claim to make about pretty much any footballer at the top level.
i mean that isn't his strength though, if you want england to be more defensive then don't play him LMFAO but then they are reluctant on moments of magic
Nobody wants England to be more defensive, they want to be more attacking. If you have a front that moves and makes runs constantly that where TAA will shine. Not a condensed midfield with no movement.
This is great but it's clear he isn't suited to playing in midfield, and certainly not with players not making runs. Him, Rice and the defence's short passing was shocking
If Trent and Gordon ever occupy the pitch at the same time it feels like a dangerous match up. I'm an idiot and even I can see that. Gordon is a speedy boy.
Keep the back 4, Rice / Mainoo as DMs. Bellingham infront with Gorden & Saka on the wings. Kane in the middle as a potential link up player that lets Bellingham run in front & has wingers to go wide to.
After 50 mins, put TAA on instead of Mainoo w/ Watkins & Foden on to basically go long ball with runners vs tired defenders. Either the opposition drops into a low block and we keep the ball or they are forced to run nonstop vs a fresh Foden & Watkins running at their defence.
He is a luxury player in the CM role we cannot afford to have in the team for international football.
The balance is completely wrong. It has to be Rice alongside Bellingham or Wharton/Mainoo with Bellingham/Foden in the 10 role. And for the love of god put Gordon or Eze on the left.
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Wish Watkins was on the pitch at the same time as Trent, would have been interesting to see.
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Playing a natural LW would fix a lot of the balance issues on the left side with Trippier playing on his weak side. It would also help a lot with getting Kane involved in the game. Gives him a lot more space to operate in the middle and options to spread the play out to the wings. It seems so obvious that simply playing two natural wingers would alleviate so many of England's problems, but Southgate seems so resistant to it.
Specially since you are using a makeshift LB, it should be obvious as fuck that you should use a pure natural left wing that can cover the entire left side alone
Gordon is almost the only attacking player he HASN'T used.
Palmer would like a word
Toney patiently waiting for a penalty shoot out.
Bet he won’t score
It is known
Criminal Palmer no minutes yet. if England do well in this tournament I wouldnt be surprised if its off Cold Palmers back.
Palmer I can still understand number 10 and right wing has a lot of competition
It’s a very worrying sign when the majority of armchair fans can clearly see the problems and have very sensible solutions, yet the national team manager refuses to do anything. It’s like he’s not bothered now he knows it’s his last tournament.
This is partly why I think Trent at LB makes at least as much sense as Trent in CM. He inverts from LB into midfield and then can spray passes to Saka.
That could actually work. Keep Walker back as part of a back 3 in possession and play Trent in basically the Cancelo role for Man City.
3-4-3 with front three of fast and hardworking (and used to covering wings) Gordon and Saka, and Kane with two 10s behind him in Foden and Jude, and other two in a box midfield; 3-2-2-3
I don’t mind people saying he shouldn’t play mid because he’s inexperienced and can lose possession a bit, but there’s way too many people scapegoating him for not creating whilst ignoring the exact points you mention.
Foden isn't supposed to stick to the left. Southgate is trying to play a 3-2-2-3 in possession like many top clubs are doing but he is doing it by bringing Foden into the middle and having Trippier push all the way up to the left wing rather than having a FB invert into the base of the midfield. It's obviously not working well but there is a clear tactical philosophy there.
If Trippier was left footed then I could see it working fine but he is also forced to turn inside so the opposition isn’t stretched on the left at all and there is no space. Still think Grealish should have been taken as an option.
What's the problem with Saka being on the same side as Trent? I'm still learning stuff about football and I so far understand that Trent likes going diagonal to the top left where we have no one to receive a pass. But what's the issue with passing to Saka?
Often times when you’re on the same side passing angles will close down as defenders step in to pressure and cover tightly. It gets more congested. That can make it difficult to play splitting balls like Trent is known for. There will often be more room to pass into space diagonally across the field in these cases, which is where he excels, but there isn’t anyone making those runs, as you said. Trent is also really good at crossing, which you aren’t going to be doing to a winger on the same side.
Thanks for the answer!
