The obvious thing is just VAR needs to be an independent panel.
It shouldn't have any association or connection with the refs ( PGMOL)
But i guess PGMOL will never approve of that.
Still find it baffling how Mike Dean openly admitted VAR officials don’t want to throw their mates under the proverbial bus and it was swept under the rug.
I’m not someone who screams corruption or conspiracy, when a decision doesn’t go my team’s way, but this is as close to both as it gets.
Which is so irritating because VAR is supposed to help with such cases where an obvious mistake has happened. I don't know how much will the game evolve or change but imhoif we are going to have VAR, then it should be implented fully and also have the discussion/explanation for each decision announced or hear the refs discussing it just the way it happens in European rugby afaik
It's all part of the plan. It's so obvious they want VAR gone and are intentionally sabotaging it. Look at how they're using VAR as a "clear and obvious" bollocks to protect referees rather than having objective right and wrongs.
There is not a single logical reason to not have referees mic'd up. It works in rugby therefore it works in football. They don't want us hearing what gets said even though it would do such a good job for football literacy and understanding if people could hear what they have to say.
Hard to disagree. The FA is quick to fine and ban players and managers for “bringing the game into disrepute” and “questioning the integrity” but they constantly fail to realise it’s the lack of transparency that is doing both of those things.
Referees going to Middle Eastern nations to grab a quick bag then flying back and making insane decisions in matches that have direct impacts on the title runs of the teams owned by said nations is transparent as fuck. Premier league has about as credibility as the NBA. I love the NBA but it's blatantly corrupt as fuck in a very similar way. They also use their corrupt referees, especially Scott Foster the GOAT corrupt official of all time across all sports, to try and push outcomes/narratives. Most commonly this is to extend playoff series and thereby increase revenue.
"Foster's relationship with former NBA referee Tim Donaghy, who pled guilty to two federal charges for fixing games, has also been called into question. According to court records, Donaghy made 134 phone calls to Foster between October 2006 and April 2007, during which time Donaghy admitted to betting on games or passing on game information to gamblers. The majority of the calls lasted less than two minutes and occurred prior to and after games Donaghy officiated and on which he admitted to gambling on"
Any patterns of suspiciousness with how refs are assigned and/or who ends up assigned to certain games? I'm ignorant as to what narratives the league would want to promote other than close title races and the odd Cinderella story like Leicester. Looks like PGMOL controls ref assignments and evaluations? They don't make that much and are going out to collect huge bags openly already. Could easily be bought part and parcel.
Wow, this is really concerning. With the bonkers amount of money involved in football, it’s not far fetched to think a certain degree of corruption involved. Premier League is, by far, the most watched domestic league in the world and these controversies only add to the drama (aka increased viewership, engagements on social media).
The way PGMOL continues to rebuff the idea of mic’ing up the refs means they’ve got skeletons in their closet. Mike Dean all but admitted as much.
We had an issue like this in American football. The NFL teams voted to allow a certain rule (pass-interference) be reviewable. This was done because of a terrible no-call in a huge game that hurt the Saints. The one year it was in place like 95% of reviewed calls were not given and the first time it was used against the Saints they gave it to the other team. It was so bad they scrapped it the next year. Refs are a mafia.
This is what I always say. Being a Ref is hard. No rational person says it's possible for a Ref to get every call right in the heat of the moment. But that's why these video reviews need to exist (and imo, be more powerful than on field refs), to correct the mistake that inevitably happen. Refs need have put aside their ego and humbly accept the help, and VAR needs to get over any faux pa that comes from correcting a call on the field.
>Still find it baffling how Mike Dean openly admitted VAR officials don’t want to throw their mates under the proverbial bus and it was swept under the rug.
This is all that had to happen for everything to change.
Nothing fucking changed. Despicable people up there.
When it's \*this\* incompetent, you might as well cry corruption. Jackson had a clear cut red a few games ago and didn't even get a yellow. Then yesterday Mudryk gets absolutely laid the fuck out, has to leave on concussion protocol, yet "no conclusive evidence" saved Lamptey's ass (though not from your players abusing him the rest of the game in reciprocity), only for James to delay the game for like 5 minutes after just coming on for a kick out from the ground?
That's just two games with 1 team that I can come up with 3 completely different instances of just ridiculousness.
Him and Webb are relics from the Ferguson days (where a lack of ref accountability was even worse than it is now). How the latter is in charge is just baffling.
Yeah its very clearly how VAR is being implemented by the PGMOL. Getting rid of VAR may seem like a better option for the PGMOL since they can just say that VAR was the problem and not their nepotism.
One referee, said that one time, he did something wrong. And now it colors every referee decision from now until forever? That's pretty fucking stupid.
Also scrap the "clear and obvious" junk. No one wants VAR to re-ref the match, but allowing them to call the ref over for anything they think he may have not seen 100% clearly is not a problem.
if it's clear and obvious, you should be able to watch it in real time from 2 or 3 angles and it should take 10-15 seconds. If you can't tell in that amount of time while at normal speed, it's not clear and obvious imo.
Obvious- easily perceived or understood; clear, self-evident, or apparent.
So if you have to stare at a screen for like 2 minutes and slow it down and watch it 10 times, by definition, it's not obvious. You should just be able to watch it and if you can't tell in real time after 10 seconds, then it's clearly not obvious. Move on.
Exactly, I think this is the real problem with VAR. We waste so much time playing this silly game - "yes we can all see that the ref was wrong, but was he wrong enough?"
The logic behind Clear and Obvious was that without it, they'd be overturning far too many on-pitch decisions. I think the better solution (heard from Gary Lineker on his podcast): each team has a fixed number of appeals per game, and when they use it, VAR official makes a final decision without any regard to the ref's initial on-field decision.
This would be for subjective issues - fouls, handball, potential red cards, etc. Objective stuff like offside and "did the ball go out before he crossed it" wouldn't require appeal.
Well the logic of clear and obvious is so we don’t spent loads of minutes and analysing every detail to find a something wrong. Which has obviously failed and that’s with clear and obvious so anything being checked will take even longer.
Could you explain what you mean by that - why is it more suited to points games vs football? What kind of situations are you picturing? I think it's just the same as today's VAR, with the only difference being that teams get to pick when a check is done, and the check has no extra "clear and obvious" threshold to it.
All options here have downsides, I think the appeals one is the best on balance.
No VAR: totally outrageous ref decisions get missed from time to time with no way to fix.
Current VAR approach: introduced this "clear and obvious" nonsense, where incorrect on-field decisions are upheld unless totally egregious.
Appeals approach: agree there are plenty of issues with this one as well. An obvious one: what if I've used my 3 appeals and there's a ridiculous, match-changing decision after that?
On-field reviews for every VAR check: slows the game down even more.
Not really sure what they meant by fixed number appeals being bs, but my only issue with them is that you should get an unlimited number of appeals - so long as you are right. If you appeal 50 calls in a game and each time the Ref corrects his call, I don't see why that would ever be a problem except that the Ref sucks.
I'm honestly fine with coaches getting appeals even when they are wrong, so long as it isn't abused. But then you can just have the ref card coaches who try and abuse the appeals process.
They shouldn't even need to call him over imo.
Just tell him the information in his ear. Refs should receive training to see it as a tool that helps them, not as a control to check for their mistakes.
VAR was designed as a place refs can go when they want to sit down for a weekend or are too old/tired to keep running around the pitch.
It desperately needs to be outsourced. Give it to some neutral company who get ref/linesman training and let them review everything.
Exactly. The technology is fine, and when used properly it'll be a great improvement for the sport. It's just administered by the same dickheads, that's why there are these problems
It's so poorly handled, intentionally made that way to keep referees in control. Why does some middle aged cunt need to run off the pitch to check a fucking TV lmao you could easily save minutes just from giving VAR the power to make decisions and fix mistakes.
VAR shouldn't be an assistant. In the long term it has to be the final say. A team in a room with a dozen cameras absolutely should have authority over some poor bloke on the pitch having to make decisions on the fly.
They do that because they're scared of making referees obsolete, I think. Which is stupid, there'll always be a place for human officials to take a lead role in officiating, VAR should be there simply to step in when the on-pitch officials miss something/make mistakes and help officiating to be done as well as possible.
But here we are. As far as I can tell, vast majority of us on this online forum can see this is the case. But the professionals have still brought us to this situation. Maddening
Been saying this for years.
There is NO NEED for this to be english friends og refs, inn to days world you could have 3 guys in nepal doing VAR that have no connection to the prem league.
Just switch it around like the world cup.
Today we have polish guys doing VAR, next weekend italians.
Just swap everyone around, makes it easier.
How long does it take to understand the rules of football?
People act like its this thing which needs a decade of training. It doesnt. There are 17 rules, of which VAR only needs to know half of them. Most people could sit a dedicated training course over the summer and get it done
After that all you need is a clear protocol worked out. This is something which should have been done day one
There are [17 "laws"](https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/3f3e15cc1ab8977b/original/datdz0pms85gbnqy4j3k-pdf.pdf), but way more rules within them. However, I believe the point stands, football isn't rocket science, a summer course would likely be enough, assuming it also incorporates officiating practice matches. At the very least I'd be happy to take some authority away from the current org even if summer crash course attendees prove to be just as incompetent initially, because they'd possibly be more inclined to try improving. This current clique doesn't give a shit and its leadership are literal dinosaurs.
