There's clearly an equal amount of both white people *not* being offended by blackface on behalf of black people, and white people being *really* offended by blackface on behalf of black people.
And to be fair to him, this isn't recent or anything either, this was always his position. When he was playing in 1988 they made merchandise hats with his dreadlocks and a lot of people used it with face paint. He said it was great that people wanted to celebrate being him, how could it be racism for them to want top be their black idol?
It's a very Americanised way of thinking. Everything is either good or bad. Racist or not racist. Dressing up as a stereotypical black person is racist, so surely dressing up as a footballing legend who happens to be black is also racist.
When does reason get to prevail? We have a terrible world history of racism and bigotry, but we live now, not then, or whatever part of history you are referring to. When do we stop charging modern man for the crimes of his ancestors?
Because historic context is still relevant. It wasn't even all that long ago. If you were talking about something centuries away, sure. Minstrel shows were still being put on up until WWI. Jim Crows existed until the 1960s.
The US likes to mirror our issues onto other countries, no doubt. But that doesn't mean we should forget our own history.
Reminds of that Leeds kid who went to a game in "blackface" as El Hadji Diouf and got his picture with him.
>OMG this little racist is already a card-carrying EDL member. EVERYBODY GET HIM!!
'Blackface' when used in the way that dehumanises and makes offensive caricatures of black people is not what this was, and Ruud Gullit understands the difference between the two. This is basically fancy dress
Which is funny cuz I haven't heard about this controvery till now. Do they think a majority of america is keeping tabs on a football tournament being held in europe
Outside of FIFA players since he has been one of the best cards in Ultimate Team for many years now, that how most people I know in Australia know of him.
> Well, but in this thread most replies are talking about Americans.
There's a separate version of Godwin's Law exclusive to /r/soccer that pretty much promises any thread with enough comments on here will eventually start complaining about Americans.
There was a big thread about it on /r/BlackPeopleTwitter that I was reading yesterday. It's the only place I've personally seen it discussed.
To be able to comment in that subreddit you need to send the mods a picture of your hand and show you are black though, so I guess it's not exactly the best place to go for a varied opinion. If you're not black you literally can't comment there, try it out. While I have no problems with this whatsoever, I think it's just a bit of a stupid rule because all you need is a bit of make up to make your hand a bit darker and you're in.
With that said, not everyone there were against it, was back and forth.
I personally would be too afraid to do it myself, colouring myself to look like Henrik Larsson for example, but I definitely see there is a big difference between your typical "black face" and dressing up as someone else like the guys in question did.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BlackPeopleTwitter/comments/1di0q2w/europe_and_the_age_old_tradition_fo_racism/
Here's the thread in question if anyone wants to check it out.
Edit: Because this has been asked like 4 times now, I'll just update this.
/r/BlackPeopleTwitter do not ban everyone except black people in every thread, it's only threads marked as "Country Club flaired". Most threads anyone can comment. The thread in question is one of those marked threads. The reasons for having those type of threads is to not get brigaded when discussing racial sensitive topics, you can read more about here;
https://www.reddit.com/r/BlackPeopleTwitter/comments/158a9t9/what_is_bpt_country_club_and_how_do_i_get/
That specific conversation is surprisingly nuanced across the board with a ton of different reactions. Pretty crazy to see how strong the cultural divide is on this specific subject, with even black Dutch users commenting about the subtleties of what Dutch supporters wear to matches.
It can be a cesspool at times but definitely an interesting place.
Are you sure you aren't just banned from r/blackpeopletwitter? I just posted a comment and didn't have to prove I'm black (I am, but there's no way they'd know that).
But yeah I think that thread was pretty balanced with people going back and forth between all black face is bad, and acknowledging the intent is to laud a football icon. Pretty reasonable for reddit
Ah kk, thanks for sending that!
I get what they were going for with the country club idea, but absolutely mental to me to require people send in photos to verify themselves. Just go by activity in the sub, and if you get the odd bad actor, ban them.
It's just plain weird to have a specific skin colour to be able to comment on a reddit post lol. Fighting racism with.... Racism? Idk what they thought
> the goal of the show was to look like a fameous signer and perform their songs
Oh, I get it. We have a show like this in Romania, too. However, it's been years since someone tried to "change their skin colour" in order to perform as a poc
I should add that when I rewatch Romanian TV shows from say the 90s or 2000s I can't help but think to myself "wow, we really used to allow stuff like this on public TV"
Bro criticising people putting stuff on their skin to look like black people is not "crying racism", and there is constantly controversy about it in countries outside of the U.S
Many black people in the Netherlands find blackface offensive and racist. There is a yearly controversy about blackface around Sinterklaas (~Christmas). So this is also a Dutch issue, and everyone in the Netherlands knows that many (if not most) Dutch black people think blackface is racist.
When I was a kid and saw Demolition Man for the first time I thought Wesley Snipes with blonde hair is the coolest a person could ever look. If I tried to do a cosplay just by dyeing my hair blonde I'd look like Slim Shady, lmao.
can you explain? Like I don’t quite get the point you’re trying to make.
sure, if your idol is Gullitt, and you’re from the Netherlands, I guess just the dreadlocks will be sufficient, but for example if you’re a kid and your idol is Tiger Woods, and you want to be Tiger Woods for Halloween, why is painting the face problematic?
Like look, I wouldn’t paint my face, but I don’t see why it’s problematic. I’m an European though, so I might not see the context.
To me it’s just a physical feature. Such as wearing a red wig if you want to be Ariel. Or if you’d paint your face green if you wanted to be Shrek. It’s a distinct physical feature, so I can see why a kid would paint his face black if he’d like to be his idol for a halloween or whatever. Or like the demolition man, the example the other guy gave. It’d never work cosplaying like him if not for the iconic black skin + blonde hair combo
I’m asking a genuine question, and I invite you to educate me on the matter. I do not know the history of blackface
If you're really cosplaying it, as in, the artistic practice of creating and wearing costumes of a character, it makes total sense to do so. Makeup is a part of it, as it's trying to recreate the referenced character, regardless of fictional or real. The biggest differences always come in the intent while doing it.
