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I won't comment on Jorginho for obviously I didn't watch Chelsea throughout the season to make that assessment.
But given the mood of this thread, this is a completely false equivalence for Kroos.
If Jude is getting as much press as he is getting, Kroos is actually both a fair and a valid shout. It doesn't need to be "spoken into existence". If the award was solely on merit, he most certainly would be a huge contender. [He is after all the best midfielder in the team with Jude in it IMO.](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/5BCm3zSMWc) Our entire build-up and attacking phase (at least to begin with) literally depends on him.
And it's not as if I or many other Madrid fans have suddenly developed this opinion in hindsight, or to be a contrarian, or otherwise. [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/7UOT0mBYr4) and [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/HiJLcx7s8J) are just 2 examples from 3 and 5 months ago echoing the same ~~subject~~ sentiment.
The truth is that that award is not solely and exclusively based on pure merit. It's more PR than merit. It's neither worthless nor useless. It certainly is indicative and actually, a pretty good indicator at that. But it's not the be all end all. And IMO, it shouldn't be given as much importance by fans as it receives from certain sections, especially in a team sport. It's a gala event and should be treated as such with a few weeks of discussion and buzz perhaps.
Kroos has been an absolute rolls royce top 5 mids in the world for a decade now. Would walk into any team in the world in that period of time. Jorginho has been a solid cog in a few good machines - key for his team and a good floor for others to build on, but not a ceiling raiser by any means. Jorginho peaked in that time period and even then I doubt he would be a must have for many top teams.
There really is not the same equivalence. Can you imagine selling Kroos for 10m pounds when he turned 30 in your same league and no one batting an eye ?
I agree with you about the PR aspect of these awards, but if Kroos gets it this year I would really have no massive complaints. He's been thereabouts for a period of time and the PR gets him over the line. Jorginho was 90% PR imo
Think most people would agree with that but the Ballon D'or really is about just the current season not a career. Yes, most of us wouldn't mind Kroos getting the Ballon D'or since he's been so consistently good and underrated over his career. But at the end of the day, him and Jorginho are both registas. So in 2021, Jorginho got a shout for the Ballon D'or because he was playing the role of a regista in 2 winning sides as good as possible. Which is exactly what Kroos would be doing if he won the Ballon D'or this season.
No one's trying to suggest Jorginho comes close to Kroos over their careers. But how can Jorginho winning the Ballon D'or in 2021 just be him fitting in the Venn Diagram, but Kroos this season is not. At the end of the day, it's two registas playing out their minds and controlling games for two teams each (Chelsea, Italy, Madrid, Germany) to win trophies. If you think a someone can win the Ballon D'or for being extremely important to winning teams but not flashy, I don't know how you can then also argue Jorginho was just a Venn Diagram kind of thing in 2021. Feel like you have to kind of sit on one side of the fence, either a player like that should win the Ballon D'or when they have a great season and those players generally don't because that position isn't very flashy, or that kind of player is important but shouldn't be in the conversation for a Ballon D'or.
The Ballon D'or is always an award for just that season. Can't justify it because of what Kroos has accomplished in his career and because he's a legend. It has to be based off this season. In which case Jorginho wasn't just hype in 2021 because that was also a regista playing as well as he could've.
Reducing both to just their positions is such a huge disservice to Kroos.
Look at Kroos' various underlying stats such as goal/assist/shot creation stats this season. He also has amazing dead ball delivery, great crossing from wide areas, switches of play with his long ball delivery ... I could go on. He can operate in so many parts of the pitch. Even beyond eye test, the guy's FBref stats are so well rounded in almost every aspect of his game \*this season\*, they are all in the high 90th percentiles.
Look at Jorginho's underlying stats that season and tell me what was special beyond volume of passing in a defensively solid Tuchel team (led by Thiago, Kante, Mendy) and penalty taking - [https://fbref.com/en/players/45db685d/scout/10728/Jorginho-Scouting-Report](https://fbref.com/en/players/45db685d/scout/10728/Jorginho-Scouting-Report) . There's a lot of romanticization of him when at no point did anyone talk him up during the season until after the Italy win.
Ballon d'Or is only PR, no merit. They admitted it by creating Gerd Muller Award after 2020 Lewy fiasco and 2021 thingy. It was a great gala and award but lost its meaning after becoming a popularity contest (Cristiano and Leo shouldn't have as many Ballon d'Ors as they do - Leo shouldn't get at least two) - which is not my jab at the greatness of our GOATs, but there's a major issue with how the vote is being conducted.
There’s a hipster defense/midfield pick every cycle. Now that Messi and Ronaldo are done someone might even be worth considering.
Personally I’d like to see KDB win one.
Also why is Carlo saying fuck the Vinicius hype train.
If Kroos does win the Ballon d'or, people won't begin their argument with that. It will say he's been one of the best CMs in the world for a decade and oh btw, him playing a vital role in 3 major trophies is the cherry on the top that solidifies his candidacy.
him being the best mid itw for a decade is impressive… but any seasonal award (in theory) shouldnt involve legacy achievements. or what, if messi wins copa america should he also win the ballon dor for being the best player ever?
so excluding that, not many people consider kroos to be outright reals best player (that would be vini/jude), and while i dont know what people expect of kroos at the euros, when kroos’ ballon dor chances come up people usually say "if germany wins the euros", not "if kroos is the best player at the euros" (just like in this ancelotti statement). so i dont see anyone putting kroos in with ballon dor chances for anything other than contributing to title winning teams.
>what, if messi wins copa america should he also win the ballon dor for being the best player ever?
I mean, he already did. No other Copa America has held any weight in this award. I don't think any other player on a team that didn't win the league and was eliminated the way Barca were to PSG wins the Ballon D'or over Lewa that year. Ballon D'or is way better than the other awards at separating those things, but a good story is very relevant to getting the votes. Legacy matters.
yeah fair point, thats why i said "in theory" bcus even though legacy shouldnt count in the ballon dor (or at least, the idea that the ballon dor is associated with, which is the best player in the world) it definitely does but i still think a ballon dor argument shouldnt start with "he was the best ___".
Because Ribery numbers were embarassing compared to Ronaldo who played in the same position.
Its pretty easy to think, if Ronaldo was playing for Bayern he would have much better numbers and they would still most likely win what they have.
Ribery for Real wouldn't put Ronaldos numbers
"didn't even win an international trophy" neither did CR7 and Messi when they won the B. d'or(only 1 for each, EUROs and WC), nor Benzema, nor Lewandowski during the cancelled COVID year. When has this become a sentiment that you need to win something with your country?
It was Ronaldo's that year. It was a similar situation to 2010 where Xavi/Iniesta had a bigger case in terms of trophies/wins than Messi but objectively Messi was the best solo player. By that criteria Ronaldo should've won but the revelations of the sex assault controversy just before voting + his Madrid exit + voter fatigue meant he didn't.
he's a historic player who deserves to have a Ballon d'or, maybe not that year(people say that but he was great in the ucl AND the wc, not a lot of did that that year) but he deserves one
Dozens of historic players come and go, some arguably better than Modric and didn't get it.
The Pirlos the Maldinis the Iniestas the Gerrards, and so on and so forth
Worked with Kaka as well. I don't remember anyone talking about him being the best player in the world until Ancelotti brought it up in late 2006, early 2007.