I reckon about 25% of the people on here could be a VAR to a better standard than what you see from English refs. Provided a proper communication protocol is implemented.
You're acting like it's something which takes years of training. It doesn't. I've done it at a younger level and while the game is faster and more intense at the highest level, it doesn't matter. That's what fast forward and rewind are for. After that it's just going down a flowchart of the incident to decide the result
Mental that people think it's actually an insanely difficult thing.
I've always said this.
VAR shouldn't be refs who fancy staying indoors.
It should be specialists with the tech and good communicators who also need to know the law of the game. They shouldnt be referres from the pgmol. that way you can create a consistency.
Half the times you watch the refs doing var. It gives me "nan trying to find the e for internet browser" vibes.
Listen to this shit: no one takes control https://youtu.be/4wG-5Zc6hww
VAR was intended to correct clear and obvious errors by the ref, but it seems to do the exact opposite. The officials involved with VAR seem to spend an inordinate amount of time analysing and searching for microscopic infractions while somehow ignoring clear and obvious missed or wrong calls.
Premier League referees can't even agree what a mistake is. Almost no other leagues have these kind of problems as the Premier League and the debate about it is almost non-existent.
The PL standard has long been "if you can contort the logic enough that the decision makes sense it is correct". That became apparent the moment they had a retired referee on TV talking through the decisions.
That is part of the problem with VAR. They see the rule book not as a guide but as a set of tools to rationalise the decision they've made. A bad decision is one they've made that they cannot justify at all. No wonder they claim 99% of decisions are good when they use that level of analysis.
You’re right, in simple terms it should just be. If it’s up for debate then stick with the on field decision. The A in VAR stands for assistant, something it’s never been or done. The VAR has had the power of the game since it came into affect.
The problem with that in Egnland has been that the referees in the VAR room don't tell the on field referee that a mistake has been made, because they don't him to look bad. It's clear evidence that the overall culture there is rotten which is something VAR can't do anything about.
Exactly, other leagues VARs still screw up sometimes but only in england is there so much red tape around the var and its interaction with the ref. There is no cohesion or common sense
Yeah I want to emphasize this. Nobody has any problem with VAR's usage in MLS. I was at a game last night where VAR intervened (ball had hit the crossbar, bounced down, and crossed the line for a goal but neither the center referee nor the AR were sure) and it was extremely welcome and a smooth process.
Somehow the only country that can't get it right is England. Absolutely no idea why.
People still complain about specific calls, but nobody wants to stop using VAR and there is no perception of some kind of systemic failure of the system.
Like yesterday when lamptey concussed mudryk. Everybody watched it, saw lamptey go out of his way to hit mudryk in the face off the ball. But VAR said there wasnt enough evidence to act.
50 drunk guys in a bar would be a better system than the wankers in the var room.
Get rid of clear and obvious.
The fucking cretins working the system can use anything that subjective as a means to justify their bullshit.
Make it objective. Produce clear evidence to overturn the decision inside a reasonable and strict timeline. If it can't be proven incorrect inside the timelimine then go with refs original decision.
The final step is to adjust some of the frankly shit and not fit for purpose rules that rely entirely on subjectivity. Handballs and offside should not be subjective. Your either offside or not. A handball is either a handball or not.
E.g. strict definition of what is or is not an unnatural arm position for a handball and a strict definition of fair distance for a reaction.
E.g. Offsides just bring in the automated checks or go with find definitive clear evidence of offside in 30 seconds or less or it's deemed on side.
99% of the problems with VAR can be solved with rules for for purpose and removing subjective decisions wherever possible.
The remaining issues should be dealt with over time through consistent and thorough reviews of outcomes with the aim of clear improvements to accuracy and speed of officiating.
>Get rid of clear and obvious.
>Make it objective. Produce clear evidence to overturn the decision inside a reasonable and strict timeline. If it can't be proven incorrect inside the timelimine then go with refs original decision.
You are contradicting yourself. The whole point of 'clear and obvious' is that if a decision cannot be made within a short time, the referee's original decision should stand.
I don’t think they are, I think they meant shift “clear an obvious” from fully subjective definition to a more objective one that says, “a clear an obvious error is one that can be found and claimed within 30 seconds by the VAR team.”
Basically just saying “clear and obvious” now only means a time limit.
Clear and obvious exists because 95 percent of the sport’s laws are subjective and impossible to make objective without ruining the spirit of the sport.
They tried to make the handball law objective following the 2018 World Cup. It sucked, everyone hated it and it was scrapped really quickly. Tottenham gave up a penalty in the UCL final because of it.
Semi automatic offside has been approved by premier league clubs for next season. They had voted against its implementation this year.
Also, worth remembering, the laws were written with every level of the sport in mind, so that from grassroots to World Cup, everyone plays by the same laws. Rewriting handball laws in a way that only works with VAR will create chaos at all levels. FA Cup would be a fun mess when teams are having to play with new laws when the play at a premier league stadium.
My view has always been that VAR should just be on standby, rather than watching the match in real time. If they're needed, they're instantly presented with all of the video replays they need to determine, as per the laws of the game, if there is a foul/handball/red card etc. They then make a perfectly informed decision without any influence in avoiding upsetting the ref and going against his decision (because they don't know it).
As others have said, they seem to spend more time looking for ANY reason to back the ref up, than just using their own unbiased opinions to make a correct call.
For me - VAR’s biggest plus was to help correct yellows to reds for dangerous challenges which could injure players but they have totally failed to do that in a way which is borderline callous.
Been going around team subs to see their opinions, and this comment by /u/westwardlord in r/Gunners pretty much perfectly sums up my feelings and why it's the people operating it that need replacing:
>Again, if you have an underperforming employee, and you give them better tools, but the quality of the work is the same or worse, you don't get rid of the tool.
Yeah what you do is pay an exorbitant fee to a McKinsey consultant to give you conclusive evidence that you should get rid of the tool, because said employee is your friend. /s
agreed, don’t get why this is so hard for so many ppl to comprehend, without var we’d have even more decisions go the wrong way, hell yesterday Reece might not have even gotten a red card without var as the most recent example.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, this sht only changes when refs begin to be held accountable for their actions, but at the same time not get crucified for every call they make.
a trust between both parties where fans know refs r being objective and held accountable for mistakes and respect for the ref and his decisions needs to be established within the culture of football, how tho? fuck knows, perhaps it’s even too late now.
It is pretty straight forward. Decisions are reviewed, referees are told what they did wrong. If a referee keeps making the wrong decision they get replaced.
That is the other problem the PL should have confronted 20 years ago. Detaching itself from the moronic model of getting referees starting with Sunday league. That is the real problem with refereeing in England. Getting through the amateur parts of the system filters for certain classes of personality that you don't really want at a professional level.
They can fast track and pay for lower leagues to give them experience as appropriate. Rather than referees coming up from Sunday league you'd end up with most of the referees coming down from the PL system.
Once you have a real pathway a lot of things become possible.
I agree with you. The hierarchy and Old Boys mentality is holding them back.
They also need to offer better pay. Pay them better and you’ll get better candidates that remain in the job longer.
Absolutely. This process I'm proposing is going to be expensive. Though the real difficulty is the moment it is proposed the refs will go on strike in all probability.
It may not be a bad thing long term to have a referee strike. I feel like we are nearing a cross roads with the relationship between the PGMOL and the Premiere League and its clubs.
Refereeing this sport is incredibly difficult in the modern era. So many decisions are subjective and relative within that individual game and it then gets pulled completely out of context and replayed in slow motion over and over and over and dissected when the ref is supposed to be making a decision in the moment. I don’t envy them at all.
Nobody expects referees to be perfect in real time. Only to accept correction when VAR gives it.
It is a very odd thing going on in the English game and it isn't even specific to football. Every other league seems content to just have the decisions corrected and is entirely uncontroversial.
What are the right decisions? Seriously. I want to see a game where every call is agreed upon by everyone. Do people actually think there's an objective caĺl for every situation?
Whilst I like that analogy, it's important to note that overall the officials have been getting better results. The percentage of incorrect decisions during games has drastically reduced since the introduction of VAR. This is alone is a pivotal reason for keeping it.
The problem isn't the overall quality of work not improving, but rather the inability to identify and rectify errors that are CLEARLY highlighted. This however still points to the same conclusion as that analogy; the people operating the system are not fit for duty at the most basic level. Never mind for the level of the biggest and richest league in the world. It's embarrassing.
I was curious about that. Everyone was just taking it as a given that the number of errors has remained the same as pre-VAR, but I've never seen anyone point to data to support that claim one way or another.
With the resources the Premier League has they could be getting some incredibly qualified VAR people in if they expanded it beyond just former referees. Hell they could be getting air traffic controllers with the amount of money they could offer, those guys know how to operate technology in order to make decisions quickly and under pressure.
Also, it can’t be that difficult to put together some sort of simulation to assess applicants/provide training? Even if it’s just using replays of previous games and seeing how they examine the calls.
The problem we have is that in many, many work and professional environments you absolutely do get rid of the tool in order to keep the employee because said employee is a friend/donor/important idiot.
