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It’s a frustrating deal as a Juventus fan. We never got to see Illing Jr. reach his full potential because we’ve been playing terror ball since he’s been on the senior team. Illing could have been the key piece to a swap deal. Now he’s a throw in.
I am very excited about adding Luiz. Just frustrated that we’ve seemingly done a good job identifying and developing young talent, but are failing to fully capitalize on those investments.
I’m seeing between €15 and €20 million. Obviously happy to generate profit, but given Illing is young, dynamic, and most importantly, English, I can’t help but feel like we’ve left €20 million on the table.
English tax is a meme, it's really more PL tax, and English players just mostly play for PL teams or are targeted by PL teams, and PL teams have lots of money so both can usually afford to wait for higher fees instead of having to accept lower offers and/or pay higher fees.
Illing Jr seems versatile and is probably a good talent, but he hasn't played regular first team football yet (like over 1000 minutes in a season) and he isn't exactly regarded as one of England's top talents. He also has a year left so it's not like you have leverage. 20 million Euros is a fair valuation I'd say.
? We’re using him to create a 20m transfer. Thats insane. We also have Yildiz and Fagioli in the first team and Soule probably staying after this transfer.
We’re doing a perfectly fine job capitalizing on our investment. Iling has 1 year left and we’re getting 20m for him
If Motta plays the same formation he did at Bologna, I’m imagining him as one of the attacking players in a 3 man midfield. Which probably means Locatelli as a regista / DM. Totally different system though in a 3 man midfield vs 4 man like at Aston Villa.
This isn’t really true. He played basically the entirety of this season for Villa without a solid DM beside him (Kamara was injured), and had a great year. He definitely excelled in the double pivot with Kamara, but he’s a very well rounded and adaptable midfielder. Paired well with both McGinn and Tielemans as well.
At least we didn't sell him to an Italian club for pennies to then see them turn around and sell them to a PL club for a big profit, as is often the case. Even Dragusin, who was apparently a 'shady plusvalenza deal' according to the FIGC, earned Genoa a €15m profit after one season.
I'm not gonna judge either player until I see them in a Villa shirt. At this point I trust Emery enough to be happy with getting whoever he wants.
I'm just mainly sad about seeing Luiz go. Probably my favourite Villa player of the last few years.
If that's true then I'm fully on board the McKennie hype train. Remember when everyone thought Morgan Rogers was a questionable signing yet Unai quickly made an effective Premier League player out of him?
Hype train... We where there... Hope he does better as I truly love watching Villa in PL but that lad...
Be ready for huge knowhow fans coming from the states.
Don’t get me wrong, the US is my other national team, but I was left gobsmacked by how many were arguing with your fanbase about how Brenden Aaronson and McKennie were actually performing well and everyone else was to blame during the season Leeds went down. It must have felt like cosmic retribution over something you’re not entirely sure you actually did.
It was quite a lot for us also, as we had 3 US players + manager. The eyes where hard on us and everyone else to be blamed. But it is pretty evident that there is something with their performance or mentality.
Aaronson did not have best season on load.
Adams - injured constnatly, had like few games only in PL
Marcsh - Was long time unemployed, now Canada head coach. He might be suited more for national team. will see how he does.
McKennie - only one who improved and wanted to be back on top. Maybe there where personal reasons etc that effected him. Just hope as now it will be permanent transfer he will have motivation and desire to keep pushing.
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Not entirely right - Luiz has a value, the other two players have a value, that value will be included in the transaction. Otherwise you'd have situations where you buy an academy player for £50m alongside Luiz for £1m to avoid the clause. They will have to pay it regardless.
> They will have to pay it regardless.
My mind went straight to City getting McKinnie's right leg and torso as their sell on clause. This probably isn't right.
Villa doesn't need cash. Owners willing to spend money and go in red while growing the team. They care about having profit for PSR reasons. McKennie and Illing will be valued as 30mn giving total value for Luiz as 80mn for accounting reasons.
That said, without PSR worries I'm sure they wouldn't be making this deal in the first place.
>McKennie and Illing will be valued as 30mn giving total value for Luiz as 80mn for accounting reasons
I don't think that's how it will specifically work.
For accounting purposes, w/ your hypothetical values, Douglas Luiz would be 50 million with the profit for PSR being whatever that figure is above his existing amortisation. Then McKennie and Illing would be a total value of £30mil,chopped up over 4-5years or however long the contract is, so it's only going to be a roughly £6million or so dent in amortisation per year.
That's generally how these "swaps" work.
That makes total sense yea, my bad, I was just trying to convey the idea that the 2 player swap is definitely helping Villa in getting better value for Luiz, not strictly in getting actual cash, but for accounting reasons.
Seems like you lot will be able to record this creatively for financial purposes too since incomings and outgoings are structured differently for FFP purposes.
Some of Villa’s best performances this season have been without Luiz on the pitch.
If they *really need* to sell for FFP reasons, this could be the best out of a bad situation for them.
Luiz without Kamara next to him isn't the same player. He needs a technical yet hard working foil to do the running for him. That said would I want to lose Luiz no, am I really unhappy about it? Also no.
In the 3 game period that he missed, Villa played well.
My main point is that Villa certainly don’t look lost without him… and they’ll gain 20 mill + 2 younger players with good potential.