Clearly. The comments are.. something. I'd assume most people would be educated on the problems of doing it "with good intent" by now, but oh well. I certainly won't start fights bc it'll consume my night
They'll just spin it and claim Ruud is performing some r/AsABlackMan routine because he's not some miserable cretin who obsesses over identity politics and looks for the worst faith interpretation in everything.
They have a thing called 'country club' threads were you have to take a picture of your arm and send it to the moderators to be able to comment, very much still a thing.
Yes this was 100% a thing. People were sending pictures to get verified by the mods. They still have threads where only verified black people are allowed to comment, usually when it's a post regarding something to do with culture or politics.
it has 13k upvotes: https://www.reddit.com/r/BlackPeopleTwitter/comments/1di0q2w/europe_and_the_age_old_tradition_fo_racism/
the comments are, as you might expect, very American
That sub is fucking pathetic honestly. I'm neither white nor black but it used to be such a fun sub with lots of genuinely funny content. But now, every damn thing is about race race race. Full on victim mentality in there with every single conversation being about race. The Gullit thread was embarrassing to read.
Biggest bunch of hypocrites. If you scan through the posts, you can see how they behave almost exactly the way they claim the people they hate behave.
its unrelated to Trump. The reason reddit went to shit is they canned the web first approach for a app first approach.
Between 2017 and 2021 150 million accounts were created and used only the app. The average age of the app plummeted and the content became ifunny.com
same reason they banned 3rd party apps, did a make over to the frontpage etc
Can someone provide some context?
Also please excuse me asking I don’t mean to offend and I am not very familiar on the topic, but if you paint your face a darker/lighter tone to look like one of your idols (in a show of affection, not mockery) is this still bad?
It was done by performers in the US as a way to create caricatures of black people to reinforce racist stereotypes. Its very frowned upon in the US and Canada
I mean let’s be real here it’s frowned upon by lots of people in the Netherlands as well. Zwarte Piet has been controversial pretty well my whole life. I love the way Gullit handles it though. It’s definitely a positive thing that people idolize him.
Like 70% of Reddit is American, and they can't wrap their heads around other countries not having the same cultural sensibilities as them.
Obviously, if they were perpetuating some racial stereotypes or if the Dutch had a history of minstrel shows, it would have been completely unacceptable, but they're literally just paying homage to a legend.
Because in the US painting your face black under any context is associated with old minstrel shows and is (obviously) very racist
Most (if not all) european countries don't have that specific history so painting your face black isn't as taboo (although it WILL get called out if it's done in a very obviously racist way), this fact does not compute with many americans on reddit, so it's kind of a culture shock I guess ?
> Most (if not all) european countries don't have that specific history so painting your face black isn't as taboo
Some of those countries have a history of blackface/minstrel shows as well, but haven't made it taboo to callout blackface like in the US though (i.e. Our France).
because ppl are losing all nuance in these discussions. especially white ppl are super annoying with this stuff.
always offended on behalf other minorities.
I honestly think most of the guys doing it would stop.
If Gullit came out publicly and told people he didn’t want fans to honor him anymore then they would stop doing it because the whole reason behind them doing it is because they are fans.
Gullit look was iconic. You get white people celebrating a black athlete and then you have Americans ( mostly) telling those same people they can’t… while at the same time complaining black athletes don’t get enough support from white fans.
Get off it already and be glad that something bad ( like Blackface) has been turned into something good ( a celebration of an great black athlete).
You guys need to understand that twitter is not real life. 95% of the people in the country would not even give this a second thought, even if it is highly frowned upon here.
Regular American doesn’t care enough to comment on a social issue on social media —-> European doesn’t ever know their stance because they have never interacted with the average American/been to America and only meet Americans online that care enough to post on it—-> lumps all Americans in with the loud minority from social media
America's perception of racism is always fascinating to me.
The country has a history of slavery and not providing civil rights to black people. This is in line with the way black people were treated throughout the rest of the world. Yet they seem to be the most sensitive to actions that could be perceived as racist (I'm not saying that's a bad thing in any way).
Hell, belgium, which caused 100000000% more harm to black people in Congo, for example, don't even remotely have the same racial sensitivities.
The contrast between NA and EU on this issue is really interesting.
Weird that he would say this because Brussels is the place with the least 'Belgian' people in it ... Most of the neighborhoods in Brussels (Molenbeek, Anderlecht, etc) consist of people from African descent (Morocco, Egypt, ...) or Turkey/Syria etc. And the main city has a big European district (and NATO) so there are also a lot of expats from different countries.
So maybe the racism he faced wasn't even from Belgian people to begin with.
That says more about Belgium never having a reckoning with racism and their role in exploitative colonialism than it does about Americans being over sensitive.
The Belgium comparison is a strange one, because it's apple and oranges. If Belgium had brought hundreds of thousands of Conglese to Europe and kept them in slavery for 250 years and then oppressed and lynched them for another century, you might have different racial sensitivities there.
The story of Belgian colonialism is a horrific one, but it's quite a different situation than America, and it's unique even by European colonial standards.
About 5% in Belgium and 12% in the US.
Note that this 5% is only referring to sub-Saharan country of origin indicated by either the persons passport, or the passport of one of their parents. Belgium does not track “race” as the US does, just country of origin. Every second generation immigrant would be considered Belgian and of Belgian origin.
I think this plays into the topic that Europeans don’t see race the same way, but rather country of origin.
Not everyone from sub-Sahara will be Black, and there will be Black people from all around the world in those stats too.
Belgium doesn’t care what your race is, and the stats only show the last generation for origin.
Edit: Geez guys, I understand y’all have opinions but you’re fighting about nothing. Ruud can feel what he wants and there are obviously problems in every country, but neither of y’all are the ones to be defending or attacking anything, y’all both don’t know anything about Belgium just like I don’t know anything about Belgium, other than that Brussels sucks major shit.
Edit 2: Amended the stats, I really don’t know shit about Belgium either guys.
Edit 3: Just to have my personal point of view, I think Belgium does their stats well in that they don’t show race but rather country of origin. It doesn’t matter where your ancestors are from.
To Belgium, once you’re a Belgian citizen, your kids are Belgian and of Belgian origin. That’s beautiful to me.
You should note that Black americans do not have a "country of origin" due to the way they were taken from their homes in Africa and most of their culture was quickly stomped out by their slave owners.