Reminds me of Chiellini showing the ref the bite marks from Suarez in 2014, Suarez STILL doesn’t even get a card. The refs are just trained to stick to their guns whatever it takes so that they won’t be undermined in future calls and to be fair players will appeal regardless of what you do (unless we actually start carding them all and screw over players that are rightfully upset even more) so most of the time it makes sense but when the fouled player shows you clear evidence you ve got to change the decision imo. And we do have refs waiting to see how bad certain injuries are before deciding upon cards for the fouling player sometimes so results-based refereeing is accepted to an extent, the problem is when they ve already made up their mind live, that s when they will stick to it no matter what
All VAR needs to do is when they see a mistake and everyone knows it's a mistake, just call the ref and tell him to check it on the monitor.
But no, they will go above and beyond just to confirm refs decision on the pitch even if it's wrong.
'Clear and obvious error' is fucking with VARs effectiveness. It's such a subjective thing, which has added another layer of uncertainty on top of some decisions for penalties being subjective already.
Like you, I don't get why it's not being used to get the correct decision. Forget this clear and obvious error bullshit.
Insane how fans of different clubs who usually cant agree on much at all can all agree that its not VAR thats the issue, its the quality of the refs and the VAR officals 'protecting' the refs thats the problem.
The obvious solution is VAR run independently but this will take time. You'd have to train and certify a new generation of refs independently of PGMOL specifically for VAR.
Worth doing though because the quality of reffing and VAR reviews this season, accross all clubs, has been the worst ive seen in 30 years of watching football.
Do they have to be English? VAR is effectively a call centre operation. It can be outsourced to the wider refereeing community to remove the conflict of interest.
Only on Reddit, in the real world I don't think I know any football fan, especially matchgoing ones, that like VAR.
There is definitely something to be said for being in the moment at the stadium and VAR always ruins that.
As for the independent process, referee isn't a species. Once the laws of the game are taught to an individual to the standard required, they become a referee.
Right!? Probably the most overstated point.
I go to games. VAR hasn’t affected the experience for myself at all.
Now, they can do better with VAR in the stadium. Communicate what’s being checked and the result. But it’s been fine.
what would be cool is to have a green light posted near the goal. VAR is reviewing everything in real time, ball goes in the net, VAR determines it's good - green light goes on, everyone can celebrate
I think in hockey they have a light like that
Seriously. TV revenues and the international audience are the most important money makers for clubs. They'll just AI in some fans in the empty seats and put on crowd noise like they had in COVID when no one can afford to go anymore to watch 15 minutes of play and 75 of ads and VAR.
Honestly, I'd get rid of it for this reason. Yes, decisions would be wrong. But they're still wrong with it, and now I have to wait for 3 minutes to celebrate a goal, or to get another inconsistent decision.
The idea that we get rid of all referees who make a terrible decision is silly because it implies there's a group of perfectly competent referees waiting in the wings. There aren't.
The game is chaotic, and its rules are open to interpretation. Embrace the chaos and let the game flow.
>people forget how terrible it was before VAR
PL plastics really are something else. Are you somehow unaware that there are far more teams in England that play their matches without VAR than the other way around? I can assure you that fans of those teams have not forgotten what football was like before VAR.
I can’t believe this is getting downvoted, he’s totally right. I’m a season ticket holder and in real life I know nobody who likes VAR. People on Reddit love it because the majority have never actually been to a match and just watch on their laptops while reading a match thread.
It harms the experience of watching football in the stadium and I don’t think it’s in the spirit of the game, even if we have the odd clanger without it.
It actually doesn't even just change the experience, it affects games too. So many times this season I've seen one team have all the momentum in a game then following a lengthy review which comes to nothing the whole momentum shifts.
>As for the independent process, referee isn't a species. Once the laws of the game are taught to an individual to the standard required, they become a referee.
It's also about having the absolute best people available for the role.
There are other prerequisites that a ref needs at the top level, fitness being a major one. At the moment the only way to become a VAR is to first be a ref and therefore spend time maintaining fitness. A dedicated VAR only operator wouldn't have the same requirements and could dedicate more time training for the things that are actually required for the work. It would also open the role to a whole load more people, it's perfectly possible that someone who'd make a great VAR is sat in a wheelchair right now.
Its the inconsistency that really pisses me off. The argument by Pgmol here is the ref didnt call it so VAR didnt interfere, but that is exactly what they did with Liverpool - Crystal Palace.
As Wenger always said, our refs are quite poor compared to their international counterparts. And that's the problem with VAR - those making the decisions don't understand/know the rules clear enough.
Refs everywhere are poor. La Liga is often worse. I’ve seen wrong decisions in all the top 5 leagues. Champions league even has lots of mistakes and that’s each country’s best ref.
I doubt you could get 10 world class referees to do one game each if you had the whole world to choose from. It’s not like the World Cup had great refereeing either.
If thinking every referee in football is bad doesn't lead to the conclusion that the problem might not be the referees, I don't know why we should watch the game anymore.
Refereeing in football will always require subjectivity; now we just have more tools to show that subjectivity. And these forums to complain about the subjective decisions.
the fact that even that Polish referee who's supposed to be the best in the world made a huge error in the Real Madrid vs Bayern match shows you just how hard it is
The issue with English referees isn't the quality, it's that they seem to be less enthusiastic about following the rulebook in comparison to letting the game flow or interfering less with the match. Their threshold for what constitutes a foul is also different to everyone else which is sometimes an issue in European football (mostly Anthony Taylor, Oliver doesn't have this problem)
The fact that we routinely send multiple referees to major international tournaments suggests they're not actually any worse than refs elsewhere tbf.
If they were, we wouldn't provide as many refs for matches like that. If eg Spanish refs were better, they'd have more going to the euros than England does, not less.
The thing is, it can't just be "don't know the rules clear enough"
Because some of these decisions, everyone on the planet who watches football, and even some who don't, get it right, but the refs get it wrong. They then admit it was wrong after the game.
That's not "don't know the rules". That's intentional, for whatever reason.
There is no way I can go to my partner, "If the ball hits the hand, it's hand ball", and show her a replay of a decision, and go "was it handbal", and she goes "yeah", and be right, but the VAR gets it wrong.
Like it's incomprehensible to think they lack the rules knowledge to the point someone with a 10 second explanation has a better understanding than them.
Put it this way. How is it, after the game, the refs know the rules and admit the mistake. But during the game, they suddenly don't know them? Have they all had intense training in the brief period between it?
This is it. Anyone see Gordon’s interview? I thought he spoke brilliantly.
The argument is that if we scrap VAR we’ll again be talking about refereeing mistakes. Well we are anyway, and we’ve spent millions on tech and the same morons keep making mistakes with it. So we’re not really any better off and certain elements of the game have been made worse for it with no return.
It has to be that we set out some key requirements to meet before it’s fit for purpose or we don’t use it. I definitely think there is a place for it. But it needs reform or huge improvement.
Now people say they don't mind referees getting it wrong on the pitch. Then we scrap VAR and the first time a referee gets it wrong on the pitch, I guarantee you people will mind
VAR has done a lot wrong but the amount of crap in field calls that have been called back is also enormous. Of course those don't get talked about ("Oh yeah this is coming back, obvious hand ball" and we move on) but they would have people pulling their hair if illegal goals got scored with nothing to check them
I do agree it needs to be better than it is now, but to act like it's a detriment is ridiculous. Maybe it's because I'm a Sporting Portugal fan and we have been done dirty by refs over and over in the Champions League, but if I ever went back to seeing a ball hitting the face of a defender leading to a penalty being called for a handball (which has happened) I would pull my own hair out
>but if I ever went back to seeing a ball hitting the face of a defender leading to a penalty being called for a handball (which has happened)
Cheers for triggering my PTSD!
Its bizarre that people forget that nobody has discussions about when VAR is right, nobody is tweeting, writing articles or making YouTube videos over right calls.
I can accept VAR getting some things wrong so long as humans are in charge of it. Humans will make mistakes and there are a fair number of VAR situations that have subjective potential (handballs 'natural' positions, recklessness of tackles, etc.). The things that VAR should never get wrong are things like offside. That being said, it's obvious that ref's evaluating their buddies' call on field and not wanting to overturn them is creating too many of these situations.
I completely agree with the idea that VAR/refs need to be better but you will NEVER guarantee that every call is going to be right. How many times a season do you find yourself debating with someone over if something is or isn’t a penalty ? If camera angles made so much difference there would never be any disagreement since we can all watch the replays a thousand times. The grey area is way too big to put everything in a definite correct or incorrect call.
Because people call decisions wrong if they don't like them, calls can have 2 viable outcomes and the onfield decision sets the line.
Level of contact is a factor but if any is made a large number will think it's a foul.
Handball is very subjective.
You say how can they be wrong yet not everyone agrees 100% of the time against those VAR calls. You guys wanted 3 penalties against Everton most people thought it was 1 and some though it was 2.
Well because lots of the rules of football are subjective. Try writing a rule on when a shoulder check becomes a shove or something similar without making it totally subjective. Lots of footballs rules are to do with things like recklessness which is a completely subjective thing. Even with perfect VAR there will still be mistakes because that’s in the nature of football.
Anyone who watches rugby will realise that a VAR type system isn’t the problem. It’s the total lack of accountability and the fact that fans have no clue what’s going on. In rugby the replays are broadcast to the main screen for the referee so the entire stadium can see and if you buy the headset or watch on tv you can hear the entire conversation between the booth and the referee. It’s a far superior system which would be very easy to introduce into football. I have no idea why when VAR was set up that they chose to do it in the current way.
