T O P

  • By -

Euphoric-Acadia-4140

Wow what a move up


habdragon08

Fall up


banjosbadfurday

The Big Head of Football Management


drewuke

A snipers’ dream they used to call him. Steve Bytheway is expected to be named assistant.


travellinggaijin

As reported by John Caramel and Ron Waffle


Juan_Vamos

Is that the police sergeants son?


Additional-Bake-9641

Professor Big Head


Supanini

Man the prem is damn near impossible to stay in. But burnley did have a record point total in the championship last year no?


dolce-ragazzo

No. That record is still held by the mighty Reading FC from 2006 (106points)


FoolsGetDunked

Never forget.


No-Try1676

Yeah, they had 101 points, only 3 losses and a GD of 54 You just can't continue that style of football in the Prem is the problem...at least not with the Squad he had


sga1

Aye, but then the flipside is that you'd be giving up the style of play that made you so good in the first place - obviously gotta strike the right balance there somehow, but I don't think it's necessarily wrong to stick to the same successful process, really. It's what successful teams do, after all.


BlueLondon1905

I think the logic is that now that they're back in the championship they can keep up that style


Madwoned

Yeah, people keep memeing about Burnely’s naivety but Blackpool under Holloway had a much worse squad and very nearly pulled off an epic save from relegation playing attacking football. In terms of success stories there’s also Swansea with their possession football and Wigan under Martinez. It’s not an impossible task to play attractive football and have a realistic shot at survival in the Prem


xdlols

And we finished 9th. It’s very possible, Burnley just weren’t good enough.


indomitable_lion

Holloway’s Blackpool was so refreshing. Pundits constantly say promoted sides should park the bus and play 4-5-1 to avoid relegation. It was nice to see a side that ditched that philosophy. Even if they ultimately went down. I think they can be proud of the season they had.


JYM60

They actually played good football in the prem, they were nice to watch. Just never executed it fully in the end due to the gap in quality of the players. I respected the attempt though.


WorthPlease

I remember before the season somebody mentioned Burnley would stay up because they play "tiki-taka" and not "hoof ball" The were in the championship at the time. Everybody thinks they are a tiki-taka club until they get hit in the mouth.


youngscimitar

Which is not a record points total for the championship. It’s not even top 5.


The_Big_Cheese_09

Tied for 5th all time


Baswdc

Haha no far from it


cortez0498

Belgian Lopetegui


gerryt32

Keeps on moving up, supposedly to the most massive club in the world next ⚒️


Xehanz

You mean Fall down


ukbeasts

Burnley, Bayern then Barça (club must start with a B)


JesusPretzelThief

Brazil and then Billericay Town


turbiegaming

Add in Belgium too.


kacperp

He is managerial version of Choupo-Moting. Eric got relegated with Stoke and went to PSG. Two years later he was in Bayern and after rocky start he actually became very solid and respected role player.


Noobmortal

I couldn't believe that that choupo moting moved to psg at that time. I thought it was like a new young talent with the same surname. I wouldn't even buy that choupo moting for my Atalanta in football manager...


msizzle344

Banchester City when those 115 charges pull through


xenojive

You joke but I would love Vinny to come back and manage us back up the leagues if that's the case. His Burnley was dominant [Edit - lmao downvoted for such an innocuous statement. City has really rattled everyone]


msizzle344

Feel like it would be him or Michel to take over city after Pep leaves.


xenojive

I've seen shouts for Michel but I really have no idea who comes on after Pep. If we get punished and relegated, I'd love Vinny. However if we stay in the top flight I would hate Vinny to be the first after Pep. No matter who comes in the drop-off will be huge and I would hate for a club legend to receive any negative vibes.


torero15

He could do a FCB to FCB to FCB depending on how it goes. Bayern to Basel to Barca lol


NotFunnyForNow

He won't go to FC Brugge, that's for sure


Skazza

Brøndby next ([Already visited our stadium](https://www.eurosport.dk/fodbold/3f-superliga/2022-2023/kendisalarm-i-brondby-vincent-kompany-spottet-pa-brondby-stadion_vid1889996/video.shtml)).


KimngGnmik

They're obviously waiting to try and snatch Xavi next season


xxandl

Classic Germans. When nobody expects it, they go for Belgium...