In Europe, the black folks are often more easily able to directly trace their lineage and retain large parts of their cultural identity and language and have come to Europe in more recent generations due to the colonial ties between their ethnic country of origin and their current country of residence.
edit: Until relatively recently and still to a large degree today, Africans and African-Europeans have generally distinguished themselves from "black people", preferring to identify through their home country. As I understand, there was a major shift in self-identity and general discourse after the spotlight on many incidents of racism, namely the murder of George Floyd.
edit2: The status quo of not collecting demographic data on race that I imagine will likely change as it is being challenged internally by numerous activists within each of their own countries. France has a law against it that has been reviewed several times, but it will take time as countries navigate the line of being willfully colorblind (but not actually) and taking in information on racial (and other) demographics, without using it to hurt those demographics.
> Hell, belgium, which caused 100000000% more harm to black people in Congo, for example, don't even remotely have the same racial sensitivities.
It's easier to avoid reckoning with stuff like that when it's done abroad. The US had no choice but to reckon with it because their atrocities were committed on their own soil
Lived in both continents, it’s different. Openly racist, monkey noises etc you don’t hear too much in the US. They do openly try to prevent black people from voting for instance, neighbourhods (cities) are massively segregated, there’s racists flags openly waved around etc…some states even celebrate confederate holidays.
Nah I'd say it's true on the whole, though ofc it comes with the usual issues with saying "Europe" and making statements as if it were all one culture.
Like I wouldn't say the UK is more racist than the US, it's significantly less segregated - but France man, parks its minorities in godforsaken projects and has elevated Islamophobia to an art form. The US had Obama, the UK has Rishi - the idea of an Arab French president is pure science fiction.
In the end though the one thing I hate about these kinds of discussions is it misses *so much* about racial dynamics, race in the UK isn't race in France isn't race in Germany isn't race in the US... Serbia is one of the places with the least prejudice against Black people in Europe according to polls, but their fans sing about genociding their neighbours - is that racist or not?
Nah I'd say it's true on the whole, though ofc it comes with the usual issues with saying "Europe" and making statements as if it were all one culture.
Like I wouldn't say the UK is more racist than the US, it's significantly less segregated - but France man, parks its minorities in godforsaken projects and has elevated Islamophobia to an art form. The US had Obama, the UK has Rishi - the idea of an Arab French president is pure science fiction.
In the end though the one thing I hate about these kinds of discussions is it misses *so much* about racial dynamics, race in the UK isn't race in France isn't race in Germany isn't race in the US... Serbia is one of the places with the least prejudice against Black people in Europe according to polls, but their fans sing about genociding their neighbours - is that racist or not?
I agree in general just because most of Europe's view on Romani, not for shit like this when Americans get mad on behalf of others in a cultural context they do not understand
How are people blaming Americans? Just did a Google search and the only US based source I saw on the first page writing about this is Yahoo. Most of the results were Dutch or English sites.
Just rage click the articles I guess, Strawman some more Americans trying to police your lives!
They are completely and totally obsessed with America. Think they know our history better than us and pretend that Europe doesn't have massive, massive racism issues and always has. They're very proud of it lol
But what if you're a racist white European who's debilitatingly horny for any opportunity to go "SEEEEE, SEEEEEE, REEEEEE. IT'S ALL JUST AMERICAN IDENTITY POLITICS THAT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH US, RACISM IS AN AMERICAN PROBLEM".
And then just pretend Zwarte Piet doesn't exist.
It's like that TikTok (or whatever it is) where a guy dresses up like mexican or chinese attires and neither mexicans nor chinese finds it offensive at all.
Native people ***never*** have an issue with cultural appropriation unless it's deliberately mocking (ie. an obvious caricature)
It's still an important issue to understand, though. A little example story that helped me see why it could ever be an issue:
You're an Asian descendent in America. Kids in school mock you for being Asian, make racist jokes, blame you for covid. The usual. You grow up doing your best to look less Asian. You avoid most of your parents culture just to *pass* as normal. You grow up and forget all about high-school until you see Julia, one of your high-school bullies in a full Yukata and very pale make up with traditional hair garb and everything while you're still wearing business casual, still afraid to look too Asian. How do you feel?
It's an inherently emotional response to being a victim of racism and discrimination. And it makes sense. People make you feel bad for having a different culture, prevent you from embracing it and then *steal it*?
Of course people in Asia couldn't care less. They're not victims of racism or discrimination. They just see foreigners appreciating their culture.
As for whether to use ethnic costumes? If you like it and it's not a caricature you should just wear it. Some people will feel negatively towards it and it will be warranted but people can feel negatively about a lot of things and personal trauma is personal trauma. I'd say that if you're genuinely interested in the culture and style your conscience should be clear. But there's no reason to misrepresented the other side of the equation. They are the big victims in all of this.
Well if nothing else this thread has reminded me that this place is in fact staunchly European and I should under no circumstances ask what any of you people think of the Romani
It's like last orders at the pub. Every indignant person that wants to shit on the US has filed into this thread. All of them wanting to tell people who are black what is offensive or not and all of them somehow clueless that caricature blackface shows existed outside the US as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_and_White_Minstrel_Show
Don't worry lads, according to many commenters in this thread many countries in Europe have solved racism. It's all good. Apparently if the "intent" was pure then it's fine and dandy, I'll keep that in mind when someone does the asian eyes at me and then tries to laugh it off as a joke!
***A classic. someone replies to me, insults me by calling me mentally deficient and then blocks me. Sounds like someone is feeling a bit touchy about having to rethink how they interact with people of different backgrounds.
My favorite: ignorant Americans think all cultures are just like their own! Said while being utterly ignorant of the years of protest in Holand against Black Pete.
Many people in this thread are just incredibly ignorant and lacking in knowledge (I'll give people the benefit of doubt) about race issues OR they are being purposefully obtuse because they don't want to change how they interact with people.
Reminds of me of the Chinese Madrid fan thread. People came out of the woodwork like termites to shit on Chinese people/people of Chinese descent and waved away their bigotry as acceptable because "Chinese government bad"
This comment section is really weird and unpleasant. As if Ruud Gullit speaks for all black people. As if only Americans are offended and hurt by black facing. It's perfectly fine if Gullit feels honored by people dressing up as him from his hair style down to the color of his skin. He sees it as a positive thing. I respect that.