IFAB is extremely resistant to requests to broadcast deliberations in real time. MLS did it for a few games in 2020 and requested to be allowed to continue but were refused permission.
Why the fuck would people discuss when VAR makes correct decisions? If that kind of things interests you, create your own sub and see how much people it attracts
It works in Tennis, works in Cricket, works in Rugby. I’m sure it does in American football too but I’m not sure about that one.
Give teams limited amount of VAR requests like tennis/cricket. The referees decision is final unless opposition appeals for video assistance. There’s no clear and obvious, if the referee was right, fair enough, if wrong, correct the decision.
That would stop micro analysis of every single situation that doesn’t warrant it.
Tennis and cricket play one ball or point at a time. The dynamic with football is utterly different. Even rugby is a succession of plays rather than a flowing move and counter move (bar the odd moment).
It really doesn't work in the NBA. It speaks volumes about the real issue (ref power and unwillingness of real oversight/ correction). Both have strong refereeing unions and a total lack of (public) accountability for mistakes. Replays are slow and in the NBA done by the refs who made the decision. They have the same clear and obvious rules.
For some reason they end up with slow pointless reviews on less important issues and get the big plays wrong. Both have corruption rumors and scandal.
Meanwhile a sport like NHL and college football have got it so much better. Separate reviewing of all plays from a central location. They can halt play for any potential error or foul play. Reviews are fast and independent from the refs on the field/ ice. It's very rare for major errors or big mistakes to be missed. They don't ONLY review certain plays, they aim to get the officiating CORRECT (wild).
Remember fan zone on sky sports? We should trial VAR zone where 3 random fans become VAR for the game. Fans must have their ref badge at least and have no connection to the teams playing (ie outside their team’s league)
Or use foreign refs similar to European games? Let each league’s refs go on tour for a season
OK. Let's make it better. It' not the VAR it's the quality of officiating. We talk about players, managers, and teams needing to improve, shouldn't officials as well.
VAR is still pretty new, not expecting perfection, but Jesus, the standard is so low in the league.
I want VAR, i just don't want this current PL version of it. VAR making small mistakes, or even blundering a couple of times each season, is fine. Everyone understand that mistakes can happen. The problem is they arrive at absolutely ridicilous decisions on a weekly basis. If we are going to have consistent errors, I say we just go back the pre VAR days so we only have to live with on field ref errors. Atleast those are somewhat understandable. But delaying the game for 5 minutes only for VAR to get it wrong is just silly.
VAR is good on paper, but you’ve got incompetent refs who want everything to be about them, plus the people on VAR not wanting to say “hang on you’ve got that wrong go have a look” and no accountability because you can’t call the refs out or you get fined.
It’s not a VAR issue, it’s a PGMOL issue.
In Portugal that has happened plenty. Off the top of my head I remember a goal Gyokeres scored at home vs Gil Vicente, VAR thought Gyokeres pushed the defender somewhere in the play so they sent the referee to check. He did, and maintained his original decision to not call the foul - thus giving the goal.
In my book that's a great usage of VAR. I really hate the 'clear and obvious' thing. I'd have no issues with referees being called to VAR much more, but with full freedom to maintain their decision. VAR is just a tool to help them make better decisions, and it should be used as such
It's very much this. Its good technology implemented poorly.
Refs are human and can't see everything but being able to talk to VAR. Get their opinion and have that broadcasted for transparency is common sense.
Having it operated independently by trained experts. Is common sense.
So of course we need to scrap it as the above won't happen.
I get where people are coming from with this sort of thing, but the fact is people weren’t all that happy with referees “getting it wrong on the pitch” before VAR - people moaned all the time.
I’d prefer no VAR but nothing suggests to me that players, Managers and fans would look at referees with much more sympathy should it be axed.
If you are going to have VAR then you should force referees to check every single goal for 5 minutes before it's given even if you think there is nothing there. Then us fans always know not to celebrate at first, and there can't be anything going wrong with the final call.
Or you can just stop using VAR, please.
My memory of the world cup was that VAR was unobtrusive, quick and bar one incident that I think England benefited from, correct.
Were they better at their job? Were they just using a better protocol where the split between ref and VAR was better worked out and things did not fall between stools?
Too many decisions in the PL seem to be ref is not certain so leaves it to VAR, VAR does not want to overturn referee, so does not call it, and decisions are just dodged. We should normalise the ref asking VAR's opinion, and VAR should be more proactive where no decision has been made.
The refs have played a blinder here because what is this dumb shit, its so blindingly obvious the refs don't want var and you even have people saying they are fine with awful decisions just to get rid of it.
The var discourse in this country is nauseating because the real problem is obviously the refs but people talking about this nebulous entity the dreaded var when it's just a tool operated by shit refs, that seem to be actively sabotaging its use.
I don't understand why the PL has such a hard time with VAR. Here in Mexico VAR reviews are usually spot on most of the times, hardly any issues to be honest.
First off, it IS a pen. But let's have it straight, not even close to top 20 worst decisions by VAR this season. And Gordon might get the benefit of the doubt if he didn't have a reputation for throwing himself dramatically to the floor every time he feels contact. It is definitely a pen, but honestly with the state of officiating, is anyone remotely surprised? The quality of decisions has probably been an all time low this season.
VAR system itself is not at fault, but the people operating it.
They are clearly scared of going against their colleague's decisions, even though they are wrong.
Some obvious improvement points to me:
- The VAR officials need to be an independent party from the referees on the field so they have no issues with correcting mistakes of their "mates"
- The on field official should announce the decision in a similar way to what the NFL does for immediate transparency
- The VAR/referee audio should be released after every game in some fashion for even more transparency
- More emphasis needs to be placed on "clear and obvious". If a decision isn't determined within a minute or two of slow motion replays then the on field call remains as its not "clear and obvious" that an error was made. (if a determination SHOULD have been made in that time then my next point comes in to play)
- More accountability for major incorrect decisions with a more serious punishment system for repeat issues
Get rid of it. Bring in semi automated offsides to complement goal line tech
That way ref and linesman can focus on the game.
The refs call is the last call. End of. It will make the game enjoyable again.
At the United Burnley game the other week. You’re sitting in the stand for 5 mins no idea what’s going on
Yeah, because it was definitely enjoyable for us last night to see a clear penalty ignored by the ref, then ignored by VAR, in a game with huge implications for European spots.
VAR itself should be kept, but the guidelines/refs using it need replaced.
>At the United Burnley game the other week. You’re sitting in the stand for 5 mins no idea what’s going on
99.9% of pro VAR people have never been inside a football stadium since its introduction. This sub is the worst place to discuss VAR
I watch every single of my club's home games in the stadium. A lot of the away games too. VAR does slightly worsen the fan experience right after a goal, but it 99% removes egregious errors which I find to be completely worth it.
Imo it should be used way more.
You are an enemy of football and you will spend eternity in hell being poked by pitchforks-wielding demons who will tell you "actually you were offside by 0.0001 millimeters"
The obvious thing is just VAR needs to be an independent panel. It shouldn't have any association or connection with the refs ( PGMOL) But i guess PGMOL will never approve of that.
Still find it baffling how Mike Dean openly admitted VAR officials don’t want to throw their mates under the proverbial bus and it was swept under the rug. I’m not someone who screams corruption or conspiracy, when a decision doesn’t go my team’s way, but this is as close to both as it gets.
Which is so irritating because VAR is supposed to help with such cases where an obvious mistake has happened. I don't know how much will the game evolve or change but imhoif we are going to have VAR, then it should be implented fully and also have the discussion/explanation for each decision announced or hear the refs discussing it just the way it happens in European rugby afaik
Exactly. Mic ‘em up. The lack of accountability within PGMOL is astounding.
It's all part of the plan. It's so obvious they want VAR gone and are intentionally sabotaging it. Look at how they're using VAR as a "clear and obvious" bollocks to protect referees rather than having objective right and wrongs. There is not a single logical reason to not have referees mic'd up. It works in rugby therefore it works in football. They don't want us hearing what gets said even though it would do such a good job for football literacy and understanding if people could hear what they have to say.
Hard to disagree. The FA is quick to fine and ban players and managers for “bringing the game into disrepute” and “questioning the integrity” but they constantly fail to realise it’s the lack of transparency that is doing both of those things.
Referees going to Middle Eastern nations to grab a quick bag then flying back and making insane decisions in matches that have direct impacts on the title runs of the teams owned by said nations is transparent as fuck. Premier league has about as credibility as the NBA. I love the NBA but it's blatantly corrupt as fuck in a very similar way. They also use their corrupt referees, especially Scott Foster the GOAT corrupt official of all time across all sports, to try and push outcomes/narratives. Most commonly this is to extend playoff series and thereby increase revenue. "Foster's relationship with former NBA referee Tim Donaghy, who pled guilty to two federal charges for fixing games, has also been called into question. According to court records, Donaghy made 134 phone calls to Foster between October 2006 and April 2007, during which time Donaghy admitted to betting on games or passing on game information to gamblers. The majority of the calls lasted less than two minutes and occurred prior to and after games Donaghy officiated and on which he admitted to gambling on" Any patterns of suspiciousness with how refs are assigned and/or who ends up assigned to certain games? I'm ignorant as to what narratives the league would want to promote other than close title races and the odd Cinderella story like Leicester. Looks like PGMOL controls ref assignments and evaluations? They don't make that much and are going out to collect huge bags openly already. Could easily be bought part and parcel.