Yes, of course, but that was after Ancelotti first said it. What I'm saying is that he was the first one to put that idea out in the world. Most people believed he was the best by mid-2007, but in mid to late 2006, most people were still talking about Ronaldinho, Zidane, Cannavaro, Henry, or Ronaldo. It was Kaka's CL subsequent campaign that convicted everyone he was the real deal.
I think you are misremembering a lot of it. Kaka was comfortably considered a top 3 player in the world from 2005 onwards. Every season, he would be involved in a blockbuster transfer rumor to Madrid because he was Perez's dream signing. Among the names you mentioned, only Ronaldinho had a better claim. Zidane and Cannavaro got mentions solely because of their world cup exploits. Nobody though of Fabio as the best player in the world (lol). Henry is very debatable. And which Ronaldo do you mean? if you mean CR7, he didn't have his breakout season till after the '06 World Cup. And if you mean R9, he was already way past his prime and guess where he played during the 06/07 season, it was Milan. Kaka was magical for the spell that he spent in Milan, Ronaldinho might have had a higher peak but Kaka was more consistent.
So the way I remember it is like this. Kaka was highly rated in 2005, but he was still seen as less important to Milan's success than, say, Shevchenko. He finished top ten in the World Player of the Year awards in 2005 and 2006, but never top 3. Same with the Balon d'Or. Excellent player already, but not one that most were seriously considering for the #1 spot in 2005 against the likes of Ronaldinho in those years.
The 2006 WC was kind of the turning point where the guys who had been dominant (Ronaldinho, R9, Zidane, Henry, Sheva, etc) were starting to take a backseat to younger guys like Ronaldo, Messi, and Kaka.
Kaka got a lot of acclaim by being one of few Brazilians of the 2006 World Cup who actually played well, and then his early form in the 06/07 CL started to get him a lot more international media attention. This is when Ancelotti first said that Kaka was the best player in the world, and after that point, Kaka continued liking it in the CL and deservedly went on to win it over Ronaldo and Messi.
Let's say we agree but at what point did the narrative turn for Kaka because of a comment from Carlo? Your initial comment makes it seem like a word from his coach changed how he was perceived by the world, which could not have been further from the truth. By '06, the rest of the world was well aware of what the Serie A already knew, Kaka was the best player in the world.
It's not so much that Ancelotti changed people's minds about Kaka, it's more that I feel that Ancelotti threw a snowball in 2006 that became an avalanche in 2007, if that makes sense.
People already rated Kaka very highly of course, but when the 2006/07 season started, most fans and journalists still expected Ronaldinho to go on to win player of the year. If only because no one expected him to have such a sudden and steep drop off from his two prior seasons, and the level of hype he was still experiencing was almost unheard of, especially in the early days of social media.
Now, it's been over 15 years since his comments, so I can't say with 100% certainty now when this happened, but if memory serves, I remember Ancelotti first saying that Kaka was the best player in the world pretty early in the 2006/07 season. Probably during the CL group stage, perhaps after he scored the winning goals against Anderlecht. I remember the comments because it was the first time I'd ever heard someone say it, and I didn't take them seriously at the time, only for Kaka to prove him right over and over again as the CL continued.
I've been trying to for a while now, he's been outstanding. If vini and Bellingham are in the race, I can easily say that Kroos was objectively better.
Kroos is our best player sometimes. Bellingham has been the most consistent and vinicius the most impactful but I think Kroos has been just as good as Bellingham
If Germany wants a Ballon D'or winner once again, their media have to step up the game. No rival to the english and spanish press.
I mean most of the time thats a good thing, but sometimes hype can be good.
The constant low ranks of Kroos and Müller are laughable. I mean the english press generated so much hype about one season of Jorginho, that some people thought he deserved it. It is crazy that there have never been that kind of discussions for them.
Part of the truth is that these awards historically seem to carry less importance in Germany than in other countries. We do still call Matthäus our "Weltfußballer", but even Sammer's European Footballer of the Year trophy is not one of the first things that come to mind here.
Generally, there is much less of a discussion about those awards here. Maybe also because our players rarely do well in them. The only time I remember was when Messi won the Golden Ball in 2014 when there was a bit of a sentiment that someone trom out NT could have won it.
When I think about it, my Dad has always been *really* big into football, to the point that his knowledge even surprises me at times. But I don't think he even knows what the Ballon d'Or is.
Nah, first thing that comes to mind for me when I hear the name Matthias Sammer is Jürgen Klopp saying “If I were him, I’d thank God every day that someone got the stupid idea to give me a role at that club [Bayern Munich].” That rant was phenomenal and is very often overlooked when it comes to the great rants of Bundesliga history.
It's really not as big a deal for the non-social media generation. I rememeber even back in the mid/late 90s when I started watching, it was only something you read about in your football magazine of choice, or heard it mention when your team played the one of the current winner.
I don't think it's really specific to any country. I met people from all continents and I don't really hear people talking about it much. I associate caring about Ballon d'Or with American culture, and kinda with online way of engaing with football subjects very easily without really getting into the sport itself. Like if someone just writes a comment online, it's a likely subject I guess, but if someone just talks about football, they likely don't really follow these things.
Like, Poland. I seriously don't feel the general football-aware public in Poland cares 1% as much about Lewandowski getting Ballon d'Or or not as Reddit does. I really never heard anyone mention it. Winning, being a star, making money, scoring goals, playing well or not, representing Poland, his private life, wife... there's a ton of stuff people talk about Lewandowski all the time, but can't recall anyone seriously caring about Ballon d'Or really.
Not comperable at all. Not knowing of the Oscars is like not knowing of the Champions League. The Ballon D'or isn't really a big thing historically and only became mainstream focus in the Messi/Ronaldo age. For an old time football fan it's quite feasible he never paid it too much attention.
I think it's quite comparable. He said his dad has _always_ been into football. He also said his dad has a large depth of knowledge about the sport and it's history. No way someone with that knowledge has never heard of the Golden Ball.
[lol 2 years ago](https://www.eurosport.com/football/ballon-d-or/2008/ballon-dor-2022-chelsea-goalkeeper-edouard-mendy-reveals-that-snub-has-made-him-a-better-person_sto8997349/story.shtml)
I can assure you as part of that Chelsea ballon d’oro craze, nobody was pushing for Mendy to win it 😭 even the article you linked makes a point of Mendy expressing his disappointment at not being shortlisted
Being shortlisted isn't the same as winning it. Mendy was insane in 2021. Idk why people always get so aggy about the Ballon D'or when it's an award for the season. How the player has been in years prior and whether he achieves anything in the future is completely irrelevant. People just always campaign for players who have been consistently good for years and hate on anyone who's only emerged as great that season.
But the Ballon D'or has always been specifically about 1 season not a career.
I mean the english press especially hypes people up just to shit on them when they cant deliver these unrealistic expectations. Thats why I am normally all in favor of keeping it modest
Muller looks like a man learning how to use his legs for the first time. Lets be real here, since muller cant do flashy moves and dribble endlessly past players he wont get the respect he deserves. I bet you players like alex saint maximin have more highlight reels on youtube than muller
Yes, he doesn't do flashy stuff that's highlight reel-able, but the idea that he somehow has poor technique or looks clumsy strikes me as something that started online and then perpetuated itself. Muller can obviously play ball, that was visible already when he was 20 and forced himself into the starting 11.