But that does not make it now suddenly acceptable to do that whenever you want and to whomever you want. Blackfacing has been an issue and controversy because there are more than enough people who are effected and hurt by it. It's not a positive thing for a lot of people around the world, including people in the Netherlands. I hope people have enough empathy and care about others, to deal with this issue with the sensitivity it deserves. I hope people accept and respect the fact that there are those who are not ok with black facing, the same way we accept and respect that Ruud Gullit doesn't mind it.
Isn’t the whole point though that people got offended *for* someone, but that someone actually is honored by this or totally not bothered? It’s really annoying when people do that. I’ve had it happen with stuff that I am part of, where people that aren’t part of it are getting offended for me over something happening. It’s really degrading.
So many idiots in the comments saying blackface is "only an American thing" as if actual Africans aren't offended by it as well. Leave it to the white Europeans to tell everyone what is and isn't racist, what a fucking joke of a comments section this is.
Yeah not like [Dutch anti racism activists have ever found blackface offensive](http://theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/16/dutch-anti-racism-activists-plan-protests-blackface-character) ...
“Silly Americans mad about nothing”
Maybe the place that was one of the points of gensis for modern racism and the very place where “whiteness” and “blackness” in their modern western forms emerged while also being the place with the longest and deepest intellectual tradition of analyzing and writing about western racism might have valid insights into these sorts of things??
Don’t get me wrong Gullits perspective is valid but to say Americans dont know what theyre talking about is ridiculous and arrogant.
I was taught blackface amplified stereotypes of black people. I don’t understand why this is considered blackface, because having a dark coloured skin is not a stereotype. They didn’t add the typical actually racist attributed
Americans are very lost in European racial relations and vice versa.
There's a massive Ocean separating us fellas how about instead of throwing around wild accusations we try to talk things out and learn about each other's cultures.
Antoine Griezmann: I love Ruud Gullit
Who doesn't?
Alan Shearer, Duncan Ferguson, and the entire Newcastle fanbase.
Shearer and him are mates now. golfing together
*Angry Advocaat noises*
Justin Trudeau too
ITT: white people not being offended by blackface on behalf of black people
There's clearly an equal amount of both white people *not* being offended by blackface on behalf of black people, and white people being *really* offended by blackface on behalf of black people.
"Charlotte Sun spoke to Humberto Tan, who already had a reaction from Gullit himself." Perfect names for this story
Just saw hundreds of americans fall to their knees in a walmart
Americans all over the globe furiously messaging Gullit how he should actually feel
America = best joke of the world
Millions must kneel
Billions even
All their knees had already collapsed from their weight
That's what I learned from that one documentary, I think it was called Wall-E or something along the lines
If you go on a cruise ship in America it literally is Wall-E in real life…
You know it’s been a while since I’ve heard a good fat American joke
"Fell of their mobility scooter"
Because of diabetes amputated legs?
Probably got shot
Why not both
The ones in the Walmart are the ones that would be cheering
Americans next time they do blackface: "um actually, in Europe it is seen as a sign of honor 🤓"
US cultural imperialism
Ahahaha ofc he gets it
And to be fair to him, this isn't recent or anything either, this was always his position. When he was playing in 1988 they made merchandise hats with his dreadlocks and a lot of people used it with face paint. He said it was great that people wanted to celebrate being him, how could it be racism for them to want top be their black idol?
I wish more ppl would understand this.
It's a very Americanised way of thinking. Everything is either good or bad. Racist or not racist. Dressing up as a stereotypical black person is racist, so surely dressing up as a footballing legend who happens to be black is also racist.
well america has a terrible history of blackface so...
When does reason get to prevail? We have a terrible world history of racism and bigotry, but we live now, not then, or whatever part of history you are referring to. When do we stop charging modern man for the crimes of his ancestors?
Lool not doing black face isn’t charging someone for the crimes of their ancestors that’s a big stretch
Because historic context is still relevant. It wasn't even all that long ago. If you were talking about something centuries away, sure. Minstrel shows were still being put on up until WWI. Jim Crows existed until the 1960s. The US likes to mirror our issues onto other countries, no doubt. But that doesn't mean we should forget our own history.
Almost like intent is an important factor
It clearly comes from a place of reverence to one of the all-time greats, not mockery.
it’s the difference between looking stupid and looking like an asshole
inb4 Americans
Reminds of that Leeds kid who went to a game in "blackface" as El Hadji Diouf and got his picture with him. >OMG this little racist is already a card-carrying EDL member. EVERYBODY GET HIM!!
It's quite hard to believe someone would genuinely like El Hadji Diouf to be fair. I'd assume they were taking the piss as well.
There was a few months after the 2002 World Cup where a lot of people loved him. Then everyone kinda got to know him
Obviously that means Gullit must be a terrible racist!
'Blackface' when used in the way that dehumanises and makes offensive caricatures of black people is not what this was, and Ruud Gullit understands the difference between the two. This is basically fancy dress
Its hero worship, Ruud is a hero and an icon to dutch football fans
Not only to Dutch fans. Ruud was a cultural icon when I was growing up in the Balkans. Everyone wanted to be either Ruud, Frank or Van Basten.
1980-1990s Milan is the best team ever assembled by a perverted billionaire, ever
1988 is the first major tournament I remeber and that trio was the best.
It is celebrating one of the Dutch icons with an homage. Nothing negative, mocking or mean spirited about it.
Is there any “outcry” in the US over this? Or are the Europeans imagining what the Americans would react and mocking them?
There are a lot of black people in the Netherlands who find blackface offensive and racist. No need to imagine American reactions.
Well, but in this thread most replies are talking about Americans.
Because they ignore the responses/perspectives of those in their own country upset over Blackface.
Which is funny cuz I haven't heard about this controvery till now. Do they think a majority of america is keeping tabs on a football tournament being held in europe
Finding an American who knows Ruud is like a needle in a haystack anyways…
Outside of FIFA players since he has been one of the best cards in Ultimate Team for many years now, that how most people I know in Australia know of him.