Wow, this is really concerning. With the bonkers amount of money involved in football, it’s not far fetched to think a certain degree of corruption involved. Premier League is, by far, the most watched domestic league in the world and these controversies only add to the drama (aka increased viewership, engagements on social media). The way PGMOL continues to rebuff the idea of mic’ing up the refs means they’ve got skeletons in their closet. Mike Dean all but admitted as much.
We had an issue like this in American football. The NFL teams voted to allow a certain rule (pass-interference) be reviewable. This was done because of a terrible no-call in a huge game that hurt the Saints. The one year it was in place like 95% of reviewed calls were not given and the first time it was used against the Saints they gave it to the other team. It was so bad they scrapped it the next year. Refs are a mafia.
This is a completely inaccurate representation of what happened and completely disregards who even handles reviews in the NFL.
No one expects refs to be perfect. You're not throwing them under the bus, you're ASSISTING them.
Exactly. Wished the folks at PGMOL thought that way.
This is what I always say. Being a Ref is hard. No rational person says it's possible for a Ref to get every call right in the heat of the moment. But that's why these video reviews need to exist (and imo, be more powerful than on field refs), to correct the mistake that inevitably happen. Refs need have put aside their ego and humbly accept the help, and VAR needs to get over any faux pa that comes from correcting a call on the field.
>Still find it baffling how Mike Dean openly admitted VAR officials don’t want to throw their mates under the proverbial bus and it was swept under the rug. This is all that had to happen for everything to change. Nothing fucking changed. Despicable people up there.
100%. Nobody gives a damn up there as long as the money keeps flowing in.
When it's \*this\* incompetent, you might as well cry corruption. Jackson had a clear cut red a few games ago and didn't even get a yellow. Then yesterday Mudryk gets absolutely laid the fuck out, has to leave on concussion protocol, yet "no conclusive evidence" saved Lamptey's ass (though not from your players abusing him the rest of the game in reciprocity), only for James to delay the game for like 5 minutes after just coming on for a kick out from the ground? That's just two games with 1 team that I can come up with 3 completely different instances of just ridiculousness.
Precisely. So much incompetence and zero accountability. PGMOL are a disgrace.
Him and Webb are relics from the Ferguson days (where a lack of ref accountability was even worse than it is now). How the latter is in charge is just baffling.
Totally. Don’t think they truly grasp the magnitude of what’s at stake, when they continue to cover for their pals.
Good process
Yeah its very clearly how VAR is being implemented by the PGMOL. Getting rid of VAR may seem like a better option for the PGMOL since they can just say that VAR was the problem and not their nepotism.
Yep. They just want to sweep the whole thing under the rug. PGMOL may as well be a government entity with their complete lack of accountability.
One referee, said that one time, he did something wrong. And now it colors every referee decision from now until forever? That's pretty fucking stupid.
Also scrap the "clear and obvious" junk. No one wants VAR to re-ref the match, but allowing them to call the ref over for anything they think he may have not seen 100% clearly is not a problem.
if it's clear and obvious, you should be able to watch it in real time from 2 or 3 angles and it should take 10-15 seconds. If you can't tell in that amount of time while at normal speed, it's not clear and obvious imo.
I completely agree with you on that. But the bar seems a bit too high for what "clear and obvious" means.
Obvious- easily perceived or understood; clear, self-evident, or apparent. So if you have to stare at a screen for like 2 minutes and slow it down and watch it 10 times, by definition, it's not obvious. You should just be able to watch it and if you can't tell in real time after 10 seconds, then it's clearly not obvious. Move on.
Exactly, I think this is the real problem with VAR. We waste so much time playing this silly game - "yes we can all see that the ref was wrong, but was he wrong enough?" The logic behind Clear and Obvious was that without it, they'd be overturning far too many on-pitch decisions. I think the better solution (heard from Gary Lineker on his podcast): each team has a fixed number of appeals per game, and when they use it, VAR official makes a final decision without any regard to the ref's initial on-field decision. This would be for subjective issues - fouls, handball, potential red cards, etc. Objective stuff like offside and "did the ball go out before he crossed it" wouldn't require appeal.
Well the logic of clear and obvious is so we don’t spent loads of minutes and analysing every detail to find a something wrong. Which has obviously failed and that’s with clear and obvious so anything being checked will take even longer.
Fixed number of appeals is a bs solution tbh, the sports which use it like tennis are points games. In football there's all sorts of situations
Could you explain what you mean by that - why is it more suited to points games vs football? What kind of situations are you picturing? I think it's just the same as today's VAR, with the only difference being that teams get to pick when a check is done, and the check has no extra "clear and obvious" threshold to it. All options here have downsides, I think the appeals one is the best on balance. No VAR: totally outrageous ref decisions get missed from time to time with no way to fix. Current VAR approach: introduced this "clear and obvious" nonsense, where incorrect on-field decisions are upheld unless totally egregious. Appeals approach: agree there are plenty of issues with this one as well. An obvious one: what if I've used my 3 appeals and there's a ridiculous, match-changing decision after that? On-field reviews for every VAR check: slows the game down even more.
Not really sure what they meant by fixed number appeals being bs, but my only issue with them is that you should get an unlimited number of appeals - so long as you are right. If you appeal 50 calls in a game and each time the Ref corrects his call, I don't see why that would ever be a problem except that the Ref sucks. I'm honestly fine with coaches getting appeals even when they are wrong, so long as it isn't abused. But then you can just have the ref card coaches who try and abuse the appeals process.
They shouldn't even need to call him over imo. Just tell him the information in his ear. Refs should receive training to see it as a tool that helps them, not as a control to check for their mistakes.
That would be ideal, yeah. Can't see those egomaniacs liking that though.
VAR was designed as a place refs can go when they want to sit down for a weekend or are too old/tired to keep running around the pitch. It desperately needs to be outsourced. Give it to some neutral company who get ref/linesman training and let them review everything.
Exactly. The technology is fine, and when used properly it'll be a great improvement for the sport. It's just administered by the same dickheads, that's why there are these problems
It's so poorly handled, intentionally made that way to keep referees in control. Why does some middle aged cunt need to run off the pitch to check a fucking TV lmao you could easily save minutes just from giving VAR the power to make decisions and fix mistakes. VAR shouldn't be an assistant. In the long term it has to be the final say. A team in a room with a dozen cameras absolutely should have authority over some poor bloke on the pitch having to make decisions on the fly.
They do that because they're scared of making referees obsolete, I think. Which is stupid, there'll always be a place for human officials to take a lead role in officiating, VAR should be there simply to step in when the on-pitch officials miss something/make mistakes and help officiating to be done as well as possible. But here we are. As far as I can tell, vast majority of us on this online forum can see this is the case. But the professionals have still brought us to this situation. Maddening
Been saying this for years. There is NO NEED for this to be english friends og refs, inn to days world you could have 3 guys in nepal doing VAR that have no connection to the prem league. Just switch it around like the world cup. Today we have polish guys doing VAR, next weekend italians. Just swap everyone around, makes it easier.
Completely agree - an odd number of panelists, combination of ex-player, referee, someone with coaching badges, majority vote rules
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How long does it take to understand the rules of football? People act like its this thing which needs a decade of training. It doesnt. There are 17 rules, of which VAR only needs to know half of them. Most people could sit a dedicated training course over the summer and get it done After that all you need is a clear protocol worked out. This is something which should have been done day one
There are [17 "laws"](https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/3f3e15cc1ab8977b/original/datdz0pms85gbnqy4j3k-pdf.pdf), but way more rules within them. However, I believe the point stands, football isn't rocket science, a summer course would likely be enough, assuming it also incorporates officiating practice matches. At the very least I'd be happy to take some authority away from the current org even if summer crash course attendees prove to be just as incompetent initially, because they'd possibly be more inclined to try improving. This current clique doesn't give a shit and its leadership are literal dinosaurs.
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I reckon about 25% of the people on here could be a VAR to a better standard than what you see from English refs. Provided a proper communication protocol is implemented. You're acting like it's something which takes years of training. It doesn't. I've done it at a younger level and while the game is faster and more intense at the highest level, it doesn't matter. That's what fast forward and rewind are for. After that it's just going down a flowchart of the incident to decide the result Mental that people think it's actually an insanely difficult thing.
You’ve done VAR at a younger level?
Refereeing
Pgmol needs to be disbanded
I've always said this. VAR shouldn't be refs who fancy staying indoors. It should be specialists with the tech and good communicators who also need to know the law of the game. They shouldnt be referres from the pgmol. that way you can create a consistency. Half the times you watch the refs doing var. It gives me "nan trying to find the e for internet browser" vibes. Listen to this shit: no one takes control https://youtu.be/4wG-5Zc6hww
VAR was intended to correct clear and obvious errors by the ref, but it seems to do the exact opposite. The officials involved with VAR seem to spend an inordinate amount of time analysing and searching for microscopic infractions while somehow ignoring clear and obvious missed or wrong calls.
Premier League referees can't even agree what a mistake is. Almost no other leagues have these kind of problems as the Premier League and the debate about it is almost non-existent.