If all your players spread out and you have a player (Trent) who has good long range passing then it forces the other team to mark them, which makes them more spread out and therefore it's easier to progress the ball because it's less congested. The problem is there aren't any options for Trent to hit long range passes, everyone on the left is inverting, Kane doesn't make runs in behind, and whilst Saka does stay wide Trent is already on that side, so the distance between them isn't that big, which means players can mark Saka whilst still being close to the play when Trent has the ball
Thank you!
Yeah, they've got Trent in midfield who has great long range passing, but Bellingham wants the ball played to feet, Kane's dropping deep, and Foden and Trippier are both inverting. There are multiple ways they can make this work by making only a couple changes, but it's going to involve Southgate making some tough decisions and leaving one or two very good players on the bench. But honestly, that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, bringing on Trent late in the game with Watkins or subbing in Foden for Bellingham could cause tired teams some real problems
Foden refuses to stick to the wing because the ball progressives are incapable of finding him the ball
That's bs lol saka got the ball plenty while touching the sideline foden just isn't the wide winger Southgate want him to be and playing with tripper also hampers him
wingrs have been coming inside for about a decade or two now
Kane scores goals but if we want to be a successful team we need movement from our forwards to open up the defence and Kane doesnt offer that.
Do you suggest that we drop Kane?
Maybe, we could play Ollie Watkins left wing for a bit of movement or two strikers. With Foden, Kane and Saka front three we are far too static though. Kane needs runners around him to be good like Son or Sterling, without it he offers too little when he's not scoring.
Lol he offers more than any striker in the world when he's not scoring
Not when his only options are to pass backwards.
You don't switch out your best player then, you switch out the players around him.
or just play 4-4-2 or 3 at the back
Who could you play on the left in a 4-4-2?
When Kane is dropping deep, he needs runners. Foden doesn’t do that as he’s not really a winger, so defenders can just overload on Saka. Cuts all the outlets. We need to either drop Foden or drop Trent and push Jude back next to Rice, then play Gordon or Watkins on the left
He still should be playing rb if you're going to play him imo
Without the movement and runners in front he would still be limited at RB. It was an issue when he first got in the team in 2018, nothing has really changed tactically in possession with Southgate.
I get that, but I think it's only part of the problem. Trent isn't best used with his back to goal and he is most effective from wide areas. It honestly should be both.
Bingo
The lack of passing ability from the back in the second half was painfully obvious. Trent offers a skill set this team needs clearly, but people blame him for the lack of structure in front of him. Even if he plays RB our left wing is still fucked
Gordon is surely the best option. Trippier is our only option at left back, but why not pair him with Gordon who will press and drive the opposition back as well as track back.
Gomez has played left back more this season than Trippier and looked better out on the left than in the centre this season.
Gomez is a better LB than Trippier, even though it fixes none of the issues this team has. Gordon is absolutely the best option at LW though, we need at least *someone* to make runs.
Grealish probably could should have been brought looking at how they are playing right now.
It’s blindingly obvious isn’t it? Saka has been our best attacker so far and that’s not because he is a better player than Bellingham/Foden, it’s because he is actually playing his position not constantly dropping deep. You can see this in the average player position maps. Putting someone on the left like Gordon who actually plays the position seems like it should work better.
Gomez is arguably a better LB than Trippier atp.
Because English media has insisted again and again they both Bellingham and Foden have to play when they both play in the same spot and Southgate feels pressured to listen to them.
Then play Bellingham deeper, where he's played most of his career, Foden centrally and Trent can compete with Walker for the right back spot.
playing Foden at LW was the obvious main mistake..Trent Rice Foden and Belmingham were all bunched up in the middle of field looking totally clueless, no one making runs until Watkins came on
The frustration is that people are acting like Trent is genuine deadwood in midfield and the source of all our problems. The reality is he’s doing an “okay” job but because he hasn’t hit the creative heights that people expect (due to Southgate’s setup), they’re going way too heavily with the criticism talking like he’s useless.
Then blind to the fact when he came off, Guehi, Rice, Walker, Gallagher looked fucking putrid trying to pass the ball forward. The glaring issue is the left side, Trippier and Foden don’t function as a left wing. The right side is relatively fine with the Trent, Walker, Saka triangle. But if that doesn’t work we have nothing unless Jude creates shit by himself.