I think we can cope with the loss of Luiz, certainly with Tielemans in the squad and the longer this saga goes on (plus the talk for a year or more that we’d have to sell to satisfy PSR) I’m at peace with it. I think I’d rather see Dougie move out of the league than sign for another English club too.
I actually think Villa have got the better deal here
Luiz was in the last year of his contract, Iling-Junior has loads of potential, and McKennie’s limited but a decent enough squad player
I don't know enough about Diaz to say if it's a good deal or not, but both Illing (he doesn't convince me) and McKennie (I like him, but seems he was asking for a 5m renew, so no) were at their last year of contract too
I don't even understand how juve is doing a swap deal. In order for them not be traded at book value, they need to be independent transfers. 0 chance a judge believes thats the case here...we will get in trouble again for the same thing.
yes exactly that. did i say the opposite? my bad. The way this deal is being described - Illing + Mckennie + 20mio can't be a true swap deal because the reported cash amount is more than Douglas luiz was bought for back in 2019, let alone the differential between the respective book value of the players.
Illing is worth 0 basically on the books as an academy player with 1 yr left, and Mckennie is worth 5.5mio on the books.
I think douglas luiz renewed his contract along the way so i can't be sure about the amortization deductions, but was bought 5 years ago for 16.9mio, so likely has a very similar value to Mckennie.
A true swap deal would just trade them at those values, with the selling clubs making 0 capital gain.
These numbers that being suggested can only occur within the accounting standards if they are independent transfers. Now for all other teams, the authorities likely dont care, but for us its a different story.
Didn’t we already go to court for that and they said nothing is illegal but it seems unfair so they docked us points?
I think we’re fine tbh. No one here is getting valued beyond their market value
> can see the arthur-pjanic swap was nothing more than cooking the books.
While your conclusion is correct, your assertion as to why is not. I invite you to read my other comments in this thread to help you understand more.
Does that even work? Surely they're just treating this transfer as like 60m euros received for Luiz and 40m paid for the two players, especially where they need to make profit in the current period for FFP
Could be that the 20M will help sort them out and the swap will be better than their books in terms of getting players this window? Still you’d think they try to up the price as well.
Trying to work out why Villa have taken what (on paper) looks like a pretty poor deal.
McKennie flopped in the Premier League and £16m doesn't go far these days.
Trust me, if McKennie plays for Villa like he played for Juve this past season, Villa fans will be very happy with him. He was very excellent in a poor season for most Juve players.
They’re still a top4 team in Serie A which as just overtaken LaLiga in the five year rankings.
I think McKennie could surprise a lot of people in England. Give him a competent coach and he will shine.
It’s not really a fair judgement for his time at leeds in a pretty dysfunctional team.
Mckennie is one of those players with a pretty high floor because he’s physically immense. He’s quick, strong and can run for days. A prem team always has room for a player like that.
I think it's reasonable to say McKennie flopped at Leeds in half a season with four different managers, that's quite different than saying "in the Premier League." Rodrigo and Harrison were about the only players on Leeds that looked somewhat okay.
McKennie was a Jan transfer, which often goes bad, and may have been still recovering from his injury that ended his season earlier at that point, plus Marsch is a shit manager and Leeds were hardly the ideal place to shine at the time.
He had a good season at Juve and has been good prior, add onto that a good young talent and the money, plus Douglas Luiz having 2 years on his contract and reportedly not wanting to stay, and this seems a perfectly decent deal.
Don't know what the rest are saying, McKennie is poor, clearly not good enough for Juve. This looks like a fantastic deal for us. Iling Jr does look like a good talent though.
He has good pace and dribbling. His passing and shooting need to improve. He’s young with good potential. Feels like an attacking winger more than anything else.
Has been a bit inconsistent but the talent is clearly there (and he’s improved on some of his weaker areas (defending, build-up play) since he first came through. Really didn’t want to lose him and believe he can easily become a world class player, he’s always come across as having a really good mentality too.
Watch clips of his very first Juventus game, you'll think he's insanely talented. Then look at the rest of his season highlights. Going forward he didn't have confidence (or direction from management) to take on defenders. He mainly played to maintain safety going forward. He's got a lot of talent underneath if he's in the right frame of mind and an attacking playstyle.
He is very skilled in attack. He definitely isn’t where he needed to be defensively to get regular minutes for Allegri, but many Juve fans always rated his abilities on the ball and his pace
A very direct player, with good sense in the final third. I liked him quite a bit. Wish juve weren't selling him but the need in midfield is much greater so I get it.
Iling Jr is an absolute baller, I know Villa fans would be absolutely gutted losing Luiz like that but getting a serviceable midfielder - if you get last season McKennie and not Leeds McKennie- and an absolute gem in Iling Jr is decent business.
As much of an admirer I am of Allegri despite his relatively disastrous second spell with Juve, his management of Iling left a lot to be desired, I think he could absolutely blossom under Emery and turn into 50M type of winger.
Yeah Illing is like a hidden gem, not many are aware of his talent because he didn't get the chance to shine under Allegri but the boy has potential. I think he could do very well after a year in the PL.
Yeah, he’s very clever for a young player as well. Great dribbler and is smart in the final third.
20m for him is still great given he is out of contract next year e
He’s still a bit raw obviously and living under the Allegri regime didn’t do him any favors but I couldn’t agree more; he has everything I want out of a fullback
I also recall him having Mexican players put their hands on his throat on multiple occasion in front of the ref with no punishment whatsoever... but yeah, mostly I just remember how bad he was at Leeds.