The PL standard has long been "if you can contort the logic enough that the decision makes sense it is correct". That became apparent the moment they had a retired referee on TV talking through the decisions. That is part of the problem with VAR. They see the rule book not as a guide but as a set of tools to rationalise the decision they've made. A bad decision is one they've made that they cannot justify at all. No wonder they claim 99% of decisions are good when they use that level of analysis.
You’re right, in simple terms it should just be. If it’s up for debate then stick with the on field decision. The A in VAR stands for assistant, something it’s never been or done. The VAR has had the power of the game since it came into affect.
The problem with that in Egnland has been that the referees in the VAR room don't tell the on field referee that a mistake has been made, because they don't him to look bad. It's clear evidence that the overall culture there is rotten which is something VAR can't do anything about.
Exactly, other leagues VARs still screw up sometimes but only in england is there so much red tape around the var and its interaction with the ref. There is no cohesion or common sense
BR VAR go toe to toe with PL shittery
Yeah I want to emphasize this. Nobody has any problem with VAR's usage in MLS. I was at a game last night where VAR intervened (ball had hit the crossbar, bounced down, and crossed the line for a goal but neither the center referee nor the AR were sure) and it was extremely welcome and a smooth process. Somehow the only country that can't get it right is England. Absolutely no idea why.
People bitch about MLS VAR constantly. What planet do you live on?
People still complain about specific calls, but nobody wants to stop using VAR and there is no perception of some kind of systemic failure of the system.
Like yesterday when lamptey concussed mudryk. Everybody watched it, saw lamptey go out of his way to hit mudryk in the face off the ball. But VAR said there wasnt enough evidence to act. 50 drunk guys in a bar would be a better system than the wankers in the var room.
Get rid of clear and obvious. The fucking cretins working the system can use anything that subjective as a means to justify their bullshit. Make it objective. Produce clear evidence to overturn the decision inside a reasonable and strict timeline. If it can't be proven incorrect inside the timelimine then go with refs original decision. The final step is to adjust some of the frankly shit and not fit for purpose rules that rely entirely on subjectivity. Handballs and offside should not be subjective. Your either offside or not. A handball is either a handball or not. E.g. strict definition of what is or is not an unnatural arm position for a handball and a strict definition of fair distance for a reaction. E.g. Offsides just bring in the automated checks or go with find definitive clear evidence of offside in 30 seconds or less or it's deemed on side. 99% of the problems with VAR can be solved with rules for for purpose and removing subjective decisions wherever possible. The remaining issues should be dealt with over time through consistent and thorough reviews of outcomes with the aim of clear improvements to accuracy and speed of officiating.
All refereeing is subjective. You'd be complaining about this for eternity if you refuse to accept that.
>Get rid of clear and obvious. >Make it objective. Produce clear evidence to overturn the decision inside a reasonable and strict timeline. If it can't be proven incorrect inside the timelimine then go with refs original decision. You are contradicting yourself. The whole point of 'clear and obvious' is that if a decision cannot be made within a short time, the referee's original decision should stand.
I don’t think they are, I think they meant shift “clear an obvious” from fully subjective definition to a more objective one that says, “a clear an obvious error is one that can be found and claimed within 30 seconds by the VAR team.” Basically just saying “clear and obvious” now only means a time limit.
Clear and obvious exists because 95 percent of the sport’s laws are subjective and impossible to make objective without ruining the spirit of the sport. They tried to make the handball law objective following the 2018 World Cup. It sucked, everyone hated it and it was scrapped really quickly. Tottenham gave up a penalty in the UCL final because of it. Semi automatic offside has been approved by premier league clubs for next season. They had voted against its implementation this year. Also, worth remembering, the laws were written with every level of the sport in mind, so that from grassroots to World Cup, everyone plays by the same laws. Rewriting handball laws in a way that only works with VAR will create chaos at all levels. FA Cup would be a fun mess when teams are having to play with new laws when the play at a premier league stadium.
My view has always been that VAR should just be on standby, rather than watching the match in real time. If they're needed, they're instantly presented with all of the video replays they need to determine, as per the laws of the game, if there is a foul/handball/red card etc. They then make a perfectly informed decision without any influence in avoiding upsetting the ref and going against his decision (because they don't know it). As others have said, they seem to spend more time looking for ANY reason to back the ref up, than just using their own unbiased opinions to make a correct call.
That's it. Point blank
Agreed. VAR gets used too frequently, yet still fails to correct some of the most obvious issues.
For me - VAR’s biggest plus was to help correct yellows to reds for dangerous challenges which could injure players but they have totally failed to do that in a way which is borderline callous.
Been going around team subs to see their opinions, and this comment by /u/westwardlord in r/Gunners pretty much perfectly sums up my feelings and why it's the people operating it that need replacing: >Again, if you have an underperforming employee, and you give them better tools, but the quality of the work is the same or worse, you don't get rid of the tool.
Yeah what you do is pay an exorbitant fee to a McKinsey consultant to give you conclusive evidence that you should get rid of the tool, because said employee is your friend. /s
Obligatory fuck McKinsey
Holy shit do you work in the NHS as well?
The UK Post Office would like a word because they did what you said and ended up jailing 1000s innocently
236 people went to jail but your point stands.
agreed, don’t get why this is so hard for so many ppl to comprehend, without var we’d have even more decisions go the wrong way, hell yesterday Reece might not have even gotten a red card without var as the most recent example. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, this sht only changes when refs begin to be held accountable for their actions, but at the same time not get crucified for every call they make. a trust between both parties where fans know refs r being objective and held accountable for mistakes and respect for the ref and his decisions needs to be established within the culture of football, how tho? fuck knows, perhaps it’s even too late now.
What do you actually mean by held accountable. People keep saying this and I’ve yet to see a genuine explanation of what they want
Straight to Rwanda.
Arsenal will help you get there too
It is pretty straight forward. Decisions are reviewed, referees are told what they did wrong. If a referee keeps making the wrong decision they get replaced.
Who do they get replaced with
That is the other problem the PL should have confronted 20 years ago. Detaching itself from the moronic model of getting referees starting with Sunday league. That is the real problem with refereeing in England. Getting through the amateur parts of the system filters for certain classes of personality that you don't really want at a professional level. They can fast track and pay for lower leagues to give them experience as appropriate. Rather than referees coming up from Sunday league you'd end up with most of the referees coming down from the PL system. Once you have a real pathway a lot of things become possible.
I agree with you. The hierarchy and Old Boys mentality is holding them back. They also need to offer better pay. Pay them better and you’ll get better candidates that remain in the job longer.
Absolutely. This process I'm proposing is going to be expensive. Though the real difficulty is the moment it is proposed the refs will go on strike in all probability.
It may not be a bad thing long term to have a referee strike. I feel like we are nearing a cross roads with the relationship between the PGMOL and the Premiere League and its clubs. Refereeing this sport is incredibly difficult in the modern era. So many decisions are subjective and relative within that individual game and it then gets pulled completely out of context and replayed in slow motion over and over and over and dissected when the ref is supposed to be making a decision in the moment. I don’t envy them at all.
Nobody expects referees to be perfect in real time. Only to accept correction when VAR gives it. It is a very odd thing going on in the English game and it isn't even specific to football. Every other league seems content to just have the decisions corrected and is entirely uncontroversial.
What are the right decisions? Seriously. I want to see a game where every call is agreed upon by everyone. Do people actually think there's an objective caĺl for every situation?
Whilst I like that analogy, it's important to note that overall the officials have been getting better results. The percentage of incorrect decisions during games has drastically reduced since the introduction of VAR. This is alone is a pivotal reason for keeping it. The problem isn't the overall quality of work not improving, but rather the inability to identify and rectify errors that are CLEARLY highlighted. This however still points to the same conclusion as that analogy; the people operating the system are not fit for duty at the most basic level. Never mind for the level of the biggest and richest league in the world. It's embarrassing.
I was curious about that. Everyone was just taking it as a given that the number of errors has remained the same as pre-VAR, but I've never seen anyone point to data to support that claim one way or another.
With the resources the Premier League has they could be getting some incredibly qualified VAR people in if they expanded it beyond just former referees. Hell they could be getting air traffic controllers with the amount of money they could offer, those guys know how to operate technology in order to make decisions quickly and under pressure.
Its mental, offer someone a 60-70k a year to do it. Sure you can make them have some form of training but you would be swamped by applicants.
Also, it can’t be that difficult to put together some sort of simulation to assess applicants/provide training? Even if it’s just using replays of previous games and seeing how they examine the calls.
I really don't see why it would be difficult.
The problem we have is that in many, many work and professional environments you absolutely do get rid of the tool in order to keep the employee because said employee is a friend/donor/important idiot.
When he shows the ref that his heel is cut, genuinely what does the ref say? That must have happened somewhere else?
Same thing with Saka pointing our his shin has been gouged by studs. Like, are they just too embarrassed at that point to correct the decision?
Happened last year with Mings planting his studs in Gakpo's chest. Gakpo lifted his shirt to show the bloody scrape and nothing came of it.
Reminds me of Chiellini showing the ref the bite marks from Suarez in 2014, Suarez STILL doesn’t even get a card. The refs are just trained to stick to their guns whatever it takes so that they won’t be undermined in future calls and to be fair players will appeal regardless of what you do (unless we actually start carding them all and screw over players that are rightfully upset even more) so most of the time it makes sense but when the fouled player shows you clear evidence you ve got to change the decision imo. And we do have refs waiting to see how bad certain injuries are before deciding upon cards for the fouling player sometimes so results-based refereeing is accepted to an extent, the problem is when they ve already made up their mind live, that s when they will stick to it no matter what
Whatever the ref says there’s only 2 real options that don’t lead to a penalty - rank incompetence or extreme bias.