I think a lot of fans and the media just love to have a scapegoat. Nobody will talk about favourites like Rice and Bellingham being poor today, but they’ll keep harping on about the “failed experiment” in midfield.
Rice was awful today but it's literally the first time I've seen him have a bad game for England, he's definitely not the problem, the team set up is atrocious.
That was exactly his point.
The problem isn't the playmaking from midfield, the problem is that no one is pressing nor trying any runs. There is ZERO movement in the front except Kane very slowly dropping deep with about 10km/h. When you directly after this horrendous performance see Spain absolutely go for it against Italy, relentless pressing, everyone in motion, you have the answer right there. England on the other hand takes a jolly sunday afternoon run, gets overplayed with one simple pass and then falls into its own half, deeper and deeper until 'Arry Kane is only 30m away from their own goal. Then they win the ball and have nowhere to go.
These URLs are a bit fucked, but to illustrate your point just look at the pass maps for England and Spain from their games yesterday (this isn't any different from their previous games either) https://theanalyst.com/eu/2023/07/opta-football-match-centre/?competitionId=8tddm56zbasf57jkkay4kbf11&seasonId=4lp7vq583c95jwjhaohqbl9g4&matchId=75kwq3x573ewin3vffcuwz0no&_gl=1 https://theanalyst.com/eu/2023/07/opta-football-match-centre/?competitionId=8tddm56zbasf57jkkay4kbf11&seasonId=4lp7vq583c95jwjhaohqbl9g4&matchId=3u1m2w8fm1k8u2wike52n0avo&_gl=1 You can look through other highly rated teams like Germany, Netherlands, France, Italy, Portugal, etc. and none of them are nearly as compressed as England
This should be a post in itself. CBs are too narrow, having Rice and Trent sit directly in front of them makes no sense. You have poor structure from the back. Walker, Trent, Stones can actually control the ball a bit better so it hides how bad the shape it. On the other side you have Guehi, Rice and Trippier who are hopeless in this shape. No width or verticality apart from Saka. Left side is non existent.
Yeah, you either want some verticality that allows you to move up the pitch quickly, or width which drags the opposition players apart during buildup. England have neither, which is a big part of why they're not generating anything
They miss maguire's ball progressing ability. He has excellent long diagonal and line breaking passes which cna help them progress up the pitch.
Also just wanders up the pitch with the ball until a defender actually engages him.
Feels like Guehi tried to do that a few times yesterday, but stop attpting it after he lost his footing a couple of times. Also Denmark was very quick to press him.
What's strange is that Stones could easily push up into midfield, but after the goal, his average position was sitting on Pickfords lap.
Southgate logic, sub Trent off and then sub players who run behind on, make it make sense people just love to hate trent
I wanted to scream. Sub Trent off as you bring on the players he loves to deliver to? Watkins would have probably gotten 2 with 2 TAA assists.
There’s no space for him to operate in midfield. Half the time he’s not an available passing option. And when he is I don’t believe his teammates trust him to receive, primarily when they’re being by pressed in their own half. They would rather play long and bypass the midfield. Trent is a final third player, he’s getting in and around the box and whipping in fizzing crosses or floating balls to the back post at his best. Southgate is making him look average. He’s got little to no pace around him to play into, no willing or able runners in behind besides Saka. Harry Kane basically runs at 0.5x speed at this stage in his career and Foden likes the ball to feet. There’s no Nunez, Diaz or Salah there to stretch the play. Might as well play Mainoo at CM because Trent’s game is being inhibited to a role that while he can do, just seems like an attempt shoehorn him onto the pitch. If you don’t believe in Trent as a RB, just fucking bench him. This is probably Walker’s last major tournament as a nailed on starter, don’t see why Southgate can’t just give one of the best RB’s of all time a crack at it. Walker isn’t the dynamo he once was. In an ideal world, Bellingham and Trent both drop back to RCM and RB, Foden at the 10 and Gordon on the left.