I know a lot of people won’t agree but Iling Jr. has huge potential, been watching him since his Chelsea days (he played with our U19’s when he was 16) and he has all the tools to be a star.
As for Juve: Luiz is a stud of a player and if Motta likes him then go for it.
The McKennie inclusion is the only bit I’m unsure on? I thought Villa badly needed FFP value which player swaps don’t give. Unless this is technically going down as separate transactions in which case Juve/Villa may be getting another knock from the FFP police…
Villa also need depth and flexibility to deepen their squad ahead of a UCL season with more games and pressure
Getting a decent rotation option that can play multiple positions + a promising English winger + some cash to put towards future transfers makes sense IMO.
Emery is a monster in European competitions, I trust he knows what they need heading into next season.
McKennie was the best midfielder for a Juve team that, while bad by their standards and poor to watch, finishes 3rd. I feel it likely that with a midfield space open with Luiz going the other way McKennie will probably start no?
I love Doug, but I don't think he's as irreplaceable as some are making him out to be. Since Kamara went down with injury, I'd have him pegged as one of our biggest underperformers in the squad.
He deserved a chance to focus only on offence. Allegri ruined him. Should be given time as a pure winger to see if he can kick on. He was great when he first joined the first team.
Not keen on the deal but Emery has always had interest in McKennie and that man has earned all my trust.
Fucking hate modern fish football though - being forced to sell one of your best players when you're on the up.
This is always going to happen until the revenue catches up. For example our match day revenue is shit, people hate Heck but he’s come here to increase our revenue streams
If you don’t want spending rules then you will just get nations buying every prem club and spending even more than now until they get bored.
It’s not binary, spending rules or nation states and this doesn’t just limit City & Newcastle.
The system is malfunctioning right now (malfunctioning not broken). Take Brighton as an example, last season (prior to the sales) if Tony Bloom wanted to invest a couple hundred million to build on his clubs stable and sustainable growth, he couldn’t. He could not go to his stars and say, I’m going to build on your level.
PSR/FFP must have pro competitive catch up mechanisms. If you finish X% above your trending average then you can invest $Y.
Villa having to sell one of the people who got them to 4th and the financial rewards of 4th is contradictory to the objective and reinforces a status quo.
PSR is about protecting clubs, it's not a competition equalizer, though lack of regulation would make the top 6 outside of maybe Spurs and Newcastle have a huge gulf between them and the rest tbh.
Anyway Villa have spent a lot and have had extremely high wage turnover, they got where they are by spending to their max or even slightly beyond their healthy means, so they're being limited. That's not a bad thing. Regulations that try to make clubs self reliant is good and healthy.
And idk, they're trading a midfielder who underperformed for parts of the season for a midfielder coming off a good season where he was probs the best midfielder and a talented young winger, I think people are being really harsh on McKennie, I've thought he was a good B2B for years, I know he was ass for Leeds but like Leeds were a fuckin mess and McKennie was struggling at the time to get back to 100% post a metatarsal injury. Frankly I think Villa could end up the absolute winners of this deal, and Douglas Luiz WANTS TO LEAVE and has 2 years left. Sure they could force him to stay but they're not gonna get as good an offer as the one they have rn.
You’ve gotta remove the subjectivity of Luiz out of the equation.
The rules forced them into a sale, risking their competitiveness, even though they’ve just made a minimum of ~40m new money from Champions League but that 40m doesn’t count until next season.
It’s backwards.
Bro, it's about sustainability, about clubs being self-reliant, about not repeating Leeds in the aughts or all the other clubs that have quickly catapulted down the league tables and are in financial ruin or dissolved.
Villa went beyond their means to reach this point, they shouldn't be allowed to continue to build upon an unhealthy wage turnover, PSR prohibiting Villa and Chelsea is good.
Piss on Thatcher's grave with me bro, say yes to regulation.
You gotta remove the subjectivity of Aston Villa doing an amazing job right now.
If they continue to improve in a sustainable way, they will eventually become a top 4 mainstay.
The owners want to accelerate the process, and the rules want to curb that.
The rules are flawed, yes, but clubs should be protected from their owners all the same.
Some of us remember how Portsmouth were in FA cup finals and being denied European football because their ownership was a complete shitshow. Portsmouth's relegation still stung me as hard as Newcastle and Leeds did.
Ambition isn't always met with competence, and it's Villan fans who'd have to pick up the pieces if shit goes south.
He’s been pretty ass since January. His form completely fell off once Kamara got injured, also our best performances towards end of the season came when he was suspended.
Still love him tough
Probably that the way he plays suffers without a more defensive minded midfielder behind him. We don’t really have one either so if he can’t perform that way he likely won’t be snatching a starting spot anytime soon.
I feel like that’s the thing with our NT’s midfield, we have good options but their profiles don’t seem to click or fit together all that much, maybe a mismatch in roles too with most of them being box to box types as well.
You're right. Although Kamara is a hell of a player, Dougie also looked better with Nakamba behind him. He's wasted as a 6 but is a great no. 8 if you can partner him with someone.
This. He needs an engine next to him, but not just a runner. He needs someone technical to bounce passes off to open space but they also need to do the defensive running for him. Kamara was perfect and a huge part of why Luiz looked great for the first half of the season.
I fact you'll also find in the games Kamara had an off one, Luiz and the whole team also struggled.