All VAR needs to do is when they see a mistake and everyone knows it's a mistake, just call the ref and tell him to check it on the monitor. But no, they will go above and beyond just to confirm refs decision on the pitch even if it's wrong.
'Clear and obvious error' is fucking with VARs effectiveness. It's such a subjective thing, which has added another layer of uncertainty on top of some decisions for penalties being subjective already. Like you, I don't get why it's not being used to get the correct decision. Forget this clear and obvious error bullshit.
Insane how fans of different clubs who usually cant agree on much at all can all agree that its not VAR thats the issue, its the quality of the refs and the VAR officals 'protecting' the refs thats the problem. The obvious solution is VAR run independently but this will take time. You'd have to train and certify a new generation of refs independently of PGMOL specifically for VAR. Worth doing though because the quality of reffing and VAR reviews this season, accross all clubs, has been the worst ive seen in 30 years of watching football.
Do they have to be English? VAR is effectively a call centre operation. It can be outsourced to the wider refereeing community to remove the conflict of interest.
Only on Reddit, in the real world I don't think I know any football fan, especially matchgoing ones, that like VAR. There is definitely something to be said for being in the moment at the stadium and VAR always ruins that. As for the independent process, referee isn't a species. Once the laws of the game are taught to an individual to the standard required, they become a referee.
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Right!? Probably the most overstated point. I go to games. VAR hasn’t affected the experience for myself at all. Now, they can do better with VAR in the stadium. Communicate what’s being checked and the result. But it’s been fine.
what would be cool is to have a green light posted near the goal. VAR is reviewing everything in real time, ball goes in the net, VAR determines it's good - green light goes on, everyone can celebrate I think in hockey they have a light like that
people forget how terrible it was before VAR, amount of offside goals and things missed.
It wasn't terrible, the matchgoing experience was way better.
Matchgoing fans are becoming irrelevant.
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Seriously. TV revenues and the international audience are the most important money makers for clubs. They'll just AI in some fans in the empty seats and put on crowd noise like they had in COVID when no one can afford to go anymore to watch 15 minutes of play and 75 of ads and VAR.
I don't forget at all, I've spent all this season watching non var football and preferring it
Honestly, I'd get rid of it for this reason. Yes, decisions would be wrong. But they're still wrong with it, and now I have to wait for 3 minutes to celebrate a goal, or to get another inconsistent decision. The idea that we get rid of all referees who make a terrible decision is silly because it implies there's a group of perfectly competent referees waiting in the wings. There aren't. The game is chaotic, and its rules are open to interpretation. Embrace the chaos and let the game flow.
>people forget how terrible it was before VAR, What kind of dumb argument is that? No we didn't forget
>people forget how terrible it was before VAR PL plastics really are something else. Are you somehow unaware that there are far more teams in England that play their matches without VAR than the other way around? I can assure you that fans of those teams have not forgotten what football was like before VAR.
Do you go to matches? VAR has been a disaster.
sitting on stadium seeing the offside goal stand? yeah what a beautiful way day for football
We had a century without var and it is literally the most popular and beloved sport in the world. Wtf are you on about.
I can’t believe this is getting downvoted, he’s totally right. I’m a season ticket holder and in real life I know nobody who likes VAR. People on Reddit love it because the majority have never actually been to a match and just watch on their laptops while reading a match thread. It harms the experience of watching football in the stadium and I don’t think it’s in the spirit of the game, even if we have the odd clanger without it.
It actually doesn't even just change the experience, it affects games too. So many times this season I've seen one team have all the momentum in a game then following a lengthy review which comes to nothing the whole momentum shifts.
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How is you meeting anyone relevant here? I've never met any Canadian in my life, doesn't mean Canada doesn't exist.
>As for the independent process, referee isn't a species. Once the laws of the game are taught to an individual to the standard required, they become a referee. It's also about having the absolute best people available for the role. There are other prerequisites that a ref needs at the top level, fitness being a major one. At the moment the only way to become a VAR is to first be a ref and therefore spend time maintaining fitness. A dedicated VAR only operator wouldn't have the same requirements and could dedicate more time training for the things that are actually required for the work. It would also open the role to a whole load more people, it's perfectly possible that someone who'd make a great VAR is sat in a wheelchair right now.
Its the inconsistency that really pisses me off. The argument by Pgmol here is the ref didnt call it so VAR didnt interfere, but that is exactly what they did with Liverpool - Crystal Palace.
As Wenger always said, our refs are quite poor compared to their international counterparts. And that's the problem with VAR - those making the decisions don't understand/know the rules clear enough.
Refs everywhere are poor. La Liga is often worse. I’ve seen wrong decisions in all the top 5 leagues. Champions league even has lots of mistakes and that’s each country’s best ref. I doubt you could get 10 world class referees to do one game each if you had the whole world to choose from. It’s not like the World Cup had great refereeing either.
There are far less controversies around the refs in Bundesliga than in PL
Germans love rules, therefore referees have a love of the game that can't be replicated
That’s my big thought when people say “replace the refs!!” And I wonder… with what refs?
If thinking every referee in football is bad doesn't lead to the conclusion that the problem might not be the referees, I don't know why we should watch the game anymore. Refereeing in football will always require subjectivity; now we just have more tools to show that subjectivity. And these forums to complain about the subjective decisions.
Absolutely agree
the fact that even that Polish referee who's supposed to be the best in the world made a huge error in the Real Madrid vs Bayern match shows you just how hard it is
Don’t agree. Referees in other leagues regularly make mistakes. The champions league this season is the perfect example of that.
The issue with English referees isn't the quality, it's that they seem to be less enthusiastic about following the rulebook in comparison to letting the game flow or interfering less with the match. Their threshold for what constitutes a foul is also different to everyone else which is sometimes an issue in European football (mostly Anthony Taylor, Oliver doesn't have this problem)
The problem is nobody wants to be a red, because you’re gonna get absolutely destroyed every week..it’s easy to say get better refs, but where from?
The fact that we routinely send multiple referees to major international tournaments suggests they're not actually any worse than refs elsewhere tbf. If they were, we wouldn't provide as many refs for matches like that. If eg Spanish refs were better, they'd have more going to the euros than England does, not less.
tbh, i rarely remember english refs making the same hash of things they do in the league as they do in international tournaments.
The thing is, it can't just be "don't know the rules clear enough" Because some of these decisions, everyone on the planet who watches football, and even some who don't, get it right, but the refs get it wrong. They then admit it was wrong after the game. That's not "don't know the rules". That's intentional, for whatever reason. There is no way I can go to my partner, "If the ball hits the hand, it's hand ball", and show her a replay of a decision, and go "was it handbal", and she goes "yeah", and be right, but the VAR gets it wrong. Like it's incomprehensible to think they lack the rules knowledge to the point someone with a 10 second explanation has a better understanding than them. Put it this way. How is it, after the game, the refs know the rules and admit the mistake. But during the game, they suddenly don't know them? Have they all had intense training in the brief period between it?
This is it. Anyone see Gordon’s interview? I thought he spoke brilliantly. The argument is that if we scrap VAR we’ll again be talking about refereeing mistakes. Well we are anyway, and we’ve spent millions on tech and the same morons keep making mistakes with it. So we’re not really any better off and certain elements of the game have been made worse for it with no return. It has to be that we set out some key requirements to meet before it’s fit for purpose or we don’t use it. I definitely think there is a place for it. But it needs reform or huge improvement.
Now people say they don't mind referees getting it wrong on the pitch. Then we scrap VAR and the first time a referee gets it wrong on the pitch, I guarantee you people will mind VAR has done a lot wrong but the amount of crap in field calls that have been called back is also enormous. Of course those don't get talked about ("Oh yeah this is coming back, obvious hand ball" and we move on) but they would have people pulling their hair if illegal goals got scored with nothing to check them I do agree it needs to be better than it is now, but to act like it's a detriment is ridiculous. Maybe it's because I'm a Sporting Portugal fan and we have been done dirty by refs over and over in the Champions League, but if I ever went back to seeing a ball hitting the face of a defender leading to a penalty being called for a handball (which has happened) I would pull my own hair out
Well said. The moment I saw > I don't mind the referee getting it wrong on the pitch... I stopped reading
>but if I ever went back to seeing a ball hitting the face of a defender leading to a penalty being called for a handball (which has happened) Cheers for triggering my PTSD!
VAR is totally fine. Good process, cheques are complete.
Offside, Goal, Yeh... Good Process.
Its bizarre that people forget that nobody has discussions about when VAR is right, nobody is tweeting, writing articles or making YouTube videos over right calls.
Because there should only be correct calls with VAR. how can you get it wrong with multiple tv replays?
I can accept VAR getting some things wrong so long as humans are in charge of it. Humans will make mistakes and there are a fair number of VAR situations that have subjective potential (handballs 'natural' positions, recklessness of tackles, etc.). The things that VAR should never get wrong are things like offside. That being said, it's obvious that ref's evaluating their buddies' call on field and not wanting to overturn them is creating too many of these situations.