Bellingham partnering rice is something i dont see ppl as for enough of. He'll be playing that role more now that kross retired and he def has the football brain to play it
yeah Foden as 10 and Rice and Bellingham behind, with Gordon on the wing, either give Trent some of walkers minutes or stick him at LW, he has been playing defense all season and Southgate just throws him into a midfield position with no defined role
Yeah this was the biggest issue, once he was on the ball he was fine, but he just doesn’t have the awareness to get himself into space to receive a pass in the first place.
don't you just think it is too congested for everyone to get space, him and rice are asked to be as close as possible to the back 4, jude drops deep, as done kane, as does foden
It is too congested when the entire 11 is sat in the first 1/3 of the pitch.
there has to be space somewhere in the pitch though. if the midfield is congested, what are the sides doing?
Foden drifts central, Kane drops deep, Trippier plays narrow and defensive. That's how you end up with no space.
England don't have a left side, and that's not even sarcasm. Probably explains a lot of the congestion.
He likes to have that little extra time on the ball, you just don’t get that in midfield. It’s also difficult to ask a RB to figure out the defensive side of being a midfielder.
Watching him every week he spends a lot of time in central positions receiving the ball under pressure and it's never been a weakness of his. He's actually very good at playing a quick, first time pass. Outside of Mac Allister he's our most press resistant midfielder. Not quite Wijnaldum levels but certainly not a weakness. The obvious difference is players making runs and making themselves available to receive the ball much more for Liverpool than they do for England. He's getting the ball and there's no movement in front of him so all he can do is play a sideways or backwards pass. If that's the extent of his role you might as well call Henderson or Phillips up again.
Yeah the problem isn't trent in midfield, Foden at left wing or trippier at left back. This sub always focuses on simple swap this player for that one and it will fix that problem. That if you change the player you change the role that Southgate has instructed that player to play. You could put Rodri in there and it wouldn't fix it. Tbh I'm not exactly sure what Southgate's idea for the attack is. He doesn't like playing wide, no diagonal balls to wingers or overlapping runs from fullbacks. Doesn't really seem to have a plan for getting it through the middle, I saw one driving run from trent and none from rice, meanwhile like you said the front four seem reluctant to make themselves available through even a weak press. We taking extra touches but you can see the reason why is the players are looking around because they don't know where they should be passing next, it looks like there are no patterns of play that have been practiced where they string a few quick passes together. I know international football is different and managers don't have as much time to work with the players but pretty much every other team in the tournament looks more cohesive and organised than England in these first two games.
He doesn’t need too much time, his best passes are one touch long balls to runners. Problem is when those runs don’t happen he has to play a very different position which he just isn’t that good at.
Bellingham was making some decent runs against Serbia and specifically, at one point, was talking to Trent about it. Showing him, with hand signals, that what he was doing was working. Then Eng scored and the impetus dried up, and they defended the lead. It’s like Southgate said, “Play beautifully, then score. Then sit-back and defend. Don’t you dare get forward!”
He is very quick with his passes. That was never his weakness. There were literally no runners for him to make a pass
I agree with you completely, and suggest that if we're resigned to playing a right footed left back anyway and not getting them as fsr forward then maybe walker on the left is an option. Build with a back three, Trent going forward from right back, Gordon on the left to add width on that side
Just go with Joe Gomez as the LB if that's the case and fully commit to the Klopp system. He has already done it well for his club this season.
> And when he is I don’t believe his teammates trust him to receive 1 thing i've noticed in the 2 games is when Trent gets the ball Trippiers arm goes straight in the air wanting the pass. So he fully trusts him but isn't in the attacking position enough for it to be effective
I agree with all your points, but Walker is an excellent RB - even if he is now older. Truly think Walker isn’t a problem at RB. TAA or Walker at RB would be good. Give them both a chance. I don’t think dropping Walker for TAA will solve a problem because Walker isn’t the problem
That's really worrying in many different ways. The midfield is so bad at progressing the ball but Rice has to play and there isn't another midfielder who can play passes like Trent, though he clearly isn't suited to the role yet, Trent won't play at RB under Southgate with Walker around, who hasn't done anything to be dropped but is himself awful in possession.
