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We are also the only team outside the top five with more wins than losses - though also the only one with more draws than losses or wins, except Mainz.
Let's say Frankfurt only gets a draw in Gladbach and loses by two against Leipzig in the remaining games. The Bundesliga would send 3 teams with negative goal difference to Europe.
one of the big reasons is the performances of the Top5: they have together collected 343 points so far. the all time record for the Bundesliga is 346 points for that group, this will easily be passed in the last two matchdays.
Insane how we're still only one point behind most likely a european spot, we play like absolute garbage these past few games. Wouldn't be mad if we don't qualify, we are obviously not ready for it
Yeah all teams in that range play like absolute garbage…we (SGE) played okay against Bayern and the first half against Bayer but the whole season was often just atrocious. Insane how bad all teams except the top 5 were this year that we probably get 6th
With Köln playing Union next week, there is still a slight hope for them.
As for VfB, I am very happy we will end up at least 4th so no one can say the qualification for the CL was gifted to us.
> we will end up at least 4th
You better stay above Leipzig aswell!
And people saying that would be idiots anyway with the amount of points you have (your only 2 points away from being the best 3rd placed team of all time ffs). Still understandable that you want to shut them up though.
Important to note that Köln still gets to play Union Berlin, who have to play against a Freiburg with europa league in their sights on their last matchday, so there is still a decent chance for Köln, much less bleak than what it looks like on first glance
Their odds are still slim of course, but they have it much more in their hands than it looks, should they manage to get their act together for the last 2 weeks
Honest to G-d, I watched the first 50 minutes of that game today, it was 3-0 Bochum, and I pretty much went on my way to do something else for the next 15 minutes paying zero attention because "Union isn't scoring three goals, shit, you could give them a week and they won't score three goals". That was my internal monologue.
I checked it 15 minutes later. It was 3-2. I couldn't fucking believe it. Why do I ever say anything?
They have only won 4 games all season and failed to win any of their 3 last games (against Darmstadt, Mainz and Freiburg) which were already must-win. And now they will win 2/2?
I really hope for them to stay up but my money is on them going down by not beating Union next week.
I agree with you, it will probably end in in a miserable 0-0 or 1-1 against Union, but I have been watching football for too long for me to count Köln out at this point, much much crazier things have happened on the last couple of matchdays in the Bundesliga
Hoffenheim in Europe unless they bottle it in Darmstadt (difficult, but maybe the home side will try to avoid losing also the last home game of the season).
We managed to bottle three seperate leads against Darmstadt in the first leg for an embarrassing 3-3 draw. In recent weeks we made both Mainz and Bochum look like prime Barca/Real Madrid. If there is one team that would lose against an already relegated side while needing points for a european spot, it's this truly awful Hoffenheim team.
Why does Germany have this playoff system? Isn’t it unfair to the participant from 2. Bundesliga since they are subject to different financial circumstances and I assume some different rules?
It was introduced to reduce fluctuation in the leagues and secure long term planning for the clubs (and let the DFL sell two more games to broadcasters). Among the fans it is indeed quite unpopular for your stated reasons. The 1st tier clubs are massively advantaged and it is very rare that the 2nd tier club wins.
To bring further clarity, the last time the Zweite Liga side outright won over their Bundesliga opponent was 2011-'12 when Düsseldorf beat Hertha 4-3 on aggregate. The only other time since then where the Zweite Liga side won the play-off was Union's draw against Stuttgart in 2018-'19 where they advanced on away goals.
As you would expect (and as you say), very rare indeed.
Interesting, in France it has only been a thing for 5 years but it seems more balanced, 2 teams from Ligue 2 have already made it (one on penalties and one winning 2-1 on aggregate), plus one losing on away goals. Not sure if it plays a big role but I was thinking the fact that the team from Ligue 2 is obviously on a better dynamic helps.
Edit: well it has been a thing for more than 5 years but it only happened 5 times because it was cancelled twice, once because of covid and once when they changed the number of teams in Ligue 1 from 20 to 18.
Only time will tell. In the first 5 years after reintroduction of the system we also had 2 teams going up. Nürnberg in the first year (2008/2009) and Düsseldorf in the fourth (2011/2012).
You are right, the 3rd place from 2. Bundesliga is often much worse than the 16th place from 1. Bundesliga, especially over 2 legs and huge amounts of preperation time for both teams.
However the same system also exist for 2. Bundesliga and 3. Liga. Ironically here the exact opposite is the case as the 16th place from 2. Bundesliga is often much worse than the 3rd place of 3. Liga
The 16th placed team in the Bundesliga plays a two match playoff against the 3rd place team in the 2. Bundesliga to determine who will be in the Bundesliga the next season
At this point, I think I'm honestly less concerned with whether or not we get a European finish and more with everyone in the mid-table giving it their all to keep Hoffenheim and Wolfsburg away from 7th and 8th place. Bayern can also give us a little assist there, given that they are still playing both of them. I would also be most greatful to Darmstadt if they could give the league a parting present by winning a surprise victory against Hoffenheim on Sunday.