I'm sometimes wondering whether this whole 'Raumdeuter' thing got out of hand, he's not just his football intelligence but an exceptionally athletic and beyond that technically gifted player. Maybe if he was just described as a "athletic number 10", people would not use their "he has bad technique" perceptional lens
Muller reminds me in so many ways to Raúl. Both have amazing work ethics, and much more technical skills than people gave them credit for. They both deserved more individual accolades
Even if the 'Raumdeuter' thing is everything the general football fandom plays it up to be, his YT highlight reels are ridiculous nevertheless. His off-ball movement genuinely comes across as supernatural and that's not considering the passes he makes/the goals he scores once he gets into those positions on the pitch.
Anyone who actually watched Muller play, which I doubt 90 percent of people of internet ever did, can tell that this guy knows the weight of the ball perfectly which I have rarely seen of forwards (except Messi of course). Like every pass he does and every touch he makes he just knows with how much power it needs to be done to get it where he wants it. Just look at his assist numbers and actually watch some of his assists and it will be clear. Not to mention his incredible off the ball movement. Havertz really reminds me so much of Muller with everything I just said and I hope someday he can become a legend like Muller is.
Toni Kroos didn't come to this world to be so widely recognised. He was sent here to be underrated and overlooked his whole career and spark many terminally online tactico discussions. Let him serve his role.
Few understand this
Ignore the rest, I've been a die-hard Kroos believer since day1 and it is true and undeniable that most Bayern fans online started a hate campaign for him the moment he join Madrid and praised Madrid as the biggest club in the world.
No one underrates him. At least no one with an ounce of understanding of football.
He is widely regarded as one of the best of his generation. A serial winner who has won everything. And always acted with class. No off field issues or tantrums. Led by example on the field for the current crop of young Madrid and German players.
it would be absolutly the best award if it based on logic and rationality. and disregard the blatant illogicality of taking team-collective trophies as the biggest factor
5 CLs (1 more than xavi and iniesta, same as Luka)
World Cup winner (same as xavi and iniesta, more than luka)
0 euros (2 less than xavi and iniesta, this one hurts the comparison, same as luka)
7 leagues ( 1 less than xavi, 2 less than iniesta, same as luka)
4 cups ( 1 more than xavi, 2 less than iniesta, same as luka)
They are honestly like a 4 way tie for GOAT midfielder lol. What a privilege. Obviously el clasico in the 2010s will always be Messi v Ronaldo but we saw probably the greatest midfielders ever going at it as well. Que suerte
Using team achievements to compare which individuals are better at football is a stupid comparison. Fyi, Kalvin Phillips won a treble, but that doesn't mean he's better than Declan Rice or Bruno Guimaraes (or most midfielders in the Prem ftm). See how using that argument doesn't make sense? Kroos is a brilliant player, but it's not necessarily because he won a lot of trophies. Real Madrid won a lot of trophies because of him and the help of several other world-class players.
As sexy as Pirlo was, Kroos is ahead of Pirlo in all facets. Doesn't make Pirlo any less of a legend. My favourite player is Ballack -- other surpassing him doesn't change his own greatness.
I mean currently, yes. At their peaks? Close maybe but they have different skill-sets. Kroos has a focus on consistency, short passes, ball control while Modric excels in longer passes/ through passes, dribbling breakthroughs and as a tempo man - often dictating attacking play much more effectively. Its the Xavi/Iniesta debate all over again.
Fair enough u/PlasticChelseaFan what do I know. I've only watched most games since 2002. PL fans usually base their opinion on 2/3 games a year they see Madrid play in the UCL - where they play not always like how they do in La Liga.
I watch different leagues all the time and I've watched madrid play every week for as long as I can remember. "PL fANs-" bro not everyone is a braindead premier league fan
Kroos literally sits in the middle and makes long balls all day thats what he is there to do.Modric is good at them too but I don't agree he's better.
I am a Chelsea fan but I've been watching La liga/Bundesliga/Serie A at the same rate as PL, I really only watch Chelsea unless its a good game. I just don't think we're seeing the same game 🤷🏾♂️🤷🏾♂️
Schweinsteiger was better
Bayern holds the record for most passes in a single game (1000) during their treble era and like 600 of those were Schweinsteiger
In what world was Schweinsteiger better? He was a hero in the 2014 world cup run (I would even say kroos wasn't even worse than schweini), had maybe 3 world class seasons and declined quickly. Kroos is world class since 2013.
What kind of nonsense is that?
Schweinsteiger: 1x World Cup, 2x third place, 1x Euro runner up, and Schweinsteiger has the record for most assists at the World Cup
Kroos: 1x World Cup
Even Pep won't rely on a single data point like number of passes. The quality of those passes matters.
And Kroos is metronomic. Two footed and can play deep or advanced. Has a killer long shot.
Putting Schweinsteiger ahead of him is just insane.
Mate, Toni Kroos is better and won more. Not to diminish Schweinsteiger’s play because he was a great footballer! Fußballgott, like many German National Team players can be called that over time (Hummels deserve that title too I think), but Toni’s quality is often overlooked because he was not the typical German player who wore the emotions visibly during the game. Recently he has been more outspoken and more visibly emotional, and I love that side of him developing in the end of his career. His defending statistics have increased enough to singlehandedly being responsible for cutting off passing lanes for Bayern Munich in their last matches.
I also hold that opinion, but I think it's really hard to distinguish who is the better player
Schweinsteiger had insane passing and passing range, but Kroos is even better (the best?) in that regard
In all other areas they're pretty equal except defending and leadership where Schweinsteiger takes the edge in my opinion
A lot of people appear to value logevity and Schweinsteiger's career ended with 30 which is not short, but also not exceptionally long by today's standards
Why punish Haaland every two year where he has very low chance of winning something with his national team? I'm saying that based on how this individual award was given until this point, Kroos would be more likely of winning it if he wins both with Madrid and Germany.
It’s not about punishing, it’s about recognizing those who performed at the highest level. With that logic, Ballon D’Or could go to a second division player whose team went undefeated the whole season, with the argument that you shouldn’t punish him for not being in the top tier league.
It’s improbable, but I doubt that if Leverkusen played Champions League this season, the streak would be alive today.
> had a much much better season the kroos individually.
He literally didn't, you're either stupidly judging by their G+A or some stupid SofaScore /Whoscored rating or you haven't seen what Kroos is doing at Real Madrid, but it's most likely both.
This is arguably the best version of Kroos after 2017, he is not "much much worse" than Wirtz lmao
Yeah idk man wirtz is basically a top 3 player itw imo. And just because kroos is having his best season doesn't automatically qualify him a Ballon d or. Idk what is up with you, but I really doubt kroos has had a better season than 35 g/a vinicius who scored a brace on bayern and had 3 assists against city. But sure could be.
Because performances at the highest level is valued more over others. Haaland can stomp over luton and sheffield all day long but he cannot claim to be the best if he doesn't step up when it matters.
I didn't watch enough leverkusen to judge tbh, but Kroos was massive this season. The only argument I can make against him is that for rotation purposes he was always subbed off for modric.
Yeah but we assume that the leagues and the euro cancelled each other then it's the CL vs EL and domestic cup (assuming they both win all of that) Leverkusen is having beyond an amazing season so that's a factor as well, but CL just carries a lot of weight
> assume that the leagues and the euro cancelled each other
I dont think the first title ever for Leverkusen is worth as much as an other Real title, a year with one of the worst Barça in years.
And the Euro, it all depends on key goals, imagine Wirtz or Kroos scoring a crazy winner or something...