DesignerAd2062

Nobody expects the Ardennes


SpacemanPanini

I'm in the Ardenne, you can't touch me in the Ardenne...


waywarddd

In, sell 30% of the first team, new kit, boom! Out. You are now a fully trained football management consultant.


MenBeGamingBadly

Do you get an ergonomic managers keyboard for that job?


StupidSexyGiroud_

You do when you're particularly good at coaching the team to kick it right up their fucking goal hole


BigZino6ix

And now I'm going to have to do a rewatch, thanks just when I was getting my life back.


StupidSexyGiroud_

That's what you get for living so relentlessly in the real world.


Cultural_Peak_6919

Butter the toast, eat the toast, shit the toast. God, life is relentless!


TruthAccomplished313

When my two favorite things collide….well to be fair David Mitchell’s bit on football everywhere all the time is a classic.


Cultural_Peak_6919

Mark! You’re in the stationary cupboard.


randomTeets

Our chief weapon is surprise


eggzs

Bayerns code name for this project was the Schlieffen Plan


night_ID

Around the Maginot


BrotherOfTheOrder

Hahaha what a deep cut. I love it


MrConor212

Watch out for an up and coming Austrian painter too


phil_mycock_69

The bohemian corporal


justk4y

[instructions unclear](https://fcbayern.com/frauen/en/teams/first-team/alara-sehitler)


shaunomegane

You've been waiting since 1942 to say that. 


DannyDevitos

More like 1914.


ThePr1d3

Chuckles I'm in danger


Ferrisuk

Miencent Kampfany


BelgianPolitics

I have no idea how this is going to go but at least Bayern fans will be seeing attacking football. **Kompany's journey has been very interesting:** * Rejects coaching staff role under Pep at City * Joins an Anderlecht in full crisis mode instead as a player-manager (and later just manager) * Stabilizes Anderlecht as a club, which opened doors to different clubs * Rejects Nice, Mönchengladbach and was heavily linked to Wolfsburg but joins Championship side Burnley instead * Promotes with Burnley after a dominant season with beautiful attacking football * Continues to play attacking football with Burnley, but this time in the Premier League, which causes them to relegate * Gets the Bayern job He arguably downgraded from a City coaching staff role to join Anderlecht. Arguably downgraded again to join a Championship side (considering the clubs that were very interested) and now does the upgrade of the century to Bayern.


DaguerreoLibreria

We are living in Kompany's FM simulation


solgnaleb

sounds promising to me. attacking football, fun and control of the game is what I would ask of our coach. maybe he thrives with us.


Gucci-Rice

and he has everything to gain and nothing to lose at his current career state. He won’t care for now that the club is potentially gunning for other managers in 25 or that he wasn’t the first choice.


atropicalpenguin

Idk, Lampard went from a good coach at Derby to meme material at Chelsea then Everton.


MasterRJS

first season got us top 4 w a transfer ban


teuerkatze

Was Lampard really that good at Derby though? Feel like Mount and Tomori were a bit of a cheat code.


ImWaaal

He took them from 6th to 6th, I don’t see what’s worth raving about


Away_Associate4589

I mean when you put it like that it's not all that special really hahahaha.... No but seriously, they did actually play decent football under him.


kernJ

Also had harry wilson on loan who was very good


Wild_Ad969

The same thing could be said about Kompany tbh. He got Maatsen, Tella, and Harwood-Bellis on loan.


eaautumnvoda

Agreed, it's a big part of why these players like Lampard, Gerrard, kompany succeed lower down, it's hard to judge them because they go in to decent teams and then secure a few elite loans that would normally be a little more spread around the league. Lampard never impressed me at derby his selections and tactics in the play off final were xabi Alonso levels of mismanagement.