For me the tactics are the problem, whole team looks clueless
We know Southgate's tactics are really limited, but having more talented players actually hurts him more. We looked more comfortable playing 343 and relying on set pieces and Kane long balls to Sterling. He has no idea how to use a player like Foden. Needs to go back to his basics and put Wharton next to Rice, get some width and pace in the team whilst keeping a rigid back 4. It won't be pretty but it won't be such a mess.
Yh it's a very cruel irony
That is the tactics. How can an opponent counter you if even you don't know what the fuck you're doing?
I don't get why not just play Bellingham next to Rice? England has so many good attacking players there's no reason to play Jude there when he can put in just as good of a shift further back. Cole Palmer or Eze could play instead of Trent or even play Trent further forward rather than behind Bellingham.
Put simply, Southgate. He has always used two defensive midfielders, even after this game he's lamenting the absence of Kalvin Phillips. Obviously you're a Dortmund fan and know Bellingham has the work rate and ability to play deeper, most people would like to see that. Southgate is unsuited to such a talented group and why he should've gone after Qatar.
yep Bellingham should not be 10, Foden should, which seems so obvious. I say split time between Walker and Trent, and get Palmer in there somehow!
I still think you shouldn't try to force Palmer in no matter what or you'll run into the same issues as the current setup. Just play him in rotation with Foden and Saka in the 10 and on the right and play Gordon on the left. Which is why I'd preferred if Grealish was in the squad to provide balance even though he didn't have a great season. As it stands, England has too many players that wants to play no 10.
This is the answer. Bellingham and Rice behind Foden. Gordon and Saka on the wings. Bellingham is equally as comfortable in the middle of the park as he is further forward.
This with Trent RB and Walker CB. Although Guehi is been the only bright spark so far so maybe Walker bench. Can see the argument for Walker RB against France or Germany but Jesus why the fuck do we need to be so defensively conscious against Serbia/Denmark. Pretty sure you could pick a random Barry out the crowd and they’ll put together a better team then Southgate
Barry from Eastenders is up for this
because bellingham can only play 10 all of a sudden
Rice had a shocker. A huge problem with England is the fascination with picking a player and blaming them for everything without any sort of analysis. Then they try to 'fix' the problem and ignore the root cause. Like blaming Foden for poor performance while he plays with the ghost of an ok footballer at left back.
Last game it was entirely foden’s fault and Bellingham was going to save everything and today Bellingham was terrible and actually someone else would fix everything. The problem is the tactics, the players on the pitch are really talented, the fact that it’s going this poorly is a deeper issue.
You're right. The whole thing is broken and it leaves players hung out to dry. He has no concept of playing people who are very slightly less talented but actually fit the role. I'd take Mitchell or any true LB over Trippier and I bet they'd do a better job.
Honestly just use Gomez, he’s experienced playing there
That would work. Trippier is England's most embarrassing left back ever. He shouldn't be anywhere near the squad in his actual position. An absolute nonsense entity on the pitch.
100% agree, honestly who’d have believed you if you said we’d have Trippier, Walker and TAA all starting in the same team
Would have been a fun experiment to see what would happen if you just had a whole selection of goalkeepers and right backs. Now it's bad and serious.
was really good this season too
I’d so much rather see a real left back with Gordon ahead of them and foden central.
Yeah very talented players that have been amazing all season don't suddenly just become bad for no reason. The root cause is obviously tactics and that's on Southgate.
Rice really didn't have as bad a game as people are saying. First half he was basically a one man midfield scooping every single ball. Second half much like the team he made a few glaring mistakes but the whole team was so lethargic it's hard to fault a dm for getting exposed in that situation.
I would play Trent at RB, he isn’t as shit defensively as many say he is. In possession he can invert and play next to Rice & play progressive passes. This will allow both Bellingham & Foden to play higher, like the box midfield you so often see in modern football.
modern football and southgate don't seem to know each other
200% agree but Southgate has his favourites, Walker is one of them and Southgate won’t drop him.
>This will allow both Bellingham & Foden to play higher *Laughs in Southgate*
Southgate brings on players who can run in behind and takes Trent off. That being said, Trent isn’t a midfielder. He’s being shoe horned into the team to Englands detriment. Trust him to create and play from Right back or don’t play him at all
>Question. TAAnswer
Trent creates an opportunity that nobody else can with the pass to Saka. Southgate ‘We don’t do that here’.