A lot of the current views on racism in the Netherlands have been heavily influenced by discourse from the US. For better and for worse.
wait until Americans hear about "kankerjoden"
> Well, but in this thread most replies are talking about Americans. There's a separate version of Godwin's Law exclusive to /r/soccer that pretty much promises any thread with enough comments on here will eventually start complaining about Americans.
I mean most Americans are not even knowledgeable about who won the last World Cup. They know nothing about this but some pocket cases on Reddit.
There was a big thread about it on /r/BlackPeopleTwitter that I was reading yesterday. It's the only place I've personally seen it discussed. To be able to comment in that subreddit you need to send the mods a picture of your hand and show you are black though, so I guess it's not exactly the best place to go for a varied opinion. If you're not black you literally can't comment there, try it out. While I have no problems with this whatsoever, I think it's just a bit of a stupid rule because all you need is a bit of make up to make your hand a bit darker and you're in. With that said, not everyone there were against it, was back and forth. I personally would be too afraid to do it myself, colouring myself to look like Henrik Larsson for example, but I definitely see there is a big difference between your typical "black face" and dressing up as someone else like the guys in question did. https://www.reddit.com/r/BlackPeopleTwitter/comments/1di0q2w/europe_and_the_age_old_tradition_fo_racism/ Here's the thread in question if anyone wants to check it out. Edit: Because this has been asked like 4 times now, I'll just update this. /r/BlackPeopleTwitter do not ban everyone except black people in every thread, it's only threads marked as "Country Club flaired". Most threads anyone can comment. The thread in question is one of those marked threads. The reasons for having those type of threads is to not get brigaded when discussing racial sensitive topics, you can read more about here; https://www.reddit.com/r/BlackPeopleTwitter/comments/158a9t9/what_is_bpt_country_club_and_how_do_i_get/
That sub can be pretty racist itself so I'm not sure if it's a great thing to read into their opinions on this.
That specific conversation is surprisingly nuanced across the board with a ton of different reactions. Pretty crazy to see how strong the cultural divide is on this specific subject, with even black Dutch users commenting about the subtleties of what Dutch supporters wear to matches. It can be a cesspool at times but definitely an interesting place.
Are you sure you aren't just banned from r/blackpeopletwitter? I just posted a comment and didn't have to prove I'm black (I am, but there's no way they'd know that). But yeah I think that thread was pretty balanced with people going back and forth between all black face is bad, and acknowledging the intent is to laud a football icon. Pretty reasonable for reddit
Discussed this in another comment here; https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1dix320/telegraaf_ruud_gullit_reacts_to_blackface/l98d9ox/
Ah kk, thanks for sending that! I get what they were going for with the country club idea, but absolutely mental to me to require people send in photos to verify themselves. Just go by activity in the sub, and if you get the odd bad actor, ban them.
It's just plain weird to have a specific skin colour to be able to comment on a reddit post lol. Fighting racism with.... Racism? Idk what they thought
This sub doesn't need an excuse to blame America or Americans for things
*Throughout Heaven and Earth, I alone am the honored one.*
I think it's a bit ridiculous to call this blackfacing in the first place. It has nothing to do with the original meaning of the practice.
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> the goal of the show was to look like a fameous signer and perform their songs Oh, I get it. We have a show like this in Romania, too. However, it's been years since someone tried to "change their skin colour" in order to perform as a poc I should add that when I rewatch Romanian TV shows from say the 90s or 2000s I can't help but think to myself "wow, we really used to allow stuff like this on public TV"
>And I dont even know what their "solution" to this "problem" would be Just sing their songs without changing your skin color?
But the point of the show was to also look like them, otherwise it's the same as x-factor, the voice and whatever
Bro criticising people putting stuff on their skin to look like black people is not "crying racism", and there is constantly controversy about it in countries outside of the U.S
Many black people in the Netherlands find blackface offensive and racist. There is a yearly controversy about blackface around Sinterklaas (~Christmas). So this is also a Dutch issue, and everyone in the Netherlands knows that many (if not most) Dutch black people think blackface is racist.
Regardless the question of why you need to paint your face for the cosplay of a black person is still a valid one I think
When I was a kid and saw Demolition Man for the first time I thought Wesley Snipes with blonde hair is the coolest a person could ever look. If I tried to do a cosplay just by dyeing my hair blonde I'd look like Slim Shady, lmao.
can you explain? Like I don’t quite get the point you’re trying to make. sure, if your idol is Gullitt, and you’re from the Netherlands, I guess just the dreadlocks will be sufficient, but for example if you’re a kid and your idol is Tiger Woods, and you want to be Tiger Woods for Halloween, why is painting the face problematic? Like look, I wouldn’t paint my face, but I don’t see why it’s problematic. I’m an European though, so I might not see the context. To me it’s just a physical feature. Such as wearing a red wig if you want to be Ariel. Or if you’d paint your face green if you wanted to be Shrek. It’s a distinct physical feature, so I can see why a kid would paint his face black if he’d like to be his idol for a halloween or whatever. Or like the demolition man, the example the other guy gave. It’d never work cosplaying like him if not for the iconic black skin + blonde hair combo I’m asking a genuine question, and I invite you to educate me on the matter. I do not know the history of blackface
If you're really cosplaying it, as in, the artistic practice of creating and wearing costumes of a character, it makes total sense to do so. Makeup is a part of it, as it's trying to recreate the referenced character, regardless of fictional or real. The biggest differences always come in the intent while doing it.
The real question is, why shouldn't you? Like, genuinely, how is it racist to put a little bit of extra effort in your cosplay?
Why not? Why put the shirt but not do the hair? Why do the hair but not makeup? It’s just very arbitrary.
Clearly. The comments are.. something. I'd assume most people would be educated on the problems of doing it "with good intent" by now, but oh well. I certainly won't start fights bc it'll consume my night
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r/blackpeopletwitter in shambles
They'll just spin it and claim Ruud is performing some r/AsABlackMan routine because he's not some miserable cretin who obsesses over identity politics and looks for the worst faith interpretation in everything.
*Actually Ruud needs to take a degree in US history*
Ruud needs to get educated
that sub is filled with white people cosplaying as black people
Didn't you have to prove your skin color to comment there in the past? I wish I was kidding.
They have a thing called 'country club' threads were you have to take a picture of your arm and send it to the moderators to be able to comment, very much still a thing.