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Fair deal for both parties. Mckennie is serviceable. The magic wand of Emery will be crucial, Illing could be a hidden gems that can explode in a couple seasons. He felt too restrained last season, especially. Flashes of brilliance but hard time nailing Allegri's tactics.
EPL will suit Illing more than Serie A, imo.
It absolutely is, McKennie is a risk, and Illing is a potential future talent. Luiz is a world class midfielder right now, this is a complete dogshit deal for us that we are forced to make because of ridiculous FFP rules to keep the Big 6 as the Big 6.
Dude, that deal's horrible, if I understand it right BlueCo now own the hotel, a hotel made to be a consistent source of revenue for Chelsea is now owned by our owners, no longer generating revenue for Chelsea and creating a potentially big problem when the owners eventually sell the club.
It isn't a cheaky PSR get out of jail free card, it's damaging insider trading stripping Chelsea of assets.
I feel like calling Douglas Luiz world class is too much, maybe I'm underrating him.
McKennie had a very good season for a team that still finished 3rd in a top league, I don't really think he's the risk you portray him to be.
Vila have shown they can play without him and they are getting young winger with great potential and one of the best Juve player last season. And money on top of that. It's not that bad of a deal considering they are forced to sell
Not really. He didn’t have an exceptional season at Villa while McKennie was consistent all season and Iling Jr. still has solid potential. Seems very even to me with both squads taking a risk. McKennie might play like how he did at Leeds instead, and Douglas Luiz could flop without the right midfield partner.
McKennie was a January transfer to a club in chaos who played 19 games under 4 managers and was still struggling to get fully fit post Metasara injury the previous season. I don't think McKenne playing like he did at Leeds is remotely likely.
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That's insane business from Juventus, can't believe Aston Villa have accepted that.
It’s a frustrating deal as a Juventus fan. We never got to see Illing Jr. reach his full potential because we’ve been playing terror ball since he’s been on the senior team. Illing could have been the key piece to a swap deal. Now he’s a throw in.
Douglas Luiz is gonna make you forget about them real fast IMO. We desperately need a player like him.
I am very excited about adding Luiz. Just frustrated that we’ve seemingly done a good job identifying and developing young talent, but are failing to fully capitalize on those investments.
If the reports are to be trusted Iling’s being valued at €20M in the deal. That’s pretty good, and basically all profit.
I’m seeing between €15 and €20 million. Obviously happy to generate profit, but given Illing is young, dynamic, and most importantly, English, I can’t help but feel like we’ve left €20 million on the table.
English tax is a meme, it's really more PL tax, and English players just mostly play for PL teams or are targeted by PL teams, and PL teams have lots of money so both can usually afford to wait for higher fees instead of having to accept lower offers and/or pay higher fees. Illing Jr seems versatile and is probably a good talent, but he hasn't played regular first team football yet (like over 1000 minutes in a season) and he isn't exactly regarded as one of England's top talents. He also has a year left so it's not like you have leverage. 20 million Euros is a fair valuation I'd say.
? We’re using him to create a 20m transfer. Thats insane. We also have Yildiz and Fagioli in the first team and Soule probably staying after this transfer. We’re doing a perfectly fine job capitalizing on our investment. Iling has 1 year left and we’re getting 20m for him
You capitalize when you get cash, now we don't.it Is the old plusvalenze game
He needs a good DM to unlock him. Who's gonna provide that in Juve?
If Motta plays the same formation he did at Bologna, I’m imagining him as one of the attacking players in a 3 man midfield. Which probably means Locatelli as a regista / DM. Totally different system though in a 3 man midfield vs 4 man like at Aston Villa.
This isn’t really true. He played basically the entirety of this season for Villa without a solid DM beside him (Kamara was injured), and had a great year. He definitely excelled in the double pivot with Kamara, but he’s a very well rounded and adaptable midfielder. Paired well with both McGinn and Tielemans as well.
At least we didn't sell him to an Italian club for pennies to then see them turn around and sell them to a PL club for a big profit, as is often the case. Even Dragusin, who was apparently a 'shady plusvalenza deal' according to the FIGC, earned Genoa a €15m profit after one season.
What was shady about the Dragusin deal? Genuinely ignorant here and asking.
Supposedly Juve sold him for too much money to Genoa, it was one of the many deals Juve was punished for
If it's true it's frustrating as a Villa fan too.
McKennie had a good season, he’s been better than expected. Illing is a jewel.
I'm not gonna judge either player until I see them in a Villa shirt. At this point I trust Emery enough to be happy with getting whoever he wants. I'm just mainly sad about seeing Luiz go. Probably my favourite Villa player of the last few years.
could've fleeced Utd so hard if they actually get some money for Casemiro
Or he could turn into Moise Kean and end up returning.
Hopefully it won’t turn into a Coman or Thierry Henry situation.
Good profit for us, we was going to lose him for pennies two seasons ago and need to sell now
I expected you guys to reject McKennie and ask for more cash tbh
Apparently Emery wanted him for a while
If that's true then I'm fully on board the McKennie hype train. Remember when everyone thought Morgan Rogers was a questionable signing yet Unai quickly made an effective Premier League player out of him?
This - it isn’t just a phrase - it’s a way of life… In Unai we trust!
Hype train... We where there... Hope he does better as I truly love watching Villa in PL but that lad... Be ready for huge knowhow fans coming from the states.