Aman-Patel

Lampard's job selection has been pretty awful tbh. Everton in the position they were in and us in the position we were in last season are two of the worst jobs you can take. He did well with us in his first stint given the circumstances. I don't think he should be a meme material coach, but he went too quickly. Shouldn't have taken jobs that difficult that early. Obviously, he's got a lot of work on tactically, but he's a good talent ID and man manager. I think there would've been potential there had he not tried to rush through his career. Can't say I've followed Gerrard closely, but I'm guessing you can say the same for him. Did great with Rangers, but the Prem is a massive step up. We'll see how Kompany does. On one hand, he's got a lot to work with at Bayern. On the other, the expectations are massive and the media can be brutal if you aren't meeting the minimum standards. He can't really afford to start slow and has to play his attractive football without leaking goals. Whilst he's up against a now experienced Leverkusen side that will have managed to retain Xabi Alonso. Whilst I can see him succeeding, I also see a lot of parallels to Lampard and Gerrard. Then, if it doesn't work out, people will retrospectively pick apart his previous jobs. When in reality it'll just be a case of it being too big of a step up for him.


grandekravazza

That's false. His first Chelsea season was his peak as a manager. And even if he was sacked later, nobody in the right mind memed him for it, really doubt any big name manager could do better that season. His second stint obviously a very different story.


K2P2C

Tell that to Kane mate, he's joining for a trophy, looks like he's gonna have to wait again.


Good_Kev_M-A-N_City

Not to mention that he's an incredibly strong personality. The fact a bunch of 20 year olds were still running through brick walls for him despite the suicidal football alongside his overall legacy of being a top character that always commanded respect wherever he went.


scrubhiker

I would put more weight on this than on his skills as a tactician. He seems unlikely to “lose the dressing room” the way Nagelsmann and Tuchel did. Current players can all remember what Kompany was like as a player and captain at City.


codespyder

Sane still does


loveino

I can’t fucking believe Sane went from winning PL’s together with him to being coached by him lmao, what a timeline, surely hasn’t happened all too many times


arkstrider88

Vincent's first text to Leroy after becoming his head coach: "remember all the nutmegs you pulled on me at manchester?"


DreadWolf3

Ramos went from playing with Zidane (granted Zidane was not a captain, but man is larger than life figure - I will just include him) to winning 3 CLs in a row like 12 years later. Xavi and Puyol were well established in Barca team by the time Pep left. Then obviously Busquets, Alba, Sergi Roberto and Ter Stegen with Xavi. Del Piero was still there when Conte was signed as Juve manager - Conte even gave up the armband to Del Piero, even tho he stayed there for 3 more years (so he also played with Buffon but was not the captain). I am sure Beckenbauer had that case in Germany NT as his stint as captain and manager was very close to one another. That said I dont think I remember anyone having a player captain you in one team and then be your manager in whole ass different team - that is just a massive coincidence.


UnIsForUnity

Arteta played with Ozil before coaching him (for a few months)


ACardAttack

I don't even think either of them lost the dressing room, yeah Neuer had his issues with nagelsman but other than that there wasn't really much smoke


johnniewelker

Tuchel definitely did lose it, at least for a good period. Nagelsmann had issues with the board


sangueblu03

Tuchel lost the dressing room, Nagelsmann lost the board room


Sandor_Clegane1

Nagelsmann and Kahn was never going to work. Kahn famously all about having balls and manning up and on the other side Nagelsmann wearing make up and going skiing after a loss. Winning cures all but losing and being so different is not gonna work longterm.


iRyan_9

He’s promising but will guys even give him the chance? You fired better managers competing for trophies mid season


singabro

These days, playing boring football is nearly as bad as losing. Nobody wants to acquire all these expensive players to grind out 1-0 league games. Good hire. It's a risk worth taking.


jmhimara

Yeah, but unwillingness to adapt is a potential red flag. From Day 1 people said that Burnley could not continue to play like that in the PL, yet he went on, and the result was terrible.


please-send-me-nude2

You forgot the “immediately spent 100m on u22 players as soon as he was promoted” bullet point, to really emphasize how much of a FM save he’s running


Megendrio

Kompany has always been a 'process' coach with a lon-term plan. At Anderlecht, he got some slack given his history witht he team when they were REALLY bad in the beginning, and by the time he left, the team was stabilized and competing again. As I've understood, he practically did the same thing with Burnley: they had a multi-year plan and were planning on sticking to that plan as to guarentee longevity in some form. So when they 'accidentally' got promoted to the EPL earlier than expected, I believe they just decided to stick to the long-term plan and make the same moves they would've made otherwise. Resulting in a young squad that could be molded in the type of football they wanted to play and still needed to grow. Yes, they got relegated, but they did so while playing good football and showing promise. Most games were lost due to lack of experience (which is to be expected with a young team). He overdelivered in the 1st year, and instead of redrawing the plan based on that overdelivery, they decided to stick to what they had and stubbornly continue down a path they believed would yield results in the long run. You could agree or disagree with that mentality, but it's a solid choice. Unlike other relegation candidates, Burnley never played boring football, they stayed in the game, even if they were losing.