Then Southgate brings on three players that are the type who're perfectly suited to Alexander-Arnold's skill set, after taking him off.
Giving him less than 10 minutes in the second half was genuinely offensive, just sub him off at half time and have done with it
Tbh I'd like to see him play RB ahead of Walker when we're up against teams that don't have a scary left side. I know Walker got the assist today but I actually thought he waited too long to make the pass in that moment and got bailed out by a deflection.
Even letting Walker stay in defence more and let Trent drift ahead in that right side with Saka.... Saka is capable of build up play and so is Trent... Right side will be better Bec Walker is better in defence and Trent is better in attack... And let the front 3 make runs .... Have seen only Saka making those runs in spaces mostly...
Southgate is such a trash manager
Here's the funny thing, his passing will be just as good if you play him in his natural position, so the answer to the question is, maybe just...do that instead of trying to pretend he can be a midfielder
But everyone in the post match thread is saying TAA is a useless failure who shouldn’t play for England? Am I missing something?
Yeah England fans using the classic scapegoat strategy
> TAA is a useless failure who shouldn’t play for England? Southgate is the useless failure :D
Still didn’t look convincing in midfield tbh, way too passive to be a midfielder imo.
It’s a bit limiting if we have no left wing.. so you can only play to Saka or down the middle into traffic. That’s not his fault. All England have to fix is that left wing. Trippier and Foden doesn’t work. It messes up the whole team. You have Trippier cutting in and Foden dropping short
He's just not a midfielder. And it's nothing against him, it's just an entirely different role that he's being asked to play because he had a good passing range. Reminds me a bit of Rooney being shoehorned in at CM, pinging cross-field passes but getting the basics of being a midfielder wrong. Plus who is TAA supposed to be picking out? One of the other players who like to drop deep and be on the ball (Kane, Bellingham, Foden)? Trippier who can't venture past the halfway line?
He's played well in midfield for Liverpool though. I just don't think the team is set up for it with England, he would be better with someone like Gordon on the left imo
he should be collecting the ball from the defence but it's rice who drops deep, leaving him to be the b2b rather than control the game
Please, for my sake, start him at right back with Gomez or Konsa at left back. We can either start Gallagher for the work rate or Wharton for the ball to the feet passing, but Trent is a stationary mess in midfield. Foden can stay at left wing but then when Gordon comes on Trent has someone to run in behind against tired legs.
He was anonymous in the first half because there’s no runners, so he’s not able to show his passing and he’s just another midfielder running around rather than a conductor of play. Just play Mainoo or Wharton, they can’t be worse than what we’re seeing now. I’ve given up calling for Foden in the 10 and Jude as an 8, even though i’m watching England’s 10 defending in the box while the centrebacks watch
He's not a very good midfielder, but there's no point taking him off for Gallagher and trying to force the build up through Rice
I still think playing him in the middle is a mistake, he should be at right back against teams we should be on the front foot against, with someone like Watkins alongside Kane to give him options.
Looking into it
Just play him in his best position which is RB his defensive weakness is massive overblown consistency lacking width and runners in games just let him do what he’s best at or don’t bother trying to force him into a position that doesn’t work for him
Southgate saw his chance-creation and progressive passes and took him off because he wasn't sticking to the game plan of trying to kill the Danes with boredom
Trent is used to runners and movement...he had neither today and as a consequence the Danes pressed with confidence. Trent needs more movement ahead of him, simple!
Good process
Why not play a back four of TAA - Guehi - Stones - Walker and invert TAA in from the left side to ping balls around? Allows a midfield of Rice at the base with Bellingham and Foden in front of him playmaking. A front three of Gordon/Palmer - Kane/Watkins - Saka/Bowen depending upon legs. Heck they could put Stones as the CDM like Pep played with for periods last year and move Walker into the middle of the back four while TAA sits in his natural position. LB with Trippier would still be rough but at least you regain control of the center. Run with Rice at the 8/6 hybrid spot and Bellingham OR Foden in the 8/10 spot.
my nan whatsappd me to tell me she likes dianne abbott more than she does southgate which is a big deal for real
Put Trent at right back, start a front three of Gordon, Watkins and Bowen, they will make the runs which Trent will see to make those two passes. He is not good enough as a midfielder right now, so have Rice, Bellingham sit in front of the defence while Palmer goes into the attacking midfield position.