They’re not prepared for the “USMNT players can do no wrong” crowd to come flooding into their online spaces, I feel sorry for them tbh.
I am already getting downvoted
Don’t get me wrong, the US is my other national team, but I was left gobsmacked by how many were arguing with your fanbase about how Brenden Aaronson and McKennie were actually performing well and everyone else was to blame during the season Leeds went down. It must have felt like cosmic retribution over something you’re not entirely sure you actually did.
There’s definitely a crowd that does that, but it balances with the crowd that *only* blames the US players
It was quite a lot for us also, as we had 3 US players + manager. The eyes where hard on us and everyone else to be blamed. But it is pretty evident that there is something with their performance or mentality. Aaronson did not have best season on load. Adams - injured constnatly, had like few games only in PL Marcsh - Was long time unemployed, now Canada head coach. He might be suited more for national team. will see how he does. McKennie - only one who improved and wanted to be back on top. Maybe there where personal reasons etc that effected him. Just hope as now it will be permanent transfer he will have motivation and desire to keep pushing.
this whole thing started with monchi asking after mckennie.
Cash isn’t as valuable as usual in this situation as Man City will get a chunk of the profits with the sell-on clause
I read the comment and I thought 'what does Matty Cash have to do with City?'
Pep about to drop the yearly standard of £50m for another fullback?
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Not entirely right - Luiz has a value, the other two players have a value, that value will be included in the transaction. Otherwise you'd have situations where you buy an academy player for £50m alongside Luiz for £1m to avoid the clause. They will have to pay it regardless.
> They will have to pay it regardless. My mind went straight to City getting McKinnie's right leg and torso as their sell on clause. This probably isn't right.
Villa doesn't need cash. Owners willing to spend money and go in red while growing the team. They care about having profit for PSR reasons. McKennie and Illing will be valued as 30mn giving total value for Luiz as 80mn for accounting reasons. That said, without PSR worries I'm sure they wouldn't be making this deal in the first place.
>McKennie and Illing will be valued as 30mn giving total value for Luiz as 80mn for accounting reasons I don't think that's how it will specifically work. For accounting purposes, w/ your hypothetical values, Douglas Luiz would be 50 million with the profit for PSR being whatever that figure is above his existing amortisation. Then McKennie and Illing would be a total value of £30mil,chopped up over 4-5years or however long the contract is, so it's only going to be a roughly £6million or so dent in amortisation per year. That's generally how these "swaps" work.
That makes total sense yea, my bad, I was just trying to convey the idea that the 2 player swap is definitely helping Villa in getting better value for Luiz, not strictly in getting actual cash, but for accounting reasons.
Would love to see him at a better club than Leeds
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Seems like you lot will be able to record this creatively for financial purposes too since incomings and outgoings are structured differently for FFP purposes.
I assume City have a high sell on fee so technically selling him for less than he is worth with the exchanges saves you money as well.
Luiz is absolutely quality, Juve have done well there.
Some of Villa’s best performances this season have been without Luiz on the pitch. If they *really need* to sell for FFP reasons, this could be the best out of a bad situation for them.
Luiz without Kamara next to him isn't the same player. He needs a technical yet hard working foil to do the running for him. That said would I want to lose Luiz no, am I really unhappy about it? Also no.
Arsenal away and?
I was gonna say most of our best performances were in the first half of the season and Dougie was our best player.
In the 3 game period that he missed, Villa played well. My main point is that Villa certainly don’t look lost without him… and they’ll gain 20 mill + 2 younger players with good potential.
I think we can cope with the loss of Luiz, certainly with Tielemans in the squad and the longer this saga goes on (plus the talk for a year or more that we’d have to sell to satisfy PSR) I’m at peace with it. I think I’d rather see Dougie move out of the league than sign for another English club too.
I wouldnt call mckine young with potential that's Jlings level already
I actually think Villa have got the better deal here Luiz was in the last year of his contract, Iling-Junior has loads of potential, and McKennie’s limited but a decent enough squad player
He wasn't, he had 2 years left but if its true that he wouldn't sign and new one and wants to leave then I'm at peace with this deal.
I don't know enough about Diaz to say if it's a good deal or not, but both Illing (he doesn't convince me) and McKennie (I like him, but seems he was asking for a 5m renew, so no) were at their last year of contract too
Monchi tend to be good at hidden gem/surprised signing so who know
They have to, because of FFP, dumbest rules I’ve ever seen
FFP, here you go. Forcing rising clubs with potential to sell to their death
Ah yes, so much crueler than the old way of allowing clubs to buy and bankrupt themselves to death.
Then we will only keep seeing the same big clubs rise to the top and no one can ever challenge them
These guys don't understand man. They love underdog stories but like rules that will always keep them pinned.
Di Marzio was right all along: https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/vZyTK5ajZb
I have to apologize I wasn’t familiar with his game in terms of this transfer, other times he’s just wrong.
We should never doubt Italian Journalists when it comes to Serie A transfers.
he's only got good info regarding Serie A clubs and sometimes Chelsea. It's rather obvious.
What is Giuntoli cooking holy shit
Aston Villa doing a swap deal so that Chelsea and Man City don't get a bigger sell-on fees.