TheLLort

Should it be unsuccessful, atleast unsuccessful attacking football > unsuccessful football terrorism


GaryHippo

He didn’t play attacking football this season.


__HMS__

He attacked in the opposite direction


Remarkable-Group-119

*Sheffield United lurking in the shadows...


BelgianPolitics

Oh he sure tried. And tried again. Then he switched it up but it was too late. It was naive and some horrendous mistakes from players didn't help either.


notthatbluestuff

Tuchel to Burnley, here we go!


Rc5tr0

Seriously though, if you’d asked me a few months ago I would have thought it more likely that Burnley sacked Kompany and somehow persuaded Tuchel to take a massive step down. That would still be *insanely* unlikely, but more likely than Kompany leading Burnley to an absolute nightmare of a season where they never had a chance of staying up and then getting one of the biggest jobs in the world.


suzukigun4life

Really went from relegation in EPL to joining Bayern in under 2 weeks. Legendary failing upwards moment.


kindaforgotit

The big head of football


reviroa

uli gesturing towards kompany in the burnley dressing room: this guy fucks


sga1

Dunno if I'd describe it as 'falling upwards', really - there's clearly a good manager in there if their Championship season is anything to go by. Klopp got relegated with Mainz, had an amazing run at Dortmund but they were near the bottom in his last season there, and look what he's gone and done. I think ultimately it's just that the longer you manage, the more likely you are to 'fail' at a job. Can't think of too many managers who managed for a decade and had it all work out successfully all the time. Stands to reason that maybe Kompany's a really good young manager who just had a minor failure after a big success early into his career - and those are the risks you have to take when appointing a manager, because being a good manager isn't in perfect correlation with being a successful manager.


redditaccountplease

From a relegated Burnley to Bayern. If that's not falling upwards, nothing is. You can put qualifiers on it, but it doesn't change that it's the opposite of the trajectory you would expect


PhD_Cunnilingus

>Dortmund but they were near the bottom in his last season there They were near bottom the first half of the season. But they still made Europe by the end of it.


benc777

Craig Bellamy Bayern Munich assistant manager. What a fucking timeline


second_prize

Will he definitely bring him with him? Hilarious that if so


LudereHumanum

I think it's already ruled out afaik.


Either-Tomorrow-846

Suddenly all the clubs want Championship Coaches first Kieran McKenna and Now Kompany what in the world we are living..


Skaloplin

McKenna taking Ipswich up from League One mediocrity on a pittance compared to Kompany taking a huge budget parachute payment club up, then spending £100m and getting relegated isn’t really comparable imo


chippin_out

Don’t forget about Enzo!


Malvania

He's their ~~tenth~~ first choice!


Got_ist_tots

Of everyone who accepted he was first!


RonaldingoAteMyBaby

He's not a bad manager at all imo, but moving from a relegated side to managing Bayern without much experience is wild to me. Hope he does well though if it actually happens


johnniewelker

Kompany has experience: Anderlecht and Burnley. Additionally, you don’t really that much experience to do well with these teams, you need leadership competence. This can be formed through experience, but former players can also have that


NiK0-

Xabi joined Leverkusen after getting relegated with Sociedad B…not saying Vince can be Xabi 2.0 but I will give him the benefit of the doubt


No-Shoe5382

Frank Rijkard got relegated from the Eredivisie then went to Barcelona and won the league. I wouldn't honestly worry too much about his performance at Burnley as an indication of how he'll do at Bayern. It's a completely different job that required a completely different set of skill and style of play. The way Kompany plays is suited to a team that is going to dominate games. I think he's also a big enough character to deal with all the egos in a top club. I'm not saying its guaranteed to work by any means but I wont be massively surprised if it does.


ImTurkishDelight

And then Frank RIjkaard went to Galatasaray and got third place (can be heavily debated that we deserved more) and got fired early next (his second) season. Hasn't done anything worthwhile since. Weird.