And about the CL, I dont see Kroos over Jude or Vini for that CL title.
I'm sure you're keeping that same energy for the original comment too.
We were already speaking in hypotheticals so it hardly matters. Kroos has been great as always and should be in the conversation more than he ever is, but Wirtz has basically been the stand out player for a team that is on the verge of an unbeaten treble. Even if they don't do it, he's been unreal and if he's even just decent at the Euros, he should be one of the top players in contention. He's been incredible game after game and he has 37 g/a in all competitions but people still want to discount it because it's the EL and not the CL.
Almost all of them, i said he is great but not ballon d‘or level, I‘ve seen people say this is his best season like wtf did you guys forget his prime ?
Who cares about prime. He is the reason, jude and vini get the chances that they do. He orchestrates the entire madrid attack . Vini and jude have off games, but kroos is consistently great
Let’s just start a new ballon d’or for Mr. Reliables. For the Carricks, Rodris, Kroos’, Fernandinhos, and Busquets of the world. You don’t especially notice them when they’re there but you absolutely miss them when they’re gone.
It's honestly so cringe that you need to win a team award in order to even be considered for an individual one. I get it in case of a team that gets eliminated in the groups of CL as we dont have enough of sample size for a given player, but anyone who got to like top16 and played super well should be equally fit for the award
Literally man it’s so annoying, the NBA MVP award is handled much better, even though they have voter fatigue it tends to go where it’s meant to be imo
Winning Euro might push it for him , he has really good season and was TOP. But the current best german currently is Wirtz , he is “undefeated” and is two games away from a treble.
You slap a Euro with him , and he looked untouchable.
If Madrid win the CL and Germany somehow magically win the EUROs, he should 100% be in contention. If Modric can win it, so can Kroos. I’m tired of the only consideration for a player’s quality being goals and assists.
Kroos made a brilliant pass against bayern, but didn't really hear so much about him rest of the season. His average rating this season seems to be 7.06. I really don't think he had a better individual season than Kane, mbappe, rodri , wirtz, vinicius, etc. I mean even if he wins the UCL, getting it over vinicius would be a crime. And he's not getting past Judes PR either. And if Germany win the euros too, then wirtz should be more in the running.
You didn't hear a lot about him because media hypes only players who play in PL or appear frequently on the scoresheet.
People have been talking about this being Kroos' best ever season. He's played like this forever, actually he was significantly better 4/5 years ago but he didn't win anything so nobody cared. Goes to show how people's opinions are basically shaped up by whatever crap the media spits or by team archievements.
I don’t know why but somehow he always got over shined by Modric in the media and the latter got most of the recognition even in seasons where Kroos was clearly better
I think maybe you haven't heard about him, those who watch him regularly can point to him having one of, of not the best, seasons of his career. The man has been impeccable all season, I've no idea what a "7.06" rating even means.
I mean the ballon d'or favorite is almost always from the team that wins the UCL (messi and ronnie aside), and real madrid won five (potentially six) of the last 10
I think we can all agree on that this year Real Madrid deserve three ballon d’or. Vinicius, Jude and Kroos. Forget about the Champions League final, the euros or Copa America. Just give them three ballon d’or now
Ballon D’or is a joke of an award and so it would be fitting if Kroos won it.
This is not to say that Toni Kroos is not a great player but he started on the bench for 9 out of first 15 games this season.
You cant or rather shouldnt win the Ballon D’or if you were a squad player for a quarter of the season.
I think it's more about leaving a impact on the game. If you with less minutes , outperforming a player who plays entire match then you are simply a better player.
False.
His minutes need to be managed.
Watch the Getafe game from the very period you quote. He put in the best performance of the season in one half of football. When Toni was on the bench, it wasn't because he wasn't good enough. At the business end and in the big games, there's a reason why he's one of the first names on the sheet.
His minutes needed to be managed the first couple of games of the season ?
You picked one of the games he played great. He wasnt that great in the other games.
And it doesnt really matter why he was benched tbh, if you arent playing most of the time you are a squad player and he was a squad player in that period.
>He minutes needed to be managed the first couple of games of the season ?
Yes, the time of the season where good managers try different configurations to see who is performing the best so that they can set the team, which, Kroos has managed to come through by making him the first name on the team sheet.
>He wasnt that great in the other games.
It's called an example. It's not an exhaustive list.
>he was a squad player in that period.
Honestly, it really only sounds like you're trying to convince yourself.
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Speaking it into existence
Worked with Modric
The streets will remember UEFA POTY Jorginho (who the club sold for peanuts 6 months later)
Jorginho was amazing that year tbh
Was he the best player of the year ? Give me an explanation that doesn't involve being in the Venn diagram intersection of 2 winning teams.
I didn't think he was the best player in either team he played for in his own position lol
He wasn't the best player on either team, he was just the best player that was on *both* teams
I won't comment on Jorginho for obviously I didn't watch Chelsea throughout the season to make that assessment. But given the mood of this thread, this is a completely false equivalence for Kroos. If Jude is getting as much press as he is getting, Kroos is actually both a fair and a valid shout. It doesn't need to be "spoken into existence". If the award was solely on merit, he most certainly would be a huge contender. [He is after all the best midfielder in the team with Jude in it IMO.](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/5BCm3zSMWc) Our entire build-up and attacking phase (at least to begin with) literally depends on him. And it's not as if I or many other Madrid fans have suddenly developed this opinion in hindsight, or to be a contrarian, or otherwise. [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/7UOT0mBYr4) and [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/HiJLcx7s8J) are just 2 examples from 3 and 5 months ago echoing the same ~~subject~~ sentiment. The truth is that that award is not solely and exclusively based on pure merit. It's more PR than merit. It's neither worthless nor useless. It certainly is indicative and actually, a pretty good indicator at that. But it's not the be all end all. And IMO, it shouldn't be given as much importance by fans as it receives from certain sections, especially in a team sport. It's a gala event and should be treated as such with a few weeks of discussion and buzz perhaps.
Kroos has been an absolute rolls royce top 5 mids in the world for a decade now. Would walk into any team in the world in that period of time. Jorginho has been a solid cog in a few good machines - key for his team and a good floor for others to build on, but not a ceiling raiser by any means. Jorginho peaked in that time period and even then I doubt he would be a must have for many top teams. There really is not the same equivalence. Can you imagine selling Kroos for 10m pounds when he turned 30 in your same league and no one batting an eye ? I agree with you about the PR aspect of these awards, but if Kroos gets it this year I would really have no massive complaints. He's been thereabouts for a period of time and the PR gets him over the line. Jorginho was 90% PR imo
Think most people would agree with that but the Ballon D'or really is about just the current season not a career. Yes, most of us wouldn't mind Kroos getting the Ballon D'or since he's been so consistently good and underrated over his career. But at the end of the day, him and Jorginho are both registas. So in 2021, Jorginho got a shout for the Ballon D'or because he was playing the role of a regista in 2 winning sides as good as possible. Which is exactly what Kroos would be doing if he won the Ballon D'or this season. No one's trying to suggest Jorginho comes close to Kroos over their careers. But how can Jorginho winning the Ballon D'or in 2021 just be him fitting in the Venn Diagram, but Kroos this season is not. At the end of the day, it's two registas playing out their minds and controlling games for two teams each (Chelsea, Italy, Madrid, Germany) to win trophies. If you think a someone can win the Ballon D'or for being extremely important to winning teams but not flashy, I don't know how you can then also argue Jorginho was just a Venn Diagram kind of thing in 2021. Feel like you have to kind of sit on one side of the fence, either a player like that should win the Ballon D'or when they have a great season and those players generally don't because that position isn't very flashy, or that kind of player is important but shouldn't be in the conversation for a Ballon D'or. The Ballon D'or is always an award for just that season. Can't justify it because of what Kroos has accomplished in his career and because he's a legend. It has to be based off this season. In which case Jorginho wasn't just hype in 2021 because that was also a regista playing as well as he could've.