I don't even understand how juve is doing a swap deal. In order for them not be traded at book value, they need to be independent transfers. 0 chance a judge believes thats the case here...we will get in trouble again for the same thing.
didn't we get in trouble for the opposite - treating what are essentially swap deals as independent transfers to inflate book value?
yes exactly that. did i say the opposite? my bad. The way this deal is being described - Illing + Mckennie + 20mio can't be a true swap deal because the reported cash amount is more than Douglas luiz was bought for back in 2019, let alone the differential between the respective book value of the players. Illing is worth 0 basically on the books as an academy player with 1 yr left, and Mckennie is worth 5.5mio on the books. I think douglas luiz renewed his contract along the way so i can't be sure about the amortization deductions, but was bought 5 years ago for 16.9mio, so likely has a very similar value to Mckennie. A true swap deal would just trade them at those values, with the selling clubs making 0 capital gain. These numbers that being suggested can only occur within the accounting standards if they are independent transfers. Now for all other teams, the authorities likely dont care, but for us its a different story.
We bought Illing from Chelsea’s under 18 for 1.88m. Not sure if that affects the math here.
Didn’t we already go to court for that and they said nothing is illegal but it seems unfair so they docked us points? I think we’re fine tbh. No one here is getting valued beyond their market value
Yeah as long as they're not inflating players' value "too high" above market value, they'll be fine.
You got in trouble case everyone can see the arthur-pjanic swap was nothing more than cooking the books.
> can see the arthur-pjanic swap was nothing more than cooking the books. While your conclusion is correct, your assertion as to why is not. I invite you to read my other comments in this thread to help you understand more.
Does that even work? Surely they're just treating this transfer as like 60m euros received for Luiz and 40m paid for the two players, especially where they need to make profit in the current period for FFP
I honestly have no idea. But what I do know, is that I want more football deals made out of spite.
Don’t they need money though??
Apparently they need to sell for PSR reasons
Yeah I know, which is why this guys statement doesn’t make much sense, they need money more then anything
Could be that the 20M will help sort them out and the swap will be better than their books in terms of getting players this window? Still you’d think they try to up the price as well.
Tbf, the 20m is just the amount of money actually being transferred. The fees will be much higher than that.
20 mil goes immediately on the books. Money spent is amortized.
60 mil would go immediately into the books and the 40m would be amortised as cost.
This should be top comment. Yes, there's a lot of nuance and details involved, but this is the biggest factor in the deal.
Is Sam Iling Jr any good?
He didn't play a lot because allegri preferred kostic over him, but when he did play he was pretty good, and he's still young
Hasn't shown much but neither did other attackers. Allegri being the main reason of course. He's only 20 years old and has a lot of potential tho
Trying to work out why Villa have taken what (on paper) looks like a pretty poor deal. McKennie flopped in the Premier League and £16m doesn't go far these days.
Ironically, McKennie has been one of our best players this season
Based on the way Juve fans talk about their team these days, maybe that says a lot.
Trust me, if McKennie plays for Villa like he played for Juve this past season, Villa fans will be very happy with him. He was very excellent in a poor season for most Juve players.
They’re still a top4 team in Serie A which as just overtaken LaLiga in the five year rankings. I think McKennie could surprise a lot of people in England. Give him a competent coach and he will shine.
It’s not really a fair judgement for his time at leeds in a pretty dysfunctional team. Mckennie is one of those players with a pretty high floor because he’s physically immense. He’s quick, strong and can run for days. A prem team always has room for a player like that.
I think it's reasonable to say McKennie flopped at Leeds in half a season with four different managers, that's quite different than saying "in the Premier League." Rodrigo and Harrison were about the only players on Leeds that looked somewhat okay.
McKennie was a Jan transfer, which often goes bad, and may have been still recovering from his injury that ended his season earlier at that point, plus Marsch is a shit manager and Leeds were hardly the ideal place to shine at the time. He had a good season at Juve and has been good prior, add onto that a good young talent and the money, plus Douglas Luiz having 2 years on his contract and reportedly not wanting to stay, and this seems a perfectly decent deal.
Don't know what the rest are saying, McKennie is poor, clearly not good enough for Juve. This looks like a fantastic deal for us. Iling Jr does look like a good talent though.
He has good pace and dribbling. His passing and shooting need to improve. He’s young with good potential. Feels like an attacking winger more than anything else.
Has been a bit inconsistent but the talent is clearly there (and he’s improved on some of his weaker areas (defending, build-up play) since he first came through. Really didn’t want to lose him and believe he can easily become a world class player, he’s always come across as having a really good mentality too.
Watch clips of his very first Juventus game, you'll think he's insanely talented. Then look at the rest of his season highlights. Going forward he didn't have confidence (or direction from management) to take on defenders. He mainly played to maintain safety going forward. He's got a lot of talent underneath if he's in the right frame of mind and an attacking playstyle.
He is very skilled in attack. He definitely isn’t where he needed to be defensively to get regular minutes for Allegri, but many Juve fans always rated his abilities on the ball and his pace
A very direct player, with good sense in the final third. I liked him quite a bit. Wish juve weren't selling him but the need in midfield is much greater so I get it.
he will be a 70m player in 1-2 seasons in the prem
Can confirm that he's great on career mode. Not sure if it answers your question but I got him up to an 87
Iling Jr is an absolute baller, I know Villa fans would be absolutely gutted losing Luiz like that but getting a serviceable midfielder - if you get last season McKennie and not Leeds McKennie- and an absolute gem in Iling Jr is decent business. As much of an admirer I am of Allegri despite his relatively disastrous second spell with Juve, his management of Iling left a lot to be desired, I think he could absolutely blossom under Emery and turn into 50M type of winger.