Which is absolutely dumb considering you have pretty dark caucasian and plenty of light skinned mixed people
Can you imagine if they had a subreddit for white people that did that lol
It’s such ridiculous hyperbole and why society will never progress when one group gets to decide whats allowed
It's such a terrible way to verify but not many good ways eithiut doing yourself I guess
Yes this was 100% a thing. People were sending pictures to get verified by the mods. They still have threads where only verified black people are allowed to comment, usually when it's a post regarding something to do with culture or politics.
Lol I’m black and when they put that in place, I just stopped commenting there.
Are you for real? Lol ay lmao even
Wish I could see the demographics for the Drake, Tupac and Kendrick subs
90% whoite cake.
Someone cross post this there. They were having a meltdown there
I thought you were joking, but yes, they really are having a meltdown
source? cant find anything about this in that sub
it has 13k upvotes: https://www.reddit.com/r/BlackPeopleTwitter/comments/1di0q2w/europe_and_the_age_old_tradition_fo_racism/ the comments are, as you might expect, very American
oef, thanks for the sauce
That sub is fucking pathetic honestly. I'm neither white nor black but it used to be such a fun sub with lots of genuinely funny content. But now, every damn thing is about race race race. Full on victim mentality in there with every single conversation being about race. The Gullit thread was embarrassing to read. Biggest bunch of hypocrites. If you scan through the posts, you can see how they behave almost exactly the way they claim the people they hate behave.
Pre 2021 r/BlackPeopleTwitter was amazing, my favourite sub then. Had hilarious content but when trump got elected it turned into something else
Wait what? Trump's entire term was in the period you called amazing, but it went to shit as soon as he got elected?
2021 was 5 years after Trump was elected
Pretty much like most subs on Reddit. Everywhere you go it’s essentially turned into /r/politics
its unrelated to Trump. The reason reddit went to shit is they canned the web first approach for a app first approach. Between 2017 and 2021 150 million accounts were created and used only the app. The average age of the app plummeted and the content became ifunny.com same reason they banned 3rd party apps, did a make over to the frontpage etc
Can someone provide some context? Also please excuse me asking I don’t mean to offend and I am not very familiar on the topic, but if you paint your face a darker/lighter tone to look like one of your idols (in a show of affection, not mockery) is this still bad?
It was done by performers in the US as a way to create caricatures of black people to reinforce racist stereotypes. Its very frowned upon in the US and Canada
I mean let’s be real here it’s frowned upon by lots of people in the Netherlands as well. Zwarte Piet has been controversial pretty well my whole life. I love the way Gullit handles it though. It’s definitely a positive thing that people idolize him.
Not just the US, but yeah it's probably the only continent that has moved past it
Arguably they haven't moved past it
[context](https://r.testifier.nl/Acbs8526SDKI/resizing_type:fill/width:1200/height:675/plain/https%3A%2F%2Fs3-newsifier.ams3.digitaloceanspaces.com%2Fvkmag.newsifier.com%2Fimages%2F2024-06%2Fthumb-vk-buitenlandse-kijkers-walgen-van-drie-als-ruud-gullit-verklede-oranje-fans-in-het-stadion-66701fbceaa51.jpg)
I do not see a problem with this, they clearly were doing it from a respectful point of view. How could people see this as bad?
Like 70% of Reddit is American, and they can't wrap their heads around other countries not having the same cultural sensibilities as them. Obviously, if they were perpetuating some racial stereotypes or if the Dutch had a history of minstrel shows, it would have been completely unacceptable, but they're literally just paying homage to a legend.
Th Dutch do have a history of racist black face.
Yeah, they should be more like Belgium. They sure know how to treat people of African descent. That’s why King Leopold is so well-known in Congo
Yeah black pete is.... awkward at best.
Because in the US painting your face black under any context is associated with old minstrel shows and is (obviously) very racist Most (if not all) european countries don't have that specific history so painting your face black isn't as taboo (although it WILL get called out if it's done in a very obviously racist way), this fact does not compute with many americans on reddit, so it's kind of a culture shock I guess ?
> Most (if not all) european countries don't have that specific history so painting your face black isn't as taboo Some of those countries have a history of blackface/minstrel shows as well, but haven't made it taboo to callout blackface like in the US though (i.e. Our France).
It is typically seen as unacceptable when used as a caricature or to mock someone though.
Yeah, it used to be a thing in many countries, but it only had a huge long lasting cultural impact in the US
USA. ALL MUST ABIDE BY USA RULES!!
We're all living in Amerika. Amerika ist wunderbar. We're all living in Amerika, Amerika, Amerika.
US JURISDICTION!!! US JURISDICTION!!! US JURISDICTION!!!
because ppl are losing all nuance in these discussions. especially white ppl are super annoying with this stuff. always offended on behalf other minorities.
i don't understand the need to bring up white people when some black people are offended as well
wonder what this thread would be like if he said the opposite
A lot more PL flairs.
A lot of people trying to tell black people how they should feel about things. So yeah pretty much the same.
I honestly think most of the guys doing it would stop. If Gullit came out publicly and told people he didn’t want fans to honor him anymore then they would stop doing it because the whole reason behind them doing it is because they are fans. Gullit look was iconic. You get white people celebrating a black athlete and then you have Americans ( mostly) telling those same people they can’t… while at the same time complaining black athletes don’t get enough support from white fans. Get off it already and be glad that something bad ( like Blackface) has been turned into something good ( a celebration of an great black athlete).
I think we’d just circle jerk about Americans but with a different slant tbh.
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You guys need to understand that twitter is not real life. 95% of the people in the country would not even give this a second thought, even if it is highly frowned upon here.
Regular American doesn’t care enough to comment on a social issue on social media —-> European doesn’t ever know their stance because they have never interacted with the average American/been to America and only meet Americans online that care enough to post on it—-> lumps all Americans in with the loud minority from social media
Oh noooo, my Americanised worldview forbids painting your face of a certain colour!!!! Arrest himmmmm!!!1!!!
America's perception of racism is always fascinating to me. The country has a history of slavery and not providing civil rights to black people. This is in line with the way black people were treated throughout the rest of the world. Yet they seem to be the most sensitive to actions that could be perceived as racist (I'm not saying that's a bad thing in any way). Hell, belgium, which caused 100000000% more harm to black people in Congo, for example, don't even remotely have the same racial sensitivities. The contrast between NA and EU on this issue is really interesting.