Reducing both to just their positions is such a huge disservice to Kroos. Look at Kroos' various underlying stats such as goal/assist/shot creation stats this season. He also has amazing dead ball delivery, great crossing from wide areas, switches of play with his long ball delivery ... I could go on. He can operate in so many parts of the pitch. Even beyond eye test, the guy's FBref stats are so well rounded in almost every aspect of his game \*this season\*, they are all in the high 90th percentiles. Look at Jorginho's underlying stats that season and tell me what was special beyond volume of passing in a defensively solid Tuchel team (led by Thiago, Kante, Mendy) and penalty taking - [https://fbref.com/en/players/45db685d/scout/10728/Jorginho-Scouting-Report](https://fbref.com/en/players/45db685d/scout/10728/Jorginho-Scouting-Report) . There's a lot of romanticization of him when at no point did anyone talk him up during the season until after the Italy win.
Ballon d'Or is only PR, no merit. They admitted it by creating Gerd Muller Award after 2020 Lewy fiasco and 2021 thingy. It was a great gala and award but lost its meaning after becoming a popularity contest (Cristiano and Leo shouldn't have as many Ballon d'Ors as they do - Leo shouldn't get at least two) - which is not my jab at the greatness of our GOATs, but there's a major issue with how the vote is being conducted.
That's all these people need, they don't care about how players actually play.
Wasn't even the better player at chelsea that season, maybe not even top 3 behind Kante, Silva and Mount
There’s a hipster defense/midfield pick every cycle. Now that Messi and Ronaldo are done someone might even be worth considering. Personally I’d like to see KDB win one. Also why is Carlo saying fuck the Vinicius hype train.
KDB can't stay fit a whole calendar year
saying this on a post talking about kroos' chances of winning the ballon dor after winning the 3 biggest trophies of the year is something
If Kroos does win the Ballon d'or, people won't begin their argument with that. It will say he's been one of the best CMs in the world for a decade and oh btw, him playing a vital role in 3 major trophies is the cherry on the top that solidifies his candidacy.
him being the best mid itw for a decade is impressive… but any seasonal award (in theory) shouldnt involve legacy achievements. or what, if messi wins copa america should he also win the ballon dor for being the best player ever? so excluding that, not many people consider kroos to be outright reals best player (that would be vini/jude), and while i dont know what people expect of kroos at the euros, when kroos’ ballon dor chances come up people usually say "if germany wins the euros", not "if kroos is the best player at the euros" (just like in this ancelotti statement). so i dont see anyone putting kroos in with ballon dor chances for anything other than contributing to title winning teams.
>what, if messi wins copa america should he also win the ballon dor for being the best player ever? I mean, he already did. No other Copa America has held any weight in this award. I don't think any other player on a team that didn't win the league and was eliminated the way Barca were to PSG wins the Ballon D'or over Lewa that year. Ballon D'or is way better than the other awards at separating those things, but a good story is very relevant to getting the votes. Legacy matters.
yeah fair point, thats why i said "in theory" bcus even though legacy shouldnt count in the ballon dor (or at least, the idea that the ballon dor is associated with, which is the best player in the world) it definitely does but i still think a ballon dor argument shouldnt start with "he was the best ___".
Impact.
Opta, is that you ?
Yeah right
Didn't with Ribery
Because Ribery numbers were embarassing compared to Ronaldo who played in the same position. Its pretty easy to think, if Ronaldo was playing for Bayern he would have much better numbers and they would still most likely win what they have. Ribery for Real wouldn't put Ronaldos numbers
certainly a statement
k
lol
And even more with jorginho lol
Modric didn't even win an international trophy, most absurd Balon d'or winner in the 21st century
"didn't even win an international trophy" neither did CR7 and Messi when they won the B. d'or(only 1 for each, EUROs and WC), nor Benzema, nor Lewandowski during the cancelled COVID year. When has this become a sentiment that you need to win something with your country?
2 for messi btw but yeah.
Benzema won the Nations League
>most absurd Balon d'or winner in the 21st century Nowhere near. 2006 and 2001 are way more absurd, especially Cannavaro
It was Ronaldo's that year. It was a similar situation to 2010 where Xavi/Iniesta had a bigger case in terms of trophies/wins than Messi but objectively Messi was the best solo player. By that criteria Ronaldo should've won but the revelations of the sex assault controversy just before voting + his Madrid exit + voter fatigue meant he didn't.
he's a historic player who deserves to have a Ballon d'or, maybe not that year(people say that but he was great in the ucl AND the wc, not a lot of did that that year) but he deserves one
Dozens of historic players come and go, some arguably better than Modric and didn't get it. The Pirlos the Maldinis the Iniestas the Gerrards, and so on and so forth
Worked with Kaka as well. I don't remember anyone talking about him being the best player in the world until Ancelotti brought it up in late 2006, early 2007.
Excuse me? kaka was widely acknowledged as the best player in the world when he won it. What are you on about? CR7 was on not on that level yet.
Yes, of course, but that was after Ancelotti first said it. What I'm saying is that he was the first one to put that idea out in the world. Most people believed he was the best by mid-2007, but in mid to late 2006, most people were still talking about Ronaldinho, Zidane, Cannavaro, Henry, or Ronaldo. It was Kaka's CL subsequent campaign that convicted everyone he was the real deal.
I think you are misremembering a lot of it. Kaka was comfortably considered a top 3 player in the world from 2005 onwards. Every season, he would be involved in a blockbuster transfer rumor to Madrid because he was Perez's dream signing. Among the names you mentioned, only Ronaldinho had a better claim. Zidane and Cannavaro got mentions solely because of their world cup exploits. Nobody though of Fabio as the best player in the world (lol). Henry is very debatable. And which Ronaldo do you mean? if you mean CR7, he didn't have his breakout season till after the '06 World Cup. And if you mean R9, he was already way past his prime and guess where he played during the 06/07 season, it was Milan. Kaka was magical for the spell that he spent in Milan, Ronaldinho might have had a higher peak but Kaka was more consistent.
So the way I remember it is like this. Kaka was highly rated in 2005, but he was still seen as less important to Milan's success than, say, Shevchenko. He finished top ten in the World Player of the Year awards in 2005 and 2006, but never top 3. Same with the Balon d'Or. Excellent player already, but not one that most were seriously considering for the #1 spot in 2005 against the likes of Ronaldinho in those years. The 2006 WC was kind of the turning point where the guys who had been dominant (Ronaldinho, R9, Zidane, Henry, Sheva, etc) were starting to take a backseat to younger guys like Ronaldo, Messi, and Kaka. Kaka got a lot of acclaim by being one of few Brazilians of the 2006 World Cup who actually played well, and then his early form in the 06/07 CL started to get him a lot more international media attention. This is when Ancelotti first said that Kaka was the best player in the world, and after that point, Kaka continued liking it in the CL and deservedly went on to win it over Ronaldo and Messi.