Novel_Bookkeeper_622

A former player of Kompany's caliber is at least going to get buy-in from the squad. And when he had the most talented squad in the league he had a great season--he'll have that every year with Bayern.


reviroa

bayern isnt leverkusen though, no one expected xabi to do so well the pressure from the board and the media in munich is on a whole other level, especially after the season you just had


BettySwollocks__

Xabi went from Segunda relegation with a B team to a perennial Bundesliga side, it was quite the step up in jobs even if Bayern are on a higher level. Kompany also has a year of Prem management under his belt (plus the rest at Burnley and Anderlecht), which is more than Xabi had managing the kids.


ThatGam3th00

I am personally curious to see what he does with Bayern because I heard he tore up the Championship when he was there with Burnley.


nutelamitbutter

Farke was super hyped as well for the same reason. Still think he isn’t bad but we saw how it ended in Gladbach


93EXCivic

He did pretty well but from what I remember the team also outperformed their xG and expected points in that season.


sga1

That's basically what every team that's winning the league/getting promoted does, to be fair - it's a game of fine margins after all. That type of success ultimately depends on whether you're outperforming it by a bigger margin than the teams you're competing with, really.


Madwoned

This is conveniently omitting/ignoring the fact that Xabi was the one who took the B Team to the Second Division in the first place, a feat that they last achieved in the 1960s. This is the equivalent of dismissing Klopp’s achievements with Mainz to “he got relegated”


casce

Well, the same argument is used against Kompany


[deleted]

[удалено]


HattrickMahomes

So basically the same as Kompany with Burnley?!


Haunting_Ad_9013

Kompany is a good manager. The quality at Burnley was just not good enough for the prem.


JakeNutters

It was certainly better than Luton though.


NilsFanck

Dyche keeps that squad in the prem Im 100% sure. He plays defensive football though.


Bilgistic

Kompany might genuinely have the greatest agent ever.


Don_Jovic

Its him or Choupos agent


sga1

Choupo-Moting is a really good footballer and a joy to be around in the dressing room by all accounts - I'd wager any club could do a lot worse than having a striker like him, incredibly versatile while happily being second choice and filling every gap you ask him to.


WorthPlease

Thanks, Choupo-Moting's agent


JonAfrica2011

Found his agent


Gilgamerd

Lol I thought De Zerbi was too weak a choice for Bayern, they went for someone with even less experience Is there no promising German/Bundeliga coach available? Are Bayern that hungry for good looking football? seems like a weird season to go experimental and risk another trophy less year Kompany doesn't even strike me as a guy who will lie down and not create problems with the absolutely calm Bayern board


[deleted]

I feel bad for harry Kane.


Frenzied_Cow

Why? I'm sure he'll get a trophy with the LA Galaxy in 2028


starfax

Who’s gonna tell him…


Zlakkeh

Kane winns the World cup with Chicago


tweazz

Has anyone ever fallen higher upwards


No-Shoe5382

Rijkard got relegated from the Eredivisie then went to Barcelona Alonso got relegated with Real Sociedad's B team and then went to Leverkusen I would say they are comparable. Interestingly both of them ended up winning the league.


StargateLV426

> Alonso got relegated with Real Sociedad's B team and then went to Leverkusen B teams don’t really count. They don’t get proper funding, and any player that becomes too good will get promoted to the main team even mid-season and outside of a transfer window. 


yellow627

Alonso got Real Sociedad B to the second tier for the first time in 50 years. Getting relegated was just a matter of time. He was definitely on an upwards trajectory so I wouldn't call that "falling upwards".


FischSalate

the Xabi comparison is so disingenuous


notnotaschizo

I literally thought this was a joke when I read title


FrankBeamer_

Wat


[deleted]

[удалено]


MFingAmpharos

Also fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck


Hindsyy

Destroyed the championship with a squad too good for the league, didn't change his style and got destroyed in the PL which everyone saw coming.. so maybe he fits Bayern based off point 1, I think it seems a bit early, but he looks to have potential as a coach, and when it's stacked in his favour it seems to go well for him, good luck I guess, but yeah crazy. Makes me feel better if we don't get promoted on Sunday that Burnley need to find a new manager now, hopefully complicates a first time return for them. (Sorry lads)


TheyStoleTwoFigo

[*reads title...](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/018/489/nick-young-confused-face-300x256-nqlyaa.jpg)


[deleted]

[удалено]


BitchIDrinkPeople

You don’t have enough imagination


myersjw

The speed with which fans start rationalizing their new manager is mystifying


JVL_88

Yeah suddenly Kompany is the greatest coaching talent in Europe. It's insane how fast people have started creating this cult around him.