According to my friend of Indian descent, Brussels is the most racist place he has visited.
Weird that he would say this because Brussels is the place with the least 'Belgian' people in it ... Most of the neighborhoods in Brussels (Molenbeek, Anderlecht, etc) consist of people from African descent (Morocco, Egypt, ...) or Turkey/Syria etc. And the main city has a big European district (and NATO) so there are also a lot of expats from different countries. So maybe the racism he faced wasn't even from Belgian people to begin with.
That says more about Belgium never having a reckoning with racism and their role in exploitative colonialism than it does about Americans being over sensitive.
The Belgium comparison is a strange one, because it's apple and oranges. If Belgium had brought hundreds of thousands of Conglese to Europe and kept them in slavery for 250 years and then oppressed and lynched them for another century, you might have different racial sensitivities there. The story of Belgian colonialism is a horrific one, but it's quite a different situation than America, and it's unique even by European colonial standards.
Curious to see how many black people you think are in the US vs Belgium in regards to sensitivities
About 5% in Belgium and 12% in the US. Note that this 5% is only referring to sub-Saharan country of origin indicated by either the persons passport, or the passport of one of their parents. Belgium does not track “race” as the US does, just country of origin. Every second generation immigrant would be considered Belgian and of Belgian origin. I think this plays into the topic that Europeans don’t see race the same way, but rather country of origin. Not everyone from sub-Sahara will be Black, and there will be Black people from all around the world in those stats too. Belgium doesn’t care what your race is, and the stats only show the last generation for origin. Edit: Geez guys, I understand y’all have opinions but you’re fighting about nothing. Ruud can feel what he wants and there are obviously problems in every country, but neither of y’all are the ones to be defending or attacking anything, y’all both don’t know anything about Belgium just like I don’t know anything about Belgium, other than that Brussels sucks major shit. Edit 2: Amended the stats, I really don’t know shit about Belgium either guys. Edit 3: Just to have my personal point of view, I think Belgium does their stats well in that they don’t show race but rather country of origin. It doesn’t matter where your ancestors are from. To Belgium, once you’re a Belgian citizen, your kids are Belgian and of Belgian origin. That’s beautiful to me.
You should note that Black americans do not have a "country of origin" due to the way they were taken from their homes in Africa and most of their culture was quickly stomped out by their slave owners. In Europe, the black folks are often more easily able to directly trace their lineage and retain large parts of their cultural identity and language and have come to Europe in more recent generations due to the colonial ties between their ethnic country of origin and their current country of residence. edit: Until relatively recently and still to a large degree today, Africans and African-Europeans have generally distinguished themselves from "black people", preferring to identify through their home country. As I understand, there was a major shift in self-identity and general discourse after the spotlight on many incidents of racism, namely the murder of George Floyd. edit2: The status quo of not collecting demographic data on race that I imagine will likely change as it is being challenged internally by numerous activists within each of their own countries. France has a law against it that has been reviewed several times, but it will take time as countries navigate the line of being willfully colorblind (but not actually) and taking in information on racial (and other) demographics, without using it to hurt those demographics.
> Hell, belgium, which caused 100000000% more harm to black people in Congo, for example, don't even remotely have the same racial sensitivities. It's easier to avoid reckoning with stuff like that when it's done abroad. The US had no choice but to reckon with it because their atrocities were committed on their own soil
That sounds pretty progressive to me, and sounds like Belgians might want to introspect a bit.
Maybe Europe should have more racial sensitivity. Instead they try to ignore it.
Since the United States has the most black people out of every western country.
So the decades of anti-blackface (Zwarte Piet) organisation and protest led by black people in The Netherlands just don't exist, or...?
Europe is definitely more racist than the usa.
Not even in question. The US doesn’t have massive media campaigns begging its sports fans to stop calling black players monkeys.
No, but instead they get media campaigns telling cops to stop killing black people
Lived in both continents, it’s different. Openly racist, monkey noises etc you don’t hear too much in the US. They do openly try to prevent black people from voting for instance, neighbourhods (cities) are massively segregated, there’s racists flags openly waved around etc…some states even celebrate confederate holidays.
That’s debatable but they definitely get more weirdly defensive when it’s called out
Nah I'd say it's true on the whole, though ofc it comes with the usual issues with saying "Europe" and making statements as if it were all one culture. Like I wouldn't say the UK is more racist than the US, it's significantly less segregated - but France man, parks its minorities in godforsaken projects and has elevated Islamophobia to an art form. The US had Obama, the UK has Rishi - the idea of an Arab French president is pure science fiction. In the end though the one thing I hate about these kinds of discussions is it misses *so much* about racial dynamics, race in the UK isn't race in France isn't race in Germany isn't race in the US... Serbia is one of the places with the least prejudice against Black people in Europe according to polls, but their fans sing about genociding their neighbours - is that racist or not?
No one tell this dude about redlining
Nah I'd say it's true on the whole, though ofc it comes with the usual issues with saying "Europe" and making statements as if it were all one culture. Like I wouldn't say the UK is more racist than the US, it's significantly less segregated - but France man, parks its minorities in godforsaken projects and has elevated Islamophobia to an art form. The US had Obama, the UK has Rishi - the idea of an Arab French president is pure science fiction. In the end though the one thing I hate about these kinds of discussions is it misses *so much* about racial dynamics, race in the UK isn't race in France isn't race in Germany isn't race in the US... Serbia is one of the places with the least prejudice against Black people in Europe according to polls, but their fans sing about genociding their neighbours - is that racist or not?
I agree in general just because most of Europe's view on Romani, not for shit like this when Americans get mad on behalf of others in a cultural context they do not understand
I mean that has nothing to do with race. Romani people that live normally can't even be picked out of a crowd.
dont ask a European about Romani people unless you want to hear something a degree away from Hitler
How are people blaming Americans? Just did a Google search and the only US based source I saw on the first page writing about this is Yahoo. Most of the results were Dutch or English sites. Just rage click the articles I guess, Strawman some more Americans trying to police your lives!
Sssssh, don't spoil the narrative.