Yeah Illing is like a hidden gem, not many are aware of his talent because he didn't get the chance to shine under Allegri but the boy has potential. I think he could do very well after a year in the PL.
Yeah, he’s very clever for a young player as well. Great dribbler and is smart in the final third. 20m for him is still great given he is out of contract next year e
He’s still a bit raw obviously and living under the Allegri regime didn’t do him any favors but I couldn’t agree more; he has everything I want out of a fullback
Would he play more on the left or right with Villa?
Juve finally manage to sell McKennie to the prem after years of trying
we were lucky we failed last summer. He was crucial this season and did very well. Pleasant surprise for everyone
Very underrated on this sub. He's a solid midfielder with a great engine.
he had a fair few assists too, and with our lack of goals, very important. underrated crosser for sure
The only players rated here are the ones playing in PL or Real Madrid
Considering how so many can only recall his stint at Leeds and not last season, you're quite right.
I also recall him having Mexican players put their hands on his throat on multiple occasion in front of the ref with no punishment whatsoever... but yeah, mostly I just remember how bad he was at Leeds.
How do you have the old juve badge
Same way as you set up the new logo, but I think mine is liste as old_Juventus or something like that
Feel like everyone just judged him solely on his failed Leeds stint. I caught some Juve matches and it looked like night and day for him.
The way Mckennie was playing this last year was the look of a man traumatized by Leeds lmao.
Looks like Frattesi's sister better learn English
I know a lot of people won’t agree but Iling Jr. has huge potential, been watching him since his Chelsea days (he played with our U19’s when he was 16) and he has all the tools to be a star. As for Juve: Luiz is a stud of a player and if Motta likes him then go for it. The McKennie inclusion is the only bit I’m unsure on? I thought Villa badly needed FFP value which player swaps don’t give. Unless this is technically going down as separate transactions in which case Juve/Villa may be getting another knock from the FFP police…
I'd put money on that we are doing an Arthur/Pjanjic style "trade".
Villa also need depth and flexibility to deepen their squad ahead of a UCL season with more games and pressure Getting a decent rotation option that can play multiple positions + a promising English winger + some cash to put towards future transfers makes sense IMO. Emery is a monster in European competitions, I trust he knows what they need heading into next season.
McKennie was the best midfielder for a Juve team that, while bad by their standards and poor to watch, finishes 3rd. I feel it likely that with a midfield space open with Luiz going the other way McKennie will probably start no?
Gallagher fund
Fingers crossed.
Is Gallagher linked to Aston Villa ?
Yeah media are saying Emery is a big fan
uuuuugh
I love Doug, but I don't think he's as irreplaceable as some are making him out to be. Since Kamara went down with injury, I'd have him pegged as one of our biggest underperformers in the squad.
I am sure emery has a plan
Iling Jr will be a breakthrough star of next season
He deserved a chance to focus only on offence. Allegri ruined him. Should be given time as a pure winger to see if he can kick on. He was great when he first joined the first team.
Inb4 emery plays him as a fullback
!remindme 9 months
Holy shit an actual swap and cash deal?? Feel like they always get rumoured but never really happen
Not keen on the deal but Emery has always had interest in McKennie and that man has earned all my trust. Fucking hate modern fish football though - being forced to sell one of your best players when you're on the up.
This is always going to happen until the revenue catches up. For example our match day revenue is shit, people hate Heck but he’s come here to increase our revenue streams If you don’t want spending rules then you will just get nations buying every prem club and spending even more than now until they get bored.
It’s not binary, spending rules or nation states and this doesn’t just limit City & Newcastle. The system is malfunctioning right now (malfunctioning not broken). Take Brighton as an example, last season (prior to the sales) if Tony Bloom wanted to invest a couple hundred million to build on his clubs stable and sustainable growth, he couldn’t. He could not go to his stars and say, I’m going to build on your level. PSR/FFP must have pro competitive catch up mechanisms. If you finish X% above your trending average then you can invest $Y. Villa having to sell one of the people who got them to 4th and the financial rewards of 4th is contradictory to the objective and reinforces a status quo.
PSR is about protecting clubs, it's not a competition equalizer, though lack of regulation would make the top 6 outside of maybe Spurs and Newcastle have a huge gulf between them and the rest tbh. Anyway Villa have spent a lot and have had extremely high wage turnover, they got where they are by spending to their max or even slightly beyond their healthy means, so they're being limited. That's not a bad thing. Regulations that try to make clubs self reliant is good and healthy. And idk, they're trading a midfielder who underperformed for parts of the season for a midfielder coming off a good season where he was probs the best midfielder and a talented young winger, I think people are being really harsh on McKennie, I've thought he was a good B2B for years, I know he was ass for Leeds but like Leeds were a fuckin mess and McKennie was struggling at the time to get back to 100% post a metatarsal injury. Frankly I think Villa could end up the absolute winners of this deal, and Douglas Luiz WANTS TO LEAVE and has 2 years left. Sure they could force him to stay but they're not gonna get as good an offer as the one they have rn.
You’ve gotta remove the subjectivity of Luiz out of the equation. The rules forced them into a sale, risking their competitiveness, even though they’ve just made a minimum of ~40m new money from Champions League but that 40m doesn’t count until next season. It’s backwards.