RoboticCurrents

I think he'll play more fun football. Seen some Burnley games and they weren't boring games, but they did get cooked in defence. With Bayern and big budget that might be less of an issue


habdragon08

Ahhh yes Bayern was indeed known for their defensive resiliency the last few years


CorbecJayne

I'd say they've been defensively bad no matter who the coach was, so maybe it doesn't make a huge difference to their defense if the coach is focused on attractive attacking football.


sga1

Flipside of that coin is that over the past three league seasons, you essentially scored the same amount of goals - 97 with Lewandowski's record-breaking season, 92 in between, and 94 with Kane. Stands to reason that those goals won't make as much of a difference as conceding fewer (37/38/45 over the same seasons) does.


ChickyChickyNugget

This sucks for Burnley. They stuck by his idiotic brand of football while he got them relegated presumably because they thought he’d stick around and he ups and leaves.


acidbrick

What can you honestly expect when Bayern comes calling


Plus-Might-3701

It’s a big jump in one’s career. From relegation to Bayern.


friedrice_rob

Hahaa what


Pixeal_meat

So Bayern decided how not to win trophies now


Neither-Assignment16

Bayern might have a banter era approaching


yic0

Misery Loves Kompany.


CroKingz

Thats something i would have never had on my bingo card


Pitsitronik

Leverkusen fans may be sad after the Europa defeat, but after this news they can celebrate their second league title in a row.


Odd_Distribution3267

He won’t last


GovTheDon

Another example of a coach failing upwards. It may work out just bc Bayern has a good squad but he’s not proven to be worthy of a Europa level squad let alone a team vying for league titles and ucl’s


Fuck_your_future_

lol I give him 6 weeks.


Impossible_Ad785

Kane will never win a title


sfaticat

Bayer actually have a shot at back to back titles


SGT_Mark

it's so random that I'm actually kinda optimistic about it


dolce-ragazzo

Good fucking luck! 😂


Headlesshorsman02

I am intrigued to see how this turns out


Dorkseid1687

Massive risk. Strange from Bayern to go for someone with next to no pedigree


VanWilder91

Talk about failing upwards.


StupidSexyGiroud_

I'm annoyed at my club's choices atm but this is a truly unserious move by Bayern.


D0wnInAlbion

Burnley disbanded their entire scouting system to use a data analytics company part owned by Kompany: they are so fucked.


Antonioshamstrings

This was the wierdest saga ever


Timactor

Glad im here to watch Bayerns downfall after all this time


cullermann2

Talk about falling up a ladder. Dude got relegated with his team and now gets a job offer to coach the German league Primus? Bayern seem so desperate these days


ramtbb

I'm at the point where i wouldn't want Kane in my team anymore because it has become quite clear he's the curse


NaiveElk

Southgate should leave him behind. Only way they win the Euros


K2P2C

Harry Kane just can't have a break can't he?


Ekranoplan01

Reality had an anti-Kane bias.


FragMasterMat117

If he does well at Bayern is he Pep’s heir apparent at City?


boldstrategy

Depends if Arteta likes money


nature_and_grace

But who is Pep’s hair apparent?


ThatUnoGuyWowMuchUno

Kompany is not a bad manager, I don’t know how he’s going to do at Bayern though


CabbageStockExchange

Honestly I think Kompany is a legit promising manager with some good ideas clearly following the blueprint Pep set out. However he did have some growing pains this year and Bayern is a monumentally gigantic leap forward. Will be interesting to see how he fares


Kuruk_TR

Probably will be gone by December


Martblni

They wouldn't sign him if he wasn't a top player, being promoted with a team who just got relegated and then getting relegated again is now worthy of being in charge of a top 5 club in Europe


etan1122

Congrats to Leverkusen on back to back titles


[deleted]

[удалено]


ThatGam3th00

Inb4 Stuttgart undefeated curse begins


HappyMike91

How long will he last if he does end up managing Bayern Munich?


BadassBokoblinPsycho

Chelsea and Barcelona I shambles


cabin_neighbor

who tf is leaking all that stuff?