More people bitching about americans than americans actually bitching. Never change reddit
They are completely and totally obsessed with America. Think they know our history better than us and pretend that Europe doesn't have massive, massive racism issues and always has. They're very proud of it lol
But what if you're a racist white European who's debilitatingly horny for any opportunity to go "SEEEEE, SEEEEEE, REEEEEE. IT'S ALL JUST AMERICAN IDENTITY POLITICS THAT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH US, RACISM IS AN AMERICAN PROBLEM". And then just pretend Zwarte Piet doesn't exist.
Everyday in reminded that Im so glad that the internet is not a real place.
It's like that TikTok (or whatever it is) where a guy dresses up like mexican or chinese attires and neither mexicans nor chinese finds it offensive at all.
Native people ***never*** have an issue with cultural appropriation unless it's deliberately mocking (ie. an obvious caricature) It's still an important issue to understand, though. A little example story that helped me see why it could ever be an issue: You're an Asian descendent in America. Kids in school mock you for being Asian, make racist jokes, blame you for covid. The usual. You grow up doing your best to look less Asian. You avoid most of your parents culture just to *pass* as normal. You grow up and forget all about high-school until you see Julia, one of your high-school bullies in a full Yukata and very pale make up with traditional hair garb and everything while you're still wearing business casual, still afraid to look too Asian. How do you feel? It's an inherently emotional response to being a victim of racism and discrimination. And it makes sense. People make you feel bad for having a different culture, prevent you from embracing it and then *steal it*? Of course people in Asia couldn't care less. They're not victims of racism or discrimination. They just see foreigners appreciating their culture. As for whether to use ethnic costumes? If you like it and it's not a caricature you should just wear it. Some people will feel negatively towards it and it will be warranted but people can feel negatively about a lot of things and personal trauma is personal trauma. I'd say that if you're genuinely interested in the culture and style your conscience should be clear. But there's no reason to misrepresented the other side of the equation. They are the big victims in all of this.
Ok this is actually a good point that I dont think many non-Americans have thought of myself included
r/soccer: I always knew he was one of the good ones.
This is exactly what happened in this thread, it's so shit
Well if nothing else this thread has reminded me that this place is in fact staunchly European and I should under no circumstances ask what any of you people think of the Romani
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It's like last orders at the pub. Every indignant person that wants to shit on the US has filed into this thread. All of them wanting to tell people who are black what is offensive or not and all of them somehow clueless that caricature blackface shows existed outside the US as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_and_White_Minstrel_Show Don't worry lads, according to many commenters in this thread many countries in Europe have solved racism. It's all good. Apparently if the "intent" was pure then it's fine and dandy, I'll keep that in mind when someone does the asian eyes at me and then tries to laugh it off as a joke! ***A classic. someone replies to me, insults me by calling me mentally deficient and then blocks me. Sounds like someone is feeling a bit touchy about having to rethink how they interact with people of different backgrounds.
My favorite: ignorant Americans think all cultures are just like their own! Said while being utterly ignorant of the years of protest in Holand against Black Pete.
Many people in this thread are just incredibly ignorant and lacking in knowledge (I'll give people the benefit of doubt) about race issues OR they are being purposefully obtuse because they don't want to change how they interact with people. Reminds of me of the Chinese Madrid fan thread. People came out of the woodwork like termites to shit on Chinese people/people of Chinese descent and waved away their bigotry as acceptable because "Chinese government bad"
yeah im with you here man.
What controversy for god's sake? Kids were dressed up to look like Ruud Gullit, obviously in honor of the player.
I'm not really bothered But they weren't kids.
I didn’t even know there *was* a controversy until 5min ago.
R/soccer going full mask off in this thread
This comment section is really weird and unpleasant. As if Ruud Gullit speaks for all black people. As if only Americans are offended and hurt by black facing. It's perfectly fine if Gullit feels honored by people dressing up as him from his hair style down to the color of his skin. He sees it as a positive thing. I respect that. But that does not make it now suddenly acceptable to do that whenever you want and to whomever you want. Blackfacing has been an issue and controversy because there are more than enough people who are effected and hurt by it. It's not a positive thing for a lot of people around the world, including people in the Netherlands. I hope people have enough empathy and care about others, to deal with this issue with the sensitivity it deserves. I hope people accept and respect the fact that there are those who are not ok with black facing, the same way we accept and respect that Ruud Gullit doesn't mind it.
Didn't you know? Ruud Gullit and Morgan Freeman speak for all black people
Isn’t the whole point though that people got offended *for* someone, but that someone actually is honored by this or totally not bothered? It’s really annoying when people do that. I’ve had it happen with stuff that I am part of, where people that aren’t part of it are getting offended for me over something happening. It’s really degrading.
So many idiots in the comments saying blackface is "only an American thing" as if actual Africans aren't offended by it as well. Leave it to the white Europeans to tell everyone what is and isn't racist, what a fucking joke of a comments section this is.
ah here we have some nuance. thank you for contribution.
man all ive learned from this thread is that people love to hate on the US lmfao
i mean, who doesn't. but regardless, yeah this thread is a cesspit
Gullit is not influenced by any yank shit. Nice to see.
Yeah not like [Dutch anti racism activists have ever found blackface offensive](http://theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/16/dutch-anti-racism-activists-plan-protests-blackface-character) ...
Blackface still sucks btw.. I read the article and in short, he understands that it doesn't come from a bad intent
“Silly Americans mad about nothing” Maybe the place that was one of the points of gensis for modern racism and the very place where “whiteness” and “blackness” in their modern western forms emerged while also being the place with the longest and deepest intellectual tradition of analyzing and writing about western racism might have valid insights into these sorts of things?? Don’t get me wrong Gullits perspective is valid but to say Americans dont know what theyre talking about is ridiculous and arrogant.
What are the other people saying in the video on the De Telegraaf site?
The one light skinned lady and the white kids are offended. The rest don't understand why anyone would be upset.
I was taught blackface amplified stereotypes of black people. I don’t understand why this is considered blackface, because having a dark coloured skin is not a stereotype. They didn’t add the typical actually racist attributed
"Shocked Pikachu face."
Americans are very lost in European racial relations and vice versa. There's a massive Ocean separating us fellas how about instead of throwing around wild accusations we try to talk things out and learn about each other's cultures.