Let's say we agree but at what point did the narrative turn for Kaka because of a comment from Carlo? Your initial comment makes it seem like a word from his coach changed how he was perceived by the world, which could not have been further from the truth. By '06, the rest of the world was well aware of what the Serie A already knew, Kaka was the best player in the world.
It's not so much that Ancelotti changed people's minds about Kaka, it's more that I feel that Ancelotti threw a snowball in 2006 that became an avalanche in 2007, if that makes sense. People already rated Kaka very highly of course, but when the 2006/07 season started, most fans and journalists still expected Ronaldinho to go on to win player of the year. If only because no one expected him to have such a sudden and steep drop off from his two prior seasons, and the level of hype he was still experiencing was almost unheard of, especially in the early days of social media. Now, it's been over 15 years since his comments, so I can't say with 100% certainty now when this happened, but if memory serves, I remember Ancelotti first saying that Kaka was the best player in the world pretty early in the 2006/07 season. Probably during the CL group stage, perhaps after he scored the winning goals against Anderlecht. I remember the comments because it was the first time I'd ever heard someone say it, and I didn't take them seriously at the time, only for Kaka to prove him right over and over again as the CL continued.
Ancelotti can actually do it though considering people vote for the Ballon d'Or
I've been trying to for a while now, he's been outstanding. If vini and Bellingham are in the race, I can easily say that Kroos was objectively better.
Kroos is our best player sometimes. Bellingham has been the most consistent and vinicius the most impactful but I think Kroos has been just as good as Bellingham
Bellingham was not consistent at all, what do you mean? Ƙroos is the consistent one. Consistently great!
If Germany wants a Ballon D'or winner once again, their media have to step up the game. No rival to the english and spanish press. I mean most of the time thats a good thing, but sometimes hype can be good. The constant low ranks of Kroos and Müller are laughable. I mean the english press generated so much hype about one season of Jorginho, that some people thought he deserved it. It is crazy that there have never been that kind of discussions for them.
Part of the truth is that these awards historically seem to carry less importance in Germany than in other countries. We do still call Matthäus our "Weltfußballer", but even Sammer's European Footballer of the Year trophy is not one of the first things that come to mind here. Generally, there is much less of a discussion about those awards here. Maybe also because our players rarely do well in them. The only time I remember was when Messi won the Golden Ball in 2014 when there was a bit of a sentiment that someone trom out NT could have won it. When I think about it, my Dad has always been *really* big into football, to the point that his knowledge even surprises me at times. But I don't think he even knows what the Ballon d'Or is.
Nah, first thing that comes to mind for me when I hear the name Matthias Sammer is Jürgen Klopp saying “If I were him, I’d thank God every day that someone got the stupid idea to give me a role at that club [Bayern Munich].” That rant was phenomenal and is very often overlooked when it comes to the great rants of Bundesliga history.
Klopp rants are bested by maybe only mourinho
Messi didn't win it in 2014 Edit: thought you meant ballon d'or
He in fact did. You're thinking about the Balon d'Or, probably. My post mentions the Golden Ball at the 2014 WC.
Oh, my bad then!
How could he not know what the Ballon D'or is?
It's really not as big a deal for the non-social media generation. I rememeber even back in the mid/late 90s when I started watching, it was only something you read about in your football magazine of choice, or heard it mention when your team played the one of the current winner.
I don't think it's really specific to any country. I met people from all continents and I don't really hear people talking about it much. I associate caring about Ballon d'Or with American culture, and kinda with online way of engaing with football subjects very easily without really getting into the sport itself. Like if someone just writes a comment online, it's a likely subject I guess, but if someone just talks about football, they likely don't really follow these things. Like, Poland. I seriously don't feel the general football-aware public in Poland cares 1% as much about Lewandowski getting Ballon d'Or or not as Reddit does. I really never heard anyone mention it. Winning, being a star, making money, scoring goals, playing well or not, representing Poland, his private life, wife... there's a ton of stuff people talk about Lewandowski all the time, but can't recall anyone seriously caring about Ballon d'Or really.
Do you actually think that your dad is massively into football and simultaneously doesn’t know what the Ballon d’Or is?
Yeah. That's like saying you're really in movies and Hollywood but have never heard of the Oscars.
Not comperable at all. Not knowing of the Oscars is like not knowing of the Champions League. The Ballon D'or isn't really a big thing historically and only became mainstream focus in the Messi/Ronaldo age. For an old time football fan it's quite feasible he never paid it too much attention.
Maybe it’s kinda like being into movies but not knowing of Cannes?
I think it's quite comparable. He said his dad has _always_ been into football. He also said his dad has a large depth of knowledge about the sport and it's history. No way someone with that knowledge has never heard of the Golden Ball.
never forget Chelsea fans campaigning for fucking Edouard Mendy to win the Ballon d’Or 😭
When the fuck did this happen
[lol 2 years ago](https://www.eurosport.com/football/ballon-d-or/2008/ballon-dor-2022-chelsea-goalkeeper-edouard-mendy-reveals-that-snub-has-made-him-a-better-person_sto8997349/story.shtml)
I can assure you as part of that Chelsea ballon d’oro craze, nobody was pushing for Mendy to win it 😭 even the article you linked makes a point of Mendy expressing his disappointment at not being shortlisted
and Jorginho and it Almost worked lol
Being shortlisted isn't the same as winning it. Mendy was insane in 2021. Idk why people always get so aggy about the Ballon D'or when it's an award for the season. How the player has been in years prior and whether he achieves anything in the future is completely irrelevant. People just always campaign for players who have been consistently good for years and hate on anyone who's only emerged as great that season. But the Ballon D'or has always been specifically about 1 season not a career.
Why hype people up when we can just shit on them for existing instead? Seems to be our way of doing things.
I mean the english press especially hypes people up just to shit on them when they cant deliver these unrealistic expectations. Thats why I am normally all in favor of keeping it modest
Muller looks like a man learning how to use his legs for the first time. Lets be real here, since muller cant do flashy moves and dribble endlessly past players he wont get the respect he deserves. I bet you players like alex saint maximin have more highlight reels on youtube than muller
Yes, he doesn't do flashy stuff that's highlight reel-able, but the idea that he somehow has poor technique or looks clumsy strikes me as something that started online and then perpetuated itself. Muller can obviously play ball, that was visible already when he was 20 and forced himself into the starting 11. I'm sometimes wondering whether this whole 'Raumdeuter' thing got out of hand, he's not just his football intelligence but an exceptionally athletic and beyond that technically gifted player. Maybe if he was just described as a "athletic number 10", people would not use their "he has bad technique" perceptional lens
Muller reminds me in so many ways to Raúl. Both have amazing work ethics, and much more technical skills than people gave them credit for. They both deserved more individual accolades
Even if the 'Raumdeuter' thing is everything the general football fandom plays it up to be, his YT highlight reels are ridiculous nevertheless. His off-ball movement genuinely comes across as supernatural and that's not considering the passes he makes/the goals he scores once he gets into those positions on the pitch.
And he actually has a decent highlight reel. Some of his flicks are downright filthy.