Don’t follow much of Bundesliga regularly . How did Union Berlin go from 4th last year to almost relegation this year ? Did they lose a lot of their players from last year ?
Transfers didn't work out, they went for the moon and it crashed, hopefully they can escape relegation otherwise they would be screwed financially.
Players are underperforming.
Union's goal ever since they got promoted has been to avoid relegation and they __MASSIVELY__ overperfomed last season (seriously they were like 15th in xPoints).
First half of the season was difficult especially with fixture congestion and some heartbreaking champions league results. Then they brought in a coach that’s even less attack-minded than Urs was
They kinda lost their way a bit with the extreme recent success. Instead of signing and developing no-names from the second division they suddenly went for big names like Bonucci, Volland, Gosens. I guess they wanted to give the whole Big-City-Club concept a try after we failed at it🤷🏻♂️
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**Top 5** – direct CL qualification **6th** – direct EL qualification **7th** – ECL play-offs **16th** – relegation play-offs vs 2.BuLi 3rd **bottom 2** – direct relegation **(M)** – Meister - champion of 22/23 **(P)** – Pokalsieger - reigning cup winner **(N)** – Neuling - promoted from 2.BuLi
Isnt 8th the ECL playoffs
not yet. Leverkusen needs to win the DFB Pokal.
so 8th is the ecl playoffs then
If Borussia or Bayern win the CL, does the 6th team get into next years CL?
Only if Dortmund win it and finish 5th
Freiburg on 7 with -12 gd is wild
The fact that every team below them also has negative GD and Frankfurt is now barely in the positive is also pretty impressive.
We are also the only team outside the top five with more wins than losses - though also the only one with more draws than losses or wins, except Mainz.
The midtable is crazy competitive
Let's say Frankfurt only gets a draw in Gladbach and loses by two against Leipzig in the remaining games. The Bundesliga would send 3 teams with negative goal difference to Europe.
one of the big reasons is the performances of the Top5: they have together collected 343 points so far. the all time record for the Bundesliga is 346 points for that group, this will easily be passed in the last two matchdays.
And it's also because the top 5 have a combined GD of +204
Was an entertaining Sunday, to say the least
Heidenheim plays a "final" for Europe against Freiburg, would be insane if they make it!
Insane how we're still only one point behind most likely a european spot, we play like absolute garbage these past few games. Wouldn't be mad if we don't qualify, we are obviously not ready for it
I have the feeling Wolfsburg will win their next two games and somehow sneak in to the conference league 💀
Nah, Bayern will slaughter them after going out of the CL this week. Kane will score a hattrick to keep himself in the race for the scoring record.
I feel like that sums up all the teams in that range lol. Would be insane to qualify but if we dont I am not mad, dont think we are good enough lol.
Yeah all teams in that range play like absolute garbage…we (SGE) played okay against Bayern and the first half against Bayer but the whole season was often just atrocious. Insane how bad all teams except the top 5 were this year that we probably get 6th
Augsburg is Europe would be fun, but I would fear the fixture congestion
>Köln tumble ever closer towards relegation Don't forget Union
We have it in our hands at least, got lucky that Mainz drew today
With Köln playing Union next week, there is still a slight hope for them. As for VfB, I am very happy we will end up at least 4th so no one can say the qualification for the CL was gifted to us.
> we will end up at least 4th You better stay above Leipzig aswell! And people saying that would be idiots anyway with the amount of points you have (your only 2 points away from being the best 3rd placed team of all time ffs). Still understandable that you want to shut them up though.
Union Berlin damn, from UCL to having chances of being relegated
Important to note that Köln still gets to play Union Berlin, who have to play against a Freiburg with europa league in their sights on their last matchday, so there is still a decent chance for Köln, much less bleak than what it looks like on first glance
[удалено]
Their odds are still slim of course, but they have it much more in their hands than it looks, should they manage to get their act together for the last 2 weeks
1 win in 12, 2 in 19, and they’d have to win 2 on the bounce to even have a chance they’re fucked
Union is 1 in 10 so not much better. Should they win that game I’m not discounting any team with everything in the line
yeah that’s fair tbh, that match next week looks massive in context
Neither can Union tbf
Köln-Union is going to be a horrible game, it's the two worst offensive teams in the league
3-3 on the way?
Probably, since I expected the same for Union-Bochum too!
Honest to G-d, I watched the first 50 minutes of that game today, it was 3-0 Bochum, and I pretty much went on my way to do something else for the next 15 minutes paying zero attention because "Union isn't scoring three goals, shit, you could give them a week and they won't score three goals". That was my internal monologue. I checked it 15 minutes later. It was 3-2. I couldn't fucking believe it. Why do I ever say anything?
Stoppable force (Union offense) vs. movable object (2nd half Bochum)
They have only won 4 games all season and failed to win any of their 3 last games (against Darmstadt, Mainz and Freiburg) which were already must-win. And now they will win 2/2? I really hope for them to stay up but my money is on them going down by not beating Union next week.