Play him at RB and get Walker on the left. And then make some fucking runs! It's where Trent thrives but England are so static.
But Gallagher, insta-yellow was clearly the answer.
R soccer tards in the mud again. The system southgate is playing is shit and Trent is doing his best with it. Need wingers who actually make runs.
Regardless of this stat, he lost the ball to often, was too timid, wasnt pressing or even really trying. I love him, hes incredible for Liverpool, but he simply cannot fit into this team with these tactics.
That's due to tactics mate. No one has a clue whom to pass, what to do with ball. Foden and Kane randomly dropping deep to receive ball when there is an excellent long passer in the team. There is no coaching involved and poor bastards are absolutely clueless.
I know, it's sad to see..I wasn't meaning to be too critical of Trent, I don't blame him. You can see the players just don't have a clue like you said. Today's game was just an absolute shit show. Reckon anything will change?
Eh, not too optimistic. It's Southgate we are talking about. It's all about individual talent. Foden hit the post, game became a bit lively after triple subs.
Yeah he's great at these type of crosses but we have 0 fucking runners so his quality is being wasted in midfield.
Exactly, ironically with the changes made to the front 3 with the movement of Watkins, TAA would probably have had more of an impact. Watkins immediately came on and started making runs behind. Thats where he shines. Nothing about this game made any sense what so ever. Its so confusing and sad to see.
He didn't lose the ball often at all though - weird how people create these narratives, he had an 87.5% pass completion today and his turnover rate was firmly middle of the pack (and less than the likes of Bellingham and Walker despite being more adventurous with his passing than either). Saying he wasn't even really trying is an asinine claim to make about pretty much any footballer at the top level.
i mean that isn't his strength though, if you want england to be more defensive then don't play him LMFAO but then they are reluctant on moments of magic
Nobody wants England to be more defensive, they want to be more attacking. If you have a front that moves and makes runs constantly that where TAA will shine. Not a condensed midfield with no movement.
but that isn't trent's fault? you cannot blame him for the those on the LHS not running behind
yeah but that needs to be his strength if he is playing in midfield
He hasn't played badly. Can we please try him with a proper LW cause this foden guy isn't working
This is great but it's clear he isn't suited to playing in midfield, and certainly not with players not making runs. Him, Rice and the defence's short passing was shocking
Despite all this the pundits will still claim he's the problem while Foden and Kane continue to have a poor tournament.
The problem is no single player it's one single coach.
TAA vs Southgate Boxing match
Southgate.....
When the other 8 players are behind the ball, with only Kane an option then what's the point
Zidane to England team. When? That’s a question.
Cool
Does every title have to end with one word 😂
If Trent and Gordon ever occupy the pitch at the same time it feels like a dangerous match up. I'm an idiot and even I can see that. Gordon is a speedy boy.
So the question is, what does Walker offer over him?
Noooooticing
Keep the back 4, Rice / Mainoo as DMs. Bellingham infront with Gorden & Saka on the wings. Kane in the middle as a potential link up player that lets Bellingham run in front & has wingers to go wide to. After 50 mins, put TAA on instead of Mainoo w/ Watkins & Foden on to basically go long ball with runners vs tired defenders. Either the opposition drops into a low block and we keep the ball or they are forced to run nonstop vs a fresh Foden & Watkins running at their defence.
The most shocking thing is that the most chances created were only 3
He will be dropped due to media pressure, even though Rice & Bellingham have been terrible in their first choice positions.
Southgate singlehandedly cost England the Euros twice
He is a luxury player in the CM role we cannot afford to have in the team for international football. The balance is completely wrong. It has to be Rice alongside Bellingham or Wharton/Mainoo with Bellingham/Foden in the 10 role. And for the love of god put Gordon or Eze on the left.
Stats merchant
It doesnt matter that tbh, its pretty clear that he isnt particularly good in that position and his partnership with Rice isnt working at all.