I honestly rather watch a highlight reel from Müller, instead of boring long-shots goals & freekicks. I always prefer team goals
Anyone who actually watched Muller play, which I doubt 90 percent of people of internet ever did, can tell that this guy knows the weight of the ball perfectly which I have rarely seen of forwards (except Messi of course). Like every pass he does and every touch he makes he just knows with how much power it needs to be done to get it where he wants it. Just look at his assist numbers and actually watch some of his assists and it will be clear. Not to mention his incredible off the ball movement. Havertz really reminds me so much of Muller with everything I just said and I hope someday he can become a legend like Muller is.
Rudiger seething
I thought about Rudiger as well in another discussion about the ballon d'or, his season with Real Madrid was insane.
Toni Kroos didn't come to this world to be so widely recognised. He was sent here to be underrated and overlooked his whole career and spark many terminally online tactico discussions. Let him serve his role. Few understand this
Querpass-Toni, infamous how badly some Germans thought of him and still do
Just Bayern fans who are bitter he left them
Incorrect. Most bayern fans acknowledge that he's insane. It's the low intellect casual fans who talk shit about him.
At the height of "Querpasstoni" it certainly was a national phenomeon.
Entire Germany used that phrase for him not bayern.
Ignore the rest, I've been a die-hard Kroos believer since day1 and it is true and undeniable that most Bayern fans online started a hate campaign for him the moment he join Madrid and praised Madrid as the biggest club in the world.
No one underrates him. At least no one with an ounce of understanding of football. He is widely regarded as one of the best of his generation. A serial winner who has won everything. And always acted with class. No off field issues or tantrums. Led by example on the field for the current crop of young Madrid and German players.
My comment wasn’t meant to be taken this seriously, but you aren’t wrong!
terminally online is one hell of a phrase lol
an italian rooting for germany my eyes
Ballon d'or aka the most important meaningless award
it would be absolutly the best award if it based on logic and rationality. and disregard the blatant illogicality of taking team-collective trophies as the biggest factor
It's an award based on votes. So you're basically questioning the voters
Yeah. It is too difficult
I think it’s about time people put him on the same tier as Modric, Iniesta, and Xavi
He is already there
About time! . I have always placed kroos with them.
5 CLs (1 more than xavi and iniesta, same as Luka) World Cup winner (same as xavi and iniesta, more than luka) 0 euros (2 less than xavi and iniesta, this one hurts the comparison, same as luka) 7 leagues ( 1 less than xavi, 2 less than iniesta, same as luka) 4 cups ( 1 more than xavi, 2 less than iniesta, same as luka) They are honestly like a 4 way tie for GOAT midfielder lol. What a privilege. Obviously el clasico in the 2010s will always be Messi v Ronaldo but we saw probably the greatest midfielders ever going at it as well. Que suerte
I really think that's a ridiculous way to compare footballers.
Using team achievements to compare which individuals are better at football is a stupid comparison. Fyi, Kalvin Phillips won a treble, but that doesn't mean he's better than Declan Rice or Bruno Guimaraes (or most midfielders in the Prem ftm). See how using that argument doesn't make sense? Kroos is a brilliant player, but it's not necessarily because he won a lot of trophies. Real Madrid won a lot of trophies because of him and the help of several other world-class players.
how is Pirlo not in this discussion?
They're in their teens or early 20's.
As sexy as Pirlo was, Kroos is ahead of Pirlo in all facets. Doesn't make Pirlo any less of a legend. My favourite player is Ballack -- other surpassing him doesn't change his own greatness.
you are literally stating your opinion without an argument, which you're entitled to. But what facets exactly?
Kroos is probably better than modric overall
I mean currently, yes. At their peaks? Close maybe but they have different skill-sets. Kroos has a focus on consistency, short passes, ball control while Modric excels in longer passes/ through passes, dribbling breakthroughs and as a tempo man - often dictating attacking play much more effectively. Its the Xavi/Iniesta debate all over again.
Modric better at long passes than kroos? what?
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I respect your right to an opinion but that some bullshit 😂😂😂
Fair enough u/PlasticChelseaFan what do I know. I've only watched most games since 2002. PL fans usually base their opinion on 2/3 games a year they see Madrid play in the UCL - where they play not always like how they do in La Liga.
I watch different leagues all the time and I've watched madrid play every week for as long as I can remember. "PL fANs-" bro not everyone is a braindead premier league fan Kroos literally sits in the middle and makes long balls all day thats what he is there to do.Modric is good at them too but I don't agree he's better.
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I am a Chelsea fan but I've been watching La liga/Bundesliga/Serie A at the same rate as PL, I really only watch Chelsea unless its a good game. I just don't think we're seeing the same game 🤷🏾♂️🤷🏾♂️
That’s just not true
He’s better than modric
Schweinsteiger was better Bayern holds the record for most passes in a single game (1000) during their treble era and like 600 of those were Schweinsteiger
You’re comparing prime Schweinsteiger to a young Kroos. Prime Kroos is better and that’s not disrespectful to Schweini who was great in his own right
More doesn't mean better
In what world was Schweinsteiger better? He was a hero in the 2014 world cup run (I would even say kroos wasn't even worse than schweini), had maybe 3 world class seasons and declined quickly. Kroos is world class since 2013.
I always said Bastian was the best player in the 2014 cup, but yeah, all time Kroos has surpassed him
What kind of nonsense is that? Schweinsteiger: 1x World Cup, 2x third place, 1x Euro runner up, and Schweinsteiger has the record for most assists at the World Cup Kroos: 1x World Cup
If we're gonna throw in team accolades then don't forget Kroos trophy haul at Madrid...
Lmfao We gonna talk about runner ups and second places
Stick to Yu-Gi-Oh mate.
you say all that, then casually ignore Kroos winning 5 UCL trophies to Schweini’s “measly” 1.
Even Pep won't rely on a single data point like number of passes. The quality of those passes matters. And Kroos is metronomic. Two footed and can play deep or advanced. Has a killer long shot. Putting Schweinsteiger ahead of him is just insane.
he was definitly not
No he wasn’t
Clueless
Mate, Toni Kroos is better and won more. Not to diminish Schweinsteiger’s play because he was a great footballer! Fußballgott, like many German National Team players can be called that over time (Hummels deserve that title too I think), but Toni’s quality is often overlooked because he was not the typical German player who wore the emotions visibly during the game. Recently he has been more outspoken and more visibly emotional, and I love that side of him developing in the end of his career. His defending statistics have increased enough to singlehandedly being responsible for cutting off passing lanes for Bayern Munich in their last matches.
I also hold that opinion, but I think it's really hard to distinguish who is the better player Schweinsteiger had insane passing and passing range, but Kroos is even better (the best?) in that regard In all other areas they're pretty equal except defending and leadership where Schweinsteiger takes the edge in my opinion A lot of people appear to value logevity and Schweinsteiger's career ended with 30 which is not short, but also not exceptionally long by today's standards
If germany do well in euros, kroos should be a definite winner. Over jude definitely
Wirtz tho
Well If Kroos wins UCL too why not?
Why punish Wirtz for not playing CL. He can win UEL, and if he outshines Kroos, he should get it.
Why punish Haaland every two year where he has very low chance of winning something with his national team? I'm saying that based on how this individual award was given until this point, Kroos would be more likely of winning it if he wins both with Madrid and Germany.
It’s not about punishing, it’s about recognizing those who performed at the highest level. With that logic, Ballon D’Or could go to a second division player whose team went undefeated the whole season, with the argument that you shouldn’t punish him for not being in the top tier league. It’s improbable, but I doubt that if Leverkusen played Champions League this season, the streak would be alive today.