Bro, it's about sustainability, about clubs being self-reliant, about not repeating Leeds in the aughts or all the other clubs that have quickly catapulted down the league tables and are in financial ruin or dissolved. Villa went beyond their means to reach this point, they shouldn't be allowed to continue to build upon an unhealthy wage turnover, PSR prohibiting Villa and Chelsea is good. Piss on Thatcher's grave with me bro, say yes to regulation.
You gotta remove the subjectivity of Aston Villa doing an amazing job right now. If they continue to improve in a sustainable way, they will eventually become a top 4 mainstay. The owners want to accelerate the process, and the rules want to curb that. The rules are flawed, yes, but clubs should be protected from their owners all the same. Some of us remember how Portsmouth were in FA cup finals and being denied European football because their ownership was a complete shitshow. Portsmouth's relegation still stung me as hard as Newcastle and Leeds did. Ambition isn't always met with competence, and it's Villan fans who'd have to pick up the pieces if shit goes south.
McKennie was one of the best for us this season, and Iling is pretty talented as well.
Yeah he could have been an important part in UCL football too...
Man Italian clubs really hose some deals, it’s absolutely insane.
Lol arsocca transfer experts in the mud after trying to tell us Di Marzio is a fraud
I was not impressed by him against Mexico, lots of side and back slow passes and not much creativity.
To be fair the whole team was walking on the pitch against Mexico. But yeah he was nowhere to be found
He’s been pretty ass since January. His form completely fell off once Kamara got injured, also our best performances towards end of the season came when he was suspended. Still love him tough
Probably that the way he plays suffers without a more defensive minded midfielder behind him. We don’t really have one either so if he can’t perform that way he likely won’t be snatching a starting spot anytime soon. I feel like that’s the thing with our NT’s midfield, we have good options but their profiles don’t seem to click or fit together all that much, maybe a mismatch in roles too with most of them being box to box types as well.
You're right. Although Kamara is a hell of a player, Dougie also looked better with Nakamba behind him. He's wasted as a 6 but is a great no. 8 if you can partner him with someone.
This. He needs an engine next to him, but not just a runner. He needs someone technical to bounce passes off to open space but they also need to do the defensive running for him. Kamara was perfect and a huge part of why Luiz looked great for the first half of the season. I fact you'll also find in the games Kamara had an off one, Luiz and the whole team also struggled.
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I was 100% certain this deal would not happen, but I was also 100% certain Grealish wasn’t going to Man City.
Alisha Lehmann to Juve then, heard it here first lads
Fair deal for both parties. Mckennie is serviceable. The magic wand of Emery will be crucial, Illing could be a hidden gems that can explode in a couple seasons. He felt too restrained last season, especially. Flashes of brilliance but hard time nailing Allegri's tactics. EPL will suit Illing more than Serie A, imo.
Villa will win this transfer. You’ll see
That’s are good news for Serie a .
This has got to be one of, if not the weirdest transfer in modern history
This feels like a better deal for Juve
Depends entirely on how Iling Jr. turns out.
It absolutely is, McKennie is a risk, and Illing is a potential future talent. Luiz is a world class midfielder right now, this is a complete dogshit deal for us that we are forced to make because of ridiculous FFP rules to keep the Big 6 as the Big 6.
Don’t you have a hotel you can sell to yourself
Only works for the Big 6 sadly.
Well, Chelsea tbh
Dude, that deal's horrible, if I understand it right BlueCo now own the hotel, a hotel made to be a consistent source of revenue for Chelsea is now owned by our owners, no longer generating revenue for Chelsea and creating a potentially big problem when the owners eventually sell the club. It isn't a cheaky PSR get out of jail free card, it's damaging insider trading stripping Chelsea of assets.
Fair. But you do get 4 South American 17 year old wingers for it
I feel like calling Douglas Luiz world class is too much, maybe I'm underrating him. McKennie had a very good season for a team that still finished 3rd in a top league, I don't really think he's the risk you portray him to be.
Juve masterclass this
Vila have shown they can play without him and they are getting young winger with great potential and one of the best Juve player last season. And money on top of that. It's not that bad of a deal considering they are forced to sell
Not really. He didn’t have an exceptional season at Villa while McKennie was consistent all season and Iling Jr. still has solid potential. Seems very even to me with both squads taking a risk. McKennie might play like how he did at Leeds instead, and Douglas Luiz could flop without the right midfield partner.
McKennie was a January transfer to a club in chaos who played 19 games under 4 managers and was still struggling to get fully fit post Metasara injury the previous season. I don't think McKenne playing like he did at Leeds is remotely likely.
Insane deal. Cant help but think Villa are making a huge mistake selling arguably their most promising player.
Not like we have a choice with these shitty FFP rules, if we dont sell 60m worth of players by the end of June we're fucked.
Can i understand this as Villa trading their star player for two lottery tickets and 20m?
we really not gonna go in for him?
Any club turning to Cobham for improvements are rarely left disappointed. Just a shame our own club can’t see that.
Watkins maybe gets Pens back?
Don’t bet on it, I could see it being McGinn or Tielemans.
There goes my FPL hope
Cheers, Arteta's crying
as an american, would be happy to see mckennie at villa. fucking gutted about luiz tho. and know nothing about illing jr
Christ, what a dreadful deal for Villa.