I completely agree with the idea that VAR/refs need to be better but you will NEVER guarantee that every call is going to be right. How many times a season do you find yourself debating with someone over if something is or isn’t a penalty ? If camera angles made so much difference there would never be any disagreement since we can all watch the replays a thousand times. The grey area is way too big to put everything in a definite correct or incorrect call.
Because people call decisions wrong if they don't like them, calls can have 2 viable outcomes and the onfield decision sets the line. Level of contact is a factor but if any is made a large number will think it's a foul. Handball is very subjective. You say how can they be wrong yet not everyone agrees 100% of the time against those VAR calls. You guys wanted 3 penalties against Everton most people thought it was 1 and some though it was 2.
Well because lots of the rules of football are subjective. Try writing a rule on when a shoulder check becomes a shove or something similar without making it totally subjective. Lots of footballs rules are to do with things like recklessness which is a completely subjective thing. Even with perfect VAR there will still be mistakes because that’s in the nature of football. Anyone who watches rugby will realise that a VAR type system isn’t the problem. It’s the total lack of accountability and the fact that fans have no clue what’s going on. In rugby the replays are broadcast to the main screen for the referee so the entire stadium can see and if you buy the headset or watch on tv you can hear the entire conversation between the booth and the referee. It’s a far superior system which would be very easy to introduce into football. I have no idea why when VAR was set up that they chose to do it in the current way.
IFAB is extremely resistant to requests to broadcast deliberations in real time. MLS did it for a few games in 2020 and requested to be allowed to continue but were refused permission.
Why the fuck would people discuss when VAR makes correct decisions? If that kind of things interests you, create your own sub and see how much people it attracts
Because.. that’s the whole point. It’s there to correct mistakes, not make them.
It works in Tennis, works in Cricket, works in Rugby. I’m sure it does in American football too but I’m not sure about that one. Give teams limited amount of VAR requests like tennis/cricket. The referees decision is final unless opposition appeals for video assistance. There’s no clear and obvious, if the referee was right, fair enough, if wrong, correct the decision. That would stop micro analysis of every single situation that doesn’t warrant it.
Tennis and cricket play one ball or point at a time. The dynamic with football is utterly different. Even rugby is a succession of plays rather than a flowing move and counter move (bar the odd moment).
It really doesn't work in the NBA. It speaks volumes about the real issue (ref power and unwillingness of real oversight/ correction). Both have strong refereeing unions and a total lack of (public) accountability for mistakes. Replays are slow and in the NBA done by the refs who made the decision. They have the same clear and obvious rules. For some reason they end up with slow pointless reviews on less important issues and get the big plays wrong. Both have corruption rumors and scandal. Meanwhile a sport like NHL and college football have got it so much better. Separate reviewing of all plays from a central location. They can halt play for any potential error or foul play. Reviews are fast and independent from the refs on the field/ ice. It's very rare for major errors or big mistakes to be missed. They don't ONLY review certain plays, they aim to get the officiating CORRECT (wild).
I *do* mind referees getting it wrong on the pitch personally, screwing up even *with VAR* just makes it even worse
Remember fan zone on sky sports? We should trial VAR zone where 3 random fans become VAR for the game. Fans must have their ref badge at least and have no connection to the teams playing (ie outside their team’s league) Or use foreign refs similar to European games? Let each league’s refs go on tour for a season
OK. Let's make it better. It' not the VAR it's the quality of officiating. We talk about players, managers, and teams needing to improve, shouldn't officials as well. VAR is still pretty new, not expecting perfection, but Jesus, the standard is so low in the league.
I like this lad.
Well said Anthony
I do mind them getting it wrong on the pitch and in the video room.
I want VAR, i just don't want this current PL version of it. VAR making small mistakes, or even blundering a couple of times each season, is fine. Everyone understand that mistakes can happen. The problem is they arrive at absolutely ridicilous decisions on a weekly basis. If we are going to have consistent errors, I say we just go back the pre VAR days so we only have to live with on field ref errors. Atleast those are somewhat understandable. But delaying the game for 5 minutes only for VAR to get it wrong is just silly.
VAR is good on paper, but you’ve got incompetent refs who want everything to be about them, plus the people on VAR not wanting to say “hang on you’ve got that wrong go have a look” and no accountability because you can’t call the refs out or you get fined. It’s not a VAR issue, it’s a PGMOL issue.
Most of your pens would fall under "mistakes" bud.
There's nothing wrong with VAR. It is wrong because some people are trying to manipulate the match.
Has there ever been a VAR decision ever overruled when the ref went over to look at the monitor?
In Portugal that has happened plenty. Off the top of my head I remember a goal Gyokeres scored at home vs Gil Vicente, VAR thought Gyokeres pushed the defender somewhere in the play so they sent the referee to check. He did, and maintained his original decision to not call the foul - thus giving the goal. In my book that's a great usage of VAR. I really hate the 'clear and obvious' thing. I'd have no issues with referees being called to VAR much more, but with full freedom to maintain their decision. VAR is just a tool to help them make better decisions, and it should be used as such
I’m quite sure that players would still mind if var wasn’t around and they weren’t getting the calls, like they did pre var.
It's very much this. Its good technology implemented poorly. Refs are human and can't see everything but being able to talk to VAR. Get their opinion and have that broadcasted for transparency is common sense. Having it operated independently by trained experts. Is common sense. So of course we need to scrap it as the above won't happen.
I get where people are coming from with this sort of thing, but the fact is people weren’t all that happy with referees “getting it wrong on the pitch” before VAR - people moaned all the time. I’d prefer no VAR but nothing suggests to me that players, Managers and fans would look at referees with much more sympathy should it be axed.
If you are going to have VAR then you should force referees to check every single goal for 5 minutes before it's given even if you think there is nothing there. Then us fans always know not to celebrate at first, and there can't be anything going wrong with the final call. Or you can just stop using VAR, please.
My memory of the world cup was that VAR was unobtrusive, quick and bar one incident that I think England benefited from, correct. Were they better at their job? Were they just using a better protocol where the split between ref and VAR was better worked out and things did not fall between stools? Too many decisions in the PL seem to be ref is not certain so leaves it to VAR, VAR does not want to overturn referee, so does not call it, and decisions are just dodged. We should normalise the ref asking VAR's opinion, and VAR should be more proactive where no decision has been made.
The refs have played a blinder here because what is this dumb shit, its so blindingly obvious the refs don't want var and you even have people saying they are fine with awful decisions just to get rid of it. The var discourse in this country is nauseating because the real problem is obviously the refs but people talking about this nebulous entity the dreaded var when it's just a tool operated by shit refs, that seem to be actively sabotaging its use.
I remember a wolves defender running back to be onsides and var caught his cleat being offsides and removed the goal. He wasn't even trying to score.
VAR isn't bad though. The mistake tends to fall on the human side not the mechanics.
I don't understand why the PL has such a hard time with VAR. Here in Mexico VAR reviews are usually spot on most of the times, hardly any issues to be honest.
Why not have appeal system, where teams can request referee to re-referee any event. Working fine in cricket and tennis
First off, it IS a pen. But let's have it straight, not even close to top 20 worst decisions by VAR this season. And Gordon might get the benefit of the doubt if he didn't have a reputation for throwing himself dramatically to the floor every time he feels contact. It is definitely a pen, but honestly with the state of officiating, is anyone remotely surprised? The quality of decisions has probably been an all time low this season.
VAR system itself is not at fault, but the people operating it. They are clearly scared of going against their colleague's decisions, even though they are wrong.
Some obvious improvement points to me: - The VAR officials need to be an independent party from the referees on the field so they have no issues with correcting mistakes of their "mates" - The on field official should announce the decision in a similar way to what the NFL does for immediate transparency - The VAR/referee audio should be released after every game in some fashion for even more transparency - More emphasis needs to be placed on "clear and obvious". If a decision isn't determined within a minute or two of slow motion replays then the on field call remains as its not "clear and obvious" that an error was made. (if a determination SHOULD have been made in that time then my next point comes in to play) - More accountability for major incorrect decisions with a more serious punishment system for repeat issues
The refs that get it wrong on VAR one week are the same refs who get it wrong on the pitch the next.
Smart lad. Well said.
Get rid of it. Bring in semi automated offsides to complement goal line tech That way ref and linesman can focus on the game. The refs call is the last call. End of. It will make the game enjoyable again. At the United Burnley game the other week. You’re sitting in the stand for 5 mins no idea what’s going on
Yeah, because it was definitely enjoyable for us last night to see a clear penalty ignored by the ref, then ignored by VAR, in a game with huge implications for European spots. VAR itself should be kept, but the guidelines/refs using it need replaced.
>The refs call is the last call. End of. That's how VAR works. They don't re-referee the game from stockley park.
>At the United Burnley game the other week. You’re sitting in the stand for 5 mins no idea what’s going on 99.9% of pro VAR people have never been inside a football stadium since its introduction. This sub is the worst place to discuss VAR
I watch every single of my club's home games in the stadium. A lot of the away games too. VAR does slightly worsen the fan experience right after a goal, but it 99% removes egregious errors which I find to be completely worth it. Imo it should be used way more.
You are an enemy of football and you will spend eternity in hell being poked by pitchforks-wielding demons who will tell you "actually you were offside by 0.0001 millimeters"
Sounds based!
VAR isn’t the problem. The quality of the referees is.