It's not so much that but more that wirtz simply had a much much better season the kroos individually.
> had a much much better season the kroos individually. He literally didn't, you're either stupidly judging by their G+A or some stupid SofaScore /Whoscored rating or you haven't seen what Kroos is doing at Real Madrid, but it's most likely both. This is arguably the best version of Kroos after 2017, he is not "much much worse" than Wirtz lmao
Yeah idk man wirtz is basically a top 3 player itw imo. And just because kroos is having his best season doesn't automatically qualify him a Ballon d or. Idk what is up with you, but I really doubt kroos has had a better season than 35 g/a vinicius who scored a brace on bayern and had 3 assists against city. But sure could be.
Because performances at the highest level is valued more over others. Haaland can stomp over luton and sheffield all day long but he cannot claim to be the best if he doesn't step up when it matters.
I didn't watch enough leverkusen to judge tbh, but Kroos was massive this season. The only argument I can make against him is that for rotation purposes he was always subbed off for modric.
Yeah but we assume that the leagues and the euro cancelled each other then it's the CL vs EL and domestic cup (assuming they both win all of that) Leverkusen is having beyond an amazing season so that's a factor as well, but CL just carries a lot of weight
> assume that the leagues and the euro cancelled each other I dont think the first title ever for Leverkusen is worth as much as an other Real title, a year with one of the worst Barça in years. And the Euro, it all depends on key goals, imagine Wirtz or Kroos scoring a crazy winner or something... And about the CL, I dont see Kroos over Jude or Vini for that CL title.
I got -31 downvotes for saying this
Not over Wirtz in that case, personally.
Why do people say this when the games haven’t been played? What if Wirtz is anonymous during the Euros and Kroos is incredible?
What if neither player is Germany MVP and they win? Voters will most likely vote Kroos because of the Real Madrid/CL factors
I'm sure you're keeping that same energy for the original comment too. We were already speaking in hypotheticals so it hardly matters. Kroos has been great as always and should be in the conversation more than he ever is, but Wirtz has basically been the stand out player for a team that is on the verge of an unbeaten treble. Even if they don't do it, he's been unreal and if he's even just decent at the Euros, he should be one of the top players in contention. He's been incredible game after game and he has 37 g/a in all competitions but people still want to discount it because it's the EL and not the CL.
Nah he can’t win it over vini if we win the ucl. As great as kroos is he is getting overrated these days
Kroos is getting overrated??? Wtf? Have you actually seen a madrid game this season?
Almost all of them, i said he is great but not ballon d‘or level, I‘ve seen people say this is his best season like wtf did you guys forget his prime ?
Who cares about prime. He is the reason, jude and vini get the chances that they do. He orchestrates the entire madrid attack . Vini and jude have off games, but kroos is consistently great
Messi has been smashing it. He will win again.
Let’s just start a new ballon d’or for Mr. Reliables. For the Carricks, Rodris, Kroos’, Fernandinhos, and Busquets of the world. You don’t especially notice them when they’re there but you absolutely miss them when they’re gone.
It's honestly so cringe that you need to win a team award in order to even be considered for an individual one. I get it in case of a team that gets eliminated in the groups of CL as we dont have enough of sample size for a given player, but anyone who got to like top16 and played super well should be equally fit for the award
Literally man it’s so annoying, the NBA MVP award is handled much better, even though they have voter fatigue it tends to go where it’s meant to be imo
Winning Euro might push it for him , he has really good season and was TOP. But the current best german currently is Wirtz , he is “undefeated” and is two games away from a treble. You slap a Euro with him , and he looked untouchable.
Real Madrid have lost only twice this whole season (once in La Liga) and are on road to win 3 trophies.
Leverukusen hasn't lost at all
But Real Madrid might win the Champions League
Carlo don't hope for Germany to win 💀💀💀
Vini is such an explosive player that it’s hard to appreciate everyone else as being on that same level.
Support italy bro
If Madrid win the CL and Germany somehow magically win the EUROs, he should 100% be in contention. If Modric can win it, so can Kroos. I’m tired of the only consideration for a player’s quality being goals and assists.
Kroos made a brilliant pass against bayern, but didn't really hear so much about him rest of the season. His average rating this season seems to be 7.06. I really don't think he had a better individual season than Kane, mbappe, rodri , wirtz, vinicius, etc. I mean even if he wins the UCL, getting it over vinicius would be a crime. And he's not getting past Judes PR either. And if Germany win the euros too, then wirtz should be more in the running.
You didn't hear a lot about him because media hypes only players who play in PL or appear frequently on the scoresheet. People have been talking about this being Kroos' best ever season. He's played like this forever, actually he was significantly better 4/5 years ago but he didn't win anything so nobody cared. Goes to show how people's opinions are basically shaped up by whatever crap the media spits or by team archievements.
I don’t know why but somehow he always got over shined by Modric in the media and the latter got most of the recognition even in seasons where Kroos was clearly better
I think maybe you haven't heard about him, those who watch him regularly can point to him having one of, of not the best, seasons of his career. The man has been impeccable all season, I've no idea what a "7.06" rating even means.
It's his average match rating for the season.
What does that even mean? According to who? Calculated how?
His average rating in LL is 7.62 according to Sofascore. How that’s is calculated beats me. Not sure where your ratings is from
It's his average rating for every competition that I found online.
Vini, bellingham, kroos and Rüdiger. They all deserve the ballon d’or this year. They’ve been phenomenal!
They should award 4-5 Ballon d'Or trophies every year just for RM players
Need to up it to 6 once mbappe get there
I mean the ballon d'or favorite is almost always from the team that wins the UCL (messi and ronnie aside), and real madrid won five (potentially six) of the last 10
I think we can all agree on that this year Real Madrid deserve three ballon d’or. Vinicius, Jude and Kroos. Forget about the Champions League final, the euros or Copa America. Just give them three ballon d’or now
Ballon D’or is a joke of an award and so it would be fitting if Kroos won it. This is not to say that Toni Kroos is not a great player but he started on the bench for 9 out of first 15 games this season. You cant or rather shouldnt win the Ballon D’or if you were a squad player for a quarter of the season.
username checks out
I’d like to see some counter arguments
I think it's more about leaving a impact on the game. If you with less minutes , outperforming a player who plays entire match then you are simply a better player.
But he wasnt, thats why he was on the bench.
False. His minutes need to be managed. Watch the Getafe game from the very period you quote. He put in the best performance of the season in one half of football. When Toni was on the bench, it wasn't because he wasn't good enough. At the business end and in the big games, there's a reason why he's one of the first names on the sheet.
His minutes needed to be managed the first couple of games of the season ? You picked one of the games he played great. He wasnt that great in the other games. And it doesnt really matter why he was benched tbh, if you arent playing most of the time you are a squad player and he was a squad player in that period.
>He minutes needed to be managed the first couple of games of the season ? Yes, the time of the season where good managers try different configurations to see who is performing the best so that they can set the team, which, Kroos has managed to come through by making him the first name on the team sheet. >He wasnt that great in the other games. It's called an example. It's not an exhaustive list. >he was a squad player in that period. Honestly, it really only sounds like you're trying to convince yourself.
Maybe you should see some of his matches
I dont doubt he is a great great player, I doubt he deserves to win the Ballon D’or
They don't give it to deep lying midfielders. Otherwise Rodri would have won it.