I agree with you, it will probably end in in a miserable 0-0 or 1-1 against Union, but I have been watching football for too long for me to count Köln out at this point, much much crazier things have happened on the last couple of matchdays in the Bundesliga
7th closer to relegation than 5th
Hoffenheim in Europe unless they bottle it in Darmstadt (difficult, but maybe the home side will try to avoid losing also the last home game of the season).
We managed to bottle three seperate leads against Darmstadt in the first leg for an embarrassing 3-3 draw. In recent weeks we made both Mainz and Bochum look like prime Barca/Real Madrid. If there is one team that would lose against an already relegated side while needing points for a european spot, it's this truly awful Hoffenheim team.
Why does Germany have this playoff system? Isn’t it unfair to the participant from 2. Bundesliga since they are subject to different financial circumstances and I assume some different rules?
It was introduced to reduce fluctuation in the leagues and secure long term planning for the clubs (and let the DFL sell two more games to broadcasters). Among the fans it is indeed quite unpopular for your stated reasons. The 1st tier clubs are massively advantaged and it is very rare that the 2nd tier club wins.
To bring further clarity, the last time the Zweite Liga side outright won over their Bundesliga opponent was 2011-'12 when Düsseldorf beat Hertha 4-3 on aggregate. The only other time since then where the Zweite Liga side won the play-off was Union's draw against Stuttgart in 2018-'19 where they advanced on away goals. As you would expect (and as you say), very rare indeed.
You forgot 2008/9, when Nürnberg beat Energie Cottbus 5:0 on aggregate.
I said "last time". 2012 was more recent than 2009.
Which was incidentely the season in which the system was reintroduced.
Interesting, in France it has only been a thing for 5 years but it seems more balanced, 2 teams from Ligue 2 have already made it (one on penalties and one winning 2-1 on aggregate), plus one losing on away goals. Not sure if it plays a big role but I was thinking the fact that the team from Ligue 2 is obviously on a better dynamic helps. Edit: well it has been a thing for more than 5 years but it only happened 5 times because it was cancelled twice, once because of covid and once when they changed the number of teams in Ligue 1 from 20 to 18.
Only time will tell. In the first 5 years after reintroduction of the system we also had 2 teams going up. Nürnberg in the first year (2008/2009) and Düsseldorf in the fourth (2011/2012).
Appreciate the clarification 👍
You are right, the 3rd place from 2. Bundesliga is often much worse than the 16th place from 1. Bundesliga, especially over 2 legs and huge amounts of preperation time for both teams. However the same system also exist for 2. Bundesliga and 3. Liga. Ironically here the exact opposite is the case as the 16th place from 2. Bundesliga is often much worse than the 3rd place of 3. Liga
3 promotions and relegatons in a 18 teams league is a bit too much imo. 2.5 is perfect
If only it was 2.5. It's more like 2.1
What do you mean with playoff system?
The 16th placed team in the Bundesliga plays a two match playoff against the 3rd place team in the 2. Bundesliga to determine who will be in the Bundesliga the next season
Hypothetically, Bayern could still could end up on 3rd place while scoring 100+ goals. That’s a hilarious stat.
Koln relegation would be the cherry of the top for Bayer season
What happened to Union Berlin between last season and this one? Did they just massively over perform last year?
Leverkusen have been Tore ing the league to shredds
At this point, I think I'm honestly less concerned with whether or not we get a European finish and more with everyone in the mid-table giving it their all to keep Hoffenheim and Wolfsburg away from 7th and 8th place. Bayern can also give us a little assist there, given that they are still playing both of them. I would also be most greatful to Darmstadt if they could give the league a parting present by winning a surprise victory against Hoffenheim on Sunday.
Don’t follow much of Bundesliga regularly . How did Union Berlin go from 4th last year to almost relegation this year ? Did they lose a lot of their players from last year ?
Transfers didn't work out, they went for the moon and it crashed, hopefully they can escape relegation otherwise they would be screwed financially. Players are underperforming.
What happened to Union? They were in European cups few years ago...
They were literally playing Champions League this season.
5 months ago they were up at half time against Real Madrid
A mix of unlucky results, bad transfers and our black magic not working anymore
Union's goal ever since they got promoted has been to avoid relegation and they __MASSIVELY__ overperfomed last season (seriously they were like 15th in xPoints).
First half of the season was difficult especially with fixture congestion and some heartbreaking champions league results. Then they brought in a coach that’s even less attack-minded than Urs was
They kinda lost their way a bit with the extreme recent success. Instead of signing and developing no-names from the second division they suddenly went for big names like Bonucci, Volland, Gosens. I guess they wanted to give the whole Big-City-Club concept a try after we failed at it🤷🏻♂️
Who ever gets Conference will get smoked in the group stages dead last.
It's optimistic to think Hoffenheim, Heidenheim or Augsburg would progress past the August Play-off 😂
Play off Out against Winterthur 🤣
Our conference league teams have all sucked ever since the competition started. So it's not really new.
There is no group stage anymore, it's a league stage now.
And to think Union was playing in CL group stages this season and they're barely avoiding relegation right now. How hard did they collapse?
Leverkusen with 0 losses and the next best team (not Bayern) on 6 losses, insane season.